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IRC log for #minetest, 2022-02-04

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01:09 erlehmann appguru rubenwardy i have done what i wanted. thank you for your help. https://git.minetest.land/Mineclonia/Mineclonia/commit/39683ba8629aeb7b093816419c2ba58df9e89fe4
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01:09 erlehmann GreenXenith, how stupid is that commit?
01:09 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Why on earth are you asking me about this
01:10 erlehmann because you made some mod that paints stuff i think
01:10 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Ah, I see
01:12 erlehmann the thing is, whatever format you chose for an 128x128 pixel map, you'll have 4kb to 10kb of meta in your item (except if you want to save a single-colored plain, but few mapgens spit that out)
01:12 erlehmann and i wonder, if there is some useful trick.
01:14 erlehmann the thing is, from all the things i came up with so far, only color channel reduction did something
01:14 erlehmann obviously, because no one notices if your pixelated 128x128 map has 24 bit or 16 bit colors
01:14 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> You could just .. not store the map inside the item?
01:14 erlehmann that was how it was before. and then it breaks on map downloads.
01:15 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> What is mod storage?
01:15 erlehmann mod storage is a way to save information server-side, as far as i konw.
01:15 erlehmann know
01:15 erlehmann what does mod storage have to do with this?
01:16 rubenwardy saving the map inside the item is weird
01:16 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> It was a way of saying "use mod storage"
01:16 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Because mod storage is stored in the world
01:16 erlehmann oh, it is? o.0
01:16 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Yes
01:16 erlehmann uh, where in a map download is it?
01:17 erlehmann this is concerning, bc i thought mod storage was private
01:17 rubenwardy and many things break world downloads, map images are hardly vital
01:17 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> yourworld/mod_storage/modname
01:17 rubenwardy mod storage isn't available in local world saving
01:17 erlehmann rubenwardy map images are the one user-generated content that takes ages to make
01:17 rubenwardy I'm sure that would be the case with other stuff in mod storage too
01:18 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Wait, do you want to be able to save maps via local save?
01:18 erlehmann yes
01:18 rubenwardy the priority should be performance and stability, rather than supporting local save
01:18 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Yeah, supporting local save is ridiculous
01:18 erlehmann i think mcl mods actually do not use mod storage for much. in this case, the current map id. i should randomize it.
01:19 erlehmann GreenXenith local save is the only reason why i have a backup of clamity.
01:19 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> That shouldnt be your problem
01:19 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Server owners should always have backups
01:19 erlehmann in this case it was an admin clearing it out though
01:19 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Its not the job of a game to do the job of server hosts
01:20 MTDiscord <Jonathon> ^
01:20 erlehmann well, in fact, this is the only one of three things in mcl mods that uses mod storage
01:20 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Irrelevant
01:20 erlehmann and the other ones are already recalculated
01:20 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Use mod storage, full stop
01:20 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Forget local save support
01:20 erlehmann so it is the *only* item that breaks in world downloads
01:21 erlehmann and coincidentally, the one that is hardest to replace
01:21 erlehmann from all items (since it is so ridiculous to even set it up)
01:22 erlehmann i don't see why i should use mod storage anyway for bitmaps if they can be written to a file
01:23 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> well, thats fair too
01:23 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> fine, s/mod storage/world storage
01:23 erlehmann well, already doing that
01:24 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> then just get rid of the item storage part and call it a day
01:24 erlehmann the item storage part is this entire commit lol
01:24 erlehmann i wonder would there be another way to make it work?
01:24 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> then I guess the answer to your question is: The commit is pretty stupid
01:25 erlehmann oh yeah, that's what i wanted to know. so is it because the implementation is stupid or bc the goal is stupid?
01:25 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> The goal
01:25 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Although im curious as to why each map is taking up 4-10kb+?
01:26 erlehmann because it is an 128x128 bitmap
01:26 erlehmann make a screenshot, save it as png in gimp, it will be that size or larger
01:26 erlehmann for 128x128
01:26 erlehmann you can of course have smaller maps, if they are mostly a single color with an x in the middle or so
01:26 erlehmann but realistically, you'll have rolling hills and stuff
01:27 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Alright yeah that makes sense
01:28 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Do detached inventories get saved in the world?
01:29 erlehmann there is an upper bound (worst case) of about 32kb or so for saving 128×128 pixels verbatim as A1R5G5B5. you can go to 16kb for the worst case if you have no more than 256 nodes. but most of the landscapes are not deliberately engineered noise made to confuse zlib or rle compression.
01:29 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> If so, you could use a detached inventory to store map data as items. Weird hack but it could work
01:30 erlehmann i believe the fractal that hecks added to the RGBA PNG encoder are a pretty good worst case. the encoder is basic, but gimp, trying to be smart about it, manages to make the fractal *bigger* on my machine hahaha.
