IRC log for #minetest, 2021-08-25

Time	Nick	Message
00:58	MTDiscord	<GamingoontYT> .
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11:06	independent56	What block can i use which gives me a blood feel? Can i use red clay superslabs and then use it as blood?
11:07	independent56	Nope, red block frombridger is better
11:09	Noclip[m]	independent56: You could also make your own node for that.
11:09	independent56	Yeah... no
11:10	independent56	im far too lazy
11:12	Noclip[m]	I've not yet messed with adding new nodes but it's probably just a few lines of code and a PNG texture file.
11:14	independent56	i know
11:22	independent56	Well, now my administrative centre has spanish names for buildings, like "la casa tinto" for execution house or "estacion de tren" for train station.
11:23	independent56	The first translation is a euhanism
11:28	independent56	the red is the blod of countless defectors to the independian regime
11:29	independent56	(blod as in misspelling of blood, not the welsh word for flower)
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12:26	Noclip[m]	<independent56> "im far too lazy" <- Mhh, maybe I can do that for you.
12:26	independent56	Is it just me or does minetest artifical light feel lazier?
12:26	Noclip[m]	But I'm not promising anything xD
12:26	independent56	Noclip[m], nah, no need to bother
12:27	Noclip[m]	independent56: I mean I'm currently messing with the API anyways so this might be a nice learning experience.
12:28	Noclip[m]	independent56: What do you mean by that?
12:28	independent56	Ok then, you can make this a small project. Maybe even make it public and then i won't have any obligation to repay with with a favour
12:29	Noclip[m]	In Minecraft Redstone is often used for blood so I would just try to make a node which looks similar to that.
12:31	independent56	good idea
12:33	independent56	Challange: make it so that more blood connected will make a higher concentration
12:34	Noclip[m]	Uff that makes it directly 10 times more complicated. I first need to understand how to make a custom node ...
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12:35	independent56	something like minetest.register_node("firesafety:sign_left",{
12:35	independent56	(i tried making a mod before)
12:35	independent56	in 2020 third quarter
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12:38	Noclip[m]	independent56: Looks like mineclone2 actually uses different nodes for different connection stages of redstone.
12:38	independent56	i thought it would be like different textures for the same node
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12:44	MTDiscord	<Sublayer plank> celeron55: there are some people who aren't being sent their verification emails on the forum. could this be because of the switch to the new server?
12:47	Noclip[m]	<independent56> "i thought it would be like..." <- Actually it looks like they're even using a different model for each stage.
12:48	independent56	wow
12:49	Noclip[m]	It's all in mineclone2/mods/ITEMS/REDSTONE/mesecons_wires/init.lua
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13:17	Telesight	There is a horror mod with blood ;-)
13:18	Noclip[m]	Mhh
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13:49	grouinos	hello, i want to create a mod but i find out minetest since few time, is somebody have a suggest to do it ?
13:50	Noclip[m]	What?
13:51	grouinos	I need to understand the minetest architecture
13:52	Noclip[m]	Ahh, I see.
13:52	sfan5	!book
13:52	MinetestBot	sfan5: Minetest Modding Book - https://rubenwardy.com/minetest_modding_book/
13:52	grouinos	may be i'm in the wrong place for my ask
13:54	Noclip[m]	grouinos: No, you're at the right place.
13:55	Noclip[m]	Could someone please update the TLS certificate of the MT wiki?
13:56	grouinos	this idea come him when i trying different server like edgy with avalon blockcity catlandia and nico's world sub nasa and others
13:58	MTDiscord	<Sublayer plank> you'll have to wait until c55 moves the wiki to the new server for that
13:59	Noclip[m]	grouinos: To learn more about minetest the wiki is also a great place to start: https://wiki.minetest.net
13:59	grouinos	and i have some suggests for these different game
14:00	Noclip[m]	Sublayer plank: Mhh, okay.
14:01	grouinos	->noclip : yes I saw but it does not suit me
14:03	grouinos	->noclip : it's the brothel
14:07	grouinos	I have a pretty clear idea of what I want to do, but I have to figure out how minetest works
14:08	grouinos	my question is: where to start?
14:09	sfan5	you could start reading the API documentation right way https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/doc/lua_api.txt
14:09	sfan5	but the modding book I linked above is a better introduction if you've never done it before
14:10	Noclip[m]	Nahh, I would start at least with the modding book.
14:10	Noclip[m]	The link (once again): https://rubenwardy.com/minetest_modding_book/
14:10	grouinos	ok, trying
14:10	grouinos	thanks
14:12	grouinos	no, it's not good
14:13	Noclip[m]	What is not good? The modding book? Why not?
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14:14	grouinos	for example : I want to take the standard character from the beginning to change its appearance
14:16	grouinos	when we enter in game for the first time, we have a defaut avatar
14:17	grouinos	if i must read all the documentation for know how to do, that don't interest him
14:18	Noclip[m]	grouinos: I've no idea how one can do that but I've also plans for doing that so I'm interested in the answer, too.
14:19	Noclip[m]	I've just got into modding a few days ago so I'm also still a beginner at it.
14:20	grouinos	i want to create a monster who appareance based on standard avatar, sorry for my english, i'm french...
14:20	Noclip[m]	grouinos: Are you referring to yourself when you say "him" or is there someone else involved in this?
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14:22	grouinos	no just me, if i can't have informations to do my mod, i don't do and go to make some draw and craft
14:22	Noclip[m]	grouinos: I'm in the country to your right side.
14:23	grouinos	french ?
14:24	Noclip[m]	Programming isn't something that you learn in 10 minutes, it will take it's time.
14:24	Noclip[m]	grouinos: No, germany.
14:25	grouinos	i'm not a beginner but i don't know all
14:25	grouinos	hello, what's the weather in germany ?
14:26	grouinos	i had going 2 time to germany, at berlin
14:28	grouinos	to begin, for my prodject, i need to have the avatar to change his appearance with a soft
14:30	grouinos	and after, programming comportment
14:30	grouinos	if i understand, the langage is lua ?
14:30	Noclip[m]	Weather looks good as far as I can tell.
14:31	Noclip[m]	Yes, it's lua.
14:31	Noclip[m]	grouinos: Do you only want to change the skin or also the model?
14:33	grouinos	you know, mobs monster, i want to create 1 monster, with skin based on our skin when begin a game
14:34	grouinos	i don't understand difference skin/model
14:35	grouinos	when you play, you see other players, the new player have standart skin
14:37	Noclip[m]	grouinos: The skin is basically just the color and the model is everything else: Does the entity have arms and legs? If so how many? How tall or big is it? Does it look like a human or rather like a dog? Maybe it looks like a spider.
14:37	rubenwardy	grouinos: the modding book is intended to support reading it out of order and skipping chapters
14:38	rubenwardy	you'll need to read 3 chapters: Getting Started, Lua scripting (assumping you have no Lua knowledge), and Object, Players and Entities
14:38	Noclip[m]	rubenwardy: Ahh great, that's exactly what I've been doing the last days xD
14:38	rubenwardy	then you'll need to look at the player_api mod
14:38	rubenwardy	learning to program well takes your 10,000 hours, like any other skils
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14:41	grouinos	ok, i user debian, where is minetest software, i search and don't fing
14:41	grouinos	find
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14:41	independent56	Telesight, The horro mod uses flowing blood. I want blood i can place, like the one stuck to the concrete floor of the torture chamber
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14:44	grouinos	well, I think I understood, nothing is possible. I give up.
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14:59	MTDiscord	<Sublayer plank> don't give up :(
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15:05	Noclip[m]	rubenwardy: That's 13.7 years if you spend 2 hours per day on minetest!
15:05	rubenwardy	only 2 hours? Pfff
15:05	rubenwardy	also, don't spend all your time programming with one thing
15:05	rubenwardy	that's ineffective
15:06	rubenwardy	I probably spent 2 hours a day when in secondary school
15:06	Noclip[m]	Oh wait, I read "learning this program well" instead of "learning to program well" ...
15:06	Noclip[m]	So I thought 10k hours just for learning minetest ...
15:06	rubenwardy	but by college, that was probably more like 4 hours a day - due to fewer hours reserved by lessons
15:06	rubenwardy	then by university, basically every waking hour
15:07	rubenwardy	and now with a programming job, every sleeping hour too
15:07	rubenwardy	it's a problem
15:09	Noclip[m]	rubenwardy: But you didn't spend all of that time for university or your job, did you?
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15:09	Noclip[m]	I mean you're still spending some time participating in the MT community, right?
15:17	rubenwardy	Noclip[m]: I'm exaggerating slightly and I have way too many hobby projects
15:18	rubenwardy	most recent being Renewed Tab
15:18	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> This is why I use "x" as a variable name so frequently. If I spread my time out using a bunch of other variable names, then it'll take forever to accumulate 10k hours using any one.
15:20	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> By the time you are 14 months old you're an expert at everything, though, because your time spent doing everything will add up to 10k hours then.
15:21	Noclip[m]	rubenwardy: So you spend that much time on programming because you have fun doing so?
15:21	rubenwardy	hahaha yeahhhh funn
15:22	Noclip[m]	Is that a No?
15:23	Noclip[m]	Why so many hobby projects if not for fun?
15:23	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> The answer to "is programming fun" is "programmers have an unusual idea of what fun means."
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15:24	grouinos	i can understand there are a lot of place for programming but not for creativity
15:24	rubenwardy	lol, warr, pretty much
15:24	grouinos	programming for programming
15:25	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Not sure what programming but not creativity means ... try programming without creativity and see how far you get.
15:25	rubenwardy	I do find programming fun though
15:26	Noclip[m]	"programmers have an unusual idea of what fun means."
15:26	Noclip[m]	-> Maybe the better question would then be: Are you happy with what you are doing?
15:26	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> That would depend on whether your definition of "happy" matches mine
15:26	rubenwardy	well, programming is creative but coding not necessarily, I think creativity is more about designing and making something new rather than writing code specifically
15:27	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Creativity includes finding unusual paths to an answer, even if the origin and destination are well defined and constrained.
15:27	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> In fact creativity is given meaning by the constraints; without such things, it's basically just whitenoise.
15:28	rubenwardy	Sure, writing code requires some creativity, but I wouldn't consider it enough to be considered a creative task
15:28	rubenwardy	I suppose: architecture is creative, but do you consider laying bricks creative?
15:28	rubenwardy	the design and writing code do go hand in hand
15:28	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> You're basically defining writing code as typing
15:28	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Sure, typing is not particularly creatie
15:28	grouinos	i think there are a little problem with numeric technology
15:29	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> I'm doing a lot more than just typing when writing code
15:29	Noclip[m]	MTDiscord: If you would be depressed because of too much programming for example I would count that as definitely not happy. The opposite of that would be happy then I guess.
15:29	grouinos	and this problem with the PROGRAMM
15:29	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> I would be depressed if I had the incorrect amount of programming in my life, too much or too little.
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15:31	Noclip[m]	Stealing a programmer's laptop xD
15:31	rubenwardy	If I am depressed, I'd blame my landlord for not letting me have a cat
15:32	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> To me, the act of "programming" is the act of creating software. Sometimes that's just a matter of writing more or less obvious code, for trivial examples. Sometimes it involves a lot of project management work. Sometimes it's a trek from point A to point B and you only need to find the path, while other times it's an odyssey and you don't know quite where it will take you, you only have a general direction in mind.
15:32	Noclip[m]	rubenwardy: You can have a rubber duck instead, lol.
15:32	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> I suppose programming does have some non-creative aspects to it, like copying shit off stack overflow or just typing, but I usually don't associate those activities much with programming because they're not really top-of-mind when I'm doing it.
15:33	rubenwardy	I agree that programming is creative
15:34	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> You could be a programmer without typing at all, e.g. if you exclusively do pair programming and you're always the senior one so you're never the one driving the keyboard.
15:35	grouinos	architecture is not creative, it's idea who is creative
15:35	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Programming being creative is actually one of the reasons why general AI is an unexpectedly big threat to jobs in programming.
15:36	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> We sort of assumed that "automation" meant "robots" who would take over the menial work, but it turns out that artificial minds are improving at a pace much faster than artificial bodies are, so it's probably more cerebral fields that are threatened.
15:37	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> AI will need truck drivers to keep an eye on the payload for a long time, but managing a global shipping network is stuff that AI can easily do from the comfort of the cloud.
15:37	grouinos	creativity begins with an idea and materializes with tools
15:37	rubenwardy	most physical automation is invisible to consumers - it's in factories, reducing the number of works
15:37	rubenwardy	also - self checkout machines
15:37	grouinos	and digital tools are flawed
15:37	rubenwardy	vending machines, and those coffee machines
15:38	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> self-checkout and vending machines are an interesting case study because they're not really the kind of automation we would have expected either, and it also represents an interesting cultural shift
15:38	Noclip[m]	Well if the AI gets to the point where it can do the planning itself then I would assume that there isn't really anything left which the AI won't be able to do from then on.
15:38	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Do you remember people lamenting like 20 or 30 years ago "why do I have to go through the phone menus, why can't I just talk to a person?"
15:38	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> These days though it's "why do I have to call, why can't I just use your website or email?"
15:39	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> We have essentially already proven that AI already does pretty much all the fundamentals that meat brains do, and the obstacles it has aren't achieving some essential quality that only humans have, but simply economics and scale.
