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MTDiscord |
<MisterE> Hey everyone, a new blog post is out: https://blog.minetest.net/2022/07/07/June/ |
| 01:48 |
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| 02:08 |
erle |
> the next step is to only show settings if they are relevant |
| 02:08 |
erle |
> For example, shader settings should only be visible when shaders are enabled, and Android settings should only be on Android. |
| 02:09 |
erle |
rubenwardy, i suggest to hide stuff that can never be enabled – but gray out / disable stuff that can be enabled and place it close to the thing that enables it (i.e. shaders) |
| 02:10 |
rubenwardy |
That's complex as it requires implementing disabled versions of most components |
| 02:11 |
rubenwardy |
in the shaders section, when shaders aren't enable you'll see empty sections like tone mapping etc |
| 02:11 |
rubenwardy |
also, I'm still weeks away from doing this, there's not point giving me feedback on this now |
| 02:23 |
erle |
oh i just wanted to point out there is a difference between “can not ever work” and context-sensitive options |
| 02:23 |
rubenwardy |
(by component I mean settings component, it's possible to do this with formspecs with a lot of tweaking / trial and error) |
| 02:24 |
erle |
i have had a lot of issues with context-sensitive options at work and the problem is that many people's ideas about how the UX is easiest to understand do not stand the test of reality |
| 02:24 |
rubenwardy |
yeah, it's certainly desirable |
| 02:25 |
rubenwardy |
Rather than making disabled versions of all components, I could make a single disabled component that just says the setting title and what it requires |
| 02:25 |
erle |
for example, a coworker wanted next to a bunch of checkboxes one that if checked, checks all checkboxes |
| 02:25 |
erle |
on the same level |
| 02:26 |
erle |
and had a hard time understanding that this makes the interface insanely more complex to understand and implement if a checkbox can check another checkbox. |
| 02:27 |
erle |
rubenwardy that sounds good |
| 02:28 |
rubenwardy |
That's a common interface pattern, to have bulk setting checkboxes |
| 02:28 |
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| 02:28 |
erle |
yeah my coworker said as well |
| 02:28 |
rubenwardy |
It's usually seen in tables, with the bulk set checkbox in the header |
| 02:28 |
erle |
try implementing it |
| 02:28 |
rubenwardy |
I have |
| 02:28 |
erle |
it only works in very specific interfaces |
| 02:29 |
rubenwardy |
It's easy to implement when your UI is based on data, rather than basing your data on UI |
| 02:29 |
erle |
anyway, my current shortcut to explain it to people is “can you implement the enabble/disable or show/hide logic in pure CSS?” |
| 02:29 |
erle |
because if you can do that, you have no loops |
| 02:30 |
erle |
anyway, most users that think they do want it don't want a checkbox that checks other checkboxes. |
| 02:30 |
erle |
they may want a button that checks checkboxes or something similar |
| 02:30 |
erle |
rubenwardy, do you have the table example public online? |
| 02:31 |
rubenwardy |
No, it's proprietary |
| 02:31 |
rubenwardy |
Done at work for a client |
| 02:31 |
erle |
btw, in my case the solution was to make the interface better so that it did not have a lot of checkboxes to check to get to a useful result |
| 02:32 |
erle |
and instead of a checkbox that checked checkboxes i made a link that did it |
| 02:32 |
erle |
so that a) you could go to the previous state easily b) there is no question about what happens if you uncheck one of the checkboxes that got checked or so ;) |
| 02:32 |
erle |
because inevitably someone will got the idea that *unchecking* the “check all” checkbox should uncheck all boxes or so |
| 02:33 |
rubenwardy |
The checkboxes in the table were for row selection, checking the header box selected or deselected all rows |
| 02:33 |
rubenwardy |
It was an indeterminate checkbox as well |
| 02:33 |
erle |
that sounds sensible |
| 02:33 |
rubenwardy |
