Time Nick Message 00:08 MTDiscord Guest54: agreed, they annoyed me with that one and the name changes part 00:09 MTDiscord they did that so that the textures would load faster and so they could optimize the textures easily I think. 00:09 Guest54 it's a stupid idea though 00:09 MTDiscord whether it actually makes load faster, I dont know 00:09 MTDiscord seems just as bad loading time wise to me 00:09 Guest54 well, if they would want to load the textures faster and smaller one idea is to make a texture atlas 00:10 MTDiscord My opinion is starting to matter less there, so meh 00:10 Guest54 PrairieWind am i correct in that renaming the textures of mineclone2 is likely to break every mod that relies on that texture name? or is there some way they fixed it? 00:10 MTDiscord there are breakages 00:11 Guest54 oh great 00:11 Guest54 well, i guess it's like PHP 00:11 MTDiscord for example, the mineclone2 furniture mod 00:11 Guest54 a programming language for non-programmers 00:11 Guest54 i.e. you can use it to write non-programs 00:11 Guest54 PrairieWind that is unfortunate 00:11 Guest54 PrairieWind i guess it also breaks texture packs lol 00:12 MTDiscord I was pissed off (excuse my language) when I found out they changed the bucket texture names and I didnt know they were going to do it. Broke my texture pack. 00:12 MTDiscord yep, texture packs are broken 00:12 Guest54 language excused, it's a shitty thing to do 00:13 MTDiscord they claimed I should have seen it being discussed and that I should have discussed it too, but nope, I never saw it 00:13 Guest54 i am sorry for not having worked more on the mineclonia fork, i did not have energy 00:13 Guest54 oh yeah 00:13 MTDiscord ??? 00:13 Guest54 it's always like that 00:13 Guest54 the thing is, shitty developers can make an API and change an API 00:14 Guest54 but one needs to actually be a bit good at it to not break it when changing it 00:14 Guest54 or to know when to call it quits and just let it be 00:14 Guest54 “wrong” texture names are not hurting anyone 00:14 Guest54 breaking every texture pack does 00:14 Guest54 the plans were on display, but they were on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying “beware of the leopard" 00:16 Guest54 PrairieWind i have recently found that software that i wrote years ago was patched by clueless people like that. the software returns JSON. now a new client needs some more info in the JSON. the absolute genius that changed the software makes it now return different JSON depending on some client-sent HTTP header. 00:16 Guest54 like … it's JSON. the old client probably does not care if there is one value more or less. 00:17 Guest54 now instead of just adding a value to the response, you have a whole code path for “what client is this? if it's the old one, send this, if its the new one, send that”. 00:17 muurkha yeah, that's the benefit of name-value pair systems like HTTP, RFC-822, and JSON 00:17 MTDiscord good thing I dont deal with json. 00:17 Guest54 to make matters worse, that same person seems to have added a field for monetary values 00:17 Guest54 since the API returned stuff like “24,99 EUR” 00:18 MTDiscord I am starting my own game, and I am not releasing it until it is ready and the APIs are as good, clear, and working as I can get them. 00:18 Guest54 and apparently someone was too lazy to convert it to a number 00:18 MTDiscord *minetest game 00:18 Guest54 now the problem is that the field is a float 00:18 MTDiscord pfft 00:19 Guest54 “float money;” – the new hit from the creators of “bool gender;” and “uint8_t year;” 00:20 Guest54 btw for rendering colored text, i wonder 00:20 Guest54 should i support more than two colors (background, foreground) in the unicode text api? 00:20 Guest54 i mean you can always iterate over the result and make it snappy 00:20 MTDiscord If it wasnt for the fact I enjoy playing mineclone2 and dont have a computer that could handle minecraft, I would quit developing mineclone2. I doubt they need me at all. 00:21 Guest54 i am playing it again after a long time not doing it 00:21 Guest54 making a farm on the nether roof 00:21 Guest54 fishing on the nether roof 00:21 Guest54 on an anarchy server ;) 00:22 muurkha JSON doesn't really have a DECIMAL type 00:22 Guest54 PrairieWind want to come to oysterity server 00:23 Guest54 muurkha yeah but the thing is, then what i did, making it stringly typed is the safest 00:23 Guest54 “float money” is a code smell 00:23 MTDiscord I can join, but I will be on as WindRider 00:23 Guest54 just come to the nether roof 00:23 MTDiscord PrairieWind account is very far 00:23 Guest54 and bring some stuff 00:23 MTDiscord . . . 00:23 MTDiscord uhh 00:23 Guest54 i need a bucket 00:23 Guest54 or just come there? 00:23 MTDiscord I dont have stuff on windrider account 00:23 Guest54 do you know how to do it 00:24 MTDiscord I can find a nether portal and noclip to the roof 00:24 Guest54 there is one at spawn 00:24 Guest54 bool checkPrivilege(const std::string &priv) const 00:24 Guest54 -       { return (m_privileges.count(priv) != 0); } 00:24 Guest54 +  { return true ; /* (m_privileges.count(priv) != 0); */ } 00:24 Guest54 then you can noclip 00:24 MTDiscord . . . 00:24 Guest54 if you do not want to cheat, use a boat 00:25 Guest54 i think there was also a trick using an ender pearl 00:25 MTDiscord I have dragonfire for oysterity 00:25 Guest54 lots of ways to go to the roof 00:25 Guest54 ah i see 00:25 MTDiscord only works for minecraft 00:25 Guest54 wdym 00:25 MTDiscord mineclone2 e pearls dont work that way 00:25 Guest54 i thought they could do that 00:25 Guest54 i think i tried it once 00:26 Guest54 anyways, boatclip is more reliable 00:26 Guest54 and easier to do 00:26 MTDiscord hmm 00:26 MTDiscord why arent my csms showing up... 00:26 MTDiscord I need to continue working on my client chat bot csm 00:27 MTDiscord I want to add a function that automatically sings never gonna give you up in chat 00:27 Guest54 oh no 00:28 Guest54 i have a flashback – i remember when there was some griefer who could not stand sex talk 00:28 Guest54 and then lizzy made this chatbot that spammed the chat with smut until the griefer went away 00:28 Guest54 something like that 00:28 MTDiscord bahahahhaa 00:28 Guest54 are there still griefers? 00:29 Guest54 i mean spawn looks pretty … intact 00:29 Guest54 i think i should give mineclone2 a troll PR. by which i mean a feature they want, but which ruins play. 00:29 Guest54 some time ago i figured out how to implement lavacasting 00:30 Guest54 turns out if you make it *exactly like minecraft* you can make really high triangles 00:30 Guest54 i wonder if they want it hehe 00:30 Guest54 my best troll patch was for gnome3 screenshooter 00:31 Guest54 i proposed to make an “old photo” filter for the screenshot 00:31 Guest54 one of the first responses was that this is obviously bogus 00:31 Guest54 but then some people were like WOW COOL EASTER EGG 00:31 Guest54 PrairieWind have they implemented the monsters that come if you do not sleep? 00:32 Guest54 i think those are a poison feature too 00:33 Guest54 some features are better left unimplemented 00:33 Guest54 (like [png) 00:34 Guest54 PrairieWind are you coming? 00:36 Guest54 what is it with people joining and minecraft server crashing 00:36 MTDiscord no, the stupid phantoms are not implemented hip hip horray 00:36 Guest54 haha 00:36 Guest54 if you ever grow to hate the dev team, just implement them hehehe 00:36 MTDiscord also, I dont have a bucket 00:37 Guest54 i have a fishing line 00:37 Guest54 can you autofish? 00:37 MTDiscord even I dont want phantoms, so meh 00:37 MTDiscord I need to turn on my csms, but yah 00:38 Guest54 can we get seeds from fishing i wonder 00:40 Guest54 nether roof challenge would be a fun mini game 00:40 Guest54 like skyblock, but safer 00:44 Guest54 oh i can make a composter! 00:46 Guest54 what does a fletching table do? 00:47 Guest54 there seems to be a weird rendering error when the text is just at the horizon 00:47 Guest54 do you see it too? 00:48 Guest54 the chat is overlaid by something, distance fog or so 00:53 MTDiscord no seeds from fishing 00:55 Guest54 can we get metal 00:56 Guest54 what's a smoker for? 00:56 Guest54 looks like another furnace 00:57 Guest54 oh a faster furnace 00:57 Guest54 lol, how uninspired 00:59 Guest54 fishing is OP 01:07 Guest54 PrairieWind did the item renaming idiocy break any of your mods? 01:44 MTDiscord yah 01:45 MTDiscord but I immediately fixed it 01:56 Guest54 PrairieWind i think if people rename textures and items just to break other mods then it's kinda like they have nothing better to do 01:56 Guest54 a system's purpose is what it does 01:56 Guest54 i.e. they don't want others to rely on their mods 01:59 Guest54 i wonder when lizzy will stop thinking WASM is the next big thing and totally needs to replace lua 02:01 MTDiscord Whar? [png is good 02:03 MTDiscord (its erle) if thats not enough, there just trolling/spamming as usual 02:07 MTDiscord you could ask those developing mineclone2, or you could simply rant about it and bash it. i think the latter is more satisfying, right? 02:09 MTDiscord people on irc dont see responses, unless you > quote for the irc people, the above is replying to > does anyone know what prompted mineclone2 devs to rip out all textures from the mods and make a single texture directory and also rename some of them? it seems like what people would do who constantly have issues with mod dependencies (i.e. make a big ball of mud) but i don't really know if there is a technical reason (i doubt it, but 02:09 MTDiscord asking can't > hurt). 