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IRC log for #minetest, 2022-05-04

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01:18 erle wsor wait are mesh faces treated better?
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04:56 erle basicer oh what did the complicated CSMs do?
04:56 erle (moving here because it is not an engine discussion)
05:01 basicer Oh, they did things like talk to the raspberry pi's GPIO, apply local block changes in bulk, animate some entities without the server bossing them around, etc.
05:23 erle i have made bushier leaves by means of nodebox trickery :D https://mister-muffin.de/p/LzOY.png
05:31 basicer Most of the stuff from that era is long forgotten, but I did manage to opensource a pretty cool trigger mod.
05:37 erle basicer show?
05:37 erle basicer did you ever look at cheat clients btw?
05:37 erle basicer also, CSM-wise how did you drive the GPIO?
05:41 erle basicer my friend li0n made a rumble CSM to control the vibration motor in xbox-compatible gamepads (and some other, hornier hardware). now the thing is, we need a pythonr intermediary for that. it would be much nicer to talk directly with intiface (the haptic middleware).
05:41 erle if you have any idea how to do that from a CSM i would be very intereste
05:41 erle d
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06:01 erle my bushy leaves work with repixture too, but the fakery is all too obvious: https://mister-muffin.de/p/fAqU.png
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06:18 basicer We had a bunch of C++ patches on top of minetest that exposed APIs to lua to do it.
06:20 basicer just linked against some C++ library for rpi
06:20 basicer linked against libmpv to play videos
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06:49 erle rubenwardy, sorry, now i apparently did not click on the link fast enough, i just fell asleep. and i can not login anymore into my account because *now* it is locked … could you resend again? or tell me where to click for that?
06:50 erle ROllerozxa, check this out https://git.minetest.land/erlehmann/bushy_leaves/src/branch/master/screenshot.png
06:51 MTDiscord <ROllerozxa> owo yes I see
06:51 erle ROllerozxa also pls tell me which nodes besides normal legos and leaves need nodebox fuckery applied. your tip with the plantlikes gave me a new hyperfixation it seems (nodeboxes).
06:52 erle also how did no one before make these two simple mods? o.0
06:52 erle well
06:52 erle maybe they made them and they are just not on contentdb
06:52 erle i think i'll try to figure out how to make waterlogged stairs some time soon
07:02 MTDiscord <ROllerozxa> maybe more detailed 3D vegetation (grass and flowers) using nodeboxes? might need more work but it could look nice
07:06 MTDiscord <ROllerozxa> I think you may actually be the very first to make an actual lego studs and bushy leaves mod. I was personally quite surprised over the fact nobody had made mods for more fine-grained flight speed control and pickblocking nodes (which are quite trivial), because from what I am aware of I ended up being the first one who made those mods :)
07:10 MTDiscord <ROllerozxa> oh and same thing with a simple mod that reenables shadows in recent 5.6.0-dev versions, someone really should have beat me to it but I guess people just used an earlier 5.6.0-dev version if they wanted shadows :P
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07:38 jluc there is so possibly much to do ...
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07:53 MTDiscord <ROllerozxa> jluc: what do you think of minetest?
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11:26 jluc i introduced my son to games with minetest
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11:27 jluc but now he only plays minecraft and others alike
11:27 jluc but i dont play myself really
11:29 jluc i regret he doesnt wanna play minetest
11:29 jluc i once edited a mod to discover and show him how to make a bigger bomb
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11:31 jluc but now he wanna learn C# for unity or java for minecraft
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11:32 jluc he does scratch allready and thinks he can do anything
11:32 jluc maybe lua could be an introduction to "text code" programming
11:44 MinetestBot [git] appgurueu -> minetest/minetest: Add vector.combine (#11920) ae76645 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/ae7664597ed15f9ac779a9bac0595ab4125457c4 (2022-05-04T11:44:14Z)
11:44 orwell96 true, Lua/Minetest is definitely an easier start into programming than Java or C#. These are object-oriented programming languages so you have to learn about OOP theory first, while MT modding is just write-some-lua-and-go-ahead
11:45 orwell96 also, does MC even have an official modding API yet?
11:46 MTDiscord <luatic> I am convinced that Lua is the most beginner-friendly programming language out there.
