| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 00:02 |
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| 01:09 |
erlehmann |
appguru rubenwardy i have done what i wanted. thank you for your help. https://git.minetest.land/Mineclonia/Mineclonia/commit/39683ba8629aeb7b093816419c2ba58df9e89fe4 |
| 01:09 |
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| 01:09 |
erlehmann |
GreenXenith, how stupid is that commit? |
| 01:09 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> Why on earth are you asking me about this |
| 01:10 |
erlehmann |
because you made some mod that paints stuff i think |
| 01:10 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> Ah, I see |
| 01:12 |
erlehmann |
the thing is, whatever format you chose for an 128x128 pixel map, you'll have 4kb to 10kb of meta in your item (except if you want to save a single-colored plain, but few mapgens spit that out) |
| 01:12 |
erlehmann |
and i wonder, if there is some useful trick. |
| 01:14 |
erlehmann |
the thing is, from all the things i came up with so far, only color channel reduction did something |
| 01:14 |
erlehmann |
obviously, because no one notices if your pixelated 128x128 map has 24 bit or 16 bit colors |
| 01:14 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> You could just .. not store the map inside the item? |
| 01:14 |
erlehmann |
that was how it was before. and then it breaks on map downloads. |
| 01:15 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> What is mod storage? |
| 01:15 |
erlehmann |
mod storage is a way to save information server-side, as far as i konw. |
| 01:15 |
erlehmann |
know |
| 01:15 |
erlehmann |
what does mod storage have to do with this? |
| 01:16 |
rubenwardy |
saving the map inside the item is weird |
| 01:16 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> It was a way of saying "use mod storage" |
| 01:16 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> Because mod storage is stored in the world |
| 01:16 |
erlehmann |
oh, it is? o.0 |
| 01:16 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> Yes |
| 01:16 |
erlehmann |
uh, where in a map download is it? |
| 01:17 |
erlehmann |
this is concerning, bc i thought mod storage was private |
| 01:17 |
rubenwardy |
and many things break world downloads, map images are hardly vital |
| 01:17 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> yourworld/mod_storage/modname |
| 01:17 |
rubenwardy |
mod storage isn't available in local world saving |
| 01:17 |
erlehmann |
rubenwardy map images are the one user-generated content that takes ages to make |
| 01:17 |
rubenwardy |
I'm sure that would be the case with other stuff in mod storage too |
| 01:18 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> Wait, do you want to be able to save maps via local save? |
| 01:18 |
erlehmann |
yes |
| 01:18 |
rubenwardy |
the priority should be performance and stability, rather than supporting local save |
| 01:18 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> Yeah, supporting local save is ridiculous |
| 01:18 |
erlehmann |
i think mcl mods actually do not use mod storage for much. in this case, the current map id. i should randomize it. |
| 01:19 |
erlehmann |
GreenXenith local save is the only reason why i have a backup of clamity. |
| 01:19 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> That shouldnt be your problem |
| 01:19 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> Server owners should always have backups |
| 01:19 |
erlehmann |
in this case it was an admin clearing it out though |
| 01:19 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> Its not the job of a game to do the job of server hosts |
| 01:20 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> ^ |
| 01:20 |
erlehmann |
well, in fact, this is the only one of three things in mcl mods that uses mod storage |
| 01:20 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> Irrelevant |
| 01:20 |
erlehmann |
and the other ones are already recalculated |
| 01:20 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> Use mod storage, full stop |
| 01:20 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> Forget local save support |
| 01:20 |
erlehmann |
so it is the *only* item that breaks in world downloads |
| 01:21 |
erlehmann |
and coincidentally, the one that is hardest to replace |
| 01:21 |
erlehmann |
from all items (since it is so ridiculous to even set it up) |
| 01:22 |
erlehmann |
i don't see why i should use mod storage anyway for bitmaps if they can be written to a file |
| 01:23 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> well, thats fair too |
| 01:23 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> fine, s/mod storage/world storage |
| 01:23 |
erlehmann |
well, already doing that |
| 01:24 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> then just get rid of the item storage part and call it a day |
| 01:24 |
erlehmann |
the item storage part is this entire commit lol |
| 01:24 |
erlehmann |
i wonder would there be another way to make it work? |
| 01:24 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> then I guess the answer to your question is: The commit is pretty stupid |
| 01:25 |
erlehmann |
oh yeah, that's what i wanted to know. so is it because the implementation is stupid or bc the goal is stupid? |
| 01:25 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> The goal |
| 01:25 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> Although im curious as to why each map is taking up 4-10kb+? |
| 01:26 |
erlehmann |
because it is an 128x128 bitmap |
| 01:26 |
erlehmann |
make a screenshot, save it as png in gimp, it will be that size or larger |
| 01:26 |
erlehmann |
for 128x128 |
| 01:26 |
erlehmann |
you can of course have smaller maps, if they are mostly a single color with an x in the middle or so |
| 01:26 |
erlehmann |
but realistically, you'll have rolling hills and stuff |
| 01:27 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> Alright yeah that makes sense |
