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IRC log for #minetest, 2020-12-01

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Time Nick Message
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03:08 Noideawhatmedoin When it comes to attempting things like LOD, random question, how practical would it be to generate a mesh w/ textures based off a node (comparable to a minecraft chunk) and essetially unload the real node until it's close enough that collision is likely?
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05:38 SoylentCow minetest forum was slow earlier during the day, now down?
05:38 SoylentCow that thing must be huuuuuuuge
05:44 Emerald2 When isn't it slow or down? XD
05:48 MTDiscord <J​onathon> ^ this
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05:54 SoylentCow ok ok i see i stumbled into a choir chamber... 9MOOOOOOO!!!!!!!
06:00 SoylentCow aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaanyway
06:00 SoylentCow i resubmitted https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Minetest let's all cross our fingers (cross them!)
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06:46 luk3yx Are there enough sources on that draft?
06:48 SoylentCow we gonna see, right? there are 2 real good ones, imho
06:48 SoylentCow from what i understood, the problem was the presense of bad sources, not the absence of good ones
06:48 SoylentCow though i added the good ones just in case, too
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07:26 luk3yx > A player controls a 3D character known as Sam, which is a recursive acronym for "Sam ain't Minecraft"
07:26 luk3yx Where did that originate from? I'm mostly curious but it may help to mention it
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07:54 SoylentCow it can be referenced very easily, but it would not be hi fi reference, and we can't have any, for procedural reasons
07:55 SoylentCow in fact you can find a ref for that and every single fact in history, i removed them all in order to get over the procedural hurdle of meeting the notability review
07:56 SoylentCow every single mentioned fact is referenced in edit history, i mean
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08:43 SoylentCow but to answer your question, luk3yx, i had it from https://wiki.minetest.net/Player
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08:46 SoylentCow anyway, most importantly, this article can't get out of draft NOT because "citation needed", but because it had many poor refs and no real good ones, and these are very different issues
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09:37 rubenwardy lol, there's no where near enough sources - there's none for gameplay
09:38 rubenwardy again, you've also removed all the good sources
09:42 luk3yx How does the German Wikipedia page get away with it?
09:42 luk3yx Could that page be translated/copied?
09:47 rubenwardy they have less strict editors
09:49 rubenwardy making the article worse by removing good citations doesn't make it better. Removing first-party citations is good - they're unreliable
09:49 rubenwardy also remove uncited content - base content on reliable citations, not on your agenda
10:01 rubenwardy you quote raw stats with no citations?!
10:03 rubenwardy this article was better months ago
10:36 Follpvosten[m] Wuzzy: I'd like to send a patch for mineclone which exposes a kind of "dieplayer event to string" API from mcl_death_messages. I'd basically just move most of the on_dieplayer event handler and expose it like `mcl_death_messages.format(player, reason)` which returns a string (while of course also using that function internally to send death messages to chat). I need this for some bridges to other chat systems I'm
10:36 Follpvosten[m] working on, where I'd like to also send over death messages. Asking here first because I'd like to know if that's likely for inclusion, and also what you'd like the public API to look like (`.format()` sounds pretty generic, could also be `.death_to_message()` or similar)
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10:46 rubenwardy btw #mineclone2
10:49 Follpvosten[m] Oh thanks. Only read the start of the contributing document, not the very end lol.
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13:13 fattywompus Hello, whats the best way to get (or build) the most recent "stable" version like 5.3 or whatever onto an ubuntu server without using snap?  I looked at cloning git and building it but github seems to suggest that would end up being the "development test" version
13:18 celeron55 well that's exactly what you want to do
13:18 celeron55 then you just download a non-test game into the games directory
13:24 sfan5 do you only need the server version?
13:24 sfan5 if so I can suggest this guide https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?p=311160#p311160
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13:25 fattywompus Pardon my confusion but only having experienced the windows client (and server launched from that) version 5.2 for example is a seperate entity from 5.3... you're saying if I build the latest dev test version i can then download 5.3 with the dev version? And not need to use snap or build 5.3?
