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IRC log for #minetest, 2021-12-11

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01:32 kilbith I frequently report ywwv's posts on the forums since months and no perma ban has been enforced for this troll.
01:33 kilbith I want to say: *shame* on the moderation team who themselves an accomplice of ywwv for letting him trolling and annoying everyone
01:33 kilbith + make
01:35 kilbith we have tolerated paramat for too long and now it's ywwv who don't bring anything positive to this community
01:36 kilbith and then some people still manage to blame me for my supposedly "toxic" behavior
01:36 kilbith crazy...
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01:38 CrazyTeacher hello
01:39 CrazyTeacher I want to set up a minetest server for my class. Which version is recommended for this? stable or master
01:51 MTDiscord <Jonathon> ironically ywwv has been banned from basically ever other minetest platform but the forums
01:52 MTDiscord <Jonathon> banned/blocked
01:52 rubenwardy ywwv has been banned a few times on the forums already, for personal attacks
01:52 rubenwardy there's no rule against trolling
01:53 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Is there some reason why there isn't such a rule?
01:53 CrazyTeacher ???
01:53 kilbith so he continues and this shit keeps going
01:53 rubenwardy CrazyTeacher: stable
01:54 kilbith basically 99% of the communities enforce rules against trolling
01:54 MTDiscord <Jonathon> its also very ironic that gets gotten to the point that users on the forums have to warn others because of a lack of moderation
01:54 CrazyTeacher Okay :-)
01:54 kilbith I think rubenwardy is a coward
01:54 MTDiscord <Warr1024> If it's a "lack of rule" bug then who actually has the authority to fix it?
01:54 kilbith unless it's about to ban me
01:58 CrazyTeacher Then I have another question. On Github I only get the master when I enter "git clone --depth 1 https://github.com/minetest/minetest.git". How do I get to the stable and do I have to pay attention to something about the minetes game and "Irrlicht"?
02:01 MTDiscord <Warr1024> If you want all the branches then I'd remove the --depth 1 and pull the whole repo.  Then you can move around across versions freely.
02:01 MTDiscord <Warr1024> You don't need minetest_game to play minetest (you just need SOME game but you can find them on the Content tab once you get it running)
02:02 MTDiscord <Warr1024> you do need irrlicht if you want to build current/recent versions.
02:03 CrazyTeacher Yes, I have already had experience, but our school's guideline stipulates that the Mintest Game should be used. Adjustments should then be made via the modifications
02:08 CrazyTeacher "I'd remove the --depth 1 and pull the whole repo. Then you can move around across versions freely" How do I choose that then? I only know the procedure to start the server with the following command: "./bin/minetest --server" Which version would that be if I did this?
02:10 MTDiscord <Jonathon> git checkout branchname
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02:19 CrazyTeacher I rephrase the question: What do I have to enter in order to get the latest stable version with github? (And I pray to God that there will be an easy answer to that ^^)
02:21 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Are you sure you need to build it from source from github?
02:22 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I only build from source myself to run dev versions of the engine.  To just play, mod, etc. I use the one from FlatPak.
02:24 CrazyTeacher It worked out quite well with the dev, if I only knew how to get the stable in the same way, then I would be happy :-)
02:27 MTDiscord <Jonathon> you cloned correct? cd into the dir, then git checkout stable-5
02:27 MTDiscord <Jonathon> follow https://github.com/minetest/minetest/tree/stable-5 readme as build process changed from 5.4.* to 5.5-dev
02:28 CrazyTeacher Ah okay, I think I figured it out myself: "wget https://github.com/minetest/minetest/archive/refs/heads/stable-5.zip" Do I have the current stable?
02:29 MTDiscord <Jonathon> if that downloads the src, than yeah
02:29 CrazyTeacher src?
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02:34 MTDiscord <Warr1024> yes, I think that should be correct
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02:58 CrazyTeacher Do I even need "IrrlichtMt" on the server or is that only important for the client?