| 01:28 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> Do detached inventories get saved in the world? |
| 01:29 |
erlehmann |
there is an upper bound (worst case) of about 32kb or so for saving 128×128 pixels verbatim as A1R5G5B5. you can go to 16kb for the worst case if you have no more than 256 nodes. but most of the landscapes are not deliberately engineered noise made to confuse zlib or rle compression. |
| 01:29 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> If so, you could use a detached inventory to store map data as items. Weird hack but it could work |
| 01:30 |
erlehmann |
i believe the fractal that hecks added to the RGBA PNG encoder are a pretty good worst case. the encoder is basic, but gimp, trying to be smart about it, manages to make the fractal *bigger* on my machine hahaha. |
| 01:30 |
erlehmann |
like, more file size |
| 01:31 |
erlehmann |
GreenXenith, in what ways does having a detached inventory benefit? |
| 01:31 |
erlehmann |
does it remove lag? |
| 01:31 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> It means you dont have to store the data in your players' inventories |
| 01:31 |
erlehmann |
to be fair, a single shulker (portable chest) filled with enchanted items is way worse than some map that can not carry an entire chest |
| 01:32 |
erlehmann |
so that is why 4kb to 10kb are not much |
| 01:33 |
erlehmann |
i must admit i do not understand the detached inventory logic well enough to see how it would benefit anything. i have a map item in my inventory. should it have a matching ghost item in a detached inventory? |
| 01:33 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> What is the issue you are having? |
| 01:33 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> Lag due to large item metadata in player inventories right? |
| 01:34 |
erlehmann |
that issue is fully solved by the anon5 proxy i thought |
| 01:34 |
erlehmann |
also i have only had it either when walking around with heavily enchanted gear where each armor piece has 21kb of meta (download mineclone 0.71 if you want to experience that) or … |
| 01:35 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> Alright look at it this way |
| 01:35 |
erlehmann |
… when having lots of shulkers, as each shulker has a standard chest serialized to its meta. some tricksters even put shulkers in shulkers. |
| 01:35 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> Originally your map items referenced a map image in world storage, right? No issues? |
| 01:35 |
erlehmann |
well, the world download issue |
| 01:35 |
erlehmann |
it being the only item that is useless in a world dl |
| 01:36 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> Sure but otherwise fine |
| 01:36 |
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| 01:36 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> Instead, you use a detached inventory as your "world storage". |
| 01:36 |
erlehmann |
i wouldn't say fine, the code was obviously not the best. i can still improve the texture compression a bit for example. |
| 01:36 |
erlehmann |
okay |
| 01:36 |
erlehmann |
and then? |
| 01:36 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> That way the storage is included in a world dl, and you dont get perf issues with lots of data in player inventories |
| 01:37 |
erlehmann |
that's quite an interesting suggestion, but would it leak all maps to all players? |
| 01:37 |
erlehmann |
we have detached inventories right now. but they are only for villagers. |
| 01:37 |
erlehmann |
and yes, currently all maps *are* sent to all players, i know that |
| 01:37 |
erlehmann |
i have to update the media sending code for 5.5 anyway, i'll get to it |
| 01:38 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> I dont even know if detached inventories are part of world downloads, they may not be |
| 01:38 |
erlehmann |
GreenXenith do you have a showcase for this type of thing? it sounds super interesting. |
| 01:38 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> If they are, then yeah it would be available to any player |
| 01:38 |
erlehmann |
well, i know that they occur in the network |
| 01:38 |
erlehmann |
like if someone has spawned a villager anywhere, i can see its trading inventory |
| 01:38 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> Why on earth would I have a showcase for that on hand |
| 01:39 |
erlehmann |
because it's the kind of thing that sounds like it might work (or not) |
| 01:39 |
rubenwardy |
one benefit of storing map images in the map item is that it will automatically GC |
| 01:39 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> hunger mod saves stuff in a dettached inventory |
| 01:39 |
erlehmann |
rubenwardy yeah, that is actually important once i make the maps “explorer maps” (which i plan long-term) |
| 01:39 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> oh? link please (less because im lazy, more because "hunger mod" is really ambiguous) |
| 01:39 |
rubenwardy |
which hunger mod? |
| 01:39 |
rubenwardy |
that sounds odd |
| 01:39 |
erlehmann |
i want to update the stored bitmap with what the player sees |
| 01:39 |
rubenwardy |
oh, that's not already the case? |
| 01:40 |
erlehmann |
well, right now it samples the world, aligned to 128x128 squares |
| 01:40 |
rubenwardy |
I assumed it was a Lua implementation of MC-like maps, which update as you move |
| 01:40 |
erlehmann |
which obviously means you have a single map that is filled out right at the start |
| 01:40 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> visit wuzzys shitty git host |
| 01:40 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> if i recall correctly |
| 01:41 |
erlehmann |
rubenwardy ideally it will be at some point. but right now it is more about map art, which is also why i do not want to break anything. |
| 01:41 |
rubenwardy |
hbhunger? https://content.minetest.net/packages/Wuzzy/hbhunger/ |
| 01:41 |
erlehmann |
ppl use the maps to document where their bases are and show it to others |
| 01:41 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> https://repo.or.cz/minetest_hbhunger.git/blob/HEAD:/init.lua#l65 |