15:41	grouinos	do I need to remind you that an operating system is only a menu offering to choose which software you will use? And that this menu weighs 4 gigabytes
15:41	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> AI have flexibility of scale in both space and time, which we lack, so basically we're already "the old model" and the thing holding back our obsolescence is the fact that we're dirt cheap compared to AI.
15:42	Noclip[m]	Warr1024: So you're saying if we would just throw more power and data at current AIs they would most likely pass human inteligence levels?
15:43	Noclip[m]	grouinos: Why 4 gigabytes?
15:44	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Depending on how you measure intelligence, I suppose. It also depends on whether you're e.g. comparing an AI against a human, or against humanity.
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15:45	grouinos	windows and linux weighs more than 4 Gbs
15:45	grouinos	there are problem somewhere
15:46	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> It's not so much though that AI have crossed some special threshold, it's just that we've essentially proven that there never was a threshold, and the special qualities that we have ascribed to humanity is just wishful thinking. We just want to think that we're special because the idea that we're nothing more than a sack of meat with some quantities scaled up to just a bit higher than other sacks of meat apparently terrifies us.
15:46	grouinos	you don't want understand, ok, you will see the problem
15:47	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> I've installed Linux in something like 30MB, so no idea what this 4GB thing is all about.
15:47	grouinos	i already see a lot of sign of consequence about the numeric problem
15:47	grouinos	you want a list ?
15:47	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> I never actually got into the whole floppy-disk-sized linux distro thing back in the day, but I was aware it was a thing at the time at least.
15:47	MTDiscord	<Sublayer plank> the modern linux kernel is already like 150mb in size now
15:48	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> linux is pretty big if you have all the modules available and such
15:48	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> That's probably a good idea for a general-purpose install, i.e. one you don't want to suddenly stop booting if you swap out hardware.
15:49	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> A BSD kernel tends to be a bit smaller; I think OpenBSD has a monolithic kernel closer to 10MB or something ... but in that case, I've never really been able to trim a full system install down below about 120MB, and I'm sure it's grown since then.
15:49	grouinos	i use raspbian (raspios) for x 86 on athlon, because windows 10 is too big, windows xp can't go to internet and i haven't enough money to buy another computer
15:50	Noclip[m]	grouinos: Depending on the distribution linux can be far less than 4 Gbs. I think there are distros with less than 50 Mb.
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15:51	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> raspbian on x86 sounds like a kind of odd distro choice, I thought it was mostly for arm raspi machines
15:51	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Dunno what happened to our discussion about "creativity" though :-)
15:52	grouinos	there is a x86 version on micro usb memory
15:52	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> It seems like people want to take a word like "creativity" that has positive connotations and define it to have some essential quality that only a human demonstrates so that they can exclude AI and allow themselves to feel special. It's a reasonable defense mechanism, I suppose, but in the end that's all it really is.
15:53	Noclip[m]	MTDiscord: 'What, I'm not a holy being created by an almighty god to bring love to the world? That can't be true because I can feel my holiness!'
15:53	grouinos	ok mtddiscord, I want to express my creativity, but I can't because the tools are inaccessible to me.
15:54	Noclip[m]	"<Sublayer plank> the modern linux kernel is already like 150mb in size now"
15:54	Noclip[m]	-> But it's modular so you can remove stuff if you don't need it.
15:54	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Heh, well, I don't think that my views on AI actually have much to say about religion either way.
15:55	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Pretty much every modern kernel is modular. Linux has runtime-bound modules that you can remove or simply not include the files for. The BSD "monolithic" kernels have modules whose presence is determined at compile-time, and you relink them to add/remove stuff.
15:55	grouinos	may be noclip, but inaccessible for a lot of people to use it
15:55	Noclip[m]	"i use raspbian (raspios) for x 86 on athlon"
15:55	Noclip[m]	-> Imagine using raspberry pi OS on x86, lol.
15:56	Noclip[m]	"<Warr1024> Dunno what happened to our discussion about "creativity" though :-)"
15:56	Noclip[m]	-> Turned into a discussion about weird distro choices apparently ...
15:56	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> I find it a bit hard to believe that raspbian is an ideal distro to use on x86 ... but I could see how it might be tuned in useful ways, e.g. maybe the assumption that storage is on microSD makes it less storage-heavy and thus better-tuned on machines with slower USB storage.
15:56	grouinos	and 150 mbs it's a lot for propose a what software i will use
15:57	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> The OS is not a menu of what software you can choose to run, it acts as an intermediary between the software and the hardware, so that the software can speak one language but be understood by a wide variety of hardware.
15:58	rubenwardy	exactly that
15:58	grouinos	i have mecanic hard drive, and mecanic hard drive can be broken easily
15:58	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Your idea of what an OS is sounds a lot like what they used to be like in the DOS days, when hardware was simple and not very diverse.
15:58	rubenwardy	it also allows multiple pieces of software to run at once on a single computer
15:58	rubenwardy	without corrupting each other
15:59	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> In the DOS days software would basically be given total control of the hardware when it was run, you couldn't run more than one program at a time outside of some special hacks, and each program was responsible for talking directly to many of the devices in the system if they wanted to do anything outside of super-basic functionality like displaying text on the screen.
16:00	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> It worked fine in the days when what we needed from computers was also similarly simple.
16:00	grouinos	i want to say, digital infrastructure is not thinking for optimisation, just to make some jobs for millions personn, thinking logic of the thing
16:01	grouinos	and consequence for the life of million other person
16:02	grouinos	you don't want to know, you will know
16:02	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> I don't want to know, but I already know. :-\|
16:03	Noclip[m]	"define it to have some essential quality that only a human demonstrates"
16:03	Noclip[m]	-> Humans are the only species that can make use of external tools which aren't part of their body ... Oh look at this squid, it uses sticks to crack a shell! Or see those monkeys, they can even create their own tools! ... Well that cannot really count of course because they're not humans and their usage of tools isn't really advanced anyways.
16:03	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> It's pretty easy to think about the inefficiencies of our system and how we could be doing things better, but the cost of optimizing out those inefficiencies is to create inefficiencies elsewhere in the larger system.
16:04	Noclip[m]	Just stupid monkeys, they don't have a soul anyways.
16:06	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Haha, yeah, if you say something like "if a human has a soul, then a rock does too," then people tend to interpret that as you either saying "then everything has a soul and souls aren't special" or "souls don't exist", and it's not really necessarily one of those or the other, but what people think you meant sometimes says a lot more about them than about you.
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16:07	Noclip[m]	Warr1024: Raspberry Pi OS has been optimized for the raspberry pi but it is also available for x86, probably because "why not" ...
16:07	Noclip[m]	In the end Raspberry Pi OS is just a debian fork so running it on x86 is probably not much different then running debian on x86.
16:08	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Yeah, that's sort of the direction I was leaning
16:09	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> I'm not sure if raspbian does anything really fundamentally raspier than debian does, other than just coming with the bootloader for the pi, and having a few pi-specific setup tools.
16:09	grouinos	Animals are individuals in their own right, they do not have the same morphology, by the same language but think like us, whether you admit it or not.
16:09	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> There could be a few small differences in config.
16:09	Noclip[m]	"i have mecanic hard drive, and mecanic hard drive can be broken easily"
16:09	Noclip[m]	-> Make sure that you don't hit it with a hammer "by accident" xD
16:10	grouinos	yes mtd, i take raspbian because i have some rpi
16:10	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Mechanical and solid-state hard drives are not very dissimilar in durability. SSDs have some advantages in some day-to-day threats, but they also have some specific weaknesses that HDDs don't have too...
16:10	grouinos	and for have compatibility with software
16:10	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Ah, if you have a mix of pi and non-pi machines, then running a single distro across all of them for consistency and ease of maintenance does make sense...
16:11	grouinos	i already having problem with mecanical hard drive because a choc, not strong but enough
16:11	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> you mean like you dropped it? Or you mean like it got an electrical surge?
16:12	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> or you mean you accidentally smeared chocolate on it :-)
16:12	Noclip[m]	grouinos: Todays digital infrastructure is far too complicated and fast evolving to be optimized by such stupid beings as we humans are ...
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16:13	grouinos	no, I hit the computer without doing it on purpose and I lost data
16:13	Desour	did you hit it ... with a chocolate bar?
16:14	Desour	aww
16:14	Noclip[m]	"<Warr1024> I'm not sure if raspbian does anything really [...]"
16:14	Noclip[m]	-> Not that I'm aware of, I think it's just that.
16:15	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Humans can optimize digital infrastructure, but then that could end up being a less optimal human-digital system overall. It's basically just the laws of thermodynamics. Try to create order somewhere, and you must create an equal or greater amount of chaos somewhere else.
16:16	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> This is sort of why we don't try to fix every bug, sometimes it just makes more sense overall to learn to accept some imperfection.
16:17	Noclip[m]	"<Warr1024> Ah, if you have a mix of pi and non-pi machines, then running a single distro across all of them for consistency and ease of maintenance does make sense..."
16:17	Noclip[m]	-> I'd probably just install debian on the x86 machine then (if consistency were a goal).
16:17	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Heh, or you could say "the bug was caused by reality not meeting our expectations, and we resolved the issue by applying a patch to our expectations."
16:18	Noclip[m]	"<Warr1024> or you mean you accidentally smeared chocolate on it :-)"
16:18	Noclip[m]	-> lol, that was unexpected xD
16:18	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> I'd probably install debian too, but that may also be because I ran debian for a few years before trying raspbian, so I know the debian side of it pretty well, and that's the subset. Going from superset to subset, though, you have to run into cases where tools you're used to relying on are absent.
16:19	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Yeah, I mean, I didn't know what "choc" meant exactly, assumed it was probably a language barrier thing, but who knows, I once nearly broke a CRT monitor by spilling an entire soda into it.
16:20	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> I ended up draining it out, leaving it unplugged for several days to dry, and then it worked fine for years after that.
16:21	Noclip[m]	"<Warr1024> This is sort of why we don't try to fix every bug, sometimes it just makes more sense overall to learn to accept some imperfection."
16:21	Noclip[m]	I'm a perfectionist, In tests I often end up having done everything right but missing the entire last 30% of the test when the time is over ...
16:22	Pexin	but soda is refreshing and fizzy
16:22	Pexin	was it diet soda?
16:28	Noclip[m]	"I once nearly broke a CRT monitor by spilling an entire soda into it."
16:28	Noclip[m]	-> Wanna see my new monitor? Here it is, what do you think? ... Wow, it's really waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa, uhh ohh sorry, didn't mean to do that but the soda suddenly came up. I'm sure it won't be broke, we can probably just wipe it away.
16:28	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> I hear people say "I'm a perfectionist" a lot, sometimes with some sense of pride, but I've usually found that "I struggle with perfectionism" is a more useful way to look at it. What we call perfectionism is more like a flawed balance optimization, wherein resources like attention are poorly distributed across a task. I think everyone struggles with perfectionism in their own way, I'm just lucky that mine has been very manageable.
16:29	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Nah, what I learned from the soda debacle is that if you ever need to setup a computer on the floor instead of a desk, then you should similarly move all your beverages lower as well to match.
16:30	Noclip[m]	Well you have also people that are done with the test after half the time but end up having 70% wrong ...
16:31	Noclip[m]	So there are for sure differences among people.
16:31	Noclip[m]	And then there are those how are done after half the time and have everything 100% correct plus all the bonus points.
16:34	Pexin	when I started college I was 28 and rusty. placement test put me in basic math 2. I figured assume they know what they're doing. class was wayy too easy, afterward I retook placement and placed in precalc.
16:34	Pexin	sometimes you're just Taking The Wrong Test
16:37	Noclip[m]	Shit happens
16:37	Noclip[m]	And life is complicated for sure.
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16:44	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> The advantage to finishing the test in half the time but getting shit 70% wrong is that you have time to take a second pass and pick up some of your mistakes. You've also done all the problems so you have a better overview of the whole field, and thus better information for prioritizing your attention. It's an optimization problem where you want to improve your ability to optimally allocate attention in subsequent passes vs. the
16:44	MTDiscord	overhead costs of increased task-switching.
16:46	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Sometimes it's not even a matter of You're Taking The Wrong Test, it might just be a matter of The Right Test Doesn't Even Exist And Might Not Even Be Possible.
16:46	Noclip[m]	Well some people just wanna be done with the test as fast as possible and don't mind looking over it again.
16:47	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> I did notice that I did a lot better on tests where I finished early and spent the last 10% of my time checking my answers instead of finishing early and just bailing out early.
16:48	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Life is a little like that in some ways, but life also often has a next test you could (and maybe should) be starting on early, so the optimal solution tends to be more complicated.
16:48	Noclip[m]	We shouldn't forget that the goal is learning and not having a perfect test ...
16:48	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Haha, the goal in school is not learning ... you learn in life; you go to school simply to demonstrate to the system that you're capable of working with it.
16:49	Noclip[m]	Kinda true
16:50	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Well, I suppose schools do create an environment in which learning is available to you, and also offer you challenges to motivate learning. But learning is really something that you have to internalize; thinking about it as a "school" thing is at least sort of unhealthy.
16:51	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> School in at least Western society also serves as a tool to measure your performance in a number of metrics that we assume are useful proxies for estimating your future performance, i.e. a lot of the reason you go to school is to prove that you'll be able to job.
16:51	Pexin	school taught me to do the assignments they gave me. this did not prepare me well for college. in fact I was mostly through grad school before I figured it out. too late.