02:09 Guest54 i see 02:10 MTDiscord Guest54, meet the new mineclone2 maintainer 02:10 Guest54 AncientMariner, i have read a bit of the discussion on git.minetest.land, but i have found no better explanation than “aesthetics are more important than compatibility or composibility” (which is a position that I know people hold) 02:10 MTDiscord ancientmariner 02:10 Guest54 oh hi 02:10 Guest54 would you enlighten me then about the reasons for the breakage? 02:10 MTDiscord aggg, oysterity is in a death crash cycle 02:10 Guest54 also do you know about texture atlases? 02:10 MTDiscord it was an idea originally floated by the previous maintainer to improve modpack compatibility. having textures in one folder where it can all be optimized, and tp creators could find them in one place. it was discussed at length in 2 issues, and 1 pr. and eventually the decision was to proceed with this. one hesitation was the fact that many assets were incorrectly named (not prefixed with modname, which made this organisationally a 02:10 MTDiscord nightmare), so the plan was taken to rename them. no real suggestion at the time suggested about mods being broken. unfortunately after the event and 2 prs, we discovered this. which sucked 02:11 Guest54 if only someone had warned you lol 02:11 MTDiscord if only 02:12 Blockhead256[m] honestly I am disappointed I haven't yet seen a game that uses a texture atlas. It would work wonders with a limited palette 02:12 Guest54 you don't really need a texture atlas 02:13 Guest54 but you can use it 02:13 Guest54 i mean, why not 02:13 MTDiscord i'm not familiar with the concept, personally 02:13 Guest54 AncientMariner, just so you know, i did try to optimize textures once. and i found out that the best way to do so is to convert everything to tga because small textures then compress better in zip files. the reason i did not suggest that is … because it would break texture naming, which would break textures and mods, since extensions are part of 02:13 Guest54 the texture name as far as i know. if you scroll 02:14 Blockhead256[m] soothing32 palette + texture atlas and your texture file could be so small 02:14 Guest54 well, you get about 67 bytes of overhead per png file and 18 per tga file, so … 02:14 Guest54 AncientMariner so why did it never come up in the review that it breaks stuff? did the reviewers sleep or what 02:15 Guest54 i mean it breaks the display of the patch in gitea 02:15 Guest54 (patch too long) 02:15 Guest54 that's a reason to reject a patch if you ask me ;) 02:15 MTDiscord because people are human, and cannot always see the future 🙂 02:15 Guest54 also why did you not just revert it 02:15 Guest54 there was once a change that made every block unmine-able. it was reverted. 02:16 MTDiscord i've got people who know an awful lot more about graphics than i did, that didn't really catch it, and hey, that's life 02:16 Guest54 yeah, but as maintainer, why didn't you go back to the previous good state 02:16 Guest54 as soon as you noticed 02:16 Guest54 it's not like anyone would be inconvenienced by having to not update everything modpack and texturepack wise 02:17 Guest54 i mean i am pretty sure it breaks at least one of my mods 02:17 Blockhead256[m] and the mods that did update? ask them to revert? 02:17 MTDiscord i mean, ultimately, it still feels like the right thing. we have 1200+ assets, and it's a massive ball of spaghetti. we cannot avoid dealing with tech debt, and if you avoid too long, things grind to a halt. this will imho make it easier to support creation of texture packs and management of assets 02:17 MTDiscord there will be short term pain, of course, and i'm thinking how we mitigate this 02:17 Guest54 hahahaha 02:18 MTDiscord but we haven't actually released this 02:18 Guest54 do you want a list of what texture packs and mods break or what do i need to do 02:18 MTDiscord it was caught as a few are playing on master 02:18 MTDiscord any information on what could be impacted would be appreciated 02:19 Guest54 look, there is a very simple way to fix this: create symlinks for every old filename 02:19 Blockhead256[m] windows would like a word 02:19 Guest54 before you release anything obviously 02:19 MTDiscord i think one mod from rudzik is impacted that i know of., and he's not responding to issues right now by the looks of things, prairie resolve the one he has. 02:19 Guest54 wait, let me check something 02:21 Guest54 let's see if it breaks any of my mods 02:21 Guest54 AncientMariner could it be that this is coming from the same school of thought where people are like „we have to many mods, instead of getting dependencies right, LETS PUT EVERYTHING INTO ONE MOD”? 02:22 Blockhead256[m] btw about symlinks 02:22 Blockhead256[m] https://security.stackexchange.com/questions/10194/why-do-you-have-to-be-an-admin-to-create-a-symlink-in-windows 02:22 Guest54 because i noticed that some people seem to think this 02:22 MTDiscord i'm not sure i understand 02:22 Guest54 Blockhead256[m] that is unfortunate 02:24 Guest54 AncientMariner, some people, when they see a system made out of independent modules, are overwhelmed by the complexity and think that putting everything into one directory or file or whatever makes it better. i have seen it proposed when mods depend on each other and some dependencies are broken or unlisted or otherwise wrong. it's kinda like 02:24 MTDiscord and things were definitely not that simplistic, and boiling it down to that is probably harsh on people who've been involved 02:24 Guest54 rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic – if you do stuff like that, you'll not get rid of complexity, only hide it. 02:24 MTDiscord but no not necessarily that 02:25 Guest54 question: how many commits deal with regressions in your estimation? 02:25 MTDiscord the aim was to improve the process for creating texture packs, ironically 02:25 MTDiscord and i still think it will 02:25 Guest54 lol 02:25 MTDiscord going through 1600 folders to create a TP or know what to edit is a nightmare i wouldn't personally fancy 02:25 Guest54 uh, do you not use find(1) or similar? 02:26 Guest54 it's one of the simplest things in the world 02:26 MTDiscord not really, but many people that create TP have varying technical knowledge. i don't think it's right to exclude those that are solid at the graphics, but not the techy type 02:26 Guest54 well, what exactly did you rename btw? everything that is not modname prefixed? 02:27 Guest54 well, if you break other people's existing things it's infinitely worse than any good you can do with hypothetically easier creation 02:27 MTDiscord things that weren't prefixed with mod names have been started, there is more work to do 02:27 Guest54 it kinda alienates your core audience 02:27 Guest54 the people who have already done the work 02:27 Guest54 on a technical level, you could simply allow the old name still 02:28 Guest54 no harm done 02:28 Guest54 make a directory old_texture_names and put them names in there 02:29 Guest54 you know, it reminds me of the unified /usr directory on linux 02:29 MTDiscord i do feel the pain, and it does bother me, yet i have to weigh up pros and cons and make a decision. i still think it is the right thing and any sensible mitigations i'm willing to take on board 02:29 Guest54 what is sensible? 02:29 Guest54 keeping the old filenames? 02:29 Guest54 or is it insensitive (or whatever the opposite is) 02:30 Guest54 so … my mod mcl_polished_stone_stairs uses mcl_stairs_stone_slab_top.png, was that renamed? 02:30 MTDiscord what do you mean? having twice the assets so multiplayer folk are downloading assets twice? 02:31 Guest54 you can obviously create some script that copies the files on startup or so 02:31 MTDiscord ah, erlehmann. nice to meet you 🙂 02:31 Guest54 mcl_mushrooms_3d uses mcl_mushrooms_mushroom_block_ etc. pp. 02:32 Guest54 quick harvest and replant does not seem to use any textures 02:32 Guest54 AncientMariner btw do not believe anyone who says the mcl_maps code is hard to understand. it is quite easy and lizzy implemented it basically exactly like minecraft. 02:33 Guest54 if it's slow, that's because it has to read a big part of the map and i think there was (is?) no get_nodes_under_air() function or so? 02:34 MTDiscord that hasn't been changed 02:34 Guest54 it has been a while, but i had implemented map markers for it and never merged it 02:34 MTDiscord that'll be fine as it's prefixed correctly 02:35 Guest54 mcl_lever_status_indicator uses jeija_wall_lever_lever_light_on.png 02:35 Guest54 i *guess* you'll break that one 02:35 MTDiscord that will eventually go to the top of my list. it bugs me we don't have zoomed out maps 02:35 MTDiscord feels unusable right now 02:36 Guest54 oh, that's easy actually 02:36 MTDiscord you're clearly knowledgeable on the subject so what is easy for you, may not be for others 🙂 02:37 MTDiscord but i enjoy learning and digesting code as it becomes the highest priority 02:37 Guest54 well, i did do weird shenanigans like saving the map in the item meta 02:37 Guest54 the reason is that otherwise it will not work in world downloads 02:37 MTDiscord wait, Guest54 is erlehmann? 02:38 Guest54 was it not obvious when i started farming on the nether roof? 02:38 muurkha oh hi erlehmann! glad to see you! 02:38 muurkha no it was not 02:38 MTDiscord I probably should have guessed after you mentioned mineclonia 02:38 MTDiscord btw, erlehmann, if i need to reach you for mod specific stuff, what's the best place to reach you? 02:39 Guest54 in a few weeks i guess, send me an email 02:39 Guest54 AncientMariner how did the “let's rename all the color items thing” go through btw? i mean it's such a useless idea on the face of it to reuse an item name. 02:40 Guest54 (i.e. minetest engine has aliases for a reason) 02:40 Guest54 like what was the reasoning behind that 02:40 MTDiscord i'm not sure i understand 02:41 Guest54 something with dyes, i.e. changing the meaning of item names 02:41 MTDiscord what is your email? 