03:02 MTDiscord <Jonathon> for latest stable? no
03:02 MTDiscord <Jonathon> and if you compile just the server, you dont need irrlichtmt
03:03 CrazyTeacher Ok, THANK YOU :-)
03:05 MTDiscord <Jonathon> cmake . -DRUN_IN_PLACE=TRUE -DBUILD_SERVER=TRUE -DBUILD_CLIENT=FALSE
03:05 MTDiscord <Jonathon> then the make nproc command
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15:30 hlqkj Why didn't I had a teacher like you! :)
15:36 MTDiscord <luatic> kilbith: keep in mind you have been tolerated as well
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15:44 erlehmann i find ywwv exceedingly funny
15:44 erlehmann at times
15:45 erlehmann many posts read lke a markov chain or like the ramblings of templeOS guy
15:45 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I can see why it might be funny but I just can't get past the intense cringe factor
15:46 erlehmann <kilbith> I think rubenwardy is a coward
15:46 erlehmann i think kilbith is arrogant
15:46 erlehmann :D
15:47 erlehmann also i think from all people involved with minetest, rubenwardy is one of the nicest
15:47 erlehmann but i may be biased because i like the book!
15:49 erlehmann Warr1024 in an irc channel i made a bot that kickbanned people if 30% of ppl with voting rights (but at least 3 ppl) wanted them gone. rationale: if you manage to piss of a third of the regulars, maybe you should go elsewhere.
15:49 erlehmann you got voting rights 180 seconds after first saying something (so ppl couldn't join en masse and kickban everyone)
15:51 erlehmann Warr1024 is the intense cringe factor because it reads like GPT-2 or because you think the person must be stupid?
15:54 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Stupid?  No.  I suspect they have some kind of other issue, though I'm no expert and couldn't say exactly what.  I had suspected a language barrier, but they've insisted basically that not only is their English perfectly fine, but that it's everyone else who's wrong.
15:55 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Also, I've never seen anything from any of the GPT series AI that had such a thorough lack of humility or self-awareness.
15:56 erlehmann i think people who speak google translate english usually are less funny
15:56 erlehmann to me
15:56 erlehmann minetest is great at connecting different cultures btw
15:57 erlehmann i used google translate when i met a player from brazil
15:57 erlehmann we built a base together in a bugged mapchunk
15:57 erlehmann basically a big 80x80x80 stone cube in the sky
15:59 erlehmann btw, i think i have solved the mystery of the underground stone clouds
15:59 erlehmann basically, there seems to exist a mapgen race condition in which a thin slice of map will be stone
16:00 erlehmann and usually it is not noticeable, because a) stone, underground b) it is affected by cavegen
16:00 erlehmann but if your game has underground areas that should be free of anything, well …
16:00 macaw erlehmann: Good job! Sound like a difficult one to find.
16:01 erlehmann then you sometimes get rectangular sheets of stone that can be like 20 wide and 200 long
16:01 erlehmann basically i have only seen it in mineclone2 and mineclonia, because those store their nether and end dimensions underground
16:02 MTDiscord <Warr1024> OIC, I was wondering how you could tell, like maybe absence of ores ... but yeah, having a dimension down there would do it :-D
16:02 erlehmann i am not sure why it is only a thin slice though. from my understanding it should be a full cube, like the bugged mapblock in which we built the base
16:03 erlehmann Warr1024 i think you should be able to find a stone cloud under the void in mineclonia, if you start it with the seed “slime” and starve minetest of CPU resources
16:03 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Actually makes me think about how funny it is when people talk about the need to add static typing to dynamic languages like Lua or JS because otherwise you end up with all these wrong-type bugs ... but meanwhile like 95% of the bugs I struggle with are caused by race conditions.
16:04 erlehmann it will output a message that it failed to grab a mapblock it just generated at some point i think
16:04 erlehmann i mean in the void under the overworld
16:06 erlehmann macaw my best achievement is still exploding a tnt in a block that has not fully generated. you have to lag the game a lot for that.
16:07 erlehmann Warr1024 do you have and easter eggs btw?
16:09 erlehmann i am making christmas chests right now
16:09 erlehmann because the mod can use os.time lol
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16:18 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I used to have easter eggs but I removed them.
16:18 MTDiscord <Warr1024> The one I can recall was changing the default player skin for certain holidays.
16:19 erlehmann to what?
16:19 erlehmann father christmas?
16:19 erlehmann easter bunny?
