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MinetestBot |
[git] sfan5 -> minetest/minetestmapper: Add cautionary note about sat_mul() e14f27f https://github.com/minetest/minetestmapper/commit/e14f27f41268a11c34299a8b94a380b28c6b71e9 (2023-08-08T12:18:58Z) |
| 12:38 |
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| 12:38 |
Abiblima |
hey |
| 12:39 |
Abiblima |
worlgen is kinda stupid |
| 12:39 |
Abiblima |
mapgen |
| 12:39 |
Abiblima |
a minetest player places only a few hundred nodes in their lifetime as a player |
| 12:40 |
Abiblima |
maybe at most a few thousand |
| 12:40 |
Abiblima |
mapgen spams millions of nodes |
| 12:40 |
Abiblima |
that will mostly never be dug or seen |
| 12:41 |
Abiblima |
its also the no.1 performance drain mapgen |
| 12:41 |
Abiblima |
loading all that pre-gen crap |
| 12:43 |
Abiblima |
could just generate a surface layer mapgen |
| 12:43 |
Abiblima |
as long as you know the seed you can pop it into voxels |
| 12:44 |
Abiblima |
just generate an efficient land level mesh for each mapblock and pop it to voxels when dug, not placed |
| 12:45 |
Abiblima |
either way it makes no sense to create a mapgen that spams nodes that degrade performance beyond that of a player |
| 12:45 |
Abiblima |
who's playing the game, mapgen or the player? |
| 12:45 |
Abiblima |
if it's the player then why is 90% of the game resources given to mapgen? |
| 13:09 |
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| 14:07 |
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| 14:08 |
Blockhead256 |
Abiblima: That sounds okayish for purely heightmap 2D generation but consider caves and overhangs |
| 14:29 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> "a player only places a few hundred nodes in their lifetime" ... "maybe at most a few thousand" ... meanwhile I'm looking at a handful of players who are in the hundreds of thousands and into the millions per server across 3 or 4 servers... |
| 14:38 |
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| 15:07 |
Abiblima |
for a player to have placed over a million nodes in their lifetime is unrealistic |
| 15:08 |
Blockhead256 |
never underestimate what people will do with their time |
| 15:08 |
Abiblima |
hundreds of thousands after years is possible excluding worldedit |
| 15:08 |
Abiblima |
mathematically speaking |
| 15:08 |
Abiblima |
over a million is unlikely |
| 15:08 |
Abiblima |
highly highly unlikely |
| 15:10 |
Blockhead256 |
at 1 node/s, relatively slowly, it only takes 277 hours to place that many nodes |
| 15:10 |
Abiblima |
for example a player would need to place one node every 3.5 seconds for one and a half months |
| 15:11 |
Abiblima |
yeah thats not going to happen |
| 15:11 |
Blockhead256 |
people often log in excessive of 1000 hours on some games |
| 15:11 |
Abiblima |
no one is going to place a node every second for 277 hours straight |
| 15:11 |
Abiblima |
its highly unlikely |
| 15:11 |
Blockhead256 |
10,000 in some MOBAs. They don't do it in one sitting, but they spend multiple hours a day |
| 15:12 |
Abiblima |
im sure bigfoot exists too |
| 15:12 |
Blockhead256 |
Give people a year, they'll do it easily. Many won't even consider that burned out, just a hobby. Especially with a leaderboard. Give people a leaderboard and someone will spend all their free time on it |
| 15:12 |
Abiblima |
no one is placing over a million in a year legitimatly |
| 15:13 |
Blockhead256 |
never underestimate the power of unemployment |
| 15:13 |
Abiblima |
its not even methematically possible |
| 15:13 |
Abiblima |
they'd die |
| 15:14 |
Abiblima |
even after 10 years of playing id be surprised to see a million, but after 10 years its plausibkle |
| 15:14 |
s20 |
~~Let them~~ |
| 15:14 |
Abiblima |
a million in a year just is not possible |
| 15:14 |
Abiblima |
thats one node every 30 seconds |
| 15:14 |
Abiblima |
even if you took breaks and placed one node every second |
| 15:15 |
Abiblima |
you'd still not reach a million by the end of the year and be alive |
| 15:15 |
s20 |
You mean to say Minetest mapgen generation causes...? |
| 15:16 |
Abiblima |
im just saying mapgen eats the most resources to place more blocks than an entire server could ever dig and place |
| 15:16 |
Abiblima |
doesn't make any sense |
| 15:16 |
cosmician |
[Test message - changed name from s20 to cosmician] |
| 15:16 |
Abiblima |
its like the game is playing itself |
| 15:16 |
Abiblima |
and the players are secondary |
| 15:17 |
cosmician |
What do you think can solve it? |
| 15:17 |
Abiblima |
just pre-bake only visible mapblocks |
| 15:17 |
Blockhead256 |
You'd only have to spend an hour each day |
| 15:17 |
Abiblima |
an hour placing a node every second fullstoo? |
| 15:17 |
Abiblima |
most players dont place a node every 5 minutes |
| 15:17 |
