Time Nick Message 01:09 erlehmann appguru rubenwardy i have done what i wanted. thank you for your help. https://git.minetest.land/Mineclonia/Mineclonia/commit/39683ba8629aeb7b093816419c2ba58df9e89fe4 01:09 erlehmann GreenXenith, how stupid is that commit? 01:09 MTDiscord Why on earth are you asking me about this 01:10 erlehmann because you made some mod that paints stuff i think 01:10 MTDiscord Ah, I see 01:12 erlehmann the thing is, whatever format you chose for an 128x128 pixel map, you'll have 4kb to 10kb of meta in your item (except if you want to save a single-colored plain, but few mapgens spit that out) 01:12 erlehmann and i wonder, if there is some useful trick. 01:14 erlehmann the thing is, from all the things i came up with so far, only color channel reduction did something 01:14 erlehmann obviously, because no one notices if your pixelated 128x128 map has 24 bit or 16 bit colors 01:14 MTDiscord You could just .. not store the map inside the item? 01:14 erlehmann that was how it was before. and then it breaks on map downloads. 01:15 MTDiscord What is mod storage? 01:15 erlehmann mod storage is a way to save information server-side, as far as i konw. 01:15 erlehmann know 01:15 erlehmann what does mod storage have to do with this? 01:16 rubenwardy saving the map inside the item is weird 01:16 MTDiscord It was a way of saying "use mod storage" 01:16 MTDiscord Because mod storage is stored in the world 01:16 erlehmann oh, it is? o.0 01:16 MTDiscord Yes 01:16 erlehmann uh, where in a map download is it? 01:17 erlehmann this is concerning, bc i thought mod storage was private 01:17 rubenwardy and many things break world downloads, map images are hardly vital 01:17 MTDiscord yourworld/mod_storage/modname 01:17 rubenwardy mod storage isn't available in local world saving 01:17 erlehmann rubenwardy map images are the one user-generated content that takes ages to make 01:17 rubenwardy I'm sure that would be the case with other stuff in mod storage too 01:18 MTDiscord Wait, do you want to be able to save maps via local save? 01:18 erlehmann yes 01:18 rubenwardy the priority should be performance and stability, rather than supporting local save 01:18 MTDiscord Yeah, supporting local save is ridiculous 01:18 erlehmann i think mcl mods actually do not use mod storage for much. in this case, the current map id. i should randomize it. 01:19 erlehmann GreenXenith local save is the only reason why i have a backup of clamity. 01:19 MTDiscord That shouldnt be your problem 01:19 MTDiscord Server owners should always have backups 01:19 erlehmann in this case it was an admin clearing it out though 01:19 MTDiscord Its not the job of a game to do the job of server hosts 01:20 MTDiscord ^ 01:20 erlehmann well, in fact, this is the only one of three things in mcl mods that uses mod storage 01:20 MTDiscord Irrelevant 01:20 erlehmann and the other ones are already recalculated 01:20 MTDiscord Use mod storage, full stop 01:20 MTDiscord Forget local save support 01:20 erlehmann so it is the *only* item that breaks in world downloads 01:21 erlehmann and coincidentally, the one that is hardest to replace 01:21 erlehmann from all items (since it is so ridiculous to even set it up) 01:22 erlehmann i don't see why i should use mod storage anyway for bitmaps if they can be written to a file 01:23 MTDiscord well, thats fair too 01:23 MTDiscord fine, s/mod storage/world storage 01:23 erlehmann well, already doing that 01:24 MTDiscord then just get rid of the item storage part and call it a day 01:24 erlehmann the item storage part is this entire commit lol 01:24 erlehmann i wonder would there be another way to make it work? 01:24 MTDiscord then I guess the answer to your question is: The commit is pretty stupid 01:25 erlehmann oh yeah, that's what i wanted to know. so is it because the implementation is stupid or bc the goal is stupid? 01:25 MTDiscord The goal 01:25 MTDiscord Although im curious as to why each map is taking up 4-10kb+? 01:26 erlehmann because it is an 128x128 bitmap 01:26 erlehmann make a screenshot, save it as png in gimp, it will be that size or larger 01:26 erlehmann for 128x128 01:26 erlehmann you can of course have smaller maps, if they are mostly a single color with an x in the middle or so 01:26 erlehmann but realistically, you'll have rolling hills and stuff 01:27 MTDiscord Alright yeah that makes sense 01:28 MTDiscord Do detached inventories get saved in the world? 01:29 erlehmann there is an upper bound (worst case) of about 32kb or so for saving 128×128 pixels verbatim as A1R5G5B5. you can go to 16kb for the worst case if you have no more than 256 nodes. but most of the landscapes are not deliberately engineered noise made to confuse zlib or rle compression. 