If some but not all rows were selected, it showed a bar |
| 02:33 |
erle |
i once suggested to dragan espenschied years ago that it should be possible to make a calculus for UI |
| 02:34 |
erle |
to determine the power of UI elements |
| 02:34 |
erle |
the spinning beachball of death is the halting problem |
| 02:36 |
erle |
rubenwardy can i influence the colors you are using for the mod thing btw? |
| 02:36 |
erle |
you can desaturate them or use gimps colorblindness filter to see why they are hard to read for some (e.g. me) |
| 02:36 |
erle |
i can figure out better colors, but i'll only do it if you want that |
| 02:41 |
erle |
rubenwardy thank you for mentioning the license laundering on https://blog.rubenwardy.com/2022/06/22/gpt-3-minetest-modding/ |
| 02:41 |
erle |
it was a funny read |
| 02:41 |
erle |
the rise of the full-stack-overflow programmer |
| 02:42 |
erle |
i wonder how many security issues will be reurgitated that way |
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| 13:59 |
Quandale |
Good morning guys |
| 14:06 |
Quandale |
GPT 3's Minetest mod AI is really something, ain't it? |
| 14:20 |
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| 14:29 |
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| 14:39 |
erle |
Quandale just like rubenwardy wrote, the thing is a cargo cult machine |
| 14:39 |
erle |
it is certainly amusing |
| 14:39 |
rubenwardy |
about as skilled as a beginner dev, they also cargo cult |
| 14:39 |
Quandale |
What does cargo cult mean |
| 14:39 |
erle |
well, not if you force them not to |
| 14:41 |
erle |
Quandale as the story goes, on some island troops had an airfield during a war. the indigenous population was inspired by this and created a new religion in which you make an airfield out of wood or hay or so and do rituals so “john frum” (john from america?) delivers supplies |
| 14:41 |
erle |
in terms of programming it means something like … putting together pieces, hoping to get an effect, but not really understanding any of it |
| 14:41 |
Quandale |
Ah okay |
| 14:42 |
erle |
in other words, the AI understands the minetest API as much as google translate understands language, i.e. not very much |
| 14:43 |
erle |
you can easily see that if you compare it to programs that are specifically written to understand languages, e.g. compilers |
| 14:44 |
erle |
IMO btw, the existence of sufficiently smart compilers means the chinese room argument is a riddle for non-programmers ;) |
| 14:45 |
erle |
rubenwardy i have never seen beginner devs that were as dumb as the AI is for long. so … can it learn beyond what you showed in some way? |
| 14:45 |
erle |
with feedback or so? |
| 14:45 |
rubenwardy |
It can fix bugs if you get it error messages |
| 14:46 |
rubenwardy |
s/get/give |
| 14:46 |
rubenwardy |
https://rwdy.uk/MekgP.png |
| 14:46 |
erle |
i wonder if it makes common errors, given it is trained on buggy code (all code is buggy until proven otherwise) |
| 14:47 |
erle |
or if it makes its own errors as an artifact of the training process or the structure of itself |
| 14:47 |
MTDiscord |
<GoodClover> It can't "learn" (P stands for Pre-trained), but can improve on it's own output if asked. |
| 14:47 |
erle |
i mean i have even written a semgrep rule to find dupe bugs in mods ;) |
| 14:51 |
Quandale |
Why is papyrus so rare in MTG? Can't find a single block of it across hundreds of blocks |
| 14:57 |
erle |
Quandale others might be able to reproduce it with seed and coordinates |
| 14:59 |
Quandale |
13721338859501107996 |
| 14:59 |
Quandale |
Every seed I've been getting as of late is snowy and barely any papyrus |
| 15:04 |
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| 15:05 |
Quandale |
Sorry abt my absence, some weird stuffs been happening to my hexchat but I fixed it and I'm back |
| 15:06 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> An AI that programs as well as a 6-year-old is actually pretty impressive considering that it takes WAY less than 6 years to train it. |
| 15:07 |
erle |
given the disaster that microsoft tay was, i think maybe you need to raise AIs |