s20 |
I don't know, just guessing, but wouldn't prebaking them cause worse gameplay in that moment? |
| 15:17 |
Abiblima |
let alone every second |
| 15:18 |
Blockhead256 |
https://paste.debian.net/1288285/ |
| 15:18 |
Blockhead256 |
It'd be a grind to log an hour on Minetest every day but you could do it |
| 15:18 |
Abiblima |
nah just pop them back to voxels when there is a dig action in the prebaked volume |
| 15:18 |
Abiblima |
atm when you fly around mapgen goes nuts |
| 15:18 |
Abiblima |
filling the db |
| 15:19 |
Abiblima |
for what |
| 15:19 |
Abiblima |
for nothing |
| 15:19 |
Abiblima |
most of those will never be mined |
| 15:20 |
celeron55 |
that idea has come and gone many times, but nobody has made a proof of concept. are you the one to do it? |
| 15:20 |
Blockhead256 |
I'm not understanding you. It's the CPU that gets hammered once and the DB that gets bloated, or it's the CPU gets hammered every time someone travels through an unloaded area. Are you proposing a third way? A baked mesh you say? A mesh that.. needs the CPU to run normal mapgen to mak eit |
| 15:22 |
celeron55 |
one thing is certain: a mapgen that has to come up with a surface and nothing more will be much more boring than one which can do anything. you can't e.g. generate the surface details of a cave entrance without actually generating the cave. you simply don't know how it will end up shaped like |
| 15:23 |
Abiblima |
thats true |
| 15:23 |
celeron55 |
cave entrances will be severely limited. and then, what do you define as the surface at the sea or lakes? |
| 15:23 |
celeron55 |
is it the water surface? the bottom of the ocean? everything in between? |
| 15:23 |
celeron55 |
what about floating islands? |
| 15:24 |
Abiblima |
it gets complicated fast i see your point here |
| 15:24 |
celeron55 |
what if you go underground and spend time there? do you lose all the optimization? is it worth it to optimize at all then? |
| 15:25 |
celeron55 |
it will always be a compromise in some way |
| 15:26 |
Blockhead256 |
I don't know exactly what Skamiz Kazzarch has been doing with mg_tectonic lately, other than looking for approximations and maybe some performance improvements. I wouldn't rule out that there may be approximations of our full-featured mapgens that are adequate for far-off terrain or something like that |
| 15:26 |
celeron55 |
making a mapgen that can provide variable level of detail for quickly generating lots of land for long distance rendering would be useful |
| 15:26 |
celeron55 |
or, well, even better, extending the current ones to do that |
| 15:27 |
Blockhead256 |
especially with advances in training artificial neural networks, maybe one could make a very fast approximation. Or perhaps that's not much better than lower samples of Perlin noise? |
| 15:27 |
Abiblima |
interesting lower resolutions blocks for further distances? |
| 15:27 |
Blockhead256 |
look into the history of "farmesh"es |
| 15:28 |
Abiblima |
https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?t=4047 |
| 15:29 |
celeron55 |
sampling noise more roughly is easy to do and would probably already satisfy the requirements of many players, including me. maybe you don't even have to do biomes at all, just render it in a foggy blue color |
| 15:29 |
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| 15:29 |
celeron55 |
however |
| 15:30 |
celeron55 |
it can get tricky stiching that in with things built by players when they also appear at the distance |
| 15:30 |
Blockhead256 |
Anyway this gets away from the proposal that Abiblima was actually talking about, which is saving space in the database.. |
| 15:30 |
celeron55 |
with some luck, it won't be too jaggy |
| 15:31 |
Blockhead256 |
some kind of interpolation from the high res blocks to the "mipmap" mesh? |
| 15:32 |
Abiblima |
i will lookup posts and git issues/push by Abiblima |
| 15:32 |
Abiblima |
post by ruben wardy |
| 15:32 |
Abiblima |
https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?p=166444#p166444 |
| 15:32 |
celeron55 |
it's not exactly easy to temporarily generate parts of the world and then proceed to throw those away due to the gliches that would be generated. the way trees and stuff work is they can appear on a neighboring mapgen chunk and will be saved there. but then if you remove the generated chunk, you don't know which parts of the neighboring chunk (which may have player modifications on it) is part of that |
| 15:33 |
Abiblima |
farmesh was removed after v5 due to incompat with v6 and bugs" - so there was farmesh at some point for long distance rendering (not space saving) |
| 15:33 |
celeron55 |
again, you can avoid it by dumbing the mapgen down, or by adding some complex earmarking of nodes to belong to a certain mapgen chunk even while not existing in one. but again, you see, it's not so simple |
