IRC log for #minetest, 2023-03-23

Time	Nick	Message
00:08	MTDiscord	<PrairieWind> Guest54: agreed, they annoyed me with that one and the name changes part
00:09	MTDiscord	<PrairieWind> they did that so that the textures would load faster and so they could optimize the textures easily I think.
00:09	Guest54	it's a stupid idea though
00:09	MTDiscord	<PrairieWind> whether it actually makes load faster, I dont know
00:09	MTDiscord	<PrairieWind> seems just as bad loading time wise to me
00:09	Guest54	well, if they would want to load the textures faster and smaller one idea is to make a texture atlas
00:10	MTDiscord	<PrairieWind> My opinion is starting to matter less there, so meh
00:10	Guest54	PrairieWind am i correct in that renaming the textures of mineclone2 is likely to break every mod that relies on that texture name? or is there some way they fixed it?
00:10	MTDiscord	<PrairieWind> there are breakages
00:11	Guest54	oh great
00:11	Guest54	well, i guess it's like PHP
00:11	MTDiscord	<PrairieWind> for example, the mineclone2 furniture mod
00:11	Guest54	a programming language for non-programmers
00:11	Guest54	i.e. you can use it to write non-programs
00:11	Guest54	PrairieWind that is unfortunate
00:11	Guest54	PrairieWind i guess it also breaks texture packs lol
00:12	MTDiscord	<PrairieWind> I was pissed off (excuse my language) when I found out they changed the bucket texture names and I didnt know they were going to do it. Broke my texture pack.
00:12	MTDiscord	<PrairieWind> yep, texture packs are broken
00:12	Guest54	language excused, it's a shitty thing to do
00:13	MTDiscord	<PrairieWind> they claimed I should have seen it being discussed and that I should have discussed it too, but nope, I never saw it
00:13	Guest54	i am sorry for not having worked more on the mineclonia fork, i did not have energy
00:13	Guest54	oh yeah
00:13	MTDiscord	<PrairieWind> ???
00:13	Guest54	it's always like that
00:13	Guest54	the thing is, shitty developers can make an API and change an API
00:14	Guest54	but one needs to actually be a bit good at it to not break it when changing it
00:14	Guest54	or to know when to call it quits and just let it be
00:14	Guest54	“wrong” texture names are not hurting anyone
00:14	Guest54	breaking every texture pack does
00:14	Guest54	the plans were on display, but they were on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying “beware of the leopard"
00:16	Guest54	PrairieWind i have recently found that software that i wrote years ago was patched by clueless people like that. the software returns JSON. now a new client needs some more info in the JSON. the absolute genius that changed the software makes it now return different JSON depending on some client-sent HTTP header.
00:16	Guest54	like … it's JSON. the old client probably does not care if there is one value more or less.
00:17	Guest54	now instead of just adding a value to the response, you have a whole code path for “what client is this? if it's the old one, send this, if its the new one, send that”.
00:17	muurkha	yeah, that's the benefit of name-value pair systems like HTTP, RFC-822, and JSON
00:17	MTDiscord	<PrairieWind> good thing I dont deal with json.
00:17	Guest54	to make matters worse, that same person seems to have added a field for monetary values
00:17	Guest54	since the API returned stuff like “24,99 EUR”
00:18	MTDiscord	<PrairieWind> I am starting my own game, and I am not releasing it until it is ready and the APIs are as good, clear, and working as I can get them.
00:18	Guest54	and apparently someone was too lazy to convert it to a number
00:18	MTDiscord	<PrairieWind> *minetest game
00:18	Guest54	now the problem is that the field is a float
00:18	MTDiscord	<PrairieWind> pfft
00:19	Guest54	“float money;” – the new hit from the creators of “bool gender;” and “uint8_t year;”
00:20	Guest54	btw for rendering colored text, i wonder
00:20	Guest54	should i support more than two colors (background, foreground) in the unicode text api?
00:20	Guest54	i mean you can always iterate over the result and make it snappy
00:20	MTDiscord	<PrairieWind> If it wasnt for the fact I enjoy playing mineclone2 and dont have a computer that could handle minecraft, I would quit developing mineclone2. I doubt they need me at all.
00:21	Guest54	i am playing it again after a long time not doing it
00:21	Guest54	making a farm on the nether roof
00:21	Guest54	fishing on the nether roof
00:21	Guest54	on an anarchy server ;)
00:22	muurkha	JSON doesn't really have a DECIMAL type
00:22	Guest54	PrairieWind want to come to oysterity server
00:23	Guest54	muurkha yeah but the thing is, then what i did, making it stringly typed is the safest
00:23	Guest54	“float money” is a code smell
00:23	MTDiscord	<PrairieWind> I can join, but I will be on as WindRider
00:23	Guest54	just come to the nether roof
00:23	MTDiscord	<PrairieWind> PrairieWind account is very far
00:23	Guest54	and bring some stuff
00:23	MTDiscord	<PrairieWind> . . .
00:23	MTDiscord	<PrairieWind> uhh
00:23	Guest54	i need a bucket
00:23	Guest54	or just come there?
00:23	MTDiscord	<PrairieWind> I dont have stuff on windrider account
00:23	Guest54	do you know how to do it
00:24	MTDiscord	<PrairieWind> I can find a nether portal and noclip to the roof
00:24	Guest54	there is one at spawn
00:24	Guest54	bool checkPrivilege(const std::string &priv) const
00:24	Guest54	- { return (m_privileges.count(priv) != 0); }
00:24	Guest54	+ { return true ; /* (m_privileges.count(priv) != 0); */ }
00:24	Guest54	then you can noclip
00:24	MTDiscord	<PrairieWind> . . .
00:24	Guest54	if you do not want to cheat, use a boat
00:25	Guest54	i think there was also a trick using an ender pearl
00:25	MTDiscord	<PrairieWind> I have dragonfire for oysterity
00:25	Guest54	lots of ways to go to the roof
00:25	Guest54	ah i see
00:25	MTDiscord	<PrairieWind> only works for minecraft
00:25	Guest54	wdym
00:25	MTDiscord	<PrairieWind> mineclone2 e pearls dont work that way
00:25	Guest54	i thought they could do that
00:25	Guest54	i think i tried it once
00:26	Guest54	anyways, boatclip is more reliable
00:26	Guest54	and easier to do
00:26	MTDiscord	<PrairieWind> hmm
00:26	MTDiscord	<PrairieWind> why arent my csms showing up...
00:26	MTDiscord	<PrairieWind> I need to continue working on my client chat bot csm
00:27	MTDiscord	<PrairieWind> I want to add a function that automatically sings never gonna give you up in chat
00:27	Guest54	oh no
00:28	Guest54	i have a flashback – i remember when there was some griefer who could not stand sex talk
00:28	Guest54	and then lizzy made this chatbot that spammed the chat with smut until the griefer went away
00:28	Guest54	something like that
00:28	MTDiscord	<PrairieWind> bahahahhaa
00:28	Guest54	are there still griefers?
00:29	Guest54	i mean spawn looks pretty … intact
00:29	Guest54	i think i should give mineclone2 a troll PR. by which i mean a feature they want, but which ruins play.
00:29	Guest54	some time ago i figured out how to implement lavacasting
00:30	Guest54	turns out if you make it exactly like minecraft you can make really high triangles
00:30	Guest54	i wonder if they want it hehe
00:30	Guest54	my best troll patch was for gnome3 screenshooter
00:31	Guest54	i proposed to make an “old photo” filter for the screenshot
00:31	Guest54	one of the first responses was that this is obviously bogus
00:31	Guest54	but then some people were like WOW COOL EASTER EGG
00:31	Guest54	PrairieWind have they implemented the monsters that come if you do not sleep?
00:32	Guest54	i think those are a poison feature too
00:33	Guest54	some features are better left unimplemented
00:33	Guest54	(like [png)
00:34	Guest54	PrairieWind are you coming?
00:36	Guest54	what is it with people joining and minecraft server crashing
00:36	MTDiscord	<PrairieWind> no, the stupid phantoms are not implemented hip hip horray
00:36	Guest54	haha
00:36	Guest54	if you ever grow to hate the dev team, just implement them hehehe
00:36	MTDiscord	<PrairieWind> also, I dont have a bucket
00:37	Guest54	i have a fishing line
00:37	Guest54	can you autofish?
00:37	MTDiscord	<PrairieWind> even I dont want phantoms, so meh
00:37	MTDiscord	<PrairieWind> I need to turn on my csms, but yah
00:38	Guest54	can we get seeds from fishing i wonder
00:40	Guest54	nether roof challenge would be a fun mini game
00:40	Guest54	like skyblock, but safer
00:44	Guest54	oh i can make a composter!
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00:46	Guest54	what does a fletching table do?
00:47		TheCoffeMaker joined #minetest
00:47	Guest54	there seems to be a weird rendering error when the text is just at the horizon
00:47	Guest54	do you see it too?
00:48	Guest54	the chat is overlaid by something, distance fog or so
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00:53	MTDiscord	<PrairieWind> no seeds from fishing
00:55	Guest54	can we get metal
00:56	Guest54	what's a smoker for?
00:56	Guest54	looks like another furnace
00:57	Guest54	oh a faster furnace
00:57	Guest54	lol, how uninspired
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00:59	Guest54	fishing is OP
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01:07	Guest54	PrairieWind did the item renaming idiocy break any of your mods?