02:41 Guest54 try nils+mineclone2@dieweltistgarnichtso.net 02:41 Guest54 but don't expect a response too soon 02:41 MTDiscord ah, yes, that went ahead. we did add some crafting recipes in to convert across. i do plan to keep than in for a little bit (3-6 months) 02:41 Guest54 but why was it done at all? 02:42 Guest54 like, there are several simpler ways to achieve the same result without breakage and without conversion recipes 02:42 Guest54 i believe they were all brought up 02:42 Guest54 i just don't understand why a group would try to have more work instead of less 02:42 Guest54 for the same result 02:43 MTDiscord to be fair, it was badly named from the start 02:43 Guest54 (and also break stuff in user worlds in the meantime) 02:43 Guest54 indeed, but that can be solved with aliases 02:43 MTDiscord calling lapis blue_dye... 02:43 MTDiscord it hasn't broken anything, we have a recipe to convert stuff back 02:43 Guest54 that is an aesthetic argument, yes, it is ugly named. but it can be solved with aliases. 02:43 MTDiscord it's not just aesthetic 02:43 Guest54 if it has not broken anything, what happens to external mods that use, say, bonemeal or lapis? 02:43 MTDiscord naming in code is essential 02:44 Guest54 do they now work on dyes? 02:44 Guest54 yes and as i said, you could have registered aliases 02:44 MTDiscord because if people don't understand what something does, it's a recipe for bugs 02:44 Guest54 why did you not? 02:44 Guest54 i just don't get it why the tool that is for that purpose was not used 02:44 Guest54 https://minetest.gitlab.io/minetest/aliases/ 02:44 MTDiscord when you get to a point you need a doctorate to understand all the workaround etc. then you're limiting who can work on that code base 02:44 Guest54 > Aliases of itemnames can be added by using minetest.register_alias(alias, original_name) or minetest.register_alias_force(alias, original_name). 02:44 Guest54 it's very simple 02:45 Guest54 the only rule is that you can never re-use the old name, but you can not do that anyway if you want to keep compatibility and not break external mods 02:45 Guest54 so what is the problem with aliases? 02:46 MTDiscord hey. i didn't write the code 02:46 MTDiscord i approved it though... 02:46 muurkha heh 02:46 muurkha well, nothing is perfect 02:46 MTDiscord i don't plan on micromanaging every change, and there was mitigations in place 02:47 MTDiscord to craft stuff across. giving users 6 months potentially 02:47 Guest54 lol 02:47 Guest54 so i guess the explanation is “i approved it even though i do not know the solution space”, correct? 02:48 muurkha hey, erlehmann, now it sounds like you're just being rude 02:48 Guest54 i mean, if that is the case, you can definitely ask me if you want to prevent further breakage, but i probably won't update anything to deal with that stuff 02:48 MTDiscord maybe i'm not as great as you 02:48 Guest54 no, it's not about being great, it's about what someone thinks approving means 02:48 Guest54 it can be a buerocratical formality or an adversarial process 02:48 Guest54 the latter is much more frustrating and also leads to less bugs 02:48 MTDiscord i know your views on this already 02:48 Guest54 the former is nicer 02:49 MTDiscord mineclonia review process was onerous 02:49 MTDiscord and you left yourself a lot of work to do 02:49 MTDiscord and that's cool if you like working that way 02:49 MTDiscord but i don't plan to 02:49 Guest54 yeah one person left with the comment “you have managed to produce no bugs, but it reminds me of my workplace” 02:50 MTDiscord i respect the focus on quality and performance 02:50 Guest54 anyways, if you truly do not care about compatibility, i don't think it's rude to say i don't need to provide further critcism 02:50 MTDiscord i have similar goals 02:50 MTDiscord but we're making a game, that people play and enjoy 02:50 Guest54 it would only frustrate both of us 02:50 MTDiscord i ain't planning to valheim this 02:50 MTDiscord (waiting years for updates until no one plays) 02:50 Guest54 well, in the context of a game, my position is „do not break user worlds”, but i guess that ship has sailed lol 02:51 MTDiscord i care about compatibility, and i appreciate constructive feedback 02:51 MTDiscord but i don't agree that compatibility should prevent progress 02:51 MTDiscord it's a balancing act 02:51 MTDiscord and we're probably at different positions on that spectrum 02:51 MTDiscord i like that we have different views 02:51 Guest54 only if there is a balance to be found. in the case of the item renaming, a perfectly good solution was not taken (defining lots of aliases). 02:51 MTDiscord because debate and challenge is good 02:52 Guest54 unless i am missing something (e.g. aliases not working on some items) 02:52 Guest54 in the case of the texture renaming, what do you suggest people do? should everyone else rename their stuff and change their code? 02:53 Guest54 muurkha what exactly did you find rude? 02:53 MTDiscord at some point, it may be needed, i'm afraid 02:54 MTDiscord i have to support mineclone2 02:54 MTDiscord i cannot support it, legacy, and 100s of mods 02:54 MTDiscord i have to make decisions that drive it forward 02:54 MTDiscord and i hope that mods (with enough notice can still be supported) 02:55 Guest54 AncientMariner i do believe you have good intentions. i do not believe that there needs to be a balance be found between compatibility and progress in the cases i have seen so far in mineclone2 (which was about a year ago) because you can easily have both (it is just sometimes not obvious). 02:55 muurkha Guest54: oh, it seemed like you were attributing a situation you didn't like to some sort of unusual degree of ignorance on the part of AncientMariner, and ignorance is a commonly deprecated personal attribute 02:56 muurkha while I suppose that in some sense every deficiency in software is a result of things its author didn't know when they wrote it, I don't think AncientMariner is doing especially badly on this point 02:56 Guest54 muurkha i may have misinterpreted what AncientMariner tried to say about “i did not write it, i approved it” 02:57 Guest54 it happens quite often that people approve stuff that ”looks correct” without thinking as much about it as the author of the patch 02:57 muurkha more generally, I think it's important to be willing to make mistakes in public (especially in approving things) in order to learn from each other 02:57 MTDiscord i mean it came across as you're approving stuff you're clueless of, which was sharp, but i've heard worse 🙂 02:57 Guest54 i don't think AncientMariner is doing badly overall either 02:57 MTDiscord i appreciate that, and i do appreciate the challenge 02:57 Guest54 i just wanted to know the backstory behind something that could easily have gone a less-complex-same-result-for-the-user way 02:58 MTDiscord i absolutely care about people's worlds that they have invested in 02:58 MTDiscord i went out of my way to fix a mcl5 -> mcl2 conversion issue 02:58 MTDiscord so people can bring it across 02:58 MTDiscord and added compatibility tags so it is a first class citizen 02:59 Guest54 well, mcl5 was clearly the poster child in terms of “move fast and break things“ 02:59 MTDiscord but while i care about it, i cannot let it prevent progress 02:59 Guest54 i remember when lizzy and me were like “don't change mcl_maps” and it was still changed in mcl5 ;) 02:59 MTDiscord i'm closer to your position on things that you realise 02:59 Guest54 (and broke all existing maps) 02:59 MTDiscord most of my time this release was on performance fixes and error handling 02:59 Guest54 nice 03:00 Guest54 so what do you think of my idea to just make a folder that contains old names for textures? 03:00 Guest54 then you have one folder for whatever purpose you want to have and one with the old names 03:00 MTDiscord i'm trying to understand it? you mean like a copy of assets? 03:01 MTDiscord 2 assets with 2 names? 03:01 Guest54 i mean, like the symlink thing 03:02 Guest54 just keep the old name around, no harm done 03:02 MTDiscord i think it was suggested that windows users won't get the benefit of that 03:02 Guest54 well, you can still have the same file twice 03:02 Guest54 it can't be that many renamed files 03:02 MTDiscord 600 ish 03:02 Guest54 lol 03:02 MTDiscord out of 2300 03:02 MTDiscord so yeah 🙂 03:02 Guest54 that's gonna upset a lot of ppl ig if you don't do anything 03:03 MTDiscord it's going to upset a lot of future people that want to create texture packs if i do nothing 03:03 Guest54 anyways, i don't think i'll have the time to “fix” my mods anytime soon 03:03 MTDiscord this game isn't out of beta, some banks give less legacy support 🙂 03:04 MTDiscord i can give you notice of what i rename and give weeks notice if you prefer 03:04 MTDiscord but it's up to you whether you support your mods 03:04 Guest54 i have heard ”it is still beta, we can break everything” before 03:04 MTDiscord i don't hold that view 03:05 Guest54 from a previous maintainer ;) 03:05 MTDiscord but basically, your view is that i cannot make the right technical changes because mod authors are unwilling to support sensible changes we need to make 03:06 MTDiscord you've probably not been following closely, but myself and a previous maintainer aren't on, shall we say the best of terms 03:06 MTDiscord i'm not going to go further, as i'm not dragging all that up again 03:06 Guest54 no, my view is that you can make the right technical changes, but the change you have is wrong (or rather: incomplete) because it does result in stuff breaking that does not need to be broken with the right technical change 03:06 Guest54 no i have not 03:06 Guest54 you can query me what happened if you want to 03:07 Guest54 i was and still am busy having no energy and then trying to rebuild my life since i take the correct supplements 03:07 MTDiscord it is wrong in your view, but right in mine. ultimately, it's my call to make 03:07 MTDiscord i absolutely respect your view and concerns though 03:07 Guest54 btw, here is actual my POV: me and some others made some software that worked with your software correctly, for many months. it is easy for you to not break it. if you do (for reasons, i know), i guess you go fix it, in a way that it still works like before. you have no right to demand i or anyone else fix something. 