01:29 MTDiscord If so, you could use a detached inventory to store map data as items. Weird hack but it could work 01:30 erlehmann i believe the fractal that hecks added to the RGBA PNG encoder are a pretty good worst case. the encoder is basic, but gimp, trying to be smart about it, manages to make the fractal *bigger* on my machine hahaha. 01:30 erlehmann like, more file size 01:31 erlehmann GreenXenith, in what ways does having a detached inventory benefit? 01:31 erlehmann does it remove lag? 01:31 MTDiscord It means you dont have to store the data in your players' inventories 01:31 erlehmann to be fair, a single shulker (portable chest) filled with enchanted items is way worse than some map that can not carry an entire chest 01:32 erlehmann so that is why 4kb to 10kb are not much 01:33 erlehmann i must admit i do not understand the detached inventory logic well enough to see how it would benefit anything. i have a map item in my inventory. should it have a matching ghost item in a detached inventory? 01:33 MTDiscord What is the issue you are having? 01:33 MTDiscord Lag due to large item metadata in player inventories right? 01:34 erlehmann that issue is fully solved by the anon5 proxy i thought 01:34 erlehmann also i have only had it either when walking around with heavily enchanted gear where each armor piece has 21kb of meta (download mineclone 0.71 if you want to experience that) or … 01:35 MTDiscord Alright look at it this way 01:35 erlehmann … when having lots of shulkers, as each shulker has a standard chest serialized to its meta. some tricksters even put shulkers in shulkers. 01:35 MTDiscord Originally your map items referenced a map image in world storage, right? No issues? 01:35 erlehmann well, the world download issue 01:35 erlehmann it being the only item that is useless in a world dl 01:36 MTDiscord Sure but otherwise fine 01:36 MTDiscord Instead, you use a detached inventory as your "world storage". 01:36 erlehmann i wouldn't say fine, the code was obviously not the best. i can still improve the texture compression a bit for example. 01:36 erlehmann okay 01:36 erlehmann and then? 01:36 MTDiscord That way the storage is included in a world dl, and you dont get perf issues with lots of data in player inventories 01:37 erlehmann that's quite an interesting suggestion, but would it leak all maps to all players? 01:37 erlehmann we have detached inventories right now. but they are only for villagers. 01:37 erlehmann and yes, currently all maps *are* sent to all players, i know that 01:37 erlehmann i have to update the media sending code for 5.5 anyway, i'll get to it 01:38 MTDiscord I dont even know if detached inventories are part of world downloads, they may not be 01:38 erlehmann GreenXenith do you have a showcase for this type of thing? it sounds super interesting. 01:38 MTDiscord If they are, then yeah it would be available to any player 01:38 erlehmann well, i know that they occur in the network 01:38 erlehmann like if someone has spawned a villager anywhere, i can see its trading inventory 01:38 MTDiscord Why on earth would I have a showcase for that on hand 01:39 erlehmann because it's the kind of thing that sounds like it might work (or not) 01:39 rubenwardy one benefit of storing map images in the map item is that it will automatically GC 01:39 MTDiscord hunger mod saves stuff in a dettached inventory 01:39 erlehmann rubenwardy yeah, that is actually important once i make the maps “explorer maps” (which i plan long-term) 01:39 MTDiscord oh? link please (less because im lazy, more because "hunger mod" is really ambiguous) 01:39 rubenwardy which hunger mod? 01:39 rubenwardy that sounds odd 01:39 erlehmann i want to update the stored bitmap with what the player sees 01:39 rubenwardy oh, that's not already the case? 01:40 erlehmann well, right now it samples the world, aligned to 128x128 squares 01:40 rubenwardy I assumed it was a Lua implementation of MC-like maps, which update as you move 01:40 erlehmann which obviously means you have a single map that is filled out right at the start 01:40 MTDiscord visit wuzzys shitty git host 01:40 MTDiscord if i recall correctly 01:41 erlehmann rubenwardy ideally it will be at some point. but right now it is more about map art, which is also why i do not want to break anything. 