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01:13		proller joined #minetest
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01:44	MTDiscord	<PrairieWind> yah
01:45	MTDiscord	<PrairieWind> but I immediately fixed it
01:56	Guest54	PrairieWind i think if people rename textures and items just to break other mods then it's kinda like they have nothing better to do
01:56	Guest54	a system's purpose is what it does
01:56	Guest54	i.e. they don't want others to rely on their mods
01:59	Guest54	i wonder when lizzy will stop thinking WASM is the next big thing and totally needs to replace lua
02:01	MTDiscord	<kimapr> Whar? [png is good
02:03	MTDiscord	<Jonathon> (its erle) if thats not enough, there just trolling/spamming as usual
02:07	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> you could ask those developing mineclone2, or you could simply rant about it and bash it. i think the latter is more satisfying, right?
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02:09	MTDiscord	<Jonathon> people on irc dont see responses, unless you > quote for the irc people, the above is replying to > does anyone know what prompted mineclone2 devs to rip out all textures from the mods and make a single texture directory and also rename some of them? it seems like what people would do who constantly have issues with mod dependencies (i.e. make a big ball of mud) but i don't really know if there is a technical reason (i doubt it, but
02:09	MTDiscord	asking can't > hurt).
02:09	Guest54	i see
02:10	MTDiscord	<PrairieWind> Guest54, meet the new mineclone2 maintainer
02:10	Guest54	AncientMariner, i have read a bit of the discussion on git.minetest.land, but i have found no better explanation than “aesthetics are more important than compatibility or composibility” (which is a position that I know people hold)
02:10	MTDiscord	<PrairieWind> ancientmariner
02:10	Guest54	oh hi
02:10	Guest54	would you enlighten me then about the reasons for the breakage?
02:10	MTDiscord	<PrairieWind> aggg, oysterity is in a death crash cycle
02:10	Guest54	also do you know about texture atlases?
02:10	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> it was an idea originally floated by the previous maintainer to improve modpack compatibility. having textures in one folder where it can all be optimized, and tp creators could find them in one place. it was discussed at length in 2 issues, and 1 pr. and eventually the decision was to proceed with this. one hesitation was the fact that many assets were incorrectly named (not prefixed with modname, which made this organisationally a
02:10	MTDiscord	nightmare), so the plan was taken to rename them. no real suggestion at the time suggested about mods being broken. unfortunately after the event and 2 prs, we discovered this. which sucked
02:11	Guest54	if only someone had warned you lol
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02:11	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> if only
02:12	Blockhead256[m]	honestly I am disappointed I haven't yet seen a game that uses a texture atlas. It would work wonders with a limited palette
02:12	Guest54	you don't really need a texture atlas
02:13	Guest54	but you can use it
02:13	Guest54	i mean, why not
02:13	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> i'm not familiar with the concept, personally
02:13	Guest54	AncientMariner, just so you know, i did try to optimize textures once. and i found out that the best way to do so is to convert everything to tga because small textures then compress better in zip files. the reason i did not suggest that is … because it would break texture naming, which would break textures and mods, since extensions are part of
02:13	Guest54	the texture name as far as i know. if you scroll
02:14	Blockhead256[m]	soothing32 palette + texture atlas and your texture file could be so small
02:14	Guest54	well, you get about 67 bytes of overhead per png file and 18 per tga file, so …
02:14	Guest54	AncientMariner so why did it never come up in the review that it breaks stuff? did the reviewers sleep or what
02:15	Guest54	i mean it breaks the display of the patch in gitea
02:15	Guest54	(patch too long)
02:15	Guest54	that's a reason to reject a patch if you ask me ;)
02:15	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> because people are human, and cannot always see the future 🙂
02:15	Guest54	also why did you not just revert it
02:15	Guest54	there was once a change that made every block unmine-able. it was reverted.
02:16	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> i've got people who know an awful lot more about graphics than i did, that didn't really catch it, and hey, that's life
02:16	Guest54	yeah, but as maintainer, why didn't you go back to the previous good state
02:16	Guest54	as soon as you noticed
02:16	Guest54	it's not like anyone would be inconvenienced by having to not update everything modpack and texturepack wise
02:17	Guest54	i mean i am pretty sure it breaks at least one of my mods
02:17	Blockhead256[m]	and the mods that did update? ask them to revert?
02:17	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> i mean, ultimately, it still feels like the right thing. we have 1200+ assets, and it's a massive ball of spaghetti. we cannot avoid dealing with tech debt, and if you avoid too long, things grind to a halt. this will imho make it easier to support creation of texture packs and management of assets
02:17	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> there will be short term pain, of course, and i'm thinking how we mitigate this
02:17	Guest54	hahahaha
02:18	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> but we haven't actually released this
02:18	Guest54	do you want a list of what texture packs and mods break or what do i need to do
02:18	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> it was caught as a few are playing on master
02:18	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> any information on what could be impacted would be appreciated
02:19	Guest54	look, there is a very simple way to fix this: create symlinks for every old filename
02:19	Blockhead256[m]	windows would like a word
02:19	Guest54	before you release anything obviously
02:19	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> i think one mod from rudzik is impacted that i know of., and he's not responding to issues right now by the looks of things, prairie resolve the one he has.
02:19	Guest54	wait, let me check something
02:21	Guest54	let's see if it breaks any of my mods
02:21	Guest54	AncientMariner could it be that this is coming from the same school of thought where people are like „we have to many mods, instead of getting dependencies right, LETS PUT EVERYTHING INTO ONE MOD”?
02:22	Blockhead256[m]	btw about symlinks
02:22	Blockhead256[m]	https://security.stackexchange.com/questions/10194/why-do-you-have-to-be-an-admin-to-create-a-symlink-in-windows
02:22	Guest54	because i noticed that some people seem to think this
02:22	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> i'm not sure i understand
02:22	Guest54	Blockhead256[m] that is unfortunate
02:24	Guest54	AncientMariner, some people, when they see a system made out of independent modules, are overwhelmed by the complexity and think that putting everything into one directory or file or whatever makes it better. i have seen it proposed when mods depend on each other and some dependencies are broken or unlisted or otherwise wrong. it's kinda like
02:24	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> and things were definitely not that simplistic, and boiling it down to that is probably harsh on people who've been involved
02:24	Guest54	rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic – if you do stuff like that, you'll not get rid of complexity, only hide it.
02:24	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> but no not necessarily that
02:25	Guest54	question: how many commits deal with regressions in your estimation?
02:25	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> the aim was to improve the process for creating texture packs, ironically
02:25	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> and i still think it will
02:25	Guest54	lol
02:25	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> going through 1600 folders to create a TP or know what to edit is a nightmare i wouldn't personally fancy
02:25	Guest54	uh, do you not use find(1) or similar?
02:26	Guest54	it's one of the simplest things in the world
02:26	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> not really, but many people that create TP have varying technical knowledge. i don't think it's right to exclude those that are solid at the graphics, but not the techy type
02:26	Guest54	well, what exactly did you rename btw? everything that is not modname prefixed?
02:27	Guest54	well, if you break other people's existing things it's infinitely worse than any good you can do with hypothetically easier creation
02:27	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> things that weren't prefixed with mod names have been started, there is more work to do
02:27	Guest54	it kinda alienates your core audience
02:27	Guest54	the people who have already done the work
02:27	Guest54	on a technical level, you could simply allow the old name still
02:28	Guest54	no harm done
02:28	Guest54	make a directory old_texture_names and put them names in there
02:29	Guest54	you know, it reminds me of the unified /usr directory on linux
02:29	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> i do feel the pain, and it does bother me, yet i have to weigh up pros and cons and make a decision. i still think it is the right thing and any sensible mitigations i'm willing to take on board
02:29	Guest54	what is sensible?
02:29	Guest54	keeping the old filenames?
02:29	Guest54	or is it insensitive (or whatever the opposite is)
02:30	Guest54	so … my mod mcl_polished_stone_stairs uses mcl_stairs_stone_slab_top.png, was that renamed?
02:30	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> what do you mean? having twice the assets so multiplayer folk are downloading assets twice?
02:31	Guest54	you can obviously create some script that copies the files on startup or so
02:31	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> ah, erlehmann. nice to meet you 🙂
02:31	Guest54	mcl_mushrooms_3d uses mcl_mushrooms_mushroom_block_ etc. pp.
02:32	Guest54	quick harvest and replant does not seem to use any textures
02:32	Guest54	AncientMariner btw do not believe anyone who says the mcl_maps code is hard to understand. it is quite easy and lizzy implemented it basically exactly like minecraft.
02:33	Guest54	if it's slow, that's because it has to read a big part of the map and i think there was (is?) no get_nodes_under_air() function or so?
02:34	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> that hasn't been changed
02:34	Guest54	it has been a while, but i had implemented map markers for it and never merged it
02:34	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> that'll be fine as it's prefixed correctly
02:35	Guest54	mcl_lever_status_indicator uses jeija_wall_lever_lever_light_on.png
02:35	Guest54	i guess you'll break that one
02:35	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> that will eventually go to the top of my list. it bugs me we don't have zoomed out maps
02:35	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> feels unusable right now
02:36	Guest54	oh, that's easy actually
02:36	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> you're clearly knowledgeable on the subject so what is easy for you, may not be for others 🙂
02:37	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> but i enjoy learning and digesting code as it becomes the highest priority
02:37	Guest54	well, i did do weird shenanigans like saving the map in the item meta
02:37	Guest54	the reason is that otherwise it will not work in world downloads
02:37	MTDiscord	<PrairieWind> wait, Guest54 is erlehmann?