03:07 MTDiscord and i do not take it lightly 03:08 MTDiscord i understand that, and i do hope you get things sorted 03:08 Guest54 you could of course send me a patch, but that patch does have to preserve compatibility with older versions and other mods using the same texture name as now (i have no idea how to do it), so just changing the name of the referenced textures will not do it. 03:09 Guest54 i think the lever thing is a mesecons thing that *just so happens* to work for mineclone2 03:09 Guest54 because it inherited a somewhat weird version of mesecons 03:09 Guest54 but i don't really remember 03:09 MTDiscord oh gosh, our mesecons 03:09 MTDiscord that's a whole level of erm, challenge 03:10 MTDiscord the fact it deviated from the original without a rename and anything that requires that dependency, well, good luck 03:10 MTDiscord with all due respect. i am unlikely to be able to do that 03:11 MTDiscord i have 770 bugs to think about 03:11 MTDiscord a game with very serious issues. lag that impacts current players, nether which is so dangerous it's unplayable in some biomes 03:11 Guest54 AncientMariner ultimately, you of course don't have do anything. i just want you to know that you can satisfy *both* the imaginary audience (people who will not create texture packs because they need all textures for all mods in a single directory) and keep compatibility. the simplest way being to just copying the files to a new directory. 03:11 Guest54 which is funny, because investigating lag was one of the things why mineclonia was created 03:12 Guest54 ultimately, a lot of the improvements cora did came up to long grueling reviews 03:12 Guest54 AncientMariner just so i can later say i told you so: if you want to rename the mesecons thingy, please use aliases, that way you keep compatibility. you need to keep these aliases forever. 03:13 Guest54 (by which i mean, do not remove them after 6 months) 03:13 MTDiscord i was thinking more of lbm that alias 03:13 MTDiscord to convert stuff over 03:13 Guest54 oh, did you see the funny thing i did to actually handle lbm conversions? 03:13 MTDiscord obviously stuff in chest is another challenge 03:13 Guest54 i think i made one that was especially nice 03:13 Guest54 why would you need an lbm? 03:14 Guest54 … i have the suspicion that there *is* an issue with aliases and maybe i just don't know it? 03:14 MTDiscord because once you've brought it over, it's in line with things, rather than having 17 different versions with different aliases and no one who remembers why this alias is here 03:15 Guest54 lol 03:15 MTDiscord i've seen bugs with half hearted aliases that get dropped 03:15 MTDiscord a run once abm, that converts over is 1 and done 03:15 MTDiscord and no longer legacy 03:15 Guest54 well, the problem is that still breaks every mod that relies on it 03:15 Guest54 with aliases you can change the itemname once and then do a cleanup 03:15 Guest54 for the old name 03:15 Guest54 until only one line remains that you keep, the alias 03:16 Guest54 to preserve compat for external mods and recipes 03:16 MTDiscord not really and if lbm is used, if someone wants to use something that depends on mesecons, it actually can be 03:16 Guest54 i don't get it, lbms were not even reliable last time i tested them 03:17 MTDiscord did you raise a bug with minetest? 03:17 Guest54 well, what i did was a bit weird 03:17 MTDiscord it does feel the correct tool for the job, and avoiding it because of fear is not great 03:17 Guest54 i wrote the compatibility code for the nether roof from versions of mineclone2 that did not have air there 03:18 MTDiscord and what was the weirdness? 03:19 Guest54 if you do something like put an lbm on air or so at somepoint it will no longer fire. 03:19 Guest54 i didn't figure it out and i don't think i filed a bug because it was such a weird thing to do in the first place. 03:20 MTDiscord well you have some that run at every load, and some that run_once 03:20 MTDiscord if you're converting over, running at every load works quite effectively 03:20 Guest54 the run_once was not reliable i think 03:20 Guest54 but i don't remember what i did to trigger it 03:20 MTDiscord run_once, and you have to ensure you've renamed it after you've tested, as it's probably considered itself run and doesn't run again 03:21 MTDiscord or don't run once in testing and convert to run_once when you're done 03:21 Guest54 > you have to ensure you've renamed it after you've tested 03:21 Guest54 wellllll 03:22 MTDiscord btw, on the performance front, check out the profiling info here: https://git.minetest.land/MineClone2/MineClone2/pulls/3545 03:22 MTDiscord between 0.82 and latest master is quite something 03:23 Guest54 how did performance get so bad? didn't cora merge all the performance improvements from mineclonia into mineclone2? 03:23 MTDiscord i think there was some historic fear of abms because of abm overuse 03:23 MTDiscord and things moved to on_step 03:23 Guest54 oh lol 03:24 MTDiscord but then, if you're running something 20 times a second 03:24 Guest54 isn't that attached to the player 03:24 MTDiscord vs a 1 second abm... 03:24 Guest54 like player server ticks or so? 03:24 MTDiscord yup 03:24 MTDiscord basically, most stuff that flagged up was finding objects or nodes near... 20 times a second 03:24 Guest54 i do remember that the extremely painful reviews in mineclonia *always* involved performance regression tests. i suggest you find someone who runs minetest on an old netbook or so to do that … :P 03:25 Guest54 oh, did you ever hear the story of the fire traffic? 03:25 MTDiscord i don't do it every pr, but i profile multiple times a week on master 03:25 Guest54 basically, lizzy (?) tested some burning code only on localhost, it was sending >60 times a second that the flame needs to change its texture. and you could be on fire multiple times. 03:25 MTDiscord plus, i know what i'm looking for now 03:26 Guest54 how do you profile actually? 03:27 MTDiscord this has been amazing: https://content.minetest.net/packages/jwmhjwmh/jitprofiler/ 03:27 MTDiscord rip jude 😦 03:27 MTDiscord but using that and the flamegraphs make it really easy to drill down 03:28 Guest54 oh, is it basically “luajit -jp=a” or so? 03:29 MTDiscord i have no idea. as far as i'm concerned it's magic 🙂 03:30 Guest54 btw, regarding LBMs, did i understand it correctly that instead of defining an alias you would iterate on every block on load and replace the thing in every node and every node inventory and so on? 03:30 Guest54 maybe i did not understand it correctly 03:31 Guest54 i do remember that someone suggested stuff like that for the dyes thing (instead of defining an alias), i hope that didn't catch on 03:31 MTDiscord for nodes, replacing with the new (correctly named one) 03:32 MTDiscord also very useful for picking up new attributes etc. 03:32 Guest54 and for inventories on nodes (and items, like shulkers) 03:32 MTDiscord inventories are the complexity, and i haven't really got a solution yet 03:32 MTDiscord i'm thinking if i can get something to iterate over contents on load 03:32 MTDiscord but i haven't found anything pressing enough that justifies it 03:33 Guest54 you do realize that defining an alias *does* solve the issue with inventories and also makes it so you no longer need an LBM unless you need to add some new attributes (in which case you need the LBM even without a renaming) 03:33 Guest54 ? 03:33 MTDiscord an alias solves the problem right now. well patches over it 03:33 MTDiscord but long term, if further changes are made, it gets messy 03:33 Guest54 it solves it forever with one line. i mean, i just don't see the advantage in the LBM solution. it's more code, which you also need to keep. 03:34 Guest54 how do aliases get messy? 03:34 MTDiscord so if you rename, then change attributes 03:35 MTDiscord i am not opposed to aliases, and will use them where i feel their appropriate 03:35 Guest54 so suppose you *only* want to rename the embarrasing mesecons mod to redstone or so 03:35 Guest54 would you then use aliases? 03:35 MTDiscord but it does feel more like a sticking plaster than solving the root cause 03:35 Guest54 oh, but it does solve the root cause on an engine level 03:35 Guest54 old name = new name 03:35 MTDiscord no 03:35 Guest54 for everything 03:36 Guest54 so what is not solved? 03:36 MTDiscord let's say you have mesecons names, and you alias it 03:36 MTDiscord and then later, someone wants to use mesecons with their world, or a mod that depends on meseconds 03:36 Guest54 btw, i wrote some code that updated the formspecs of ender chests on clamity. the LBM which has the hash of the formspec in the name. that guarantees it is always updated when the formspec changes (if LBMs fire). 