| 01:41 |
erlehmann |
and they make funny bitmaps and then snapshot them |
| 01:41 |
rubenwardy |
ewww thisis such a hack |
| 01:42 |
rubenwardy |
don't use the inventory to store numbers like this |
| 01:42 |
erlehmann |
minetest is hacks upon hacks upon hacks anyway lol |
| 01:42 |
rubenwardy |
I bet they were being lazy, and this was before player meta |
| 01:42 |
erlehmann |
this takes the cake though |
| 01:42 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> shitty code on a shitty host |
| 01:42 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> Ive seen worse |
| 01:42 |
rubenwardy |
yeah, repo.or.cz sucks |
| 01:42 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> Anyway, basically that but for map data |
| 01:42 |
erlehmann |
hunger is an item |
| 01:42 |
erlehmann |
lol |
| 01:42 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> assuming local saves catch it |
| 01:43 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> which I doubt for some reason |
| 01:43 |
rubenwardy |
I don't think local saves do |
| 01:43 |
erlehmann |
well rubenwardys thing with garbage collection is much more important than local saves |
| 01:43 |
rubenwardy |
and you also end up sending it either to one player, which doesn't help, or to all players, which is bad |
| 01:43 |
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| 01:43 |
erlehmann |
because once i start updating a map i can either write lots of stuff somewhere |
| 01:43 |
erlehmann |
or i can just update the meta |
| 01:43 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> just not supporting local save is still the ideal avenue here |
| 01:44 |
erlehmann |
GreenXenith and how do i handle map updating then? |
| 01:44 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> store your map in the world directory and reference it in the meta? |
| 01:44 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> that kind of thing is simple ... I dont know why youd need to ask |
| 01:44 |
erlehmann |
garbage collection. maps can be copied. |
| 01:45 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> so reference the same map until updated |
| 01:45 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> when it gets updated, make a copy |
| 01:45 |
rubenwardy |
copy on write |
| 01:45 |
rubenwardy |
the problem then is keeping track of references |
| 01:45 |
rubenwardy |
which you can do using mod storage |
| 01:45 |
rubenwardy |
but heh |
| 01:45 |
erlehmann |
haha |
| 01:46 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> Doesnt seem like a problem to me |
| 01:46 |
rubenwardy |
oh wait, you can't render item meta directly - so storing in meta would be extra wasteful |
| 01:46 |
rubenwardy |
well |
| 01:46 |
rubenwardy |
if it's a node meta formspec, you can use meta interpolation |
| 01:46 |
rubenwardy |
with the png modifier |
| 01:47 |
rubenwardy |
image[0,0;5,5;[png:${map_image} |
| 01:47 |
rubenwardy |
but this is an item that isn't placed |
| 01:47 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> well, it is |
| 01:47 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> just as an entity |
| 01:47 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> in an itemframe |
| 01:47 |
erlehmann |
yes |
| 01:48 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> Anyway, ive contributed my two cents. World storage and ID references. I have nothing more to say ? |
| 01:48 |
erlehmann |
i think from 10000 feet the PNG modifier is on the same level of garbage as my patch, only that it is entirely useless for my purpose |
| 01:49 |
erlehmann |
rubenwardy maybe being able to render item meta directly can be a thing? it would also simplify compasses |
| 01:49 |
rubenwardy |
without the png modifier, you'll need to use dynamic media anyway |
| 01:50 |
rubenwardy |
not sure how you'd even do that |
| 01:50 |
rubenwardy |
oh right |
| 01:50 |
erlehmann |
compasses have to be a bunch of items right now |
| 01:50 |
erlehmann |
as clocks have to be |
| 01:50 |
rubenwardy |
meta data setting inventories would support this with the PNG modifier |
| 01:50 |
rubenwardy |
as you could use it as the texture name |
| 01:50 |
rubenwardy |
#5686 |
| 01:50 |
erlehmann |
i'll look |
| 01:51 |
rubenwardy |
MinetestBot! |
| 01:51 |
MinetestBot |
rubenwardy! |
| 01:51 |
erlehmann |
lol |
| 01:51 |
rubenwardy |
oh is it ShadowBot |
| 01:51 |
rubenwardy |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5686 |
| 01:51 |
erlehmann |
thanks for nothing, shadowbot! |
| 01:51 |
erlehmann |
thanks rubenwardy |
| 01:52 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> use the lua hud/inventory mod |
| 01:52 |
erlehmann |
link? |
| 01:52 |
erlehmann |
i could use that for banners |
| 01:52 |
erlehmann |
long ago (before mcl2 split into 3 projects) i improved mcl2 banners so that they had a crafting preview |
| 01:53 |
erlehmann |
but in the inventory they still do not show their motive |
| 01:53 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> oh look, a old issue that was brought back from being paramatted |
| 01:53 |
erlehmann |
i did this by means of having preview banner items |
| 01:53 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> thankfully |
| 01:53 |
erlehmann |
ig paramatted means “paramat hates this feature and shoots it” |
| 01:53 |
erlehmann |
right? |
| 01:54 |
rubenwardy |
yes |
| 01:54 |
rubenwardy |
the offshot is rubenwardied |
| 01:54 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> it means as kiblith would say the village idiot being a idiot |
| 01:55 |
erlehmann |
i gathered kilbith says a lot of things about a lot of people and rarely those are niceties :P |
| 01:55 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> na ruben, thats roadmapped |
| 01:55 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> well, he is isnt wrong |
| 01:55 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> go play jordachs drinking game sometime |
| 01:57 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> anyways, thank you for saving that issue ruben |
