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IRC log for #minetest, 2019-04-11

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 p_gimeno well, you need a base game, something that provides the basic functions (be it minetest game or any other)
00:01 p_gimeno but yes, you can copy the base game, then add the mods to the mods folder of the game
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00:04 FlyingGarlic but i still wouldnt be able to have multiples with overlaping sets of mods, without the symlink you mentioned ?
00:04 p_gimeno while the mods are in the mods directory, you'll have problems
00:05 FlyingGarlic kk.
00:05 p_gimeno MT is designed so that only one mod with one particular name exists, and when that doesn't happen, it tries to resolve the conflict and sometimes it does it wrong, or it just doesn't
00:09 FlyingGarlic i checked out subgame mineclone2. it has a diferent type of inventory window that has tabs with different categories of items. Very nice feature. would be so nice if i could have that in dreambuilder.  Anyone know why dreambuilder doesnt have this and what mod provides this functionality ?
00:12 p_gimeno minetest game doesn't define any item categories; mods made for it don't have any categories either, so it's not possible to have that in MT game or mods based on it
00:12 FlyingGarlic ok i see.
00:13 FlyingGarlic is dreambuilder generaly used with mt subgame or is it often used with various other sub games ?
00:13 p_gimeno I don't think it will work with anything other than MT but VanessaE can answer that better
00:16 FlyingGarlic ok i see. are most mods generaly only used with the mt sub game ?
00:16 p_gimeno yes
00:17 FlyingGarlic Ah
00:18 p_gimeno Wuzzy has created a thread dedicated to mods that can be used with MCL2: https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=20935
00:19 Wuzzy no
00:19 Wuzzy i did not create this thread :P
00:19 p_gimeno apologies
00:24 FlyingGarlic ah ok i see, i will take a look, lots more research to do, thanks so much for pointing me in fruitfull directions!
00:31 p_gimeno you're very welcome :)
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02:12 p_gimeno cheapie: where should I send bug reports about digistuff?
02:24 p_gimeno anyway it's simple, I get a crash in in init.lua, the http line should be: local http = minetest.request_http_api and minetest.request_http_api()
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02:47 VanessaE p_gimeno: you are correct re: dreambuilder.  it's only meant to run on top of mtg, and 5.x at that.
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06:27 Emerald2 Is it possible to make the moreblocks circular saw cut planks from other tree mods?
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08:21 Niwla23 How to write in dev channel?
08:22 ANAND Get a real IRC client - web clients are not allowed to speak in #-dev
08:22 ANAND Real, as in installed clients. e.g. HexChat, HexChat, and HexChat
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08:25 Niwla23 hello
08:25 Niwla23 can you see the message?
08:28 ANAND No I can't. :^)
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08:59 Emerald2 wb Niwla
09:00 Niwla Hello
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09:00 Niwla How to use the mod translations?
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09:04 Niwla who can give me write permission on hub and dev?
09:06 Emerald2 You need to ask one of the moderators in those channels.
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09:17 Emerald2 I'd say ask Shara or ruben.
09:17 Emerald2 At this time of day.
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09:21 ANAND Anyone can write in #-dev if they're using a normal desktop IRC client
09:23 Emerald2 Ahhh. In hub at least they have to ask.
09:23 ANAND But chatting in #-hub requires voice, and $hara is the one to go to.
09:23 ANAND Yea
09:24 cheapie [21:24:43] <p_gimeno> anyway it's simple, I get a crash in in init.lua, the http line should be: local http = minetest.request_http_api and minetest.request_http_api()
09:25 cheapie Are you running this on some old MT version or something?
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09:26 Niwla How to change the nickname list in hexchat
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09:30 ANAND /nick <new_nick>
09:32 Niwla23 Now i can write in dev, i had to login in irc
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11:31 p_gimeno cheapie: 5.1.0-dev master with MTG master. Also happens in 5.0.0.
