Minetest logo

IRC log for #minetest, 2021-08-27

| Channels | #minetest index | Today | | Google Search | Plaintext

All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:01 Extex joined #minetest
00:13 illwieckz joined #minetest
00:20 independent56 I have finally got a navigational sidebar for my rapidly growing server wiki. Should help navigation
00:44 detrout joined #minetest
00:51 detrout joined #minetest
01:09 jonadab rubenwardy:  Maybe have a look at this patch, which seems to have fixed the crash bugs for me, or at least the most common ones. https://termbin.com/amae
01:10 jonadab My lua skills are terrible, so feel free to view that as a starting point or whatever.
01:13 jonadab mazes_81: You also might be interested ^
01:14 jonadab Since you were expressing interest in the pipeworks autocrafter group: recipe support patch the other day; this one is meant to be applied after that one, to fix crashes.
01:16 Noclip[m] Which group do I need to add a node to so that it can only be destroyed in creative mode but not in survival?
01:16 Noclip[m] Is there group for it or would I need to make such a group myself?
01:19 detrout joined #minetest
01:27 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I believe last I checked neither NodeCore nor MTG had such a group.  NodeCore does have an admin item that can unconditionally pick up any node that can be pointed at; devtest is likely to have something very similar.
01:29 independent56 joined #minetest
01:29 jonadab I think you have to take account for all the different ways nodes can be destroyed in your game/modpack.
01:30 jonadab For example, if you have digtron, you have to make sure digtron can't remove it.
01:31 Noclip[m] Well, I mainly wanted to know if such a group already exists.
01:31 jonadab If you have TNT, you have to make sure TNT can't blow it up.
01:31 jonadab I don't think there's a generic "can't be destroyed in any way" group, no.
01:31 Noclip[m] As it doesn't exist I will probably just add it to another group.
01:32 jonadab I assume you either don't have WorldEdit or would consider it equivalent to creative mode.  Otherwise, you'd have to look at that too.
01:32 jonadab And I don't even know if it's possible for a node to block we.
01:32 MTDiscord <Warr1024> In NodeCore nodes should be indestructible if they don't have any dig groups, and mods that fail to respect that are basically bugged.
01:33 MTDiscord <Warr1024> World edit would fall under the "removed by admin" case tho
01:33 jonadab Fair.
01:33 jonadab Personally I consider WE tantamount to creative.
01:34 jonadab It's amazingly useful for testing changes to mods, though.
01:34 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Basically each game can establish conventions around destructibility, and mods are technically always able to bypass those.. m
01:34 jonadab Yeah, you really have to know which mods you have.
01:34 Noclip[m] I added a node in MTG and because I didn't add it to a dig group it's indestructible, too. So I wondered if there would be a group that makes it only destructable for creative mode. But it's not really important in the long run, I'm just playing around a bit.
01:35 jonadab Oh, just add a type of tool that has no crafting recipe, and can remove the node.
01:35 jonadab Then it requires creative or admin privs (like /give)
01:35 MTDiscord <Warr1024> You could create a tool only creative mode players could access with a custom group, or you could just add an on_punch callback that checks for creative mode privs or something... Lots of ways, no really clear convention I know of.
01:36 jonadab Or that, yeah.
01:36 jonadab Though I think checking for creative mode requires 5.x
01:37 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Could be ... but pre-5.x MT is basically pretty dead here now ... using it at all could really be considered like a fork by this point, it's diverged so much.
01:38 MTDiscord <Warr1024> It's been so long since I dropped all 0.4.x support for all my stuff...
01:40 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Actually, creative mode being a 5.x thing is a builtin thing, not an engine thing, right?  That would mean games still have the power to manage that themselves.
01:41 detrout joined #minetest
01:43 Noclip[m] I think creative mode isn't implemented in the engine, yea.
01:44 Noclip[m] The engine just provides a checkbox in the menu to select creative mode if available.
01:44 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Ripping it out for me only required overriding one function in builtin, and finding it accidentally enabled only actually affected one thing, so I suspect it's really mostly in builtin ...
01:45 MTDiscord <Warr1024> In 5.5 that checkbox can be hidden 🎉
01:45 Noclip[m] Cool!
01:45 MTDiscord <Warr1024> But adding new checkboxes for different game features is still in the whiteboarding phase...
01:46 Noclip[m] Nahh, I don't like the checkbox thing anyways.