| 01:58 |
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| 01:58 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> slowly it seems minetest is becoming more and more dynamic |
| 01:59 |
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| 02:01 |
erlehmann |
rubenwardy GreenXenith thanks for your help and your opinions (even the ones that are “this is bad, don't do it”). given the fact that this is the only item breaking in mcl* world downloads and 4kb to 10kb of meta is not very much and making those things explorer maps instead of fully explored maps will reduce the size of the meta of a map a lot (until it is fully explored), i'll stay with this thing for now. for |
| 02:01 |
erlehmann |
the future, maybe we can save the zlibbed pixels directly and see where it goes (not the PNG though, since minetest.encode_png() produces 32 bit color depth images and i already have a palette when generating the image). |
| 02:02 |
erlehmann |
i will take a look at detached inventories. the thing from the hunger mod looked not too convincing though. |
| 02:03 |
erlehmann |
by which i mean: “why, wuzzy, why?” |
| 02:03 |
rubenwardy |
shit code |
| 02:03 |
rubenwardy |
possible inherited from BlockMen |
| 02:04 |
erlehmann |
almost all code i touch is shit code, including my own |
| 02:04 |
erlehmann |
my coworkers probably think i am joking when i tell them “computers were a mistake” is a good first sentence when meeting a stranger in a bar |
| 02:05 |
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| 02:05 |
erlehmann |
i guess when daddy turing gave us the theory of thinking rocks, he did not think if he should, only if he could. |
| 02:06 |
erlehmann |
and here we are |
| 02:06 |
rubenwardy |
that may be true, but is not a good first sentence when meeting someone in a bar |
| 02:07 |
rubenwardy |
try "Hey" |
| 02:07 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> In my experience thinking rocks aren't nearly as bad as thinking meat. |
| 02:08 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> When people ask "do you think computers will ever achieve human intelligence" I'd say "yeah, but only if they give up on their dreams." |
| 02:08 |
erlehmann |
harr harr |
| 02:10 |
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MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> "Not a good first sentence" depends on "good for what purpose" anyway |
| 02:11 |
rubenwardy |
if it's a ludites bar / tech woerks, then you might have some things in common |
| 02:11 |
erlehmann |
no, hackers |
| 02:11 |
erlehmann |
last time i remember saying the sentence offline i hung out with two ppl and one of them said yeah she agrees bc she used to work on chrome lol |
| 02:14 |
erlehmann |
as john godfrey saxe famously said as early as 1869, “computer programs are like sausages – it is best not to see them being made.” |
| 02:14 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Well, the sentence doesn't work quite as well over IRC :-) |
| 02:14 |
erlehmann |
(the quote is most often attributed to otto von bismarck however) |
| 02:15 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> https://xkcd.com/2015/ |
| 02:15 |
erlehmann |
this reminds me of https://james-iry.blogspot.com/2009/05/brief-incomplete-and-mostly-wrong.html |
| 02:16 |
erlehmann |
> 1972 - Dennis Ritchie invents a powerful gun that shoots both forward and backward simultaneously. Not satisfied with the number of deaths and permanent maimings from that invention he invents C and Unix. |
| 02:18 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Haha this is all very "alcohol is mankind's worst invention; now pour me another" of you. |
| 02:19 |
erlehmann |
you can only prove that i am a hypocrite using that argument, but not that what i say is wrong ;) |
| 02:19 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a terrible idea that will go very wrong very badly. |
| 02:20 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I'm not necessarily saying there weren't a mistake, I'm just saying that in the chain of mistakes that characterizes history, they don't particularly stand out. |
| 02:22 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Regardless, even if I could prove that you were wrong about computers being a mistake, I couldn't prove that saying so wouldn't lead to the kind of conversation you're looking for. |
| 02:26 |
erlehmann |
that's very meta of you |
| 02:26 |
erlehmann |
i want to compliment you, but my mind is occupied with something else rn |
| 02:29 |
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| 06:03 |
Insayne |
Hey |
| 06:05 |
erlehmann |
what |
| 06:06 |
Insayne |
How goes it? |
| 06:06 |
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| 06:12 |
erlehmann |
müde |
| 06:12 |
Insayne |
what is muede? |
| 06:13 |
erlehmann |
equal goes it loose |
| 06:13 |
erlehmann |
it's german for sleepy |
| 06:15 |
Insayne |
ah, okay |
| 06:15 |
Insayne |
have a good night |
| 06:15 |
erlehmann |
it's 78 |
| 06:15 |
erlehmann |
it's 7:15 in the morning |
| 06:15 |
Insayne |
oh |
| 06:15 |
Insayne |
1:15 am here |
| 06:16 |
Insayne |
anyway, i am thinking of joining minetest , just want to know a little about the game. |
| 06:17 |
Insayne |
i.e pros / cons |
| 06:17 |
Insayne |
that sorta thing |
| 06:24 |
lemonzest |
hey Insayne lol |
| 06:25 |
Insayne |
hey lemonzest :D |
| 06:25 |
lemonzest |
you could look at the website, and you know I have a server up :) |
| 06:25 |
lemonzest |
i have a few mods running |
| 06:26 |
Insayne |
ah, cool |
| 06:27 |
lemonzest |
Its in creative mode, so ahve access to all the materials for building |
| 06:28 |
lemonzest |
https://www.minetest.net\ |
| 06:28 |
Insayne |
how exactly does it work? |
| 06:28 |
lemonzest |
oops, remove the \ |
| 06:28 |
lemonzest |
work? you mean the gameplay? |
| 06:29 |
Insayne |
yeah, like, crafting and such |
| 06:30 |
erlehmann |