01:30 erlehmann like, more file size
01:31 erlehmann GreenXenith, in what ways does having a detached inventory benefit?
01:31 erlehmann does it remove lag?
01:31 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> It means you dont have to store the data in your players' inventories
01:31 erlehmann to be fair, a single shulker (portable chest) filled with enchanted items is way worse than some map that can not carry an entire chest
01:32 erlehmann so that is why 4kb to 10kb are not much
01:33 erlehmann i must admit i do not understand the detached inventory logic well enough to see how it would benefit anything. i have a map item in my inventory. should it have a matching ghost item in a detached inventory?
01:33 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> What is the issue you are having?
01:33 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Lag due to large item metadata in player inventories right?
01:34 erlehmann that issue is fully solved by the anon5 proxy i thought
01:34 erlehmann also i have only had it either when walking around with heavily enchanted gear where each armor piece has 21kb of meta (download mineclone 0.71 if you want to experience that) or …
01:35 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Alright look at it this way
01:35 erlehmann … when having lots of shulkers, as each shulker has a standard chest serialized to its meta. some tricksters even put shulkers in shulkers.
01:35 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Originally your map items referenced a map image in world storage, right? No issues?
01:35 erlehmann well, the world download issue
01:35 erlehmann it being the only item that is useless in a world dl
01:36 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Sure but otherwise fine
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01:36 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Instead, you use a detached inventory as your "world storage".
01:36 erlehmann i wouldn't say fine, the code was obviously not the best. i can still improve the texture compression a bit for example.
01:36 erlehmann okay
01:36 erlehmann and then?
01:36 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> That way the storage is included in a world dl, and you dont get perf issues with lots of data in player inventories
01:37 erlehmann that's quite an interesting suggestion, but would it leak all maps to all players?
01:37 erlehmann we have detached inventories right now. but they are only for villagers.
01:37 erlehmann and yes, currently all maps *are* sent to all players, i know that
01:37 erlehmann i have to update the media sending code for 5.5 anyway, i'll get to it
01:38 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> I dont even know if detached inventories are part of world downloads, they may not be
01:38 erlehmann GreenXenith do you have a showcase for this type of thing? it sounds super interesting.
01:38 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> If they are, then yeah it would be available to any player
01:38 erlehmann well, i know that they occur in the network
01:38 erlehmann like if someone has spawned a villager anywhere, i can see its trading inventory
01:38 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Why on earth would I have a showcase for that on hand
01:39 erlehmann because it's the kind of thing that sounds like it might work (or not)
01:39 rubenwardy one benefit of storing map images in the map item is that it will automatically GC
01:39 MTDiscord <Jonathon> hunger mod saves stuff in a dettached inventory
01:39 erlehmann rubenwardy yeah, that is actually important once i make the maps “explorer maps” (which i plan long-term)
01:39 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> oh? link please (less because im lazy, more because "hunger mod" is really ambiguous)
01:39 rubenwardy which hunger mod?
01:39 rubenwardy that sounds odd
01:39 erlehmann i want to update the stored bitmap with what the player sees
01:39 rubenwardy oh, that's not already the case?
01:40 erlehmann well, right now it samples the world, aligned to 128x128 squares
01:40 rubenwardy I assumed it was a Lua implementation of MC-like maps, which update as you move
01:40 erlehmann which obviously means you have a single map that is filled out right at the start
01:40 MTDiscord <Jonathon> visit wuzzys shitty git host
01:40 MTDiscord <Jonathon> if i recall correctly
01:41 erlehmann rubenwardy ideally it will be at some point. but right now it is more about map art, which is also why i do not want to break anything.
01:41 rubenwardy hbhunger? https://content.minetest.net/packages/Wuzzy/hbhunger/
01:41 erlehmann ppl use the maps to document where their bases are and show it to others
01:41 MTDiscord <Jonathon> https://repo.or.cz/minetest_hbhunger.git/blob/HEAD:/init.lua#l65
01:41 erlehmann and they make funny bitmaps and then snapshot them
01:41 rubenwardy ewww thisis such a hack
01:42 rubenwardy don't use the inventory to store numbers like this
01:42 erlehmann minetest is hacks upon hacks upon hacks anyway lol
01:42 rubenwardy I bet they were being lazy, and this was before player meta
01:42 erlehmann this takes the cake though
01:42 MTDiscord <Jonathon> shitty code on a shitty host
01:42 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Ive seen worse
01:42 rubenwardy yeah, repo.or.cz sucks
01:42 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Anyway, basically that but for map data
01:42 erlehmann hunger is an item
01:42 erlehmann lol
01:42 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> assuming local saves catch it
01:43 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> which I doubt for some reason
01:43 rubenwardy I don't think local saves do
01:43 erlehmann well rubenwardys thing with garbage collection is much more important than local saves
01:43 rubenwardy and you also end up sending it either to one player, which doesn't help, or to all players, which is bad
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01:43 erlehmann because once i start updating a map i can either write lots of stuff somewhere
01:43 erlehmann or i can just update the meta
01:43 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> just not supporting local save is still the ideal avenue here
01:44 erlehmann GreenXenith and how do i handle map updating then?