16:52	Pexin	without My Own Goal, it was professionally useless
16:53	Pexin	#minetest - "therapy sharing"
16:54	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> I'm wary of categorically dismissing schools as being useless for education, because it's possible that they do a good job of serving some population that I just am not part of ... but yeah, if I had relied on schools to teach me instead of self-teaching, I don't think I'd have gotten very acceptable results.
16:55	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Actually discussion of education is sort of on-topic for Minetest, since use as an educational tool is a common and valuable role for it.
16:55	Pexin	but... lua... :\|
16:55	Desour	lua is nice
16:55	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Whining about lua ?
16:56	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Lua or not lua is pretty irrelevant to MT's purpose in education, or really anywhere...
16:59	Noclip[m]	Wanna know what makes me really sad?: In our capitalistic systems a lot of people are working very much and very hard and some of them are working way too much and too hard which often results in mental or physical health issues or at least a reduced quality of life. The question why I keep asking myself recently over and over is this: How many of all the working people are actually working on something which is beneficial to humanity?
17:00	Pexin	Noclip[m]: you have no idea how often I think about that
17:00	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> tbf I've considered whether Fennel would be a better language for MT modding, but I think Lua is ultimately closer to the sweet spot, and a project needs to be pretty big before the economies of scale that metaprogramming via Fennel compensates adequately for the overhead costs of the syntax.
17:00	Pexin	the majority of occupations in the developed world are busywork that have been invented/perpetuated just so people have shit to do, running themselves frantic just so they don't starve homeless. the amount of work that actually needs to be done is pretty small
17:01	Pexin	if the unnecessary work could be eliminated or scaled down, and the necessary work streamlined in ways industry doesn't want for reasons, everything that Needs to get done would still get done and everyone would have way more free time
17:01	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Re: beneficial to humanity, humans are conscious, but humanity itself is only conscious on a very different timescale, and it has not learned to do much more than reactively respond to its environment and keep itself more or less alive so far.
17:02	Pexin	the entities that are in a position to work toward postscarcity are the same entities with a vested interest in perpetuating the current system because they are Winning Capitalism
17:02	* Pexin	is a hipster... crying_emoji
17:03	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> The sloppiness of life is fractal; it exists at every scale. If you try to think too hard about what should be, you can drive yourself nuts. It's comforting to know, though, that the fact that we can even think about these problems is itself an improvement from the way we were before.
17:04	Pexin	remember the jetsons? mostly automated society, but they still assumed capitalism would provide jobs where you literally press a single button all day :x
17:05	* Pexin	stops now
17:05	Noclip[m]	You can have the best degree, wage or reputation in the world but what does that help you if you're not happy with what you're doing and at the same time actually working on pushing humanity towards a worse future?!
17:06	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> I don't think we're pushing humanity toward a necessarily worse future ... but it may be fair to say that we're pushing humanity toward an Unpleasant Learning Experience :-)
17:07	Pexin	I lied I'm not done. if you run out of chores at home, that's not a crisis, that's optimal. but at the national or economic scale "unemployment" is a horrible tragedy
17:08	MTDiscord	<Noodlemire> On a small scale, you typically aren't worrying about the time limit on your existence :P
17:08	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> The idea that all people must be employed in some economically gainful Job is a bias in the Western world (though supposedly strongest in the USA) that we may have to unlearn.
17:08	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> I'm not really worried about running out of time; actually if I turned out to be immortal (and it's hard to tell the actual risk of this given my sample size) that would probably throw a monkey wrench into my plans.
17:09	Pexin	covid was _supposed_ to teach society the difference between essential jobs and non-essential. among other things. it clearly isn't working
17:10	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Haha, you make it sound like they grew it in a lab for that specific purpose XD
17:10	Pexin	if everyone had free time and free education, we could have more medical researchers and figure out clinical immortality in 20 years
17:12	Noclip[m]	"but humanity itself is only conscious on a very different timescale"
17:12	Noclip[m]	-> Inteligence and consciousness seem to somehow shorten out increasingly if you look at more and more humans at a time. The behaviour of the whole humanity seems fairly calculatable for not too long time scales.
17:13	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Immortality may already be a thing. All universes in which you die become unobservable to you, so therefore as time carries on, other people die in the universes which you can observe, but you never do. Eventually everyone is left more or less alone, each in their own universe.
17:15	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> I've been saying for a few years that H. P. Lovecraft may be considered the father of the Cosmic Horror genre, but he's got nothing on Wikipedia. We may be drawn to read cosmic horror fiction because it's way less terrifying than cosmic horror nonfiction.
17:15	Pexin	hipster threshold passed, I'm out :]
17:15	Desour	> <Warr1024> Haha, you make it sound like they grew it in a lab for that specific purpose XD
17:15	Desour	https://coronalabs.com/
17:16	Noclip[m]	<MTDiscord> "<Warr1024> I don't think we're..." <- Climate catastrophy? Proprietary spyware everywhere outside our little foss bubble? The list goes on ...
17:16	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Haha, when did they change the definition of "hipster"?
17:16		erlehmann joined #minetest
17:17	MTDiscord	<Noodlemire> Happens to any overused buzzword, especially negative ones.
17:18	MTDiscord	<Noodlemire> Or at least, those that get used negatively.
17:18	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Hipster sounds like the name of MP3 sharing software for people who believe in free love and drugs ... but then maybe that's just me showing my age. :-/
17:19	erlehmann	the scaling of the menu icons generates ugly jagged edges. anyone knows what to do about it?
17:19	erlehmann	here is an example PR to figure that out https://git.minetest.land/Mineclonia/Mineclonia/pulls/139
17:20	Noclip[m]	"<Warr1024> Immortality may already be a thing. All universes in which [...]"
17:20	Noclip[m]	-> That's not really better than any other religion, it's pure speculation and has nothing todo with sience.
17:20	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> I committed a fix for that aliasing issue to the engine like 5 years ago ... I guess it's a question of (1) was that solution used in that place, and (2) is your configuration correct.
17:21	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Noclip: what does science have to do with it?
17:21	Pexin	@Warr1024 nothing at all. pay attention :]
17:21	Pexin	(hoho)
17:21	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> ho
17:21	erlehmann	Warr1024 could you please point me to the fix?
17:22	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Lemme check my own install first and see if mine behaves differently
17:22	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Yeah, looks like mine are okay...
17:22	erlehmann	the thing is, 72x72 works on two of my machines and one from my friends. but 96x96 does not work. and how mineclone2 came to use 103x103 …
17:23	erlehmann	no idea
17:24	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Okay, the fix was made available, but is apparently still disabled by default even after all these years
17:24	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/minetest.conf.example#L1017
17:24	erlehmann	so the thing is, if the icon is scaled it looks bizarre. but i have not found anything else besides 72x72 that looks good on my machines.
17:24	erlehmann	regardless, no actual icon i have seen with other mods is 72x72
17:24	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> MT does not have a way to specify layouts to require integer scaling, which means it's forced to deal with non-integer scaling.
17:25	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> It contains code that makes it possible to produce the least-shitty-possible final result of a non-integer scaling, but apparently it's disabled by default.
17:25	erlehmann	lol
17:25	erlehmann	so the solution is …
17:25	erlehmann	gui_scaling_filter = true
17:25	erlehmann	???
17:26	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Yeah, a lot of things get fixed but then left disabled by default perpetually because somebody would demand we reenable spacebar heating.
17:26	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> try it, I think it should work.
17:26	erlehmann	that sounds like it does not work reliably
17:26	Noclip[m]	"<Warr1024> Noclip: what does science have to do with it?"
17:26	Noclip[m]	-> Nothing?! But many people think about science if they hear "universes" while it's (in this case) actually just fiction and hasn't really anthing todo with science. Honestly I do not even understand why you came up with that. What's your message? Was it some sort of joke?
17:27	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Haha, it still talks about Render-to-Texture ... how many platforms are even still doing that? Are there even any now?
17:27	rubenwardy	well, searching for `gui_scaling_filter` the first thing I find is an issue where sfan5 asks why it's not enabled by default
17:27	rubenwardy	I believe I looked into why it wasn't enabled by default, but I can't remember what the situation is
17:28	rubenwardy	should either be enabled by default or documented better :P
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17:29	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Noclip: science is not the sole purveyor of truth. We have actually scientifically proven that some things are unknowable; we've got Godel and Heisenberg and the like. Science also only generates predictive models of the way things behave, but does not assign meaning to them. You could argue that things don't have meaning if that meaning cannot be proven ... but then the fact that I ascribe meaning to them that is unprovable is
17:29	MTDiscord	itself meaningless and not really worth discussing.
17:29	rubenwardy	tl;dr: warr is not being serious
17:30	rubenwardy	after all, warr never changes
17:30	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> I was being about as serious as Wikipedia is in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_suicide_and_immortality
17:30	* Pexin	blinks at rubenwardy
17:30	erlehmann	what
17:31	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> I think it wasn't enabled by default because we wanted to wait and let it "stabilize" first. I think it has done that.
17:31	erlehmann	well, a not-enabled setting is not necessarily stable
17:32	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> And how exactly would it get stable then, other than enabling it?
17:33	erlehmann	looks much better lol
17:33	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> We have this bizarre "improve everything that can be improved without getting rid of any of the old bugs or behavioral quirks that people might be relying on" mission that's not really actually solvable.
17:33	erlehmann	i hope no one is relying on shitty scaling
17:33	rubenwardy	you're making these statement with no context whatsoever
17:33	Noclip[m]	Warr1024: Science is methode, not more but also not less.
17:33	erlehmann	what rubenwardy says
17:33	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Backward compatibility should be about providing a path or options, not about never changing anything.
17:33	rubenwardy	for all I know, this setting could be fundamentally broken and segfault on Windows
17:34	Pexin	sniff forced backward compat? smells like 2000s microsoft
17:34	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Where is the evidence of that?
17:34	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> The problem here is that the burden of proof is structured such that it's impossible to move forward.
17:34	Noclip[m]	"Quantum suicide is a thought experiment in quantum mechanics" (from wikipedia)
17:34	Noclip[m]	-> You never said anything about a thought experiment ...
17:35	rubenwardy	rather than hand waving, it would be appreciated if the actual reason it was disabled could be found - or, if none can be found, then it can be enabled and we'll find out in time
17:36	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Yeah, that would have been nice.
17:36	Pexin	well, in the next release, with all the irrlicht stuff happening, people should expect lots of instability anyway. good opportunity?
17:36	Noclip[m]	"<Warr1024> We have this bizarre "improve everything that can be improved without getting rid of any of the old bugs or behavioral quirks that people might be relying on" mission that's not really actually solvable."
17:36	Noclip[m]	-> Well you have that issue everywhere to some degree.
17:37	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> The reason it was initially disabled was because it was disabled prior to it existing, i.e. I was told that when we add a thing, we always keep the default behavior the same as it was before. The reason it was not enabled since then is anyone's guess; I was not here for most of that.
17:37	rubenwardy	https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/6d61375cc72bad5c569d25c253adca4e3701dd27
17:37	Noclip[m]	"for all I know, this setting could be fundamentally broken and segfault on Windows"
17:37	Noclip[m]	-> Who needs Windows anyways? (Just kidding)
17:37	rubenwardy	disabled since the start
17:37	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Yes, it went in as disabled by default for a probationary period
17:37	rubenwardy	That's not true
17:37	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> one which had no end condition.
17:38	rubenwardy	you don't need to keep the default behaviour as before, not all behaviour is a matter of compatibility
17:38	rubenwardy	https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/2536
17:38	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> I originally wanted to submit it enabled by default so that it would get actual usage and testing, but was told that was wrong.
17:38	rubenwardy	is there an IRC discussion for this? I can't see any context in the GitHub PR
17:39	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> No idea, probably I guess?
17:39	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> This feature was highly bikeshedded when it went in, there was a lot of "but you'll break Minetest's nice pixely look" and "why is my stuff blurry now" talk.
17:40	Desour	is it just me or was github's design changed again a bit?
17:40	rubenwardy	I don't see why it would make stuff blurry? Doesn't it _fix_ pixel art rendering?
17:40	Desour	the line numbers in the diffs seem more black
17:40	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Ironically the demonstrated use, i.e. for inventory images, isn't even relevant anymore, it now only affects things like GUI images, titles, icons, etc. because inventory items themselves are actually 3D rendered now on (at least almost) all platforms and thus subject to hardware AA and not to image handling.
17:41	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> It unbreaks pixel art as much as it's possible to.
17:41	rubenwardy	https://irc.minetest.net/minetest-dev/2015-04-01#i_4208555
17:42	erlehmann	rubenwardy Warr1024 i have found the negative impact of the setting
17:43	Noclip[m]	And?
17:43	erlehmann	with “gui_scaling_filter = false” the menu background pictures seem to load immediately. with “gui_scaling_filter = false” the menu background pictures do not load immediately, but have noticeable lag.
17:43	rubenwardy	V*nessaE imho, you should turn the clean-transparent feature on by default, btw
17:43	rubenwardy	sorry for not mentioning that sooner.
17:43	rubenwardy	h*mmm no i disabled that by default because people were crashing from it
17:44	rubenwardy	is this a different PR?
17:44	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Yes, different
17:44	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Also if people were crashing from it, it seems like maybe we should have gotten that bug fixed and then backed out the "emergency" disabling?