Insayne pros: very easy to modify, lots of games and mods, runs fine on computers that have opengl 1.4 or above. cons: random small stuff breaks in minor releases and you basically can't trust game and mod authors that claim to always be compatible with the latest minetest engine. as a dev this may prevent you from actually having something that is finished (like on other platforms, where stuff is fire and forget). as a player |
| 06:30 |
erlehmann |
this mostly means that your favourite game may not run in the newest engine version, despite the authors asserting otherwise. for example, if you want to play mineclone2, download minetest 5.4.1 instead of 5.5.0 which came out a few days ago. |
| 06:30 |
lemonzest |
well from what I can tell, you can cut down trees for wood, then craft them into planks, and build with them to make for example a house, or dig for ore in caves, smelt it into metals in the furnice and make otehr things |
| 06:31 |
erlehmann |
minetest_game, the default game, is supposed to always work with the newest engine. so no surprises there. |
| 06:32 |
lemonzest |
I only started with 5.5.0 |
| 06:32 |
lemonzest |
heh, few days old |
| 06:33 |
erlehmann |
also there is contentdb, which is a website and API that rubenwardy develops. it contains all the cool games and mods for minetest: https://content.minetest.net/ |
| 06:33 |
lemonzest |
each world is randomly generated with different biomes within, like deserts, snowy areas, forests |
| 06:33 |
erlehmann |
you can download these games in an in-game menu |
| 06:34 |
erlehmann |
Insayne the default game minetest_game has no mobs, so if you want something like that, go download some mobs |
| 06:35 |
lemonzest |
I'm hosting a server for a few friends, Insayne being one of them, so we can have a place to cooperate, that and lag is not really an issue like a shooter would be, I sometimes play with a guy from Brazil and I'm in UK and we have no issues |
| 06:35 |
erlehmann |
a game is basically a modpack |
| 06:35 |
lemonzest |
yeah, i have animals :) |
| 06:35 |
erlehmann |
check these out https://content.minetest.net/packages/Liil/people/ |
| 06:36 |
lemonzest |
I have things like, moreores, moreblocks, moretrees, animals, more crops, smooth slopes, and some others |
| 06:39 |
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| 06:41 |
Insayne |
ah, i see, thanks |
| 06:41 |
erlehmann |
lag is mostly an issue with some badly made games or mods |
| 06:41 |
erlehmann |
for example, mineclone2 contains a weather mod that has like an insane amount of particles |
| 06:42 |
erlehmann |
so if you do have lag, try deactivating mods |
| 06:42 |
erlehmann |
playerplus was also a responsible for some lag last i checked |
| 06:43 |
erlehmann |
lemonzest, Insayne if you want to make own content, read this book https://rubenwardy.com/minetest_modding_book/en/index.html |
| 06:43 |
lemonzest |
yeah don't have that, seen it tho |
| 06:43 |
erlehmann |
it is really simple to make a mod |
| 06:44 |
lemonzest |
I'm just starting simple, get used to it |
| 06:45 |
erlehmann |
two things that may not be immediately clear: servers have very different rules. if a player repeatedly kills other players on an anarchy server, no admin will help in-game. the person will not be banned. |
| 06:45 |
erlehmann |
other servers have more order, like i have seen even ppl who want to vote and give you a plot to build. |
| 06:45 |
lemonzest |
yeah, i tuned off pvp |
| 06:46 |
erlehmann |
if you want to see what anarchy looks like, go to oysterity. if you want to see what order looks like, go to your-land. |
| 06:46 |
erlehmann |
also, something i did not understand in the beginning: if a server rule says “no dating”, they do not mean you can't bring your girlfriend or boyfriend. they mean: no lewd stuff in public chats, bc it's family friendly or something. |
| 06:47 |
lemonzest |
I only plan to play on my own server with a few frinds, thanks for the suggestion of those other servers tho, might check them out |
| 06:47 |
erlehmann |
also there is one game that is online only |
| 06:47 |
lemonzest |
the no dating thing might also mean no hitting on other players? |
| 06:47 |
erlehmann |
i'd avoid it |
| 06:48 |
lemonzest |
heh |
| 06:48 |
erlehmann |
look ppl usually go to minetest to play with virtual legos not to flirt. surely it is different from server to server. |
| 06:48 |
lemonzest |
which game is online only? |
| 06:48 |
erlehmann |
i think oysterity had (or has?) “this is a dating server” in the description |
| 06:49 |
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| 06:49 |
erlehmann |
but this is probably because the joke is that oysterity is everything catlandia is not |
| 06:49 |
erlehmann |
and catlandia has “this is not a dating server” |
| 06:49 |
erlehmann |
;) |
| 06:49 |
erlehmann |
so i suggest to behave |
| 06:49 |
erlehmann |
the online game is called inside the box |
| 06:49 |
erlehmann |
you can find it in the server list |
| 06:49 |
erlehmann |
it is an escape room puzzle |
| 06:49 |
erlehmann |
think portal without portal gun |
| 06:50 |
erlehmann |
also there is a minigame server from MisterE |
| 06:50 |
erlehmann |
you can play kwikbild there or how it is called, one person builds and others have to guess what it is |
| 06:50 |
erlehmann |
or sumo, where you try to push others out of the arena |
| 06:50 |
erlehmann |
there is also a capture the flag game where you can shoot and built |
| 06:51 |
erlehmann |
and players have different classes (sniper, medic, melee) |
| 06:51 |
erlehmann |
also there was a game jam at the end of last year and some cool games came out of it |
| 06:51 |
erlehmann |
for example, alter, a puzzle with a unique teleport mechanic |
| 06:53 |
erlehmann |
lemonzest if you play on your own server, i can suggest two things: 1. do not put it in the public server list 2. if you are really afraid of griefing, install a protection mod (protected areas or protection nodes) or do not give people the “interact” privilege by default, so they can not do anything in the world |
| 06:53 |
lemonzest |
its not on the server list and its passworded |
| 06:53 |
erlehmann |
wdym passworded |
| 06:54 |
erlehmann |
