| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 00:02 |
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piesquared joined #minetest |
| 00:12 |
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Cork joined #minetest |
| 00:14 |
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piesquared joined #minetest |
| 00:15 |
Xiong |
VanessaE you're confusing me. Before your recent fix we discussed this at length. My concern involved source but we fell into this other thing. |
| 00:16 |
VanessaE |
what's confusing |
| 00:17 |
VanessaE |
[12-17 05:33] <Xiong> Um... this is exactly as it was in the previous version. I only replaced the indicated file. Please say if the hydro fix spans other files. |
| 00:17 |
VanessaE |
[12-17 14:53] <VanessaE> Xiong: only the one file is replaced, and the behavior is exactly as intende |
| 00:17 |
VanessaE |
+d |
| 00:18 |
Xiong |
So... I said LV mills had always been interested in a neighborhood of 8 nodes (at y and y-1). You said by the time you were done, the MV mill would respect only 4 nodes, all at y only. |
| 00:18 |
VanessaE |
you're wrong |
| 00:19 |
Xiong |
Well no I can't be wrong all the time. |
| 00:20 |
VanessaE |
LV water mill always used the four adjacent nodes, since my flowing change went in like 2 years ago. MV has since it was added some days ago. LV only cared about flowing water. MV allowed standing water due to a bug. |
| 00:20 |
Xiong |
You told me I was wring then... now you're telling me I'm wrong about that. Either I was right then or I'm right now. |
| 00:20 |
Xiong |
8. |
| 00:20 |
VanessaE |
four. |
| 00:20 |
VanessaE |
X+/-, Z+/-. not the corners. |
| 00:20 |
Xiong |
I just reported results. |
| 00:21 |
Xiong |
Actual results, that happened. I don't like to be called a liar. |
| 00:21 |
VanessaE |
dude, look at the code. https://github.com/minetest-mods/technic/blob/master/technic/machines/LV/water_mill.lua#L36 |
| 00:22 |
VanessaE |
that table is unchanged since *checks "Blame"*...since 5 years ago. |
| 00:22 |
Xiong |
I am not an expert or even competent on mt code... never made that claim. |
| 00:23 |
Xiong |
I'm not even certain what you're disputing. You say, flatly, I'm wrong. I can't be wrong about everything. I see what I see, I can document it. |
| 00:24 |
VanessaE |
" I said LV mills had always been interested in a neighborhood of 8 nodes (at y and y-1)." this part is wrong. |
| 00:25 |
Xiong |
Well, sorry. Maybe changed 5 years ago. But I last played over 5 years ago. In any case, irrelevant. Today we're concerned about MV hydro. Yes? |
| 00:26 |
VanessaE |
yes. and it now works like the LV one. four x/Z adjacent flowing water nodes. nothing above or below. |
| 00:26 |
Xiong |
It is true that I said such a thing. |
| 00:26 |
VanessaE |
I think what you're seeing is the difference between horizontal and vertical flow. |
| 00:29 |
VanessaE |
(MT engine uses different param2 ranges for same, but it still behaves in a useful manner) |
| 00:29 |
Xiong |
Look, can we define this narrowly? By design of the MV mill, if it is surrounded by n nodes (where n is either 3 or 4, another point) of flowing water AND otherwise placed flat on level stone... should output be 100%? |
| 00:30 |
VanessaE |
no |
| 00:30 |
VanessaE |
only if the water's flowing vertically. if it's horizontal flow, at best you'll get something like 64% capacity |
| 00:31 |
Xiong |
Good. That's what I've been saying all along. Some nodes at y-1 must be unobstructed. |
| 00:31 |
VanessaE |
otoh: place a water source directly above. when the vertical flow reaches the X/Z sides, it'll hit 100%, even if only 3 sides work. |
| 00:32 |
VanessaE |
so the turbine doesn't care what's at y-1, but the *engine* does because that alters the water's path, turning it into horizontal flow |
| 00:32 |
Xiong |
Really want to avoid the 3 == 4 part, okay. |
| 00:33 |
VanessaE |
it's not 3 == 4. it's "3 is enough to hit the output limit, thus 4 is simply redundant". |
| 00:33 |
Xiong |
Right. The engine. But in world I don't see an engine. I see a block and I'm trying to make it work. Everything I say is from actual experience. All questions are so based. |
| 00:34 |
Xiong |
Really want to avoid the 3 == 4 part, okay. I've seen it, seen the code, understand it. Also gotten bad advice. Nonissue. |
| 00:35 |
VanessaE |
in-world you see the engine, even if it looks like nodes to you. anyway afaik a mod can't really do much to change how flowing water changes paths around a solid object. |
| 00:36 |
Xiong |
Yah. But... as I keep saying... I can't be wrong all the time. The thing does do what I say it does... even if it's innocent and a god or demon or Trump is to blame. |
| 00:37 |
Xiong |
I'm happy to have been right before. I wish we hadn't spent so much time on it. |
| 00:38 |
VanessaE |
*grumble* |
| 00:38 |
VanessaE |
the problem is you keep mixing-up engine behavior with mod behavior |
| 00:39 |
Xiong |
For the record: To get max output from a watermill, LV or MV, ensure three pairs of nodes adjacent to mill faces are clear... each at y and y-1 level. |
| 00:39 |
VanessaE |
yes. |
| 00:39 |
Xiong |
Do not care. They are in practice inextricable. |
| 00:40 |
VanessaE |
or: any combination of clear and obstructed vertical paths that results in a large enough "water_flow" count. |
| 00:40 |
MinetestBot |
[git] zeuner -> minetest/minetest: Lua_api.txt: Document inventory sending behaviour (#7720) 7a4d4bc https://git.io/fpxik (2018-12-18T00:38:39Z) |
| 00:40 |
Xiong |
My life is exactly the same... whether physics is broken or physics is perfect but Devil Trump is evilly unscrambling my eggs. |
| 00:41 |
Xiong |
I only care about actual results. I thought we'd been talking at cross-purposes |
| 00:43 |
Xiong |
To get max output from a watermill, LV or MV, ensure three pairs of nodes adjacent to mill faces are clear... each at y and y-1 level. There may be alternate neighborhoods equally effective but if all nodes at y-1 are blocked by solid objects this may be difficult. |
| 00:44 |
VanessaE |
I suppose to the end user, engine and mod may as well be one, but from a modder's standpoint, they're most definitely not, and often are at odds with one another. that MV fix I put in, for example? aside from it being to restrict the MV turbine to flowing rather than standing water, also gets around an engine oddity that sets a water source to param2=240 when it fills in an empty space -- as opposed to param2 = 0 |
| 00:44 |
VanessaE |
for water that was created at mapgen time. |
| 00:45 |
Xiong |
This is a practical statement of how the devices behave in play, not an analysis of code, for which I'm unqualified. |
| 00:46 |
VanessaE |
said oddity is why you were seeing 100% power without any water flow, because you most likely caused some infinite-water-fill-in during your build. |
| 00:49 |
Xiong |
VanessaE I don't think you're a bad person; I think you're remarkably hardworking and often helpful. And I suffer from an unusual set of shortcomings... but also enjoy rare strengths. I am not a fool. Please be kind enough not to call me wrong when I make a statement. I may be so... but I labor to avoid this. It's more likely I have expressed a true statement in unfamiliar language. |
| 00:49 |
VanessaE |
sorry for the confusion. |
| 00:51 |
Xiong |
The watermills... both if them... did and do perform as I said they did... and always have. For the player, this matters. I play mt. That's important to me. |
| 00:52 |
Xiong |
I'm glad you fixed the thing that allowed MV mills to work in source... very odd. I have that version installed. |
| 00:52 |
VanessaE |
ok, so we're on the same page now. |
| 00:54 |
Xiong |
I suspect the LV mills are also working in source. But... I have already demolished my LV plant and crafted MV. And a sane man will not fool with those again... MV so much better. |
| 00:54 |
VanessaE |
eh, I have my reservations about that |
| 00:55 |
VanessaE |
for a while there, LV turbines had a nice high output, max of some 1300 EU. |
| 00:55 |
Xiong |
Also kudos for fix of ridiculous OP LV mills. I was getting 1575 W out of just one. |
| 00:55 |
VanessaE |
now they're just 180, in favor of MV being the high-output ones. |
| 00:56 |
Xiong |
Was always advertised as 180. 1575 was a bug. |
| 00:56 |
VanessaE |
heh, don't credit me for that, I'm the one that made them do 1575 EU (eh, 1300, 1500, whatever) :) |
| 00:56 |
VanessaE |
nonono |
| 00:56 |
VanessaE |
1575 wasn't a bug. it was intentional. |
| 00:56 |
VanessaE |
but wherever it's written that they should be 180, THAT was the bug, for as long as they were doing 1575 |