01:46 Noclip[m] That's not how you should configure game based stuff!
01:46 Noclip[m] game based stuff should be configured through privs and commands.
01:48 Noclip[m] One serious issue with the creative and damage checkboxes is that it makes both settings a global thing and can only be changed on server restart.
01:49 Noclip[m] Unlike Minecraft you cannot set damage and creative mode per player and you can't change it while the game is running.
01:49 Noclip[m] Of course as a dev you can solve that issue through modding but that shouldn't be needed in the first place.
01:51 Noclip[m] There should be a priv and a command to change creative and damage on a running server per player.
01:57 Hawk777 joined #minetest
01:58 jonadab game-based stuff should be configured through minetest.conf mainly, with privs and commands secondarily.
01:59 jonadab But yes, anything you need to change on a per-player basis obviously should be a priv.
02:00 Noclip[m] Everything that the user might want to configure while the game is running should be configurable through privs and commands.
02:01 Noclip[m] jonadab: Privs aren't always enough: You might not want to give a player creative but instead give them access to a command which they can then use to change their mode when ever they like to do so.
02:01 jonadab Noclip[m]: So you have a command that only works if you have a given priv.
02:01 jonadab Like /teleport
02:01 Noclip[m] Exactly
02:02 Noclip[m] Or you use two privs where on privs allows them to change the other priv.
02:02 jonadab I suppose.
02:02 Noclip[m] Or is this not possible?
02:03 jonadab Probably?
02:03 Noclip[m] It should at least be possible through a new command but that would kind of defeat the purpose of a second priv.
02:04 riff-IRC joined #minetest
02:18 jonadab I mean, make the initial priv allow using a key binding to toggle something, like fly does.
02:20 detrout joined #minetest
02:20 MTDiscord <Warr1024> The problem with configuring things in minetest.conf is that there's only one for all worlds, and SP is a thing.  General world-specific config would help a lot.
02:20 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I think there are proposals out there to clean up some config handling stuff like that, but I forget specifics.
02:25 Noclip[m] Yea, that's another big issue with it.
02:26 queria joined #minetest
02:26 Noclip[m] As we don't have world-specific configs yet I'd say mod and game makers should avoid using minetest.conf as much as they can.
02:27 Noclip[m] Either use commands and privs for configuration or read configs from a file within the world folder.
02:30 queria joined #minetest
02:31 MTDiscord <Warr1024> minetest.conf stuff can be okay for play style tweaks, or emergency things that you might only use temporarily, or things only relevant to dedicated servers that pretty much always have their own config.
02:32 detrout joined #minetest
02:32 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Other than that, player or mod meta is a good place to store in-game state stuff that doesn't already fit privs.
02:56 detrout joined #minetest
03:06 detrout joined #minetest
03:31 detrout joined #minetest
04:00 MTDiscord joined #minetest
04:16 Alias joined #minetest
05:01 riff-IRC joined #minetest
05:33 reumeth joined #minetest
06:09 CWz joined #minetest
06:14 Flabb joined #minetest
06:47 riff-IRC joined #minetest
07:57 frostsnow joined #minetest
08:00 simon816 joined #minetest
08:01 specing_ joined #minetest
08:08 absurb joined #minetest
08:18 independent56 joined #minetest
08:21 independent56 joined #minetest
08:27 independent56 joined #minetest
08:28 independent56 joined #minetest
08:36 erlehmann <Noclip[m]> Which group do I need to add a node to so that it can only be destroyed in creative mode but not in survival?
08:36 erlehmann haha bedrock destruction goes brrrrrr
09:05 mdk joined #minetest
09:19 MinetestBot [git] nerzhul -> minetest/minetest: Add debian 11 to Gitlab-CI (#11571) a7188bd https://git.io/JEzUq (2021-08-27T09:19:15Z)
09:45 Talkless joined #minetest
10:02 Tusha joined #minetest
10:04 calcul0n_ joined #minetest
10:11 independent56 joined #minetest
10:15 independent56 joined #minetest
10:37 Tusha joined #minetest
10:38 independent56 joined #minetest
10:44 independent56 joined #minetest
10:49 Guest40 joined #minetest
10:59 calcul0n__ joined #minetest
11:04 independent56 Lets say someone SSH'd into my server and did a rm -r ~ as a joke. I was not aware, nor did i permiss this acion. Would this be legal ground for some punishment under the computer misue act?