02:38	Guest54	was it not obvious when i started farming on the nether roof?
02:38	muurkha	oh hi erlehmann! glad to see you!
02:38	muurkha	no it was not
02:38	MTDiscord	<PrairieWind> I probably should have guessed after you mentioned mineclonia
02:38	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> btw, erlehmann, if i need to reach you for mod specific stuff, what's the best place to reach you?
02:39	Guest54	in a few weeks i guess, send me an email
02:39	Guest54	AncientMariner how did the “let's rename all the color items thing” go through btw? i mean it's such a useless idea on the face of it to reuse an item name.
02:40	Guest54	(i.e. minetest engine has aliases for a reason)
02:40	Guest54	like what was the reasoning behind that
02:40	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> i'm not sure i understand
02:41	Guest54	something with dyes, i.e. changing the meaning of item names
02:41	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> what is your email?
02:41	Guest54	try nils+mineclone2dieweltistgarnichtso.net
02:41	Guest54	but don't expect a response too soon
02:41	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> ah, yes, that went ahead. we did add some crafting recipes in to convert across. i do plan to keep than in for a little bit (3-6 months)
02:41	Guest54	but why was it done at all?
02:42	Guest54	like, there are several simpler ways to achieve the same result without breakage and without conversion recipes
02:42	Guest54	i believe they were all brought up
02:42	Guest54	i just don't understand why a group would try to have more work instead of less
02:42	Guest54	for the same result
02:43	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> to be fair, it was badly named from the start
02:43	Guest54	(and also break stuff in user worlds in the meantime)
02:43	Guest54	indeed, but that can be solved with aliases
02:43	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> calling lapis blue_dye...
02:43	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> it hasn't broken anything, we have a recipe to convert stuff back
02:43	Guest54	that is an aesthetic argument, yes, it is ugly named. but it can be solved with aliases.
02:43	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> it's not just aesthetic
02:43	Guest54	if it has not broken anything, what happens to external mods that use, say, bonemeal or lapis?
02:43	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> naming in code is essential
02:44	Guest54	do they now work on dyes?
02:44	Guest54	yes and as i said, you could have registered aliases
02:44	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> because if people don't understand what something does, it's a recipe for bugs
02:44	Guest54	why did you not?
02:44	Guest54	i just don't get it why the tool that is for that purpose was not used
02:44	Guest54	https://minetest.gitlab.io/minetest/aliases/
02:44	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> when you get to a point you need a doctorate to understand all the workaround etc. then you're limiting who can work on that code base
02:44	Guest54	> Aliases of itemnames can be added by using minetest.register_alias(alias, original_name) or minetest.register_alias_force(alias, original_name).
02:44	Guest54	it's very simple
02:45	Guest54	the only rule is that you can never re-use the old name, but you can not do that anyway if you want to keep compatibility and not break external mods
02:45	Guest54	so what is the problem with aliases?
02:46	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> hey. i didn't write the code
02:46	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> i approved it though...
02:46	muurkha	heh
02:46	muurkha	well, nothing is perfect
02:46	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> i don't plan on micromanaging every change, and there was mitigations in place
02:47	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> to craft stuff across. giving users 6 months potentially
02:47	Guest54	lol
02:47	Guest54	so i guess the explanation is “i approved it even though i do not know the solution space”, correct?
02:48	muurkha	hey, erlehmann, now it sounds like you're just being rude
02:48	Guest54	i mean, if that is the case, you can definitely ask me if you want to prevent further breakage, but i probably won't update anything to deal with that stuff
02:48	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> maybe i'm not as great as you
02:48	Guest54	no, it's not about being great, it's about what someone thinks approving means
02:48	Guest54	it can be a buerocratical formality or an adversarial process
02:48	Guest54	the latter is much more frustrating and also leads to less bugs
02:48	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> i know your views on this already
02:48	Guest54	the former is nicer
02:49	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> mineclonia review process was onerous
02:49	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> and you left yourself a lot of work to do
02:49	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> and that's cool if you like working that way
02:49	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> but i don't plan to
02:49	Guest54	yeah one person left with the comment “you have managed to produce no bugs, but it reminds me of my workplace”
02:50	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> i respect the focus on quality and performance
02:50	Guest54	anyways, if you truly do not care about compatibility, i don't think it's rude to say i don't need to provide further critcism
02:50	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> i have similar goals
02:50	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> but we're making a game, that people play and enjoy
02:50	Guest54	it would only frustrate both of us
02:50	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> i ain't planning to valheim this
02:50	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> (waiting years for updates until no one plays)
02:50	Guest54	well, in the context of a game, my position is „do not break user worlds”, but i guess that ship has sailed lol
02:51	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> i care about compatibility, and i appreciate constructive feedback
02:51	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> but i don't agree that compatibility should prevent progress
02:51	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> it's a balancing act
02:51	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> and we're probably at different positions on that spectrum
02:51	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> i like that we have different views
02:51	Guest54	only if there is a balance to be found. in the case of the item renaming, a perfectly good solution was not taken (defining lots of aliases).
02:51	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> because debate and challenge is good
02:52	Guest54	unless i am missing something (e.g. aliases not working on some items)
02:52	Guest54	in the case of the texture renaming, what do you suggest people do? should everyone else rename their stuff and change their code?
02:53	Guest54	muurkha what exactly did you find rude?
02:53	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> at some point, it may be needed, i'm afraid
02:54	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> i have to support mineclone2
02:54	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> i cannot support it, legacy, and 100s of mods
02:54	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> i have to make decisions that drive it forward
02:54	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> and i hope that mods (with enough notice can still be supported)
02:55	Guest54	AncientMariner i do believe you have good intentions. i do not believe that there needs to be a balance be found between compatibility and progress in the cases i have seen so far in mineclone2 (which was about a year ago) because you can easily have both (it is just sometimes not obvious).
02:55	muurkha	Guest54: oh, it seemed like you were attributing a situation you didn't like to some sort of unusual degree of ignorance on the part of AncientMariner, and ignorance is a commonly deprecated personal attribute
02:56	muurkha	while I suppose that in some sense every deficiency in software is a result of things its author didn't know when they wrote it, I don't think AncientMariner is doing especially badly on this point
02:56	Guest54	muurkha i may have misinterpreted what AncientMariner tried to say about “i did not write it, i approved it”
02:57	Guest54	it happens quite often that people approve stuff that ”looks correct” without thinking as much about it as the author of the patch
02:57	muurkha	more generally, I think it's important to be willing to make mistakes in public (especially in approving things) in order to learn from each other
02:57	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> i mean it came across as you're approving stuff you're clueless of, which was sharp, but i've heard worse 🙂
02:57	Guest54	i don't think AncientMariner is doing badly overall either
02:57	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> i appreciate that, and i do appreciate the challenge
02:57	Guest54	i just wanted to know the backstory behind something that could easily have gone a less-complex-same-result-for-the-user way
02:58	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> i absolutely care about people's worlds that they have invested in
02:58	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> i went out of my way to fix a mcl5 -> mcl2 conversion issue
02:58	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> so people can bring it across
02:58	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> and added compatibility tags so it is a first class citizen
02:59	Guest54	well, mcl5 was clearly the poster child in terms of “move fast and break things“
02:59	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> but while i care about it, i cannot let it prevent progress
02:59	Guest54	i remember when lizzy and me were like “don't change mcl_maps” and it was still changed in mcl5 ;)
02:59	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> i'm closer to your position on things that you realise
02:59	Guest54	(and broke all existing maps)
02:59	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> most of my time this release was on performance fixes and error handling
02:59	Guest54	nice
03:00	Guest54	so what do you think of my idea to just make a folder that contains old names for textures?
03:00	Guest54	then you have one folder for whatever purpose you want to have and one with the old names
03:00	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> i'm trying to understand it? you mean like a copy of assets?
03:01	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> 2 assets with 2 names?