password at first login? |
| 06:54 |
lemonzest |
password to join yes |
| 06:54 |
lemonzest |
I also enabled rollback |
| 06:55 |
erlehmann |
rollback can be useful, but a) it is difficult to rollback your rollback b) i think it costs memory, no idea how much c) if someone griefs something and then grows a tree there, i think your rollback is useless |
| 06:55 |
erlehmann |
not sure about that last thing |
| 06:56 |
erlehmann |
if you are that afraid, better do the interact privilege thing |
| 06:58 |
erlehmann |
unless you think your friends are assholes at times and destroy each others stuff |
| 06:58 |
erlehmann |
you can also make backups ofc |
| 07:01 |
erlehmann |
lemonzest https://content.minetest.net/packages/Fleckenstein/playerlist/ |
| 07:02 |
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| 07:03 |
erlehmann |
Insayne lemonzest i lied, sorry. obviously contentdb contains not *all* the cool games and mods. some are only found elsewhere. |
| 07:04 |
erlehmann |
but it contains a lot. |
| 07:05 |
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| 07:07 |
erlehmann |
appguru how hard would it be to figure out the average color of a PNG texture using the lua png tools we already have? |
| 07:08 |
erlehmann |
(i.e. something in lua) |
| 07:12 |
erlehmann |
i am asking bc there are 15 different PNG color types (from which 11 could reasonably be used in minetest) and have no idea if lua decoders can do them all |
| 07:18 |
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| 07:48 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> my png decoder can handle them all :D |
| 07:50 |
Pexin |
no dating typically means, regardless of pronouns, basically treat everyone as genderless. because as mentioned, people are playing legos and nobody wants to be uncomfortable - not just whoever is being flirted at. also pedos |
| 07:52 |
erlehmann |
“this is a gender-free server. all genders will be kicked & banned” |
| 07:56 |
erlehmann |
luatic that's nice! |
| 07:56 |
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| 08:44 |
Insayne |
that was definitely interesting :) |
| 08:49 |
lemonzest |
Yay |
| 08:49 |
erlehmann |
lemonzest have you installed playerlist or something similar? |
| 08:50 |
erlehmann |
without it, players need to type /status |
| 08:50 |
erlehmann |
which is not as easily accessible |
| 08:51 |
lemonzest |
nah I've not |
| 08:51 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Not a fan of playerlist as it requires overloading controls |
| 08:51 |
erlehmann |
well another way is to have player names always visible |
| 08:52 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Maybe key combinations could provide a solution, but IMO a simple "players" command would be enough |
| 08:52 |
erlehmann |
if there is no pvp it is good idea |
| 08:52 |
lemonzest |
I have coloured name tags |
| 08:52 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> erlehmann: Too much clutter on larger servers though |
| 08:52 |
erlehmann |
true |
| 08:54 |
lemonzest |
I don't really need a players command tho, I know who's on |
| 08:54 |
erlehmann |
the question is, do the players |
| 08:55 |
lemonzest |
we're friends so yeah |
| 08:55 |
erlehmann |
ok cool |
| 08:55 |
lemonzest |
I don't plan on being public |
| 08:56 |
erlehmann |
lemonzest this can be nice if you want many more biomes https://content.minetest.net/packages/TenPlus1/ethereal/ |
| 08:56 |
lemonzest |
tried it, didn't like the biomes, they kept coming up purple with mushrooms everywhere |
| 08:56 |
erlehmann |
ah lol |
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| 17:38 |
MTDiscord |
<Bastrabun> Is there a way of knowing which value in minetest.conf can be changed from a running server and which cannot? |
| 17:42 |
MTDiscord |
<Bastrabun> Example: You CAN change the max_users with the /set command, but you CANNOT change dedicated_server_step |
| 17:42 |
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| 18:05 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Reading the sources ;) |
| 18:06 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> WDYM by "CAN change" though? Changing some values might trigger freezes or crashes, while others won't take effect until after a restart, and only some will be both "changable" and take effect immediately. |
| 18:08 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Anyways, the code reads as follows: bool ClientInterface::isUserLimitReached() { return getClientIDs(CS_HelloSent).size() >= g_settings->getU16("max_users"); } so clearly max_users isn't changed and changes at runtime will don't require a restart to take effect |
| 18:10 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> dedicated_server_step on the other hand is read just once and then cached: static thread_local const float steplen = g_settings->getFloat("dedicated_server_step"); |
| 18:10 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> To find such stuff out, just do grep -r <settingname> inside your MT src dir. |
| 18:25 |
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| 18:26 |
Wuzzy |
5.5.0 broke Hades Revisited mapgen ? |
| 18:26 |
Wuzzy |
apparently, minetest.set_mapgen_params fails to set the mapgen params now |
| 18:26 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> hades broke every other game in 5.4 |
| 18:27 |
Wuzzy |
no, that was minetest |
| 18:27 |
Wuzzy |
minetest.set_mapgen_setting("mgv6_spflags", "nomudflow,nosnowbiomes,notrees,nojungles") |
| 18:27 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> minetest bug, your games fault where it could have at least set it back on shut down |
| 18:28 |
Wuzzy |
this function no longer works when starting the game for some reason |
| 18:28 |
Wuzzy |
in my defense, it's in alpha stage, so breakage is allowed ? |
| 18:29 |
Wuzzy |
so this is weird. why does set_mapgen_setting no longer set my mapgen setting? |
| 18:29 |
Wuzzy |
i tested with /set command after launch and mgv6_spflag is still at default :/ |
| 18:29 |
Wuzzy |
Am I misunderstanding how this function works? |
| 18:52 |
