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IRC log for #minetest, 2022-07-05

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Time Nick Message
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11:36 MTDiscord <K.W.555> people use this?
11:39 ROllerozxa what does it look like?
11:40 ROllerozxa anyways yes, people still use IRC, just because you don't doesn't mean it's dead
11:47 comrad it never will be obsolete
11:53 Oblomov obligatory xkcd https://xkcd.com/1782/
11:55 celeron55 IRC is like the CB radio of the internet. it won't die
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12:00 muurkha the CB radio of the internet is http://www.icb.net/
12:01 muurkha currently 58 users
12:03 celeron55 well, maybe technically, but not socially
12:04 celeron55 if i've never heard of it, it can't be the CB of the internet
12:16 muurkha being virtually unknown and little-used except by old people seems socially exactly like CB radio :)
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12:30 ROllerozxa Oblomov: the hover text makes it even funnier, "2078: He announces that he's finally making the jump from screen+irssi to tmux+weechat." xD
12:31 Oblomov ROllerozxa: hence the title of this post http://wok.oblomov.eu/tecnologia/ready-for-2078/
12:37 ROllerozxa haha perfect, glad I'm not the only one who reads the XKCD hover texts
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13:00 MTDiscord <luatic> you're not :)
13:00 MTDiscord <luatic> Anyways folks, I've written a powerful debug mod: https://github.com/appgurueu/dbg
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14:59 sfan5 reading some MCL2 code and
14:59 sfan5 -- TODO: Change meta:get/set_string() to get/set_float() for "last_gametime".
14:59 sfan5 -- In Windows *_float() works OK but under Linux it returns rounded unusable values like 449540.000000000
14:59 sfan5 wut
14:59 MTDiscord <SX> I don't think restricting /lua chat command to singleplayer is really useful at all and generally limits use. On the other hand I guess ppl running mod with insecure env wont update it anyway befor reading through stuff.
15:03 MTDiscord <SX> For example it is extremely rare for me to test in single player mode instead of running dev server in local network, but main thing is that ppl who allow insecure env should undestand risks. Ofc nice to have warning in docs or something but still I don't think generic debugger mod really needs restrictions like that in name of security...
15:24 MTDiscord <luatic> Ideally you won't be executing Lua code in the chat anyways, but rather executing /dbg to execute code in the console
15:26 MTDiscord <luatic> sfan5: that's particularly odd because gametime always is an integer
15:27 MTDiscord <luatic> that said, [gs]et_float should probably use doubles under the hood
15:30 MTDiscord <luatic> SX: if you don't want the restriction, simply edit the sources. I had originally made a secure.* setting but MT won't let me register that in settingtypes; an insecure setting would be pointless since that could be changed using /set.
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15:48 sfan5 @luatic I assume by rounded they meant the ".00000" fractional part
15:48 sfan5 which makes no sense since 123.00000 == 123
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16:26 MTDiscord <SX> Yes, I kinda meant that editing sources is kind of okayish because ppl who run mods in insecure env without isolated dev server should for sure also read code before installing or updating it. It just seems to me useless to do single player check on mod like that, imo better would be to educate users through configuration for example instead of just making obscure claim about single possible attack vector.
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16:32 MTDiscord <SX> It is kinda making it feel somehow safe to use in servers because dangerous stuff is automatically disabled even while it has no protection agains other mods (which imo is good thing but making it feel like somehow safe isn't)
16:34 MTDiscord <luatic> The "Security" section in the Readme covers this.
16:35 MTDiscord <luatic> BTW I've just found hecks make the very same claim in #/10206
16:35 MTDiscord <luatic> #10206
16:35 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/10206 -- Add network encryption into minetest
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17:56 CowboyLv Hi
17:57 MTDiscord <ROllerozxa> hello
17:57 CowboyLv Oh it works. I'm new and I want to know something.
17:58 CowboyLv Can you upgrade derived assets from CC3 licence its CC4 variant?
17:58 CowboyLv to it's*
18:00 CowboyLv Maybe it's a dev-channel only question, but this chat seems empty, so.. idk. My appologies if this is annoying.