03:01	Guest54	i mean, like the symlink thing
03:02	Guest54	just keep the old name around, no harm done
03:02	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> i think it was suggested that windows users won't get the benefit of that
03:02	Guest54	well, you can still have the same file twice
03:02	Guest54	it can't be that many renamed files
03:02	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> 600 ish
03:02	Guest54	lol
03:02	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> out of 2300
03:02	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> so yeah 🙂
03:02	Guest54	that's gonna upset a lot of ppl ig if you don't do anything
03:03	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> it's going to upset a lot of future people that want to create texture packs if i do nothing
03:03	Guest54	anyways, i don't think i'll have the time to “fix” my mods anytime soon
03:03	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> this game isn't out of beta, some banks give less legacy support 🙂
03:04	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> i can give you notice of what i rename and give weeks notice if you prefer
03:04	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> but it's up to you whether you support your mods
03:04	Guest54	i have heard ”it is still beta, we can break everything” before
03:04	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> i don't hold that view
03:05	Guest54	from a previous maintainer ;)
03:05	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> but basically, your view is that i cannot make the right technical changes because mod authors are unwilling to support sensible changes we need to make
03:06	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> you've probably not been following closely, but myself and a previous maintainer aren't on, shall we say the best of terms
03:06	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> i'm not going to go further, as i'm not dragging all that up again
03:06	Guest54	no, my view is that you can make the right technical changes, but the change you have is wrong (or rather: incomplete) because it does result in stuff breaking that does not need to be broken with the right technical change
03:06	Guest54	no i have not
03:06	Guest54	you can query me what happened if you want to
03:07	Guest54	i was and still am busy having no energy and then trying to rebuild my life since i take the correct supplements
03:07	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> it is wrong in your view, but right in mine. ultimately, it's my call to make
03:07	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> i absolutely respect your view and concerns though
03:07	Guest54	btw, here is actual my POV: me and some others made some software that worked with your software correctly, for many months. it is easy for you to not break it. if you do (for reasons, i know), i guess you go fix it, in a way that it still works like before. you have no right to demand i or anyone else fix something.
03:07	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> and i do not take it lightly
03:08	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> i understand that, and i do hope you get things sorted
03:08	Guest54	you could of course send me a patch, but that patch does have to preserve compatibility with older versions and other mods using the same texture name as now (i have no idea how to do it), so just changing the name of the referenced textures will not do it.
03:09	Guest54	i think the lever thing is a mesecons thing that just so happens to work for mineclone2
03:09	Guest54	because it inherited a somewhat weird version of mesecons
03:09	Guest54	but i don't really remember
03:09	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> oh gosh, our mesecons
03:09	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> that's a whole level of erm, challenge
03:10	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> the fact it deviated from the original without a rename and anything that requires that dependency, well, good luck
03:10	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> with all due respect. i am unlikely to be able to do that
03:11	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> i have 770 bugs to think about
03:11	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> a game with very serious issues. lag that impacts current players, nether which is so dangerous it's unplayable in some biomes
03:11	Guest54	AncientMariner ultimately, you of course don't have do anything. i just want you to know that you can satisfy both the imaginary audience (people who will not create texture packs because they need all textures for all mods in a single directory) and keep compatibility. the simplest way being to just copying the files to a new directory.
03:11	Guest54	which is funny, because investigating lag was one of the things why mineclonia was created
03:12	Guest54	ultimately, a lot of the improvements cora did came up to long grueling reviews
03:12	Guest54	AncientMariner just so i can later say i told you so: if you want to rename the mesecons thingy, please use aliases, that way you keep compatibility. you need to keep these aliases forever.
03:13	Guest54	(by which i mean, do not remove them after 6 months)
03:13	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> i was thinking more of lbm that alias
03:13	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> to convert stuff over
03:13	Guest54	oh, did you see the funny thing i did to actually handle lbm conversions?
03:13	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> obviously stuff in chest is another challenge
03:13	Guest54	i think i made one that was especially nice
03:13	Guest54	why would you need an lbm?
03:14	Guest54	… i have the suspicion that there is an issue with aliases and maybe i just don't know it?
03:14	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> because once you've brought it over, it's in line with things, rather than having 17 different versions with different aliases and no one who remembers why this alias is here
03:15	Guest54	lol
03:15	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> i've seen bugs with half hearted aliases that get dropped
03:15	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> a run once abm, that converts over is 1 and done
03:15	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> and no longer legacy
03:15	Guest54	well, the problem is that still breaks every mod that relies on it
03:15	Guest54	with aliases you can change the itemname once and then do a cleanup
03:15	Guest54	for the old name
03:15	Guest54	until only one line remains that you keep, the alias
03:16	Guest54	to preserve compat for external mods and recipes
03:16	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> not really and if lbm is used, if someone wants to use something that depends on mesecons, it actually can be
03:16	Guest54	i don't get it, lbms were not even reliable last time i tested them
03:17	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> did you raise a bug with minetest?
03:17	Guest54	well, what i did was a bit weird
03:17	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> it does feel the correct tool for the job, and avoiding it because of fear is not great
03:17	Guest54	i wrote the compatibility code for the nether roof from versions of mineclone2 that did not have air there
03:18	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> and what was the weirdness?
03:19	Guest54	if you do something like put an lbm on air or so at somepoint it will no longer fire.
03:19	Guest54	i didn't figure it out and i don't think i filed a bug because it was such a weird thing to do in the first place.
03:20	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> well you have some that run at every load, and some that run_once
03:20	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> if you're converting over, running at every load works quite effectively
03:20	Guest54	the run_once was not reliable i think
03:20	Guest54	but i don't remember what i did to trigger it
03:20	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> run_once, and you have to ensure you've renamed it after you've tested, as it's probably considered itself run and doesn't run again
03:21	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> or don't run once in testing and convert to run_once when you're done
03:21	Guest54	> you have to ensure you've renamed it after you've tested
03:21	Guest54	wellllll
03:22	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> btw, on the performance front, check out the profiling info here: https://git.minetest.land/MineClone2/MineClone2/pulls/3545
03:22	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> between 0.82 and latest master is quite something
03:23	Guest54	how did performance get so bad? didn't cora merge all the performance improvements from mineclonia into mineclone2?
03:23	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> i think there was some historic fear of abms because of abm overuse
03:23	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> and things moved to on_step
03:23	Guest54	oh lol
03:24	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> but then, if you're running something 20 times a second
03:24	Guest54	isn't that attached to the player
03:24	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> vs a 1 second abm...
03:24	Guest54	like player server ticks or so?
03:24	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> yup
03:24	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> basically, most stuff that flagged up was finding objects or nodes near... 20 times a second
03:24	Guest54	i do remember that the extremely painful reviews in mineclonia always involved performance regression tests. i suggest you find someone who runs minetest on an old netbook or so to do that … :P
03:25	Guest54	oh, did you ever hear the story of the fire traffic?
03:25	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> i don't do it every pr, but i profile multiple times a week on master
03:25	Guest54	basically, lizzy (?) tested some burning code only on localhost, it was sending >60 times a second that the flame needs to change its texture. and you could be on fire multiple times.
03:25	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> plus, i know what i'm looking for now
03:26	Guest54	how do you profile actually?
03:27	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> this has been amazing: https://content.minetest.net/packages/jwmhjwmh/jitprofiler/
03:27	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> rip jude 😦
03:27	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> but using that and the flamegraphs make it really easy to drill down
03:28	Guest54	oh, is it basically “luajit -jp=a” or so?
03:29	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> i have no idea. as far as i'm concerned it's magic 🙂
03:30	Guest54	btw, regarding LBMs, did i understand it correctly that instead of defining an alias you would iterate on every block on load and replace the thing in every node and every node inventory and so on?
03:30	Guest54	maybe i did not understand it correctly
03:31	Guest54	i do remember that someone suggested stuff like that for the dyes thing (instead of defining an alias), i hope that didn't catch on
03:31	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> for nodes, replacing with the new (correctly named one)
03:32	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> also very useful for picking up new attributes etc.
03:32	Guest54	and for inventories on nodes (and items, like shulkers)
03:32	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> inventories are the complexity, and i haven't really got a solution yet
03:32	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> i'm thinking if i can get something to iterate over contents on load
03:32	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> but i haven't found anything pressing enough that justifies it
03:33	Guest54	you do realize that defining an alias does solve the issue with inventories and also makes it so you no longer need an LBM unless you need to add some new attributes (in which case you need the LBM even without a renaming)
03:33	Guest54	?
03:33	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> an alias solves the problem right now. well patches over it
03:33	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> but long term, if further changes are made, it gets messy
03:33	Guest54	it solves it forever with one line. i mean, i just don't see the advantage in the LBM solution. it's more code, which you also need to keep.
03:34	Guest54	how do aliases get messy?
03:34	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> so if you rename, then change attributes
03:35	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> i am not opposed to aliases, and will use them where i feel their appropriate
03:35	Guest54	so suppose you only want to rename the embarrasing mesecons mod to redstone or so
03:35	Guest54	would you then use aliases?
03:35	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> but it does feel more like a sticking plaster than solving the root cause
03:35	Guest54	oh, but it does solve the root cause on an engine level
03:35	Guest54	old name = new name
03:35	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> no
03:35	Guest54	for everything
03:36	Guest54	so what is not solved?
03:36	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> let's say you have mesecons names, and you alias it
03:36	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> and then later, someone wants to use mesecons with their world, or a mod that depends on meseconds
03:36	Guest54	btw, i wrote some code that updated the formspecs of ender chests on clamity. the LBM which has the hash of the formspec in the name. that guarantees it is always updated when the formspec changes (if LBMs fire).