11:47 MTDiscord <ROllerozxa> "does MC even have an official modding API yet?" lol, mcfunction
11:48 erle i am convinced that lua is the most beginner-friendly footgun out there
11:48 erle have a typo? nil
11:48 erle hold the API wrong? nil
11:48 erle forget an argument somewhere? nil
11:50 orwell96 but it may be possible that your son is under peer pressure from his classmates. If everyone is playing Minecraft then he doesn't want to be that one guy that does not
11:50 Parnikkapore_m also don't forget local or you get weird scoping
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11:54 definitelya_ I'm so glad I took last year as a buffer to get into Minetest; I don't even miss Min$craft at all, tbh.
11:54 Parnikkapore_m orwell96: as the one guy who does not Minecraft I can say I'm lucky I haven't run into issues...
11:54 erle ROllerozxa https://git.minetest.land/erlehmann/mcl_mushrooms_3d/src/branch/master/screenshot.png ;)
11:59 orwell96 i used to play MC up to 1.5.2 (before the ominous "horse update"), then got tired of it and found out about MT. Back then I also tried modding, but it was incredibly tedious because MC is just not designed to be modded
11:59 orwell96 IDK if this has become better in later versions though
12:00 definitelya_ orwell96: Curseforge, the major mod sharing site, is now owned by Amazon. lol
12:01 orwell96 btw, Advanced Trains now has a Libera channel #advtrains
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12:48 MTDiscord <luatic> erle: this can be fixed using simple {__index = error} metatables (minetest logs warnings when you access undeclared globals) and linters such as luacheck
12:51 erle luatic it totally can be. there are also programs that allow you to write C code that is well-defined.
12:51 erle luatic do you have an idea what the next node is i could make a mod for on my nodebox rampage?
12:52 erle also how to waterlogged stairs
12:52 erle a mesh with a water-material ig?
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12:58 MTDiscord <luatic> waterlogged stairs probably aren't possibkle
12:59 MTDiscord <luatic> except for using entities or the like
12:59 MTDiscord <luatic> because you definitely need a flowingliquid drawtype for flowing water, and that can't have nodeboxes
13:13 erle luatic what if meshes
13:13 erle also yes fleckenstein managed to accidentally have an entity in a water
13:13 erle that was a bit weird
13:13 erle he had made a waterlogged chest
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13:18 definitelya_ erle: Hear me out here: what if fluid node with chest texture?
13:19 definitelya_ Your sight is distorted by water effect, it makes it cool looking maybe.
13:19 erle definitelya_ look my goal is having waterlogged stairs and slabs
13:19 definitelya_ aight
13:19 erle anyone here using winds3d?
13:19 erle it seems to have become shittier since last time i used it
13:19 erle also i forgot how to use it
13:20 erle shittier as in: first it claims to not run here, then i force mesa software rendering and it does run
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14:36 MTDiscord <ROllerozxa> erle: those 3d mushrooms remind me of those minecraft resource packs that take flat X-shaped sprite blocks and make them 3d using JSON block models :D
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14:45 erle ROllerozxa it's not that easy in this case though, i made them entirely by hand.
14:46 erle the plantlike mushrooms don't give you the top or bottom textures. thankfull, the big mushrooms have them.
14:46 MTDiscord <luatic> erle: meshes can hardly adapt to their environment
14:46 erle so i just seused them.
14:46 MTDiscord <luatic> you could somehow approximate this but it'd be very hacky
14:46 erle luatic what do you mean?
14:46 MTDiscord <luatic> flowing liquids can have 8 (?) different edge levels times 4 edges
14:47 MTDiscord <luatic> you'd need 32 different meshes
14:47 erle i'd be happy having a single fully waterlogged node for now.
14:47 MTDiscord <luatic> using rotations you could probably get this down to 8 again
14:47 MTDiscord <luatic> erle: I know, but that's not doable using a single mesh
14:47 erle any entity solution would be really stupidly slow
14:47 MTDiscord <luatic> except if you only want it to be waterlogged inside water sources, those always look the same
14:47 erle luatic what if i make it a water source node
14:47 erle yes
14:48 MTDiscord <luatic> that may somehow work
14:48 erle by putting a single plane with a water material on top of a stairs mesh or so?
14:48 MTDiscord <luatic> but still, how do you get the nearby water source nodes to hide their neighboring faces? and how does your node hide it's neighboring faces?