| 00:56 |
Xiong |
Well, the difference between feature and bug is marketing. |
| 00:59 |
VanessaE |
see, I have a LV hydro plant on one of my servers. between its total size, the number of turbines, and amount of head, and comparing against real world hydro installations, and then comparing those to in-game and real-world nuke plants, somewhere over 1000 EU per turbine made sense. 1575 is what I and...someone else? I can't remember who... settled on |
| 01:00 |
Xiong |
I read a forum post by a guy, really steamed. Using mt to teach his son the value of hard work. He was irate that cheap powerful hydro made his son lazy and unwilling to dig uranium. |
| 01:01 |
VanessaE |
a secondary goal was to make the one on my server output about half a million EU, about half what a nuke plant occupying the same volume would produce. |
| 01:01 |
Xiong |
I heed and sometimes make arguments based on reality but this is treading on thin ice. |
| 01:02 |
VanessaE |
(in the end, we ended up with some 450 kEU. idk how much it does now, it has not been upgraded to MV) |
| 01:03 |
Xiong |
I am content with the MV mill now. I argue from gameplay balance. The price is fair for the output. |
| 01:05 |
VanessaE |
I'm not :( that hydro station probably has a total output of like, 50 kEU now :( |
| 01:05 |
VanessaE |
mind you |
| 01:06 |
VanessaE |
this is in comparison/in cooperation with a server-wide public power grid (all HV) that has a total installed capacity of some 15 MEU |
| 01:06 |
VanessaE |
(and a load of only some 3 or 4 MEU :P ) |
| 01:07 |
Xiong |
A small LV hydro plant of 4 to 6 mills is accessible early in game and provides enough power to bring mire ambitious plans within reach. |
| 01:07 |
Xiong |
Why do you have a public grid? |
| 01:07 |
VanessaE |
same reason as in real life, actually |
| 01:08 |
VanessaE |
lots of places scattered around the map that use power. a public grid makes sense there |
| 01:08 |
VanessaE |
(plus it has a certain "we're serious about this city" quality) |
| 01:08 |
Xiong |
IRL we feed the drones so they don't riot. |
| 01:08 |
VanessaE |
:P |
| 01:09 |
VanessaE |
that server (which most of refer to as VE-Survival, and which runs the full dreambuilder package) is sort of the acid test for technic, mesecons, and pipeworks performance. |
| 01:10 |
VanessaE |
because of just how extensively those mods are used |
| 01:10 |
Xiong |
I mean, we hand every newborn a pickup truck and a plasma teevee. Life has no challenge. I like to enter the world and start punching trees, no help. |
| 01:10 |
VanessaE |
Sounds like you'd do well on Skyblock :P |
| 01:10 |
VanessaE |
that's as hardcore as it gets |
| 01:11 |
Xiong |
You probably see why I'm content singleplayer. |
| 01:11 |
VanessaE |
try it sometime. |
| 01:11 |
VanessaE |
once that irrlicht bug goes away./ |
| 01:13 |
Xiong |
Truth is, that bug a blessing. I always played on servers back when. Now I have my own world... no neighbors. |
| 01:15 |
Xiong |
Back then, my idea of a server was random spawn. So no two players should ever meet... except by mutual design... but with chat restricted by distance so that tough too. No protection. |
| 01:16 |
Xiong |
Trouble with random spawn on public server is the world file bloats. |
| 01:16 |
VanessaE |
most servers, as far as I know, use the common spawn with a surrounding city paradigm |
| 01:17 |
Xiong |
Which I detest. |
| 01:17 |
VanessaE |
why? it works pretty well aside from the occasional "where can I build?" requests. |
| 01:18 |
Xiong |
Why play a game to be born into developed society? I got that deal in life. |
| 01:18 |
VanessaE |
cooperative play? |
| 01:18 |
VanessaE |
I mean, why do people play Second Life, or whatever the current hawtness is? |
| 01:19 |
Xiong |
Dunno. Why do people join the Face, or go to discos? |
| 01:19 |
VanessaE |
*shrug* to each their own. |
| 01:21 |
Xiong |
I dislike nearly everything about living on a planet with billions of humans. Dental care is supposed to be one of the perks of society, not easy to manage alone. But I can't afford it. |
| 01:23 |
VanessaE |
eh.. |
| 01:23 |
VanessaE |
don't get me started on that. |
| 01:23 |
Xiong |
My most serious grievance is real title, the ownership of land you're not using yourself. So there is essentially no place I am permitted to go and stay and build a home, work as I please. All that is unclaimed is utter desert. |
| 01:25 |
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| 01:25 |
Xiong |
Was I born into serfdom? This is why I live playing mt. Because I can go punch trees with my bare hand, pick a spot I like, and build what I am personally able |
| 01:26 |
Xiong |
Hell. Here in California, even the desert is taken. |
| 01:28 |
* VanessaE |
shrugs |
| 01:31 |
Xiong |
I'm 59. I have worked and paid rent since I was 16. All the excess product of my labor has gone to feed other men... who did nothing for it. Now I am at the end of my productive time and have nothing. My story is not unique nor special... not even unusual. But it is shite. |
| 01:31 |
* VanessaE |
growls loudly |
| 01:32 |
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est31 joined #minetest |
| 01:32 |
VanessaE |
a wile est31 appears! |
| 01:32 |
VanessaE |
:) |
| 01:32 |
VanessaE |
wild* |
| 01:33 |
Xiong |
I decided long ago not to waste anger on reality. But I do struggle as best I can. Or I have, these last years. Now I'm just tired. |
| 01:35 |
Xiong |
Sorry... not to weep and moan. But this illuminates my reasons for playing mt. It's an escape. Why escape from pan to fire? No. I'll singleplayer, thanks. |
| 01:35 |
est31 |
VanessaE: hi |
| 01:36 |
VanessaE |
Xiong: for the record, I live on disability, barely able to make ends meet, and I turn 45 in a couple months. |
| 01:36 |
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piesquared joined #minetest |
| 01:37 |
Xiong |
Hi est31. I gather from VE's invocation you aren't too happy either. Let us not wallow. I'm here to iron out wrinkles in my game. |
| 01:37 |
VanessaE |
(most of my material possessions were acquired while my husband still walked this earth. when something breaks down, it's difficult for me to replace it) |
| 01:37 |
VanessaE |
est31 is a unique individual :) |
| 01:38 |
Xiong |
VanessaE not sure what to say. Congratulations on putting your time to productive use? |
| 01:38 |
VanessaE |
"a wild est31 appears" because he doesn't chat in here much :) |
| 01:38 |
est31 |
not any more at least |
| 01:38 |
Xiong |
We are all unique. |
| 01:38 |
est31 |
Xiong: we are indeed |
| 01:38 |
est31 |
I'd been heavily playing minetest once |
| 01:38 |
VanessaE |
Xiong: translation: you shouldn't compare your situation to serfdom or such things. |
| 01:38 |
est31 |
even became dev |
| 01:38 |
Xiong |
But if everyone is special... nobody is special. |
| 01:38 |
VanessaE |
and minetest still has a grip on you ;Z) |
| 01:38 |
VanessaE |
;) |
| 01:39 |
est31 |
indeed |
| 01:42 |
VanessaE |
Xiong: if "everyone is special", then by definition, everyone must have something truly unique about them. that renders the "then no one is special" clause invalid. |
| 01:42 |
Xiong |
Why not? When did I ever have the freedom promised? The American Dream? 40 acres and a mule? Serfdom, wage slavery, call it what you like. I respect the free market; all I've ever wanted to do is participate in one. But the game is rigged. The winners were born long ago. Upward mobility is a joke... or con. |
| 01:42 |
VanessaE |
the game is rigged because people keep voting trash into office. |
| 01:44 |
Xiong |
Well yes that's the trouble. Voting doesn't work because money can easily sway the mass mind. |
| 01:45 |
VanessaE |
that's not as true as it once was, I think the midterms proved that. |
| 01:45 |
Xiong |
I have long advocated... er, another system of government... which lecture I shall omit. |
| 01:46 |
VanessaE |
nothing wrong with a republic that wouldn't also be wrong with any other governing model, because human nature. |
| 01:46 |
Xiong |
When I see national health, land reform, basic income, and truly harsh penalties exacted for rich felons... I shall believe. |
| 01:46 |
VanessaE |
what's wrong is when people feel they have no say in their future, thus no apparent reason to advocate for a better future, or to vote, or whatever |
| 01:47 |
Xiong |
You tempt me. I have indeed worked out a foolproof constitution. You might not like it. |
| 01:48 |
VanessaE |
you'd be surprised. |
| 01:48 |
VanessaE |
but, not here. |
