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Message |
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| 09:38 |
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| 09:49 |
mrkubax10 |
After converting my world to MineClone2 from MineClone5 every barrel because unknown node. Is there a way to easily fix that? For example by changing node ID or something |
| 09:50 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> register an alias? |
| 09:51 |
mrkubax10 |
yeah that might work |
| 09:51 |
mrkubax10 |
s/because unknown node/became unknown node/ |
| 10:01 |
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jonadab |
Yeah, alias is likely the way to go there. |
| 12:56 |
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| 19:35 |
cheapie |
I might have to look into how hard it would be to get finer control over power/braking effects, along with more frequent speed sensing (more often than once per meter), on these carts... |
| 19:36 |
cheapie |
I rewrote my cart speed controller Luacontroller program thing so it auto-tunes now - it's a /bit/ more stable than my previous best effort at tuning it by hand, but still nowhere near where I'd like to see it. |
| 19:38 |
cheapie |
It can run with a setpoint of 2m/s and not stall now, so I guess that's better than the old one tended to go - although when set for that it's still varying as low as 0.8m/s and as high as 2.5. |
| 19:39 |
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| 19:40 |
muurkha |
are you PID-controlling minetest carts? |
| 19:40 |
* cheapie |
nods |
| 19:41 |
Desour |
how do you get the cart's speed? is it a digilines cart? |
| 19:41 |
cheapie |
Desour: Digilines rail from https://cheapiesystems.com/git/mesecons_carts/ |
| 19:43 |
Desour |
oh, cool! |
| 19:45 |
cheapie |
muurkha: It gets even sillier, at one point during development I had it graphing a bunch of stuff too. |
| 19:50 |
muurkha |
that's useful |
| 19:51 |
muurkha |
how else would you debug PID controller autotuning |
| 19:51 |
* cheapie |
returns to adjusting the modem-sound-thing |
| 19:59 |
cheapie |
Here, a fun Luacontroller program to try out (the latter thing, not the cart one) - expects a digilines noteblock on the channel "nb", then give it a mesecons pulse on any pin and enjoy: https://gist.github.com/cheapie/600fad39e15d6e022fce3c2d4fc2b9df |
| 20:00 |
cheapie |
Alternate version, for those who could afford decent modems back then: https://gist.github.com/cheapie/e185b3002bf0ab5c2c471d30585dfd19 |
| 20:01 |
Bombo |
i got a prob with animalia: whenever i join the server it crashes: ERROR[Main]: ServerError: AsyncErr: Lua: Runtime error from mod 'animalia' in callback luaentity_Step(): ...e/minetest/.minetest/mods/animalia/api/behaviors.lua:534: bad argument #2 to 'random' (interval is empty) |
| 20:01 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2 -- Burned wood |
| 20:02 |
Bombo |
the code is: local width = ceil(self.width or 1) * 2 and 534: x = pos.x + random(width, -width) |
| 20:02 |
Bombo |
width seems to be 2 |
| 20:03 |
cheapie |
Is your copy up-to-date? I'm not seeing that at line 534, it's a few lines earlier. |
| 20:04 |
Bombo |
well i added debug ;) |
| 20:04 |
Bombo |
...lines |
| 20:04 |
Desour |
random(width, -width) is causing this. the first arg has to be smaller than the 2nd |
| 20:04 |
Desour |
(I've seen this exact bug somewhere recently) |
| 20:05 |
cheapie |
Is that one of those works-in-LuaJIT-but-not-plain-Lua things? I just tried math.random(10,5) here and got 7 (and no crash). |
| 20:06 |
cheapie |
Yeah, just tried it in plain Lua and it crashed. |
| 20:07 |
muurkha |
heh |
| 20:09 |
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| 20:11 |
Bombo |
hmmm so maybe we could change it to random(-width, width) |
| 20:11 |
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| 20:12 |
cheapie |
Probably. Someone already reported the issue at https://github.com/ElCeejo/animalia/issues/60 - I added a comment with what I found there, and I'm sure if you can fix it then a PR would most likely be welcomed. |
| 20:13 |
cheapie |
This probably does fix it but without any explanation as to /what/ it's fixing (in terms of symptoms): https://github.com/ElCeejo/animalia/pull/55 |
| 20:19 |
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| 20:23 |
Bombo |
seems to work, thx for finding it ;) |
| 20:26 |
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| 21:06 |
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| 21:45 |
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| 21:45 |
independent56 |
I have a mod idea but it might be more effort then it's worth https://rentry.co/bptpc |
| 21:46 |
independent56 |
I still think it'd be cool to have Lisp in Minetest though. It opens the door to other languages, and when you least expect it - PHP! |
| 21:48 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> The biggest practical example of "lisp in MT" I've seen is the Loria game, which is written in Fennel, a LISP dialect that compiles to Lua. The lisp part isn't exactly "in" minetest, of course, but it does prove that at least there's a potential audience for that sort of thing. |
| 21:49 |
independent56 |
Oh, intresting. I'd like that |
| 21:50 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> I wrote the core of a lisp interpreter in like 20 lines of JS once, which executed LISP from JS array objects (you could use JSON as the serial format). It's not too hard to build an interpreter for a basic LISP-like language, and then you just inject more and more components and such. |
| 21:50 |
independent56 |