14:48 MTDiscord <luatic> nodeboxes always have 6 faces unfortunately
14:49 erle :(
14:49 erle you might be right, but then again
14:49 erle i am not sure how much smoke and mirrors one can employ here
15:16 kabou hey erle you made some cool mods
15:17 kabou I told cora we should add the bushy leaves  to mcl2 as an option
15:17 kabou maybe the nice little mushrooms too
15:19 kabou while you're at it, why not do the same for beetroots and carrots? little nodelets sticking out of the soil with a flat green plume on top
15:21 kabou beats arguing with cora over upstreaming stuff that debiankaios probably doesn't maintain upstream anymore since he merged it into mcl5 anyway
15:21 kabou lol srry trolling a bit there
15:21 kabou mods are really nice tho
15:21 kabou also liek the legos
15:21 kabou like
15:22 kabou don't call them legos tho or you'll get sued by evil megacorporations
15:22 kabou =(
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15:28 MTDiscord <luatic> the studs ;)
15:28 MTDiscord <luatic> or blox
15:30 kabou some guy in a village near me made a fortune patenting big concrete blocks with studs
15:30 kabou called them "legioblock"
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15:59 erle i hope kabou was joking about putting the stuff directly into mcl2 lol
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16:11 debiankaios what was with me?
16:16 erle debiankaios i asked about if stuff merged into mineclone2 gets upstreamed
16:16 erle debiankaios and i do not know what mod you maintain that is affected
16:16 erle but cora for some reason assumes that mods on contentdb will not be maintained if they are merged into mineclone2 or so
16:17 erle i don't really understand it
16:20 debiankaios ij
16:20 debiankaios *ok
16:21 erle debiankaios i think kabou confused you with NO11 maybe
16:21 debiankaios ok
16:22 debiankaios i am on mcl5 active but not more so many like in past
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16:22 debiankaios hi Alias
16:22 erle rubenwardy i looked at https://content.minetest.net/packages/Wuzzy/mineclone2/hub/ and i can not find https://content.minetest.net/packages/erlehmann/studs/ there, even though it is compatible. i think you do not use optional dependencies for the hub and i would like to know why.
16:23 erle rubenwardy in this case, my mod has only optional dependencies because it works with either stairs or ( mcl_stairs and mcl_wool )
16:24 rubenwardy that's currently disabld
16:24 erle oh, the entire functionality?
16:24 rubenwardy yes
16:24 erle ah
16:24 rubenwardy also, you could support all games and then add an opt dep on default for extra support, and then it would show as MTG only
16:24 rubenwardy which is incorrect
16:24 rubenwardy so only hard deps are considered
16:25 erle well, i was about to ask if you prefer if i make smaller mods that have only hard deps
16:25 erle which would lead to a lot of duplication
16:26 erle wait, if it would show up as mtg *only* then i guess i misunderstood this
16:26 erle i took “content for this game” as “content that declares itself to be (optionally) compatible with this game”
16:26 erle but it mans ”content hat is exclusively for this game” right?
16:27 debiankaios ok
16:27 debiankaios see you guyd
16:27 debiankaios *guys
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16:50 erle wsor, i hope you like this https://content.minetest.net/packages/erlehmann/bushy_leaves/
16:51 MTDiscord <Jonathon> dont know why i care
16:52 MTDiscord <Jonathon> and that mod breaks easily
16:52 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Tested and works with NodeCore... 👀
16:53 wsor also terrible license
16:53 paradust hm. no rain in minetest? It seems like it would be best done as a post processing step
16:53 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Hmm, now I guess I gotta see this...
16:53 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Haha, yeah, highly unfortunate license there.
16:53 erle also i just uploaded this https://content.minetest.net/packages/erlehmann/mcl_mushrooms_3d/
16:54 erle Warr1024 what is unfortunate about the license?
16:54 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Are these all nodeboxes or are you doing custom meshes?
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16:54 erle these are all nodeboxes and feel free to hate me
16:54 MTDiscord <Warr1024> erle: I prefer more free licenses.
16:54 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Nah, I ain't gonna hate ya for nodeboxes ... by all rights obvious nodebox mesh optimizations SHOULD really be part of the engine.
16:54 MTDiscord <Jonathon> erle choose the most malware like license there is 😛
16:55 erle well i once was on a server with some cool skyblock thing and they would not give out the source
16:55 MTDiscord <Warr1024> wsor: the most malware license that's still technically free.
16:55 erle since then i want to throw a spanner in the works
16:55 MTDiscord <Jonathon> https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/12262
16:55 paradust it should be possible for the original author to loosen a license, right?
16:56 MTDiscord <Jonathon> yes
16:56 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Nodeboxes are not automatically terrible.  There are some model geometries that are hard/impossible to actually improve with a custom mesh compared to a nodebox anyway, so the extra work of bringing the media system into play is probably not worth it.