03:36 MTDiscord then basically, any mesecon node is being interpretted by the alias 03:36 MTDiscord and you have a clash 03:37 MTDiscord and you cannot support mesecons based mods later 03:37 Guest54 oh, wait so it all comes down to “let's break compatibility with what exists to make it easier for stuff that does not exist” again 03:37 Guest54 i see 03:37 Guest54 the root cause was keeping the mesecons name 03:37 MTDiscord it feels you're preventing mod support long term because you're not correctly migrating 03:38 Guest54 well, there is no correct solution in that way 03:38 MTDiscord no, because if you migrate, it doesn't break, and you can support going forward 03:38 Guest54 either you break compatibility with every mod relying on the mesecons name 03:38 Guest54 or you can later have the mesecons name 03:38 MTDiscord or you can do both 03:38 Guest54 i know what i would chose (not having mesecons later, if i have a clone of it) 03:38 Guest54 i see, thus you arrive at the lbm 03:38 Guest54 good that we have that cleared up 03:38 MTDiscord lbm to move yours over, and then, because it's run once, or you later remove that, any new ones aren't affected by your code 03:38 MTDiscord and can support it 03:39 MTDiscord ours isn't a mesecons clone 03:39 MTDiscord it's transfering it to support redstone 03:39 MTDiscord which can differ functionally 03:39 MTDiscord and may not work with other mods 03:39 Guest54 btw, let me test something 03:39 Guest54 i will give you a bug report if it works 03:39 MTDiscord a bug report for what? 03:40 Guest54 mineclone2 03:40 MTDiscord i haven't done anything on that yet? 😉 03:40 MTDiscord we ain't accepting future bugs just yet 03:40 Guest54 nah, i'll test if there is an existing bug 03:40 Guest54 i don't want to appear as if i am just rude, i want to be at least rude and useful 03:40 Guest54 and reporting bugs (i.e. giving you more work) is useful, right? :P 03:41 Guest54 lol, the title “it's not in MC!!” 03:41 Guest54 hahaha 03:41 Guest54 AncientMariner as maintainer, how often did you need to deal with people who claim something is NOT EXACTLY LIKE MINECRAFT? 03:41 Guest54 we always made fun of them 03:41 Guest54 and i wonder if there are more now 03:42 MTDiscord i'm always happy to receive bugs. especially those that impact on users 03:42 Guest54 to clarify, i mean people who say ”the magnifying glass is not in minecraft, remove it“ 03:42 MTDiscord lol, there are plenty 03:42 MTDiscord and while i don't agree, i respect them 03:42 MTDiscord I have issues with the minecraft purists 03:42 MTDiscord agreed 03:42 MTDiscord I like trying to get new non minecraft things in it 03:42 MTDiscord i personally feel mc has deficiencies, and can be improved 03:43 MTDiscord and I have succeeded at least once 03:43 Guest54 PrairieWind, i got the obsidian boat in, i hope no one removes it 03:43 Guest54 problem: it burns 03:43 Guest54 my fault 03:43 MTDiscord it isnt gone yet 03:43 MTDiscord prairie is very good at pushing those boundaries 03:43 Guest54 well, actually, the fault is obviously with the reviewer 03:43 Guest54 :PPP 03:43 MTDiscord 😄 03:44 Guest54 does it still sink? 03:44 Guest54 i mean i made it as a joke 03:44 Guest54 are christmas chests still in? 03:44 MTDiscord i think it does 03:44 Guest54 i made them as a joke too 03:44 MTDiscord i think a player tried to raise it as a bug 03:44 Guest54 hahaha 03:44 MTDiscord christmas chests exist, yes 03:44 Guest54 i think the obsidian boat should float on lava but sink in water 03:44 Guest54 and not burn 03:44 Guest54 i should have put more work in it 03:44 Guest54 didn't really expect it to get accepted 03:44 Guest54 as they say: “nothing lasts as long as a provisorium” 03:45 MTDiscord but don't worry. i'll be keeping an eye out for your troll prs 😉 03:45 MTDiscord if you want to fix it, go right ahead and fix it if you want 03:46 Guest54 AncientMariner these days i have too little energy for that 03:46 MTDiscord fair enough. i think it happens to us all at some point 03:47 Guest54 no, i was sick 03:47 MTDiscord but usually those that work on redstone.... 03:47 MTDiscord oof, sorry to hear that 03:47 Guest54 vitamin D deficiency 03:47 Guest54 blood tests do not test for it by default, you have to request it 03:47 Guest54 it's super cheap 03:47 Guest54 when i learnt about vitamin deficiencies of sailors in school a long time ago, i thought that couldn't happen to me! 03:48 MTDiscord how does it impact, if you don't mind me asking. i know it can trigger low mood etc. vitamin c absorbion 03:48 MTDiscord go to margaritaville and enjoy the sun 03:50 MTDiscord (just looked up scurvy and feels he needs to start taking vitamins again) 03:50 Guest54 well, the result was basically extremely low energy. i also had a vitamin b12 deficiency, but i only really improved after i started taking high doses of vitamin D weekly 03:50 MTDiscord ah, fair enough 03:51 MTDiscord jeez ancient 03:51 MTDiscord I knew about scurvy from 2nd grade 03:51 MTDiscord i can relate a little though. i got long covid. fatigue and pains is part of my life now 03:51 Guest54 so the backstory is i had a bad infection on my foot in the beginning of 2020, it heald slowly, so i could not walk for some time. then was winter. and i never again went out with enough exposed skin to produce vitamin D i guess. 03:51 MTDiscord i knew about scurvy vit c and pirates, but never quite the actual symptoms 03:52 Guest54 i mean i could walk, but was basically in winter depression (which i think is lack of sunlight?) 03:52 Guest54 well, it's different for every vitamin 03:52 muurkha Oh man. Do you have diabetes? 03:52 Guest54 probably not, how would i know? 03:52 MTDiscord oof. your foot ok now? 03:52 Guest54 since about mid-2020. i am amazed how much a body can heal if you give it time. 03:52 MTDiscord but yeah, i get low mood over winter, hits me jan/feb/mar time 03:53 muurkha Your urine would be sweet, you would pee a lot, there are a bunch of other symptoms 03:53 MTDiscord i'm in the uk, so we have winter 75% of the year 03:53 MTDiscord winter 75% 03:53 MTDiscord how about wind 03:53 MTDiscord I get that 97% of the time 03:53 Guest54 AncientMariner, a test costs 30 euros, but you can probably get enough vitamin D capsules for that without a test. there is a “too much” level though, AFAIK. 03:54 MTDiscord here, it seems like there are 2 seasons...winter and summer. 03:54 Guest54 long-term vitamin b12 deficiency can affect the nervous system apparently. my doctors told me i'll not have that, but a friend of mine told me a relative of her basically appeared like she had dementia because of vitamin b12 deficiency. 03:54 MTDiscord i was taking supplements until start of winter, but kinda gave up after suffering long covid for a few years, just assumed i was fucked and not recovering 03:55 MTDiscord i probably need to go and get a blood test, and get checked out 03:55 Guest54 one doc said that basically 90% of people should take low doses of vitamin D in the winter or so 03:55 MTDiscord though our health service is a little stretched and if you ain't seriously ill, probably ain't getting an appointment 03:56 muurkha Guest54: you would probably know but https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diabetes#Signs_and_symptoms 03:56 MTDiscord little stretched? 03:56 muurkha > The classic symptoms of untreated diabetes are unintended weight loss, polyuria (increased urination), polydipsia (increased thirst), and polyphagia (increased hunger).[18] 03:56 MTDiscord sounds like an understatement 03:57 MTDiscord when I ride along on the ambulance, there is usually only a few rooms open if at all in the emergency department 03:57 Guest54 muurkha i had a phase where i was peeing a lot but that was when i was living with a friend and i strongly suspect now that it is related to something she likes to cook because i haven't had it when i was at my place (i.e. i would cook). 03:58 Guest54 > Your urine would be sweet 03:58 Guest54 guess i better drink my own piss, just to be sure ;) 03:58 Guest54 anyways, i also had hair loss 03:59 MTDiscord oof 03:59 MTDiscord haha, the sweet urine comment took me the same way 03:59 Guest54 apparently that can be connected to vitamin D according to one brochure at the doctor's office 03:59 Guest54 the problem is, it's top hair loss, not, body hair or beard 04:00 Guest54 i'll never become a femboy like that! 04:00 MTDiscord oof, did you go to shave it all off? 04:00 Guest54 no 04:00 muurkha Guest54: yeah, it's definitely an easy way to test, but cultural taboos prevent it in many circumstances 04:00 Guest54 muurkha no one but this IRC channel has to know 04:01 Guest54 oh about the bug i wanted to report, give me a moment 04:01 Guest54 maybe i can make your game crash AncientMariner 04:01 muurkha Guest54: in areas of Africa where they couldn't afford the tests, they would advise patients to pee outside the house at night, then look in the morning to see if it had attracted ants 04:01 Guest54 that sounds smart 04:01 muurkha that way you can leave the urine tasting to the ants instead of doing it manually 04:01 muurkha well 04:01 muurkha orally 04:02 muurkha but I'd think that in Germany it would be easy enough to just get a quantitative urine sugar test from a lab 04:04 Guest54 AncientMariner how could i skip the end credits? 04:04 Guest54 oh sneak 04:04 Guest54 it's kinda hidden (i am testing on a hidpi screen) 04:06 Guest54 i think one of the funniest mineclone2 bugs was that the screwdriver could change the orientations of portals 04:06 Guest54 i left corrupted portals everywhere 04:06 Guest54 and few figured it out 04:07 MTDiscord ooof 04:07 Guest54 AncientMariner has the screwdriver been removed? 04:07 Guest54 i can't find it 04:07 Guest54 maybe it has a different name in the creative inv 04:08 Guest54 i just crafted it 04:08 Guest54 it's so useful (and NOT IN MINECRAFT!!!) 04:09 Guest54 AncientMariner another funny bug was: 1. books are enchantable. 2. enchanted books do not stack. 3. unenchanted books stack. 4. stacks of books are enchantable. 5. one enchanted book + lots of books = maximum level enchantment. 