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MTDiscord |
<warr1024> The hiding on android is not to appease users, it's to appease the app store's rules. Who THOSE are meant to appease is probably an interesting debate, but sort of outside of our area of concern. |
| 00:59 |
muurkha |
ugh |
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| 07:35 |
independent56 |
WIth HTM, everything needed can be put into one file; JS, CSS, even images and videos through base64. Is this theoretically possible in Minetest? |
| 07:35 |
independent56 |
And would it be more efficent to just have a single init.lua? |
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independent56 |
Imagine if i made a script compressing server mods and that was actually the cause of the lag on most servers |
| 07:45 |
independent56 |
As in lag -> compression -> less lag |
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| 09:47 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> "Bundling" (shoving all Lua files into a single Lua file) is definitely possible but not advisable. It won't matter for performance except for a negligible impact on load time. Code generally is responsible for only a negligible portion of the size of mods or games; most of the space is taken by media (images, sounds, models, etc.). If you really wanted to compress code, you'd probably minify and/or dictionary-encode as well as |
| 09:47 |
MTDiscord |
run-length-encode it (esp. for a language like lua with long keywords and often lots of whitespace). |
| 09:49 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> There is another effect: Files typically take up disk pages. Thus an unpacked game may be somewhat larger if it is divided into many very small files; on Linux, each of the files typically takes up at least 4kB. This typically isn't of much concern either though. |
| 09:50 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> In general, generic compression (zipping) gets rid of most of the overhead - sometimes even better than compressed of formats like PNG internally do! Since you will typically distribute zips (which is where size matters, as it may go over weak mobile networks etc.), you mostly don't have to worry. |
| 09:52 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> "Uncompressed" files definitely won't be a source of lag. Once everything is loaded it mostly doesn't matter at all whether the files were compressed/bundled or not. Compressed files may even take longer to load due to decompression. |
| 09:54 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> It definitely isn't "the cause of lag on most servers"; there is no indication of that. The main cause of lag is just inefficient mod code or efficient mod code that has to do a lot of work (mapgen, ABMs). Client-side rendering lag comes from inefficient client code (such as every particle and entity getting its own drawcall or all HUD elements being insertionsorted every frame). |
| 09:57 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> One thing worth mentioning though are tilemaps. Minetest games typically use small textures (say, 16²), so you could usually fit thousands of them into a larger 1024² texture. This helps with reducing PNG overhead (esp. in the case of a shared palette). But more importantly, it allows you to generate larger mapblock meshes using the same texture; say for example one texture slot gives you the textures for all nodes. You could then draw |
| 09:57 |
MTDiscord |
that mapblock in a single drawcall rather than one drawcall per material / texture. |
| 09:59 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> This is not trivial to implement however and would need to be done in C++. Using tilesheet.png^[sheet:... in mod code won't affect how Minetest works with the textures at all; the tile will be extracted on the CPU. |
| 10:25 |
MTDiscord |
<braindamage> what client version do i need to connect |
| 10:27 |
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| 14:18 |
jonadab |
Has anyone ever implemented a mod or whatever that provides an easy way to bulk-transfer multiple stacks of items between inventories (player inventory, chest inventory, Unified Inventory bags, etc.)? |
| 14:18 |
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| 14:19 |
jonadab |