01:41 rubenwardy hbhunger? https://content.minetest.net/packages/Wuzzy/hbhunger/ 01:41 erlehmann ppl use the maps to document where their bases are and show it to others 01:41 MTDiscord https://repo.or.cz/minetest_hbhunger.git/blob/HEAD:/init.lua#l65 01:41 erlehmann and they make funny bitmaps and then snapshot them 01:41 rubenwardy ewww thisis such a hack 01:42 rubenwardy don't use the inventory to store numbers like this 01:42 erlehmann minetest is hacks upon hacks upon hacks anyway lol 01:42 rubenwardy I bet they were being lazy, and this was before player meta 01:42 erlehmann this takes the cake though 01:42 MTDiscord shitty code on a shitty host 01:42 MTDiscord Ive seen worse 01:42 rubenwardy yeah, repo.or.cz sucks 01:42 MTDiscord Anyway, basically that but for map data 01:42 erlehmann hunger is an item 01:42 erlehmann lol 01:42 MTDiscord assuming local saves catch it 01:43 MTDiscord which I doubt for some reason 01:43 rubenwardy I don't think local saves do 01:43 erlehmann well rubenwardys thing with garbage collection is much more important than local saves 01:43 rubenwardy and you also end up sending it either to one player, which doesn't help, or to all players, which is bad 01:43 erlehmann because once i start updating a map i can either write lots of stuff somewhere 01:43 erlehmann or i can just update the meta 01:43 MTDiscord just not supporting local save is still the ideal avenue here 01:44 erlehmann GreenXenith and how do i handle map updating then? 01:44 MTDiscord store your map in the world directory and reference it in the meta? 01:44 MTDiscord that kind of thing is simple ... I dont know why youd need to ask 01:44 erlehmann garbage collection. maps can be copied. 01:45 MTDiscord so reference the same map until updated 01:45 MTDiscord when it gets updated, make a copy 01:45 rubenwardy copy on write 01:45 rubenwardy the problem then is keeping track of references 01:45 rubenwardy which you can do using mod storage 01:45 rubenwardy but heh 01:45 erlehmann haha 01:46 MTDiscord Doesnt seem like a problem to me 01:46 rubenwardy oh wait, you can't render item meta directly - so storing in meta would be extra wasteful 01:46 rubenwardy well 01:46 rubenwardy if it's a node meta formspec, you can use meta interpolation 01:46 rubenwardy with the png modifier 01:47 rubenwardy image[0,0;5,5;[png:${map_image} 01:47 rubenwardy but this is an item that isn't placed 01:47 MTDiscord well, it is 01:47 MTDiscord just as an entity 01:47 MTDiscord in an itemframe 01:47 erlehmann yes 01:48 MTDiscord Anyway, ive contributed my two cents. World storage and ID references. I have nothing more to say ? 01:48 erlehmann i think from 10000 feet the PNG modifier is on the same level of garbage as my patch, only that it is entirely useless for my purpose 01:49 erlehmann rubenwardy maybe being able to render item meta directly can be a thing? it would also simplify compasses 01:49 rubenwardy without the png modifier, you'll need to use dynamic media anyway 01:50 rubenwardy not sure how you'd even do that 01:50 rubenwardy oh right 01:50 erlehmann compasses have to be a bunch of items right now 01:50 erlehmann as clocks have to be 01:50 rubenwardy meta data setting inventories would support this with the PNG modifier 01:50 rubenwardy as you could use it as the texture name 01:50 rubenwardy #5686 01:50 erlehmann i'll look 01:51 rubenwardy MinetestBot! 01:51 MinetestBot rubenwardy! 01:51 erlehmann lol 01:51 rubenwardy oh is it ShadowBot 01:51 rubenwardy https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5686 01:51 erlehmann thanks for nothing, shadowbot! 01:51 erlehmann thanks rubenwardy 01:52 MTDiscord use the lua hud/inventory mod 01:52 erlehmann link? 01:52 erlehmann i could use that for banners 01:52 erlehmann long ago (before mcl2 split into 3 projects) i improved mcl2 banners so that they had a crafting preview 01:53 erlehmann but in the inventory they still do not show their motive 01:53 MTDiscord oh look, a old issue that was brought back from being paramatted 01:53 erlehmann i did this by means of having preview banner items 01:53 MTDiscord thankfully 01:53 erlehmann ig paramatted means “paramat hates this feature and shoots it” 01:53 erlehmann right? 01:54 rubenwardy yes 01:54 rubenwardy the offshot is rubenwardied 01:54 MTDiscord it means as kiblith would say the village idiot being a idiot 01:55 erlehmann i gathered kilbith says a lot of things about a lot of people and rarely those are niceties :P 01:55 MTDiscord na ruben, thats roadmapped 01:55 MTDiscord well, he is isnt wrong 01:55 MTDiscord go play jordachs drinking game sometime 01:57 MTDiscord anyways, thank you for saving that issue ruben 01:58 MTDiscord slowly it seems minetest is becoming more and more dynamic 02:01 erlehmann rubenwardy GreenXenith thanks for your help and your opinions (even the ones that are “this is bad, don't do it”). given the fact that this is the only item breaking in mcl* world downloads and 4kb to 10kb of meta is not very much and making those things explorer maps instead of fully explored maps will reduce the size of the meta of a map a lot (until it is fully explored), i'll stay with this thing for now. for 02:01 erlehmann the future, maybe we can save the zlibbed pixels directly and see where it goes (not the PNG though, since minetest.encode_png() produces 32 bit color depth images and i already have a palette when generating the image). 