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11:34 p_gimeno cheapie: it might be related to the fact that I'm compiling with cURL disabled
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14:46 p_gimeno cheapie: definitely it's because I have curl disabled, https://notabug.org/pgimeno/minetest/src/master/src/script/lua_api/l_http.cpp#L38 disables it when USE_CURL is false
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14:59 Daisae Where did https://github.com./minetest-mods/blox go ?  Or what happened to it?  Did something change for it because of Minetest 5 ?
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15:02 rubenwardy Daisae: https://gitlab.com/VanessaE/blox
15:03 Daisae Thanks
15:47 sofar Wuzzy: I just need some time this weekend to go over line by line and take out the text changes I do like (which is a bunch of them)
15:47 Wuzzy heh
15:48 sofar and the sort ordering, heh, I never knew lol
15:48 Wuzzy didn'T you write the creative mod?
15:48 sofar it's derivative though
15:49 Wuzzy from MTG?
15:49 sofar well, it's mostly trivial api usage
15:49 Wuzzy i see
15:49 sofar it's maybe half-half if I remember it
15:51 Wuzzy btw QA-block is very helpful for finding bugs like missing sounds :)
15:51 sofar I use the inspector a lot
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15:51 Wuzzy can it edit nodes or is it read-only?
15:52 sofar I've wanted to make it more interactive, never had the time
15:53 Wuzzy i also wrote a half-arsed mod like this a while ago but its very bare bones
15:53 Wuzzy doesnt even support meta yet XD
15:53 sofar inspector dumps meta, node inventory and formspecs
15:54 sofar it also does work on entities but doesn't show much yet
15:54 sofar I should really make a tabbed interface that allows editing
15:54 Wuzzy itb seems very paranoid about entities
15:54 sofar it is :)
15:55 sofar it was one of the early design constraints I put in place
15:55 Wuzzy entities in MT still suck so much imo
15:55 sofar we basically said: only entities for text signs
15:55 Wuzzy and i dont just mean the performance. the entire api is such ... wtf
15:56 Wuzzy i think the reason why all mobs mod suck is because entities suck
15:57 rubenwardy entities do suck
15:57 Wuzzy for instance, entities and players are very similar yet so different. there are many features that would make sense for both but its only available for one of them
15:57 rubenwardy easily my least favourite part of the API
15:57 rubenwardy that or detached inventories
15:58 Wuzzy those are strong contenders
15:58 sofar lol
15:58 sofar brb espresso
15:59 Wuzzy but detached inventories are a neccessary evil, they're useful for magic chests
15:59 Wuzzy but i agree the api is pretty wtf
15:59 Wuzzy i think collision of entitiy seems also kind of broken. not sure about that
15:59 p_gimeno Wuzzy: magic chests?
16:00 Wuzzy ender chests...
16:00 Wuzzy i.e. chests that give you access to a global inventory
16:00 p_gimeno well, http://irc.minetest.net/minetest/2019-04-06#i_5525394
16:00 Wuzzy anyway
16:01 Wuzzy hmmmm
16:01 Wuzzy wait a minute
16:01 Wuzzy haha
16:01 Wuzzy oh wait
16:02 Wuzzy no, in MCL2 I don't use detached inventory for enderchests either. i am dumb
16:02 Wuzzy when i think about it, it makes more sense to just use it as a new player inventory list
16:02 Wuzzy ender chest was the wrong analogy
16:02 p_gimeno detached inventory is useful for e.g. creative inventory
16:03 Wuzzy yeah or a truly global inventory not "attached" to a node or player
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16:03 p_gimeno I'm curious though, what would you change in entities, besides vectors (which I think are a huge issue)?
