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IRC log for #minetest, 2022-06-13

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Time Nick Message
01:35 Parnikkapore_m <independent56> "And yet there are people who use..." <- *knocks on real life cars*
01:38 Parnikkapore_m tbf it is useful in cases where you can't cluster trips into lines
01:41 Parnikkapore_m I find building rail funner, but there's also bike infra (but to some extent it's a scaled down version of car things) running mostly parallel and to some low-traffic places
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01:43 Parnikkapore_m which makes my pillars of transport / transport hierarchy go walking, cycling, L/R/E trains
01:45 ball What's an L/R/E?
01:45 ball Local/Regional/Express?
01:47 Parnikkapore_m yup
01:47 ball It would be nice to live in a country with practical intercity rail service.
01:47 Parnikkapore_m way too many categories for Minetest but that's part of the fun
01:47 muurkha hmm, I've had an idea for a while about real-world automated light rapid transit in tunnels
01:48 muurkha PRT type
01:48 muurkha maybe I should build a demo
01:48 muurkha in Minetest
01:48 Parnikkapore_m ^ as someone who lives in a place where intercity rail is a last resort, I agree
01:49 ball muurkha: Tunnels are expensive.
01:49 muurkha basically the idea is that cities would be a lot better in a lot of ways with better transport
01:49 Parnikkapore_m muurkha: I made one https://parnikkapore.neocities.org/projects/mtprt.htm
01:49 muurkha yes, they are, but they get much cheaper when you make them much smaller, ball
01:49 Parnikkapore_m surface corridors tho since the actual infra isn't part of the project
01:49 muurkha my theory is that if you recline when you get into the vehicle then you can make the tunnel only about two meters tall
01:49 Parnikkapore_m cue "the Loop should be either a controlled access highway or a PRT"
01:50 ball muurkha: You'd like the Glasgow subway then.
01:50 muurkha if the riders are one behind the other then you can make it only about two meters wide
01:50 Parnikkapore_m yee check out glasgow subway
01:50 muurkha and if the whole vehicle only weighs about 400 kg then you can use dirt floors
01:51 muurkha no rails, no concrete floors, no concrete walls, just concrete ceilings
01:52 Parnikkapore_m not sure if concrete ceilings only would work
01:52 * ball looks confused
01:52 muurkha if you reserve the whole path from beginning to end when you start the journey, you don't have to worry about a vehicle in front of you stopping and you crashing into it
01:52 Parnikkapore_m rl geotechnical engineering is complex
01:52 Parnikkapore_m muurkha: sounds like a terribly inefficient system
01:52 muurkha well, it has the usual efficiencies of PRT
01:53 muurkha and by virtue of having tunnels that are an order of magnitude smaller and two orders of magnitude cheaper than what you need for even light rail, it costs enormously less per mile
01:54 ball I'm not convinced the cost of boring a tunnel decreases significantly with diameter
01:54 muurkha and because the path is clear from start to destination, you can go at much higher speeds
01:54 muurkha yeah, ideally you want to trench and cover, not bore
01:55 ball Some of the London Underground was built cut-and-cover
01:55 ball These days a subway has to be built further down, I think.
01:56 muurkha well, my utopian aspirations don't end there
01:56 ball You'd probably enjoy Jago Hazzard's channel on the YouTube.
01:56 ball I know I do.
01:57 muurkha I want to keep cars out of the city entirely, so what's running over the top of the tunnels is just parkland with people picnicking
01:57 muurkha not trucks and honking taxis
01:57 ball Good luck with that.
01:57 muurkha my notes from three years ago are in https://dercuano.github.io/notes/tunnel-prt.html
01:59 muurkha I was calculating with 1.5-meter diameter, but in Minetest I'd have to use 2-meter
01:59 * ball sighs
01:59 ball Time to reboot my wireless bridge again.
02:00 muurkha you could get anywhere within a 4-km radius in 5 minutes: 50 square kilometers or 5000 city blocks
02:00 muurkha plus half a minute on each end of the trip to walk to or from the station
02:02 muurkha Parnikkapore_m: your mod looks super cool!