03:36	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> then basically, any mesecon node is being interpretted by the alias
03:36	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> and you have a clash
03:37	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> and you cannot support mesecons based mods later
03:37	Guest54	oh, wait so it all comes down to “let's break compatibility with what exists to make it easier for stuff that does not exist” again
03:37	Guest54	i see
03:37	Guest54	the root cause was keeping the mesecons name
03:37	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> it feels you're preventing mod support long term because you're not correctly migrating
03:38	Guest54	well, there is no correct solution in that way
03:38	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> no, because if you migrate, it doesn't break, and you can support going forward
03:38	Guest54	either you break compatibility with every mod relying on the mesecons name
03:38	Guest54	or you can later have the mesecons name
03:38	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> or you can do both
03:38	Guest54	i know what i would chose (not having mesecons later, if i have a clone of it)
03:38	Guest54	i see, thus you arrive at the lbm
03:38	Guest54	good that we have that cleared up
03:38	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> lbm to move yours over, and then, because it's run once, or you later remove that, any new ones aren't affected by your code
03:38	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> and can support it
03:39	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> ours isn't a mesecons clone
03:39	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> it's transfering it to support redstone
03:39	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> which can differ functionally
03:39	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> and may not work with other mods
03:39	Guest54	btw, let me test something
03:39	Guest54	i will give you a bug report if it works
03:39	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> a bug report for what?
03:40	Guest54	mineclone2
03:40	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> i haven't done anything on that yet? 😉
03:40	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> we ain't accepting future bugs just yet
03:40	Guest54	nah, i'll test if there is an existing bug
03:40	Guest54	i don't want to appear as if i am just rude, i want to be at least rude and useful
03:40	Guest54	and reporting bugs (i.e. giving you more work) is useful, right? :P
03:41	Guest54	lol, the title “it's not in MC!!”
03:41	Guest54	hahaha
03:41	Guest54	AncientMariner as maintainer, how often did you need to deal with people who claim something is NOT EXACTLY LIKE MINECRAFT?
03:41	Guest54	we always made fun of them
03:41	Guest54	and i wonder if there are more now
03:42	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> i'm always happy to receive bugs. especially those that impact on users
03:42	Guest54	to clarify, i mean people who say ”the magnifying glass is not in minecraft, remove it“
03:42	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> lol, there are plenty
03:42	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> and while i don't agree, i respect them
03:42	MTDiscord	<PrairieWind> I have issues with the minecraft purists
03:42	MTDiscord	<PrairieWind> agreed
03:42	MTDiscord	<PrairieWind> I like trying to get new non minecraft things in it
03:42	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> i personally feel mc has deficiencies, and can be improved
03:43	MTDiscord	<PrairieWind> and I have succeeded at least once
03:43	Guest54	PrairieWind, i got the obsidian boat in, i hope no one removes it
03:43	Guest54	problem: it burns
03:43	Guest54	my fault
03:43	MTDiscord	<PrairieWind> it isnt gone yet
03:43	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> prairie is very good at pushing those boundaries
03:43	Guest54	well, actually, the fault is obviously with the reviewer
03:43	Guest54	:PPP
03:43	MTDiscord	<PrairieWind> 😄
03:44	Guest54	does it still sink?
03:44	Guest54	i mean i made it as a joke
03:44	Guest54	are christmas chests still in?
03:44	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> i think it does
03:44	Guest54	i made them as a joke too
03:44	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> i think a player tried to raise it as a bug
03:44	Guest54	hahaha
03:44	MTDiscord	<PrairieWind> christmas chests exist, yes
03:44	Guest54	i think the obsidian boat should float on lava but sink in water
03:44	Guest54	and not burn
03:44	Guest54	i should have put more work in it
03:44	Guest54	didn't really expect it to get accepted
03:44	Guest54	as they say: “nothing lasts as long as a provisorium”
03:45	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> but don't worry. i'll be keeping an eye out for your troll prs 😉
03:45	MTDiscord	<PrairieWind> if you want to fix it, go right ahead and fix it if you want
03:46	Guest54	AncientMariner these days i have too little energy for that
03:46	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> fair enough. i think it happens to us all at some point
03:47	Guest54	no, i was sick
03:47	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> but usually those that work on redstone....
03:47	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> oof, sorry to hear that
03:47	Guest54	vitamin D deficiency
03:47	Guest54	blood tests do not test for it by default, you have to request it
03:47	Guest54	it's super cheap
03:47	Guest54	when i learnt about vitamin deficiencies of sailors in school a long time ago, i thought that couldn't happen to me!
03:48	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> how does it impact, if you don't mind me asking. i know it can trigger low mood etc. vitamin c absorbion
03:48	MTDiscord	<PrairieWind> go to margaritaville and enjoy the sun
03:50	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> (just looked up scurvy and feels he needs to start taking vitamins again)
03:50	Guest54	well, the result was basically extremely low energy. i also had a vitamin b12 deficiency, but i only really improved after i started taking high doses of vitamin D weekly
03:50	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> ah, fair enough
03:51	MTDiscord	<PrairieWind> jeez ancient
03:51	MTDiscord	<PrairieWind> I knew about scurvy from 2nd grade
03:51	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> i can relate a little though. i got long covid. fatigue and pains is part of my life now
03:51	Guest54	so the backstory is i had a bad infection on my foot in the beginning of 2020, it heald slowly, so i could not walk for some time. then was winter. and i never again went out with enough exposed skin to produce vitamin D i guess.
03:51	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> i knew about scurvy vit c and pirates, but never quite the actual symptoms
03:52	Guest54	i mean i could walk, but was basically in winter depression (which i think is lack of sunlight?)
03:52	Guest54	well, it's different for every vitamin
03:52	muurkha	Oh man. Do you have diabetes?
03:52	Guest54	probably not, how would i know?
03:52	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> oof. your foot ok now?
03:52	Guest54	since about mid-2020. i am amazed how much a body can heal if you give it time.
03:52	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> but yeah, i get low mood over winter, hits me jan/feb/mar time
03:53	muurkha	Your urine would be sweet, you would pee a lot, there are a bunch of other symptoms
03:53	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> i'm in the uk, so we have winter 75% of the year
03:53	MTDiscord	<PrairieWind> winter 75%
03:53	MTDiscord	<PrairieWind> how about wind
03:53	MTDiscord	<PrairieWind> I get that 97% of the time
03:53	Guest54	AncientMariner, a test costs 30 euros, but you can probably get enough vitamin D capsules for that without a test. there is a “too much” level though, AFAIK.
03:54	MTDiscord	<PrairieWind> here, it seems like there are 2 seasons...winter and summer.
03:54	Guest54	long-term vitamin b12 deficiency can affect the nervous system apparently. my doctors told me i'll not have that, but a friend of mine told me a relative of her basically appeared like she had dementia because of vitamin b12 deficiency.
03:54	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> i was taking supplements until start of winter, but kinda gave up after suffering long covid for a few years, just assumed i was fucked and not recovering
03:55	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> i probably need to go and get a blood test, and get checked out
03:55	Guest54	one doc said that basically 90% of people should take low doses of vitamin D in the winter or so
03:55	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> though our health service is a little stretched and if you ain't seriously ill, probably ain't getting an appointment
03:56	muurkha	Guest54: you would probably know but https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diabetes#Signs_and_symptoms
03:56	MTDiscord	<PrairieWind> little stretched?
03:56	muurkha	> The classic symptoms of untreated diabetes are unintended weight loss, polyuria (increased urination), polydipsia (increased thirst), and polyphagia (increased hunger).[18]
03:56	MTDiscord	<PrairieWind> sounds like an understatement
03:57	MTDiscord	<PrairieWind> when I ride along on the ambulance, there is usually only a few rooms open if at all in the emergency department
03:57	Guest54	muurkha i had a phase where i was peeing a lot but that was when i was living with a friend and i strongly suspect now that it is related to something she likes to cook because i haven't had it when i was at my place (i.e. i would cook).
03:58	Guest54	> Your urine would be sweet
03:58	Guest54	guess i better drink my own piss, just to be sure ;)
03:58	Guest54	anyways, i also had hair loss
03:59	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> oof
03:59	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> haha, the sweet urine comment took me the same way
03:59	Guest54	apparently that can be connected to vitamin D according to one brochure at the doctor's office
03:59	Guest54	the problem is, it's top hair loss, not, body hair or beard
04:00	Guest54	i'll never become a femboy like that!
04:00		MTDiscord joined #minetest
04:00	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> oof, did you go to shave it all off?
04:00	Guest54	no
04:00	muurkha	Guest54: yeah, it's definitely an easy way to test, but cultural taboos prevent it in many circumstances
04:00	Guest54	muurkha no one but this IRC channel has to know
04:01	Guest54	oh about the bug i wanted to report, give me a moment
04:01	Guest54	maybe i can make your game crash AncientMariner
04:01	muurkha	Guest54: in areas of Africa where they couldn't afford the tests, they would advise patients to pee outside the house at night, then look in the morning to see if it had attracted ants
04:01	Guest54	that sounds smart
04:01	muurkha	that way you can leave the urine tasting to the ants instead of doing it manually
04:01	muurkha	well
04:01	muurkha	orally
04:02	muurkha	but I'd think that in Germany it would be easy enough to just get a quantitative urine sugar test from a lab
04:04	Guest54	AncientMariner how could i skip the end credits?
04:04	Guest54	oh sneak
04:04	Guest54	it's kinda hidden (i am testing on a hidpi screen)
04:06	Guest54	i think one of the funniest mineclone2 bugs was that the screwdriver could change the orientations of portals
04:06	Guest54	i left corrupted portals everywhere
04:06	Guest54	and few figured it out
04:07	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> ooof
04:07	Guest54	AncientMariner has the screwdriver been removed?
04:07	Guest54	i can't find it
04:07	Guest54	maybe it has a different name in the creative inv
04:08	Guest54	i just crafted it
04:08	Guest54	it's so useful (and NOT IN MINECRAFT!!!)