01:44 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> store your map in the world directory and reference it in the meta?
01:44 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> that kind of thing is simple ... I dont know why youd need to ask
01:44 erlehmann garbage collection. maps can be copied.
01:45 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> so reference the same map until updated
01:45 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> when it gets updated, make a copy
01:45 rubenwardy copy on write
01:45 rubenwardy the problem then is keeping track of references
01:45 rubenwardy which you can do using mod storage
01:45 rubenwardy but heh
01:45 erlehmann haha
01:46 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Doesnt seem like a problem to me
01:46 rubenwardy oh wait, you can't render item meta directly - so storing in meta would be extra wasteful
01:46 rubenwardy well
01:46 rubenwardy if it's a node meta formspec, you can use meta interpolation
01:46 rubenwardy with the png modifier
01:47 rubenwardy image[0,0;5,5;[png:${map_image}
01:47 rubenwardy but this is an item that isn't placed
01:47 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> well, it is
01:47 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> just as an entity
01:47 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> in an itemframe
01:47 erlehmann yes
01:48 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Anyway, ive contributed my two cents. World storage and ID references. I have nothing more to say 😄
01:48 erlehmann i think from 10000 feet the PNG modifier is on the same level of garbage as my patch, only that it is entirely useless for my purpose
01:49 erlehmann rubenwardy maybe being able to render item meta directly can be a thing? it would also simplify compasses
01:49 rubenwardy without the png modifier, you'll need to use dynamic media anyway
01:50 rubenwardy not sure how you'd even do that
01:50 rubenwardy oh right
01:50 erlehmann compasses have to be a bunch of items right now
01:50 erlehmann as clocks have to be
01:50 rubenwardy meta data setting inventories would support this with the PNG modifier
01:50 rubenwardy as you could use it as the texture name
01:50 rubenwardy #5686
01:50 erlehmann i'll look
01:51 rubenwardy MinetestBot!
01:51 MinetestBot rubenwardy!
01:51 erlehmann lol
01:51 rubenwardy oh is it ShadowBot
01:51 rubenwardy https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5686
01:51 erlehmann thanks for nothing, shadowbot!
01:51 erlehmann thanks rubenwardy
01:52 MTDiscord <Jonathon> use the lua hud/inventory mod
01:52 erlehmann link?
01:52 erlehmann i could use that for banners
01:52 erlehmann long ago (before mcl2 split into 3 projects) i improved mcl2 banners so that they had a crafting preview
01:53 erlehmann but in the inventory they still do not show their motive
01:53 MTDiscord <Jonathon> oh look, a old issue that was brought back from being paramatted
01:53 erlehmann i did this by means of having preview banner items
01:53 MTDiscord <Jonathon> thankfully
01:53 erlehmann ig paramatted means “paramat hates this feature and shoots it”
01:53 erlehmann right?
01:54 rubenwardy yes
01:54 rubenwardy the offshot is rubenwardied
01:54 MTDiscord <Jonathon> it means as kiblith would say the village idiot being a idiot
01:55 erlehmann i gathered kilbith says a lot of things about a lot of people and rarely those are niceties :P
01:55 MTDiscord <Jonathon> na ruben, thats roadmapped
01:55 MTDiscord <Jonathon> well, he is isnt wrong
01:55 MTDiscord <Jonathon> go play jordachs drinking game sometime
01:57 MTDiscord <Jonathon> anyways, thank you for saving that issue ruben
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01:58 MTDiscord <Jonathon> slowly it seems minetest is becoming more and more dynamic
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02:01 erlehmann rubenwardy GreenXenith thanks for your help and your opinions (even the ones that are “this is bad, don't do it”). given the fact that this is the only item breaking in mcl* world downloads and 4kb to 10kb of meta is not very much and making those things explorer maps instead of fully explored maps will reduce the size of the meta of a map a lot (until it is fully explored), i'll stay with this thing for now. for
02:01 erlehmann the future, maybe we can save the zlibbed pixels directly and see where it goes (not the PNG though, since minetest.encode_png() produces 32 bit color depth images and i already have a palette when generating the image).
02:02 erlehmann i will take a look at detached inventories. the thing from the hunger mod looked not too convincing though.
02:03 erlehmann by which i mean: “why, wuzzy, why?”