| 15:34 |
Abiblima |
ill be back in 20-30 mins |
| 15:34 |
Blockhead256 |
reminds me of the latest Mineclone2 release notes mentioning that the size of their artificial structures had to be smaller than in Minecraft to fit inside a mapgen chunk |
| 15:34 |
celeron55 |
the farmesh you're talking about was completely heightmap noise based and awful looking, and didn't use any space |
| 15:34 |
celeron55 |
it was so awful i think less than 1% of players would accept it |
| 15:35 |
celeron55 |
v6 uses 3d noise, so it cannot produce a heightmap |
| 15:35 |
celeron55 |
wait, or was it v5 which used 3d noise |
| 15:36 |
celeron55 |
ah no, i think v6 uses so much brute force carving of landscape features that it cannot produce a heightmap |
| 15:36 |
celeron55 |
i'm fairly sure v5 can't produce a heightmap either |
| 15:37 |
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| 15:37 |
celeron55 |
but that feature of v6 was tuned down at some point as some people didn't like it. it used sort of of huge partially buried caves to make surface features |
| 15:37 |
celeron55 |
-of |
| 15:37 |
Blockhead256 |
hmmm |
| 15:37 |
Blockhead256 |
what mapgen will make it in the C++ next I wonder? |
| 15:38 |
Blockhead256 |
into the master branch I mean |
| 15:38 |
celeron55 |
anyway, none of this is very easy to do in a way that would keep players happy. it's annoying when people assume things are easy or obvious when they aren't |
| 15:38 |
rubenwardy |
please take any posts I made 9 years ago with a huge grain of salt |
| 15:38 |
Blockhead256 |
I would say that should go for just about anybody.. |
| 15:39 |
Blockhead256 |
especially someone well before they became a core dev, of course |
| 15:40 |
Blockhead256 |
Since heightmaps were mentioned, the `heightmap` mapgen object is available to every map generator, right? It's just a convenience/pre-calculation? |
| 15:40 |
Blockhead256 |
.. and not something related to heightmap troubles with farmesh |
| 15:41 |
celeron55 |
well, i'm just as intrigued by that as you. what do the api docs say? |
| 15:42 |
celeron55 |
it says "Returns an array containing the y coordinates of the ground levels of nodes in the most recently generated chunk by the current mapgen." |
| 15:44 |
Blockhead256 |
yeah so my guess is the C++ calculates it, either all the time or just when you ask for the object. It'd probably do it in a much faster way than Lua even if it's post-generation? |
| 15:44 |
celeron55 |
looks like generally it's not noise based, it's probed node by node after the mapgen has generated its thing. but it's up to the mapgen to generate the heightmap, so if it was a simple 2d noise mapgen, it could give its base noise as the heightmap |
| 15:46 |
Blockhead256 |
I'm sure you could make an antagonistic mapgen that makes the heightmap unsuitable. A world of 1-2 node thin slices with air in between, where the air gap varies between layers maybe for more interest. |
| 15:47 |
celeron55 |
i kind of feel i should give a try making an as fast as possible while still kind of interesting mapgen, just to see how it would feel like |
| 15:47 |
Blockhead256 |
then try to place a village on the 'top' of 'surface level' nodes and get some really weird placement, like the village disappears and continues on a lower level |
| 15:47 |
Blockhead256 |
how fast is fractal? |
| 15:48 |
celeron55 |
you don't need to make an antagonistic mapgen to make the heightmap require essentially a brute force operation like now. you just need to use 3d noise |
| 15:48 |
celeron55 |
3d noise makes very interesting results, which is why it's used. and it's essential for caves |
| 15:48 |
Blockhead256 |
I'm not talking about antagonising the algorithm for heightmap, but antagonising mods that depend on notions like "top of heightmap = good placement surface" or something |
| 15:50 |
Blockhead256 |
I feel like all the caves in Minetest feel the same regardless of mapgen. Are they? |
| 15:50 |
celeron55 |
well, it's probably still faster to produce it for mods than to have the mods essentially calculate it themselves. you can probe multiple points in the heightmap to check the ground "quality" |
| 15:50 |
calcul0n_ |
yes, they all use the same cavegen |
| 15:50 |
Blockhead256 |
I feel like there are some missed opportunities for things like a honeycomb or the inside of a bird bone |
| 15:51 |
celeron55 |
there definitely are opportunities there. but you risk stumbling upon having to make performance compromises. 3d noise is expensive |
| 15:52 |
celeron55 |
however if you want to go with predictable fractals or honeycomb structures or something, that would be cheap |
| 15:52 |
Blockhead256 |
so something like a mandelbulb/julia thereof? |
| 15:52 |
celeron55 |