11:05 independent56 it is unauthorised access and destroys valuble data
11:06 Tusha I would say that depending where you live, it could be at least a civil illicit act
11:07 independent56 I live in the uk, thus my mention of the computer misuse act. What laws does the criminal follow? do they get imprisioned by britishofficers or law or officers of law of their home country or officers of law of the country they're in>
11:07 Tusha As long as you can give evidence to the authorities and let them investigate the case, and that they want to take it seriously, but as far as I know, getting into other's computer wihout permission usually can be considered a crime
11:08 Tusha It all depends from where the attack came from
11:08 Tusha If it is international maybe interpol can act
11:08 Tusha All depends on how the authorities treat the case though
11:09 independent56 Is reading my sister's browsing history considered a crime? it facilitates unauthorised access.
11:10 Tusha Again, I guess it would depend on the country, doesn't the uk has a site  with info about those things? I would say it could constitute a privacy attack, if the user didn't had permission to do
11:11 Tusha to do so*, although it can always be interpreted by a lawyer, like if she left the computer on and logged-in, that could imply a granted permission
11:12 independent56 it does
11:12 Tusha But I would consult an expert, all this is comes from police-based series and I doubt it can hold to real-life cases
11:12 independent56 ha
11:13 independent56 "it does" refer to the governemnt having a site
11:13 Tusha I see, I would ask there then, maybe they can guide you
11:13 independent56 https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1990/18/crossheading/computer-misuse-offences
11:13 independent56 I have a unambiguous text here
11:14 Tusha All I know about UK law is that they don't let you have strong encryption, which I feel is lame
11:16 independent56 Citation needed
11:19 Tusha Indeed, I may have understood it, can't find where I found it, but it seems more like a government intention and not actual law, for what I'm finding so far
11:22 Tusha https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encryption_ban_proposal_in_the_United_Kingdom
11:24 Tusha https://techcrunch.com/2021/06/30/uk-tells-messaging-apps-not-to-use-e2e-encryption-for-kids-accounts
11:24 Tusha Can't find the actual place where I saw that info in the first place, sadly
11:36 Guest5224 joined #minetest
11:36 independent56 hmm
11:37 independent56 it hasn't acted yet. until protonmail stops  working,it hasn't
11:37 independent56 It's a horrible idea, and ideas  like thisis why we use democracies.
11:41 Tusha Indeed
11:41 Tusha And yeah, reading this: https://www.gp-digital.org/world-map-of-encryption/ I rememered what I read
11:42 Tusha It is that if you have evidence encripted, and it makes you guilty, you are forced by law to unencrypt it to the authorities
11:43 longerstaff13 joined #minetest
11:43 Tusha Maybe I could have phrased it better, but the thing is, you must de-crypt all info if asked by law, even if doing so creates evidence against you
11:43 independent56 Well, my evidence will be in the form of system logs, so i can see why an attacker would like to remove them.
11:44 Guest5224 wiki.minetest.net SEC_ERROR_EXPIRED_CERTIFICATE 2021-08-11
11:44 Tusha I guess this is why veracrypt has plausible denyability which makes you be able to have dual partitions in the file depending on password given
11:44 Tusha They got deleted?
11:45 Tusha There are some linux distros that let you recover files though
11:45 independent56 Guest5224, yeah cirtificate has been expired for months and nobody has fixed it.
11:45 independent56 i hope there is software  for that, as i use the fringe bodhi linux
11:46 independent56 And they aren't deleted. they are a tapestry of my server.
11:46 Tusha Who could fix it? I mean, anyone with admin access to the web server could create a cronjob with a certbot nowdays, even I managed to do that xD...
11:46 Guest5224 letsencrypt is widely used for this. https://letsencrypt.org/
11:47 sfan5 independent56: 2021-08-11 is less than three weeks ago
11:47 Tusha independent56 Just unmount the drive and mount in read only so it isn't altered and files aren't overwritten
11:47 sfan5 in any case we're aware on it and a fix is being worked on
11:48 independent56 sfan5, Feels like months
11:48 independent56 Tusha, good idea.
11:48 independent56 I also create daily backups copied to my main computer
11:49 Tusha Well, you may then just restore the backup and save the hassle of recovering the data, which can be a pita
11:49 Tusha sfan5 nice to know you are working on it :)
11:50 independent56 That's what the backups are for. I hope i can get a cut of the fine if they get such a low punishment.