02:03 rubenwardy shit code
02:03 rubenwardy possible inherited from BlockMen
02:04 erlehmann almost all code i touch is shit code, including my own
02:04 erlehmann my coworkers probably think i am joking when i tell them “computers were a mistake” is a good first sentence when meeting a stranger in a bar
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02:05 erlehmann i guess when daddy turing gave us the theory of thinking rocks, he did not think if he should, only if he could.
02:06 erlehmann and here we are
02:06 rubenwardy that may be true, but is not a good first sentence when meeting someone in a bar
02:07 rubenwardy try "Hey"
02:07 MTDiscord <Warr1024> In my experience thinking rocks aren't nearly as bad as thinking meat.
02:08 MTDiscord <Warr1024> When people ask "do you think computers will ever achieve human intelligence" I'd say "yeah, but only if they give up on their dreams."
02:08 erlehmann harr harr
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02:10 MTDiscord <Warr1024> "Not a good first sentence" depends on "good for what purpose" anyway
02:11 rubenwardy if it's a ludites bar / tech woerks, then you might have some things in common
02:11 erlehmann no, hackers
02:11 erlehmann last time i remember saying the sentence offline i hung out with two ppl and one of them said yeah she agrees bc she used to work on chrome lol
02:14 erlehmann as john godfrey saxe famously said as early as 1869, “computer programs are like sausages – it is best not to see them being made.”
02:14 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Well, the sentence doesn't work quite as well over IRC :-)
02:14 erlehmann (the quote is most often attributed to otto von bismarck however)
02:15 MTDiscord <Warr1024> https://xkcd.com/2015/
02:15 erlehmann this reminds me of https://james-iry.blogspot.com/2009/05/brief-incomplete-and-mostly-wrong.html
02:16 erlehmann > 1972 - Dennis Ritchie invents a powerful gun that shoots both forward and  backward simultaneously. Not satisfied with the number of deaths and  permanent maimings from that invention he invents C and Unix.
02:18 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Haha this is all very "alcohol is mankind's worst invention; now pour me another" of you.
02:19 erlehmann you can only prove that i am a hypocrite using that argument, but not that what i say is wrong ;)
02:19 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a terrible idea that will go very wrong very badly.
02:20 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I'm not necessarily saying there weren't a mistake, I'm just saying that in the chain of mistakes that characterizes history, they don't particularly stand out.
02:22 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Regardless, even if I could prove that you were wrong about computers being a mistake, I couldn't prove that saying so wouldn't lead to the kind of conversation you're looking for.
02:26 erlehmann that's very meta of you
02:26 erlehmann i want to compliment you, but my mind is occupied with something else rn
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06:03 Insayne Hey
06:05 erlehmann what
06:06 Insayne How goes it?
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06:12 erlehmann müde
06:12 Insayne what is muede?
06:13 erlehmann equal goes it loose
06:13 erlehmann it's german for sleepy
06:15 Insayne ah, okay
06:15 Insayne have a good night
06:15 erlehmann it's 78
06:15 erlehmann it's 7:15 in the morning
06:15 Insayne oh
06:15 Insayne 1:15 am here
06:16 Insayne anyway, i am thinking of joining minetest ,  just want to know a little about the game.
06:17 Insayne i.e pros / cons
06:17 Insayne that sorta thing
06:24 lemonzest hey Insayne lol
06:25 Insayne hey lemonzest :D
06:25 lemonzest you could look at the website, and you know I have a server up :)
06:25 lemonzest i have a few mods running
06:26 Insayne ah, cool
06:27 lemonzest Its in creative mode, so ahve access to all the materials for building
06:28 lemonzest https://www.minetest.net\
06:28 Insayne how exactly does it work?
06:28 lemonzest oops, remove the \
06:28 lemonzest work? you mean the gameplay?
06:29 Insayne yeah, like, crafting and such
06:30 erlehmann Insayne pros: very easy to modify, lots of games and mods, runs fine on computers that have opengl 1.4 or above. cons: random small stuff breaks in minor releases and you basically can't trust game and mod authors that claim to always be compatible with the latest minetest engine. as a dev this may prevent you from actually having something that is finished (like on other platforms, where stuff is fire and forget). as a player
06:30 erlehmann this mostly means that your favourite game may not run in the newest engine version, despite the authors asserting otherwise. for example, if you want to play mineclone2, download minetest 5.4.1 instead of 5.5.0 which came out a few days ago.
06:30 lemonzest well from what I can tell, you can cut down trees for wood, then craft them into planks, and build with them to make for example a house, or dig for ore in caves, smelt it into metals in the furnice and make otehr things
06:31 erlehmann minetest_game, the default game, is supposed to always work with the newest engine. so no surprises there.