16:20 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I think I had a pumpkin shirt for halloween, a clown suit for april fools, I can't remember.  I didn't do major religious holidays.
16:20 erlehmann change default player skin to rachel bloom for hannukah
16:20 erlehmann a clown suit for april fools lol
16:20 erlehmann oh that reminds me to put in the aprils fools content early enough that i forget about it
16:21 erlehmann so i can enjoy it myself
16:21 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I have almost always missed april first deadlines
16:21 MTDiscord <Warr1024> The one time I actually made something in time for it was nc_stairs
16:24 erlehmann what was it
16:24 erlehmann Warr1024 this is how i reskin the chests https://git.minetest.land/Mineclonia/Mineclonia/pulls/212/files
16:24 erlehmann ima go test it now
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16:41 rubenwardy In weakly typed languages, the most common bugs I get are misspelled variable/function names
16:41 rubenwardy Typing allows the IDE to be more useful, and also allows for compile time checking
16:42 rubenwardy TypeScript and VSCode work very well together
16:42 rubenwardy If you're getting race conditions, then I have no idea what you're doing
16:47 erlehmann threading?
16:48 erlehmann misspelled variables are what i hate most about lua
16:48 erlehmann you get a nil! you get a nil! and you get a nil!
16:50 MTDiscord <luatic> The "misspelled variables" thing is trivial to solve with linting, no need for typing at all
16:50 MTDiscord <luatic> You just have to define standards for environmental variables
16:51 MTDiscord <luatic> Luacheck is commonly used; globals to be read or written to are then defined in .luacheckrc
16:52 MTDiscord <luatic> At some point I had a dirty JS script when I was cleaning modlib up which did a similar job, but took all globals in a global localization line for granted and worked properly with my environments
16:52 erlehmann luatic in python any typechecking will necessarily figure out a mistyped variable name
16:53 MTDiscord <luatic> Adding require to MT instead of relying on the global environment would be a step in the right direction in that regard, as it pretty much forces you to localize whatever you use.
16:53 erlehmann because the typechecker will obviously not be able to get the value
16:53 MTDiscord <luatic> erlehmann: That's because Lua has way more powerful environmental variables
16:53 MTDiscord <luatic> The environment is a table in Lua
16:53 erlehmann everything in lua is a table lol
16:53 erlehmann except floats
16:53 erlehmann and strings madbe
16:53 MTDiscord <luatic> and userdata
16:54 MTDiscord <luatic> and booleans
16:54 MTDiscord <luatic> and functions
16:54 erlehmann what is userdata even
16:54 MTDiscord <luatic> C stuff
16:54 erlehmann ewww
16:54 MTDiscord <luatic> ObjRef in MT for instance
16:55 MTDiscord <luatic> File handles obtained through io.open are userdata as well
16:55 erlehmann i have a theory regarding texture performance
16:55 MTDiscord <luatic> That is?
16:55 erlehmann that minetest is needlessly slow, but i have to test it
17:02 MTDiscord <luatic> Rule 11: Minetest is almost always needlessly slow.
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17:09 erlehmann well if my theory is correct i'll laugh a bit
17:09 erlehmann and tell you the details
17:09 erlehmann if not, i'll … bury it i guess. ha! :D
17:10 erlehmann meanwhile, i would not have guessed that reskinning the chests to presents would teach me so much about how cursed chest entity code can be
17:15 MTDiscord <exe_virus> ;)
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17:19 erlehmann btw, mineclonia has recently gone from 10kb per player per second to about 50 to 125 bytes per player per second traffic
17:19 erlehmann for idling in a singlenode world
17:19 erlehmann the culprit was playerplus
17:20 erlehmann which sends bone positions all the time … but the engine seems to subtly change bone positions all the time!
17:22 specing lol
17:25 MTDiscord <Warr1024> ruben: re "most common errors" that makes certain assumptions about the population; in my case, having an IDE with completion, along with careful scope control, helps me to avoid those pretty easily.
17:26 MTDiscord <Warr1024> As far as race conditions go, yeah, people tend to assume it requires some kind of preemptive multitasking, but you can get races just fine with single-threaded async event loop stuff too.  Any time you have sufficiently complex async task interdependency graphs, it's easy to miss a link in there and have something fire off before a dependency is finished.