| 01:48 |
VanessaE |
maybe some other time. |
| 01:49 |
VanessaE |
I'm one of those bleeding-heart, its-almost-time-to-overhaul-the-constitution, knock-down-drag-out liberals Republican congressman want you to be afraid of :P |
| 01:49 |
Xiong |
In the end, the only perfect solution to the social bind is colonization. This used to be obvious. Elon Musk, despite his blatant shortcomings, is our current MVP. Because he has both the power and the commitment to open a frontier. |
| 01:50 |
VanessaE |
meh, Musk's plan is failure before it starts |
| 01:50 |
VanessaE |
(if you mean Mars) |
| 01:51 |
Xiong |
The ultimate guarantee of freedom is the ability to go live apart from the people you can't stand... or can't stand you. |
| 01:51 |
Xiong |
Mars is just the first step. Mars now, the stars tomorrow. |
| 01:52 |
VanessaE |
Mars won't happen. |
| 01:52 |
VanessaE |
not when you're talking about charging hundreds of thousands of bucks per person just to get 150km above Earth. |
| 01:52 |
Xiong |
That's what they said about America. |
| 01:53 |
VanessaE |
we have the tech, the manpower, and enough people that want to go |
| 01:53 |
VanessaE |
we also have too much greed, such that only the rich can go. |
| 01:54 |
est31 |
Musk's plan is to make a one way ticket to mars cost about 100 k USD |
| 01:54 |
|
piesquared joined #minetest |
| 01:54 |
est31 |
that is expensive, but affordable |
| 01:54 |
VanessaE |
unaffordable to most people. |
| 01:54 |
est31 |
true |
| 01:55 |
VanessaE |
thing is, |
| 01:55 |
est31 |
a trip to america was unaffordable for most people as well though |
| 01:55 |
Xiong |
No sane person would sail off the map, risking death just to get here, to inhabit a savage waste. That is exactly the prevailing opinion of the time. As recently as the 1800s, Americans were viewed as fools, simply for living here. |
| 01:55 |
VanessaE |
the people who would be most suitable or desirous of such a trip are the ones who can least afford it. |
| 01:55 |
rubenwardy |
hey est31 |
| 01:55 |
est31 |
hi there rubenwardy |
| 01:55 |
rubenwardy |
Xiong: the world size bloat could be mitigated by only saving blocks which have been modified |
| 01:56 |
rubenwardy |
or just using a 1TB hard drive |
| 01:56 |
rubenwardy |
although - hdds are slower |
| 01:56 |
Xiong |
That'll change too. Many immigrants to the New World have been penniless, even convicts. |
| 01:56 |
VanessaE |
it's like his car. G*d knows I want a nice Model 3 or Model S, but there's no way in hell I'll ever afford one (Unless I hit the lotter) |
| 01:56 |
Cornelia |
I've seen terabyte SSDs :p |
| 01:56 |
VanessaE |
(lottery*) |
| 01:56 |
est31 |
Cornelia: and they are cheap these days |
| 01:57 |
est31 |
like 150 EUR |
| 01:57 |
rubenwardy |
oh really |
| 01:57 |
rubenwardy |
thought they'd be more expensive |
| 01:57 |
VanessaE |
but, I'm the sort of person who would benefit the most from an EV (being that I drive an old gas guzzler) |
| 01:57 |
rubenwardy |
what about on VPSes and dedis? |
| 01:57 |
est31 |
rubenwardy: https://www.mindfactory.de/product_info.php/1000GB-Samsung-860-Evo-2-5Zoll--6-4cm--SATA-6Gb-s-3D-NAND-TLC--MZ-76E1T_1225524.html |
| 01:57 |
VanessaE |
dedi will get you around 600GB SSD (RAID, yet) for under $50/mo |
| 01:57 |
rubenwardy |
VanessaE: he aims for the rich people, because they will pay out of their arses which helps with funding research |
| 01:58 |
VanessaE |
like the one daconcepts.com runson |
| 01:58 |
rubenwardy |
hopefully the tech will trickle down |
| 01:58 |
rubenwardy |
I heard that he opened some patents |
| 01:58 |
Xiong |
Eventually Terra will start shipping felons to Mars. They won't have to pay, they won't have a choice. They'll be forced to slave labor but it will be possible to escape or work it off. Their children will be free. |
| 01:58 |
rubenwardy |
I'm also hoping he'll target the masses eventually, makes sense |
| 01:58 |
rubenwardy |
like Facebook - start as exclusive, then open up |
| 01:59 |
VanessaE |
rubenwardy: well, there's also the Nissan Leaf. that's what, 200 km range with a new battery pack? |
| 01:59 |
rubenwardy |
is that good? |
| 01:59 |
Xiong |
rubenwardy++ |
| 01:59 |
VanessaE |
that's a mediocre range, but those go for something like $30k. well below the average price for a sedan or coupe. |
| 01:59 |
rubenwardy |
being this exclusive also helps change the perception of electric cars |
| 01:59 |
VanessaE |
(which is some $33k) |
| 02:00 |
VanessaE |
but that average price is still out of reach for us poor schmucks. |
| 02:01 |
est31 |
if EV batteries have a wear like smartphone batteries do, then you won't have fun with a used EV either |
| 02:01 |
est31 |
bought my smartphone in 2013 and it has its third battery |
| 02:02 |
est31 |
now imagine doing that with an EV where the battery is the main component of the price of a new car :) |
| 02:02 |
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ANAND joined #minetest |
| 02:02 |
VanessaE |
nah |
| 02:02 |
VanessaE |
EV batts don't work like that |
| 02:02 |
Xiong |
1755 <+rubenwardy> Xiong: the world size bloat could be mitigated... Well yes hey. But the static spawn model dominates.The claustrophobic spawn rooms, walls of signs nobody reads, long hike out of crowded downtown. Do not like. |
| 02:03 |
VanessaE |
modern EV battery tech is good for 10-15 years, beyond which you're looking at maybe half the range as when new, at worst. |
| 02:03 |
est31 |
VanessaE: cool |
| 02:04 |
VanessaE |
I seem to recall Tesla rating their batt modules as 80% of new capacity, or better, at that age range. |
| 02:05 |
VanessaE |
Xiong: regarding world size bloat: use leveldb instead of sqlite for your map database backend |
| 02:05 |
VanessaE |
(does the mobile client support that?)_ |
| 02:05 |
Xiong |
Uh... I drive a taxicab. Here in SF, hybrids are mandated. We have many years' experience with batteries. It has not bern great. I can show you photos of a car still on our lot that came to end of life. Not pretty. |
| 02:05 |
est31 |
used to but it was disabled iirc |
| 02:06 |
est31 |
I remember reviewing a PR by monte |
| 02:06 |
est31 |
maybe it has been enabled again tho |
| 02:06 |
VanessaE |
Xiong: not hybrid batts. those are still usually lead-acid, are they not? |
| 02:06 |
VanessaE |
true EV batts are LiPo |
| 02:07 |
Xiong |
VanessaE Nonissue. I rarely go outside a 1 km radius. |
| 02:07 |
Xiong |
Nono, hybrids Li-ion. |
| 02:07 |
VanessaE |
ok. |
| 02:07 |
VanessaE |
I"m thinking PRius. |
| 02:07 |
VanessaE |
those used lead-acid. |
| 02:08 |
VanessaE |
(and their batts would shit the bed after about 5 years) |
| 02:08 |
Xiong |
I'm not an expert. I just see what I see. |
| 02:09 |
VanessaE |
either way, I wish I had one. plug-in hybrid or full EV. instead, '92 deVille that's showing its age |
| 02:09 |
Xiong |
Okay always fun chat but either I go play mt or wash my socks. See you all. |
| 02:11 |
* VanessaE |
imagines Xiong breaking out the tub and washboard |
| 02:11 |
VanessaE |
:) |
| 02:20 |
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| 03:16 |
exio4 |
VanessaE: lead-acid hasn't been used in electric vehicles in a long time |
| 03:17 |
VanessaE |
I know now :P |
| 03:18 |
VanessaE |
not that it matters. only upper middle class and beyond can afford the damn things anyway |
| 03:18 |
exio4 |
est31: btw, when it comes to "battery endurance" - there's many kinds of chemistries, nowadays on phones the "most-dense" batteries are used, and you try to get the most, even if it means the battery will be garbage after 4 years |
| 03:19 |
exio4 |
on EVs, teslas to give a "fancy example" - batteries are rarely charged to 100%, instead of 80%, and you'll likely avoid discharging it to 0% or very low percents, although you can |
| 03:19 |
exio4 |
on a phone you will likely not care if you run out of battery normally :) |
| 03:21 |
exio4 |
VanessaE: the nissan leaf seems to do 240~ km |
| 03:21 |
exio4 |
just googled |
| 03:21 |
VanessaE |
nice |
| 03:21 |
exio4 |
either way, electric vehicles are complicated in terms of range |
| 03:22 |
exio4 |
because on urban settings, on "ideal" conditions (saving on heating/cooling, etc), it'll last forever |
| 03:22 |
VanessaE |
though 200 vs 240, close enough :P |
| 03:22 |
exio4 |
while on a road, at 110km/h, your range will go down quickly |
| 03:22 |
exio4 |
it might be 260-290 on an urban setting |
| 03:22 |
exio4 |
maybe more |
| 03:23 |
VanessaE |
oh well. may as well be 1000 km, still can't afford one :P |
| 03:23 |
exio4 |
VanessaE: not even a renault zoe? |