13:26 Follpvosten[m] Note that there's also a ppa: https://launchpad.net/~minetestdevs/+archive/ubuntu/stable
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13:26 Follpvosten[m] If I do see this right, that would be a non-snap way to get the latest version on Ubuntu.
13:27 Follpvosten[m] On Debian I just use backports.
13:28 fattywompus ah ok a ppa simplifies things quite a bit.  I'm also going to go read that post sfan5 linked before I proceed. Thanks
13:28 sfan5 "devtest" is the game shipped with the engine by default, what you probably want is "mintest_game" or maybe mineclone2
13:28 sfan5 that's separate from installing the engine itself
13:31 MTDiscord <F​leckenstein> Yes, in creative mode xD
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13:40 fattywompus so with that script that sfan5 linked when it asks for version I can just enter "5.3.0" and I'm all set? Or do I need to phrase it like "stable-5.3.0"?
13:41 sfan5 just 5.3.0
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15:14 fattywompus so does the portable version created from the script that sfan5 linked create the Debian-minetest user where it can be controlled with systemctl?
15:14 sfan5 no
15:14 sfan5 only the debian package does that
15:14 sfan5 you can however manually create the user and use the same .service file
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15:18 fattywompus and all the log and config and whatnot will stay in my home directory also?   Or will it still write stuff to /etc and var/?
15:20 sfan5 the portable setup will write stuff to the same folder you extract it from
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16:12 SoylentCow i know, rubenwardy, it looks like i removed a lot of sources, but in fact the review takes care of all major aspects of gameplay, while the interview provides all kinds of info about both gameplay & development
16:14 SoylentCow i was specifically advised to get rid of game wiki refs and things of that nature; i understand the re-review process for notability is rather rigid, and it's an auto-fail if low quality refs pop out
16:16 SoylentCow please do not be lulled into thinking i am enjoying this, i had to take a multi-month break after the last rejection just to calm thefuck down
16:17 SoylentCow lol j/k deep inside i am totally enjoying solving this kafkaesque labyrinth :D
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16:32 specing Lol
16:32 specing In a few years Veloren will probably take over all of minetest's playerbase
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17:59 MTDiscord <a​ppguru> Veloren is indeed well made
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18:01 Follpvosten[m] But veloren is very different, isn't it? As in, it's based around being a cubeworld-like voxel RPG
18:01 Follpvosten[m] I think they have a very different target audience than Minetest
18:02 MTDiscord <a​ppguru> Currently yes
18:05 Calinou the name "Veloren" reminds me a lot of Valorant. :P
18:06 MTDiscord <a​ppguru> Sounds like a rant
18:08 Calinou a valuable rant
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18:41 celeron55 btw, i agree with rubenwardy that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Minetest is just bad now, it's full of text based on nothing at all, and some of such text is just plain wrong
18:41 celeron55 it would be completely appropriate for the wikipedia staff to not approve it
18:42 celeron55 and i trust them to do so as long as it's bad
18:42 celeron55 the only thing i can trust wikipedia in is that they won't approve Minetest's article until it's actually good
18:43 celeron55 so if you think it should exist, then get your act together and write it properly. i can't do that for you
18:44 celeron55 just delete everything, then list good sources, then write based on the good sources
18:45 MTDiscord <a​ppguru> ...
18:45 celeron55 and write like you've never heard of MT before
18:45 MTDiscord <a​ppguru> finding "good sources" for everything is tedious
18:45 MTDiscord <a​ppguru> the source code is source enough
18:46 rubenwardy Then don't make an article on wikipedia
18:46 celeron55 if there's no source, then you don't write about it
18:47 rubenwardy If you can't find enough sources to write an article on wikipedia, then Minetest isn't notable enough
18:48 rubenwardy Minetest is notable enough, you just need to write much less
18:48 MTDiscord <a​ppguru> Or Wikipedia is just not made for presenting video games
18:48 celeron55 i'm 50% certain you can assemble a list of sources for an MT article and write the article. it won't be a long one
18:49 celeron55 wikipedia isn't made for persenting anything
18:49 celeron55 presenting*
18:49 luk3yx Wouldn't it be rejected if it was too short?