11:51 Tusha Just keep everything untouched if you plan to ask for compensation, as they may need the evidence
11:52 independent56 yeah, but how do i serve the evidence? ssh access?
11:52 Tusha Dang can't find the article that introduced me to ddrescue
11:52 independent56 entire computer transfer?
11:52 Tusha Maybe they need physical access to the harddrive
11:52 Tusha I don't know as I never saw how law operates in those cases
11:53 Tusha Just common sense kicking-in about having stuff as untampered as possible
11:53 independent56 ah yeah
11:53 Tusha So you can't be accused of manipulating it
11:54 independent56 it would be impossible to login with a removed home directory ( i oncedid that on a vm and it was funny)
11:54 sfan5 Tusha: well not literally me, I don't host the wiki
11:55 Tusha independent56, Interesting, never tried that
11:56 independent56 In actuality, i used the same hardware as the server, but it was a minimal installtion, meant for writing on a usb. So my data was fine, the computer wasn't. Ihad to reinstall bodhi
11:58 proller joined #minetest
12:00 Tusha I think there are ways to rebuild the home directory, from adduser I think (or however the command is called)
12:03 Tusha If you want forensic distros (just searched now) last I used for data recovery was CAINE, although it is a bit bloated, also ParrotOS should help
12:21 sfan5 By some unscientific log parsing I have determined that most of the Minetest players who use Windows are on Windows 10 20H1 (65%)
12:21 sfan5 second biggest group is on Windows 7 SP1 (which is EOL), third biggest on Windows 10 19H1 (which is also EOL)
12:22 Tusha I win (no pun intended) as I'm in 1607
12:22 Tusha win10 that is
12:22 sfan5 that's the 9th largest group
12:27 independent56 joined #minetest
12:33 erlehmann independent56 regarding the computer misuse act, you should know that what will be considered a crime by the authorities usually depends on who does it. it is not just about the letter of the law, but about who is inconvenienced.
12:33 independent56 oh god... what about me? how would i be treated?
12:34 erlehmann independent56 if a police person does something that *might* be seen as a crime, they are much less likely to be punished than, say, a journalist or some random person not in a position of power.
12:35 erlehmann independent56 on the contrary, normal people can be punished for stuff that might not even be reasonably considered a crime if they inconvenience the authorities.
12:36 independent56 joined #minetest
12:38 erlehmann independent56 for specific legal advice i would always advise you to ask a lawyer. not only are they professionals, usually lawyer-client communication is protected (in theory) by the law as well.
12:39 independent56 oh
12:39 independent56 well crap
12:40 erlehmann only trust your fists, police will never help you!
12:40 erlehmann (that's a quote from a video game)
12:42 erlehmann https://nitter.snopyta.org/Foone/status/1002735322948440064#m
12:43 erlehmann nah, it's not a quote from a video game after all
12:59 kamdard joined #minetest
13:39 MTDiscord <MisterE> why does this cause a segfault?
13:39 MTDiscord <MisterE> -- on_place = function(itemstack, placer, pointed_thing)     --     if pointed_thing.type == "node" then     --             local pos = pointed_thing.above     --             minetest.set_node(pos , {name="mesewars:stone"})     --             local inv = placer:get_inventory()     --             inv:remove_item("main", "mesewars:stone")     --     end     -- end,     -- on_dig = function(pos, node, digger)     --     local wielded = digger
13:39 MTDiscord and digger:get_wielded_item()     --     local drops = minetest.get_node_drops(node, wielded and wielded:get_name())     --     minetest.handle_node_drops(pos, drops, digger)     --     minetest.dig_node(pos)     -- end,
13:40 MTDiscord <MisterE> the on_dig
13:41 sfan5 doesn't dig_node call on_dig itself?
13:42 MTDiscord <MisterE> I want to bypass protection
13:42 MTDiscord <MisterE> I guess I should do that by modifying minetest.is_protected
13:43 sfan5 uh what
13:43 sfan5 just call remove_node?!
13:44 MTDiscord <MisterE> I also want to give the player the node
13:44 MTDiscord <MisterE> oh, instead of dignode
13:50 sfan5 on_dig does not get called when protection kicks in
13:50 sfan5 so your approach is indeed wrong
13:53 Splyncryth_ joined #minetest
13:54 Fixer joined #minetest
13:54 olliy1or joined #minetest
14:03 Verticen joined #minetest
14:47 queria joined #minetest
14:56 Guest71 joined #minetest
14:59 Extex joined #minetest
15:02 Noclip[m] independent56: Your IT security shouldn't rely on law enforcement, that's a very dumb strategy to begin with!