17:44	erlehmann	err
17:44	erlehmann	sorry
17:44	erlehmann	again
17:44	erlehmann	with “gui_scaling_filter = false” the menu background pictures seem to load immediately. with “gui_scaling_filter = true” the menu background pictures do not load immediately, but have noticeable lag.
17:44		erlehmann joined #minetest
17:45	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> I don't know what happened to clean_transparent either. I know the feature exists, and I use it, but I don't know what the default config for it is.
17:45	erlehmann	sorry, i have bad internet
17:45	rubenwardy	we received it
17:45	erlehmann	with “gui_scaling_filter = false” the menu background pictures seem to load immediately. with “gui_scaling_filter = true” the menu background pictures do not load immediately, but have noticeable lag.
17:45	rubenwardy	yes, for the third time :D
17:45	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> tbh I just never really paid much attention to default config, especially since I wasn't a core dev, and I assumed that the correct way to handle config is to tune it to your own liking and your own devices and test it yourself rather than just trusting the defaults.
17:45	erlehmann	that is a good enough justification to not eable it imo
17:46	rubenwardy	eh, the defaults should be good for most users as most users won't dive into them
17:46	erlehmann	rubenwardy i typoed it the first time
17:46	sfan5	rubenwardy: the implementation is sort of a hack
17:46	erlehmann	and with not “not immediately” i mean “entire interface hangs for the better part of a second”
17:47	erlehmann	i think it tries to scale the menu background too?
17:47	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> The implementation is more or less "reference implemenation" level of optimized and could theoretically be improved, it's just beyond me personally
17:47	rubenwardy	This setting had a lack of communication and built up resentment, leading to "spacebar heating up" claims that I don't even know where that came from. If a feature has a bug, there should be an issue for it
17:47	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> ideally in fact it would be better to send these images to the GPU and let the GPU do the filtering in a shader
17:47	rubenwardy	"disabling until it because stable" doesn't work, as it'll never be tested
17:47	erlehmann	that would probably lag even morelol
17:48	erlehmann	well i just tested it. it works, but it slows down the main menu on a machine that can otherwise play minetest just fine (T60)
17:48	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Heh, "built up resentment" sounds kind of like overselling it to me...
17:48	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Unless you are aware of some additional resentment I don't know about.
17:49	erlehmann	Warr1024 let's say you had not the most diplomatic approach
17:49	erlehmann	regardless
17:49	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> I'm aware of my cynicism but that was not due to any one specific issue.
17:50	Noclip[m]	So should I keep that setting on now or turn it back off again?
17:50	rubenwardy	if it performs well for you, keep it on
17:50	rubenwardy	the only issue I can see is performance
17:50	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> It's basically a quality/speed tradeoff
17:50	erlehmann	yeah “gui_scaling_filter = true” delivers a worse experience on low-end machines than some ugly icons do
17:50	Noclip[m]	Only in menus or also ingame?
17:50	erlehmann	i try ingame now
17:50	rubenwardy	in menu
17:50	rubenwardy	and in-game GUIs
17:51	rubenwardy	not when playing the game with GUIs closed, from what I can tell
17:51	erlehmann	ingame i get an error, ding ding ding
17:51	Noclip[m]	How about HUDs which are displayed while playing?
17:51	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> It may ultimately be unrealistic that we expect to ship a single set of fixed settings that work for all clients and provide both speed on low-end systems, and enough quality on high-end systems to satisfy all users.
17:52	* jonadab	wonders whether it's more work to make digiline chests queryable as to their current contents, or to make autocrafters support putting in a recipe with "group:foo" so they can use anything in the group.
17:52	erlehmann	2021-08-25 19:51:04: ERROR[Main]: Irrlicht: Invalid size of image for OpenGL Texture.
17:52	Noclip[m]	Yea, get an error here, too!
17:52	Noclip[m]	Yup, same error.
17:52	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Ah, I've seen that message too, didn't know where it was coming from.
17:52	rubenwardy	the workaround for that is with quality presets
17:52	Pexin	mmmmmmmmmmmmmm autocrafters that use groupssssssssss
17:52	rubenwardy	I have a PR for groups with autocrafters
17:52	sfan5	that error is easy to fix, I looked at the code before
17:52	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> It said "error" but it behaved like a warning so I mostly just ignored it.
17:53	* Noclip[m]	is going to turn the feature off again.
17:53	sfan5	but fundamentally there are other issues with the code that should also be solved
17:53	rubenwardy	Pexin, jonadab: https://gitlab.com/VanessaE/pipeworks/-/merge_requests/12
17:53	erlehmann	Warr1024 a bunch of desktop systems manage to scale icons on systems that have the computing power of a shriveled potato, so minetest should be able to do it
17:53	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Turn the feature off if the error is enough of a problem to you. It hasn't been a problem for me so far.
17:53	Noclip[m]	Ohh wait, the ESC menu in mineclone2 is completely fucked up!
17:53	rubenwardy	That patch is blocked by the fact that it only supports outputs with only one recipe
17:53	erlehmann	“It said "error" but it behaved like a warning so I mostly just ignored it.” is straight up supervillain style ^^
17:54	jonadab	rubenwardy: Oh wow.
17:54	* jonadab	is gonna test that for sure.
17:54	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> It would actually be fairly simple to do an integer-nearest-up-linear-down scaling, esp if there were accelerated primitives. The code I submitted essentially emulates this behavior in a single pass, which means no accel, it happens on the CPU (and actually in fact, the FPU) so it could be optimized by someone who knows about such things.
17:54	erlehmann	Noclip[m], the escape menu?
17:55	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Haha, if by "supervillain" you mean "ordinary user", yeah, I was one of those for most of my MT days.
17:56	erlehmann	oh lol yes the mineclonia inventory interface is also cursed if you do it
17:57	rubenwardy	erlehmann: may I suggest making a forumtopic / ContentDB entry for mineclonia? People on the forums were struggling to find the git for it
17:57	erlehmann	in conclusion, “gui_scaling_filter = false” is probably the right choice as a default, as the “gui_scaling_filter = true” makes menu icons nicer, but breaks pictures in formspecs and makes the main menu laggy.
17:57	erlehmann	rubenwardy ok!
17:57	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> If I could have made it work better, then I would have at the time.
17:57		longerstaff13 joined #minetest
17:57	jonadab	Wait, rubenwardy, that is a LOT of commits.
17:58	rubenwardy	it's a single commit
17:58	rubenwardy	lol
17:58	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Breakage of formspec images sounds new to me, but then, formspecs have gone through a LOT of development since the scaling was introduced.
17:58	jonadab	rubenwardy: Gitlab says it's 69 commits.
17:58	rubenwardy	that's how far it's behind master
17:58	erlehmann	Warr1024 try mineclonia or mcl2 with the setting enabled, press escape or look at the player inventory
17:58	rubenwardy	which isn't necessarily a problem, only if there are conflicts
17:58	rubenwardy	I'll rebase now
17:58	* jonadab	will have to do git cherry -v later.
17:58	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> If it's broken then maybe those should be filed as bugs. Just because there's a bug that's specific to non-default config doesn't mean it's not a legit bug; we aim to support non-default config too.
17:59	MTDiscord	<Jordach> Nice
17:59	jonadab	Oh, I see.
17:59	jonadab	69 commits behind, that's different.
17:59	erlehmann	lewd
17:59	jonadab	Sorry, not used to looking at the gitlab web interface.
17:59	MTDiscord	<Jordach> You mean noice
17:59	jonadab	Normally I use git from the command line.
18:00	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> okay, gimmesec, may take a bit to get one of the mineclone games installed...
18:00	jonadab	I see, commit 3a8982a6 is what I want.
18:00	rubenwardy	there we go, 0 behind master
18:00	MTDiscord	<luatic> Mineclone takes a while to clone
18:00	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> where is mineclonia btw?
18:00	Noclip[m]	lul
18:00	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> I wonder if pulling mineclonia from git will be faster than an MCL2 zip from CDB
18:01	Noclip[m]	Is mineclonia just another name for mineclone or is there actually something with that name?
18:01	MTDiscord	<luatic> Pulling Mineclone is slower than CDB zip, unless the CDB zip contains the full .git dir OFC
18:01	rubenwardy	https://git.minetest.land/Mineclonia/Mineclonia/
18:01	rubenwardy	once you have it git cloned, updating should be faster than CDB zip though
18:01	erlehmann	mineclonia is mineclone 0.71 with less crashes, less lag and less features than mineclone 5
18:01	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> I guess I'll have to see whether git.minetest.land and git are faster or slower than MT and CDB
18:01	rubenwardy	Noclip[m]: mineclonia is a fork of Mineclone 2
18:01	erlehmann	oh and mobs are not broken
18:02	erlehmann	i meant mineclone2 0.71 sorry
18:02	rubenwardy	(ha - "less features" implies that mineclone 5 has uncountable features, which would explain why the fork was necessary)
18:02	Noclip[m]	Why do we have so many mcl2 forks right now?
18:02	rubenwardy	probably because Wuzzy stopped development
18:03	jonadab	Personally, I'm working on a Dreambuilder fork; but I haven't pushed it anyplace public.
18:03	erlehmann	mineclone2 had a “move fast and break things” approach after wuzzy left (mostly due to fleckenstein, who contributed and refactored a lot but did not like reviews, he has since come around i think)
18:03	Noclip[m]	But wuzzy officially gave developement over to other devs.
18:04	rubenwardy	Noclip[m]: yeah, but with a change of management comes a change of practices. As erlehmann has said
18:04	Noclip[m]	erlehmann: ah okay
18:04	erlehmann	also jordan4ibanez (famous through crafter) tried to refactor mobs but stopped halfway through … but he did it on the master branch
18:04	rubenwardy	oh grim
18:04	MTDiscord	<luatic> https://git.minetest.land/Mineclonia/Mineclonia/commit/62d5b547a0ffa3361ab4460d09f22403c3facf87
18:04	MTDiscord	<luatic> smells like ducttape
18:04	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Okay, got it running
18:04	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> what am I looking for for breakage?
18:05	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/880150859189731388/screenshot_20210825_140508.png
18:05	erlehmann	just press escape and look at the buttons
18:05	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> ah, the esc menu?
18:05	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> yeah, the buttons look weird ... 9-patches?
18:05	Noclip[m]	jordan4ibanez = oilboy?
18:05	erlehmann	yes Noclip[m]
18:06	erlehmann	also many mcl2 devs had high-end gaming pcs and wanted to do stuff exactly like minecraft even if detrimental to performance
18:06	erlehmann	like if something drops 15 plant pieces, create 15 object entities instead of one
18:06	jonadab	Oh, eww.
18:07	MTDiscord	<luatic> 15 objects should be nothing for a decent engine
18:07	Noclip[m]	He showed with crafter that he truely has a lot of potential but unfortunately he seems to quiet out of projects quite fast.
18:07	MTDiscord	<luatic> Unfortunately Minetest isn't a decent engine
18:07	erlehmann	well, a bug report that complained about this behaviour freezing the game with an overenchanted sword (looting 32k) was renamed to “post your computer's specs”
18:07	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> 9-patches didn't exist at the time the GUI scaling filter was introduced. I don't see why they should have been broken when using those two together, nevertheless.
18:07	jonadab	Yes, @luatic, but the cumulative effect when somebody builds a farm...
18:07	erlehmann	nah, just harvesting kelp is enough to impact old machines
18:07	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Heh, re: the 15 objects instead of 1, I actually take a compromise position, i.e. there are times when I create 4 objects of 2 items each...
18:08	erlehmann	there was just a lot of drama mainly because the devs had different ideas and the users also
18:08	erlehmann	though i must say i think some drama was extremely stupid
18:09	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> You can't make something that makes everybody happy, ultimately, you just need to figure out where you want to balance things, and for a game with a large enough audience, you'll probably end up with a lot of forks and remakes.
18:09	jonadab	I mean, the only reason to mimic another piece of software THAT precisely would be if you're creating a bug-for-bug clone for compatibility purposes. Which would imply that you intend to be able to load the other software's files (or worlds, in this case).
18:09	erlehmann	like fleck wanting to remove river water and about 100 other things (bc it is not in minecraft 1.12 or so?) and it took a long post from wuzzy to make him see the error of his ways.
18:09	erlehmann	i think everyone works better together now
18:09	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> My stuff hasn't been forked much but I'm starting to see some spiritual remakes...
18:09	Noclip[m]	"well, a bug report that complained about this behaviour freezing the game with an overenchanted sword (looting 32k) was renamed to “post your computer's specs”"
18:09	Noclip[m]	-> lol
18:09	erlehmann	mineclonia is basically people from clamity wanting a stable game with less lag
18:10	erlehmann	and mineclone5 is kay27 and some other devs who think that flecks approach to clone 1 minecraft version perfectly is not fun
18:12	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> It looks like the bug is that 9-patch buttons break when gui_scaling_filter is enabled. It seems like it stretches each image to 1/3 of the space in each dimension, instead of scaling the middle parts up and leaving the ends unscaled.
18:13	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> I have no idea why it would do that; it seems like the 9-patch should have been done such that the filter would end up as a noop.
18:13	erlehmann	in the end, mineclonia is mostly fixing crashes and lag. lag was very bad with mineclone2 because of stuff like “have a globalstep that tells the client to change FOV to X if not sprinting and Y if sprinting” – it is impossible to notice any lag if you test that only on localhost … but it is bad code.