02:02 erlehmann i will take a look at detached inventories. the thing from the hunger mod looked not too convincing though. 02:03 erlehmann by which i mean: “why, wuzzy, why?” 02:03 rubenwardy shit code 02:03 rubenwardy possible inherited from BlockMen 02:04 erlehmann almost all code i touch is shit code, including my own 02:04 erlehmann my coworkers probably think i am joking when i tell them “computers were a mistake” is a good first sentence when meeting a stranger in a bar 02:05 erlehmann i guess when daddy turing gave us the theory of thinking rocks, he did not think if he should, only if he could. 02:06 erlehmann and here we are 02:06 rubenwardy that may be true, but is not a good first sentence when meeting someone in a bar 02:07 rubenwardy try "Hey" 02:07 MTDiscord In my experience thinking rocks aren't nearly as bad as thinking meat. 02:08 MTDiscord When people ask "do you think computers will ever achieve human intelligence" I'd say "yeah, but only if they give up on their dreams." 02:08 erlehmann harr harr 02:10 MTDiscord "Not a good first sentence" depends on "good for what purpose" anyway 02:11 rubenwardy if it's a ludites bar / tech woerks, then you might have some things in common 02:11 erlehmann no, hackers 02:11 erlehmann last time i remember saying the sentence offline i hung out with two ppl and one of them said yeah she agrees bc she used to work on chrome lol 02:14 erlehmann as john godfrey saxe famously said as early as 1869, “computer programs are like sausages – it is best not to see them being made.” 02:14 MTDiscord Well, the sentence doesn't work quite as well over IRC :-) 02:14 erlehmann (the quote is most often attributed to otto von bismarck however) 02:15 MTDiscord https://xkcd.com/2015/ 02:15 erlehmann this reminds me of https://james-iry.blogspot.com/2009/05/brief-incomplete-and-mostly-wrong.html 02:16 erlehmann > 1972 - Dennis Ritchie invents a powerful gun that shoots both forward and backward simultaneously. Not satisfied with the number of deaths and permanent maimings from that invention he invents C and Unix. 02:18 MTDiscord Haha this is all very "alcohol is mankind's worst invention; now pour me another" of you. 02:19 erlehmann you can only prove that i am a hypocrite using that argument, but not that what i say is wrong ;) 02:19 MTDiscord Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a terrible idea that will go very wrong very badly. 02:20 MTDiscord I'm not necessarily saying there weren't a mistake, I'm just saying that in the chain of mistakes that characterizes history, they don't particularly stand out. 02:22 MTDiscord Regardless, even if I could prove that you were wrong about computers being a mistake, I couldn't prove that saying so wouldn't lead to the kind of conversation you're looking for. 02:26 erlehmann that's very meta of you 02:26 erlehmann i want to compliment you, but my mind is occupied with something else rn 06:03 Insayne Hey 06:05 erlehmann what 06:06 Insayne How goes it? 06:12 erlehmann müde 06:12 Insayne what is muede? 06:13 erlehmann equal goes it loose 06:13 erlehmann it's german for sleepy 06:15 Insayne ah, okay 06:15 Insayne have a good night 06:15 erlehmann it's 78 06:15 erlehmann it's 7:15 in the morning 06:15 Insayne oh 06:15 Insayne 1:15 am here 06:16 Insayne anyway, i am thinking of joining minetest , just want to know a little about the game. 06:17 Insayne i.e pros / cons 06:17 Insayne that sorta thing 06:24 lemonzest hey Insayne lol 06:25 Insayne hey lemonzest :D 06:25 lemonzest you could look at the website, and you know I have a server up :) 06:25 lemonzest i have a few mods running 06:26 Insayne ah, cool 06:27 lemonzest Its in creative mode, so ahve access to all the materials for building 06:28 lemonzest https://www.minetest.net\ 06:28 Insayne how exactly does it work? 06:28 lemonzest oops, remove the \ 06:28 lemonzest work? you mean the gameplay? 06:29 Insayne yeah, like, crafting and such 06:30 erlehmann Insayne pros: very easy to modify, lots of games and mods, runs fine on computers that have opengl 1.4 or above. cons: random small stuff breaks in minor releases and you basically can't trust game and mod authors that claim to always be compatible with the latest minetest engine. as a dev this may prevent you from actually having something that is finished (like on other platforms, where stuff is fire and forget). as a player 06:30 erlehmann this mostly means that your favourite game may not run in the newest engine version, despite the authors asserting otherwise. for example, if you want to play mineclone2, download minetest 5.4.1 instead of 5.5.0 which came out a few days ago. 06:30 lemonzest well from what I can tell, you can cut down trees for wood, then craft them into planks, and build with them to make for example a house, or dig for ore in caves, smelt it into metals in the furnice and make otehr things 06:31 erlehmann minetest_game, the default game, is supposed to always work with the newest engine. so no surprises there. 