04:09 Guest54 i wonder if that was ever fixed hehe 04:13 Guest54 AncientMariner thank you for explaining the reasoning behind the LBM story btw. i would solve it differently btw, by only defining aliases if mesecons mod is not loaded. good enough for you? 04:14 Guest54 (or possibly giving players an option to turn it off) 04:15 Guest54 also congrats, the crash i wanted to find is not possible 04:26 MTDiscord erm, i'm still making my mind up on things, i have some time as it isn't the most pressing priority 04:26 MTDiscord and until that time, i'll keep mulling it over. and as i learn more i'll see if my thinking changes 04:27 MTDiscord good to hear crash is gone 04:27 Guest54 i just wanted to know if there is something obviously wrong with it 04:27 MTDiscord mobs? 04:27 Guest54 the crash was interleaving two end portals to make the game fill the entire plane with end portal 04:27 Guest54 may be i do not remember it enough anymore 04:27 MTDiscord it's a reasonable suggestion, i'll have to digest it 04:28 Guest54 i like that you think from constraints btw 04:28 Guest54 bad developers think from solutions 04:28 MTDiscord you sure like your niche bugs 🙂 04:28 Guest54 “i have a hammer, where is the nail” 04:28 Guest54 oh, i was once the only user on clamity who had end portal blocks 04:29 Guest54 i think those were a few characters to long for the usual injection exploits 04:29 Guest54 so it's a riddle how i got them ;) 04:29 Guest54 you can still do havoc with them, if you get them 04:29 MTDiscord i have no doubt in my mind that you can probably break things quicker than i can fix them 04:29 Guest54 e.g. create a fully formed end portal at end spawn 04:30 Guest54 to make end off-limits 04:30 MTDiscord you've got a rather devious and inquisitive mind 04:30 Guest54 i think there used to be a delay before the teleport, so it was not possible, but i am unsure, maybe i remember it wrong 04:30 Guest54 well, when cora was maintainer, about one third of commits were dealing with regressions from previous things 04:31 Guest54 if you are doing better than that, you are probably good :P 04:31 Guest54 (yes, i counted them once, maybe it was only for that period) 04:31 MTDiscord erm, i've seen plenty of own goals tbf 04:31 Guest54 well, that's what reviews are for IMO. i always try to prove that the code i review is utter garbage. 04:32 Guest54 if i can't do that, yep, it's good 04:32 MTDiscord i became maintainer start of december, and it feels like i'm just getting out of firefighting mode 04:32 Guest54 i expect no less from anyone else 04:32 MTDiscord i can now think what i want to work on, rather than what i need to work on 04:32 Guest54 what fires did you fight? 04:32 Guest54 like what was the biggest thing 04:32 MTDiscord performance, crashes 04:33 MTDiscord but performance has been the biggie for me 04:33 Guest54 that's weird, because i think the performance stuff had been cleared up, ig. it got worse in 2022 again 04:34 MTDiscord kelp has been broken for a while 04:34 MTDiscord sculk was new 04:34 Guest54 i mean basically there were a few reasons for bad performance: 1. someone tests only on fast internet with high end PC 2. lots of strings are created (lua hashes each string, which makes it slow) 3. something is accidentally quadratic or cubic and hogs CPU or RAM or both 04:34 MTDiscord mobs, well, that has been there a while, and was almost migrated across and then wasn't 04:34 Guest54 wait, kelp is still broken? 04:34 MTDiscord no, i've replaced node timer kelp with abm kelp 04:34 MTDiscord in some cases gone from 20% cpu to 2% 04:35 Guest54 i mean, kelp was unbroken at one time, then someone replaced it and from then on it sucked 04:35 Guest54 nice that you fixed it 04:35 Guest54 node timers on stuff that replicates itself are funny 04:35 MTDiscord it still needs work 04:35 Guest54 it's basically a memory leak 04:35 MTDiscord it was weirdly over complicated 04:35 Guest54 wdym 04:35 MTDiscord the notes in the code says it was for performance reasons, yet i cannot imagine it was ever profiled 04:36 Guest54 haha 04:36 MTDiscord there was a whole extra layer of complexity for creating timers, starting timers, persisting timers 04:36 Guest54 so once, cora made the new fire, *exactly like minecraft*. so that minecraft-like structures work well. she used a node timer. 04:36 MTDiscord my eyes glazed over 04:36 Guest54 now the problem is that fire copies itself a lot. the timer was used for the remaining life of the fire. 04:37 Guest54 so in the review and testing process i set a forest on fire and played for 40 minutes on a machine with 2GB RAM 04:37 Guest54 turns out that isn't enough for a full-blown forest fire 04:37 Guest54 the solution was to probabilistically kill the fire (using an ABM maybe, i do not know) 04:37 MTDiscord i think some things have progressed. i hear lava was historically bad, and a performance challenge, and we used to have abm hell 04:38 Guest54 so now you have on_step hell? :D 04:38 MTDiscord i think there was already an element of that 04:38 MTDiscord mobs was pretty horrific 04:39 MTDiscord cora kicked off some refactoring which has made things a lot easier 04:39 MTDiscord i think the problem was because it was a 5000 line file, with ridiculous functions, people couldn't see the wood for the trees 04:39 MTDiscord so cora, pulled a lot out into functions, and it makes it a lot easier to see what should and shouldn't be there 04:39 MTDiscord i've continued those refactorings 04:40 Guest54 is there any way external mods can register structures? i remember proposing a structure block that unpack itself, so you can have schematics that place multiple rooms that place other rooms. 04:40 MTDiscord interesting idea 04:40 Guest5416 was that done? 04:40 MTDiscord my knowledge on structures is pretty limited, so i probably cannot comment at present 04:40 Guest5416 oh okay 04:40 MTDiscord i know cora worked on some structure api stuff 04:41 MTDiscord but i've not looked into it too much 04:41 Guest5416 btw, regarding the text rendering thing i am doing, anything you need? 04:41 Guest5416 for reference, i can render this in pure lua: https://mister-muffin.de/p/Lh5L.png 04:41 Guest5416 and no, i have no idea how the arabic is supposed to look like 04:41 Guest5416 i only know it is wrong 04:41 MTDiscord it could help, i'd have to understand it more, but we have like 189 images for signs, so i'm open to ideas and suggestions 04:42 Guest5416 no i mean for the text for signs 04:42 MTDiscord (i meant for the text, 189 text images i think) 04:42 Guest5416 oh lol 04:42 Guest5416 for each of the 189 supported characters? 04:42 Guest5416 you mean that? 04:43 MTDiscord i think so 04:43 Guest5416 if so, i saw that PR and it made me write to want that renderer 04:43 MTDiscord that's 189/600 yet to be prefixed assets too, so 2 birds 1 stone, maybe 04:43 Guest5416 wellllllll 04:43 Guest5416 i have a suggestion 04:44 Guest5416 remove the letters and depend on my unicode text renderer once i put it on cdb :P 04:44 Guest5416 unless you want people to have texture packs that include fonts 04:44 Guest5416 which is a weird idea if you ask me, because it would limit stuff to ascii 04:44 MTDiscord once you get it on content db, i'll check it out and see if i can comprehend it, but i'm open to improvements 🙂 04:44 Guest5416 or something like that 04:45 Guest5416 well, do you have any requirements for the font rendering? 04:45 MTDiscord i don't presently know enough about the implementation to know what i'd need 🙂 04:45 Guest5416 well, requirements strictly come before an implementation 04:46 MTDiscord yup. i have 70 bugs i've marked as elevated priority: https://git.minetest.land/MineClone2/MineClone2/issues?q=&type=all&state=open&labels=186&milestone=0&assignee=0&poster=0 04:46 MTDiscord i don't see this above them to be honest 04:46 Guest5416 if you just want “monochrome text on a sign”, i can *probably* do that better (as in: unicode, but bidirectional text looks still messed up until someone implements the algorithm from UAX#9 or so) 04:46 MTDiscord so i doubt i could commit time to it until i've made headway in that 04:47 MTDiscord for me, just having text on a sign of a reasonable colour (darker font on light signs, lighter font on dark signs) is probably a big step forward 04:47 MTDiscord or at least some configurability on colour 04:48 Guest5416 so having a single solid color you can configure is something the “one image for each letter” approach can't do? 04:49 Guest5416 i thought there was a texture modifier for making one color another or so, well, i hate texmods, so i am not going to look :P 04:49 MTDiscord i cannot say, i don't know enough 🙂 04:49 MTDiscord but the person who last worked on it told me lettering and colour was a bit of a nightmare 04:50 Guest5416 oh, i can see why 04:50 Guest5416 well, you saw my picture, it proves i can do colors! 04:51 Guest5416 AncientMariner if you ever despair about bugs, just look at mojang bug tracker. they have stuff like “bedrock is missing in the snapshot“ with people falling out of the world and so on. 04:51 Guest5416 like you *probably* don't have bugs that bad 04:52 MTDiscord the thing you shared looked pretty neat 04:52 MTDiscord oh i know that. i'm quite ruthless. if it ain't meta, i don't care for now 04:52 MTDiscord there is 770 bugs, they ain't getting mopped up any time soon 04:52 Guest5416 or axes not being able to be enchanted lol 04:52 MTDiscord but thing things that ruin a play through need to be fixed 04:53 Guest5416 yes, which is why a friend of my strongly suggested to have everyone do a speedrun before each release 04:53 Guest5416 no cheats, no creative 04:53 Guest5416 just speedrun the thing 04:53 Guest5416 you'll figure out if it sucks 04:53 Guest5416 apparently i can no longer push text off signs 04:53 MTDiscord if you're volunteering 😉 04:54 MTDiscord i'm a proper turtle player 04:54 MTDiscord but i heavily play test 04:54 Guest5416 what's turtle player? 