Based on the key bindings being set in the client, I'm guessing a server-side mod couldn't easily support something like ctrl-shift-click for that. |
| 14:19 |
jonadab |
But there's got to be a way. |
| 14:19 |
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| 14:19 |
jonadab |
"Multiple stacks" checkbox in the inventory screen or something? |
| 14:20 |
independent56 |
I think there is a quick stack mod |
| 14:20 |
jonadab |
"Quick stack"? I will search for that. |
| 14:20 |
independent56 |
https://content.minetest.net/packages/OgelGames/quickstack/ |
| 14:20 |
independent56 |
no need |
| 14:22 |
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| 14:22 |
jonadab |
Yeah, found it. Hmm, from the description I am not sure it's exactly what I want; but it looks like at least a starting point. |
| 14:22 |
independent |
With HTML, bundling means just one get request; index.html, instead of going "Oh i need mainmenu.png! styles.css! index.html!" boom boom boom. Does this translate to MInetest at all? Would download times be quicker or are browsers and minetest clients too different? |
| 14:22 |
independent |
whoops |
| 14:22 |
jonadab |
I was thinking more in terms of "I want to transfer all 23 stacks of cobblestone from my inventory into this chest, boom." |
| 14:23 |
jonadab |
But yeah, I will look at quickstack and see if it can serve as a starting point. |
| 14:24 |
jonadab |
Oh, good, and it requires (and thus obviously supports) unified inventory. |
| 14:24 |
independent56 |
You could die by advtrains, dropping your items, then use a vaccuum tube, but that's convoluted |
| 14:24 |
jonadab |
I don't want to transfer _all_ my items, just all the ones of a certain type. |
| 14:25 |
jonadab |
Although. |
| 14:25 |
jonadab |
There are times when transferring everything might be desirable too. |
| 14:25 |
jonadab |
Like when digging out a building foundation at surface level, and you get 800 different kinds of debris in your inventory (cobble, dirt, sand, gravel, grass, flowers, trunks, leaves, bushes, ...) |
| 14:26 |
jonadab |
That's not the use case I was thinking of, but hmm. |
| 14:26 |
independent56 |
One technic mod fork has that thing where you have "put all to chest" inventory slo |
| 14:26 |
independent56 |
I think i saw it on TA |
| 14:26 |
independent56 |
https://gitlab.com/tunnelers-abyss/technic |
| 14:26 |
jonadab |
Oh, interesting. |
| 14:27 |
independent56 |
https://gitlab.com/tunnelers-abyss/technic/-/blob/h2mm/technic_chests/common.lua?ref_type=heads#L57 |
| 14:27 |
independent56 |
I'm not sure if it's this code, but it might be |
| 14:30 |
jonadab |
Yeah, I'm going to have to investigate this. |
| 14:31 |
independent56 |
You can go to their server |
| 14:31 |
jonadab |
This is one of those features that would save the player a few seconds each time it's used, but would get used bazillions of times. |
| 14:31 |
jonadab |
Yeah, I might do that, just to investigate the feature. |
| 14:31 |
independent56 |
The admins probbly have more knowledge then me, so direct your questions to them |
| 14:31 |
jonadab |
Also a good thought. |
| 14:34 |
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| 14:52 |
jonadab |
Man, I'd forgotten how much lag advtrains creates. SO glad I no longer regularly play on a server that has that mod. |
| 14:52 |
independent56 |
I'm not sure |
| 14:52 |
independent56 |
Disabling advtrains on my server did little to fix the lag |
| 14:53 |
independent56 |
Maybe it was my tiny computer. |
| 14:54 |
independent56 |
!tell luatic Thank you for your nuanced response on the topic of bundling. Would it have any effect on clients when connected to servers? With HTML, bundling means just one get request; index.html, instead of going "Oh i need mainmenu.png! styles.css! index.html!" boom boom boom. Does this translate to MInetest at all? Would download times be |
| 14:54 |
MinetestBot |
independent56: yeah, sure, whatever |
| 14:54 |
independent56 |
quicker or are browsers and minetest clients too different? |
| 14:54 |
independent56 |
There we go |
| 14:54 |
independent56 |
Wait, that's not the default "first message to tell" message |
| 14:54 |
independent56 |
I think there's a bug in handling long strings |
| 14:54 |
independent56 |
Where do i raise this issue? |
| 14:57 |
rubenwardy |
bundling would probably slow down Minetest as changing any file would result in everything needing to be redownloaded |
| 14:58 |