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16:03 Wuzzy idk, i dont know how they work internally
16:04 Wuzzy but the player<->entity discrepancies is one of the first things to attack
16:05 Wuzzy the reason why mods are so annoying to implement is that entities lack crucial features that players have, like gravity, breath, etc. a mob mod must re-implement that all
16:05 Wuzzy i'm not saying all entities should be automatically subject to gravity, however, just pointing out a restriction
16:06 rubenwardy breath and health are two things that are annoyingly hardcoded in the engine
16:06 Wuzzy please don't steal them :(
16:07 Wuzzy I don't want laggy health and breath handling. that would be a major step backwards
16:08 rubenwardy if moving such things into Lua would make them slow, then we've failed as an engine
16:08 sofar I wonder if it's not easier to just forego the entire built in health/breath and soft-code your own health
16:08 Wuzzy i am worried that you core devs are too aggressive in removing core functionality because "mods can implement them". sorry, thats not always as simple as that
16:08 rubenwardy removing core functionality is the best way to allow more functionality
16:08 kurtzmusch i agree in removing health
16:09 sofar well, let me explain
16:09 kurtzmusch also remove bubbles
16:09 rubenwardy because by moving it to a mod, you're necessating that core hooks being exposed to allow the feature be implemented in the first place
16:09 sofar take mobs
16:09 sofar right now if you kill a mob
16:09 rubenwardy Minetest doesn't do this enough really
16:09 sofar poof, gone
16:09 sofar no corpse animation, dying
16:09 rubenwardy well, it does it wrong
16:09 sofar just some hard coded smoke
16:10 rubenwardy it says "do it in a mod" but then doesn't expose enough hooks for it
16:10 Wuzzy you can remove the hardcoded smoke, however
16:10 sofar but you'd have to spawn a new corpse entity
16:10 Wuzzy why not keeping the builtin health/breath but making it optional?
16:10 Wuzzy health is just to important to remove it from minetest
16:11 Wuzzy also, such a step needs to be done with great care because you risk creating dependency hell
16:11 sofar the concept is important, but I don't see why you couldn't handle it better in lua
16:11 sofar with much more possibilities
16:12 Wuzzy what i mean with "dependency hell" is that if its done wrong, a mod can no longer simply call "set_hp" but must now hard-depend on a game or mod which destroys flexibility
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16:12 rubenwardy yeah, that is true
16:12 Wuzzy i would favor a solution that relies on implementing something like Java interfaces
16:13 Wuzzy something like that is already done with minetest.is_protected
16:13 Wuzzy this is good as you can safely support protection without having to worry at all about the underlying protection system
16:13 rubenwardy or minetest.get_auth_handler()
16:14 rubenwardy minetest.is_protected() is a bad API imo
16:14 sofar we've talked about replacing it
16:14 rubenwardy would be better to have      minetest.get_protector()  which returns a table with methods like   is_protected, get_owners, get_primary_owner, get_info, etc
16:14 Wuzzy maybe, but the idea behind the "reimplement that function" is still ok, no?
16:15 Wuzzy so what wwould be the default health handling? no health at all?
16:15 rubenwardy the problem with health is that it needs client-side prediction a lot more than the other things
16:15 Wuzzy What really should be killed off in the engine would be the settings "damage_enabled" and "creative_mode". its very annoying those are global settings, and not per-player
16:15 rubenwardy I agree with that
16:16 sofar and switch to a newer, maintained version of lua
16:17 Wuzzy Lua 5.3???? YESSSSSssssssssssssss
16:17 sofar and fix shaders, z sorting
16:17 Wuzzy YESSsssssssssssSSSsssssSSSsssss
16:17 rubenwardy LuaJit doesn't support 5.3 :)
16:17 Wuzzy NoooooooOooOoo
16:17 rubenwardy we really need someoen that can do graphics
16:17 sofar hmm, we probably should stick to luajit
16:17 p_gimeno switch to Lua 5.3 and you've killed servers
16:17 sofar maybe deprecate lua and require luajit
16:17 Wuzzy you mean, to replace the horrible main menu? :)
16:17 rubenwardy but then OOM
16:18 rubenwardy and LuaJit isn't maintained
16:18 rubenwardy Wuzzy: well, that doesn't need a graphics person
16:18 rubenwardy I could do it
16:18 rubenwardy but I won't, because I'm not a masochist :)
16:18 sofar jp did that
16:18 rubenwardy sapier's code is kinda horrible
16:19 rubenwardy although, tbh - it wouldn't be that hard to improve it a lot
16:19 Wuzzy i had several ideas for a main menu floating in my head but i never finished
16:19 rubenwardy just add a new intro screen with buttons, and then a background and theming
16:19 Wuzzy imo main menu would be best done from scratch. there is jsut too much wrong
16:19 Wuzzy i dont even know where to start!