18:03 sfan5 the dev channel isn't less "empty" and it's also not an easy question
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18:19 * Pexin just want write soft ware.  *but lawyers watching...!*
18:19 * Pexin peers around nervously
18:23 CowboyLv @Pexin :DD
18:27 CowboyLv Posted an ellaborated question to the dev channel 4 now
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19:50 MTDiscord <luatic> CowboyLv: Pretty sure you can't. StackOverflow tried and ultimately gave up.
19:50 MTDiscord <luatic> See https://meta.stackexchange.com/questions/333678/was-the-retroactive-change-to-cc-by-sa-4-0-approved-by-stack-exchanges-lawyers
19:51 MTDiscord <luatic> > Upgrading from prior versions to 4.0 >  > Existing content: >  >     Who owns the rights? >         … >         If the contributors, then need permission to relicense. Without permission (via terms of use or otherwise), then that content remains under prior version.
19:51 MTDiscord <luatic> => you can't upgrade, you're stuck at 3.0
19:52 MTDiscord <luatic> https://meta.stackexchange.com/questions/344491/an-update-on-creative-commons-licensing
19:53 CowboyLv Ok, will either have all assets CC3 or do split licensing originals CC4, derivatives CC3
19:55 CowboyLv One more thing tho. If a sapling has the dirt clump of mtg saplings, and everything else by me, is it still a derivative(remix) or I can have own license there
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20:33 sfan5 you will need a lawyer to answer whether a pixely dirt clump meets the bar of being copyrightable
20:33 sfan5 or much easier, just play it safe with licenses
20:36 definitelya_ "Uhm, it's actually clay, of the brown variety. ¬_¬"
20:38 muurkha potentially not just a lawyer but actually a judge
20:38 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> I'm going to start putting "CC-BY 4.0 or later" on my stuff now
20:38 muurkha or even an en-banc circuit court rehearing
20:39 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Then again, everything new I make is more or less CC0
20:39 definitelya_ Benrob: Nice
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20:45 muurkha Benrob0329: that's awesome!
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21:58 Quandale Hey guys, what mods do you guys recommend installing?
21:58 MTDiscord <ROllerozxa> stapled bread is a must
21:58 Quandale Okay
22:02 Quandale How do I increase the spawn rate of mobs? I have a animal mod installed
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22:05 Quandale Hey Verticen_
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22:36 Quandale Guys, why are doors taking a while to open on my world? I'm still able to mine and place blocks with no delay, it just seems to be doors opening and closing that delay.
22:36 Quandale Also inventory updates
22:38 Quandale Update: After a few minutes, delay seems to have gotten much shorter.
22:38 muurkha my girlfriend and I have had that problem too, I think there's some kind of desync bug in the netcode
22:39 Quandale I'm on a singleplayer world
22:39 muurkha it's persisted over several versions
22:41 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Its probably not that dig and place isn't lagging, its likely that its all lagging but client prediction makes dig and place look fine
22:41 Quandale huh
22:42 Quandale Maybe my computer's just trash
22:43 muurkha GreenXenith: yeah, but I dont think it's lag
22:43 muurkha I mean it happens even on a single computer, with no chance for packet loss or network retransmissions or latency
22:54 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> All I can say is it works on everyone else's machine, which I know isn't helpful but there may still be something about your setup.
23:01 muurkha no, we've had the problem on several different machines, on a couple of different LANs, including my old laptop, my new laptop, her desktop, her laptop, and her brother's desktop, and evidently on Quandale's machine too, so it is emphatically not the case that "it works on everyone else's machine"
23:02 muurkha It occurs more often when we're playing over the network (rather than on a single host) and more often when the network is not a LAN
23:03 muurkha the most relevant symptom is that the log tells us it is dropping messages because there are too many of them, which seems to set up some kind of a metastable desynchronized state
23:03 muurkha but we don't know how it arises in the first place
23:03 Quandale I'll check the log wherever that is
23:03 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> It does, in fact, "work on everyone else's machine", in the sense that the majority of users do not experience this issue
23:05 muurkha I don't think we have good enough statistics to know whether that's true, but even if that *were* true, there's an enormous difference between "everyone else" and "the majority of users"
23:05 muurkha Quandale: debug.log
23:06 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Such a small difference in semantics does not warrant this level of debate.