06:32 lemonzest I only started with 5.5.0 06:32 lemonzest heh, few days old 06:33 erlehmann also there is contentdb, which is a website and API that rubenwardy develops. it contains all the cool games and mods for minetest: https://content.minetest.net/ 06:33 lemonzest each world is randomly generated with different biomes within, like deserts, snowy areas, forests 06:33 erlehmann you can download these games in an in-game menu 06:34 erlehmann Insayne the default game minetest_game has no mobs, so if you want something like that, go download some mobs 06:35 lemonzest I'm hosting a server for a few friends, Insayne being one of them, so we can have a place to cooperate, that and lag is not really an issue like a shooter would be, I sometimes play with a guy from Brazil and I'm in UK and we have no issues 06:35 erlehmann a game is basically a modpack 06:35 lemonzest yeah, i have animals :) 06:35 erlehmann check these out https://content.minetest.net/packages/Liil/people/ 06:36 lemonzest I have things like, moreores, moreblocks, moretrees, animals, more crops, smooth slopes, and some others 06:41 Insayne ah, i see, thanks 06:41 erlehmann lag is mostly an issue with some badly made games or mods 06:41 erlehmann for example, mineclone2 contains a weather mod that has like an insane amount of particles 06:42 erlehmann so if you do have lag, try deactivating mods 06:42 erlehmann playerplus was also a responsible for some lag last i checked 06:43 erlehmann lemonzest, Insayne if you want to make own content, read this book https://rubenwardy.com/minetest_modding_book/en/index.html 06:43 lemonzest yeah don't have that, seen it tho 06:43 erlehmann it is really simple to make a mod 06:44 lemonzest I'm just starting simple, get used to it 06:45 erlehmann two things that may not be immediately clear: servers have very different rules. if a player repeatedly kills other players on an anarchy server, no admin will help in-game. the person will not be banned. 06:45 erlehmann other servers have more order, like i have seen even ppl who want to vote and give you a plot to build. 06:45 lemonzest yeah, i tuned off pvp 06:46 erlehmann if you want to see what anarchy looks like, go to oysterity. if you want to see what order looks like, go to your-land. 06:46 erlehmann also, something i did not understand in the beginning: if a server rule says “no dating”, they do not mean you can't bring your girlfriend or boyfriend. they mean: no lewd stuff in public chats, bc it's family friendly or something. 06:47 lemonzest I only plan to play on my own server with a few frinds, thanks for the suggestion of those other servers tho, might check them out 06:47 erlehmann also there is one game that is online only 06:47 lemonzest the no dating thing might also mean no hitting on other players? 06:47 erlehmann i'd avoid it 06:48 lemonzest heh 06:48 erlehmann look ppl usually go to minetest to play with virtual legos not to flirt. surely it is different from server to server. 06:48 lemonzest which game is online only? 06:48 erlehmann i think oysterity had (or has?) “this is a dating server” in the description 06:49 erlehmann but this is probably because the joke is that oysterity is everything catlandia is not 06:49 erlehmann and catlandia has “this is not a dating server” 06:49 erlehmann ;) 06:49 erlehmann so i suggest to behave 06:49 erlehmann the online game is called inside the box 06:49 erlehmann you can find it in the server list 06:49 erlehmann it is an escape room puzzle 06:49 erlehmann think portal without portal gun 06:50 erlehmann also there is a minigame server from MisterE 06:50 erlehmann you can play kwikbild there or how it is called, one person builds and others have to guess what it is 06:50 erlehmann or sumo, where you try to push others out of the arena 06:50 erlehmann there is also a capture the flag game where you can shoot and built 06:51 erlehmann and players have different classes (sniper, medic, melee) 06:51 erlehmann also there was a game jam at the end of last year and some cool games came out of it 06:51 erlehmann for example, alter, a puzzle with a unique teleport mechanic 06:53 erlehmann lemonzest if you play on your own server, i can suggest two things: 1. do not put it in the public server list 2. if you are really afraid of griefing, install a protection mod (protected areas or protection nodes) or do not give people the “interact” privilege by default, so they can not do anything in the world 06:53 lemonzest its not on the server list and its passworded 06:53 erlehmann wdym passworded 06:54 erlehmann password at first login? 