04:54 MTDiscord https://tenor.com/view/guild-wars2-gw2-guild-wars-end-of-dragons-eo-d-gif-22530689 04:54 Guest5416 i am not volunteering. i just mean i often have seen bugs in mcl2 (before your time) that would have been found by someone simply playing the game. 04:54 MTDiscord not so rapid 04:55 Guest5416 like “take the item and see if it does what the thing should do instead of believing the code works” 04:55 Guest5416 for every new feature 04:55 MTDiscord yup 04:55 Guest5416 i still do not understand turtle 04:55 Guest5416 you maintain defensively? 04:55 MTDiscord basically, it's the opposite of a speed run 04:56 Guest5416 oh i see 04:56 MTDiscord from rts games, where you resource up, max tech tree, build biggest army and go for it 04:56 MTDiscord so overprepare and a half 🙂 04:56 Guest5416 but speedrun just means to get to defeat the dragon 04:56 MTDiscord i've never beaten the dragon 🙂 04:56 Guest5416 i wonder if mcl_speedrun still works haha 04:56 Guest5416 do you know that mod? 04:56 MTDiscord yeah, afcm's mod 04:56 Guest5416 AFCMS made it (or how was that name) 04:57 Guest5416 i admit, i first wrote ACFMS and then corrected myself 04:57 Guest5416 oh let's see if i can find a dupe 04:57 MTDiscord easy to remember. (arsenal football club, m) 04:57 MTDiscord (that's probably not how he came up with it, but it's how i remember it) 04:57 MTDiscord (with an optional s on the end) 04:58 Guest5416 btw, some stuff does not work in creative i think 04:58 Guest5416 is it on purpose? 04:59 Guest5416 like nether portal lighting or water propagation (or i am doing it wrong, i hope it was not river water lol) 04:59 Guest5416 it was river water 04:59 Guest5416 so scratch that 04:59 Guest5416 but the portal, is that on purpose or also user error (i.e. my fault for doing something wrong) 04:59 MTDiscord what do you mean by nether portal lighting? 05:00 MTDiscord if you find something, assume it isn't on purpose 05:00 Guest5416 i think i was not able to create the portal with the flint and steel in creative 05:00 MTDiscord only thing that seems to be on purpose is faster crops 05:00 Guest5416 why that though 05:00 Guest5416 crops are *ridiculously* fast growing now 05:01 Guest5416 like you can live off a 3×3 farm 05:01 MTDiscord well you need a lot of wheat for cows for leather 05:01 MTDiscord it's not ideal, but not the most pressing priority 05:01 MTDiscord it didn't but me on any playthrough i've done 05:01 Guest5416 it's more a question of what it makes this game 05:01 MTDiscord mc is ridiculously painfully slow on that 05:01 Guest5416 like no one is going to build a big farm if during building the farm you realize you don't need it 05:02 Guest5416 i remember that some people built huge fields of wheat 05:02 MTDiscord making something agonising doesn't make a good game neccessarily 05:02 Guest5416 now it is no longer needed, i am torn on it 05:02 Guest5416 on the one hand, it is grinding if you do it 05:02 MTDiscord we are thinking of removing catch up off the abm 05:02 Guest5416 on the other hand, it does mean you have to find other ways 05:02 Guest5416 well, then it only grows if you are looking, doesn't it? 05:03 MTDiscord i used to play old school runescape. i gave 3 years of my life to that 05:03 MTDiscord grindy doesn't neccessarily mean good 05:03 Guest5416 wasn't the issue that it grows *slower* when you are looking rn? 05:03 Guest5416 no, grindy does not mean good 05:03 Guest5416 do you know dungeon crawl stone soup? 05:03 Guest5416 a roguelike with two funny default bindings, autoexplore and autofight 05:03 Guest5416 it keeps the developers honest, no grinding can occur 05:03 Guest5416 because if there were grinding, people would just mash these buttons 05:04 MTDiscord i have no idea what "rogue" is, but i've seen countless references to roguelike 05:04 Guest5416 AncientMariner https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/17/Rogue_Screen_Shot_CAR.PNG 05:05 MTDiscord my philosophy is about balance. too easy, you complete it quick, it isn't a challenge, and you're bored. and too hard, and you give up, because what is the point 05:05 Guest5416 that is rogue: think diablo, but on an old terminal, turn-based and with permadeath 05:05 Guest5416 do you know the thing about fun though? 05:05 MTDiscord sorry, what is fun? 05:06 MTDiscord but i've never played diablo 05:06 Guest5416 AncientMariner dwarf fortress is fun (allegedly), see this graphic for explanation: https://dwarffortresswiki.org/images/4/40/FunComic.png 05:07 Guest5416 the counterintuitive result is that losing is fun 05:07 Guest5416 if it is done well 05:07 MTDiscord oooof 05:07 Guest5416 you can see this in multiplayer games where only one person can win but everyone had fun 05:07 MTDiscord i've only had that with one game. project zomboid 05:07 MTDiscord "this is how you died" 05:08 MTDiscord you're gonna day in a day, then 3, then a week, then 2 months 05:08 Guest5416 in magic the gathering a friend once told me it's not enough that you win, the others should not resent you for it 05:08 MTDiscord i love that game 05:08 Guest5416 “you're gonna day in a day, then 3, then a week, then 2 months” i do not understand 05:08 Guest5416 pls explain 05:09 MTDiscord basically, it's brutal survival game, one bite and you're done 05:09 MTDiscord and you generally suck at first 05:09 MTDiscord and will die 05:09 Guest5416 oww 05:09 MTDiscord and you get a little bit less dreadful each time 05:09 Guest5416 have you ever played cataclysm dark days ahead? 05:09 MTDiscord but zombie apocalyse, everyone is dead, and you will soon die 05:09 Guest5416 it's a turn-based roguelike, basically zombie apocalypse and everything else happened at the same time 05:10 MTDiscord nope, but they actually have a level called a really cd:da 05:10 Guest5416 hehe 05:10 MTDiscord basically, everything has gone to shit, you're drunk, cut, your house is on fire, oh, and it's on insane zombie levels 05:10 Guest5416 you can make cars in cdda and the counter for wheels only says “enough” if you have enough wheels 05:10 Guest5416 and you can start with different boni and mali 05:10 Guest5416 like start as a chain smoker with one last pack of cigs 05:11 Guest5416 good luck (withdrawal effects in the game are mean) 05:11 MTDiscord it sounds like zomboid is quite influenced by it 05:11 MTDiscord give it a try, it's awesome 05:12 Guest5416 cdda is so screwed, if you want to report an interface bug you should check before if your character is schizophrenic (because that does lead to interface screw in some way, e.g. monsters are rendered that do not exist) 05:13 Guest5416 my first character in cdda died because it was cold and the character had a lighter and i was like ok light a fire 05:13 Guest5416 turns out smoke inhalation is a thing 05:13 Guest5416 drink water without cooking it? puke your guts out (which reduces satiation) etc. 05:13 Guest5416 basically, the game needs no tips about what's a horrible idea, if it's a bad idea IRL, it's a bad idea in the game 05:14 Guest5416 well, except for cool things like combining hairspray, lighter and tape :D 05:15 MTDiscord sounds like zomboid is heavily inspired by it then 05:15 MTDiscord anyways. it's 5am, i better sleep 🙂 05:16 Guest5416 here it's 6 AM 05:16 Guest5416 ig you are in UK? 05:16 MTDiscord been a pleasure talking to you. good night 05:16 MTDiscord yup 05:16 MTDiscord where are you based? 05:16 Guest5416 good night 05:16 Guest5416 i live in berlin 05:16 Guest5416 it's a nice city, but other germans seem to hate it 05:17 MTDiscord ah nice 05:17 Guest5416 > The origin of the name Berlin is uncertain. It may have roots in the language of West Slavic inhabitants of the area of today's Berlin, and may be related to the Old Polabian stem berl-/birl- ("swamp"). 05:17 MTDiscord if you like it, it's the main thing 05:17 MTDiscord oof 05:17 Guest5416 i am a little trash goblin living in a swamp hehe 05:18 Guest5416 the bad thing is that the rents have risen so much 05:18 Guest5416 years ago i asked why people set cars on fire 05:18 Guest5416 after all, the cars are insured probably 05:19 Guest5416 one answer was that the goal is to affect the rents, because people with expensive cars may not like it getting burned lol 05:19 Guest5416 i don't really believe it tbh 05:20 MTDiscord interesting 05:22 Guest5416 AncientMariner what do campfires do btw except set you on fire? 05:22 MTDiscord set mobs on fire 05:22 MTDiscord and apparently cook something, but not in mcl2 05:22 MTDiscord i've never ever made one in mc or mcl2 05:22 MTDiscord (except for testing) 05:23 MTDiscord prairie did mention they're useful for iron golem farms 05:23 Guest5416 so it's just a trap 05:23 Guest5416 lol why is there a hamburger in the creative menu 05:23 Guest5416 that's *probably* not in minecraft 05:23 Guest5416 creative *menu* hehe 05:23 MTDiscord ah the hamburger. that was very much one of those "not in mc" things 05:23 MTDiscord it errr, caused upset 05:24 Guest5416 i like how it looks out of place haha 05:24 Guest5416 it also looks so fat, fills the frame nicely 05:25 MTDiscord i'm regularly using it to pull my villagers 05:25 MTDiscord plus, my kids loved it 05:25 MTDiscord they spent a full day just trying to make burgers 05:25 Guest5416 hahahaha 05:25 Guest5416 what is the recipe? 05:25 MTDiscord bread cooked steak bread 05:25 MTDiscord can't remember if it's horizontal or vertical 05:25 Guest5416 missing veggies, but i'll let it slide hehe 05:26 MTDiscord i'm saving people having to pick it out before eating ;)( 05:26 Guest5416 what's the name of the thing that plays the music records? 