16:21 rubenwardy somewhere
16:21 rubenwardy start somewhere
16:21 Wuzzy a lot of precious screen space is wasted. its just empty. many buttons are crammed. the controls menu is based on code that is YEARS old. the theme colors are kind of ugly. tabbed interface. incorrect font (no monospace). tiny font. and so on...
16:22 rubenwardy a lot of those can be fixed fairly easily
16:22 Wuzzy the whole menu structure is kind of messy, too. its unlike most other games (bad inconsistency)
16:22 rubenwardy I agree
16:22 Wuzzy not the tabbed interface thing, however.
16:22 Wuzzy that would mean a major redesign
16:22 rubenwardy you can hide the tabs and add a new intro page
16:22 Wuzzy the main menu cannot be fixed just by a few minor tweaks, sorry
16:23 Wuzzy what Freeminer did was pretty nice
16:23 rubenwardy that was pre-Lua mainmenu, no?
16:23 Wuzzy no
16:23 Wuzzy Freemienr actually did their homework and made a good main menu
16:23 Wuzzy too bad Freeminer is dead and still GPLv3'ed
16:24 Wuzzy tbh i am not really surprised that Freeminer died
16:24 Wuzzy i never were convinced the project will  go anywere. I gave it a try multiple times but I was always underwhelmed
16:24 Wuzzy i was astonished by the amount of game-breaking errors
16:24 rubenwardy Freeminer changed to LGPLv2.1
16:25 rubenwardy in the end
16:25 Wuzzy haha
16:25 sofar probably too late
16:25 rubenwardy proller and etc gave permission to merge things back
16:25 Wuzzy riiight, now i remember
16:25 Wuzzy after the project died, however :D
16:25 rubenwardy yeah
16:26 Wuzzy i believe proller only chose GPLv3 only to mess with you :D
16:26 rubenwardy definitely
16:27 Wuzzy another thing i dislike a lot about current menu is the way how games are selected in singleplayer. its really annoying
16:28 Wuzzy i have like dozens of games, so I always have to click 100 times on the arrow buttons XD
16:28 Wuzzy and each time i return to singleplayer page, the games lists returns to start, so i must click 100 times again >_>
16:28 Wuzzy i have never ever seen such an useless widget in any other software program
16:29 Wuzzy i mean the "game icon bar"
16:29 sofar view persistence
16:29 rubenwardy the game icon bar is stupid
16:29 Wuzzy view persistence doesnt really help that much because "scrolling" is still a painful process if the list is long
16:30 Wuzzy maybe i should draw up a mockup of a better main menu someday and post it in the forums
16:30 rubenwardy that would be good
16:30 Wuzzy i wonder, is there anything that is *good* about current design?
16:31 Wuzzy i think the credits list is okayish. it could stay like that
16:31 sofar I should ask our UI designer
16:31 sofar maybe she would be willing to take a stab at it
16:32 Wuzzy advanced settings is annying to use imo
16:32 Wuzzy i mean, its good we can access advanced settings, but its still a lot of work
16:33 Wuzzy i think the main problem here is the window is tiny
16:33 Wuzzy so you can only see like 11 entries at once even with ultra-super-duper-HD resoltuon :(
16:36 rubenwardy yay, formspecs?