15:03 independent56 Ha, yeah, probably
15:06 Noclip[m] You probably want to be able to get full root access through SSH so sandboxing isn't really an option here. Make sure that SSH itself is setup in a very secure way.
15:06 Noclip[m] If possible use only public key login and disable password based login in the SSH config.
15:08 independent56 joined #minetest
15:09 Noclip[m] independent56: Those are my default config optimizations for the SSH server:... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/09b0adddca56e9fac88c0b8f5b08f67e8cfccb86)
15:10 Noclip[m] Make sure that you setup public key authentication before you make those changes otherwise you won't be able to login to your server through ssh anymore!
15:10 independent56 thanks.... >:-)
15:11 longerstaff13 joined #minetest
15:11 independent56 wait why i get error "invalid user"?
15:12 independent56 joined #minetest
15:12 Noclip[m] independent56: Also setup a firewall and allow incoming traffic only for those ports where you really need it. (For example the ports for ssh and minetest.)
15:13 Noclip[m] independent56: "wait why i get error "invalid user"?"
15:13 Noclip[m] -> Not sure what you did there.
15:14 Noclip[m] Because of "PermitRootLogin no" you cannot login as root anymore. You will need to first login to another user and then elevate privs from within that user account.
15:15 independent56 hmm
15:15 independent56 andwhat i did was joking
15:15 independent56 (pronounced "joe-king")
15:16 Guest71 left #minetest
15:17 Hawk777 joined #minetest
15:18 Noclip[m] independent56: Also do not run the minetest server with root privs, it really doesn't need them!
15:18 independent56 i never do
15:18 independent56 (i never did)
15:19 Noclip[m] Good! If you want some additional security for the mintest server you should run it either inside a sandbox or a virtual machine.
15:20 Noclip[m] Unless your server has a lot of unneeded power a virtual machine is probably a bit overkill.
15:20 Noclip[m] A sandbox on the other hand is less secure but has pretty much no overhead at all so you won't lose any performance.
15:22 Noclip[m] independent56: For sandboxing you could use firejail, bubblewrap or minijail.
15:22 independent56 too much effort
15:22 independent56 for such a weak thing.
15:26 Noclip[m] independent56: Well if someone finds a zero-day exploit in minetest they might be able to run arbitrary code as the user which started the minetest server. Depending on your security setup they might be able to work their way up to root then. With root they would then have full control over the operating system.
15:26 independent56 ahrgh!
15:27 independent56 and that's why backup is so important
15:27 Noclip[m] It wouldn't surprise me if finding such a zero-day in minetest would be fairly easy.
15:30 Noclip[m] independent56: Is there any sensitive/private data on your server which could get you in trouble if someone would publish it?
15:31 independent56 erm... give me some examples to jog my memeory. I certainly do not keep my 0x volumes, exhaustive reruns of my life, showing off my absolute shittiness.
15:31 independent56 ... on the server
15:31 Noclip[m] Backups do not protect you against data theft!
15:34 MinetestBot [git] sfan5 -> minetest/minetestmapper: Modernize CMake build script 8b563f4 https://git.io/JEggc (2021-08-27T15:30:42Z)
15:34 MinetestBot [git] sfan5 -> minetest/minetestmapper: Switch from Travis-CI to Github Actions f26070e https://git.io/JEggW (2021-08-27T14:56:24Z)
15:34 Noclip[m] independent56: Examples for sensitive data would be for example pictures of yourself or your family, data that can be used to identify you or official documents like your ID, drivers license or certificates.
15:35 independent56 Oh yeah, that. Darn... i will need to take a minute to think.
15:36 Noclip[m] Especially those official documents would be a serious threat as they can be used for identity theft!
15:38 Noclip[m] independent56: You should delete any sensitive data from the server which doesn't need to be there. (Of course you should do that in such a way that it can't be recovered anymore.)
15:38 independent56 90% sure there is no sensitive information
15:39 independent56 Not even my name, Vitra is over there
15:40 Noclip[m] independent56: You should check that just to be sure. If there is really no sensitive data on the server then relying on backups might be okay.
15:41 independent56 But i might as well put my name on the wiki, for vertification purposes
15:41 Noclip[m] (Of course you should have backups anyways, you often just need some additional protections.)