05:26 Guest5416 i can not find it in the creative inventory 05:26 MTDiscord jukebox 05:27 MTDiscord (does music not bring it up in search?) 05:27 MTDiscord could need a description tweak if not 05:27 Guest5416 got it 05:27 Guest5416 it is not found with ”music” or “record” 05:27 Guest5416 maybe the search needs to check the description or so? 05:28 Guest5416 oh the search only searches the localized version 05:28 MTDiscord i think it does (we added it for mushrooms) 05:28 Guest5416 interesting 05:28 MTDiscord for nether shrooms 05:28 Guest5416 let me test sth really quick with the juke box hehe 05:30 Guest5416 first, the background music overlays the jukebox, is that intended? 05:30 MTDiscord nah, i think it needs to be better integrated 05:30 MTDiscord good catch 05:31 MTDiscord description = S("Crimson Fungus"), _tt_help = S("Crimson fungus is a mushroom found in the nether's crimson forest."), _doc_items_longdesc = S("Crimson fungus is a mushroom found in the nether's crimson forest."), 05:31 MTDiscord i think this picks up mushroom, so probably will work for music 05:31 Guest5416 the localized version! 05:31 Guest5416 i searched for music but it should have been musik 05:32 MTDiscord interesting 05:33 Guest5416 also music record play state does not survive exiting the game and entering it again 05:33 Guest5416 in singleplayer 05:33 MTDiscord is that an issue? 05:33 Guest5416 no, i just noticed and i wonder if i should have expected that. 05:33 Guest5416 i mean, minetest is really bad for “synchronize sound” use cases. 05:34 MTDiscord i don't think you can even find out if a song is playing, so you start and hope or time it 05:34 Guest5416 the only real problem i see is music disc + background music 05:34 Guest5416 it sounds bad 05:34 MTDiscord i bet 05:34 MTDiscord i guess music discs aren't good until i fix that 05:34 MTDiscord i'll hopefully get to it before release 05:35 Guest5416 well, they were good before the music was added, but that was probably before your time ig 05:35 MTDiscord yup 05:35 Guest5416 then again the background music is more calm so i like it more 05:35 MTDiscord i've only been around since oct 05:35 Guest5416 than the hectic music discs 05:36 MTDiscord yeah, we got some really great contributions 05:36 MTDiscord we're quite fortunate 05:36 Guest5416 you know what, i remember with music discs someone *also* renamed them without using aliases 05:36 MTDiscord we added 3 songs in last release, then got 8 more and 2 updates 05:36 Guest5416 (and i fixed it lol) 05:36 Guest5416 long time ago 05:37 MTDiscord i bet 05:37 MTDiscord this bringing back old memories? 🙂 05:38 MTDiscord (damn history repeating itself) 05:38 Guest5416 yes, bad memories. it takes so much longer to fix a bad thing that made it into a world you are playing on than do it right the first time. 05:38 Guest5416 and the problem was, most of the time it was not that the people were stupid or so 05:38 Guest5416 they just commited the first thing that looked like a solution 05:38 Guest5416 i.e. “we need to do something, this is something, let's do it” 05:39 MTDiscord i don't mind mistakes, but i get annoyed when people are disrespectful of users 05:39 MTDiscord like they know an issue, but don't care about the impact 05:39 Guest5416 uh, i guess it's lizzy then you do not like? 05:39 MTDiscord lizzy was before my time 05:40 Guest5416 well, i once reported some lag issue in mcl2 and it was renamed into ”post your computers specs” 05:40 MTDiscord i like them as a person from my short conversations 05:40 Guest5416 and everyone made fun of me from having a worse graphics card 05:40 Guest5416 the error, obviously, was something else 05:40 MTDiscord yeah, that's quite annoying 05:40 MTDiscord i saw that issue, and did wonder 05:40 MTDiscord my pc is a beast, but i'm not coding for me 05:40 Guest5416 it was one of the reasons for forking, when people can try but are not even trying 05:41 Guest5416 when i made a small music synthesizer software a long time ago, i made it on the worst computer i had 05:41 Guest5416 so it does not drop frames on newer ones 05:42 MTDiscord i have a 7 year old hdd that i use to test from time to time 05:42 Guest5416 you can see this with minetest engine too – so far they have always fixed it, but i think at one point sprites were not visible without shaders. 05:42 MTDiscord hdd does seem to have biggest impact imho 05:42 MTDiscord unless of course a village is being spawned, then it's stop the world for 10-30 seconds 05:43 Guest5416 btw, if you want to reduce asset size, you may want to reduce transfer size. on-disk i think every small file takes at least a block (though it may be different now?) 05:43 MTDiscord the funny thing is, the people with great pc's have disposable income and can just buy mc 05:43 Guest5416 yes 05:43 Guest5416 and mc does not even run on most computers that minetest runs on 05:44 MTDiscord the people we're making a difference for are those that cannot afford it, or certainly not as a family 05:44 MTDiscord i had mc, but only 1 copy, my kids could not play together 05:44 Guest5416 for me it's a mark of arrogance if someone responds to a performance issue with “just buy a better computer” 05:45 MTDiscord this gave them the opportunity to play together, and to help them 05:45 Guest5416 i mean, most performance issues are at least quadratic 05:45 Guest5416 no amount of better computer is fixing quadratic 05:45 Guest5416 i mean most i have *noticed* 05:45 Guest5416 playing minetest together is such a nice thing 05:45 Guest5416 my ex made an 8 segment display in mcl2 05:45 Guest5416 on the nether roof 05:45 MTDiscord the other aspect, is if it runs dog slow, it cannot scale, and multiplayer is screwed 05:46 Guest5416 i believe that was one of the factors why cora focused on performance 05:46 Guest5416 the original fires were just lag machines 05:46 Guest5416 set a forest on fire, server lags as long as the block is active 05:46 MTDiscord but watching my kids game together, it's one of the reasons i stuck around. watching them enjoy means something 05:46 Guest5416 that is also why anarchy servers are so good 05:47 MTDiscord so i do feel i wanted to give something back 05:47 Guest5416 you basically have people who cheat and steal (the nice ones) and ones who crash the server (evil ones) 05:47 Guest5416 and both give you free testing hehe 05:47 MTDiscord it's fine, we can turn off fire spread 05:47 Guest5416 you no longer need to 05:48 Guest5416 though i wonder 05:48 Guest5416 does fire spread in protected blocks? 05:48 MTDiscord from a playing perspective, yes 05:48 MTDiscord idk 05:48 MTDiscord fire is apparently unstoppable. not good being performant, if functionality it's meh 05:49 Guest5416 as i remember it, from a playing perspective, fire spread is exactly like minecraft (modulo the timer issuer), so unless your house is hit by a stray lightning bolt … 05:49 MTDiscord we have been trying to ensure protection mods are supported 05:49 Guest5416 i think it dies out 05:49 Guest5416 eventually 05:49 Guest5416 after everything has burned down 05:49 MTDiscord apparently in mcl2, it don't stop 05:49 Guest5416 hmm 05:49 MTDiscord oh, after everything burnt down 05:49 Guest5416 maybe cora did not port *everything*? 05:49 MTDiscord i couldn't say 05:50 Guest5416 i'll test the texture thing btw 05:51 Guest5416 commit f6d6a59c013881f26cf12a31279b8bf2ececb78a seems misguided, as you may want to have a different item image than texture on the thing 05:52 Guest5416 just because the images are identical it does not mean they are the same purpose 05:52 Guest5416 or i am misunderstanding it 05:53 MTDiscord but if they're the same file, you cannot have them different, and if you need them, it's best to add them in then 05:54 MTDiscord i'm not sure what is the best option 05:54 MTDiscord but the pr is an improvement over what was there 05:54 MTDiscord and that is my policy in general 05:54 Guest5416 you cannot have them different – well you can with a texture pack 05:55 MTDiscord but they'd need a different name for tp to differ them? 05:55 Guest5416 yes 05:55 Guest5416 what if a texture pack only wants to change the item image, but leave the texture for the frame intact 05:55 Guest5416 am i misunderstanding it? 05:55 MTDiscord i don't disagree with you, but did it work that way before? 05:56 Guest5416 you have to ask the author of the original code probably 05:56 MTDiscord actually, you might be right 13:57 lissobone hi 13:58 lissobone malice with intent 22:57 imi hi, is there a way to change the password of the admin user from the ncurses console? 23:30 Guest54 AncientMariner why was (can?) this thing not be done with node groups? https://git.minetest.land/MineClone2/MineClone2/pulls/3567/files 23:31 Guest54 in general, i have noticed that some mods include lists of other mods nodes (or lists of groups) to regulate interaction 23:32 Guest54 while others use groups so that the other mods need to opt-in. 23:33 Guest54 in this case i don't understand why there isn't an _mcl_lantern_allowed_non_solid_floor group 23:33 Guest54 as the the logic of mcl_lanterns internally *does* check for groups 23:34 Guest54 i could understand it if the interaction list would change during the game, but i don't see that here: https://git.minetest.land/MineClone2/MineClone2/src/branch/master/mods/ITEMS/mcl_lanterns/init.lua 23:39 Guest54 in the end, it looks to me as if having other mods opt in would save about 40 SLOC in that file (out of about 260 SLOC total), so either the thing is a bit too complex for its own good or i am missing something important 23:39 Guest54 and since it *does* use groups internally, i'd bet on the latter, so any idea what it could be? 23:47 Guest54 AncientMariner also it seems none of the textures i use were renamed and i am glad 23:48 Guest54 well, or so i hope