(well, some fractals are expensive also. but i mean, just pick and choose) |
| 15:54 |
Blockhead256 |
one could use a single 3d noise and apply a threshold for air/stone and make an interesting shape. Playable? Maybe. |
| 15:56 |
proller |
what if make shape of terrain on client with using something like raytrace ? |
| 15:56 |
celeron55 |
the way voxel mapgens are made is worth learning for any programmer. it's a serious exercise in advanced pseudorandomness and it could put you into the right mindset even for things like cryptography. i'm not kidding |
| 15:59 |
Blockhead256 |
proller: where does the ray come from, where is it pointed, and what does it reflect off? |
| 16:00 |
proller |
ray from player, no need to reflect, just touch surface and draw something |
| 16:00 |
Blockhead256 |
ok now what algorithm decides what the surface's shape is? |
| 16:00 |
celeron55 |
Blockhead256: that's basically how the caves work, except that they use the absolute value of the result and consider values closer to 0 to be air. it creates caves that kind of resemble the interfaces between soap bubbles, the white parts |
| 16:01 |
celeron55 |
(the bubble parts aren't round though. they are all kinds of shapes) |
| 16:01 |
celeron55 |
(anyway, the insides of the bubbles are stone) |
| 16:03 |
celeron55 |
(and, there's not one 3d noise, but two, which are made to interact with each other, to make it more interesting) |
| 16:03 |
Blockhead256 |
yeah I went and washed my hands so I could visualise it and that makes sense |
| 16:05 |
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Thelie joined #minetest |
| 16:05 |
celeron55 |
anyway, looking at the code, i think we may not be getting our money's worth out of the noise operations. the interaction is just a multiplication. using some kind of interpolated lookup into a curve of some sort could work better, or something else |
| 16:05 |
Blockhead256 |
the fractal mapgen just does mandelbrot set and julia sets right? |
| 16:05 |
proller |
Blockhead256, server can send mapgen params to client, client can run dedicated mapgen with one function has_surface_at(v3) |
| 16:06 |
celeron55 |
src/mapgen/cavegen.cpp is where it's at, if you want to play with it |
| 16:06 |
Blockhead256 |
It would be cool to have fractal flames. I have a library of flames as my desktop backgrounds. Not sure how exactly to turn them into terrain though |
| 16:08 |
Blockhead256 |
proller: Sounds like the occlusion culling of blocks that the server does before sending them to the client, except instead of sending to the everything to the client you would just ask the client to render anything that's visible but not sent as 'different'. |
| 16:08 |
Blockhead256 |
anyway a lot of server operators don't want to send the mapgen parameters, they even ask for ways to hide the seed and keep the noise parameter tweaks to themselves |
| 16:10 |
proller |
its only for very far areas for drawing with very low res |
| 16:10 |
celeron55 |
that is a good point, the noise params can spoil the world |
| 16:10 |
celeron55 |
i don't recall anyone bringing that up ever |
| 16:10 |
proller |
i have some working code with drawing cloud of far surfce points |
| 16:10 |
proller |
with any mapgen |
| 16:11 |
Blockhead256 |
pro tip: If you don't want anybody to be able to replicate your mapgen, give them the real seed as usual but change the seeds of your noise params to be different from default and it should turn out completely different anyway |
| 16:12 |
celeron55 |
the seed offsets of the noise params essentially work like a password salt there |
| 16:13 |
celeron55 |
of course, giving the seed is meaningless then |
| 16:14 |
celeron55 |
you might as well give a random unrelated number |
| 16:14 |
Blockhead256 |
I was actually thinking one should send a random number every time the seed is sent to a client if you really wanted to obscure it. Not really much different from a fake seed, but then you can even get people arguing about what the "real" seed is |
| 16:16 |
Blockhead256 |
"CavesRandomWalk .. is very fast, executing in less than 1ms on average .. on a modern processor" <- this comment ages well only because processors get faster over time |
| 16:19 |
proller |
https://youtu.be/SgwVzX-Czv0 |
| 16:21 |
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s20 joined #minetest |
| 16:21 |
Abiblima |
back |
| 16:21 |
Abiblima |
oh im Abiblama lol |
| 16:23 |
Blockhead256 |
Abiblama: yep that's you :) |
| 16:23 |
Blockhead256 |
proller: very cool. Actually it reminds me of 80s sci-fi, just put it on a night background and make it glow |
| 16:24 |
proller |
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mG_IY17S4_Q |
| 16:25 |
proller |
just draw some mesh from this cloud of points and enjoy full view range on any non lua mapgen |