04:09	Guest54	AncientMariner another funny bug was: 1. books are enchantable. 2. enchanted books do not stack. 3. unenchanted books stack. 4. stacks of books are enchantable. 5. one enchanted book + lots of books = maximum level enchantment.
04:09	Guest54	i wonder if that was ever fixed hehe
04:13	Guest54	AncientMariner thank you for explaining the reasoning behind the LBM story btw. i would solve it differently btw, by only defining aliases if mesecons mod is not loaded. good enough for you?
04:14	Guest54	(or possibly giving players an option to turn it off)
04:15	Guest54	also congrats, the crash i wanted to find is not possible
04:26	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> erm, i'm still making my mind up on things, i have some time as it isn't the most pressing priority
04:26	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> and until that time, i'll keep mulling it over. and as i learn more i'll see if my thinking changes
04:27	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> good to hear crash is gone
04:27	Guest54	i just wanted to know if there is something obviously wrong with it
04:27	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> mobs?
04:27	Guest54	the crash was interleaving two end portals to make the game fill the entire plane with end portal
04:27	Guest54	may be i do not remember it enough anymore
04:27	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> it's a reasonable suggestion, i'll have to digest it
04:28	Guest54	i like that you think from constraints btw
04:28	Guest54	bad developers think from solutions
04:28	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> you sure like your niche bugs 🙂
04:28	Guest54	“i have a hammer, where is the nail”
04:28	Guest54	oh, i was once the only user on clamity who had end portal blocks
04:29	Guest54	i think those were a few characters to long for the usual injection exploits
04:29	Guest54	so it's a riddle how i got them ;)
04:29	Guest54	you can still do havoc with them, if you get them
04:29	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> i have no doubt in my mind that you can probably break things quicker than i can fix them
04:29	Guest54	e.g. create a fully formed end portal at end spawn
04:30	Guest54	to make end off-limits
04:30	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> you've got a rather devious and inquisitive mind
04:30	Guest54	i think there used to be a delay before the teleport, so it was not possible, but i am unsure, maybe i remember it wrong
04:30	Guest54	well, when cora was maintainer, about one third of commits were dealing with regressions from previous things
04:31	Guest54	if you are doing better than that, you are probably good :P
04:31	Guest54	(yes, i counted them once, maybe it was only for that period)
04:31	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> erm, i've seen plenty of own goals tbf
04:31	Guest54	well, that's what reviews are for IMO. i always try to prove that the code i review is utter garbage.
04:32	Guest54	if i can't do that, yep, it's good
04:32	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> i became maintainer start of december, and it feels like i'm just getting out of firefighting mode
04:32	Guest54	i expect no less from anyone else
04:32	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> i can now think what i want to work on, rather than what i need to work on
04:32	Guest54	what fires did you fight?
04:32	Guest54	like what was the biggest thing
04:32	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> performance, crashes
04:33	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> but performance has been the biggie for me
04:33	Guest54	that's weird, because i think the performance stuff had been cleared up, ig. it got worse in 2022 again
04:34	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> kelp has been broken for a while
04:34	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> sculk was new
04:34	Guest54	i mean basically there were a few reasons for bad performance: 1. someone tests only on fast internet with high end PC 2. lots of strings are created (lua hashes each string, which makes it slow) 3. something is accidentally quadratic or cubic and hogs CPU or RAM or both
04:34	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> mobs, well, that has been there a while, and was almost migrated across and then wasn't
04:34	Guest54	wait, kelp is still broken?
04:34	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> no, i've replaced node timer kelp with abm kelp
04:34	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> in some cases gone from 20% cpu to 2%
04:35	Guest54	i mean, kelp was unbroken at one time, then someone replaced it and from then on it sucked
04:35	Guest54	nice that you fixed it
04:35	Guest54	node timers on stuff that replicates itself are funny
04:35	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> it still needs work
04:35	Guest54	it's basically a memory leak
04:35	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> it was weirdly over complicated
04:35	Guest54	wdym
04:35	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> the notes in the code says it was for performance reasons, yet i cannot imagine it was ever profiled
04:36	Guest54	haha
04:36	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> there was a whole extra layer of complexity for creating timers, starting timers, persisting timers
04:36	Guest54	so once, cora made the new fire, exactly like minecraft. so that minecraft-like structures work well. she used a node timer.
04:36	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> my eyes glazed over
04:36	Guest54	now the problem is that fire copies itself a lot. the timer was used for the remaining life of the fire.
04:37	Guest54	so in the review and testing process i set a forest on fire and played for 40 minutes on a machine with 2GB RAM
04:37	Guest54	turns out that isn't enough for a full-blown forest fire
04:37	Guest54	the solution was to probabilistically kill the fire (using an ABM maybe, i do not know)
04:37	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> i think some things have progressed. i hear lava was historically bad, and a performance challenge, and we used to have abm hell
04:38	Guest54	so now you have on_step hell? :D
04:38	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> i think there was already an element of that
04:38	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> mobs was pretty horrific
04:39	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> cora kicked off some refactoring which has made things a lot easier
04:39	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> i think the problem was because it was a 5000 line file, with ridiculous functions, people couldn't see the wood for the trees
04:39	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> so cora, pulled a lot out into functions, and it makes it a lot easier to see what should and shouldn't be there
04:39	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> i've continued those refactorings
04:40	Guest54	is there any way external mods can register structures? i remember proposing a structure block that unpack itself, so you can have schematics that place multiple rooms that place other rooms.
04:40		Guest5416 joined #minetest
04:40	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> interesting idea
04:40	Guest5416	was that done?
04:40	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> my knowledge on structures is pretty limited, so i probably cannot comment at present
04:40	Guest5416	oh okay
04:40	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> i know cora worked on some structure api stuff
04:41	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> but i've not looked into it too much
04:41	Guest5416	btw, regarding the text rendering thing i am doing, anything you need?
04:41	Guest5416	for reference, i can render this in pure lua: https://mister-muffin.de/p/Lh5L.png
04:41	Guest5416	and no, i have no idea how the arabic is supposed to look like
04:41	Guest5416	i only know it is wrong
04:41	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> it could help, i'd have to understand it more, but we have like 189 images for signs, so i'm open to ideas and suggestions
04:42	Guest5416	no i mean for the text for signs
04:42	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> (i meant for the text, 189 text images i think)
04:42	Guest5416	oh lol
04:42	Guest5416	for each of the 189 supported characters?
04:42	Guest5416	you mean that?
04:43	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> i think so
04:43	Guest5416	if so, i saw that PR and it made me write to want that renderer
04:43	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> that's 189/600 yet to be prefixed assets too, so 2 birds 1 stone, maybe
04:43	Guest5416	wellllllll
04:43	Guest5416	i have a suggestion
04:44	Guest5416	remove the letters and depend on my unicode text renderer once i put it on cdb :P
04:44	Guest5416	unless you want people to have texture packs that include fonts
04:44	Guest5416	which is a weird idea if you ask me, because it would limit stuff to ascii
04:44	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> once you get it on content db, i'll check it out and see if i can comprehend it, but i'm open to improvements 🙂
04:44	Guest5416	or something like that
04:45	Guest5416	well, do you have any requirements for the font rendering?
04:45	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> i don't presently know enough about the implementation to know what i'd need 🙂
04:45	Guest5416	well, requirements strictly come before an implementation
04:46	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> yup. i have 70 bugs i've marked as elevated priority: https://git.minetest.land/MineClone2/MineClone2/issues?q=&type=all&state=open&labels=186&milestone=0&assignee=0&poster=0
04:46	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> i don't see this above them to be honest
04:46	Guest5416	if you just want “monochrome text on a sign”, i can probably do that better (as in: unicode, but bidirectional text looks still messed up until someone implements the algorithm from UAX#9 or so)
04:46	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> so i doubt i could commit time to it until i've made headway in that
04:47	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> for me, just having text on a sign of a reasonable colour (darker font on light signs, lighter font on dark signs) is probably a big step forward
04:47	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> or at least some configurability on colour
04:48	Guest5416	so having a single solid color you can configure is something the “one image for each letter” approach can't do?
04:49	Guest5416	i thought there was a texture modifier for making one color another or so, well, i hate texmods, so i am not going to look :P
04:49	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> i cannot say, i don't know enough 🙂
04:49	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> but the person who last worked on it told me lettering and colour was a bit of a nightmare
04:50	Guest5416	oh, i can see why
04:50	Guest5416	well, you saw my picture, it proves i can do colors!
04:51	Guest5416	AncientMariner if you ever despair about bugs, just look at mojang bug tracker. they have stuff like “bedrock is missing in the snapshot“ with people falling out of the world and so on.
04:51	Guest5416	like you probably don't have bugs that bad
04:52	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> the thing you shared looked pretty neat
04:52	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> oh i know that. i'm quite ruthless. if it ain't meta, i don't care for now
04:52	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> there is 770 bugs, they ain't getting mopped up any time soon
04:52	Guest5416	or axes not being able to be enchanted lol
04:52	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> but thing things that ruin a play through need to be fixed
04:53	Guest5416	yes, which is why a friend of my strongly suggested to have everyone do a speedrun before each release
04:53	Guest5416	no cheats, no creative
04:53	Guest5416	just speedrun the thing
04:53	Guest5416	you'll figure out if it sucks
04:53	Guest5416	apparently i can no longer push text off signs
04:53	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> if you're volunteering 😉
04:54	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> i'm a proper turtle player
04:54	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> but i heavily play test
04:54	Guest5416	what's turtle player?