| 03:23 |
VanessaE |
*googles* |
| 03:24 |
VanessaE |
looks to be in the $27k range |
| 03:24 |
exio4 |
VanessaE: you could get an used 1y year old EV |
| 03:24 |
VanessaE |
not a chance. |
| 03:24 |
VanessaE |
not with my income and poor credit. |
| 03:25 |
exio4 |
where are you from again? |
| 03:25 |
exio4 |
US? UK? |
| 03:25 |
VanessaE |
western North Carolina. |
| 03:25 |
exio4 |
oh |
| 03:25 |
exio4 |
well, you need to think you get to pay a lot less due to tax benefits |
| 03:25 |
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| 03:26 |
exio4 |
iirc it can be like $12k in the nicest states |
| 03:26 |
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| 03:26 |
VanessaE |
on average, a 1-year-old used car will command around 50-75% of its original price if it's in like-new condition. |
| 03:26 |
exio4 |
electric vehicles depreciate a lot faster |
| 03:27 |
exio4 |
because "battery fear", advances in batteries, and so |
| 03:27 |
exio4 |
so the previous model might boost only 75% or so of the range of the newer model |
| 03:27 |
VanessaE |
but when you make less than $11k/year, no one's gonna sell you a car that you can't pay cash on the barrel for. |
| 03:27 |
exio4 |
oh |
| 03:27 |
exio4 |
RIP |
| 03:27 |
VanessaE |
yup. |
| 03:27 |
exio4 |
$11k a year is low even here |
| 03:28 |
exio4 |
well, not low low rn because my currency just fucked up |
| 03:28 |
exio4 |
so right now that's a nice wage, but *two months ago* it wasn't |
| 03:28 |
VanessaE |
$11k/year is low no matter where you go in the US. might be good livin' in China or something though :P |
| 03:29 |
exio4 |
VanessaE: I'm from Argentina, though |
| 03:29 |
exio4 |
:P |
| 03:29 |
VanessaE |
I have no guesses how well someone can live on US $11k/year there :P |
| 03:29 |
exio4 |
I hear it's pretty good in California! |
| 03:29 |
* exio4 |
hides |
| 03:30 |
VanessaE |
hah. |
| 03:30 |
VanessaE |
maybe on some parallel earth. |
| 03:30 |
exio4 |
the inverse-earth |
| 03:30 |
VanessaE |
(earth 90 ought to be getting pretty cheap by now :P ) |
| 03:30 |
exio4 |
where california is actually a cheap place to live? |
| 03:30 |
exio4 |
I want an EV |
| 03:30 |
exio4 |
but I have no money for any kind of vehicle anyway lol |
| 03:31 |
exio4 |
and over here there's pretty much no market for EVs, so you don't find ads for it or so |
| 03:31 |
exio4 |
they just became legal two years ago or so |
| 03:31 |
VanessaE |
I have to scrimp and save for any repairs on my car that exceed about $75. |
| 03:32 |
exio4 |
you seem to be living like you're argentine |
| 03:32 |
VanessaE |
(and there's one looming on the horizon that I am *not at all* happy about) |
| 03:32 |
VanessaE |
heh |
| 03:33 |
exio4 |
have you tried applying for argentine citizenship? i mean, doing magic tricks with money - that's basically what people do here! |
| 03:33 |
VanessaE |
my 3d printer helps a bit though. 25¢ worth of filament and electricity saves me $45 :P |
| 03:33 |
exio4 |
damn |
| 03:33 |
exio4 |
I want a 3D printer |
| 03:33 |
exio4 |
but again, stuff here is expensive :( |
| 03:34 |
VanessaE |
I got mine when times were still decent. |
| 03:34 |
exio4 |
importing stuff here is deadly expensive |
| 03:34 |
exio4 |
so getting ship from china means 50% taxes if I do it |
| 03:34 |
VanessaE |
you can get one similar to mine for around $150 on eBay |
| 03:34 |
exio4 |
getting stuff shipped* |
| 03:34 |
VanessaE |
and filament goes for around $12/kg |
| 03:34 |
VanessaE |
of course shipping is the killer |
| 03:35 |
exio4 |
more like taxes here :P |
| 03:35 |
VanessaE |
(clarification: "meh quality" filament is around $12/kg. high-end stuff is $30-35/kg) |
| 03:36 |
VanessaE |
what if you get it shipped from the US? |
| 03:36 |
VanessaE |
at least then you have a land route and all |
| 03:36 |
exio4 |
VanessaE: it's the same |
| 03:36 |
VanessaE |
hm |
| 03:37 |
exio4 |
there's only exceptions if I go through a courier IIRC |
| 03:37 |
exio4 |
the trick is that it is limited to 5 times a year |
| 03:37 |
VanessaE |
that sucks :-/ |
| 03:38 |
exio4 |
yup |
| 03:38 |
exio4 |
either way, I'm leaving soon |
| 03:38 |
exio4 |
as soon as I get my degree I'm leaving :P |
| 03:39 |
VanessaE |
the irony of my statement: my printer's down. burned-out primary power connector (it's a common failure on this model), new, better connectors are already on-order. |
| 03:39 |
VanessaE |
where are you headed then? |
| 03:39 |
piesquared |
3D printed connectors? :p |
| 03:39 |
VanessaE |
heh. |
| 03:39 |
VanessaE |
in theory, I could, if I had the actual metal contacts :P |
| 03:41 |
exio4 |
VanessaE: I plan going to Spain for a few years with the goal of obtaining Spanish citizenship and thus access to the EU |
| 03:41 |
VanessaE |
cool. |
| 03:41 |
exio4 |
hopefully! |
| 03:41 |
VanessaE |
just make sure you don't disappear from here :) |
| 03:41 |
exio4 |
heh |
| 03:41 |
exio4 |
I did disappear for a few months |
| 03:41 |
exio4 |
maybe a year or so |
| 03:41 |
VanessaE |
I know. |
| 03:41 |
VanessaE |
we all missed ya :) |
| 03:42 |
exio4 |
aww <3 |
| 03:42 |
exio4 |
you didn't forget about me! |
| 03:42 |
VanessaE |
which reminds me, what do you hear from kaeza? |
| 03:42 |
exio4 |
I haven't heard about him in a long time |
| 03:42 |
VanessaE |
bummer |
| 03:43 |
exio4 |
he seems to have EmailMemos enabled & his user has been seen lately |
| 03:43 |
exio4 |
in other words, he's still around freenode, but not in #minetest - and he's using another nick apparently :P |
| 03:43 |
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| 03:43 |
VanessaE |
still rockin' the cell-phone-based internet I bet :) |
| 03:44 |
exio4 |
heh |
| 03:44 |
VanessaE |
evening, LazyJ |
| 03:44 |
LazyJ |
Howdy VanessaE ;) |
| 03:45 |
exio4 |
man, EVs are so awesome |
| 03:45 |
exio4 |
Teslas changed the market for vehicles by making a fancy electric vehicle which actually had awesome range, etc :P |
| 03:45 |
exio4 |
expensive car for sure |
| 03:45 |
exio4 |
but still |
| 03:46 |
VanessaE |
an EV would do well here, with this hilly terrain. regenerative braking :) |
| 03:47 |
est31 |
EVs can accel so fast |
| 03:47 |
est31 |
really cool |
| 04:01 |
exio4 |
I'm just so hyped about the fact that they're so efficient |
| 04:03 |
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| 05:06 |
Xiong |
Ahh. Disassembling a moretrees tree is not short work. I feel I've accomplished sth. |
| 05:07 |
Xiong |
When I started this world I sought rubber trees... and found one almost at spawn. I resolved not to touch it and I've gone to take others. Unfortunately, the prize was hemmed in by seven cedars. |
| 05:09 |
Xiong |
Now the cedars are gone... and there is a nice fence about the rubber tree and whatever shrubs happened to fall within its limits.I'm delighted with myself... doesn't happen daily. |
| 05:17 |
Xiong |
VanessaE I used to have a washboard. It was rigged to play as a percussion instrument. Long ago. When I settled on the banjo my then-partner took up the wasboard. Then the mandolin, but tuning that became my job... not a natural musician she. Dunno the washboard ended up where the brass clarinet went. |
| 05:18 |
VanessaE |
dude, kill the joke dead, why don't ya :P |
| 05:18 |
Xiong |
Once saw a good washboard player at a folky fair. I swear she was hitting sixty-fourth notes. |
| 05:19 |
Xiong |
Normally I wait for percussion solos to end. Not this. |
| 05:20 |
Xiong |
Sorry? No joke. Really did play washboard a time. |
| 05:20 |
VanessaE |
not play. |
| 05:20 |
VanessaE |
literally use as a washboard. |
| 05:20 |
VanessaE |
you mentioned washing your socks |
| 05:21 |
Xiong |
Well, not well. Not a great banjo player either. |
| 05:21 |
Xiong |
Oh. Figure of speech. I send them out. |
| 05:23 |
Xiong |
I decided long ago I was too poor to do my own laundry. About a year ago I was feeling poorly, recovering from never mind, took my stuff to Laundromat to get out. Felt good to move around but never again. |
| 05:23 |
Xiong |
Laundromat eats time better spent working. For me anyway. |
| 05:24 |
Xiong |
Erm... also Mama Wang does a much better job. ;) |
| 05:25 |
tune |
Wait, what? How can you be too poor to do your own laundry? I would think it'd be cheaper to do yourself (as most things are). |
| 05:26 |
tune |
I guess electric dryers use a lot of power. You'd have to compare the cost of regularly using your own equipment to how much you spend at the laundromat per month, I suppose. |
| 05:26 |
tune |
(or wash and dry via more traditional methods, maybe scrub with soap and hot water in a sink and then dry in the sun on a clothes line) |