rubenwardy |
the reason you bundle is to avoid multiple round trips, and download everything as one. Minetest sends a list of files to the client so the client won't need to do multiple rounds of downloads |
| 14:58 |
independent56 |
hmm |
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| 15:46 |
rubenwardy |
!title https://blog.rubenwardy.com/2023/08/16/minetest-ctf-is-10/ |
| 15:46 |
MinetestBot |
rubenwardy: Ten years of Capture The Flag - rubenwardy's blog |
| 15:46 |
rubenwardy |
CTF is 10 today |
| 15:52 |
s20 |
:tada: |
| 16:05 |
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| 16:16 |
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| 16:19 |
independent56 |
Wait, what happened to the server that brought up drama in 2023-04-16? I wasn't in the loop to notice what happened, but now it's (rightly) off the server list. Was it decomissioned? Was it taken off the list? By who? |
| 16:20 |
ROllerozxa |
the furry roleplay server? |
| 16:20 |
independent56 |
Yes, that one |
| 16:20 |
independent56 |
The one that mustn't be named |
| 16:21 |
ROllerozxa |
eh I think it's allowed to talk about it |
| 16:21 |
ROllerozxa |
anyways it was taken down by the owner I think |
| 16:21 |
independent56 |
Taken down down or just hidden from the list? |
| 16:24 |
independent56 |
I'm taking that as a permenent admin-enacted takedown of the server then |
| 16:24 |
ROllerozxa |
the server owner himself took it down |
| 16:25 |
independent56 |
Do you think i should make a "FOSS drama monthly" magazine? |
| 16:26 |
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| 16:26 |
independent56 |
You know, articles like "Freenode is no longer free" or "Final minetest finally makes Minetest angry" |
| 16:27 |
independent56 |
rereading the IRC chat logs from 2023-04-14 to 2023-04-16 made me realise that FOSS drama is too spicy to lose |
| 16:28 |
MTDiscord |
<bastrabun> Wouldn't this have a good chance to spark even more drama? Which is not what MT needs |
| 16:29 |
Ingar |
sell your script to Netflix |
| 16:29 |
independent56 |
How? By drawing public attention to the drama or by poor writing? |
| 16:31 |
MTDiscord |
<bastrabun> Imagine at every birthday party you mention over and over again that my sister got the Superman Action figure I so desperately wanted ; ) |
| 16:32 |
independent56 |
? |
| 16:35 |
MTDiscord |
<bastrabun> The more you reiterate drama, the more people are drawn in. Drama is best solved or left alone/ignored. |
| 16:37 |
independent56 |
I have an idea: undermine propietary software by writing about drama there, leaving FOSS without it |
| 16:38 |
independent56 |
Maybe i do it for Minecraft >: |
| 16:42 |
MTDiscord |
<bla8722> they probably already got a mod for that 😉 |
| 16:43 |
independent56 |
"Google releases app which forces propietary €50/month plugin to go under, users enraged |
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| 17:11 |
MTDiscord |
<bastrabun> How about we keep the world drama-free and try to benefit it in any way we can? |
| 17:13 |
jonadab |
Drama can be good, when it's in its proper place. Which is on the stage. |
| 18:45 |
muurkha |
"drama" is just "people being upset" |
| 18:46 |
muurkha |
people get upset about things sometimes; that's part of the nature of people. sometimes you can solve the problems they're upset about, and sometimes you can calm them without solving the problems, but just ignoring them being upset isn't a great recipe for improving the situation |
| 18:47 |
muurkha |
I think "FOSS Drama Monthly" would probably make the situation worse |
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| 19:33 |
lissobone |
hi |
| 19:33 |
lissobone |
roller do u remember the luigi |
| 19:33 |
lissobone |
the one i mauled with my malicious hands |
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jonadab |
muurkha: To me, the word "drama" (outside the stage context) implies that people are upset _without any actual valid reason_ and are making much ado about nothing, that there's no actual underlying problem to solve. |
| 20:05 |
muurkha |
jonadab: that does seem to often be the implication |
| 20:06 |
muurkha |
but if you strip the subjective judgment out of it, the factual part is that they're upset |
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liceDibrarian |
connected from laptop! |
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