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17:46 erlehmann i have noticed that a small hsv noise does wonders for making unicolor textures more palatable. any idea how to apply that using a texture modifier?
18:00 erlehmann Warr1024 i have been thinking about an aprils fools feature of mineclonia: on april first, when you punch a tree, you just hurt yourself instead of mining it.
18:00 erlehmann it's pretty stupid, but i like it. what do you think?
18:20 rubenwardy <luatic> The "misspelled variables" thing is trivial to solve with linting, no need for typing at all
18:20 rubenwardy Linters are more of a work around. They don't know about the structure of tables/dictionaries. Luacheck allows specifying the structure of globals, but not args and locals
18:21 rubenwardy Also, mistyped doesn't mean misspelt
18:22 rubenwardy <Warr1024> ruben: re "most common errors" that makes certain assumptions about the population; in my case, having an IDE with completion, along with careful scope control, helps me to avoid those pretty easily.
18:22 rubenwardy IDE completion doesn't work if the IDE doesn't know what it's looking at
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19:07 MTDiscord <luatic> rubenwardy: mistyped is something else, I'm aware
19:08 MTDiscord <luatic> I only consider environment variables and locals variables
19:08 MTDiscord <luatic> But granted, fields make this trickier
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19:34 MTDiscord <Warr1024> IDE completion can sometimes fail, but I just copy/paste to get around this.  Usually this only happens if I'm trying to access something shared from a different file, which should be a minority case anyway, for sanity's sake.
19:35 MTDiscord <Warr1024> If you accidentally mis-auto-complete something into a similar-looking but different name then you probably shouldn't have named things too similarly if they do different things to begin with.
19:36 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Ultimately there are no technological tools that completely eliminate the need for programmer carefulness, and you just pick your system based on the kind of carefulness you want required of you.
19:36 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Some things are more restrictive and thus less error prone, while other are more permissive and let you do what you want more quickly, at the cost of you accepting the risks.
19:38 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I suppose it's possible I run into "wrong name/type" issues more often than I think but they're just pretty trivial to fix so they blend into the background and don't occupy a lot of mindspace.
19:38 MTDiscord <Warr1024> On the other hand, when you try to do thing A then thing B, then thing B finishes before thing A does and you made thing C depend on B but forgot to depend on A, that's what often throws me for a loop.
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20:35 rubenwardy Warr1024: my point is that autocomplete often does suggest anything at all
20:35 rubenwardy especially when it's in a different file
20:36 rubenwardy type hints make IDEs so much more useful. They're also great for documenting expectations
20:36 rubenwardy the correct approach to "programmer carefulness" is to assume that the programmer will make mistakes
20:36 rubenwardy and they will make mistakes
20:36 rubenwardy this is why we have tools like unit testings, static analysis, and .... types
20:37 erlehmann and tools that come to you at runtime to tell you that your code actually didn't compile right
20:37 erlehmann (like ubsan or asan or tsan)
20:38 erlehmann rubenwardy, do you use python? if so, do you use mypy or another typechecker?
20:38 rubenwardy when I use python, I do
20:38 rubenwardy mypy isn't as good as typescript though, but it's a start
20:39 rubenwardy python type hinting is a non-intrusive type system i guess, whereas typescript is more intrusive
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21:17 kilbith Keep in mind that I started contributing to MT when you were literally… 8 years old 👶
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21:18 kilbith And yes, I am surely arrogant and you (plural) happen to be jealous
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21:36 erlehmann <kilbith> Keep in mind that I started contributing to MT when you were literally… 8 years old 👶
21:36 erlehmann lol
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21:44 rubenwardy did you make the Minetest logo when you were 8?!
21:45 rubenwardy or does he mean lmd
21:46 erlehmann i definitely wasn't 8 years old. but maybe to the superior taste of kilbith the logo looks like it was made by an 8 year old? :D
21:48 erlehmann or kilbith time traveled and contributed in the nineties
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21:49 kilbith Yeah I meant the young boy who turn around me like an annoying fly 😉
21:50 kilbith Not you elherman
21:52 rubenwardy did Minetest have a placeholder logo before the current one?
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