| 05:27 |
Xiong |
BTW have rebuilt hydro plant to MV past 10 kW... plenty if room for expansion. I just have the mills in vertical stacks, with cable in a stack to rear. Works great 100%, thank you! |
| 05:27 |
VanessaE |
Xiong: kEU, not kW :P |
| 05:29 |
Xiong |
Time is money, tune. I'm self-employed so if I never ate or slept I'd be rich. As it is, older I get, more I must rest. |
| 05:29 |
VanessaE |
time != money >:( |
| 05:29 |
Xiong |
The Electrical Unit of power is the watt. |
| 05:29 |
VanessaE |
nonono |
| 05:29 |
VanessaE |
an EU is an "energy unit" |
| 05:30 |
Xiong |
Well... there are other units. |
| 05:30 |
VanessaE |
they're more analogous to a joule than a watt |
| 05:30 |
VanessaE |
(or more like 1EU is some tens or hundreds of thousands of joules) |
| 05:30 |
Xiong |
Um sorry no. A joule is one watt second... or a watt is one joule per second. |
| 05:31 |
VanessaE |
well anyway, EUs are both a unit of energy and of power. |
| 05:32 |
VanessaE |
I guess when used as a unit of power EU/m would be roughly right. |
| 05:32 |
Xiong |
So the energy stored in a battery or capacitor can be measured in joules. The output of a generator is a rate, so watts. |
| 05:32 |
VanessaE |
RBA and I went a few rounds over this -- he explicitly wanted to avoid relating technic power to watts/volts/joules. |
| 05:33 |
VanessaE |
but in the absence of a more fitting measure, we stuck to volts at least. |
| 05:33 |
Xiong |
No unit of measure can apply to both power and energy. That'd be like measuring area with a yardstick. |
| 05:34 |
VanessaE |
I know that, and you know that, and so did RBA. but here we are :P |
| 05:34 |
Xiong |
Oh, call 'em what you like. |
| 05:35 |
VanessaE |
anyway, a battery stored EU, but power on a line is best thought of as EU/min. |
| 05:35 |
VanessaE |
stores* |
| 05:35 |
VanessaE |
this DOES need addressed some day. |
| 05:35 |
Xiong |
I just... think in conventional terms. Realistically an industrial grinder would burn kilowatts... quite a few. But I stick to watts in my head. |
| 05:36 |
Xiong |
But then "realistically" opens so many cans of worms we could open a seafood restaurant. |
| 05:37 |
VanessaE |
if we just change all labels "EU" to "EU/min", except for on batteries (and adjust their charge/discharge rated) I think that would be enough. |
| 05:37 |
VanessaE |
nore ^ |
| 05:37 |
VanessaE |
what say EU? ;) |
| 05:37 |
Xiong |
Well. If you do... change battery capacity to watt hours. That's the US convention. |
| 05:38 |
VanessaE |
no. |
| 05:38 |
VanessaE |
technic isn't a US mod :) |
| 05:38 |
Xiong |
Well then use European units. Never no mind. |
| 05:38 |
VanessaE |
RBA was from germany, though I imagine they use watts and watt-hours pretty much everywhere |
| 05:39 |
Xiong |
Watt isn't incompatible with the metric system. |
| 05:39 |
Xiong |
Hell you can use horsepower. |
| 05:39 |
VanessaE |
um...okay? |
| 05:39 |
Xiong |
Or ergs. |
| 05:41 |
Xiong |
Anyway it's all abstract. You have lossless cabling... superconductors. It's just a model. |
| 05:41 |
VanessaE |
yup, |
| 05:41 |
VanessaE |
hence the fictional EU. |
| 05:41 |
sofar |
EPTU |
| 05:41 |
sofar |
EU -> per time -> EPTU |
| 05:42 |
VanessaE |
or just EUM :) |
| 05:42 |
VanessaE |
EU (per) minute :) |
| 05:42 |
sofar |
MEH |
| 05:42 |
VanessaE |
heh |
| 05:42 |
Xiong |
Well go ahead. But you gotta decide whether it's a unit of power or energy. Until then, I stick with watts and joules. |
| 05:43 |
VanessaE |
calling it a unit of energy is easiest, then EUM/EPTU/whatever becomes the unit of power and is merely a label change. |
| 05:44 |
VanessaE |
"a battery stores 20,000 EU and charges at a rate of 10,000 EUM" or some such |
| 05:44 |
Xiong |
sofar yeh but how much time? |
| 05:45 |
VanessaE |
(that's just an example. I do not recall how fast batteries can charge/discharge) |
| 05:45 |
Xiong |
Units of measure are kinda like numbers. You can do math with them. But they must be defined. |
| 05:46 |
Xiong |
VanessaE This is in a world where a day can pass in an hour. In my world I've stopped time... it's always noon. So I wouldn't worry about it. Just do what's easy and stick with it. |
| 05:50 |
Xiong |
I look at a grinder, I think watts. I look at a battery... well, I think amp hours, then I think I don't wanna peel the wallpaper off "MV" so I think watt hours and now I'm turned around so I think joules. And wrap some more duct tape around my head. |
| 05:51 |
VanessaE |
heh |
| 05:52 |
Xiong |
At least technic cable handles well... very well. I have a real distaste for mesecons. What world does a blob of solder cost a whole block of magic? These are lightweight signal connections. |
| 05:53 |
VanessaE |
"a blob of solder"? |
| 05:54 |
Xiong |
Never know where they'll connect. A roll of bell wire would serve in place of about 12 different mesecons nodes. |
| 05:54 |
VanessaE |
when I last checked, a mese block could ultimately split into something like 81 wires |
| 05:54 |
Xiong |
Yah. All of them weird. |
| 05:55 |
Xiong |
And the verticals are different. And weird in other ways. |
| 05:56 |
VanessaE |
strange, I thought regular wires made sense just fine, though verticals can be a little confusing, which is why I often use stacks of mese blocks instea |
| 05:56 |
VanessaE |
d |
| 05:56 |
Xiong |
In fact I should forget tinkering with the drill modes. That only matters to anyone mad enough to run technic on a phone. |
| 05:56 |
VanessaE |
and anyway, there are insulated wires, they connect only and precisely how you place them. |
| 05:57 |
VanessaE |
unified mesecons mod in there will let you colorize them, also |
| 05:57 |
Xiong |
I should tackle mesecons and replace all the weird stuff with "bell wire". |
| 05:57 |
Xiong |
You don't do a lot of breadboard eh? |
| 05:58 |
VanessaE |
not in years. |
| 05:59 |
Xiong |
I don't sit down with a box of 18 scraps of wire. I have a roll and cut off what I need. I can't imagine throwing out a piece of straight wire because I need a bent one. |
| 05:59 |
Xiong |
Look at technic cable. It just works. |
| 06:00 |
VanessaE |
so does mescons. |
| 06:00 |
Xiong |
Haha. |
| 06:00 |
VanessaE |
it just uses a different model. |
| 06:00 |
VanessaE |
remember, mesecons is meant to act like redstone |
| 06:00 |
Xiong |
Well stinks. |
| 06:00 |
VanessaE |
so it has to lie flat on nodes' surfaces. |
| 06:00 |
Xiong |
Forget mc. |
| 06:01 |
VanessaE |
whereas technic sorta models redpower II if I remember right |
| 06:01 |
VanessaE |
tell that to Jeija |
| 06:01 |
VanessaE |
:) |
| 06:01 |
Xiong |
You can't place two mesecon wires in the same node. So adhering to one face is moot. |
| 06:02 |
VanessaE |
of course you can't. |
| 06:02 |
VanessaE |
that's an engine limitation |
| 06:02 |
VanessaE |
not a mod limitation |
| 06:02 |
VanessaE |
however, |
| 06:02 |
VanessaE |
there is an insulated crossing wire. |
| 06:03 |
Xiong |
In fact... in my hypothetical redo... that would be sth to fix. Place a second wire in the same 1 meter box, wow. Maybe even three. |
| 06:03 |
VanessaE |
impossible to fix. |
| 06:03 |
VanessaE |
can't be done. |
| 06:03 |
Xiong |
Ohno. Replace the single wire with a double-wire node. |
| 06:05 |
Xiong |
You know much better than I how to do it. Grinders don't really turn on... they're replaced with ?_active. |
| 06:05 |
VanessaE |
there has to be one node definition per wire shape, because the engine doesn't have a "mesecons-like" or "redstone-like" drawtype, so it has to be done manually. I forget how many shapes, maybe 30 or 40? double that for on/off (light, no light) states. add a second wire to the node? that'll be 80*80 = 6400 nodes, and that would be just one color. |
| 06:06 |
VanessaE |
technic gets away with it because its cabling can use the connected node draw method, and it doesn't have light/no-light states. |
| 06:06 |
Xiong |
Need a new tool... pliers. Reach into node, twist the wires around. Go through messy formspec probly. |
| 06:06 |
VanessaE |
there's an "extrawires" mod that may help |
| 06:07 |
VanessaE |
it implements some of what you want. |
| 06:07 |
Xiong |
No, the isomorphism group of a cube isn't that large. |
| 06:07 |
VanessaE |
the what? |
| 06:08 |
Xiong |
There aren't very many ways to define a set of cube faces as connected. |
| 06:09 |
Xiong |
The mt engine is okay with rotations. |
| 06:09 |
VanessaE |
rotation isn't enough :P |
| 06:09 |
VanessaE |
and mesecons predates the modern methods. |
| 06:09 |
Xiong |
Nope but isomorphism up to rotation is a small group. |