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16:37 sofar maybe a more mozilla about:config like list is better
16:38 sofar just a long list. Click on one and you can edit it
16:38 sofar filter at the top, without any of the nesting
16:38 rubenwardy would be good to make the thing responsive full screen
16:39 rubenwardy should maybe add a new container type for that, idk
16:40 kurtzmusch what about steal it from a website, dont overthink it, jut keep it simple and game agnostic, .w3schools.com/ hsa a bunch of templates, most of those are even mobile responsive
16:40 rubenwardy Minetest doesn't use HTML
16:41 kurtzmusch im talking about design decisions
16:41 rubenwardy container_relative[0,-1]    --> 1 unit above bottom
16:41 rubenwardy hmm
16:41 kurtzmusch you were saying that its more about design than the actual programming
16:41 rubenwardy nah
16:41 rubenwardy I didn't say that
16:42 kurtzmusch not you,  you guys
16:42 kurtzmusch in general
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16:50 p_gimeno <rubenwardy> proller and etc gave permission to merge things back  <---  if the main menu is what MT wants, maybe that's one way to go
17:01 p_gimeno the main problem of MT is that it's like a car without a steering system, it needs a single person with a clear vision taking the decisions. Most efforts go into small features that cover the interests of reduced groups of people, while there's a lot of elephants in the room that everyone pretends don't exist. About zero effort goes into improving maintainability, and so the snowball keeps getting bigger.
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17:07 kurtzmusch An open source voxel game engine. Play one of our many games, mod a game to your liking, make your own game, or play on a multiplayer server. i wouldnt add anything to the engine that doesnt fits this, health and bubbles beeing one of them, its too specific for a type of game
17:08 p_gimeno good example
17:08 kurtzmusch p_gimeno i havent been around here for long, but i bet this is something that has been said/discussed over and over again
17:09 p_gimeno yeah I guess so too. I guess the main problem is who bells that cat
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17:43 proller fm have tons of useful improvements much more important than main menu...
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18:02 Daisae So, now torches extinguish under water.  Is the only other light source in the stock game mese lamps?  or what else can practically be used? with a mod?
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18:06 kurtzmusch Daisae, i think you can put fireflys in a bottle now
18:08 Daisae Thanks.
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18:08 Daisae Flying around a world with the Carpathian mapgen, i keep reaching the end of the world.  Is that a feature of the Carpathian mapgen?
18:22 Wuzzy lol
18:23 Wuzzy i think you suffer from a severe case of minetest addiction lol
18:24 rubenwardy lol
18:25 Wuzzy i usually get bored faster than i reach the edge of the world
18:25 Daisae I am flying around looking at the mapgen rather than playing.
18:26 p_gimeno the end of the world is about 30 km away from the spawn point
18:26 Daisae Hmmm.  I saw it at a little over 2000.
18:26 p_gimeno are you sure it's the end of the world as opposed to areas that haven't been generated yet?
18:27 Daisae I waited and it did not generate.
18:27 Wuzzy o_O
18:27 Wuzzy on a server?
18:27 Daisae MT 5.0.1
18:27 Daisae Singleplayer
18:27 Wuzzy did you touch mapgen_limit?
18:27 Daisae possible.  Let me check.
18:28 Daisae I have not used minetest for many months or over a year.
18:28 Wuzzy click on "All Settings" and enter mapgen_limit
18:30 Daisae Yes.  That was it. I had forgotten that setting existed and I had changed it.
18:30 p_gimeno Wuzzy++
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19:45 MinetestBot [git] pauloue -> minetest/minetest: Add node field to PlayerHPChangeReason table (#8368) 22ad820 https://git.io/fjqyk (2019-04-11T19:45:39Z)
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20:54 kurtzmusch what is the mainstream program to record games on linux ?
20:54 kurtzmusch so i can show me mod on the forums
20:56 rubenwardy OBS or SimpleScreenRecorder
20:56 rubenwardy latter is good because it's simple
20:56 rubenwardy former is good for streaming
20:58 galaxie I second SimpleScreenRecorder. It Just Works(tm).
20:58 kurtzmusch noice
20:58 kurtzmusch thanks
20:58 rubenwardy i'd only use the former for streaming tbh
20:59 kurtzmusch no interest in streaming
20:59 kurtzmusch are those on the ubuntu repo?