| 16:28 |
Blockhead256 |
ok, so the "secret" is how has_surface_at(v3) is implemented. Menger sponge is easy to pre-program. For existing mapgens, does it sample the perlin noise? |
| 16:29 |
Abiblima |
wow thats mad bird bones are extended lungs |
| 16:30 |
proller |
Blockhead256, its not a secret, its just call to existent mapgen code |
| 16:31 |
Blockhead256 |
Interesting. Does it take much to calculate? Does this show that saving the nodes to disk is part of what takes so long? |
| 16:35 |
proller |
not much, but need to make many rays, not need to make it every frame, only when you moves to long distances |
| 16:35 |
proller |
its not saving mapgen, just calculates points |
| 16:35 |
Blockhead256 |
it seems like it would use more memory too |
| 16:36 |
Blockhead256 |
understandable that longer view distance does that.. |
| 16:38 |
Abiblima |
why would people want to hide their seed lol is it that bad if someone copied it? |
| 16:39 |
Blockhead256 |
some people are really fragile about people wanting to replicate their server, however noteable or not |
| 16:39 |
Blockhead256 |
it *is* really easy to do with world downloading + seeds + the amount of code that's open source on most Minetest servers |
| 16:40 |
Blockhead256 |
There's no way Minecraft would *ever* build world downloading into the game unlike Minetest |
| 16:40 |
calcul0n_ |
and as said earlier the seeds can spoil the world, ie you can guess where ores or rare items will spawn |
| 16:41 |
MTDiscord |
<bla8722> hiding can make sense for example with mods that use the seed to decide where to spawn stuff |
| 16:41 |
Blockhead256 |
I mean you could just x-ray. There's a million ways to cheat, the only thing stopping you is self control most of the time |
| 16:41 |
proller |
you can use patched client to view all ores and other hidden things |
| 16:41 |
proller |
and server owner can disable sending map params to client if too paranoid |
| 16:42 |
Blockhead256 |
it's only a small problem in PvE/survival if someone ruins their own experience by cheating. In PvP it's kind of important, yeah. |
| 16:42 |
Abiblima |
oo lol yeah know where all the good ores are ag |
| 16:43 |
Abiblima |
teardown |
| 16:43 |
Abiblima |
taredown* |
| 16:43 |
Blockhead256 |
You can world download and zoom around in singleplayer in all cases. See the contents of locked chests, etc. You can use a cheat client, and so on. |
| 16:44 |
Blockhead256 |
the real problem that the average person using the official client has though is that most of us can't stop ourselves from pressing F5 to see our coords all the time |
| 16:44 |
Abiblima |
yeah i guess for your average go stealing the seed is a technique anyone can do |
| 16:44 |
Abiblima |
jo* |
| 16:45 |
Abiblima |
whats wrong with seeing ur coorf? |
| 16:45 |
Abiblima |
voxel games are so doomed |
| 16:46 |
Abiblima |
will we ever get a better voxel engine than teardown |
| 16:46 |
Abiblima |
which is not even that good :( |
| 16:46 |
Blockhead256 |
Most times in multiplayer, when you wanna meet your friend you just tell each other your coords and start walking. Or you use /spawn. Or you just walk towards each others' nameplates. No challenge. |
| 16:47 |
Abiblima |
yeah |
| 16:47 |
Abiblima |
well how else would you meet your friend lol |
| 16:47 |
Blockhead256 |
that's fine if it's just a chatroom. If it's about "realism" then you can see some big problems |
| 16:47 |
Abiblima |
ah yeah |
| 16:47 |
Abiblima |
tbh minetest is just a chatroom |
| 16:47 |
Abiblima |
but users can place and dig on the side |
| 16:47 |
Abiblima |
but its mostly used a chatroom |
| 16:47 |
Blockhead256 |
so accurate... |
| 17:00 |
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| 17:01 |
celeron55 |
it's how most online games end up being, at least creative ones |
| 17:02 |
celeron55 |
some servers are basically literal virtual shopping malls full of bored teenagers |
| 17:03 |
celeron55 |
at least at times |
| 17:07 |
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| 18:26 |
lissobone |
wow celeron |
| 18:27 |
lissobone |
What did I skip??? |
| 18:27 |
lissobone |
Why is celeron55 HIMSELF here??!! |
| 18:28 |
celeron55 |
i'm always lurking. the challenge is to say something interesting enough so that i comment about it |
| 18:28 |
ROllerozxa |
O.O |
| 18:35 |
Abiblima |
he's just slow to respond, still stuck on an old cpu die |
| 18:36 |
Abiblima |
celeron55: why 55? |
| 18:37 |
Abiblima |
see what i mean he's still computing the answer |
| 18:38 |
celeron55 |
it would be 550, but back in the day irc had a maximum nickname length of 9 characters |
| 18:39 |
Abiblima |
why did you like that processor at the time or something? |
| 18:39 |
celeron55 |
imagine that, ROllerozx |
| 18:39 |
Ryzen7200 |
im a better version of you |
| 18:41 |