18:13	rubenwardy	Noclip[m]: intensity often leads to burnout
18:13	Noclip[m]	"like fleck wanting to remove river water and about 100 other things (bc it is not in minecraft 1.12 or so?) and it took a long post from wuzzy to make him see the error of his ways."
18:13	Noclip[m]	-> Uff. Thank wuzzy for stepping in then.
18:14	Noclip[m]	*Thanks to wuzzy
18:14	rubenwardy	lol yeah, removing river water would break MT mapgen
18:14	erlehmann	rubenwardy according to his own admission, fleck has learned writing code from reading other mods until he could do it reasonably, not from your book.
18:15	rubenwardy	well, that's also how I learned to mod Minetest
18:15	erlehmann	yeah but the problem was that way he was not aware of some common pitfalls
18:15	erlehmann	he just made stuff that worked (on his machine)
18:15	rubenwardy	the book allows me to share the knowledge I gained from doing so
18:15	Noclip[m]	Ohh while we're at it: Warr1024, has nodecore now sufficient support for riverwater and the valleys mapgen?
18:16	erlehmann	if you want to see the difference in attention to detail in mineclonia, read the commit messages before and after we forked
18:16	MTDiscord	<Jonathon> River water vs water is such a dumpster fire
18:17	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> No support planned specifically for the valleys mapgen. I just didn't specifically disable that option because I guess I didn't want to say you couldn't do it if you were willing to accept the consequences ... but I guess I should probably just disable it after all...
18:17	MTDiscord	<Jonathon> At least you have the option off using one water or the other globally depending on mapgen
18:17	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> There are already twice as many kinds of water in NodeCore as there should be, I don't want to add a 3rd one just because some mapgen decided it needed to do something weird and require yet another kind of water that doesn't mix with other waters.
18:18	erlehmann	btw i don't think fleck is a bad person or something. he has big ideas and strong opinions. and he is not a good leader. but since we forked it was much nicer (because it removed sources of conflict).
18:18	MTDiscord	<Jonathon> Or you could just have mapgen fill in rivers with your dirt equivalent
18:18	erlehmann	also fleck made one of the two important cheat clients (dragonfire, the other is waspsaliva)
18:18	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> I guess I could look into aliasing it with air instead of non-river water, so you could just generate dry riverbeds. Or maybe something like gravel or sand.
18:19	Noclip[m]	"Noclip: intensity often leads to burnout"
18:19	Noclip[m]	-> What are you referring to here?
18:19	MTDiscord	<Jonathon> The other is based on the former
18:19	erlehmann	Warr1024 what is your issue with river water?
18:19	erlehmann	river water is important to make nice fountains ^^
18:20	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Anyway, I'm gonna file an issue about this 9-patch filter thing, unless there's already another one, or someone else wants to...
18:20	MTDiscord	<Jonathon> Honestly the minetest liquid system in general is full of issues with not much control
18:20	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> is that what they're actually called, btw?
18:21	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Yeah, I'm wary of introducing more liquids when I already have so many and there are a lot of issues with how they interact. Especially having a 3rd kind of just water alone would be weird.
18:21	MTDiscord	<Jonathon> Background9 in formspecs
18:21	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> ah, 9 slice, not 9 patch
18:21	MTDiscord	<Jonathon> Yes
18:22	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Huh, looks like it's been examined before but the solution may have been partial? Is that what this means? https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/9896
18:22	erlehmann	Warr1024 thank you for figuring it out
18:23	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> hmm, seems like it's orthogonal to 9-slice actually, maybe just incidental that that was where it was being seen.
18:23	Noclip[m]	"btw i don't think fleck is a bad person or something. he has big ideas and strong opinions. and he is not a good leader. but since we forked it was much nicer (because it removed sources of conflict)."
18:23	Noclip[m]	-> Yea, I don't want to talk bad about fleck either. Since wuzzy left mcl2 there seem to have been a ton of new features to mcl2 which I really like.
18:23	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> It's looking like a new issue.
18:24	Noclip[m]	And in the end Minetest developement should make fun of course!
18:24	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> I make fun of development all the time.
18:25	Noclip[m]	"also fleck made one of the two important cheat clients (dragonfire, the other is waspsaliva)"
18:25	Noclip[m]	-> Yea, that's awsome, too! Isn't waspsaliva a fork of dragonfire?
18:26	erlehmann	waspsaliva does everything cool with client side lua mods
18:26	erlehmann	dragonfire does a lot of stuff with C++ i think?
18:27	erlehmann	IMO the most important distinction is that WS has cheats in the git repo, whereas DF has cheatdb, which is like contentdb for cheats
18:27	erlehmann	i think that was it
18:27	Noclip[m]	Warr1024: You could add river water only as decoration.
18:28	erlehmann	luatic the reason behind https://git.minetest.land/Mineclonia/Mineclonia/commit/62d5b547a0ffa3361ab4460d09f22403c3facf87 is that these objects exist in real-world servers and should not crash the server
18:29	erlehmann	minetest 5.3 allowed people to put shulkers in shulkers due to an inventory switching bug i think
18:29	erlehmann	so naturally … there are “kits”. shulkers loaded with special items.
18:30	erlehmann	but even without that, just putting a few books or enchanted items into a shulker would do the trick
18:30	Noclip[m]	I've never used a MT cheat client. Can you recommend them? Are they usefull for creative mode or dev stuff?
18:30	rubenwardy	they're useful for cheating
18:30	rubenwardy	for creative, not so much really - you can already fly in creative
18:30	erlehmann	Noclip[m], waspsaliva is very useful for building stuff. cora (the main dev) has some neat hacks.
18:30	rubenwardy	they're useful for testing for vulnerabilities
18:31	rubenwardy	oh really, what does it have? I've only tried DF
18:31	erlehmann	if you ever see heart shaped nether portals, they were autospammed by cora with a csm
18:31	erlehmann	(probably, i made a few myself)
18:31	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11574
18:32	erlehmann	Noclip[m], rubenwardy so a thing that sounds simple, but is so cool for building is “place this node in my currently selected slot on every node of type x”
18:32	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> DF = dragonfire is always confusing to me, because I think I run into more dwarf fortress players than forked client users.
18:32	erlehmann	which means you can for example build a tower very easily
18:33	erlehmann	just make the base outline on the ground, then repeatedly spam the “put stone brick on existing stone brick” function
18:33	erlehmann	until you reach the desired height
18:33	erlehmann	rubenwardy a lot of that stuff is useful for creative
18:33	erlehmann	because cora is super rich on many servers she is active on due to autominers and dupes
18:34	erlehmann	so she is basically playing half-creative mode ^^
18:34	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Heh, feels like a number of those should be made available as MT server-side mods if they're really that useful, so that people using the official client (which has broader distribution channels in some cases) could benefit too.
18:34	erlehmann	na, the placement mods are really client side mods
18:34	erlehmann	also there are waypoints and copy-paste-mode (i think it was: you build something, the csm records it, you can play it back)
18:35	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> I'm not saying they ARE server-side mods, I'm saying they COULD be.
18:35	erlehmann	whoever believes “cheat clients” are mainly used for cheating should look at the stuff that exists on clamity server
18:35	erlehmann	i fail to see how “record my personal waypoints” could be server side. or “chat in an encrypted way with my teammate”
18:35	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> like, as in, I wouldn't mind seeing those features become available elsewhere, where appropriate and not considered cheating, and not require CSM stuff necessarily.
18:36	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> e2e encrypted chat probably couldn't be. Personal waypoint recording, auto-building, etc. could be.
18:36	erlehmann	no, because then others can know your waypoints? also you could not record a schematic on one server and place it on the other.
18:36	specing	Why would these be server side mods? That's unnecessary load
18:37	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> ?
18:37	specing	Why record personal waypoints on the server? Waste of disk space
18:37	Noclip[m]	The clients offer e2ee chat?
18:37	Noclip[m]	The argument with placing it on another server seems valid.
18:38	erlehmann	also which server is going to install killaura
18:38	sfan5	none, because server admins probably consider that cheating
18:38	erlehmann	client side mods with an extended API (a la waspsaliva) are really cool
18:39	Noclip[m]	specing: That's probably nothing compared to other stuff the server is already doing like generating chunks and storing them on the disk.
18:39	erlehmann	https://repo.or.cz/waspsaliva.git
18:41	Noclip[m]	I think my main issue with 'being against cheat clients' is that it kind of conflicts with the ideas of free software.
18:41	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Well I hope someone can fix the gui_scaling_filter eventually because it'll be a shame if we have to choose between broken 9-slice images vs. jagged menu icons. As it is, either of them is probably livable for me, but neither one will give a very good impression of the engine to new users.
18:41	erlehmann	to quote someone who knows it better than me “the c++ hacks in both dragonfire and waspsal are about the same”
18:42	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> I've seen a lot of people play the game with settings that are probably not too far from default, but with a lot of variation in results, possibly because some people just set all their settings to "max", but there are hidden settings needed to make those look right in some particular cases (like for fixing filtration on some systems)
18:42	erlehmann	Noclip[m] the clamity servers and some other encourage users to try cheat clients
18:42	erlehmann	Noclip[m] just come to clamity anarchy
18:43	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Where does the name from waspsaliva even come from anyway
18:43	Noclip[m]	Well I'm not for using cheat clients on survival servers either.
18:44	erlehmann	Warr1024 stuff like randomscreenshot can not be a server side mod or undying
18:44	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Yes I never said all things should be server side
18:44	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> I just said that some of these features sound like they'd be nice to see available elsewhere
18:44	erlehmann	Noclip[m] you can play clamity with or without cheat clients. there are not many servers with such a destroyed spawn.
18:46	Noclip[m]	erlehmann: No I mean cheat clients should be forbidden on serious survival servers. But I have also nothing against having servers which explicitly allow cheat clients in survival, I just wouldn't call them "serious survival servers" then.
18:47	specing	look at "cheat clients" as "improved user experience" clients
18:47	erlehmann	Noclip[m] oh clamity is serious business
18:47	specing	you aren't cheating with auto-eat, you are just automating menial labour
18:47	erlehmann	when i got to clamity first spawn was a desert of sponges with a sponge grid in the sky above
18:48	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> It makes sense to disallow cheating, it just depends on what is actually "cheating" in terms of the game experience. Not all mechanics are equally important.
18:48	erlehmann	because they wanted to prevent people from flooding spawn again
18:48	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> I've seen people use cheat clients, and whether or not they actually do something that's actually cheating varies.
18:49	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> The cheaters I've seen so far basically ruin the game experience for themselves and end up quitting anyway, so I don't think I've even had to issue penalties.
18:49	Desour	what server owners don't seem to know: it's cheap to protect the whole world above the spawn
18:50	erlehmann	from my point of view, the debate cheat client vs regular cient hinges on your personal stance regarding the neoliberal robinsonade-style gameplay that minecraft-style games exhibit
18:50	erlehmann	https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1555412016655678
18:50	Noclip[m]	But what I do not like is discrimination or harassment against the developers of cheat clients because 1. discrimination and harassment are bad in general and 2. Minetest being free software means that everyone is allowed to change the client however they want to.
18:50	Desour	there's no need to allow players to build stuff above the spawn, like shadow making platforms or sand
18:50	erlehmann	> This narrative of development is the product of the game’s eponymous mechanics. Players, beset by the literal forces of darkness, must exercise their mastery over nature to produce utopia. In this, players resemble enlightenment heroes in the mold of Robinson Crusoe, who through their industry can produce all the comforts of home.
18:50	erlehmann	> What the novel provided for the rising 18th-century bourgeoisie, the game provides for those under late capital.
18:51	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Haha, yeah, it's been fun subverting that narrative without even knowing I was.
18:52	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> I guess that may be related to why cheat clients are kind of useless in my game, which is probably also one of the reasons why they don't bother me that much.
18:53	erlehmann	in minecraft and many minetest games the player experiences non-alienated labor; players exploit the environment for resources and colonize the world to create their personal utopia. resistance to that is seen as illegitimate – mobs are to be tamed (or: enslaved, incarcerated) if possible, killed if they are a threat (or when the player feels like it)
18:54	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Using a cheat client is sort of like sprinkling salt on your food before tasting it...
18:54	erlehmann	exile is a game that pushes this narrative a lot
18:54	erlehmann	as are mineclone2 and similar games
18:55	erlehmann	in-game, players do labor. that labor is probably experienced as fun partly because players always get rewards for working hard.
18:55	erlehmann	but many players do not question the conditions of that labor or react even hostile to questioning it.
18:55	Noclip[m]	"<Warr1024> Using a cheat client is sort of like sprinkling salt on your food before tasting it..."
18:55	Noclip[m]	-> That's actually a pretty good fitting comparison!
18:56	erlehmann	a game like this “shows players an achievable world and rewards them for taking steps toward it. The resource collection, construction, and expansion that constitute the game’s core activities are thus always justified” (that is from the article i posted)
18:57	erlehmann	from my point of view, players feel free and happy as long as no one questions the boundaries
18:57	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Yeah, the weird thing about NodeCore is that I think it contains that narrative, but there's an odd sort of futility to it. There is a strong hardcore progression-oriented loop, but what a lot of the reviewers have gotten out of it is something strangely zen.
18:58	erlehmann	if someone dupes or automines they are better at the goal of acquiring resources, but they do no longer fit the neoliberal agenda. they no longer do “honest work” that gets rewarded, they get rewarded for doing “dishonest work”, like creating client side mods.