06:54 lemonzest password to join yes 06:54 lemonzest I also enabled rollback 06:55 erlehmann rollback can be useful, but a) it is difficult to rollback your rollback b) i think it costs memory, no idea how much c) if someone griefs something and then grows a tree there, i think your rollback is useless 06:55 erlehmann not sure about that last thing 06:56 erlehmann if you are that afraid, better do the interact privilege thing 06:58 erlehmann unless you think your friends are assholes at times and destroy each others stuff 06:58 erlehmann you can also make backups ofc 07:01 erlehmann lemonzest https://content.minetest.net/packages/Fleckenstein/playerlist/ 07:03 erlehmann Insayne lemonzest i lied, sorry. obviously contentdb contains not *all* the cool games and mods. some are only found elsewhere. 07:04 erlehmann but it contains a lot. 07:07 erlehmann appguru how hard would it be to figure out the average color of a PNG texture using the lua png tools we already have? 07:08 erlehmann (i.e. something in lua) 07:12 erlehmann i am asking bc there are 15 different PNG color types (from which 11 could reasonably be used in minetest) and have no idea if lua decoders can do them all 07:48 MTDiscord my png decoder can handle them all :D 07:50 Pexin no dating typically means, regardless of pronouns, basically treat everyone as genderless. because as mentioned, people are playing legos and nobody wants to be uncomfortable - not just whoever is being flirted at. also pedos 07:52 erlehmann “this is a gender-free server. all genders will be kicked & banned” 07:56 erlehmann luatic that's nice! 08:44 Insayne that was definitely interesting :) 08:49 lemonzest Yay 08:49 erlehmann lemonzest have you installed playerlist or something similar? 08:50 erlehmann without it, players need to type /status 08:50 erlehmann which is not as easily accessible 08:51 lemonzest nah I've not 08:51 MTDiscord Not a fan of playerlist as it requires overloading controls 08:51 erlehmann well another way is to have player names always visible 08:52 MTDiscord Maybe key combinations could provide a solution, but IMO a simple "players" command would be enough 08:52 erlehmann if there is no pvp it is good idea 08:52 lemonzest I have coloured name tags 08:52 MTDiscord erlehmann: Too much clutter on larger servers though 08:52 erlehmann true 08:54 lemonzest I don't really need a players command tho, I know who's on 08:54 erlehmann the question is, do the players 08:55 lemonzest we're friends so yeah 08:55 erlehmann ok cool 08:55 lemonzest I don't plan on being public 08:56 erlehmann lemonzest this can be nice if you want many more biomes https://content.minetest.net/packages/TenPlus1/ethereal/ 08:56 lemonzest tried it, didn't like the biomes, they kept coming up purple with mushrooms everywhere 08:56 erlehmann ah lol 17:38 MTDiscord Is there a way of knowing which value in minetest.conf can be changed from a running server and which cannot? 17:42 MTDiscord Example: You CAN change the max_users with the /set command, but you CANNOT change dedicated_server_step 18:05 MTDiscord Reading the sources ;) 18:06 MTDiscord WDYM by "CAN change" though? Changing some values might trigger freezes or crashes, while others won't take effect until after a restart, and only some will be both "changable" and take effect immediately. 18:08 MTDiscord Anyways, the code reads as follows: bool ClientInterface::isUserLimitReached() { return getClientIDs(CS_HelloSent).size() >= g_settings->getU16("max_users"); } so clearly max_users isn't changed and changes at runtime will don't require a restart to take effect 18:10 MTDiscord dedicated_server_step on the other hand is read just once and then cached: static thread_local const float steplen = g_settings->getFloat("dedicated_server_step"); 18:10 MTDiscord To find such stuff out, just do grep -r inside your MT src dir. 18:26 Wuzzy 5.5.0 broke Hades Revisited mapgen ? 18:26 Wuzzy apparently, minetest.set_mapgen_params fails to set the mapgen params now 18:26 MTDiscord hades broke every other game in 5.4 18:27 Wuzzy no, that was minetest 18:27 Wuzzy minetest.set_mapgen_setting("mgv6_spflags", "nomudflow,nosnowbiomes,notrees,nojungles") 18:27 MTDiscord minetest bug, your games fault where it could have at least set it back on shut down 18:28 Wuzzy this function no longer works when starting the game for some reason 18:28 Wuzzy in my defense, it's in alpha stage, so breakage is allowed ? 18:29 Wuzzy so this is weird. why does set_mapgen_setting no longer set my mapgen setting? 18:29 Wuzzy i tested with /set command after launch and mgv6_spflag is still at default :/ 18:29 Wuzzy Am I misunderstanding how this function works? 