15:42 Noclip[m] independent56: That's your decision. If it's just for verification you could probably use a public key instead.
15:42 independent56 hmm
15:44 Noclip[m] As long as you don't lose the private key and keep it secret that should actually be the best verification method available today.
15:44 independent56 hmm
15:47 Noclip[m] independent56: public key cryptography seems to be uncrackable without quantum computers from the future.
15:48 independent56 i mean like on other parts of the web "oh yeah, vitra made an account here, he owns his own wiki"
15:48 Noclip[m] "he owns his own wiki" lul
15:50 Noclip[m] independent56: You could make a new account on a platform and then sign a message with your private key to prove that the message is from you.
15:52 independent56 I might as well make fake personal details
15:52 independent56 and fake incriminating evidence.
15:52 independent56 To deter deeper efforts
15:54 Noclip[m] Unlike public key cryptography those fake details could be faked again by others fairly easy.
15:54 Noclip[m] And isn't the point of verification that no one can fake it?
15:55 independent56 meh
16:06 Noclip[m] I will probably be offline for now, bye.
16:13 Hawk777 Hmm, the problem with the “verify via signed message” thing is that, if you lose the private key, you can’t verify; if you verify via personal details, you likely still have those. And if you say, well, back up your private key, I say, if you have good backups, you won’t lose the original password that you were trying to recover anyway, because you’ll back up your machine regularly (with your password manager database on
16:13 Hawk777 and have a way to access those backups later.
16:27 garywhite joined #minetest
16:27 garywhite joined #minetest
16:46 Verticen joined #minetest
17:08 Noclip[m] Hawk777: Normal passwords are far easier to steal and fake than a private key.
17:08 independent56 i do. I copy them using SCP to my main every day
17:08 independent56 It really helps
17:10 Hawk777 It depends on what your goal is. If you’re talking about using private keys instead of passwords as an everyday login system, great; they are definitely superior in lots of ways (but also useless for most services, since when’s the last time you saw a website that uses a private key to log in? really only useful for SSH and a few other things). If you’re talking about using them as an account recovery mechanism, for when you
17:10 Hawk777 your normal credentials, that’s what I was talking about—might as well just back up your passwords instead of your private key, and then you won’t lose them in the first place.
17:10 Noclip[m] Hawk777: And if you use something like a hardware key with fido to store and use your private key then stealing them should be pretty much impossible without also stealing the hardware key as the private key should never leave the hardware key.
17:11 Hawk777 This is true, if you have one of those, though the question then becomes, what do you do when the hardware breaks? You obviously can’t have backed up the key because the point is that it’s nonexportable.
17:13 Tusha Using a disposable usb extension could help with that, saving wearing from the hardware key
17:13 Hawk777 Also, while avoiding credential theft is a nice property, it would be a good idea not to rely on it too much. After all, if I want to gain long-term access to your server (for example), I don’t have to steal your SSH private key. Assuming I’ve already broken into your desktop but I can’t access your private key (i.e. the security perimeter that the hardware key provides), I just wait until you SSH into your server, create a s
17:13 Hawk777 d terminal session in the existing SSH connection, and use it to add my own key to your authorized_keys file. How often do you check that for extra lines being mysteriously added to it?
17:14 Noclip[m] Hawk777: When I came up with public key cryptography I actually wasn't talking about website logins at all. I was talking about a method to prove your identity to other humans and not to a server. For server logins you have to rely of course on what the server offers you as login options.
17:14 Hawk777 Oh yeah, it’s fine there.
17:15 Hawk777 Tusha: Helps with some problems, but doesn’t really help if a lightning bolt comes through the USB cable and into the key, or if you drop it down a sewer grate, or if you get hit by a car and it’s in your pocket and gets crushed, or whatever. I’m still uncomfortable with critical things that can’t be backed up at all.
17:16 Tusha Yeah non-predictable damage is still something to worry about Hawk777
17:17 Hawk777 Sadly, like everything, we can’t have our cake and eat it too. Either you make it really secure but vulnerable to loss, or you make it very redundantly backed up but easier to steal.
17:17 Tusha The further thing I saw about backups was converting bineries to base64 and generate high failsafe qr codes and print them to backup the data
17:17 Tusha binaries*
17:19 Noclip[m] If for example I would have a Twitter account, Twitter would get hacked and someone would take over my account they could post messages with my account but they cannot sign them with my private key and thus can't prove that they are me. In the same scenario I could just create a new Twitter account, post a message which says that my account got taken over and sign it with my key to prove my identity.