18:58	erlehmann	or just being weird enough to run them
18:59	Noclip[m]	What I really don't want to see are proprietary rootkits inside the kernel to enforce anticheat. And I don't care how much cheaters are a problem for the game here, there are just things that are not okay. (This however hasn't much todo with Minetest anymore.)
18:59	erlehmann	Warr1024 i always wondered how to subvert it more subtly and it might be that you have achieved that. might also not be. nodecore was too hard for me. but so was exile, also.
19:00	Noclip[m]	(Some Windows games do have such kernel rootkits for anticheat purposes.)
19:00	erlehmann	Noclip[m] it is part of forcing you to not question the conditions of your in-game labor
19:00	erlehmann	you are allowed to be free in the game … but no, not that free!
19:00	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> I think in some ways the subversion of the story is inherent to me from all sandbox games, because to me the point was always to play and have fun, but getting better at the game means you reach the end of the fun faster.
19:01	erlehmann	as i experience it, fleck and cora are the people who are most similar to the protagonists of the matrix
19:01	Noclip[m]	By the way: What does "zen" even mean?
19:01	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Hell if I know
19:01	erlehmann	Noclip[m] it's some thing connected to maintaining motorcycles i think
19:01	MTDiscord	<Noodlemire> Definitely a different Zen
19:02	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> I dunno about motorcycles, but there's glass furnace maintenance in NodeCore, and that at least can be sort of meditative.
19:02	erlehmann	Warr1024 i bet you can make nodecore even stranger if you figure out what else you can subvert https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1555412016655678
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19:02	MTDiscord	<Noodlemire> Anyways, IIRC Zen is a Buddhist concept of reaching ultimate inner peace/happiness.
19:03	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Heh, well, I don't know how "superiority over the world's other inhabitants" can be relevant to NodeCore when the concept of "inhabitant" is sort of turned around anyway.
19:04	erlehmann	the question i want to ask people who curse cheat client: is mining several stacks of cobble manually qualitatively different from a clicker game?
19:04	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Players do not inhabit the world, but there are also no other "animal" creatures either.
19:04	Noclip[m]	Ah yea, the nodecore glass furnace minigame which no one completed so far xD
19:04	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> I mean, some of us have come fairly close
19:05	Noclip[m]	Who knows, maybe you could also spend 10k hours on nodecore glass furnaces?! xD
19:05	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> But most people reach a point where they know that further progress is achievable, but not necessarily critical.
19:05	erlehmann	Warr1024 you can mostly see it in games that emulate minecraft that the mobs are strangely only there as resource collectors
19:05	Noclip[m]	Warr1024: There is usually always room for optimization ...
19:05	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> One of the reasons why we DO include "clicker" content in games is also because sometimes you want a vibe check.
19:06	celeron55_	mining several stacks of cobble is an experience
19:06	erlehmann	i know three mineclonia servers where players put villagers into very small prison sells to maximize the extracted value (and so they can not get away)
19:06	celeron55_	not really a game, in a strict sense
19:06	Noclip[m]	How many games are there which are like minecraft appart from most minetest games?
19:06	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Yeah, mobs as resource collectors is how I saw them in MC. That's one of the reasons why I figured "why mobs in the first place?" If all I want is a mechanic that involves players having to solve some kind of puzzle in order to establish an ongoing supply of some resource, surely I could do this in some other way.
19:06	celeron55_	unless there are mobs or something to make it harder
19:07	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> A game is not required to have experiences that all tie tightly into the game's core design; it's okay to include some stuff that accounts for the fact that players are human too.
19:07	erlehmann	Noclip[m] there are a few 2d iso robinsonade games that precede even minecraft
19:07	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Well, it's certainly unavoidable at a certain point, at least.
19:07	erlehmann	like "schiffbruch.exe"
19:08	erlehmann	https://www.dplate.de/games/schiffbruch
19:08	Noclip[m]	"i know three mineclonia servers where players put villagers into very small prison sells to maximize the extracted value (and so they can not get away)"
19:08	Noclip[m]	-> Well I did exactly that in real minecraft a while (I think over a year) ago.
19:09	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> In a way it's sort of unfair to accuse sandbox games of pushing this narrative when they're actually some of the games that do a better job of offering an alternative; in some games all you do is conquer and there is no "stop and smell the roses and just learn to coexist" sort of alternative.
19:10	Noclip[m]	I could then get invinite amounts of max enchanted diamond armor + tools for fairly low prices from the villagers.
19:10	erlehmann	well, the “largely nonnarrative sandbox game” lets players make their own story, but it still gives the framework within that happens
19:11	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Heh, I mean, the exploitation of villagers is also sort of a subversion of the game creator's intention that we take these things seriously as beings when we know that they ARE really just simulated mechanical entities.
19:11	erlehmann	it is similar to simcity being coded so that there is only a specific kind of tax regime that is successful (rooted in the ideology of the developers, not cold hard data)
19:11	erlehmann	Warr1024 the really important thing to subvert is this:
19:11	erlehmann	> The stated goal of player freedom is seductive in that it flatters mythologies of bootstrapped success: The game world is available for the player to transform. The player can become a neoliberal hero.
19:12	erlehmann	> freedom to profit globally rests on the limitations of the freedoms of others through technological dominance. Player relationships to the gamework are thus predicated on a sense of entitlement and guaranteed by their ability to see in-game resistance as illegitimate.
19:12	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> With NodeCore I've actually been sort of forced to push a narrative of unlocking puzzle elements, because otherwise people just join and don't know what to do; they're very much conditioned to be told this particular story. After a while, though, the hint system starts to fail to offer clear direction, and so players start to find their own value.
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19:13	cora	its unethical to imprison villagers if you can just dupe your stuff ^^
19:13	erlehmann	there she is, the goddess herself
19:13	erlehmann	cora, only then?
19:13	cora	well .. i mean
19:14	specing	hi cora
19:14	Noclip[m]	I'm fairly sure most of Minecraft's vanilla farms weren't intended by Mojang xD
19:14	erlehmann	on one server where the players do it, they know dupes
19:14	cora	i protect them from z's
19:14	cora	lol
19:14	erlehmann	and the admin gives freely out /give privs
19:14	erlehmann	they still imprison the villagers
19:15	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> The ethical way to treat villagers is to mod them so that they actually find the forced labor fulfilling.
19:15	cora	um
19:15	cora	i think they might prefer imprisonment over that tbh
19:15	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Let's not lose sight of the fact that anthropomorphizing them and projecting our own values onto the villagers is also pretty unhealthy.
19:15	cora	i think its safe to say they dont want to be reprogrammed
19:16	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> I think it's probably safe to say they didn't want to be programmed in the first place
19:16	cora	fair
19:16	Noclip[m]	"the hint system starts to fail to offer clear direction, and so players start to find their own value."
19:16	Noclip[m]	-> That's where emergence takes over the game ...
19:17	erlehmann	i think we can probably all agree on “What unites most player activities is their focus on work, specifically the work of transforming the game world to facilitate resource accumulation.”
19:17	erlehmann	there are very little exceptions to that
19:17	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Well, the idea of subverting the usual villager narratives seems like it's gotta be pretty hard to do in either a game that has villagers intended to closely mimic the behavior of another game that doesn't subvert it (MCL-family) or a game that does not have villagers (NC)
19:17	erlehmann	inside the box is an exception
19:17	erlehmann	but nodecore, exile, most minetest games favor the neoliberal utopia
19:18	erlehmann	even if they are not trying to clone minecraft
19:18	erlehmann	it may be a genre thing
19:18	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> I think in NodeCore, work exists purely for work's sake, i.e. there is no value in resource accumulation itself other than unlocking other work. Players may choose whether the work has inherent value to them, and how far they want to take it.
19:19	Noclip[m]	"its unethical to imprison villagers if you can just dupe your stuff ^^"
19:19	Noclip[m]	-> Minecraft villagers are just some stupid and fairly simple algorithm so go and imprison them as much as you like.
19:19	cora	well
19:20	cora	its not unthinkable there might be a way smarter than you being that would say the same about you ^^ dont want to get too philosophical here but who are we to say really :P
19:20	erlehmann	as i said before, being against devs like fleck & cora creating tools that make useless busywork go away represent an ideological opposition to getting rewarded without “honest” work
19:20	Noclip[m]	How are dupes even possible? Is this some sort of 0day in minetest?
19:21	cora	there have been a number of dupes
19:21	erlehmann	yeah
19:21	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> In a way I think I don't see any of the work in NodeCore as "honest." The ultimate reward, in theory, would be to be able to create your own ideal space, while also leaving the majority of the world unspoiled, but I think that would require a herculean effort ... and there are ways in which it's not even really possible (e.g. you never get back the time you spent)
19:22	erlehmann	i recently found a dupe that mostly requires wood and cobble (it is a variation of another one that was more complex)
19:22	erlehmann	not telling more ^^
19:22	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> You do a thing and yes, there are some rewards ... but there are also negative externalities, and even with assistance from the game mechanics in theory, it's virtually impossible to break even.
19:23	erlehmann	Warr1024 if the work is not honest, then cheatclients are not dishonest
19:23	erlehmann	but cheating at nodecore, lol. it is a puzzle game.
19:23	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Heh, in a way, I sort of wonder if you don't really need to subvert a neoliberal narrative or whatever ,you just need to let it play out and let players see the real consequences.
19:23	erlehmann	you probably mostly cheat yourself that way.
19:24	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> NodeCore isn't exactly a puzzle game, though it's probably more puzzle game than not.
19:24	erlehmann	Warr1024 the real consequences of a neoliberal expansionist ideology in the game are … the player shapes the world?
19:24	cora	I think "cheating" (as in doing things the vanilla client can't do) is bad in one scenario: you ruin the fun for other people with it. for that reason i'm really only doing it on servers that more or less explicitly allow it ..
19:24	sfan5	Noclip[m]: there's one death-related dupe in the engine in certain conditions I'm aware of, the rest will have grown on MCL's lawn
19:25	cora	that seems like a fair assessment ^^
19:25	Noclip[m]	"its not unthinkable there might be a way smarter than you being that would say the same about you ^^ dont want to get too philosophical here but who are we to say really :P"
19:25	Noclip[m]	-> I wouldn't really have a choice then anyways. Shit happens.
19:26	cora	i think thats a little short sighted
19:26	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> erlehmann: in my experience, the consequence is that the player shapes the world, and then discovers that it didn't make them happy.
19:27	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> What players seem to take away is the experience and the knowledge, but the material rewards aren't really fulfilling.
19:28	erlehmann	> death-related dupe in the engine in certain conditions I'm aware of
19:28	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> CDB has tags for "Player vs Player" and "Player vs Environment" but NodeCore was always sort of a "Player vs Self" game.
19:28	erlehmann	sfan5, is it a crashdupe or not?
19:28	erlehmann	its so funny to figure out if other people know the same dupes
19:28	sfan5	it does not involve the server crashing
19:28	Noclip[m]	"[...] it's virtually impossible to break even."
19:28	erlehmann	that's funny
19:28	Noclip[m]	fail
19:29	erlehmann	what do you mean
19:33	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> If you're going to criticize games for playing into some kind of dominant narrative, then what exactly are you proposing to do counter to it, though? What are you planning on doing in Mineclonia?
19:34	Noclip[m]	"[...] it's virtually impossible to break even."
19:34	Noclip[m]	-> Emergence is bascially a result from complexity. In order to solve a more complex problem you need to be smarter. So to reach a higher level in the game of complexity you need to be smarter. The halting machine is bascially a cheat client for the game of complexity.
19:34	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> It seemed like that game's premise doesn't really offer much room for it.
19:35	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Noclip, not exactly sure what you mean there?
19:37	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> I think some of the confusion might be the player/world duality/separation thing in NodeCore. Many modern games have a "role playing" element to them, where you assume the identity of an in-game character. NodeCore doesn't do that, your "character" is just an ephemeral avatar for you and has very few properties of its own.
19:37	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> So talking about what happens inside the world when you play and what happens inside the player are really sort of separate things.
19:37	erlehmann	> If you're going to criticize games for playing into some kind of dominant narrative, then what exactly are you proposing to do counter to it, though? What are you planning on doing in Mineclonia?
19:37	erlehmann	Warr1024 nothing. as long as “kinda like minecraft” exists, it is that way.
19:38	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Hmm, yeah, NodeCore is itself a "kinda like minecraft" though with more "kinda" and less "like"
19:39	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> I really never set out to subvert the narrative specifically, I just set out to subvert the mechanics.
19:39	Noclip[m]	I'm not anymore 100% sure but iirc you should be able to transform the halting machine into a machine which can solve any theoretical problem. Or rather reformulate every problem so that the halting machine could provide it's solution.
19:39	erlehmann	i think “inside the box” sidesteps the issue. as do skyblock games, to an extent.
19:39	Noclip[m]	(Halting machine is of course a machine which solves the halting problem.)
19:39	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> I thought the idea behind the "halting machine" was that it was a paradox, thus proving that it itself couldn't actually exist.
19:39	erlehmann	> So talking about what happens inside the world when you play and what happens inside the player are really sort of separate things.
19:39	erlehmann	no, not according to olia lialina
19:40	erlehmann	the user has to be understood as a part of your computing environment. the user is turing complete.
19:40	erlehmann	http://contemporary-home-computing.org/turing-complete-user/
19:41	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Haha, how ironic that eliminating the user is something I'm always strugglling to do.