19:06 sfan5 did you try passing a third argument as true 19:07 rubenwardy problem is that overrides existing worlds 19:07 rubenwardy I think it was designed like this so that it only sets on new worlds, but the create world dialog setting them messes it up 19:08 sfan5 ah yeah that's true 19:29 erlehmann Krock how would i detect useless hud flags with the profiler? 19:29 MinetestBot 02[git] 04appgurueu -> 03minetest/minetest: Fix types of get_mapgen_setting_noiseparams (#12025) 131ee3714 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/1ee37148a8072fe6350124cd51c812c3d3fb069a (152022-02-04T19:28:43Z) 19:29 erlehmann like, i have found both situations in which sending lots of hud flags is legit and ones where it is not 19:29 erlehmann so it can not just be the amounts of hud flags sent 19:31 MinetestBot 02[git] 04sfan5 -> 03minetest/minetest: Fix broken server startup if curl is disabled (#12046) 13afb061c https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/afb061c374ed6797f47b0806aba26845713d15ac (152022-02-04T19:29:28Z) 19:31 MinetestBot 02[git] 04Zughy -> 03minetest/minetest: Update copyright year in README (#12029) 13be05c90 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/be05c9022d8b6eff63f477bc8ca52efd7d631cb6 (152022-02-04T19:29:39Z) 19:32 Krock https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/src/client/client.cpp#L370-L388 19:32 Krock not directly per-mod but you can find excessive packet calls 19:33 Krock "grep -r" will then tell you the candidates. it ain't great, but at least there's something 19:34 Krock ah nvm. it seems you already know of this feature 19:35 erlehmann Krock i do. the problem is that the sheer amount of hudchange packets does not matter. for example, mcl_maps uses hud to show a little dot on the handheld map which shows the player position. that's a hud update. 19:35 erlehmann so it's legit 19:35 erlehmann it may be even legit to update that every globalstep (or maybe not every globalstep, but often) 19:53 fluxionary is there a way to get wireshark to re-assemble "split" packets and parse what's in them? (using the minetest plugin) 19:54 erlehmann fluxionary no idea, but check out https://github.com/anon55555/mt if you do network stuff 19:54 fluxionary will do 19:55 fluxionary feel like i've seen this repo before... 19:55 sfan5 fluxionary: there is almost surely a way but the dissector we have doesn't do it 19:55 fluxionary oh right, the "proxy" 19:55 erlehmann fluxionary, yes it is used for this https://github.com/OysterityAnarchy/mt-netopt-proxy 19:56 fluxionary sfan: yeah, i've seen other things do that in wireshark, but i've never written one myself 19:56 erlehmann makes minetest go brrrr 19:57 erlehmann i think i understand now how the proxy reduces inventory chatter. it sends “keep” instead of huge items https://github.com/OysterityAnarchy/mt-netopt-proxy/blob/master/proxy.go#LC150 19:58 erlehmann but why does minetest proper not do this? 20:07 fluxionary hm. getting it to run isn't hard (never used go before), but how do i get it to ... tell me anything interesting? 20:11 erlehmann add some printf debugging ig? 20:12 fluxionary fair suggestion 20:34 mazes_83 is there a way to allow 5.4 client from 5.5 server, sorry first time this problem occurs for me. I already sercher a bit (not so long though) 20:36 erlehmann mazes_83 what exactly happens if you try it? 20:36 mazes_83 A mismatched client tried to connect from n.n.n.n proto_max=39 20:37 sfan5 did you enable strict_protocol_version_checking? 20:38 mazes_83 oh yes, that's it 20:45 mazes_83 sorry for the noise, thanks for the help 21:01 lagash I'm trying to find a mod with a "mega block" where you place it and then, perhaps after clicking it again or something, it "grows" into some sort of structure. Any ideas? 21:05 lagash Like a house, portal, etc. And by grow I mean more instant than slow plant growth. 21:09 erlehmann lagash technically, mineclone5 mushrooms lol 21:09 erlehmann i think they are placed like that 21:10 MTDiscord Or any tree saplings for that matter? 21:10 erlehmann also mineclonia villages on the cora-production branch 21:10 erlehmann turns out village spawning *inside* the mapgen is super slow because it tries to repair mapgen griefing 21:10 erlehmann thus overwriting each mapblock up to 8 times 21:10 erlehmann but once you place only a village structure block which unpacks itself at the earliest possible moment, bazingo! 21:11 MTDiscord I might be able to help if you need help with the mt go pkg, fluxionary 21:11 erlehmann if the mapgen griefs it, no village for you 21:11 Guest30 Hi 21:11 erlehmann j45 is your cursed mt go project published already? 21:11 fluxionary j45: i got it built, it just didn't do much out of the box 21:11 MTDiscord Yes, it is more of an api 21:11 erlehmann j45 has built a cursed thing 21:12 MTDiscord How is it cursed? 21:12 erlehmann never intended ^^ 21:12 erlehmann well i like it 21:12 erlehmann but is it published? 