17:20 Hawk777 Yep. Which solves the problem for whatever percentage of your followers actually downloaded your public key and know how to use it to verify the message. I think that’s the sort of thing that keybase.io automates a bit, isn’t it? Posting signed attestations of mappings between keys and various online accounts?
17:20 Noclip[m] Hawk777: I don't know that much about those hardware keys. Is there really no way to back them up?
17:21 independent56 joined #minetest
17:21 Hawk777 I don’t either; I don’t own one. I think some of them might have an “export PIN” or something that you can enter to export the key, and another PIN that you can enter to use the key without exporting it, but I’m not sure. And some might not allow exporting at all, or have the option to generate non-exportable keys.
17:21 detrout Noclip[m], backing them up is considered a security vulnerability, the recommendation for backup is either have a couple of them or some other method to authenticate
17:24 Noclip[m] detrout: So you generate the private key on a normal computer which is considered secure and then import it into all your hardware keys?
17:24 detrout I think you can do that, though you can also generate private keys on the token itself
17:24 proller joined #minetest
17:25 Noclip[m] Hawk777: Isn't keybase just a alternative to Signal? Iirc Keybase uses proprietary server software. That's not really a security concern but not very nice either.
17:26 detrout I thought keybase is a different product, it was trying to help connect identities to keys
17:26 Noclip[m] detrout: Which you then cannot export and thus can't copy into other hardware keys, right?
17:26 Hawk777 Maybe I’m thinking of something else, but I thought Keybase was (at least when it was first launched) a tool for automating things like posting a GPG-signed message on Twitter, Facebook, or whatever else, and verifying said messages from other people, to bind identities to keys.
17:26 detrout signal was an IM system that had very convienent to use crypto setup.
17:27 Noclip[m] detrout: Mhh, on their website it just says "End-to-end encryption for things that matter. Keybase is secure messaging and file-sharing."
17:27 detrout huh apparently keybase branched out? https://keybase.io/
17:28 detrout wow they switched a long time ago
17:29 detrout This is the keybase I'm remembering https://web.archive.org/web/20150209180753/https://keybase.io/
17:29 detrout but they had pivoted to messaging by 2018
17:29 Noclip[m] Interesting
17:29 detrout and i don't care enough to trawl through archive.org to see when they changed
17:34 celeron55_ interesting
17:35 celeron55_ keybase has a blog that goes back man years, you can see what happened there https://keybase.io/blog
17:35 celeron55_ many years*
17:37 celeron55_ https://keybase.io/blog/keybase-chat
17:37 celeron55_ this is where the chat was introduced
17:37 celeron55_ that's 2017
17:40 celeron55_ i think their goal became "crypto for everyone" quite early and then they decided there's no other way forward than a messaging platform
17:41 celeron55_ which makes sense
17:42 celeron55_ messaging is the main use of crypto, and no existing messaging platform is going to take in your technology no matter how nice you make it
17:42 celeron55_ especially if you have a business to run
17:43 celeron55_ but then https://keybase.io/blog/keybase-joins-zoom
17:44 celeron55_ zoom bought the entire thing, and i don't think any original user of keybase wants to use anything published by zoom
17:44 detrout Eh... anyone sufficiently paranoid wasn't going to use keybase in the firstplace
17:45 celeron55_ it was an interesting concept
17:46 celeron55_ sadly zoom isn't going to use any of it, they just want keybase's capable team to work on their existing problems
17:49 proller joined #minetest
17:49 independent56 joined #minetest
17:54 rubenwardy Keybase dev also died after zoom bought them
17:54 rubenwardy Like, activity dropped right off
17:57 delta23 joined #minetest
18:03 celeron55_ obviously
18:23 MinetestBot [git] Treer -> minetest/minetest: Add group-based tool filtering for node drops (#10141) 149d8fc https://git.io/JEgAS (2021-08-27T18:23:20Z)
18:23 MinetestBot [git] Kalabasa -> minetest/minetest: Optimize vector length calculations (#11549) d36dca3 https://git.io/JEgA9 (2021-08-27T18:22:35Z)
18:26 MinetestBot [git] NeroBurner -> minetest/minetest: Joystick sensitivity for player movement (#11262) 1d69a23 https://git.io/JEgxt (2021-08-27T18:24:24Z)
18:45 Elzington_ joined #minetest
18:55 MinetestBot [git] sfan5 -> minetest/minetestmapper: Add simple functional test to CI 5c435f6 https://git.io/JEgjb (2021-08-27T18:53:16Z)
19:02 independent56 joined #minetest
19:04 independent56 joined #minetest
19:07 independent56 Are there times where you become at one with your computer, and end up waching time slip through your hands?