| 15:08 |
Quandale |
Considering that the AI was made for text rather than surviving |
| 15:08 |
erle |
like, curate the input |
| 15:08 |
sfan5 |
"Every seed I've been getting as of late is snowy" that's normal |
| 15:09 |
erle |
well, microsoft tay became a simulation of a neonazi teen with daddy issues in about 16 hours, before microsoft pulled the plug on their “let's train our AI on what is on twitter” experiment |
| 15:10 |
erle |
i mean you would probably not let a newborn unsupervised on twitter |
| 15:10 |
erle |
so a fresh AI should not be fed that either |
| 15:10 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Sounds like they tried to make an AI that imitated humanity, and sadly enough, succeeded. |
| 15:10 |
erle |
that's the problem, yes |
| 15:10 |
erle |
i mean, arguably the problem is where they put it |
| 15:10 |
Quandale |
Train the AI on something more civil than Twitter, like Modern Warfare 2 lobbies |
| 15:11 |
erle |
on fediverse it would have been a simulation of a queer anarchist teen with daddy issues |
| 15:11 |
definitelya |
Newborn: literally doesn't understand what people are. |
| 15:11 |
erle |
Quandale that made me smile |
| 15:12 |
erle |
i want an AI that was trained on kilbith but only writes comments, so the comments are sufficiently mean |
| 15:12 |
erle |
“comment this code in the style of $PERSON” |
| 15:12 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> It's a novel life-form whose daddy is a civilization made principally out of meat; it'd be hard NOT to have issues. |
| 15:12 |
erle |
uh great now you reminded me i am made out of meat |
| 15:12 |
erle |
how do you do fellow humans |
| 15:12 |
definitelya |
Fascinating |
| 15:14 |
Quandale |
What if you could turn the skeleton block that appears when you die into bonemeal |
| 15:15 |
ROllerozxa |
how do you do fellow humans made out of meat |
| 15:15 |
definitelya |
Quandale: That's illegal! Also useful. |
| 15:28 |
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| 15:30 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> We're not "made [solely] out of meat". Bones aren't meat. |
| 15:36 |
celeron55 |
as it concerns electronics, we're bags of salty water |
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MTDiscord |
<Benrob0329> Technically bones contain meat if you're willing to stretch the definition to include marrow |
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| 16:56 |
Noisytoot |
Does Minetest 5.5.1 work with OpenGL 2.1 for anyone else? For me, it fails with https://u.piss.ar/tmp/StiF32R17e.txt. It works with LLVMpipe (LIBGL_ALWAYS_SOFTWARE=true). |
| 16:58 |
sfan5 |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/12467 |
| 16:58 |
sfan5 |
if you have enough details so I can reproduce this then I can fix it |
| 17:03 |
sfan5 |
also consider trying with LIBGL_DEBUG=1 MESA_DEBUG=context and see if that says more |
| 17:05 |
Noisytoot |
It does not, except complaining that ~/.drirc does not exist |
| 17:06 |
sfan5 |
ok |
| 17:06 |
sfan5 |
are you using flatpak as in the issue or? |
| 17:10 |
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| 17:14 |
Noisytoot |
I am not using flatpak, I am using the package from GNU Guix |
| 17:24 |
sfan5 |
wayland/x11? which gpu? |
| 17:26 |
Noisytoot |
X11 and the integrated GPU on the Intel Core 2 Duo P8600 |
| 17:33 |
Krock |
if llvmpipe works, you might as well blame the Intel drivers |
| 17:33 |
Noisytoot |
LLVMpipe uses a different OpenGL version by default. I can also reproduce this if I set LIBGL_ALWAYS_SOFTWARE=true MESA_GL_VERSION_OVERRIDE=2.1, which should make it use software rendering with OpenGL 2.1. |
| 17:33 |
Krock |
unless you're missing an opengl library for that |
| 17:34 |
Krock |
yes, I can reproduce this |
| 17:35 |
Krock |
3.0 is the first working OpenGL version |
| 17:40 |
sfan5 |
if you can the output with --trace might provide a hint |
| 17:40 |
sfan5 |
but might also not, in any case this needs a deeper look |
| 17:41 |
Krock |
2022-07-07 19:41:06: VERBOSE[Main]: Irrlicht: GLX >= 1.3 |