21:12 Guest30 guys, if i build minetest from source i can download minetest-game in game menu? 21:12 sfan5 yes 21:12 Guest30 Okay 21:13 Guest30 Thanks 21:13 MTDiscord Erleh: which project? Chat logger is but the other project i have temporarily paused and is in a private repo 21:13 erlehmann yes give mt chat 21:14 erlehmann and WIP for the other project :> 21:14 erlehmann release early, release often etc. pp. 21:14 MTDiscord mt_chat is the one in the private repo and i dont want to release it yet 21:14 MTDiscord The chat logger is public 21:15 guest3456 lol I just browsed the minetest_docs repo a bit 21:15 guest3456 minetest devs seem to disagree sometimes 21:15 guest3456 https://github.com/minetest/minetest_docs/blob/master/HOWTO.adoc 21:16 guest3456 quote 21:16 guest3456 Technical Jargon Saturation 21:16 guest3456 Avoid too much technical detail for things that are unimportant, implied, or explained soon after. 21:16 guest3456 BAD: 21:16 guest3456 The ThisObject metatable provides an OOP-like utility for processing the index mathematics of a ThatObject. 21:16 guest3456 This has way too much implementation detail and unnecessary technical terms. 21:16 guest3456 and then 21:16 guest3456 https://github.com/minetest/minetest_docs/blob/master/doc/VoxelArea.adoc 21:16 guest3456 VoxelArea 21:16 guest3456 The VoxelArea metatable provides an OOP-like utility for dealing with LuaVoxelManip (specifically, for doing the index math). 21:21 erlehmann how to create nan instead of math.sqrt(-1) 21:21 erlehmann i mean it creates -nan here 21:21 erlehmann but i really just need a quick nan 21:22 MTDiscord I think 1/0 got a funky number but i cant remember what 21:22 Hawk777 0 ÷ 0 is the usual NaN AFAIK 21:22 erlehmann it's inf 21:22 Hawk777 1 ÷ 0 is infinity 21:22 erlehmann oh 0/0 is a shorter -nan thx 21:22 erlehmann lol 22:15 erlehmann i think minetest does not handle running out of memory well. it seems random values in lua become nil? 22:51 MTDiscord guest3456: I wrote the VoxelArea docs and @GreenXenith basically wrote the guideline in response to that as he saw lots of room for improvement. Only has that improvement not happened yet. 22:52 MTDiscord erlehmann: random values become nil? that shouldn't happen 22:52 MTDiscord and yes 0/0 is the usual, I prefer modlib.number.negative_nan for readability though lol 22:52 Guest345654 luatic: I deduced that from the git blame 22:52 Guest345654 it's a funny style of criticism tho 22:52 MTDiscord To be clear, I do agree with GX that it could be more user-friendly 22:55 erlehmann > Avoid too much technical detail for things that are […] implied 22:55 erlehmann welllllllllll 22:55 erlehmann usually things that are implied are what trips ppl up 22:56 MTDiscord But Guest345654, why don't you head over to #minetest-docs for chatter about the docs repo :) 22:56 Guest345654 heh, I was only cursorily browsing 22:57 Guest345654 have to peruse lots of other docs before I can add seriously to minetest_docs 22:59 MTDiscord erlehmann: Obviously obvious implications implied 22:59 MTDiscord Sorry, couldnt pass up the opportunity for that 23:00 MTDiscord Real answer: The section refers to heavy technical detail, where too much is more confusing than just implying it 23:01 MTDiscord Feel free to suggest better wording, PRs welcome 23:30 erlehmann has anyone made a mod with map markers? i have added map markers to maps in item frames. they were working in item frames from the beginning, but now they display the approx frame location. 23:31 erlehmann it looks like this https://mister-muffin.de/p/RBUU.jpg or this https://mister-muffin.de/p/k1Vr.jpg 23:38 MTDiscord so that's what you wanted to get avg texture colors for ;) 23:38 erlehmann luatic currently there exists a python script by fleckenstein, which samples all textures and writes the results to json 23:39 erlehmann but the problem is ofc that it does not know about other mods 23:39 MTDiscord bruh moment, using modlib I can do it in like 10 lines of code 23:39 erlehmann but at which COST 23:39 erlehmann i mean runtime 23:39 erlehmann if you give me the code, i benchmark it 23:40 MTDiscord The cost of reading and processing the textures once? 23:40 erlehmann the cost of reading and processing the textures every time at server startup 23:40 erlehmann because mods might have changed, textures might have changed 23:40 erlehmann etc. pp. 23:40 MTDiscord well, you could keep a cache somewhere in the world folder 23:40 erlehmann sounds like more than 10 lines suddenly, you know ;) 23:40 erlehmann so the thing is, i'd be happy to have it work perfectly 23:41 erlehmann but i have limited energyß 23:41 erlehmann so right now i continue using the json file 23:43 erlehmann luatic do you know about any other map mods btw? mcl_maps is a bit older, but the only one besides cartographer i know