lissobone |
I have discovered a new hobby: bullwhips. |
| 18:41 |
celeron55 |
i was just a kid and it was the best i could get. my dad could only get me a 200MHz pentium II which wasn't that great |
| 18:41 |
Ryzen2700 |
how old are ya now? |
| 18:42 |
Ryzen2700 |
so you went from pentium 2 to celeron 550? what year was this? |
| 18:42 |
lissobone |
Probably year 55 BC. |
| 18:42 |
Ryzen2700 |
is this before feet pics took over the internet and only fans? |
| 18:42 |
celeron55 |
somewhere in the mid 2000s |
| 18:42 |
Ryzen2700 |
makes sense |
| 18:42 |
Ryzen2700 |
i bet your rich now huh |
| 18:42 |
Ryzen2700 |
finnish, feet pics, only fans |
| 18:43 |
celeron55 |
oh you're not on my onlyfans? |
| 18:43 |
Ryzen2700 |
are you offering a discount on the first month? |
| 18:44 |
celeron55 |
no, i'm not cheap like that |
| 18:44 |
celeron55 |
i've got to respect myself |
| 18:44 |
Ryzen2700 |
h-h-hawt :hotemoji: |
| 18:45 |
Ryzen2700 |
early 2000's habbo hotel and runescape |
| 18:45 |
Ryzen2700 |
neopets and uh gangwars? |
| 18:45 |
Ryzen2700 |
newgrounds :S |
| 18:45 |
celeron55 |
i ran an apache web server on windows 2000s |
| 18:45 |
celeron55 |
-s |
| 18:45 |
celeron55 |
it was wild |
| 18:46 |
Ryzen2700 |
lol wow people claim me/2000 was the best release |
| 18:46 |
Ryzen2700 |
technically ME and 2000 a different releases right? |
| 18:46 |
celeron55 |
me was crap, 2000 was nice |
| 18:46 |
Ryzen2700 |
2000 was the good one then lol, what was wrong with me? |
| 18:47 |
Ryzen2700 |
i used 2000 for a long time until the directx situation forced me to xp |
| 18:47 |
celeron55 |
of course, if you wanted to run dos games 2000 was a bad idea and 98se was the thing |
| 18:47 |
Ryzen2700 |
ah lol |
| 18:47 |
Ryzen2700 |
and now we have dosbox |
| 18:47 |
Ryzen2700 |
when did you quit windows for linux |
| 18:48 |
Ryzen2700 |
and what exactly did u host on that apache webserver |
| 18:49 |
ROllerozxa |
I don't know what I should be surprised by more, the fact IRC nicknames could only be 9 characters long maximum or that c55 got an onlyfans? 😳 |
| 18:49 |
celeron55 |
i'd have to look that up from somewhere |
| 18:49 |
celeron55 |
ROllerozxa: i'll spoil that for you: only one of those is a fact |
| 18:52 |
ROllerozxa |
hmm, well 9 characters *did* seem like an odd amount to limit it at... |
| 18:56 |
proller |
celeron55, maybe its time to merge https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/12142 ? |
| 18:58 |
Ryzen2700 |
how old does the mt version have to be |
| 18:58 |
Ryzen2700 |
i've never found a server too old to connect to? |
| 19:01 |
Ryzen2700 |
i really liked the vehicles in teardown |
| 19:12 |
Pexin |
Ryzen2700: before winXP, there was the win95+ line and the NT line. "millenium edition" was 9x line, 2000 was NT. NT used more resources because better memory segregationand other stability/security features, so required (at the time) more ram. win2k was good, winME was pretty much "why bother?" since there was (to my knowlege) no big improvement over 98 |
| 19:12 |
Pexin |
then XP came and said everything is NT now because 9x/ME sucks. which wasn't wrong |
| 19:13 |
Pexin |
also XP is when mandatory online activation happened. you could install and use 2k whenever you wanted |
| 19:13 |
celeron55 |
winxp came and made 2000 look like a kid's toy |
| 19:13 |
celeron55 |
i mean, xp is really just a stylized 2000 |
| 19:13 |
celeron55 |
of course it changed after the service packs |
| 19:14 |
Pexin |
xp also had a lot of built in apps, which was ...controversial |
| 19:14 |
celeron55 |
2000 was good until ms stopped security updates |
| 19:14 |
celeron55 |
lol i really worded that first line badly. i mean, originally xp seemed like just 2000 with a new toyish style |
| 19:15 |
Pexin |
I pretty much skipped xp. used 2k long past its lifespan, then went to ..which version of linux did I start on again.. |
| 19:15 |
celeron55 |
that's a good question for me also |
| 19:16 |
Pexin |
oh mandrake |
| 19:17 |
celeron55 |
that's what i used alongside 2000 |
| 19:17 |
Pexin |
well I mean yeah initiall I dualbooted while I learned it |
| 19:18 |
celeron55 |
i'm trying to remember what the distro might have been when i stopped booting to 2000, but i have no idea. i guess i had some games there that i didn't want to delete but didn't actually use. i mean, i have that on my current system too, i have no idea how many years it has been since i booted windows on this |
| 19:20 |
theyre16charlong |
I've used Windows XP for the majority of my life, and I saw my father use it when I was very little. |
| 19:21 |
Pexin |
right XP got so popular that ms was essentially forced to continue supporting it long after its planned EOL to try avoiding a windows virus pandemic due to consumers not upgrading |
| 19:22 |
lissobone |