02:03 muurkha I'm curious why you didn't go with keeping track of where each car is and picking out a car when someone calls it
02:03 Parnikkapore_m it's a build using advtrains and luaatc 😉
02:04 Parnikkapore_m muurkha: Mostly for complexity reasons. I also don't see the advantage other than knowing the arrival time of the empty car
02:05 muurkha yeah, I guess in Minetest you don't have to worry about empty cars running over people
02:06 Parnikkapore_m Nor energy efficiency
02:06 Parnikkapore_m A PRT like that should be grade separated anyway
02:06 muurkha nor wear
02:07 muurkha yeah, like I said, tunnels are my favored solution there
02:07 muurkha without rails!
02:08 Parnikkapore_m anw my main concern with dirt tunnels is about soil pressure causing the ground to bulge or worse
02:09 muurkha yeah, that's addressed in https://dercuano.github.io/notes/tunnel-prt.html#addtoc_3, isn't it?
02:09 muurkha or did you mean something else?
02:14 Parnikkapore_m it's less about shear failure and more about the ground pushing against the tunnel walls
02:20 muurkha oh, yeah, you do need to stabilize the walls.  do you know about mechanically stabilized earth?
02:22 Parnikkapore_m yup
02:22 Parnikkapore_m but I'm not sure if it'll help
02:23 Parnikkapore_m remember we're not dealing with load bearing capacity / shear failure here
02:24 muurkha do you mean compressive failure, tensile failure, creep...?
02:26 muurkha I'm no expert on geoengineering so I could totally be missing something basic
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15:42 sfan5 !mod mineclone2
15:42 MinetestBot sfan5: Quick Harvest &amp; Replant for MineClone2 / MineClone5 / Mineclonia [mcl_quick_harvest_replant] by erlehmann - https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?t=28104 - https://git.minetest.land/erlehmann/mcl_quick_harvest_replant
15:42 sfan5 no...
15:45 sfan5 rubenwardy: can you contribute a !cdb command? :D
16:08 MTDiscord <Jonathon> Discord minetest bot > irc minetest bot
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16:32 MinetestBot [git] sjml -> minetest/minetest: Fix permissions on workflow-generated macOS builds (#12422) c10fe7e https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/c10fe7ec18eed354a5b13c849198cede79041adc (2022-06-13T16:30:48Z)
16:32 MinetestBot [git] sfan5 -> minetest/minetest: Improve lua_api.txt a bunch 804c255 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/804c2559411fc1d03644a5eac2c37c7ea2ff79a7 (2022-06-13T16:31:03Z)
16:32 MinetestBot [git] Zughy -> minetest/minetest: lua_api.txt: add missing backticks 0f3f1a0 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/0f3f1a001c0dcaa91169bbc90900a47120bb2763 (2022-06-13T16:31:33Z)
16:36 rubenwardy Do we have any stats on the language use of our users?
16:36 rubenwardy I suppose Google Play is probably the extent of this, unless the server list gathers that info (which it probably shouldn't)
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16:55 MTDiscord <MNH48> even if the server list gathers that info, it might not be accurate anyway... since not everyone plays on servers that is listed in server list, some just play in LAN setting or private non-public Minetest servers
16:56 MTDiscord <MNH48> also some who play singleplayer only
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18:14 rubenwardy 64% of Google Play users have don't have English as their primary language
18:17 rubenwardy -> 12% Russian, 11,% Spanish, 9% German, 7% French, 4% portuguese
18:17 muurkha of those who installed Minetest from it, or overall?