19:08 MTDiscord <Noodlemire> Yes
19:08 MTDiscord <Noodlemire> Usually when coding.
19:12 independent56 I do it all the time, and then i stand up and i am all wibbly wobbly ebcause i spent 2 straight hours on the compuer
19:13 MTDiscord <Noodlemire> Only 2?
19:13 independent56 ha, soemtimes more
19:13 independent56 At night i get too tired, so i end up looking at the clock again and again 1;45... 1:55... 2:05
19:14 Extex I'm using the one-line compiler
19:14 Extex https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=42&amp;t=26509
19:17 Extex joined #minetest
19:19 Extex But when MT starts compiling it stops and says that IrrlichtMT isn't installed
19:19 Extex "Irrlicht Mt is required to build the client, but it was not found."
19:24 celeron55_ that guide is definitely outdated for the latest development version
19:24 celeron55_ you'll need to take a look at the official readmes
19:43 manjaro-user joined #minetest
19:47 rubenwardy https://github.blog/2021-08-27-30-free-and-open-source-linux-games-part-3/
19:49 sfan5 neat
19:55 specing Excellent, Microsoft Minetest
19:55 celeron55_ wait do all of the games mentioned in that series of posts have their code on github
19:55 specing Isn't that the point of a github blog post?
19:56 celeron55_ well, not necessarily, but looks like it
19:57 specing_ joined #minetest
19:57 detrout that's a pretty good list of most of the best open source games
20:01 celeron55_ what is interesting is that basically microsoft (under the name github) links to minetest and recommends it, while they have a commercial proprietary product to sell
20:02 celeron55_ i mean, competing product
20:02 MTDiscord <Warr1024> it's free advertising
20:03 celeron55_ i don't think they have competing commercial products for any of the other games mentioned in that blog series unless you count games distributed in their app stores
20:03 Elzington joined #minetest
20:03 MTDiscord <Warr1024> people playing something that's basically perceived as "knock-off Minecraft" are people thinking about playing games a lot like Minecraft, such as, say, Minecraft.
20:03 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Minecraft isnt a competing product
20:03 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Theres no competition
20:04 MTDiscord <Warr1024> heh, that's kinda true on a couple levels
20:04 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Yeah, and I meant it on a couple levels
20:04 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Two separate applications intended for separate purposes
20:05 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> They just both happen to like blocks
20:06 celeron55_ well in the eyes of the general public, it kind of is
20:07 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> While that may be true, GitHub/Microsoft and its employees are not the general public
20:07 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Besides, some Minecraft devs have (and might still) played Minetest. If they understand the difference, who cares what everyone else thinks
20:12 celeron55_ i can see it's the brand that's most valuable. it wouldn't even matter if minetest became very popular among technically minded people and was developed to some kind of killer product - if that happened, microsoft would literally just start distributing minetest re-branded as minecraft
20:12 celeron55_ in reality, of course, not going to happen
20:14 celeron55_ not that anyone a decade or two ago would have believed some of the stuff microsoft is doing these days
20:14 detrout (Also never assume that large companies have consistent positions, there are always scores of different people or factions who can be in various levels of conflict)
20:27 proller joined #minetest
20:36 independent56 joined #minetest
20:38 independent56 joined #minetest
20:50 independent56 joined #minetest
20:55 independent56 joined #minetest
20:56 independent56 joined #minetest
21:00 independent56 joined #minetest
21:18 proller joined #minetest
21:36 YuGiOhJCJ joined #minetest
21:41 Talkless joined #minetest
21:42 mazes_81 yes jonadab thumbs up, I'm interested in this new feature
21:44 proller joined #minetest
22:10 olliy joined #minetest
22:17 independent56 joined #minetest
22:34 z812 joined #minetest
22:42 Verticen joined #minetest
23:13 independent56 joined #minetest
23:30 proller joined #minetest
23:58 independent56 joined #minetest
23:59 independent56 joined #minetest

| Channels | #minetest index | Today | | Google Search | Plaintext