| 17:41 |
Krock |
the only relevant line (and last one) before the error |
| 17:41 |
sfan5 |
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ |
| 17:42 |
Krock |
source/Irrlicht/CGLXManager.cpp |
| 17:49 |
Krock |
I don't even have an idea how or where CGLXManager even is initialized... would be best to open an issue for that on GitHub, Noisytoot |
| 17:58 |
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| 18:10 |
Noisytoot |
Done. |
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Noisytoot |
I can reproduce this with the latest master, but only in release mode. In debug mode, it sometimes works, but sometimes fails due to another error ( https://u.piss.ar/tmp/CPLVfa1oqS.txt ). |
| 19:57 |
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| 19:59 |
sfan5 |
..xcb? |
| 19:59 |
sfan5 |
Minetest does not use libxcb |
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| 21:07 |
erle |
Noisytoot i recently encountered a problem like this on reform2 |
| 21:08 |
Noisytoot |
reform2? |
| 21:08 |
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| 21:09 |
erle |
MNT reform2, an imx8-based laptop that needs no binary blobs and has schematics. a friend of mine makes these: https://mntre.com/media/reform_md/2020-05-08-the-much-more-personal-computer.html |
| 21:09 |
erle |
the thing is, i doubt it is an intel driver bug |
| 21:10 |
erle |
there are a bunch of devs who will always first suspect it is an intel driver bug though ;) |
| 21:10 |
erle |
the intel integrated GPU drivers do not seem to have a good reputation |
| 21:12 |
erle |
Noisytoot 00:02.1 Display controller: Intel Corporation Mobile 945GM/GMS/GME, 943/940GML Express Integrated Graphics Controller (rev 03) |
| 21:12 |
erle |
should i be able to reproduce it using that? |
| 21:12 |
erle |
if so, give me a revision |
| 21:12 |
erle |
and i can compile |
| 21:14 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Looking at the bare specs - and ignoring feats like OSS - the Reform 2 seems pretty overpriced to me |
| 21:14 |
Noisytoot |
5.5.1 |
| 21:30 |
erle |
luatic i guess you have to build your own then |
| 21:31 |
erle |
some girl from australia is doing it apparently |
| 21:32 |
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| 21:39 |
Noisytoot |
5.5.1 build in debug mode is also unaffected by this bug |
| 21:39 |
Noisytoot |
s/build/built/ |
| 21:45 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> erle: heh, nah, decent laptops exist; I don't need to know the circuitry in great detail |
| 21:46 |
Quandale |
Do you know where the textures for MTG are? I look in the textures folder and I only see the texture pack I have equipped |
| 21:54 |
erle |
Noisytoot please tell me exactly how to reproduce |
| 21:55 |
erle |
luatic the question is if you are willing to put up with asshole behaviour by vendors. like … “genuine batteries” |
| 21:55 |
erle |
the thinkpad T450 has a list of “allowed“ screens, so if you upgrade it, the backlight adjustment is disabled |
| 21:55 |
erle |
stuff like that |
| 22:01 |
Noisytoot |
erle: Compile minetest 5.5.1 in release mode and then run it (with MESA_GL_VERSION_OVERRIDE=2.1 if your GPU supports OpenGL >2.1) |
| 22:12 |
erle |
Noisytoot which GPU do you have? |
| 22:12 |
Noisytoot |
Intel Core 2 Duo P8600 integrated GPU |
| 22:13 |
Noisytoot |
I can reproduce it using LLVMpipe (LIBGL_ALWAYS_SOFTWARE=true) too. |
| 22:35 |
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| 22:39 |
erle |
Noisytoot what does lspci say about your GPU? |
| 22:43 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> Quandale: games/minetest_game/mods/.../textures/ |
| 22:44 |
Quandale |
games is empty |
| 23:01 |
Noisytoot |
erle: This is the entire output of lspci: https://u.piss.ar/tmp/5wmRCDMB7m.txt |
| 23:01 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> Oh, didn't you install via flatpak or something, Quandale? Can't help you there |
| 23:02 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> Just need to find the builtin game dir |
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