18:17 rubenwardy Our current users
18:17 muurkha I installed it on my Spanish cellphone, but not from Google Play
18:18 rubenwardy if you don't have GPlay installed, then you won't be counted
18:18 rubenwardy I believe it may still count you if you have GPlay installed but install from another source, but not sure
18:18 muurkha I can't uninstall Google Play until and unless I root the phone
18:18 muurkha unfortunately
18:18 muurkha I could use the space
18:18 muurkha it's interesting that Russian is so popular and Arabic, Hindi, and Chinese are so unpopular
18:19 rubenwardy Anyway, I want to have a stat for number of non-English users to encourage modders to add translation support. 64% is compelling, even if not accurate
18:19 muurkha yeah
18:19 rubenwardy Chinese users will probably use another store
18:19 muurkha I wish I could type things like "ñ" and "é" in the chat
18:20 muurkha on desktop Linux, not Android
18:20 rubenwardy version? That should be fixed in newer versions
18:21 rubenwardy make sure you have at least 5.5.0, because that had a lot of keyboard and unicode fixes
18:21 muurkha 5.3.0
18:21 muurkha actually ñ works in 5.3.0 with a Spanish-language keyboard, but é etc. don't
18:22 rubenwardy yeah, definitely update then
18:22 sfan5 you can even type 具体的な単語 in chat if you so wanted in 5.5.0
18:22 sfan5 (Linux and Android only)
18:22 rubenwardy 2020 is 2 years old, 5.5.0 has loads of unicode fixes
18:22 rubenwardy 5.3.0 is 2 years old (2020), 5.5.0 has loads of unicode fixes
18:22 sfan5 "2020 is 2 years old" technically true
18:22 rubenwardy lol
18:23 muurkha <2020> no! I'm 2½!
18:23 muurkha that's sweet, I definitely want to type things like ☢ and ☣ in the chat
18:24 rubenwardy people forget that unicode isn't just emoji
18:24 muurkha well, I can hardly forget that speaking Spanish every day
18:25 muurkha but I like the emojiish things too!
18:26 muurkha maybe Russian is high and Arabic is low because of the fraction of ESL speakers in those languages — maybe English forums are still a memetically very important factor
18:27 muurkha by itself that doesn't really explain Hindi though, nor Russian being higher than German
18:29 MinetestBot [git] sfan5 -> minetest/minetest_game: Update engine feature checks 986b657 https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/commit/986b65775f3d7a89959f569c516af8c44b4bc7e3 (2022-06-13T18:02:08Z)
18:30 muurkha actually I guess that 2020 is 3 years old, if we consider it to have been born on Jan 1, 2020, rather than Dec 31, 2020
18:30 muurkha no, never mind, it's still 2½
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19:09 MTDiscord <MNH48> >it's interesting that Russian is so popular and Arabic, Hindi, and Chinese are so unpopular
19:09 MTDiscord <MNH48> Hindi and Arabic both need complex script support (where the text will change depending on position/sequence of the character)
19:09 MTDiscord <MNH48> which iirc is still not supported (so it will only display the base character instead)
19:09 MTDiscord <MNH48> so probably the people using those languages just don't play Minetest because of that
19:10 erle can you say how viable unifont is for these kinds of scripts?
19:10 MTDiscord <MNH48> it's not about font, it's about rendering
19:10 erle i know, but i wonder how viable a fixed-witth glyph setup is for this
19:10 erle width
19:10 MTDiscord <MNH48> like you can throw in supported font all you want, but if the rendering don't work it just don't
19:11 erle rubenwardy sfan5 how is the situation for scripts that go right to left?
19:11 rubenwardy poor
19:11 rubenwardy we don't support RTL text currently
19:12 erle *sad TV channel noises*
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19:25 muurkha MNH48: thanks!
19:26 muurkha erle: the issue is that for Arabic you have three or four different glyphs per character (code point) depending on whether it's at the beginning, middle, or end of a word, or by itself; and vowels are rendered as accents above or below the text
19:26 muurkha also it's RTL
19:27 muurkha Hindi is written in Devanagari, which is LTR, but the glyph for a syllable consists of the consonant with optionally a vowel sort of wrapped around it
19:32 muurkha in both cases you can do fixed-width glyphs I think, though I haven't seen an example; the problem is just that the codepoint-sequence-to-glyph-sequence mapping is sort of complicated
19:33 muurkha and although in principle you could do a set of mappings similar to the ones some terminals use for combining accents e + ’ → é, at least if the right side can contain multiple characters, that is a pretty unwieldy way to do it
19:34 muurkha erle: btw you might be interested in this non-minetest-related thing I wrote last month: http://canonical.org/~kragen/sw/dev3/trama
19:35 muurkha if you are the glitch URL erlehmann, apologies if that's a case of mistaken identity
19:37 MTDiscord <MNH48> that's basically what "complex script" behave in unicode, the actual 'character' (just one codepoint) is rendered differently depending on its position or sequence
19:51 erle muurkha yes i made libglitch
19:51 erle muurkha, are you kragen?