06:32 lemonzest I only started with 5.5.0
06:32 lemonzest heh, few days old
06:33 erlehmann also there is contentdb, which is a website and API that rubenwardy develops. it contains all the cool games and mods for minetest: https://content.minetest.net/
06:33 lemonzest each world is randomly generated with different biomes within, like deserts, snowy areas, forests
06:33 erlehmann you can download these games in an in-game menu
06:34 erlehmann Insayne the default game minetest_game has no mobs, so if you want something like that, go download some mobs
06:35 lemonzest I'm hosting a server for a few friends, Insayne being one of them, so we can have a place to cooperate, that and lag is not really an issue like a shooter would be, I sometimes play with a guy from Brazil and I'm in UK and we have no issues
06:35 erlehmann a game is basically a modpack
06:35 lemonzest yeah, i have animals :)
06:35 erlehmann check these out https://content.minetest.net/packages/Liil/people/
06:36 lemonzest I have things like, moreores, moreblocks, moretrees, animals, more crops, smooth slopes, and some others
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06:41 Insayne ah, i see, thanks
06:41 erlehmann lag is mostly an issue with some badly made games or mods
06:41 erlehmann for example, mineclone2 contains a weather mod that has like an insane amount of particles
06:42 erlehmann so if you do have lag, try deactivating mods
06:42 erlehmann playerplus was also a responsible for some lag last i checked
06:43 erlehmann lemonzest, Insayne if you want to make own content, read this book https://rubenwardy.com/minetest_modding_book/en/index.html
06:43 lemonzest yeah don't have that, seen it tho
06:43 erlehmann it is really simple to make a mod
06:44 lemonzest I'm just starting simple, get used to it
06:45 erlehmann two things that may not be immediately clear: servers have very different rules. if a player repeatedly kills other players on an anarchy server, no admin will help in-game. the person will not be banned.
06:45 erlehmann other servers have more order, like i have seen even ppl who want to vote and give you a plot to build.
06:45 lemonzest yeah, i tuned off pvp
06:46 erlehmann if you want to see what anarchy looks like, go to oysterity. if you want to see what order looks like, go to your-land.
06:46 erlehmann also, something i did not understand in the beginning: if a server rule says “no dating”, they do not mean you can't bring your girlfriend or boyfriend. they mean: no lewd stuff in public chats, bc it's family friendly or something.
06:47 lemonzest I only plan to play on my own server with a few frinds, thanks for the suggestion of those other servers tho, might check them out
06:47 erlehmann also there is one game that is online only
06:47 lemonzest the no dating thing might also mean no hitting on other players?
06:47 erlehmann i'd avoid it
06:48 lemonzest heh
06:48 erlehmann look ppl usually go to minetest to play with virtual legos not to flirt. surely it is different from server to server.
06:48 lemonzest which game is online only?
06:48 erlehmann i think oysterity had (or has?) “this is a dating server” in the description
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06:49 erlehmann but this is probably because the joke is that oysterity is everything catlandia is not
06:49 erlehmann and catlandia has “this is not a dating server”
06:49 erlehmann ;)
06:49 erlehmann so i suggest to behave
06:49 erlehmann the online game is called inside the box
06:49 erlehmann you can find it in the server list
06:49 erlehmann it is an escape room puzzle
06:49 erlehmann think portal without portal gun
06:50 erlehmann also there is a minigame server from MisterE
06:50 erlehmann you can play kwikbild there or how it is called, one person builds and others have to guess what it is
06:50 erlehmann or sumo, where you try to push others out of the arena
06:50 erlehmann there is also a capture the flag game where you can shoot and built
06:51 erlehmann and players have different classes (sniper, medic, melee)
06:51 erlehmann also there was a game jam at the end of last year and some cool games came out of it
06:51 erlehmann for example, alter, a puzzle with a unique teleport mechanic
06:53 erlehmann lemonzest if you play on your own server, i can suggest two things: 1. do not put it in the public server list 2. if you are really afraid of griefing, install a protection mod (protected areas or protection nodes) or do not give people the “interact” privilege by default, so they can not do anything in the world
06:53 lemonzest its not on the server list and its passworded
06:53 erlehmann wdym passworded
06:54 erlehmann password at first login?
06:54 lemonzest password to join yes
06:54 lemonzest I also enabled rollback
06:55 erlehmann rollback can be useful, but a) it is difficult to rollback your rollback b) i think it costs memory, no idea how much c) if someone griefs something and then grows a tree there, i think your rollback is useless
06:55 erlehmann not sure about that last thing
06:56 erlehmann if you are that afraid, better do the interact privilege thing
06:58 erlehmann unless you think your friends are assholes at times and destroy each others stuff
06:58 erlehmann you can also make backups ofc
07:01 erlehmann lemonzest https://content.minetest.net/packages/Fleckenstein/playerlist/
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07:03 erlehmann Insayne lemonzest i lied, sorry. obviously contentdb contains not *all* the cool games and mods. some are only found elsewhere.