18:49 celeron55 well that's the other 50%
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19:01 SoylentCow celeron55: if "citation needed" becomes an issue, i will trim the article
19:01 SoylentCow i am super-open to whatever rewrites, i did OK job on text, i suppose, but of course things can be improved
19:02 SoylentCow i do think it's rather aacurate, because i didn't make anything up, but rather used sources like minetest wiki and the codebase itself to justify every single fact/notion i put on there
19:02 SoylentCow but these sources fail the notability review and had to be removed for the article to be moved into mainspace
19:03 SoylentCow i have a very narrow objective here: get it approved into mainspace, and after that the standards of review will not be as stringent, and all of us can pitch in and improve what's already there
19:04 SoylentCow one thing i am tired of discussing is how "minetest" is not a "game", this semantic trifle is not relevant at all to my current task, but once the article is live, we can dive into that issue as well :D
19:07 SoylentCow rubenwardy: minetest is notable enough, there are very many notable sources to draw from, but unfortunately almost all of them are in different language
19:07 SoylentCow than english
19:07 SoylentCow but if need be (i ran this by officials in #wikipedia_help_en) we can use them in order to juice up the notability even more
19:08 SoylentCow sorry, you know what, i am not really here to argue with you people, just letting you know where i am in the process
19:09 SoylentCow if you wish, i won't bug you anymore with this topic, until we get it off the ground
19:12 MTDiscord <w​war> Isn't ""minetest"" an engine? 🤔
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19:17 Vagabond[m] I think it's a worthwhile effort, though perhaps a separate channel can be used for discussion? I have some feedback
19:19 Vagabond[m] For example: citations for the download numbers would probably be good
19:22 celeron55 SoylentCow: well, how surprised are you if i tell you "the source code was published on GitHub on November 26, 2010" is wrong?
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19:23 celeron55 you did original research to write that text, and as a result it's wrong
19:23 Krock OMG
19:23 celeron55 please just don't do that
19:24 Krock minetest.sln created on Nov 27 2010
19:25 celeron55 if you changed that to 27 it would still be wrong
19:25 rubenwardy it was hosted on your website then sourceforge to begin with, right?
19:26 rubenwardy or builds on your website and sourceforge
19:26 rubenwardy sourceforge was somewhere, the horror
19:26 celeron55 no, still wrong
19:26 rubenwardy :O
19:28 Krock was it published earlier, but you removed the repo?
19:29 Krock because the sentence exclusively mentions GitHUb
19:29 celeron55 it may be impossible to write that sentence correctly based on data available today
19:30 Krock hit&miss +/- a few days
19:30 celeron55 but as a hint, i will say:
19:30 celeron55 date of publication doesn't equal date of initial commit
19:30 celeron55 current hosting of repository doesn't equal original hosting of repository
19:30 celeron55 current source control tool doesn't equal original source control tool
19:31 Krock my source control in 2010 was basically copying files from source -> backup (1) (2) Copy of (2)
19:31 celeron55 you probably can't get this right unless you literally were there back then, and personally i don't remember
19:31 Krock brb calling Doctor Who
19:31 rubenwardy https://tenor.com/view/delete-cybermen-dw-doctorwho-exterminate-gif-4902419
19:32 Krock *metal noises*
19:32 celeron55 i do remember, and this will make all that you all said sound ridiculous, that i published minetest's source code originally on bitbucket as a mercurial repository
19:32 celeron55 it was converted at some point to be a git repository and moved to github
19:32 celeron55 the date being, who knows
19:33 celeron55 i don't remember whether the source was originally published on bitbucket or if i made a source package before that
19:34 MTDiscord <W​arr1024> If the bitbucket repo still exists they may have a history of push activity...?
19:34 MTDiscord <W​arr1024> It'd at least help you narrow stuff down, I gues.