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19:55 MTDiscord <MNH48> for example on Arabic script, see how the in-game display it even with a font that fully support the Arabic script:
19:55 MTDiscord <MNH48> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/985995939556773898/2022-06-14_03-50-36_minetest.png
19:56 MTDiscord <MNH48> versus what it actually is:
19:56 MTDiscord <MNH48> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/985995976865108028/unknown.png
19:56 MTDiscord <MNH48> plaintext: اين سواتو ڤرچوباٴن توليسن
19:56 erle wait i make a screenshot
19:58 rubenwardy how many possible users do we have that use a RTL language?
19:58 rubenwardy According to a random website, Arabic speakers make up 4.8% of the Internet
19:59 erle does this look correct? (hexchat, unifont) data:image/png;base64,iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAANcAAAAWAQMAAABpB5vnAAAABlBMVEUAAAD///+l2Z/dAAAAqklEQVQoU9XOwWqEYAyF0WMIP1oK6uCACzeKD9H3fy5ruxi1DLSl214uCcnHDeEvev2FdaD+lv2QC+g6uCG5qjA4jzJ8sfqRqy92bK+cMzd5ullllESXhZuSWSoyEfeMJoQumrd40UQ2d5GJ/h7RhF4XTanKwfpIzB/vW7uZtXu7V5t2y3Y3b4kZ1dkqh2ewGAQLYggeXobz65WJerU6PDk1Hq0eGa/xv+gT7AcQIFuA/R0AAAAASUVORK5CYII=
19:59 rubenwardy looks like a data url with base64
20:00 erle hand it to a web browser and you see how  اين سواتو ڤرچوباٴن توليسن renders here
20:00 MTDiscord <MNH48> (after using base64 to image converter) it does look correct
20:00 erle what is a “base64 to image converter”?
20:00 MTDiscord <MNH48> https://codebeautify.org/base64-to-image-converter
20:01 MTDiscord <MNH48> because you sent base64 strings lol
20:01 erle you can put that stuff right in the address bar of your browser or right click the link and open it or so if your url handler supports the data: scheme
20:01 rubenwardy putting strange URLs into the address bar? Haxor
20:02 erle you can convert small files to data URIs using this tool i wrote http://news.dieweltistgarnichtso.net/bin/file2datauri
20:02 MTDiscord <MNH48> oh, that actually work... just put in the address bar
20:02 MTDiscord <MNH48> but yes, that's correct
20:03 erle https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTTP/Basics_of_HTTP/Data_URLs
20:03 erle data:[<mediatype>][;base64],<data>
20:04 erle data:text/html,<script>alert('lol%20haxx');</script>
20:15 Pexin I've been haxd?   ._.
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21:33 muurkha erle: yes
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21:35 muurkha rubenwardy: Arabic speakers total about 620 million according to WP, which would be about 8% of the world, so 4.8% of the internet sounds pretty plausible
21:42 muurkha https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_total_number_of_speakers says Ethnologue puts MSA a little lower at only 274 million (3.5%), #6 in the world, behind French (274.1 million, 3.5%), Spanish (548M, 7%), Hindi (602M, 8%), Mandarin (1120M, 14%), and of course English (1460M, 19%)
21:42 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6 -- Apples on the trees can not be eaten
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22:01 MTDiscord <MNH48> don't forget that Arabic script issue would not just affect Arabic language, because there's a lot of languages that also use Arabic script such as Urdu, Persian, etc
22:03 MTDiscord <MNH48> also the RTL issue also affect Hebrew (iirc the issue that got opened and now kept as some sort of 'tracker' was about Hebrew) so it's not just Arabic
22:15 muurkha yeah, and Urdu itself is almost as big as MSA (Pakistan is huge), but Hebrew is pretty small, only about 9 million (0.1%)
22:16 muurkha erle: nice to see you again
22:20 muurkha luatic: I remembered today that I did once have a bug due to Lua's implicit floating point that took me an hour or two to track down.  I'd hacked together a quick 2-D physics simulation: https://gitlab.com/kragen/bubbleos/blob/master/spikes/circles.lua
22:20 muurkha it says it was only an hour actually
22:21 muurkha the balls were bouncing in the desired way in terms of their Y coordinate, but their X coordinates were all over the place, and I was having a hard time figuring out why
22:24 erle muurkha can you tell me why with the glitch music people wanted arbitrary formulas?