07:04 erlehmann but it contains a lot.
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07:07 erlehmann appguru how hard would it be to figure out the average color of a PNG texture using the lua png tools we already have?
07:08 erlehmann (i.e. something in lua)
07:12 erlehmann i am asking bc there are 15 different PNG color types (from which 11 could reasonably be used in minetest) and have no idea if lua decoders can do them all
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07:48 MTDiscord <luatic> my png decoder can handle them all :D
07:50 Pexin no dating typically means, regardless of pronouns, basically treat everyone as genderless. because as mentioned, people are playing legos and nobody wants to be uncomfortable - not just whoever is being flirted at. also pedos
07:52 erlehmann “this is a gender-free server. all genders will be kicked & banned”
07:56 erlehmann luatic that's nice!
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08:44 Insayne that was definitely interesting :)
08:49 lemonzest Yay
08:49 erlehmann lemonzest have you installed playerlist or something similar?
08:50 erlehmann without it, players need to type /status
08:50 erlehmann which is not as easily accessible
08:51 lemonzest nah I've not
08:51 MTDiscord <luatic> Not a fan of playerlist as it requires overloading controls
08:51 erlehmann well another way is to have player names always visible
08:52 MTDiscord <luatic> Maybe key combinations could provide a solution, but IMO a simple "players" command would be enough
08:52 erlehmann if there is no pvp it is good idea
08:52 lemonzest I have coloured name tags
08:52 MTDiscord <luatic> erlehmann: Too much clutter on larger servers though
08:52 erlehmann true
08:54 lemonzest I don't really need a players command tho, I know who's on
08:54 erlehmann the question is, do the players
08:55 lemonzest we're friends so yeah
08:55 erlehmann ok cool
08:55 lemonzest I don't plan on being public
08:56 erlehmann lemonzest this can be nice if you want many more biomes https://content.minetest.net/packages/TenPlus1/ethereal/
08:56 lemonzest tried it, didn't like the biomes, they kept coming up purple with mushrooms everywhere
08:56 erlehmann ah lol
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17:38 MTDiscord <Bastrabun> Is there a way of knowing which value in minetest.conf can be changed from a running server and which cannot?
17:42 MTDiscord <Bastrabun> Example: You CAN change the max_users with the /set command, but you CANNOT change dedicated_server_step
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18:05 MTDiscord <luatic> Reading the sources ;)
18:06 MTDiscord <luatic> WDYM by "CAN change" though? Changing some values might trigger freezes or crashes, while others won't take effect until after a restart, and only some will be both "changable" and take effect immediately.
18:08 MTDiscord <luatic> Anyways, the code reads as follows: bool ClientInterface::isUserLimitReached() { return getClientIDs(CS_HelloSent).size() >= g_settings->getU16("max_users"); } so clearly max_users isn't changed and changes at runtime will don't require a restart to take effect
18:10 MTDiscord <luatic> dedicated_server_step on the other hand is read just once and then cached: static thread_local const float steplen = g_settings->getFloat("dedicated_server_step");
18:10 MTDiscord <luatic> To find such stuff out, just do grep -r <settingname> inside your MT src dir.
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18:26 Wuzzy 5.5.0 broke Hades Revisited mapgen 🙁
18:26 Wuzzy apparently, minetest.set_mapgen_params fails to set the mapgen params now
18:26 MTDiscord <Jonathon> hades broke every other game in 5.4
18:27 Wuzzy no, that was minetest
18:27 Wuzzy minetest.set_mapgen_setting("mgv6_spflags", "nomudflow,nosnowbiomes,notrees,nojungles")
18:27 MTDiscord <Jonathon> minetest bug, your games fault where it could have at least set it back on shut down
18:28 Wuzzy this function no longer works when starting the game for some reason
18:28 Wuzzy in my defense, it's in alpha stage, so breakage is allowed 😛
18:29 Wuzzy so this is weird. why does set_mapgen_setting no longer set my mapgen setting?
18:29 Wuzzy i tested with /set command after launch and mgv6_spflag is still at default :/
18:29 Wuzzy Am I misunderstanding how this function works?
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19:06 sfan5 did you try passing a third argument as true
19:07 rubenwardy problem is that overrides existing worlds
19:07 rubenwardy I think it was designed like this so that it only sets on new worlds, but the create world dialog setting them messes it up
19:08 sfan5 ah yeah that's true
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19:29 erlehmann Krock how would i detect useless hud flags with the profiler?