| 06:09 |
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| 06:10 |
VanessaE |
remember, mesecon wires don't just connect horizontally. they climb, too. |
| 06:10 |
VanessaE |
that's why there's do many unique shapes. |
| 06:10 |
Xiong |
Right. A cube has six faces. They should be distinguished but handled alike. |
| 06:11 |
Xiong |
Wait, I'll dig up an eli5. |
| 06:11 |
VanessaE |
a cube has six faces. a cube with climbing walls has 9 (no top). |
| 06:12 |
VanessaE |
a wire can enter from one side, let's say X+, connect to wires crossing from say Z-/Z+, and then exit going up a hill along X- |
| 06:13 |
Xiong |
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cube#Uniform_colorings_and_symmetry |
| 06:14 |
Xiong |
Ignore the stuff about colorings. Also see that only max three wires can pass the cube. |
| 06:14 |
VanessaE |
"can pass the cube"? |
| 06:14 |
Xiong |
There are only six faces; each useful wire must connect at least two. |
| 06:15 |
VanessaE |
you're ignoring climbing hills. |
| 06:15 |
VanessaE |
in that instance, a wire may connect up to 6 faces. |
| 06:15 |
Xiong |
So the isomorphism group collapses. You can practically count them on your fingers, up to rotation. |
| 06:16 |
Xiong |
Yes ... one wire six faces. Then no room for any more wire. Where would it go? |
| 06:16 |
VanessaE |
there are four more faces to consider. |
| 06:17 |
Xiong |
Nono. That's one case: one wire six faces. |
| 06:17 |
VanessaE |
no. |
| 06:18 |
Xiong |
There's also one wire two faces adjaccent, and two faces opposed. |
| 06:18 |
Xiong |
Then one wire three on corner |
| 06:19 |
Xiong |
And one to three in a U shape. |
| 06:20 |
VanessaE |
well maybe I'm wrong on the total numbers |
| 06:20 |
VanessaE |
but my point stands. |
| 06:20 |
Xiong |
one wire four-face... all same no matter how you do. |
| 06:20 |
Xiong |
Sorry. Two forms. |
| 06:21 |
Xiong |
One wire five faces one form. |
| 06:22 |
Xiong |
We'll ignore the empty set for now but in practice just as easy to leave the wire in the nide and completely disconnect it. |
| 06:23 |
VanessaE |
well however many individual node definitions there are, what you're asking for (some kind of generic, free-form wiring with up to three conductors in a node) would take lots of node defintions. |
| 06:24 |
VanessaE |
I don't think mesecons uses rotation for its shape defs, but let's assume it does, so you have like 10 unique definitions. that's 1000 nodes to allow for three conductors, if they are all the same color. |
| 06:24 |
VanessaE |
double that because they have on/off states. |
| 06:24 |
Xiong |
Well. As many as moretrees, plantlife, and that damn seaweed? (Not that I don't appreciate the authenticity of the pest). |
| 06:25 |
Xiong |
Nonono. Nowhere near 1000. |
| 06:25 |
VanessaE |
how do you figure? |
| 06:26 |
Xiong |
Erm... you need to be comfortable with geometry and group theory? |
| 06:26 |
Xiong |
Dunno. |
| 06:26 |
VanessaE |
when I last checked, it would be number of states ^ number of positions |
| 06:26 |
Xiong |
I'm a funny guy. My mother was funny but not quite the same way. |
| 06:26 |
VanessaE |
so if we have 10 node defs and three wires, that's 10³ |
| 06:27 |
VanessaE |
and then, we couldn't use that because it assumes rotation. without rotation, there are far more nodes defined for just one wire, hence my guess of around 30 or 40 |
| 06:28 |
Xiong |
Rubik's Cube came out, I was in the Army. Army gives you stsnd around and wait. I carried the cube in my pocket every minute, took it apart. Took me five months to crack it. |
| 06:30 |
VanessaE |
well if you think you can math it out, I'm sure Jeija would be interested. |
| 06:30 |
Xiong |
I took it apart again, gave it some silicone grease, and got my average time to about 45 sec. Feelin good. Then home, I showed my mother. Remember, this was a new thing then. |
| 06:32 |
Xiong |
She took one look and said Yeh, I saw that. The solution is obvious. It's just the rotation group of a 3 cube yattayatta... (I'm not a mathmatician) and the minimal path is X and the hoge is piyo |
| 06:32 |
VanessaE |
yeah, see maths is not at all my thing. |
| 06:33 |
Xiong |
So I handed the cube to her; she wouldn't take it. She said she lacked the manual dexterity needed actually to work it. *rimshot* |
| 06:34 |
VanessaE |
but the bottom line is the more wires you want to pass through the node, the more node defs you need, because they'd have to be able to go any which way, and you wouldn't be able to use rotation, as that would complicate the circuit math too much |
| 06:34 |
VanessaE |
minetest does not have a concept of micro blocks. one unique shape, pattern, mesh, whatever, is one node definition. |
| 06:35 |
Xiong |
Except rotation is okay. Called "facedir". |
| 06:35 |
VanessaE |
I know that, you know. |
| 06:37 |
Xiong |
Actually I don't know why there can't be exactly one nodedef... with a tiny bit of metadata attached. |
| 06:37 |
VanessaE |
because the engine has no support for such a thing. |
| 06:37 |
VanessaE |
the closest is connected nodeboxes |
| 06:37 |
VanessaE |
which is what technic uses |
| 06:37 |
Xiong |
Eh? All kinds of nodes have metadata. Look at a chest. |
| 06:38 |
VanessaE |
but those can't climb walls. |
| 06:38 |
Xiong |
??? |
| 06:38 |
Xiong |
Of course. I have often built chest walls. |
| 06:38 |
VanessaE |
the engine has no support for using metadata to alter the appearance of the mesh. |
| 06:39 |
Xiong |
I think you're hung up on the visuals. I don't care what it looks like. |
| 06:39 |
VanessaE |
I am hung up on what I know the engine can and cannot do. |
| 06:39 |
Xiong |
So... |
| 06:39 |
VanessaE |
mods cannot alter the engine behavior, so we can't just add new drawtypes at-will. |
| 06:40 |
Xiong |
So... |
| 06:40 |
VanessaE |
as I was saying, |
| 06:40 |
Xiong |
Howabout the same as LV cable? |
| 06:40 |
Xiong |
Or pipeworks tubes? |
| 06:41 |
Xiong |
That's visual enough for me. |
| 06:41 |
VanessaE |
the closest to what you want (one node def no matter how many shapes it can make) is connected nodeboxes like tubes and technic cables use, but they can't climb up/down to meet other nodes *in response to a neighbor above or below* |
| 06:41 |
Xiong |
Eh? |
| 06:42 |
Xiong |
I have no trouble connecting cables and pipes. None. |
| 06:42 |
VanessaE |
the engine simply does not check anything except the nodes to the 6 sides. |
| 06:42 |
VanessaE |
ok ok, look |
| 06:42 |
Xiong |
Right. |
| 06:43 |
VanessaE |
imagine a 3x3x3 volume, as in a rubik's cube. |
| 06:43 |
VanessaE |
your target node is at the cented. |
| 06:43 |
VanessaE |
center* |
| 06:43 |
Xiong |
Do not want the wires zipping across the room. The adjacent 6 nodes are the universe. |
| 06:43 |
Xiong |
"Target"? |
| 06:43 |
VanessaE |
the place where you put your first piece of wire or tube. |
| 06:44 |
Xiong |
Right right. |
| 06:44 |
VanessaE |
with the drawtype used by technic cable, and pipeworks tubes, only the 6 nodes adjacent to that space' |
| 06:44 |
VanessaE |
s kfkldsjoj;gfhjspkwhgjpikhhijpshaijghodsa |
| 06:44 |
VanessaE |
with the drawtype used by technic cable, and pipeworks tubes, only the 6 nodes adjacent to that space's sides are checked when deciding what connects to what |
| 06:45 |
Xiong |
Having done so I now have a solder blob in midair, half a meter from the floor. |
| 06:45 |
VanessaE |
in the rubik's example, that's the middle of each outside face, right? |
| 06:45 |
Xiong |
I drop another blob to one side, a third on top of the first. |
| 06:46 |
Xiong |
I think three dimensionally. So okay. |
| 06:46 |
VanessaE |
right. now, what happens if you fill in that fourth spot to go around the edge? |
| 06:46 |
Xiong |
The third blob has no knowledge of the second. So? |
| 06:46 |
VanessaE |
gah never mind. |
| 06:46 |
VanessaE |
just forget it. |
| 06:47 |
Xiong |
Why? |
| 06:47 |
VanessaE |
because I'd need to make a few sketches, but you being on a mobile is going to complicate it |
| 06:47 |
Xiong |
Either the fourth blob touched an existing blob or does not. If not, it's not an issue. |
| 06:48 |
VanessaE |
ok let's do it this way: |
| 06:48 |
VanessaE |
erase your mental whiteboard :P |
| 06:48 |
Xiong |
I agree a sketch would be handy. But go on... |
| 06:48 |
VanessaE |
draw a rubik's cube, split into slices of 3x3 pieces. |
| 06:49 |
VanessaE |
assume there is a piece at the center, instead of the toy's 6-way hub. |
| 06:49 |
Xiong |
Yes. The center cube touches only the six face cubes. |
| 06:50 |
VanessaE |