I've always like Lisp as a "pure" language; it has such a simple syntax that anyone can learn it in 15 minutes (especially scheme). The language then relies on the functions, which are then way easier to learn and implement |
| 21:50 |
independent56 |
Exactly; it's a way of making me look smart and like a good mod developer when i'm just a teen with no idea how to program at all |
| 21:50 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> The elegance of it is what makes it so powerful, and so utterly intractable to the average human. |
| 21:52 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> LISP is like the String Theory of programming. A single, simple, elegant core, and then 500 pages of mind-boggling abstract math, and then the natural order of the universe just arises on its own. |
| 21:53 |
independent56 |
Watch out with the preaching: https://xkcd.com/224/ |
| 21:53 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> you forgot https://xkcd.com/297/ too |
| 21:54 |
independent56 |
THis is so true because i'm 17 and have no idea what i'm doing |
| 21:54 |
independent56 |
I first touched the language when i was 15 |
| 21:54 |
independent56 |
beautiful and my 8 and 9 keys still have those polish marks |
| 22:06 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> if you want to get into Lisp, I recommend reading Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs |
| 22:07 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> That's the like "seminal" work on LISP, right? |
| 22:08 |
independent56 |
I did try reading it but fell asleep a quarter of the way through |
| 22:08 |
independent56 |
It was a fun read though |
| 22:08 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> I get the abstact concept but I've never really gotten very far into actually making practical working software in LISP. There's so much real-world shit you have to deal with an it kind of spoils the elegance before you even get a chance to enjoy it. |
| 22:08 |
independent56 |
which is why my mod is designed as an abstraction layer; it makes it far easier to make procedural code because it's harder to just write the function body in the code because the function body means you need to define new functions |
| 22:12 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Warr1024: I suppose so. As an educative work it has had a large impact. It is definitely one of the legendary books (K&R, Dragon book (on compilers), SICP is the "Wizard" book). |
| 22:13 |
independent56 |
i love these nicknames |
| 22:13 |
independent56 |
This channel might as well be called the "independent56 emits stupid ideas channel" |
| 22:13 |
independent56 |
/j |
| 22:14 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> It is a major bummer how Lisp is even more niche than Lua: https://survey.stackoverflow.co/2023/#technology-most-popular-technologies |
| 22:16 |
independent56 |
How is that a bummer? Generally, smaller communities make warmer communities. |
| 22:16 |
independent56 |
Compare the BTS community and the Explain XKCD community |
| 22:17 |
MTDiscord |
<greenxenith> How am I supposed to compare a Korean boy band to a web comic commentary |
| 22:17 |
independent56 |
because they're both internet communities of varying sizes |
| 22:18 |
independent56 |
Okay, compare the mineclone and minecraft communities |
| 22:18 |
independent56 |
Ok wait mineclone is a bad example, maybe just the minetest modding comunity |
| 22:19 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> The infamous "Blub Paradox" (a.k.a. "aikido for startups") article points out that underappreciated technology can become a competitive advantage. If your competitors are mocking your tech choices because they don't understand, good, it'll give you an edge 😏 |
| 22:20 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> (That article has been widely panned for its mocking tone but I haven't seen any good refutation of the idea that the Blub Paradox is real, and I run into it all the time in real life) |
| 22:23 |
independent56 |
The bulb paradox: having a shorter life means you burn brighter |
| 22:24 |
independent56 |
I just don't want to use the wrong niche language, you see. Damn! i should have learnt COBOL for that thick wallet, not nerdy perl! |
| 22:25 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> Learning a legacy-only language like COBOL would be good for job security, both for you and for your therapist. |
| 22:25 |
independent56 |
yes |
| 22:25 |
independent56 |
which is why i also know Javascript |
| 22:26 |
independent56 |
And i basically know Java |
| 22:26 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> They don't make therapists strong enough for Java or Javascript. |
| 22:26 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Warr1024: The problems start when all that "power" you get at a language level gets you nowhere because there are no powerful libraries or APIs for you to use. |
| 22:26 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Heck, I've had to reinvent sorted sets in Lua. |
| 22:26 |
independent56 |
Wait, what does it mean to "know" a language? To have made? To have learnt to bodge? |
| 22:27 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> Part of the reason why there are no poweful APIs to use is that LISP is powerful enough that a lot of things we'd use libraries for elsewhere are considered "trivial" in LISP and nobody bothers distributing the solutions. The dark side to that of course is that it may be trivial to implement but not always trivial to understand and that's not very helpful to people who don't already have their own repertoire of solutions. |