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| 19:06 |
sfan5 |
did you try passing a third argument as true |
| 19:07 |
rubenwardy |
problem is that overrides existing worlds |
| 19:07 |
rubenwardy |
I think it was designed like this so that it only sets on new worlds, but the create world dialog setting them messes it up |
| 19:08 |
sfan5 |
ah yeah that's true |
| 19:18 |
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| 19:29 |
erlehmann |
Krock how would i detect useless hud flags with the profiler? |
| 19:29 |
MinetestBot |
[git] appgurueu -> minetest/minetest: Fix types of get_mapgen_setting_noiseparams (#12025) 1ee3714 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/1ee37148a8072fe6350124cd51c812c3d3fb069a (2022-02-04T19:28:43Z) |
| 19:29 |
erlehmann |
like, i have found both situations in which sending lots of hud flags is legit and ones where it is not |
| 19:29 |
erlehmann |
so it can not just be the amounts of hud flags sent |
| 19:31 |
MinetestBot |
[git] sfan5 -> minetest/minetest: Fix broken server startup if curl is disabled (#12046) afb061c https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/afb061c374ed6797f47b0806aba26845713d15ac (2022-02-04T19:29:28Z) |
| 19:31 |
MinetestBot |
[git] Zughy -> minetest/minetest: Update copyright year in README (#12029) be05c90 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/be05c9022d8b6eff63f477bc8ca52efd7d631cb6 (2022-02-04T19:29:39Z) |
| 19:32 |
Krock |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/src/client/client.cpp#L370-L388 |
| 19:32 |
Krock |
not directly per-mod but you can find excessive packet calls |
| 19:33 |
Krock |
"grep -r" will then tell you the candidates. it ain't great, but at least there's something |
| 19:34 |
Krock |
ah nvm. it seems you already know of this feature |
| 19:35 |
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| 19:35 |
erlehmann |
Krock i do. the problem is that the sheer amount of hudchange packets does not matter. for example, mcl_maps uses hud to show a little dot on the handheld map which shows the player position. that's a hud update. |
| 19:35 |
erlehmann |
so it's legit |
| 19:35 |
erlehmann |
it may be even legit to update that every globalstep (or maybe not every globalstep, but often) |
| 19:35 |
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| 19:53 |
fluxionary |
is there a way to get wireshark to re-assemble "split" packets and parse what's in them? (using the minetest plugin) |
| 19:54 |
erlehmann |
fluxionary no idea, but check out https://github.com/anon55555/mt if you do network stuff |
| 19:54 |
fluxionary |
will do |
| 19:55 |
fluxionary |
feel like i've seen this repo before... |
| 19:55 |
sfan5 |
fluxionary: there is almost surely a way but the dissector we have doesn't do it |
| 19:55 |
fluxionary |
oh right, the "proxy" |
| 19:55 |
erlehmann |
fluxionary, yes it is used for this https://github.com/OysterityAnarchy/mt-netopt-proxy |
| 19:56 |
fluxionary |
sfan: yeah, i've seen other things do that in wireshark, but i've never written one myself |
| 19:56 |
erlehmann |
makes minetest go brrrr |
| 19:57 |
erlehmann |
i think i understand now how the proxy reduces inventory chatter. it sends “keep” instead of huge items https://github.com/OysterityAnarchy/mt-netopt-proxy/blob/master/proxy.go#LC150 |
| 19:58 |
erlehmann |
but why does minetest proper not do this? |
| 20:07 |
fluxionary |
hm. getting it to run isn't hard (never used go before), but how do i get it to ... tell me anything interesting? |
| 20:11 |
erlehmann |
add some printf debugging ig? |
| 20:12 |
fluxionary |
fair suggestion |
| 20:23 |
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| 20:34 |
mazes_83 |
is there a way to allow 5.4 client from 5.5 server, sorry first time this problem occurs for me. I already sercher a bit (not so long though) |
| 20:36 |
erlehmann |
mazes_83 what exactly happens if you try it? |
| 20:36 |
mazes_83 |
A mismatched client tried to connect from n.n.n.n proto_max=39 |
| 20:37 |
sfan5 |
did you enable strict_protocol_version_checking? |
| 20:38 |
mazes_83 |
oh yes, that's it |
| 20:45 |
mazes_83 |
sorry for the noise, thanks for the help |
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| 21:01 |
lagash |
I'm trying to find a mod with a "mega block" where you place it and then, perhaps after clicking it again or something, it "grows" into some sort of structure. Any ideas? |
| 21:05 |
lagash |
Like a house, portal, etc. And by grow I mean more instant than slow plant growth. |
| 21:09 |
erlehmann |
lagash technically, mineclone5 mushrooms lol |
| 21:09 |
erlehmann |
i think they are placed like that |
| 21:10 |
MTDiscord |
<Bastrabun> Or any tree saplings for that matter? |
| 21:10 |
erlehmann |
also mineclonia villages on the cora-production branch |
| 21:10 |
erlehmann |
turns out village spawning *inside* the mapgen is super slow because it tries to repair mapgen griefing |
| 21:10 |
erlehmann |
thus overwriting each mapblock up to 8 times |
| 21:10 |
erlehmann |
but once you place only a village structure block which unpacks itself at the earliest possible moment, bazingo! |
| 21:11 |
MTDiscord |
<j45> I might be able to help if you need help with the mt go pkg, fluxionary |
| 21:11 |
erlehmann |
if the mapgen griefs it, no village for you |
| 21:11 |
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| 21:11 |
Guest30 |
Hi |
| 21:11 |
erlehmann |
j45 is your cursed mt go project published already? |
| 21:11 |
fluxionary |
j45: i got it built, it just didn't do much out of the box |
| 21:11 |
MTDiscord |
<j45> Yes, it is more of an api |
| 21:11 |
erlehmann |
j45 has built a cursed thing |
| 21:12 |
MTDiscord |
<j45> How is it cursed? |
| 21:12 |
erlehmann |
never intended ^^ |
| 21:12 |
erlehmann |
well i like it |
| 21:12 |
erlehmann |
but is it published? |
| 21:12 |
Guest30 |
guys, if i build minetest from source i can download minetest-game in game menu? |
| 21:12 |
sfan5 |
yes |
| 21:12 |
Guest30 |
Okay |
| 21:13 |
Guest30 |
Thanks |
| 21:13 |
MTDiscord |