let's number the spaces from top to bottom, left to right, back to front. 1-9 on the top slice, 10-18 on the middle slice, 19-27 on the bottom |
| 06:50 |
VanessaE |
so out center is space #14 |
| 06:50 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/14 -- Jack o lantern by Myu-Unix |
| 06:50 |
VanessaE |
shaddup, bot. |
| 06:51 |
Xiong |
The face cubes touch only the center cubes and four edges each. Each edge cube touches two faces and two corners. Each corner touches three edges. |
| 06:51 |
VanessaE |
don't overthink it. |
| 06:51 |
VanessaE |
just put your "blob of solder" on space 14. |
| 06:51 |
Xiong |
I have overthought the 3-cube long ago. Sorry. |
| 06:52 |
VanessaE |
add another blob to space 15, with a wire connecting back to 14. then another on/to space 5. that's what you mentally drew earlier, right? |
| 06:52 |
Xiong |
Blob in center yes. ID 14. |
| 06:53 |
Xiong |
No sorry, your model insufficiently specified. Let me draw okay. See you in a few. |
| 06:54 |
VanessaE |
my model is a 3x3x3 volume of cubes, as in the game. |
| 06:54 |
VanessaE |
just split into slices to make it easier to draw. like "3d chess" from star trek :P |
| 06:55 |
VanessaE |
Xiong: does this site work for you? https://awwapp.com/b/uyoy7t6e3/ |
| 07:08 |
Xiong |
https://i.imgur.com/zSTEU5b.png |
| 07:08 |
Xiong |
Sorry it tool so long. I think it is unambiguous. |
| 07:08 |
Xiong |
Nothing works on Android. |
| 07:09 |
VanessaE |
try anyway? |
| 07:09 |
Xiong |
Does my model stink? |
| 07:09 |
VanessaE |
no, but it doesn't reflect what I described. |
| 07:10 |
VanessaE |
(not surprising, doing this over text without a realtime whiteboard is a pain in the ass. |
| 07:10 |
VanessaE |
) |
| 07:10 |
Xiong |
erm it reflects a cube dissected into 27 smaller cubes. |
| 07:10 |
VanessaE |
yes, but the spaces you highlighted aren't the ones I indicated. |
| 07:10 |
VanessaE |
gimme a second. |
| 07:11 |
Xiong |
It's easy to talk about each subcube precisely. |
| 07:11 |
Xiong |
No. I chose those exemplars for surety in orientation. |
| 07:13 |
Xiong |
We can't see 111 but we both know where it is. We also know where 012 is. And so on. Unambiguous. |
| 07:13 |
Xiong |
I even put Y up, although I think it's silly. But this is how we roll. |
| 07:13 |
VanessaE |
wait. |
| 07:13 |
VanessaE |
busy..., |
| 07:14 |
Xiong |
While you do that.... |
| 07:15 |
Xiong |
I say I put a wire... which the first just looks like a little cube or blob like a lone bit of technic cable. For talking, we say that wireblob is at 111. |
| 07:17 |
Xiong |
Second I place wire at 112. This is adjacent, so connects. Third at 121, adj to 111 so connects to it... but not to 112. |
| 07:18 |
Xiong |
I desire earnestly to know where the fourth wireblob goes. |
| 07:19 |
VanessaE |
https://i.imgur.com/PnW2gFm.png |
| 07:20 |
Xiong |
There are no numbers or words. |
| 07:20 |
VanessaE |
the red dots are the example I was trying to give. tubes or technic cable. they'll form a loop, right? the green dots represent two mesecons wire. if using the same drawtype as tubes/cables, what you see is what you'd get. |
| 07:20 |
VanessaE |
meh forget the numbers, just look at the layout. |
| 07:21 |
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| 07:21 |
Xiong |
Unclear your point. They're unconnected dots. |
| 07:22 |
Xiong |
Two of the sketches are the same. One is empty. |
| 07:22 |
VanessaE |
anyway, the green dots represent a mesecons circuit climbing a hill. two pieces of wire occupying two node spaces. the green cuby things at the top right, that's what they'd do in-world. |
| 07:22 |
Xiong |
Hill? |
| 07:22 |
VanessaE |
yeah. |
| 07:23 |
VanessaE |
you know, going from a start point to let's say X+1, Y+1? |
| 07:23 |
Xiong |
In our terms there are only nodes... locations. |
| 07:23 |
VanessaE |
yes, same thing |
| 07:24 |
Xiong |
What is so broken with my model that you will not use it? A highly specific language is established... terse and unambiguous. |
| 07:24 |
VanessaE |
knock that off, please. |
| 07:24 |
VanessaE |
ok, look... if you placed four tubes or technic cables at the spaces marked in red, what would it form? |
| 07:25 |
Xiong |
No. Took me 13 min to draw and post. Not invented here? |
| 07:25 |
VanessaE |
*facepalm* |
| 07:26 |
Xiong |
It's exact, simple, and durable. It's obviously extensible to more than 27 cubes. |
| 07:26 |
VanessaE |
your model isn't usable because I can only see 3 faces of the volume, and thus some of the sub-cubes are hidden. that's why I said to split it into slices, as in my drawing. |
| 07:26 |
Xiong |
I can see all 27 cubes in my head. |
| 07:27 |
VanessaE |
I'm not in your head. |
| 07:27 |
VanessaE |
I can see all 27 in my drawing, flat otui. |
| 07:27 |
VanessaE |
flat out* |
| 07:27 |
Xiong |
Yes but you can see them all in your head too. No? |
| 07:27 |
VanessaE |
yes, but in my drawing I have already laid out the example I was trying to describe earlier. |
| 07:28 |
Xiong |
The red cube is 000. The center is 111. |
| 07:28 |
VanessaE |
sigh |
| 07:28 |
VanessaE |
will you please just use my drawing |
| 07:28 |
Xiong |
And I can't make heads or tails of what you've drawn, sorry. |
| 07:30 |
Xiong |
Life is give and take. If you can't take what I give, you need to say why it sucks. I can draw the model differently. Perhaps the model is not self-consistent. But I don't think it's broken. |
| 07:30 |
VanessaE |
what's wrong with it? two 3x3x3 volumes split into three slices apiece. the left stack containing the example I was trying to give, the right stack a different example (ignore the thing at the top right, for now) |
| 07:30 |
Xiong |
Well it helps to add words. |
| 07:31 |
VanessaE |
the four red dots are at X, X+1, Y+1, and X+1, Y+1 |
| 07:31 |
Xiong |
What's socially wring with your drawing is, I posted mine first. Yes that matters. |
| 07:31 |
Xiong |
Dibs. |
| 07:32 |
VanessaE |
which I guess would be 000, 100, 010, and 110? |
| 07:32 |
VanessaE |
(or I dunno what, your coords don't make sense to me) |
| 07:33 |
Xiong |
Okay... why not? Really, I don't think I'm perfect. |
| 07:33 |
Xiong |
They're just like mt... except I likely reflected them. |
| 07:33 |
VanessaE |
because in a minetest world, the center of a volume is 0, thus negative and positive coords. |
| 07:34 |
Xiong |
Well if the red blick is at 000 then the rest are all east, up, or north of it. |
| 07:36 |
Xiong |
I can redo the model using negative numbers but dunno why. We're unlikely to run out of positive integers. Lemme do that for you though. |
| 07:36 |
VanessaE |
just nevermind. |
| 07:36 |
|
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| 07:36 |
VanessaE |
I'll add your coords to my drawing. |
| 07:39 |
Xiong |
Ha. I did screw up. |
| 07:40 |
Xiong |
No. I thought I was wrong but I was mistaken. |
| 07:41 |
VanessaE |
https://i.imgur.com/fGCVqKd.png |
| 07:41 |
VanessaE |
if I got your coord system right. |
| 07:43 |
VanessaE |
(forgot to add: the thing at the top right with the cuby green blobs, the base 3x3 layer under them is Y=0 in the same coord profile) |
| 07:43 |
VanessaE |
(forgot to add: the thing at the top right with the cuby green blobs, the base 3x3 layer *incompletely-drawn* under them is Y=0 in the same coord profile) |
| 07:45 |
VanessaE |
in this drawing, again assuming I have the same coordinates as you, if you put a technic cable in those four node spaces marked in red, it'll form a loop, right? |
| 07:47 |
Xiong |
Hadda pee. /me looks |
| 07:48 |
Xiong |
I just don't see the need to explode the model. But okay. Let me read scrollback. |
| 07:50 |
Xiong |
So I see you depict two situations. The green situation you drew twice. Fine. |
| 07:50 |
VanessaE |
ignore the green situation for the moment |
| 07:50 |
Xiong |
I agree the red situation forms a loop. |
| 07:50 |
VanessaE |
ok. |
| 07:50 |
VanessaE |
NOW pay attention to the green |
| 07:51 |
Xiong |
The two green nodes are not adjacent in mt terms. |
| 07:51 |
VanessaE |
if you put a technic cable, tube, or any other "connected nodeboxes" node in the two spaces, you'll get something that resembles the green cuby blobby bit at the top right, right? |
| 07:52 |
Xiong |
Dunno. I'm thinking in abstract terms |
| 07:52 |
Xiong |
The nodes are nonadjacent, full stop. |
| 07:53 |
Xiong |
Each considers itself alone in the world. |
| 07:53 |
VanessaE |
well in-world, that's more or less what you'd get. this is where the problem lies, the engine not only doesn't consider those two spaces as adjacent, it has no way to force them to be treated as such - no draw type or mode exists that will visibly connect the two nodes together. |