19:29 MinetestBot [git] appgurueu -> minetest/minetest: Fix types of get_mapgen_setting_noiseparams (#12025) 1ee3714 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/1ee37148a8072fe6350124cd51c812c3d3fb069a (2022-02-04T19:28:43Z)
19:29 erlehmann like, i have found both situations in which sending lots of hud flags is legit and ones where it is not
19:29 erlehmann so it can not just be the amounts of hud flags sent
19:31 MinetestBot [git] sfan5 -> minetest/minetest: Fix broken server startup if curl is disabled (#12046) afb061c https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/afb061c374ed6797f47b0806aba26845713d15ac (2022-02-04T19:29:28Z)
19:31 MinetestBot [git] Zughy -> minetest/minetest: Update copyright year in README (#12029) be05c90 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/be05c9022d8b6eff63f477bc8ca52efd7d631cb6 (2022-02-04T19:29:39Z)
19:32 Krock https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/src/client/client.cpp#L370-L388
19:32 Krock not directly per-mod but you can find excessive packet calls
19:33 Krock "grep -r" will then tell you the candidates. it ain't great, but at least there's something
19:34 Krock ah nvm. it seems you already know of this feature
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19:35 erlehmann Krock i do. the problem is that the sheer amount of hudchange packets does not matter. for example, mcl_maps uses hud to show a little dot on the handheld map which shows the player position. that's a hud update.
19:35 erlehmann so it's legit
19:35 erlehmann it may be even legit to update that every globalstep (or maybe not every globalstep, but often)
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19:53 fluxionary is there a way to get wireshark to re-assemble "split" packets and parse what's in them? (using the minetest plugin)
19:54 erlehmann fluxionary no idea, but check out https://github.com/anon55555/mt if you do network stuff
19:54 fluxionary will do
19:55 fluxionary feel like i've seen this repo before...
19:55 sfan5 fluxionary: there is almost surely a way but the dissector we have doesn't do it
19:55 fluxionary oh right, the "proxy"
19:55 erlehmann fluxionary, yes it is used for this https://github.com/OysterityAnarchy/mt-netopt-proxy
19:56 fluxionary sfan: yeah, i've seen other things do that in wireshark, but i've never written one myself
19:56 erlehmann makes minetest go brrrr
19:57 erlehmann i think i understand now how the proxy reduces inventory chatter. it sends “keep” instead of huge items https://github.com/OysterityAnarchy/mt-netopt-proxy/blob/master/proxy.go#LC150
19:58 erlehmann but why does minetest proper not do this?
20:07 fluxionary hm. getting it to run isn't hard (never used go before), but how do i get it to ... tell me anything interesting?
20:11 erlehmann add some printf debugging ig?
20:12 fluxionary fair suggestion
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20:34 mazes_83 is there a way to allow 5.4 client from 5.5 server, sorry first time this problem occurs for me. I already sercher a bit (not so long though)
20:36 erlehmann mazes_83 what exactly happens if you try it?
20:36 mazes_83 A mismatched client tried to connect from n.n.n.n proto_max=39
20:37 sfan5 did you enable strict_protocol_version_checking?
20:38 mazes_83 oh yes, that's it
20:45 mazes_83 sorry for the noise, thanks for the help
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21:01 lagash I'm trying to find a mod with a "mega block" where you place it and then, perhaps after clicking it again or something, it "grows" into some sort of structure. Any ideas?
21:05 lagash Like a house, portal, etc. And by grow I mean more instant than slow plant growth.
21:09 erlehmann lagash technically, mineclone5 mushrooms lol
21:09 erlehmann i think they are placed like that
21:10 MTDiscord <Bastrabun> Or any tree saplings for that matter?
21:10 erlehmann also mineclonia villages on the cora-production branch
21:10 erlehmann turns out village spawning *inside* the mapgen is super slow because it tries to repair mapgen griefing
21:10 erlehmann thus overwriting each mapblock up to 8 times
21:10 erlehmann but once you place only a village structure block which unpacks itself at the earliest possible moment, bazingo!
21:11 MTDiscord <j45> I might be able to help if you need help with the mt go pkg, fluxionary
21:11 erlehmann if the mapgen griefs it, no village for you
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21:11 Guest30 Hi
21:11 erlehmann j45 is your cursed mt go project published already?
21:11 fluxionary j45: i got it built, it just didn't do much out of the box
21:11 MTDiscord <j45> Yes, it is more of an api
21:11 erlehmann j45 has built a cursed thing
21:12 MTDiscord <j45> How is it cursed?
21:12 erlehmann never intended ^^
21:12 erlehmann well i like it
21:12 erlehmann but is it published?
21:12 Guest30 guys, if i build minetest from source i can download minetest-game in game menu?
21:12 sfan5 yes
21:12 Guest30 Okay
21:13 Guest30 Thanks
21:13 MTDiscord <j45> Erleh: which project? Chat logger is but the other project i have temporarily paused and is in a private repo
21:13 erlehmann yes give mt chat
21:14 erlehmann and WIP for the other project :>
21:14 erlehmann release early, release often etc. pp.