04:54	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> https://tenor.com/view/guild-wars2-gw2-guild-wars-end-of-dragons-eo-d-gif-22530689
04:54	Guest5416	i am not volunteering. i just mean i often have seen bugs in mcl2 (before your time) that would have been found by someone simply playing the game.
04:54	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> not so rapid
04:55	Guest5416	like “take the item and see if it does what the thing should do instead of believing the code works”
04:55	Guest5416	for every new feature
04:55	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> yup
04:55	Guest5416	i still do not understand turtle
04:55	Guest5416	you maintain defensively?
04:55	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> basically, it's the opposite of a speed run
04:56	Guest5416	oh i see
04:56	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> from rts games, where you resource up, max tech tree, build biggest army and go for it
04:56	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> so overprepare and a half 🙂
04:56	Guest5416	but speedrun just means to get to defeat the dragon
04:56	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> i've never beaten the dragon 🙂
04:56	Guest5416	i wonder if mcl_speedrun still works haha
04:56	Guest5416	do you know that mod?
04:56	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> yeah, afcm's mod
04:56	Guest5416	AFCMS made it (or how was that name)
04:57	Guest5416	i admit, i first wrote ACFMS and then corrected myself
04:57	Guest5416	oh let's see if i can find a dupe
04:57	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> easy to remember. (arsenal football club, m)
04:57	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> (that's probably not how he came up with it, but it's how i remember it)
04:57	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> (with an optional s on the end)
04:58	Guest5416	btw, some stuff does not work in creative i think
04:58	Guest5416	is it on purpose?
04:59	Guest5416	like nether portal lighting or water propagation (or i am doing it wrong, i hope it was not river water lol)
04:59	Guest5416	it was river water
04:59	Guest5416	so scratch that
04:59	Guest5416	but the portal, is that on purpose or also user error (i.e. my fault for doing something wrong)
04:59	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> what do you mean by nether portal lighting?
05:00	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> if you find something, assume it isn't on purpose
05:00	Guest5416	i think i was not able to create the portal with the flint and steel in creative
05:00	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> only thing that seems to be on purpose is faster crops
05:00	Guest5416	why that though
05:00	Guest5416	crops are ridiculously fast growing now
05:01	Guest5416	like you can live off a 3×3 farm
05:01	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> well you need a lot of wheat for cows for leather
05:01	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> it's not ideal, but not the most pressing priority
05:01	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> it didn't but me on any playthrough i've done
05:01	Guest5416	it's more a question of what it makes this game
05:01	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> mc is ridiculously painfully slow on that
05:01	Guest5416	like no one is going to build a big farm if during building the farm you realize you don't need it
05:02	Guest5416	i remember that some people built huge fields of wheat
05:02	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> making something agonising doesn't make a good game neccessarily
05:02	Guest5416	now it is no longer needed, i am torn on it
05:02	Guest5416	on the one hand, it is grinding if you do it
05:02	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> we are thinking of removing catch up off the abm
05:02	Guest5416	on the other hand, it does mean you have to find other ways
05:02	Guest5416	well, then it only grows if you are looking, doesn't it?
05:03	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> i used to play old school runescape. i gave 3 years of my life to that
05:03	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> grindy doesn't neccessarily mean good
05:03	Guest5416	wasn't the issue that it grows slower when you are looking rn?
05:03	Guest5416	no, grindy does not mean good
05:03	Guest5416	do you know dungeon crawl stone soup?
05:03	Guest5416	a roguelike with two funny default bindings, autoexplore and autofight
05:03	Guest5416	it keeps the developers honest, no grinding can occur
05:03	Guest5416	because if there were grinding, people would just mash these buttons
05:04	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> i have no idea what "rogue" is, but i've seen countless references to roguelike
05:04	Guest5416	AncientMariner https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/17/Rogue_Screen_Shot_CAR.PNG
05:05	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> my philosophy is about balance. too easy, you complete it quick, it isn't a challenge, and you're bored. and too hard, and you give up, because what is the point
05:05	Guest5416	that is rogue: think diablo, but on an old terminal, turn-based and with permadeath
05:05	Guest5416	do you know the thing about fun though?
05:05	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> sorry, what is fun?
05:06	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> but i've never played diablo
05:06	Guest5416	AncientMariner dwarf fortress is fun (allegedly), see this graphic for explanation: https://dwarffortresswiki.org/images/4/40/FunComic.png
05:07	Guest5416	the counterintuitive result is that losing is fun
05:07	Guest5416	if it is done well
05:07	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> oooof
05:07	Guest5416	you can see this in multiplayer games where only one person can win but everyone had fun
05:07	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> i've only had that with one game. project zomboid
05:07	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> "this is how you died"
05:08	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> you're gonna day in a day, then 3, then a week, then 2 months
05:08	Guest5416	in magic the gathering a friend once told me it's not enough that you win, the others should not resent you for it
05:08	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> i love that game
05:08	Guest5416	“you're gonna day in a day, then 3, then a week, then 2 months” i do not understand
05:08	Guest5416	pls explain
05:09	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> basically, it's brutal survival game, one bite and you're done
05:09	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> and you generally suck at first
05:09	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> and will die
05:09	Guest5416	oww
05:09	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> and you get a little bit less dreadful each time
05:09	Guest5416	have you ever played cataclysm dark days ahead?
05:09	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> but zombie apocalyse, everyone is dead, and you will soon die
05:09	Guest5416	it's a turn-based roguelike, basically zombie apocalypse and everything else happened at the same time
05:10	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> nope, but they actually have a level called a really cd:da
05:10	Guest5416	hehe
05:10	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> basically, everything has gone to shit, you're drunk, cut, your house is on fire, oh, and it's on insane zombie levels
05:10	Guest5416	you can make cars in cdda and the counter for wheels only says “enough” if you have enough wheels
05:10	Guest5416	and you can start with different boni and mali
05:10	Guest5416	like start as a chain smoker with one last pack of cigs
05:11	Guest5416	good luck (withdrawal effects in the game are mean)
05:11	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> it sounds like zomboid is quite influenced by it
05:11	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> give it a try, it's awesome
05:12	Guest5416	cdda is so screwed, if you want to report an interface bug you should check before if your character is schizophrenic (because that does lead to interface screw in some way, e.g. monsters are rendered that do not exist)
05:13	Guest5416	my first character in cdda died because it was cold and the character had a lighter and i was like ok light a fire
05:13	Guest5416	turns out smoke inhalation is a thing
05:13	Guest5416	drink water without cooking it? puke your guts out (which reduces satiation) etc.
05:13	Guest5416	basically, the game needs no tips about what's a horrible idea, if it's a bad idea IRL, it's a bad idea in the game
05:14	Guest5416	well, except for cool things like combining hairspray, lighter and tape :D
05:15	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> sounds like zomboid is heavily inspired by it then
05:15	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> anyways. it's 5am, i better sleep 🙂
05:16	Guest5416	here it's 6 AM
05:16	Guest5416	ig you are in UK?
05:16	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> been a pleasure talking to you. good night
05:16	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> yup
05:16	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> where are you based?
05:16	Guest5416	good night
05:16	Guest5416	i live in berlin
05:16	Guest5416	it's a nice city, but other germans seem to hate it
05:17	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> ah nice
05:17	Guest5416	> The origin of the name Berlin is uncertain. It may have roots in the language of West Slavic inhabitants of the area of today's Berlin, and may be related to the Old Polabian stem berl-/birl- ("swamp").
05:17	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> if you like it, it's the main thing
05:17	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> oof
05:17	Guest5416	i am a little trash goblin living in a swamp hehe
05:18	Guest5416	the bad thing is that the rents have risen so much
05:18	Guest5416	years ago i asked why people set cars on fire
05:18	Guest5416	after all, the cars are insured probably
05:19	Guest5416	one answer was that the goal is to affect the rents, because people with expensive cars may not like it getting burned lol
05:19	Guest5416	i don't really believe it tbh
05:20	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> interesting
05:22	Guest5416	AncientMariner what do campfires do btw except set you on fire?
05:22	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> set mobs on fire
05:22	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> and apparently cook something, but not in mcl2
05:22	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> i've never ever made one in mc or mcl2
05:22	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> (except for testing)
05:23	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> prairie did mention they're useful for iron golem farms
05:23	Guest5416	so it's just a trap
05:23	Guest5416	lol why is there a hamburger in the creative menu
05:23	Guest5416	that's probably not in minecraft
05:23	Guest5416	creative menu hehe
05:23	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> ah the hamburger. that was very much one of those "not in mc" things
05:23	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> it errr, caused upset
05:24	Guest5416	i like how it looks out of place haha
05:24	Guest5416	it also looks so fat, fills the frame nicely
05:25	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> i'm regularly using it to pull my villagers
05:25	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> plus, my kids loved it
05:25	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> they spent a full day just trying to make burgers
05:25	Guest5416	hahahaha
05:25	Guest5416	what is the recipe?