19:41	erlehmann	Warr1024 i suggest to read that essay
19:41	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Eh ... I guess I can put it on my list
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19:43	erlehmann	> General Purpose Users can write an article in their e-mail client, layout their business card in Excel and shave in front of a web cam. They can also find a way to publish photos online without flickr, tweet without twitter, like without facebook, make a black frame around pictures without instagram, remove a black frame from an instagram picture and even wake up at 7:00 without a “wake up at 7:00” app.
19:43	erlehmann	and most importantly, the general purpose user can dupe items in vanilla minetest without needing a cheat client
19:43	Noclip[m]	"i think thats a little short sighted"
19:43	Noclip[m]	-> How would I protect myself against a being that is a milion times more inteligent than I am?
19:44	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Why do you assume that you'd need to protect yourself from a being that's much more intelligent?
19:46	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Kind of reminds me of Roko's Basilisk...
19:49	erlehmann	btw resource collection and construction games like dwarf fortress do make it easy to push the neoliberal agenda
19:50	erlehmann	3D lego games were never such a hit as minecraft
19:50	erlehmann	to be fair, no game was
19:50	MTDiscord	<Jordach> because the controls were ass and there was no actual goal
19:50	erlehmann	well, they did not have the “you have to work for your shit” part
19:51	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> So it sounds kind of like neoliberalism is basically a prerequisite for western mass consumption now.
19:51	erlehmann	no mining, no crafting
19:51	erlehmann	the lego 3d gaming experience is more a 3d editor toy than a game
19:51	cora	well ig there is creative mode
19:51	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Yeah, MC added creative mode to cater to that use-case but that was an afterthought
19:52	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> it was really the survival gameplay where it took off
19:52	erlehmann	well, dwarf fortress and cataclysm DDA arguably also do it
19:52	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> well, it was an "afterthought" in the sense of reviving it, not that it didn't exist before
19:53	erlehmann	i like the game loop
19:53	erlehmann	day/night
19:53	erlehmann	with evil mobs spawning at night
19:53	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> I think if you want to subvert those ingrained player expectations, if you do it too blatantly then you'll basically lose your audience. Hell, just giving away MT for free without trying to gain "marketshare" or "revenue" is confusing enough to a lot of players.
19:53	erlehmann	and if the player does not construct shelter, they die
19:53	erlehmann	exile forces you into it even more
19:53	erlehmann	RULE THE ENVIRONMENT OR DIE exile screams in the players face, metaphorically
19:54	MTDiscord	<Jordach> Exile: artificial difficulty is best difficulty
19:54	erlehmann	btw, how to get wet clay for water pots?
19:54	erlehmann	i only ever get salty wet lay except once or twice
19:54	erlehmann	at the same time, exile is so unforgiving
19:55	erlehmann	and makes the things it suggests might bring the player nearer to any goal (don't die?) hard or impossible
19:55	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> I always found it weird that NodeCore and Exile both get crossover players who are looking for a "hardcore" experience, but the games take pretty much diametrically opposite approaches to "survival" mechanics.
19:55	erlehmann	find a bunch of spiders in most other games: they are resources
19:55	erlehmann	find a spider nest in exile: better not touch them and get away fast
19:56	Noclip[m]	"<Warr1024> I thought the idea behind the "halting machine" was that it was a paradox, thus proving that it itself couldn't actually exist."
19:56	Noclip[m]	-> Yes, it cannot exist. If it could it would basically be a being with an unlimited inteligence and thus also a cheat client for the game of complexity. I think it should be able to solve any problem which you throw at it nearly instantly.
19:56	erlehmann	exile also makes it so hard to build and mine
19:57	erlehmann	just have hermione solve it and retcon it using the time machine she reverse engineered in 8th grade
19:57	erlehmann	(i heard she is very smart)
19:57	cora	you should really read hpmor lol
19:58	erlehmann	i know ^^
19:58	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> I haven't had a lot of experience playing exile, but the part that I do remember was mostly walking back home from spawn due to an extended drought and repeatedly dying of thirst.
19:58	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Needless to say, I did not find that part of the experience engaging
19:59	erlehmann	Warr1024 i think the thing with open world games is that they suggest a narrative of technological advancement that makes it possible to extend the players mastery over the world. what is “hardcore” is mostly dangling that in front of the player but making it difficult to impossible to achieve it.
19:59	erlehmann	which, granted, mirrors the unfairness of the real world
19:59	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Using survival mechanics as an easy intuitive motivator for players seemed like a logical idea but I guess I felt like it was overplayed elsewhere already.
20:00	erlehmann	well, technically you only need a starting point
20:01	erlehmann	you might even be able to engineer an impurity in gameplay
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20:01	erlehmann	CDDA default start is: you are in a shelter surrounded by zombies
20:01	erlehmann	so you have to learn how to quickly get stuff and hit or run
20:01	erlehmann	kinda mirrors a lot of the gameplay
20:04	independent56	What are the ethics of posters like "Things getting tough? We can help. Samaritans - 116 123" placed on dangerous places, places where one can be found to commit suicide? Do they mock, or do they add realism?
20:04	erlehmann	what
20:05	erlehmann	independent56 if you want a person not to commit suicide, mockery may not be the best idea
20:05	erlehmann	independent56 i suggest deferring it to professionals if you have the time
20:05	independent56	I'm not mocking the person. I may be mocking a real life charity
20:05	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Sounds like maybe a thing you don't want to tackle in a game
20:06	cora	do you think such a poster makes them more or less likely to do it ?
20:06	independent56	I mean, i just want realism
20:06	cora	i tend to think that it probably doesnt change how likely they are to do it
20:06	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> There's probably some realism you don't want, esp. if it's going to get you involved in more controversy than you really wanted.
20:06	erlehmann	“do you think the existence of the /kill command requires suicidal ideation on part of the developer?”
20:06	cora	think of it as being there for the ones that decide not to do it
20:07	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> If it's enough to make you really question it, then I wouldn't do it unless you want other people to be asking you some potentially-very-difficult questions too.
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20:07	independent56	I mean, for the posters to be realistic, they have to be palced in dangerous areas
20:07	erlehmann	what is dangerous
20:07	erlehmann	the nether?
20:08	cora	archway towers lol
20:08	erlehmann	i would argue that labor as play in a game produces economic fantasies
20:08	erlehmann	where inequalities of race and class and gender do not exist
20:09	erlehmann	labor is always rewarded
20:09	erlehmann	any failure can be offset with more labor
20:09	erlehmann	idealized capitalism
20:10	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> They wouldn't be a very effective escape if they weren't.
20:10	Noclip[m]	Warr1024, Consider this: You map mathematical symboles through something like ascii/unicode/latex onto bits so that each combination of bits represents a mathematical equation. Now you have a differential equation which you need to solve. You create a blueprint for a machine which would try for every possible equation beginning with '0' if it solves the differential equation. If it does the machine halts but if it doesn't the machine keeps
20:10	Noclip[m]	going. your machine will probably be limited [...]
20:10	erlehmann	what
20:10	independent56	I mean,there is a bridge over tracks. And one can be expected to commit suicide by jumping onto said tracks
20:10	erlehmann	can be expected?
20:11	independent56	*A suicidal one
20:11	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Basically you're saying you're building a model train station, and you want to mimic reality as closely as possible, right down to the suicide prevention posters you're seeing in real life, and now you're wondering whether that might be a little TOO real?
20:12	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> It's like if you were building a scale model of the Foxconn factory and had to decide whether to include the nets they have around the building to stop people from committing suicide by jumping off the roof.
20:12	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> That sounds like a pretty tricky subject to tackle.
20:13	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Noclip it seems as though your message was (ironically) clippped...
20:13	Noclip[m]	[...] to a specific amount of bits so it would at some point run out of bits. As we want the machine to halt only when a correct equation has been found we program it to start at the beginning again after it run out of bits. [...]
20:14	Noclip[m]	Warr1024: I'm clipping it myself as I'm writing.
20:14	independent56	It is. And i struggle to comprehend the ethics. So, i am asking you if it is mockery towards the charities to simulate suicide postrs in a simple game.
20:15	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> I don't know if I can say what it is or what it isn't, but I'm fairly sure that if enough people see it, some will see it one way, some will see it another, and others may see it a way we didn't even necessarily anticipate.
20:15	rubenwardy	Warr1024: DragonFire, WaspsSaliva. Same pattern, later is a fork of the former
20:15	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> I'm also not sure that the idea of NOT including them is necessarily "safe" either, especially if you're very faithful to every other aspect.
20:15	rubenwardy	not sure why it's a wasp
20:15	rubenwardy	but also not sure why it's a dragon \o/
20:15	independent56	Hmm, makes sense. I am not that faithul to all other apsects: my hiking path is straight as a ruler.
20:18	independent56	but i feel suicide posters are an important addition. My hope is that they make 90% of passerbys say "hmm, nice", and maybe some may say "Yeah, maybe i should call them".
20:18	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> About all I know about the subject is that I've seen people say "content warning: discussion of suicide" but I've never seen "content warning: blatantly avoiding discussion of suicide" so it seems like omitting them might be less likely to get you into dangerous territory with a sensitive subject.
20:18	independent56	makes sense
20:18	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> It all depends on what your goals are, too, i.e. do you feel strongly that it's a subject that SHOULD be discussed, and do you feel equipped to do so, and to handle any controversy that comes your way as a result?
20:19	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> I personally wouldn't, but I guess I do admire the people who do difficult things for the benefit of the rest of us.
20:19	independent56	yeah, i might as well remove all mention of them.
20:20	Noclip[m]	[...] Per definition if we give a blueprint of another machine (the one I just described) and a specific problem (the differential equation) as inputs to the halting machine it will tell us within a limited amount of time wether the blueprint-machine would ever halt or keep running forever. If it halts then there must be a solution to the diff-equation which begins with '0' and if it doesn't then there is no solution which begins with '0'.
20:20	Noclip[m]	[...]
20:20	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> I mean ultimately we're making games and stuff; trying to solve these big problems might be a tad ambitious.
20:21	erlehmann	independent56 use a real poster in the game and delete the entire home directory if the user commits suicite
20:21	erlehmann	suicide
20:21	independent56	Yeah XD. I just want a world people can use as a drug, a place to escape from the monotones of life (as i regularky do)
20:21	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> The whole thing about games pushing a neoliberal fantasy is interesting food for thought, but I doubt I'm going to understand how to use that immediately, anyway.
20:22	erlehmann	you can see the ideal capitalism thing on servers like catlandia pretty well
20:22	erlehmann	everything is colonized
20:22	erlehmann	and there are stores at spawn
20:22	rubenwardy	I made the first store on RedCrab. Fun times
20:22	erlehmann	my friend had the idea to make as store that accepts payment only in non-renewable dirt blocks, to encourage topsoil griefing :3
20:23	rubenwardy	well, it was fun until a server bug wiped spawn off the map, along with most of my inventory
20:23	erlehmann	some time ago i went onto some spanish server and made a thing that gave out items one-by-one if you pressed a button
20:23	erlehmann	then protected it with a protection block
20:24	erlehmann	for quite some time people were not playing the game in the regular way, but pressing the button in hopes of getting good items
20:24	erlehmann	(i had the button connected to a dupestash via hopper)
20:24	erlehmann	then an admin showed up and banned me
20:24	erlehmann	i think that person had no sense of humor
20:24	Noclip[m]	[...] If there is a solution beginning with '0' we make a new blueprint which starts with '00' and if there isn't then we make a new blueprint which starts with '1'. We repeat that process until we either have our full solution (for example '001011101001[...]01001') or until we can savely say that there is no solution within our limited amount of bits.
20:25	erlehmann	making a clicker game is a high art form!
20:25	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> I mean, the idea of a clicker game as satire isn't exactly lost on me... :-/
20:25	erlehmann	well, mostly i hate protection blocks
20:25	independent56	Oooof... where can i find more about this bug?
20:25	erlehmann	independent56 which bug?
20:26	independent56	The one that removed the spawn
20:26	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Yeah, NodeCore's stance on protection mods is basically "compatible, but discouraged"
20:26	rubenwardy	independent56: it was around 2013 I believe - basically, the host ran out of storage and the server started dropping all the chunks it touched. My shop was at spawn, so was lost
20:26	Noclip[m]	Warr1024: If I didn't miss something here then this should be one way how you could use a halting machine to solve every existing differential equation.
20:26	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> There's actually an anti-protection mod that's used on most of the servers that causes player inventory to be left behind in-world when they leave, and I've just been trying to figure out a smooth way to integrate it into the core game.
20:27	rubenwardy	also, something I was working on a while back: https://capitalismgame.rubenwardy.com/
20:27	independent56	Wow... has this archaic feature gone?
20:27	rubenwardy	I had shops, companies, banks, and land ownership working. The main trouble was building the craft tree up, it was too much work for the gain
20:27	Noclip[m]	I hope I explaination is at least somewhat understandable.
20:27	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Noclip: Haha, sorry, I'm not sure if I can read and parse all that, but I don't doubt that there are ways you can turn a lot of paradoxical constructs into general-purpose infinitely-powerful solving machines. Time travel is a good one too.
20:27	independent56	rubenwardy, wow... i always thought it used a different game engine
20:28	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> I kind of forgot why we ended up talking about the halting problem though.