21:14 MTDiscord <j45> mt_chat is the one in the private repo and i dont want to release it yet
21:14 MTDiscord <j45> The chat logger is public
21:15 guest3456 lol I just browsed the minetest_docs repo a bit
21:15 guest3456 minetest devs seem to disagree sometimes
21:15 guest3456 https://github.com/minetest/minetest_docs/blob/master/HOWTO.adoc
21:16 guest3456 quote
21:16 guest3456 Technical Jargon Saturation
21:16 guest3456 Avoid too much technical detail for things that are unimportant, implied, or explained soon after.
21:16 guest3456 BAD:
21:16 guest3456 The ThisObject metatable provides an OOP-like utility for processing the index mathematics of a ThatObject.
21:16 guest3456 This has way too much implementation detail and unnecessary technical terms.
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21:16 guest3456 and then
21:16 guest3456 https://github.com/minetest/minetest_docs/blob/master/doc/VoxelArea.adoc
21:16 guest3456 VoxelArea
21:16 guest3456 The VoxelArea metatable provides an OOP-like utility for dealing with LuaVoxelManip (specifically, for doing the index math).
21:21 erlehmann how to create nan instead of math.sqrt(-1)
21:21 erlehmann i mean it creates -nan here
21:21 erlehmann but i really just need a quick nan
21:22 MTDiscord <j45> I think 1/0 got a funky number but i cant remember what
21:22 Hawk777 0 ÷ 0 is the usual NaN AFAIK
21:22 erlehmann it's inf
21:22 Hawk777 1 ÷ 0 is infinity
21:22 erlehmann oh 0/0 is a shorter -nan thx
21:22 erlehmann lol
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22:15 erlehmann i think minetest does not handle running out of memory well. it seems random values in lua become nil?
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22:51 MTDiscord <luatic> guest3456: I wrote the VoxelArea docs and @GreenXenith basically wrote the guideline in response to that as he saw lots of room for improvement. Only has that improvement not happened yet.
22:52 MTDiscord <luatic> erlehmann: random values become nil? that shouldn't happen
22:52 MTDiscord <luatic> and yes 0/0 is the usual, I prefer modlib.number.negative_nan for readability though lol
22:52 Guest345654 luatic: I deduced that from the git blame
22:52 Guest345654 it's a funny style of criticism tho
22:52 MTDiscord <luatic> To be clear, I do agree with GX that it could be more user-friendly
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22:55 erlehmann > Avoid too much technical detail for things that are […] implied
22:55 erlehmann welllllllllll
22:55 erlehmann usually things that are implied are what trips ppl up
22:56 MTDiscord <luatic> But Guest345654, why don't you head over to #minetest-docs for chatter about the docs repo :)
22:56 Guest345654 heh, I was only cursorily browsing
22:57 Guest345654 have to peruse lots of other docs before I can add seriously to minetest_docs
22:59 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> erlehmann: Obviously obvious implications implied
22:59 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Sorry, couldnt pass up the opportunity for that
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23:00 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Real answer: The section refers to heavy technical detail, where too much is more confusing than just implying it
23:01 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Feel free to suggest better wording, PRs welcome
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23:30 erlehmann has anyone made a mod with map markers? i have added map markers to maps in item frames. they were working in item frames from the beginning, but now they display the approx frame location.
23:31 erlehmann it looks like this https://mister-muffin.de/p/RBUU.jpg or this https://mister-muffin.de/p/k1Vr.jpg
23:38 MTDiscord <luatic> so that's what you wanted to get avg texture colors for ;)
23:38 erlehmann luatic currently there exists a python script by fleckenstein, which samples all textures and writes the results to json
23:39 erlehmann but the problem is ofc that it does not know about other mods
23:39 MTDiscord <luatic> bruh moment, using modlib I can do it in like 10 lines of code
23:39 erlehmann but at which COST
23:39 erlehmann i mean runtime
23:39 erlehmann if you give me the code, i benchmark it
23:40 MTDiscord <luatic> The cost of reading and processing the textures once?
23:40 erlehmann the cost of reading and processing the textures every time at server startup
23:40 erlehmann because mods might have changed, textures might have changed
23:40 erlehmann etc. pp.
23:40 MTDiscord <luatic> well, you could keep a cache somewhere in the world folder
23:40 erlehmann sounds like more than 10 lines suddenly, you know ;)
23:40 erlehmann so the thing is, i'd be happy to have it work perfectly
23:41 erlehmann but i have limited energyß
23:41 erlehmann so right now i continue using the json file
23:43 erlehmann luatic do you know about any other map mods btw? mcl_maps is a bit older, but the only one besides cartographer i know

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