05:25	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> bread cooked steak bread
05:25	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> can't remember if it's horizontal or vertical
05:25	Guest5416	missing veggies, but i'll let it slide hehe
05:26	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> i'm saving people having to pick it out before eating ;)(
05:26	Guest5416	what's the name of the thing that plays the music records?
05:26	Guest5416	i can not find it in the creative inventory
05:26	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> jukebox
05:27	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> (does music not bring it up in search?)
05:27	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> could need a description tweak if not
05:27	Guest5416	got it
05:27	Guest5416	it is not found with ”music” or “record”
05:27	Guest5416	maybe the search needs to check the description or so?
05:28	Guest5416	oh the search only searches the localized version
05:28	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> i think it does (we added it for mushrooms)
05:28	Guest5416	interesting
05:28	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> for nether shrooms
05:28	Guest5416	let me test sth really quick with the juke box hehe
05:30	Guest5416	first, the background music overlays the jukebox, is that intended?
05:30	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> nah, i think it needs to be better integrated
05:30	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> good catch
05:31	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> description = S("Crimson Fungus"), _tt_help = S("Crimson fungus is a mushroom found in the nether's crimson forest."), _doc_items_longdesc = S("Crimson fungus is a mushroom found in the nether's crimson forest."),
05:31	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> i think this picks up mushroom, so probably will work for music
05:31	Guest5416	the localized version!
05:31	Guest5416	i searched for music but it should have been musik
05:32	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> interesting
05:33	Guest5416	also music record play state does not survive exiting the game and entering it again
05:33	Guest5416	in singleplayer
05:33	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> is that an issue?
05:33	Guest5416	no, i just noticed and i wonder if i should have expected that.
05:33	Guest5416	i mean, minetest is really bad for “synchronize sound” use cases.
05:34	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> i don't think you can even find out if a song is playing, so you start and hope or time it
05:34	Guest5416	the only real problem i see is music disc + background music
05:34	Guest5416	it sounds bad
05:34	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> i bet
05:34	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> i guess music discs aren't good until i fix that
05:34	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> i'll hopefully get to it before release
05:35	Guest5416	well, they were good before the music was added, but that was probably before your time ig
05:35	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> yup
05:35	Guest5416	then again the background music is more calm so i like it more
05:35	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> i've only been around since oct
05:35	Guest5416	than the hectic music discs
05:36	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> yeah, we got some really great contributions
05:36	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> we're quite fortunate
05:36	Guest5416	you know what, i remember with music discs someone also renamed them without using aliases
05:36	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> we added 3 songs in last release, then got 8 more and 2 updates
05:36	Guest5416	(and i fixed it lol)
05:36	Guest5416	long time ago
05:37	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> i bet
05:37	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> this bringing back old memories? 🙂
05:38	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> (damn history repeating itself)
05:38	Guest5416	yes, bad memories. it takes so much longer to fix a bad thing that made it into a world you are playing on than do it right the first time.
05:38	Guest5416	and the problem was, most of the time it was not that the people were stupid or so
05:38	Guest5416	they just commited the first thing that looked like a solution
05:38	Guest5416	i.e. “we need to do something, this is something, let's do it”
05:39	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> i don't mind mistakes, but i get annoyed when people are disrespectful of users
05:39	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> like they know an issue, but don't care about the impact
05:39	Guest5416	uh, i guess it's lizzy then you do not like?
05:39	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> lizzy was before my time
05:40	Guest5416	well, i once reported some lag issue in mcl2 and it was renamed into ”post your computers specs”
05:40	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> i like them as a person from my short conversations
05:40	Guest5416	and everyone made fun of me from having a worse graphics card
05:40	Guest5416	the error, obviously, was something else
05:40	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> yeah, that's quite annoying
05:40	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> i saw that issue, and did wonder
05:40	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> my pc is a beast, but i'm not coding for me
05:40	Guest5416	it was one of the reasons for forking, when people can try but are not even trying
05:41	Guest5416	when i made a small music synthesizer software a long time ago, i made it on the worst computer i had
05:41	Guest5416	so it does not drop frames on newer ones
05:42	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> i have a 7 year old hdd that i use to test from time to time
05:42	Guest5416	you can see this with minetest engine too – so far they have always fixed it, but i think at one point sprites were not visible without shaders.
05:42	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> hdd does seem to have biggest impact imho
05:42	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> unless of course a village is being spawned, then it's stop the world for 10-30 seconds
05:43	Guest5416	btw, if you want to reduce asset size, you may want to reduce transfer size. on-disk i think every small file takes at least a block (though it may be different now?)
05:43	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> the funny thing is, the people with great pc's have disposable income and can just buy mc
05:43	Guest5416	yes
05:43	Guest5416	and mc does not even run on most computers that minetest runs on
05:44	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> the people we're making a difference for are those that cannot afford it, or certainly not as a family
05:44	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> i had mc, but only 1 copy, my kids could not play together
05:44	Guest5416	for me it's a mark of arrogance if someone responds to a performance issue with “just buy a better computer”
05:45	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> this gave them the opportunity to play together, and to help them
05:45	Guest5416	i mean, most performance issues are at least quadratic
05:45	Guest5416	no amount of better computer is fixing quadratic
05:45	Guest5416	i mean most i have noticed
05:45	Guest5416	playing minetest together is such a nice thing
05:45	Guest5416	my ex made an 8 segment display in mcl2
05:45	Guest5416	on the nether roof
05:45	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> the other aspect, is if it runs dog slow, it cannot scale, and multiplayer is screwed
05:46	Guest5416	i believe that was one of the factors why cora focused on performance
05:46	Guest5416	the original fires were just lag machines
05:46	Guest5416	set a forest on fire, server lags as long as the block is active
05:46	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> but watching my kids game together, it's one of the reasons i stuck around. watching them enjoy means something
05:46	Guest5416	that is also why anarchy servers are so good
05:47	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> so i do feel i wanted to give something back
05:47	Guest5416	you basically have people who cheat and steal (the nice ones) and ones who crash the server (evil ones)
05:47	Guest5416	and both give you free testing hehe
05:47	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> it's fine, we can turn off fire spread
05:47	Guest5416	you no longer need to
05:48	Guest5416	though i wonder
05:48	Guest5416	does fire spread in protected blocks?
05:48	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> from a playing perspective, yes
05:48	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> idk
05:48	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> fire is apparently unstoppable. not good being performant, if functionality it's meh
05:49	Guest5416	as i remember it, from a playing perspective, fire spread is exactly like minecraft (modulo the timer issuer), so unless your house is hit by a stray lightning bolt …
05:49	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> we have been trying to ensure protection mods are supported
05:49	Guest5416	i think it dies out
05:49	Guest5416	eventually
05:49	Guest5416	after everything has burned down
05:49	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> apparently in mcl2, it don't stop
05:49	Guest5416	hmm
05:49	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> oh, after everything burnt down
05:49	Guest5416	maybe cora did not port everything?
05:49	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> i couldn't say
05:50	Guest5416	i'll test the texture thing btw
05:51	Guest5416	commit f6d6a59c013881f26cf12a31279b8bf2ececb78a seems misguided, as you may want to have a different item image than texture on the thing
05:52	Guest5416	just because the images are identical it does not mean they are the same purpose
05:52	Guest5416	or i am misunderstanding it
05:53	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> but if they're the same file, you cannot have them different, and if you need them, it's best to add them in then
05:54	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> i'm not sure what is the best option
05:54	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> but the pr is an improvement over what was there
05:54	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> and that is my policy in general
05:54	Guest5416	you cannot have them different – well you can with a texture pack
05:55	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> but they'd need a different name for tp to differ them?
05:55	Guest5416	yes
05:55	Guest5416	what if a texture pack only wants to change the item image, but leave the texture for the frame intact
05:55	Guest5416	am i misunderstanding it?
05:55	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> i don't disagree with you, but did it work that way before?
05:56	Guest5416	you have to ask the author of the original code probably
05:56	MTDiscord	<AncientMariner> actually, you might be right
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13:57	lissobone	hi
13:58	lissobone	malice with intent
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22:57	imi	hi, is there a way to change the password of the admin user from the ncurses console?
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23:30	Guest54	AncientMariner why was (can?) this thing not be done with node groups? https://git.minetest.land/MineClone2/MineClone2/pulls/3567/files
23:31	Guest54	in general, i have noticed that some mods include lists of other mods nodes (or lists of groups) to regulate interaction
23:32	Guest54	while others use groups so that the other mods need to opt-in.
23:33	Guest54	in this case i don't understand why there isn't an _mcl_lantern_allowed_non_solid_floor group
23:33	Guest54	as the the logic of mcl_lanterns internally does check for groups
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23:34	Guest54	i could understand it if the interaction list would change during the game, but i don't see that here: https://git.minetest.land/MineClone2/MineClone2/src/branch/master/mods/ITEMS/mcl_lanterns/init.lua
23:39	Guest54	in the end, it looks to me as if having other mods opt in would save about 40 SLOC in that file (out of about 260 SLOC total), so either the thing is a bit too complex for its own good or i am missing something important
23:39	Guest54	and since it does use groups internally, i'd bet on the latter, so any idea what it could be?
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23:47	Guest54	AncientMariner also it seems none of the textures i use were renamed and i am glad
23:48	Guest54	well, or so i hope

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