23:06 Quandale lol, the fanbase is so small that our 7 computers are the majority of users
23:06 muurkha oh actually we saw them on the server console, running the server in a terminal.  I don't actually remember if we saw them in debug.log
23:07 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Moving right along; it may be useful to find the common link between the machines on which this occurs. My guess is network configuration or client settings.
23:07 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Minetest works great on every machine, but only in the sense that it does what you configure it to do.  If you configure it to be broken then it faithfully will be.  Dropped packets suggest you have something installed that's too heavy for your systems or too poorly written for your network.
23:08 Quandale Is it debug.txt? I looked in there and couldn't find "dropped" or "message" or "too many"
23:08 muurkha GreenXenith: when you're debugging a problem, you have to be careful not to believe things that aren't true
23:08 muurkha Warr1024: I think actually Minetest has bugs from time to time :)
23:08 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Thank you for your estute observations
23:08 muurkha Warr1024: but yeah, it could easily be some misbehaved mod that produces lots of network traffic, and then Minetest handles the load shedding badly
23:09 Quandale I'll run minetest from the terminal and see what I can find.
23:09 muurkha I don't know where to start looking at the network traffic though
23:09 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I've found it very easy when modding to introduce storms of packets that make the game seem fine on beefy setups but greatly raise the minimum bar for playability, which bites anyone running systems with any capacity challenges.
23:10 Quandale Shoot, I installed my copy of minetest from flathub. It might be a different command that I forgot than just "minetest"
23:10 MTDiscord <Warr1024> MT basically blindly trusts mods for a lot of things.  If you call set_sky then it will send a "set sky" packet to the client.  It doesn't care if you sent the exact same packet 50ms ago, it leaves the modder in charge of making sure that it only calls the API method with a legit change.
23:11 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Flatpak could be half the problem :D
23:11 muurkha at one point my best guess was that the total mount of network traffic was actually reasonable but that it was getting buffered up for retransmission over a Zerotier tunnel
23:11 muurkha or over Wi-Fi
23:11 muurkha and so three seconds of traffic would arrive all at once in a burst
23:11 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Flatpak has worked well for me but I've never run it on anemic hardware.  Eliminating compiling issues as a variable is one nice thing though.
23:11 muurkha but that doesn't explain the cases where it happens on a single machine
23:11 Quandale I'll install another copy over apt and see if anything changes
23:13 MTDiscord <Warr1024> What is the one common denominator between all the machines you tested but not with other machines that are able to run MT decently?  Is it some particular mods or config or something?
23:14 muurkha unfortunately I don't have access to any machines that never have this problem
23:14 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> It sounded like a few of the machines were also on the same network, though net stuff should be irrelevant on singleplayer
23:14 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Is this all about doors taking a while to open?
23:15 muurkha doors taking a while to open is the most conspicuous symptom
23:15 Quandale Yeah pretty much
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23:15 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I've noticed slow doors too.  I don't even understand that one because I don't think I've seen door delays in NodeCore on single player.
23:16 muurkha other symptoms include blocks reappearing after you dig them, damage and breath appearing much later (sometimes 30 seconds or a minute later), etc.
23:16 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I assume MTG doors is the common thing here ... maybe MTG doors are just weird.
23:16 Quandale I dont really get those symptoms muurkha
23:16 muurkha chests take a while to open
23:16 muurkha it's possible they might be different problems, Quandale!
23:16 MTDiscord <Warr1024> The block reappearing thing happens when server lag is bad enough that prediction gets rolled back.  I only see that one when the database is stalling.
23:17 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> It also happens on poor network connection
23:17 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Source: my garbage internet
23:18 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I had major performance problems with the default SQLite backend on some machines.  Enabling journal_mode=wal reduced the problem by like 95%.  Migrating to postgresql fixed them wholly.
23:18 muurkha oh, interesting!  I'll try that when I see the problem again
23:19 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Did we establish if other mods were enabled?