My dad even bought a licensed disk for ♂Three Hundred Bucks♂. Now he considers that a mistake. It's still (unfortunately) installed on the remaining old computer in our house. I've never seen older M$ operating systems in real life. |
| 19:23 |
lissobone |
I discovered something newer in 2016 when my parents decided to buy me a thick samsung laptop. |
| 19:23 |
lissobone |
It was windows 7. |
| 19:23 |
celeron55 |
i can find some of my own screenshots from 2007, with programs like kde, opera and amarok in them, but these give me no clue what the distro is |
| 19:24 |
celeron55 |
i wish kde 3 was still a thing |
| 19:25 |
lissobone |
It were the greatest of times, and it were the worst of times. I made many friends while playing throughout all those years on some minecraft server, and I lost all of them. |
| 19:25 |
celeron55 |
it was so ahead of its time it's still ahead of everything the wm/de people are doing |
| 19:26 |
lissobone |
KDE is nice. But my primary operating system now is GNU Emacs, so I don't bother what window manager am I running. |
| 19:27 |
celeron55 |
ha, now i found a screenshot with emerge running in one of the konsoles. so this one is gentoo |
| 19:27 |
lissobone |
I have got a cool screenshot of my KDE setup with 100500 transluscent widgets (and a photo of...) |
| 19:27 |
celeron55 |
gentoo with kde 3, what a cool kid |
| 19:27 |
lissobone |
(A photo of...) (I forgot the name of that bird.) |
| 19:28 |
celeron55 |
kde then and kde now are totally different things |
| 19:28 |
celeron55 |
same thing for gnome |
| 19:28 |
celeron55 |
back then these things catered mainly for power users |
| 19:29 |
celeron55 |
these days they cater for clumsy touchscreens |
| 19:29 |
celeron55 |
the world has truly changed |
| 19:29 |
celeron55 |
for the worse |
| 19:29 |
Pexin |
xfce4 |
| 19:36 |
Ryzen2700 |
yeah it was brutal when they end service packs for a windows release |
| 19:37 |
Ryzen2700 |
lissobone: ur missing out windows 3.x |
| 19:37 |
celeron55 |
here's one of my screenshots from 2007 https://i.imgur.com/jr6A6qP.png |
| 19:39 |
celeron55 |
that laptop died within 3 years from that screenshot, then i got the cf-51 on which i started minetest in 2010 |
| 19:39 |
celeron55 |
that's a hp pavilion dv2000 series. nice machine, but very well known for dying in a couple of years from new due to the gpu chip desoldering itself |
| 19:40 |
Ryzen2700 |
I remember that UI from the old knoppix install cd's |
| 19:40 |
Ryzen2700 |
K Desktop Environment 3 is the third series of releases of the K Desktop Environment. There are six major releases in this series. After the release of KDE 4, version 3.5 was forked into the Trinity Desktop Environment. |
| 19:40 |
Ryzen2700 |
^quote from google |
| 19:40 |
Ryzen2700 |
what did u like about it so much? |
| 19:42 |
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| 19:43 |
celeron55 |
kde 3 was more than a sum of its parts. it's difficult to explain. it was a surprisingly coherent whole, with lots of options and widgets out of the box, which all worked, and still it managed to conserve pixels and resources relatively well. it felt like a product, not like a project |
| 19:44 |
celeron55 |
it had themes that were easy to customize. these days customization tends to mean "you can select a pre-made theme". in kde 3, it meant "you can pick any color and size you want for any component in the base theme that you choose" |
| 19:46 |
Ryzen2700 |
thats cool, i never got into linux back then, too me years to finally give up on windows |
| 19:46 |
celeron55 |
both for the wm stuff and for the toolkit itself |
| 19:46 |
celeron55 |
and it had all those options in a good ui. same thing for widgets, choose any you want, and that's not it, they all had lots of options |
| 19:47 |
Ryzen2700 |
i might boot it in a vm sometime |
| 19:47 |
celeron55 |
kde 4 was an absolute trainwreck when it came out and i realized kde 3 was going to be gone in less than a year or so |
| 19:47 |
Ryzen2700 |
if the iso is still easy to find |
| 19:48 |
celeron55 |
i had to switch to something else, and i think i settled on icewm, which i still use. it's a wm stuck in the 90s, and i love it for that. no updates to mess up my experience since 20 years ago |
| 19:49 |
Ryzen2700 |
https://www.reddit.com/r/kde/comments/vp77h5/it_might_be_an_unpopular_opinion_but_kde_4_was/?rdt=50543 |
| 19:49 |
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| 19:49 |
Ryzen2700 |
nice im on xfce |
| 19:49 |
Ryzen2700 |
its awesome |
| 19:49 |
Ryzen2700 |
uv happy |
| 19:49 |
Ryzen2700 |
v* |
| 19:50 |
celeron55 |
kde 4 was creative, and that was about it. it wasted so many pixels, was resource hungry, the apps like amarok were redesigned to be absolutely useless |
| 19:50 |
celeron55 |