21:03 kurtzmusch ah found it, no hifens
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21:05 kurtzmusch should i go for 60 fps or thats overkill:
21:05 kurtzmusch :
21:05 kurtzmusch ? **
21:07 galaxie Depends on how fast your machine is.
21:08 kurtzmusch no gpu, i5 2.4ghz
21:09 Calinou OBS is a good option on Windows too
21:09 Calinou (for recording)
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21:13 galaxie kurtzmusch: If you keep dropping frames, consider a smaller FPS.
21:14 Calinou 60 FPS is love, 60 FPS is life :P
21:14 Calinou but yes, if you can't keep it up, you have to either decrease the resolution, the framerate, or the encoding quality (you could record at near-lossless quality and perform a second encoding pass afterwards)
21:16 kurtzmusch wow, my cpu cant handle minetest and the ssr
21:16 kurtzmusch super stuttery
21:17 Calinou kurtzmusch: try OBS then
21:17 kurtzmusch guess ill have to do some reading on encoding
21:17 Calinou (it supports GPU encoding too, specifically NVENC or Quick Sync Video)
21:17 kurtzmusch i dont have gpu, just stock intel integrated graphics
21:17 Calinou you may be interested in https://www.mistergoodcat.com/post/screencasts-with-open-broadcaster-software, it's targeted at screencasts but can still be of relevance for recording games
21:18 Calinou yeah, that's going to make it difficult
21:18 Calinou (Quick Sync Video is offered on Intel IGPs still, but video quality will be worse)
21:18 kurtzmusch i did record it downscaled to 720p
21:18 kurtzmusch i think downscaling it takes cpu effort, maybe i should downscale afterwards?
21:19 kurtzmusch i play with this one more
21:20 kurtzmusch or ask nathans21 to do a showcase :p
21:20 Calinou downscaling takes more effort too, yes
21:21 Calinou if it's too much for your machine, encoding in a second pass will be a better choice
21:21 Calinou your first pass just has to record in "veryfast" preset with an high bitrate, so you'll re-encode later
21:22 kurtzmusch oks
21:23 kurtzmusch its also vsynced
21:23 kurtzmusch not sure how that plays with the recorder
21:24 Calinou I don't remember if that's a good thing or not
21:24 Calinou if you want to disable vsync, run Minetest in a terminal with `vblank_mode=0 minetest`|
21:25 Calinou (in other words, set the `vblank_mode` environment variable to 0 before running it)
21:27 kurtzmusch yeahm i know about that trick
21:28 kurtzmusch its vsynced by default, yet i get tearing without a compositor
21:29 kurtzmusch on this subject: motion blur is something that makes a game playable at 30 fps, so its a nice thing to have in the engine
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21:31 Calinou not really, it can't smooth out *everything* and the issue of high input lag at low framerates is still there
21:32 Calinou and well-made motion blur has a cost on its own :)
21:32 Calinou (and it's not going to be 100% representative of what you'd see in real life too)
21:32 Calinou https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXIrSTMgJ9s
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21:44 kurtzmusch consoles did it for a long time( maybe even do? )
21:44 kurtzmusch still do *
21:47 kurtzmusch oh yeah, the vid just explains this lol
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22:49 makayabou I'm working on a subgame, containing several mods i'm developping at the same time, do you think git submodules is the best way to achieve it properly?
22:50 makayabou and to link to rolling mods made by others (that I don't intend to modify) what would be your advice?
22:50 sofar git submodules can be a major pain
22:50 sofar but if you're not forking mods and using them unmodified, it may be a reasonable solution
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22:50 sofar however, please don't just tell people to clone git
22:50 sofar make a proper release zip file that includes *all* mods
22:50 makayabou yes sure
22:51 sofar and put *that* zip file on contentdb
22:52 makayabou I saw https://git-scm.com/book/en/v2/Git-Tools-Submodules that explains a lot about using it
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