20:29	erlehmann	> shops, companies, banks, and land ownership
20:29	erlehmann	lol
20:29	erlehmann	humans get an open world and they make capitalism dioramas out of it
20:29	independent56	Which is the point of creative servers: free access to all
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20:33	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> I feel like the "capitalism diorama" thing is something I've heard before elsewhere...
20:34	rubenwardy	because it's an interesting optimisation problem
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20:36	Noclip[m]	"<Warr1024> I kind of forgot why we ended up talking about the halting problem though."
20:36	Noclip[m]	-> I didn't made this clear in the first place: A machine which can solve any solvable problem in a limited amount of time cannot exist. Therefore a cheat client for games which are (purely) based on complexity/emergence cannot exist. If Nodecore is strongly based on complexity/emergence then a serious cheat client for Nodecore cannot exist.
20:37	independent56	Worldedit is teaching me my times tables... especially when i am building supports for a boring viaduct
20:37	rubenwardy	you can reduce the problem into individual actions that can be cheat protected
20:38	rubenwardy	the combination of these actions may constitute griefing, but not necessarily cheating
20:38	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Oh, okay, haha, yeah, a cheat client for NodeCore would probably be a bit silly. I mean, it's possible to "cheat", but (1) doing it with a specific client probably isn't useful, and (2) it is kind of counterproductive to a lot of the reason why people generally play in the first place.
20:38	rubenwardy	there are client-side only cheats that you can't protect again - anything that multiplies skill or reveals information
20:38	Noclip[m]	TL;DR: As long as you keep a strong focus on emergence in Nodecore the game will be it's own unbreakable anticheat.
20:39	independent56	I only play for the FULL IMMERSSION: Boring sky, single biome. \j
20:39	rubenwardy	oh wait, you said cheat client not cheat protector
20:39	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> In games that have competitive elements, "cheating" can involve gaining an unfair advantage over another player, but in NodeCore the only real "cheating" we see is players bypassing gameplay challenges, which is really only "cheating" themselves out of the journey.
20:41	erlehmann	i only play for the FULL IMMERSION: no sky, no biomes
20:41	erlehmann	no plyaers
20:41	erlehmann	players
20:41	Noclip[m]	Warr1024: The emergent part of nodecore is the invention of efficient machines. This is the part of the game for which a cheat client cannot exist. For everything else there can probably be a cheat client.
20:43	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> I mean the ultimate cheat client for nodecore is just int main() { exit(0); }, as it lets you skip ALL the gameplay challenges, and even all the creative-building exercises you could invent at the end.
20:43	Noclip[m]	If you play nodecore to invent new and more efficient machines and do not just want to farm resources then cheating won't be possible by the laws of logic.
20:43	erlehmann	main is usually a function
20:43	erlehmann	(when is it not?)
20:43	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> No idea, I haven't written in C in ages.
20:44	Noclip[m]	The nearest thing to a cheat client that could exist for this would be an inteligent being like humans.
20:45	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Basically if you just want to skip gameplay obstacles then the logical extension of that is playing Hello World. I don't really care if people do that though, as long as they (1) don't ruin the experience for other players who may want to play differently, and (2) don't confuse my game with their Hello Worldified version and file complaints or something about stuff that's not actually in the game.
20:45	Noclip[m]	But how far you can get with such a cheat client depends mostly on how inteligent the cheat client is.
20:45	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Yeah, I mean, you can "cheat" by just watching spoiler videos
20:46	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> but then, that only gets you as far as somebody else has been already.
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20:46	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> People will sometimes ask me "so what's the best way to solve X" and my answer is usually "how the hell should I know? I just wrote the game. Go ask one of the players who's gotten further than I have."
20:47	Noclip[m]	But that will only get you to the same level of that spoiler video. If you want to go beyond that you either need a better video or better inteligence.
20:48	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Well, it's not all intelligence either, it requires some patience too.
20:48	Noclip[m]	Intelligence and time basically.
20:49	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> well, time is part of patience, but there's also an emotional aspect to it.
20:49	Noclip[m]	Sure it's part of that.
20:50	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> It's actually something you exercise and develop when you play, too...
20:51	Noclip[m]	What interests me now: Can Nodecore have an endgame where you basically solved all problems?
20:52	Noclip[m]	Or in other words: Is the amount of problems withing Nodcore limited?
20:52	Noclip[m]	Mhh that probably depends on the players goals.
20:53	Noclip[m]	If the player is willing set new goals after reaching others then there could probably be an infinite amount of problems.
20:54	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Yeah, it should be possible to make it to the end of the hints (assuming there aren't more regressions) but I have no idea how much of the potential gameplay that really covers
20:54	Noclip[m]	In theory there should be an infinite amount of problems for any turring complete system.
20:54	Noclip[m]	Nahh, I don't care about the hints.
20:54	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> I know that there's only a finite number of arrangement of elements that are possible within an MT world, but I don't know whether the same elements with different interpretation would be considered the same "gameplay" or not.
20:55	Noclip[m]	I see the hints more as a beginner tutorial: The real game starts if you completed all hints.
20:55	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> The hints are the closest thing to an enderdragon that NC has. On the other hand, I think players rarely get through half of them before "graduating" from them.
20:55	Noclip[m]	Although there are still a lot of hints which I didn't complete yet ... mostly because I was too lazy to mess with them so far ...
20:56	erlehmann	HINT: what you experience in the game is not real, unless you want it to be.
20:56	Noclip[m]	What do you mean by "graduating" from them?
20:56	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> I mean players "graduate" when they find their own reasons and goals to continue and stop being driven by hint discovery
20:57	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> though I guess there are also cases where they come back to them later
20:57	Noclip[m]	Mhh, what does "real" even mean? So far I've never been able to come up with a serious definition of the word "real".
20:58	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> It means that if you square it, you always get a non-negative number.
20:58	rubenwardy	it's "a value of a continuous quantity that can represent a distance along a line. "
20:59	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Great minds think alike, and apparently ruben and I do too.
21:00	Noclip[m]	"<Warr1024> It means that if you square it, you always get a non-negative number."
21:00	Noclip[m]	-> lol, didn't expect that answer xD
21:03	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> I think "what does real mean" is a philosophy rabbit-hole though.
21:03	erlehmann	i am a bit late with this, but here you can see the long wuzzy post that made fleck reconsider https://git.minetest.land/MineClone2/MineClone2/issues/1543#issuecomment-19813
21:05	Noclip[m]	I'd say the "real world" is the world outside of one's mind. But the only way I see to define that properly would be by using human senses but I would define senses as parts which transport information from the real world into the mind.
21:05	Noclip[m]	So I need a definition for senses to define the real world and I would need a definition of the real world to define senses ...
21:09	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> https://xkcd.com/876/
21:10	Noclip[m]	"Reality is the sum or aggregate of all that is real or existent within a system, as opposed to that which is only imaginary."
21:10	Noclip[m]	(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reality)
21:10	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> The existence of a real world is really unprovable ... I mean, even the idea that "proof" is a thing you should expect to find for something is something you get from the supposed real world...
21:11	Noclip[m]	"An object of the mind is an object that exists in the imagination, but which, in the real world, can only be represented or modeled."
21:11	Noclip[m]	(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object_of_the_mind)
21:11	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> "Reality is all that is real" ... ? real useful definition there :-)
21:11	Noclip[m]	That's what I thought, too. xDD
21:13	Noclip[m]	So wikipedia defines reality and imagination as each other's opposite ...
21:14	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Heh, re: that Wuzzy comment, now I've forgotten what that was in relation to :-D
21:14	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> like, how did we end up on that subject...
21:15	Noclip[m]	"<Warr1024> https://xkcd.com/876/"
21:15	Noclip[m]	Yea, that's nice.
21:17	Noclip[m]	"<Warr1024> The existence of a real world is really unprovable ... I mean, even the idea that "proof" is a thing you should expect to find for something is something you get from the supposed real world..."
21:17	Noclip[m]	-> I don't think there is anything which can be known with certainty but of course I'm not certain about this ...
21:22	Noclip[m]	What do you know? ... I don't think I know anything but I'm not sure. ... Then go to school and to university to learn something! ... [50 years later] ... What did you learn in the past 50 years? ... I'm now a bit more certain that I don't know anything but there is still some doubt.
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21:59	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> The more you learn the less you "know"
22:10		Kimapr joined #minetest
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22:51	independent56	https://imgur.com/a/WCFkFsD
22:52	independent56	What do you think fo ym new hiking infrastructure?
22:52	independent56	This is HP11: http://56i.duckdns.org/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=proposals:hiking&#proposed_paths
23:03		Desour joined #minetest
23:10	erlehmann	http://news.dieweltistgarnichtso.net/bin/minetest-servers
23:14		mazes_81 joined #minetest
23:15	erlehmann	; minetest-servers creative \|head -n3
23:15	erlehmann	fozland.com:30000False
23:15	erlehmann	your-land.de:30000False
23:15	erlehmann	pandorabox.io:30000False
23:15	erlehmann	# exited 120 0
23:15	erlehmann	also works for other attributes
23:20	mazes_81	does TestificateMods (team or single dev?) chat on this channel ?
23:24	mazes_81	if they/he hear(s), my question is about regional_weather, I can launch snow or rain via /set_weather ... on, but when the setting is auto I never noticed rain or snow to be triggered
23:25	erlehmann	can i depend on one mod or the other?
23:26	mazes_81	erlehmann: would be nice, but I think not from mod.conf (not sure I'm quite noob)
23:27	mazes_81	but you can still make two optional depends, and decide not launching anything if both minetest.get_modpath fails
23:28	erlehmann	how to not launch?
23:28	MTDiscord	<Jonathon> lua error() exists
23:28	mazes_81	do all logic in mod.lua
23:29	mazes_81	then only dofile(mod.lua) if at least one required mod is present
23:30	erlehmann	mmhhh
23:30	erlehmann	Jonathon please elaborate?
23:31	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Basically there's no way to do combinational logic or anything in depends
23:31	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> if you want to make a mod require either A or B, there is no way to express that without allowing neither
23:31	erlehmann	default \| mcl_player
23:31	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> so if someone chooses neither, MT itself will not prevent them from playing
23:31	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> so your only option then is either proceed with the functionality disabled, or throw an error and force the user to fix it that way
23:32	MTDiscord	<Jonathon> erlehmann https://www.lua.org/pil/8.5.html
23:32	MTDiscord	<Jonathon> worldedit pisses me off and uses it https://github.com/Uberi/Minetest-WorldEdit/blob/master/worldedit_gui/init.lua#L219-L225 forcing me not to put it in worldmods
23:34	MTDiscord	<Jonathon> erelhmann: assert() also exists
23:34	MTDiscord	<Jonathon> https://www.lua.org/pil/8.3.html
23:35	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> It sounds like basically there's no way to ensure a user has an either-or prereq enabled BEFORE loading teh world
23:36	MTDiscord	<Jonathon> mod.conf falls apart when you want either or, checking for forks, etc
23:36	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Trade-offs, because I think ensuring correct mod loading order is the bigger part of its mission
23:36	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> after all, all dependency presence checks COULD be done manually in lua, but loading order couldn't.
23:37	MTDiscord	<Jonathon> yeah, just chuck everything in optional (povided you dont run into the issue with those) and figure it out in lua
23:38	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Sadly if a better solution exists, it's not one I know
23:38	MTDiscord	<Jonathon> minetest has some issue where it makes optional dependancies required in certain cases, and some other stuff
23:39	Desour	you could make a PR to support combinatorial logic, just throw a SAT-solver on it
23:39	Desour	^ that's another solution
23:40	independent56	Is there a command to request mapblocks to be loaded from the server, like /load here 40? i need to load a town into memory for screenshots
23:40	MTDiscord	<Jonathon> oh, you also have no way to force a mod to load before another or before all of them
23:40	MTDiscord	<Jonathon> thats the one thing you cant really work around
23:41	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Loading mapblocks into the server doesn't necessarily load them onto the client though, and it's the client side where the rendering is done
23:41	Desour	independent56: no.
23:41	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> might be more useful to crank up the draw distance, raise block transfer distance, and/or try a zoom/FOV thing.
23:42	Desour	try increasing your view range instead of using full view range. I think it helped for me some time ago
23:42	MTDiscord	<Warr1024> Narrowing FOV temporarily increases draw distance and requests blocks from the server, possibly beyond the default range...?
23:42	jonadab	rubenwardy: Your autocrafter group: recipe patch appears to mostly work, but I am getting some crashes. I will play around here and see if I can nail those down.
23:42	independent56	Shame. it could be abused if it isn't using limits. Someone could DOS the network by \load here 40000
23:43	jonadab	My current working hypothesis is that if changing the recipe configuration results in an invalid recipe, something is nil and the code is assuming it's not nil.
23:43	jonadab	I'll try to nail it down in the next couple of days.
23:46	MTDiscord	<Jonathon> erlehmann: see issues https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/8601 and https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/8934, https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/11438 aims to fix the first (along with another issue)
23:48		calcul0n joined #minetest
23:52	independent56	it's 00:52 local time... should i sleep?
23:52	Desour	you're wrong. it's 01:52 local time
23:53	independent56	BST, i mean
23:55		jess joined #minetest
23:55		Conradish006 joined #minetest
23:56	independent56	subdomain hell (Points to my mapserver): http://totally.secure.domain.google.com.look.how.secure.this.is.subdomain.hell.wow.look.56i.duckdns.org:8080

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