<j45> Erleh: which project? Chat logger is but the other project i have temporarily paused and is in a private repo |
| 21:13 |
erlehmann |
yes give mt chat |
| 21:14 |
erlehmann |
and WIP for the other project :> |
| 21:14 |
erlehmann |
release early, release often etc. pp. |
| 21:14 |
MTDiscord |
<j45> mt_chat is the one in the private repo and i dont want to release it yet |
| 21:14 |
MTDiscord |
<j45> The chat logger is public |
| 21:15 |
guest3456 |
lol I just browsed the minetest_docs repo a bit |
| 21:15 |
guest3456 |
minetest devs seem to disagree sometimes |
| 21:15 |
guest3456 |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest_docs/blob/master/HOWTO.adoc |
| 21:16 |
guest3456 |
quote |
| 21:16 |
guest3456 |
Technical Jargon Saturation |
| 21:16 |
guest3456 |
Avoid too much technical detail for things that are unimportant, implied, or explained soon after. |
| 21:16 |
guest3456 |
BAD: |
| 21:16 |
guest3456 |
The ThisObject metatable provides an OOP-like utility for processing the index mathematics of a ThatObject. |
| 21:16 |
guest3456 |
This has way too much implementation detail and unnecessary technical terms. |
| 21:16 |
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| 21:16 |
guest3456 |
and then |
| 21:16 |
guest3456 |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest_docs/blob/master/doc/VoxelArea.adoc |
| 21:16 |
guest3456 |
VoxelArea |
| 21:16 |
guest3456 |
The VoxelArea metatable provides an OOP-like utility for dealing with LuaVoxelManip (specifically, for doing the index math). |
| 21:21 |
erlehmann |
how to create nan instead of math.sqrt(-1) |
| 21:21 |
erlehmann |
i mean it creates -nan here |
| 21:21 |
erlehmann |
but i really just need a quick nan |
| 21:22 |
MTDiscord |
<j45> I think 1/0 got a funky number but i cant remember what |
| 21:22 |
Hawk777 |
0 ÷ 0 is the usual NaN AFAIK |
| 21:22 |
erlehmann |
it's inf |
| 21:22 |
Hawk777 |
1 ÷ 0 is infinity |
| 21:22 |
erlehmann |
oh 0/0 is a shorter -nan thx |
| 21:22 |
erlehmann |
lol |
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erlehmann |
i think minetest does not handle running out of memory well. it seems random values in lua become nil? |
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| 22:51 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> guest3456: I wrote the VoxelArea docs and @GreenXenith basically wrote the guideline in response to that as he saw lots of room for improvement. Only has that improvement not happened yet. |
| 22:52 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> erlehmann: random values become nil? that shouldn't happen |
| 22:52 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> and yes 0/0 is the usual, I prefer modlib.number.negative_nan for readability though lol |
| 22:52 |
Guest345654 |
luatic: I deduced that from the git blame |
| 22:52 |
Guest345654 |
it's a funny style of criticism tho |
| 22:52 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> To be clear, I do agree with GX that it could be more user-friendly |
| 22:53 |
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| 22:55 |
erlehmann |
> Avoid too much technical detail for things that are […] implied |
| 22:55 |
erlehmann |
welllllllllll |
| 22:55 |
erlehmann |
usually things that are implied are what trips ppl up |
| 22:56 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> But Guest345654, why don't you head over to #minetest-docs for chatter about the docs repo :) |
| 22:56 |
Guest345654 |
heh, I was only cursorily browsing |
| 22:57 |
Guest345654 |
have to peruse lots of other docs before I can add seriously to minetest_docs |
| 22:59 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> erlehmann: Obviously obvious implications implied |
| 22:59 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> Sorry, couldnt pass up the opportunity for that |
| 23:00 |
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| 23:00 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> Real answer: The section refers to heavy technical detail, where too much is more confusing than just implying it |
| 23:01 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> Feel free to suggest better wording, PRs welcome |
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| 23:30 |
erlehmann |
has anyone made a mod with map markers? i have added map markers to maps in item frames. they were working in item frames from the beginning, but now they display the approx frame location. |
| 23:31 |
erlehmann |
it looks like this https://mister-muffin.de/p/RBUU.jpg or this https://mister-muffin.de/p/k1Vr.jpg |
| 23:38 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> so that's what you wanted to get avg texture colors for ;) |
| 23:38 |
erlehmann |
luatic currently there exists a python script by fleckenstein, which samples all textures and writes the results to json |
| 23:39 |
erlehmann |
but the problem is ofc that it does not know about other mods |
| 23:39 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> bruh moment, using modlib I can do it in like 10 lines of code |
| 23:39 |
erlehmann |
but at which COST |
| 23:39 |
erlehmann |
i mean runtime |
| 23:39 |
erlehmann |
if you give me the code, i benchmark it |
| 23:40 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> The cost of reading and processing the textures once? |
| 23:40 |
erlehmann |
the cost of reading and processing the textures every time at server startup |
| 23:40 |
erlehmann |
because mods might have changed, textures might have changed |
| 23:40 |
erlehmann |
etc. pp. |
| 23:40 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> well, you could keep a cache somewhere in the world folder |
| 23:40 |
erlehmann |
sounds like more than 10 lines suddenly, you know ;) |
| 23:40 |
erlehmann |
so the thing is, i'd be happy to have it work perfectly |
| 23:41 |
erlehmann |
but i have limited energyß |
| 23:41 |
erlehmann |
so right now i continue using the json file |
| 23:43 |
erlehmann |
luatic do you know about any other map mods btw? mcl_maps is a bit older, but the only one besides cartographer i know |