23:19 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I noted slow doors when I was testing a map I had converted to MTG from MC.  Before that ... well, I hadn't really touched MTG in a few years so I guess I just assumed maybe it had always been like that.
23:19 Quandale Oh yeah, other mods were enabled, let me list those off
23:20 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> (Vanilla MTG should not have any such issues if on capable hardware)
23:21 Quandale armor3d, awards, connected_chests, enderpearl, hangglider, hopper, i3, mg, mobs, mobs_animal, moreblocks, pathv7, skinsdb
23:21 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> I ran minetest on a celeron d with 256mb ram the other day for fun, and while it only had about 5fps, there was no noticeable lag
23:22 MTDiscord <Warr1024> It just takes one wrong mod to spoil the soup...
23:22 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Mg and pathv7 are both mapgen mods right?
23:22 Quandale The issue popped up when mg was installed, maybe it's because there's way too many chests and doors in one chunk
23:22 Quandale Also yes both are mapgen
23:23 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Not entirely sure why you'd even want mg over builtin mapgens, as its pretty similar to v6
23:24 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> But regardless, both mods are highly suspect in the case of database issues
23:24 Quandale Because it has villages and I wanted villages, I thought the chests would hold uncraftable items at random
23:24 Quandale Ender pearls being one of those uncraftable items
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23:25 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Ah, so it does. There are standalone village mods, in case you are interested or end up needing to remove mg
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23:26 Quandale Okay, I'll install a standalone over mg and see how that goes
23:27 MTDiscord <Warr1024> You can generally expect a mod to perform well, as long as your computer is at least as powerful as the one the mod's developer wrote and tested it on.
23:27 MTDiscord <Warr1024> For mod soups, it's not exactly like you can just take the maximum but that's not a bad lower bound, at least.
23:29 Quandale I installed the people mod on a new world and the same issue is popping up, inventory updates are delayed
23:29 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> I recall sokomine mentioning in conversation once how low spec their computer was, so their village mod must perform great :p (joke)
23:29 Quandale I'll try a new world with no mods
23:30 muurkha villages are cool
23:30 Quandale Delay is much less noticable without mods
23:31 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Much less, but still there? How long are we talking?
23:31 Quandale Like a single frame
23:31 Quandale Conclusion: I'm ditching mapgen mods
23:32 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> How delayed was it originally?
23:32 Quandale half a second to 2 seconds, outliers were 5 seconds
23:32 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Signing
23:32 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Significant
23:33 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Autocorrect go brrr
23:34 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> You shouldn't have to ditch mapgen mods entirely... usually a well made one performs well enough to not cause issues
23:34 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Not only that, mapgen mods shouldn't be causing any lag in already generated areas
23:34 Quandale Maybe I'll try my hand at making mods for crafting recipes for uncraftable items. What language are mods usually made in?
23:35 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> The game api is lua
23:35 Quandale Got it
23:35 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Haha, was almost about to say English.
23:35 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Actually as I understand it there's no way to translate MT content INTO English so the "no language" language kinda has to be English...?
23:36 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I forget.
23:36 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Programming an MT mod in anything other than Lua is tricky, and also requires that you write a non-Lua APi bridge at least partially in Lua ... so yeah, best just go with Lua.
23:37 Quandale Yep
23:40 Quandale I'll try modding another day. For now ima lurk
23:55 muurkha you should give it a try!  you can probably write your first mod from a modding tutorial in less than an hour
23:55 Quandale Okay
23:55 muurkha or, you can edit an existing mod you already have installed, for example to add a new crafting recipe
23:56 muurkha copy and paste an existing recipe and edit it
23:56 Quandale That makes way more sense
23:56 muurkha don't worry if you don't have experience with programming, because you can go a long way before you have to write any code more complicated than a function call with some literal data
23:58 Pexin Quandale muurkha: how much stuff is in those players' inventories? also including backpacks and nested inventory (digtron crates etc)?
23:59 Quandale I spawned in villages so nothing up until the first chest
23:59 Pexin serialization of big inventory data bloats the network

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