19:34 celeron55 bitbucket removed all their mercurial repositories a while ago
19:34 celeron55 there's literally no trace of it
19:34 Krock 2014 according to the wayback machine. https://web.archive.org/web/20140907044527/https://github.com/minetest/minetest/
19:35 Krock and that's off by a few years
19:35 rubenwardy there's a mention of GH in 2012: https://irc.minetest.net/minetest-dev/2012-11-02/
19:35 celeron55 well ok, i think i have a copy of the mercurial repository myself
19:36 rubenwardy the easiest thing to do is just not mention this
19:36 celeron55 and irc logs will probably have all this information that i just said probably doesn't exist
19:36 celeron55 (didn't even remember they go so far back)
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19:37 celeron55 anyway, as i said, stop writing things without sources
19:37 Krock rubenwardy: the final slash kills the link somehow
19:37 celeron55 on wikipedia
19:37 rubenwardy oh weird
19:37 rubenwardy I removed the `text`
19:37 Krock wikipedia won't ever accept the English page anyway
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19:44 SoylentCow celeron55: are you perttu? let's fix this thing :) there are some other statements there which are based on info from this very chan, we can lose them as well
19:45 SoylentCow in particular, i will get rid of nov 26
19:45 SoylentCow and other stuff that is hard to verify and/or wrong
19:45 Krock he's an impostor! he secretly back-stabbed celer- err- perttu in 2012 to take over his role
19:45 SoylentCow sure sounds like it &_&
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19:54 SoylentCow "The source code was published on GitHub in late 2010, and the license terms changed to GPLv2 soon after that."
19:54 SoylentCow shazam :D
19:57 celeron55 ...
19:58 celeron55 can i request you to find someone else to do this wikipedia thing? i don't know if it's incompetence or bad habits but you're doing it so wrong it's bad for us
19:58 celeron55 sorry
19:59 SoylentCow no, i can't, the only reason i am doing this is because for many years (!) now no one else would
19:59 SoylentCow but i am totally gonna stop bother this channel over this
19:59 celeron55 well ok, then i'll just say that you still got it wrong
19:59 celeron55 MT wasn't published on github in 2010
20:00 rubenwardy there have been other recent people working on this, it's just that dancing with wikipedia editors is painful
20:00 SoylentCow i'll ax this whole sentence right now, and i'll stop bugging you people
20:02 SoylentCow one last thing: all of yall please feel welcome to get in touch with me in private (or on wiki) with criticsms, suggestions, etc
20:03 SoylentCow i would like the final result to be factually accurate, well-written, and well-referenced, and i am not perfect at this, but i do try my best :D
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21:03 MTDiscord <I​hrFussel> Why can't you simply TELL the year it was published instead of complaining about wrong years only?
21:04 celeron55 because i don't have a source for it, and as such it's useless for wikipedia
21:06 * SoylentCow turns a new 4leaf and starts chewing on it thoughtfully
21:06 SoylentCow dang it, meant it to be 9green
21:09 MTDiscord <I​hrFussel> The original creator's mouth does not count as source? What?
21:11 MTDiscord <W​arr1024> I suspect they'd rather have a published source, i.e. that they directly verify, and link to.
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21:29 MTDiscord <G​reenXenith> The Wikipedia page actually looked fine like a year ago, but it was knocked for notability because the sources weren't very reliable. Now the page is garbage and myself and the other major editor have given up trying on it.
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21:48 celeron55 GreenXenith: if you can be bothered, try to get the good one from the history or somewhere and save it somewhere to wait for better times
21:52 SoylentCow celeron55 is absolutely right: if we can get it approved at all, in any state at all, then your hands will be untied to re-introduce just about anything from before, or even do a near-full rewrite, and saving last good (your pov) state in your sandbox is a great idea
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22:53 specing Does anyone have a patch that makes Minetest remember server/CSM/command  history?
22:53 specing (and that would allow me to scroll up into it)
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23:15 * SoylentCow listening to http://tehightime.net/media/marvin-gaye-t-plays-it-cool.mp3
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23:51 Soni idea: minetest + wasm2kotlin = minetest, java edition
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