they seemed to drop all the hard work they had done do kde 3, in exchange for... something i didn't understand at all |
| 19:51 |
celeron55 |
s/done do/done for/ |
| 19:51 |
celeron55 |
it was traumatizing, really |
| 19:51 |
celeron55 |
i probably have PTSD about kde 4 |
| 19:52 |
Ryzen2700 |
lmao |
| 19:52 |
Ryzen2700 |
like blender 7 to 8 |
| 19:52 |
celeron55 |
it's not something i wish for, or would allow, anyone to experience |
| 19:52 |
Ryzen2700 |
sounds like your a little autistic buddy |
| 19:53 |
Ryzen2700 |
icewm, is that linked to icecat browser |
| 19:53 |
Ryzen2700 |
is there like a whole ice ecosystem |
| 19:53 |
Pexin |
how about when I abandoned gedit for pluma? |
| 19:53 |
celeron55 |
icewm also is not something i wish anyone to experience, but it's the only thing that is keeping me sane in terms of window managers |
| 19:53 |
Ryzen2700 |
does icewm look like a windows clone? |
| 19:54 |
Ryzen2700 |
lol i ditched pluma for mousepad |
| 19:55 |
Ryzen2700 |
now im just ditched mousepad for pluma last week |
| 19:55 |
Ryzen2700 |
tbh im now considering setting files to open with nano with mouse pointer enabled |
| 19:55 |
Ryzen2700 |
using xfce-konsol |
| 19:55 |
Ryzen2700 |
or gnome-console |
| 19:56 |
Ryzen2700 |
gnome-console is a little better in ways i am aware of |
| 19:56 |
celeron55 |
i use pluma when i need a graphical editor instead of vim which i usually use in the terminal |
| 19:57 |
Pexin |
I use nano unless I'll be switching between documents a lot, then pluma |
| 19:57 |
celeron55 |
and for the terminal, i use urxvt |
| 19:57 |
celeron55 |
this is what my icewm looks like https://i.imgur.com/DoMMNTc.png |
| 19:57 |
Pexin |
never wrapped my brain around vim |
| 19:57 |
celeron55 |
basically just a classic unix X11 wm look |
| 19:58 |
Ryzen2700 |
nice |
| 19:59 |
Pexin |
you got an irssi plugin to colorize usernames? |
| 19:59 |
Ryzen2700 |
you a rightie? |
| 19:59 |
Ryzen2700 |
rightie controls |
| 19:59 |
Ryzen2700 |
shocking |
| 20:00 |
celeron55 |
this theme is based on the motif window manager which is from 1989. i modified it to have the bright yellow title for the focused window so that i never miss what's in focus |
| 20:00 |
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| 20:00 |
g_ |
woops |
| 20:00 |
Ryzen3700 |
dammnnn |
| 20:00 |
Ryzen3700 |
killed the window accidentally |
| 20:00 |
Ryzen3700 |
but still |
| 20:00 |
celeron55 |
rightie window controls? |
| 20:01 |
Ryzen3700 |
min max and close buttons lol |
| 20:01 |
celeron55 |
of course, i grew up on windows |
| 20:01 |
Ryzen3700 |
same but i flipped for linux |
| 20:01 |
Ryzen3700 |
and never looked back |
| 20:01 |
Pexin |
isn't that a mac thing? |
| 20:01 |
Pexin |
xfce defaults to right side |
| 20:02 |
Ryzen3700 |
well i started on ubuntu 16.04 |
| 20:02 |
celeron55 |
in icewm you can of course choose how you place the window title buttons, any way you like |
| 20:02 |
Ryzen3700 |
was it ubuquity wm back then or something |
| 20:02 |
Ryzen3700 |
unity? |
| 20:03 |
Ryzen3700 |
yes celeron but the point is you are so windows stockholm that your still suffering the traumatic conditioning to this very day |
| 20:03 |
Ryzen3700 |
saying that you're not far from stockholm are you |
| 20:03 |
Ryzen3700 |
conspiracy much? |
| 20:04 |
celeron55 |
oh you're a psychologist now? nice |
| 20:04 |
Ryzen3700 |
lol i gttos go sleeps now ill let you know in morn'' |
| 20:04 |
lissobone |
it's 5 am for me lol |
| 20:04 |
celeron55 |
i need to sleep too |
| 20:05 |
lissobone |
i can't sleep because i am making ropes out of strings |
| 20:05 |
lissobone |
help me i am now attached to little strings that control me |
| 20:05 |
Pexin |
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAykOz1gWi4 |
| 20:06 |
lissobone |
i think im going insane with handcrafts |
| 20:06 |
* celeron55 |
imagines pulling from the rope, which makes lissobone spin like a lawnmower engine and then lissobone starts up |
| 20:08 |
lissobone |
there's no more room for starting up, all my engines are already at top power (unfortunately for both my sleep and body temperature regulation cuz it's hot outside) |
| 20:08 |
lissobone |
like in that popeye scene when he ate spinach and his muscles turned into hydro power plants |
| 20:10 |
lissobone |
aside from bullwhips and ropes, an idea of a word generator has struck me |
| 20:10 |
lissobone |
it will generate words not yet known by humanity |
| 20:10 |
lissobone |
in ANY language! |
| 20:11 |
lissobone |
i already know how to implement this in emacs lisp |
| 20:12 |
lissobone |
i will store the word generation data in an alist, with keys being word lengths and data being the probability tables |
| 20:12 |
lissobone |
i can omit probabilities for pure randomness |
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