| 22:27 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> You actually see a lot of that "trivialization" issue in Lua, as evidenced by all the wheel-reinventing we do. |
| 22:28 |
MTDiscord |
<benrob0329> Big Brain: Buy your therapist a gym membership so that they're always strong enough to handle your shit. |
| 22:28 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> i56: yeah, once you know a few languages, you start to realize that you might actually "know" a lot more. |
| 22:29 |
independent56 |
Because, i mean, i can probably stumble my way in any language i come across |
| 22:29 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> Like, I've worked in so many scheme derivatives by now that I might "know" scheme already, and adapting to it is just as much syntactic detail shit as I deal with switching between JS and Lua sometimes. |
| 22:29 |
independent56 |
I did get a Java-based game of life going without much java know |
| 22:29 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> obligatory Alan Perlis quote: |
| 22:29 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> "A language that doesn't affect the way you think about programming, is not worth knowing." |
| 22:29 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> http://www.cs.yale.edu/homes/perlis-alan/quotes.html |
| 22:29 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> Once you reach the "I could stumble through anything at this point" then yeah, you've reached the next level at which you just stop trying to keep lists. |
| 22:30 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> oh nice i've reached the next level |
| 22:30 |
independent56 |
me too! |
| 22:30 |
independent56 |
I feel so achieved. This is the true state of being a programmer; thinking you're crap one hour and god the other. There is little in-between |
| 22:30 |
MTDiscord |
<benrob0329> I stumble through everything anyways, so whats the difference? /s |
| 22:31 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> If you ever need a good pick-me-up, you can ask me. If you need a good okay-put-me-back-down-again, ask basically any compiler. |
| 22:31 |
* cheapie |
waves, mid-stumbling-through this elevator mod |
| 22:31 |
cheapie |
It crashes slightly less often now! |
| 22:31 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> I need to say though: "Any language" means "any language that's reasonably much like the languages I know". |
| 22:32 |
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| 22:32 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> For example, Rust seems to introduce plenty of new concepts and enforces them strictly, and I think I'd have a harder time "stumbling through" it than stumbling through, say, Kotlin, which I can pretty much see as syntactic sugar. |
| 22:32 |
independent56 |
rust is a weird language |
| 22:33 |
independent56 |
It's one of the fiew i can't bodge to some kind of wroking |
| 22:33 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> It is very strict. |
| 22:33 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Rust tries to move as many errors as reasonably possible from runtime to compiletime from what I understand. |
| 22:34 |
MTDiscord |
<benrob0329> I think the most complicated thing I've written in Rust was a Brainfuck interpreter using an enum array for storing the program once it was read |
| 22:34 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> You could probably "stumble through" rust if you had strong enough examples in the same codebase. Like, you could fix a bug if there are examples of correctly working versions of something parallel elsewhere, and the problems weren't too deeply dependent on rustisms. |
| 22:34 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> You'd also probably end up just spending a lot of time learning the language in the process anyway. |
| 22:35 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> "Stumble through" doesn't necessarily NOT mean "read a few stack overflows, and maybe a wikipedia article or two" |
| 22:35 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Yeah. But Rust does stick out in that it seems to have a different learning curve compared to many other languages. |
| 22:36 |
MTDiscord |
<benrob0329> Some parts of Rust are very intuitive and easy to pick up, but in my experience it's the subtle details that get you |
| 22:36 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> It is probably pretty unique in its static analysis standards. It isn't just "another C-like", "another OOP shit", "another scripting language". |
| 22:41 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> It needs its own "something-oriented programming" paradigm name. Maybe like ownership-oriented or something, what with the way it manages control of memory. |
| 22:45 |
independent56 |
I've got the perfect one: alien-syntax-oriented-programmming |
| 22:52 |
independent56 |
Is there a way for servers to connect to each other and do trading and cross-border travel? Can servers connect into a trade bloc yet? |
| 22:52 |
independent56 |
I could make a mod for that ;) |
| 23:01 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> You can use the HTTP API to create a hub for servers to coordinate mod-specific logic, sure. You can't easily send players to other servers though. |
| 23:10 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> Use the minetest proxy |
| 23:26 |
MTDiscord |
<mistere_123> The question is, will it remain up-to-date, so is it a reliable thing to build a server on? |
| 23:40 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> 🤷 |