16:56 erle well in this case i am doing something horrible though
16:56 MTDiscord <Jonathon> technically erle mods are such low effort, that you can easily rewrite them/take what they do from other mods
16:56 MTDiscord <Jonathon> for instance the leaves easily can be taken from ethereal
16:56 erle does ethereal have these kind of leaves?
16:57 MTDiscord <Jonathon> yes
16:57 erle because i have never seen exactly those leaves
16:57 erle all the leaves i have seen were some square sheets
16:57 MTDiscord <Warr1024> erle, I'd say the measure of horribleness for nodeboxes is mainly just how many fewer faces you'd have if you'd have been able to hand-optimize it.  If you've less than doubled the number of faces compared to the optimized version, then you're actually not doing all that bad.
16:57 MTDiscord <Jonathon> oh ok, its slightly different, but still
16:58 erle which a) looks still too blocky for my taste b) if it's plantlike it looks shit from above and below
16:58 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I don't generally bother optimizing a mesh unless either (1) it's going to be used quite commonly, or (2) I can get like an 80% reduction or something.
16:58 erle well these leaves can tank your framerate if you look at a jungle, but any fancy leaves will do that
16:59 MTDiscord <Warr1024> erle, I sort of liked hecks' leaves from his leaked screenshots; I think they were diagonal or something?  Might be neat to try as an option, to see if they're "fuller" and fill the cube's space more thoroughly, which might matter for e.g. boundary conditions.
16:59 MTDiscord <Jonathon> wherent hecks just the standard x?
16:59 erle mine are basically 3 plus shapes in each of X Y Z planes
16:59 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I thought hecks did the X, but in each of X/Y/Z
16:59 erle tuned so that it works with existing leaf textures without looking too square
17:00 erle the thing is, the X in each of X / Y / Z looks still bad. otherwise i would not have made that mod.
17:00 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Framerate-tanking can be acceptable for non-playing applications, anyway, like for fancy-pants screenshots or something :-)
17:01 erle if i am not mistaken it is 9 (?) faces per node instead of 6.
17:01 erle or, if they are properly merged, which i doubt, it would be 3 faces ig
17:01 MTDiscord <Warr1024> 9 quads ain't bad
17:01 erle i made it rounder in the initial try
17:01 erle but that was baaaaaad
17:01 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I mean, only 50% more than the existing fancy-leaves suggests it can be tuned acceptably by users who might have otherwise used the old fancy-leaves.
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17:02 erle well, i expect this to look good and play acceptable on every machine that uses old fancy leaves
17:02 erle i almost always play with opaque leaves
17:06 erle thanks for the approvals!
17:07 erle Warr1024 btw i quite like making these small decorative mods. do you have anything in nodecore that is decorative that you wish other minetest games also would use more?
17:08 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Haha, wow, that would be very out of character :-)
17:08 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Really the only place where I've felt "decorative" is the player model
17:10 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Also I find it much more productive to take a good idea from another game and add it to NodeCore than to try to take ideas from NodeCore and put them in other games.
17:10 MTDiscord <Warr1024> The only ideas from NodeCore that are even applicable to other games are mostly just the most trivial ones.
17:11 erle the player model reminds me of this game https://beliebtespielzeuge.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/61357.jpg
17:11 erle for mineclonia i have implemented “you can put a boat in a minecart to get additional passengers (boat can fit 2, minecart 1)”
17:11 erle do you have minecrats or boats?
17:12 erle it is implemented in quite a funny way, because i make the boat punch the cart when the player is rowing
17:13 MTDiscord <Warr1024> boats/carts would be very difficult to do in a nodecorian way
17:14 MTDiscord <Warr1024> closest I have is ziprunes, i.e. a non-cheaty fast-travel system, but it's more like a cross between rail lines and teleportation.
17:18 erle a cross?
17:18 erle you have to send the rune on a rail?
17:18 erle how do they work
17:18 MTDiscord <MisterE> Why?
17:19 erle why what
17:19 MTDiscord <MisterE> You build a boat from plank blocks, it tunrs into a model that looks like several nodes in the shape of a boat
17:19 MTDiscord <Warr1024> remember: the Discord "reply" feature doesn't bridge, IRC users only see the text of the message, not the context...
17:19 MTDiscord <MisterE> Then you must push in into the water
17:19 MTDiscord <MisterE> *it
17:19 MTDiscord <Warr1024> "turns into a model" is the problem.  You're talking about adding not-nodes to the game.
17:20 MTDiscord <MisterE> Is that ok?