22:24 muurkha finally I figured it out.  the calculated X coordinates were fine, it was the displayed ones that were totally wrong.  and they were wrong because the code to index into the pixel buffer is basically ypic.p + y * ypic.stride + x
22:24 muurkha here ypic.p is actually a memory pointer handled by LuaJIT's FFI
22:26 muurkha if you pass in a fractional y here you get totally bogus results; in fact if your ypic is supposed to be a rectangular window inside a larger buffer, the calculated pixel offset can actually be outside that window
22:26 muurkha without so much implicit coercion it would have been easy to figure out
22:26 erle muurkha have you made minetest mods?
22:26 muurkha erle: what do you mean about the formulas?
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22:27 erle muurkha libglitch has no loops and the computation for the sample will always terminate in a finite number of steps (unless i dun goofed)
22:27 muurkha I made a simple mod.  it adds a teapot.  then my girlfriend added recipes to use the teapot to make different kinds of tea
22:27 muurkha erle: that's true
22:28 muurkha but that's also true of arbitrary formulas, isn't it?
22:28 erle muurkha check out my e guitar. simple enough to run on a microcontroller (the problem is the output though) http://news.dieweltistgarnichtso.net/bin/pluck.c
22:28 muurkha dividing by 3 is bad on a microcontroller
22:29 erle well, IBNIZ sucks for live music coding
22:29 erle because you can get no sample
22:29 muurkha so is dividing by 172
22:30 erle maybe you can fiddle with the constants a bit to make it more palatable
22:30 muurkha dividing by 29412 is worse
22:31 muurkha I did the same naughty division thing in http://canonical.org/~kragen/sw/dev3/ks1.c though
22:32 muurkha and in http://canonical.org/~kragen/sw/dev3/ks.c
22:33 muurkha and in http://canonical.org/~kragen/sw/dev3/ks-string.c
22:33 erle hey yours is so much shorter lol
22:33 muurkha yours might sound better though, I haven't tried it
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22:34 erle try it
22:34 erle mine is hackery upon hackery
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22:34 muurkha a better approach for a microcontroller is in http://canonical.org/~kragen/sw/dev3/ks-tiny.c
22:34 erle low-pass filter? why, if i can use the % operator
22:34 erle no one is going to notice anyway
22:35 erle i forgot what the thing before “almost obvious” does though
22:35 muurkha on an AVR the slowdown for using the % or / operator is very very noticeable
22:35 muurkha especially in more than 8 bits
22:36 muurkha the low-pass filter in ks-string.c was to try to get a more piano-like sound.  it was not very successful
22:37 muurkha yours plays an actual score, which is a lot more than any of those versions did
22:38 muurkha do you know about the mini-language interpreted by the old GW-BASIC command PLAY?
22:39 muurkha what were you saying about loops and arbitrary formulas?
22:44 muurkha I think the |0x17 limits the range of the random number a little
22:50 muurkha maybe to avoid a division by zero
22:52 muurkha because at one point you assign R, the random number, to r_size, the length of the digital delay line
22:53 muurkha and in several places you, naturally enough, do something % r_size to calculate a sample index
22:55 muurkha which will usually result in dying with a division by zero if r_size happens to be 0
22:59 muurkha also you set damper to R periodically.  not sure if anything particularly bad happens if damper - 37 goes negative
23:01 muurkha by making R always return a smallish value, I did get it to start generating white noise instead of bass guitar sounds
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23:12 muurkha a general strategy for getting a digital delay line synthesizer with variable delay without division is to use a power-of-2 buffer size and calculate the lagged sample as buf[t - lag & bufsiz - 1]
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23:19 muurkha oh, the white noise is because it's fine for damper - 37 to be negative occasionally but if damper - 37 is always negative it resets every sample
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