17:20 erle haha maybe i should put mcl_meshnode on contentdb
17:20 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I mean it's not "illegal" or anything, and mods are allowed to do it, but it's not something I'm going to do in the base game, for sure, unless there's no way to avoid it.
17:20 erle it is a port of the old meshnode mod everyone hates
17:20 erle to mcl stuff
17:21 erle Warr1024 are there reasons to use mesh stairs instead of nodebox stairs? i have seen both in stairs mods.
17:21 MTDiscord <MisterE> Ok, you can make node boats and node carts. See wormball
17:21 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I thnk the only reason to use mesh stairs is the one "and a half" hidden quads that the old nodeboxes used
17:22 MTDiscord <MisterE> The player is attached to an invisible entity that moves with the node
17:22 MTDiscord <Warr1024> It seems petty, but on the other hand, people can build stuff with a LOT of stairs.
17:22 MTDiscord <MisterE> To smooth the transition
17:23 MTDiscord <Warr1024> MisterE: it could technically work, though (1) figuring how much jank you're willing to tolerate (there will definitely be some), and where, will be challenging, and (2) because of NodeCore's particular target difficulty, it'll be a bit tricky to balance.
17:24 MTDiscord <MisterE> You can use the settings from wormball, those have a good jank balenoe
17:24 MTDiscord <MisterE> *balence
17:24 MTDiscord <MisterE> There the player is attached to the worm head, which is a node
17:24 MTDiscord <Warr1024> In any event, at best, it seems like the kind of thing that would have to prove itself as an external mod first, and then I might consider upstreaming.  I've already actually got enough stuff on my "currently a mod but I want to upstream it" backlog as it is.
17:24 MTDiscord <MisterE> Reasonable
17:25 MTDiscord <MisterE> But just to say that it would not be hard if you wanted to do it
17:25 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Hmm, an actual train of multiple nodes following a head node sounds kinda interesting.  Rather than transporting players, I could imagine it might be interesting to use it to transport mainly cargo, and the rules for how the head node moves might be interesting.
17:26 MTDiscord <MisterE> This
17:26 MTDiscord <MisterE> Altho letting players ride it would be nice
17:26 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Player movement is not much of a challenge in NC; you can run like 2.5x as fast as MT Sam, hold your breath over twice as long, don't suffer meaningfully fall damage, and can run up full-height stairs, so getting from one place to another is more limited by your ability to keep track of where you are and plan navigation than it is actual movement.
17:27 MTDiscord <Warr1024> But transporting items, on the other hand, gets very tedious, somewhat by design, but having a late-game automatable item transportation system that works more efficiently over long distances than conveyor/catapult systems might be nice.
17:29 MTDiscord <MisterE> Well, like mesecon movestones, theres not much use for them as a transportation method, but they do move players, because it makes sense for them to, creates immersion in a way
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17:31 MTDiscord <Warr1024> immersion is a tricky thing in nodecore, because I want players to be immersed into the world but not player-characters.
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18:55 MinetestBot [git] paradust7 -> minetest/minetest: Make logging cost free when there is no output target (#12247) 0704ca0 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/0704ca055059088bdd53e15be672e6b5663b8f50 (2022-05-04T18:55:01Z)
18:55 MinetestBot [git] SmallJoker -> minetest/minetest: guiScalingFilter: Fix most memory leaks (#12256) 3ce5a68 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/3ce5a68cd12e45d7b618c49e205936fb140ecbfe (2022-05-04T18:55:13Z)
18:55 MinetestBot [git] appgurueu -> minetest/minetest: hud_get: Return precision field for waypoints (#12215) 89c8203 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/89c82035d88532bb63c9173e0c4edf54b7ea89f8 (2022-05-04T18:55:20Z)
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20:39 appguru Zughy: could you tag #11991 as bug? I believe it is very much confirmed. I have attached a video and runs has confirmed it as well.
20:39 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11991 -- Attachments sometimes flicker for a frame
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21:46 MinetestBot [git] x2048 -> minetest/minetest: Avoid rendering invisible faces of simple nodeboxes (#12262) cc56ebd https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/cc56ebd90db3858313a9e597a89c5db8fec3b617 (2022-05-04T21:44:55Z)
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21:56 MinetestBot [git] LoneWolfHT -> minetest/minetest: Fix Windows Visual Studio actions (#11176) 47cf257 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/47cf257c4098f087d4dc46ac28ddb39141222b0c (2022-05-04T21:55:02Z)
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