| 07:53 |
Xiong |
The red blobs associate. |
| 07:53 |
Xiong |
Well good that. We want no shorts. |
| 07:54 |
VanessaE |
except: |
| 07:54 |
VanessaE |
in mesecons, we *want* those two nodes to connect. |
| 07:54 |
Xiong |
If I wanted them connected, I'd add a third blob. |
| 07:54 |
VanessaE |
no |
| 07:54 |
|
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| 07:54 |
Xiong |
Whatta you mean "we", white man? |
| 07:55 |
VanessaE |
that ain't how mesecons has to work. remember, it's intended to mimic how redstone wires are positioned. |
| 07:55 |
Xiong |
Perhaps. I have no idea how anything works in mc. |
| 07:56 |
VanessaE |
in the old days, it used the raillike engine drawtype, which *does* treat those two green-marked nodes as adjacent, but at a cost: wires went up and down at angles, and tended to rotated wrong, and just plain looked horrible |
| 07:56 |
VanessaE |
(that drawtype works fine for rails, not so much for wires :P ) |
| 07:56 |
Xiong |
I consider mc offal. No offense to any good person inadvertently swept uo in the conspiracy. But this is minetest. |
| 07:57 |
VanessaE |
well be that as it may, |
| 07:57 |
Xiong |
No angles in mt. Everything orthogonal. |
| 07:57 |
VanessaE |
everything except raillike, yeahj. |
| 07:57 |
VanessaE |
-j |
| 07:57 |
VanessaE |
so anyway, |
| 07:58 |
Xiong |
I don't see why you want nonadjacent nodes to connect. |
| 07:58 |
VanessaE |
because redstone does. |
| 07:58 |
Xiong |
And....? |
| 07:58 |
VanessaE |
no and. |
| 07:59 |
|
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| 07:59 |
VanessaE |
since mesecons has to "fake it" to make wires climb up the sides of a wall to meet a diagonally-adjacent, it has to define one node for each unique mesh/shape |
| 07:59 |
Xiong |
I spit on everything not minetest. |
| 08:00 |
Xiong |
Not interested. If all mt can do is open sounce clone mc.... why? Our game is better. |
| 08:00 |
VanessaE |
yeah yeah, you don't like MC. got it. but its redstone gave us a circuit layout model to follow. |
| 08:01 |
Xiong |
A bad model... which I think I'm trying to overturn |
| 08:01 |
VanessaE |
never going to happen. |
| 08:01 |
Xiong |
That's where I began an hour ago. I don't like mesecons. |
| 08:01 |
VanessaE |
Jeija will never agree to something that'll break how circuits are laid out. |
| 08:02 |
Xiong |
So... too bad. In FLOSS, nobody needs permissions. |
| 08:02 |
Xiong |
I didn't offer to join the mesecons team. |
| 08:02 |
VanessaE |
sure. but you'd be trying to develop yet another competing project. |
| 08:03 |
VanessaE |
I've lost count of how many there have been :) |
| 08:03 |
Xiong |
I think the system is bad... I don't like it. |
| 08:03 |
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| 08:04 |
Xiong |
Perhaps I won't do it. But all this talk about... what? Preserving compatibility? |
| 08:04 |
VanessaE |
yep |
| 08:04 |
Xiong |
*shrug* |
| 08:04 |
Xiong |
Either a new thing has merit and thrives or lacks it and dies. |
| 08:04 |
VanessaE |
but, all of that aside. |
| 08:05 |
VanessaE |
you started out wanting to route more than one wire through a node. |
| 08:05 |
Xiong |
No not teally. |
| 08:05 |
VanessaE |
[12-18 01:03] <Xiong> In fact... in my hypothetical redo... that would be sth to fix. Place a second wire in the same 1 meter box, wow. Maybe even three. |
| 08:05 |
VanessaE |
no? |
| 08:06 |
Xiong |
I think I started out furious that mesecons connected funny. One wire per node would be par. |
| 08:06 |
VanessaE |
so what ARE you hoping to accomplish then? |
| 08:06 |
Xiong |
Three is gravy. |
| 08:07 |
Xiong |
But I abhor the zillion bits of wire stuff. And I cannot figure how to build a simple circuit without going funky or flattening it out. |
| 08:08 |
Xiong |
So I want one node that will connect any of its faces to any other... configurably. |
| 08:09 |
VanessaE |
that would require an engine change. |
| 08:09 |
VanessaE |
if you want more than one wire in a node, that is. |
| 08:09 |
Xiong |
Back to that? |
| 08:09 |
Xiong |
I think obviously not. Chests carry much more metadata. |
| 08:10 |
VanessaE |
minetest doesn't work that way. |
| 08:10 |
Xiong |
??? |
| 08:11 |
Xiong |
Where dors it all fail? Diagonal connections? Do not want. |
| 08:11 |
VanessaE |
just adding meta to a node, no matter its purpose or how you've specified it, will do nothing unless you alter the engine itself to be able to use that meta to alter the node's appearance. |
| 08:11 |
Xiong |
Each wire has exactly six neighbors... all day. |
| 08:12 |
VanessaE |
so for your simple 6-directional wire, you need nothing special. not even meta. just connected nodeboxes. |
| 08:12 |
Xiong |
Argh. An hour ago I said I didn't care much how it looked. Technic cable look is great. |
| 08:12 |
VanessaE |
you're missing the point |
| 08:13 |
Xiong |
Right. Nothing special. Easy. |
| 08:14 |
Xiong |
Your concerns may not be my concerns... nor the reverse. No offense. But just because I want it, I don't expect anyone else to agree. |
| 08:14 |
VanessaE |
look, you said you wanted two wires to occupy a node. |
| 08:14 |
Xiong |
The rendering is irrelevant to me. |
| 08:15 |
Xiong |
Three wires is good. And it will, in your eye, look shite. I'll be delighted. |
| 08:17 |
VanessaE |
the engine has no way to even *represent* such a thing, that's the problem. ok, so you use some meta to tell one wire from another, but at some point you have to *draw* the damn things so that you can place and dig them. whether they're thin wires, thick cables, zig-zags, pieces of leaves.. *something* has to be drawn |
| 08:17 |
Xiong |
Do you realize I can pass three streams of product through one of your sorter pipes? They'll come in here, go out there. They won't collide. Nothing will go the wrong way. |
| 08:17 |
VanessaE |
tubes don't use nodes for the items. |
| 08:18 |
Xiong |
So? Does mesecons use nodes for signals? |
| 08:18 |
VanessaE |
yes. |
| 08:18 |
Xiong |
No... nodes for wires. |
| 08:18 |
VanessaE |
and for signals. |
| 08:19 |
VanessaE |
wires have a visual "on" state, and that's how mesecons routes a signal, if I remember correctly. |
| 08:19 |
Xiong |
Well that sucks. |
| 08:19 |
* est31 |
logs back onto IRC |
| 08:19 |
VanessaE |
i.e. the logical signal is directly tied to the visual |
| 08:19 |
est31 |
you guys are still talking :) |
| 08:20 |
VanessaE |
technic doesn't do that with its cables because it doesn't even track the cables at all during power updates -- it's all done strictly by logic (and finding stuff in-world, but not the cables) |
| 08:20 |
VanessaE |
tubes, I forget. I think the mod tracks when an item needs to turn a corner, but otherwise lets the client move the item entity. |
| 08:20 |
Xiong |
But obviously each node can communicate with its neighbors more sensibly than that. Even a machine can look at a cable and see if it's powered. |
| 08:21 |
VanessaE |
in technic, individual machines don't check cables. rather, the switching station does all the work to determine if a machine should be powered or not. |
| 08:22 |
VanessaE |
(well, batteries and supply converters make their own checks, but that's kinda unrelated) |
| 08:23 |
Xiong |
You may think my ideas silly because they're different. I might have to work to overcome features baked into the engine. But... if I didn't think as I do, I'd never have done anything I've done. And I'd still have my first job. |
| 08:23 |
VanessaE |
so ANYway.. your two- or three-conductor node. you can do all the fancy logic you want, using meta or something else to track which wire in the node has which signal, but at some point you have to not only draw them on-screen, you have to be able to place or remove any one of those conductors, right? |
| 08:24 |
Xiong |
Mt engine is obviously Turing-complete. So it can do anything deterministic. |
| 08:24 |
VanessaE |
Lua is, sure. the engine is not. |
| 08:24 |
Xiong |
Why is it so important that I not even think about trying to do this? |
| 08:26 |
VanessaE |
why? because you're disregarding the visuals of it. how is a user supposed to tell one conductor from another? |
| 08:26 |
Xiong |
No, the engine is t-c. Anything can be done with it. Extract square roots, play chess. May slow server, may melt it. But until the hardware fails, you're good. |
| 08:27 |
Xiong |
Oh, the user can tell this from that because this is here and that's there. Anything else is gravy. |
| 08:28 |
VanessaE |
and how do you plan to represent it? |
| 08:29 |
Xiong |
I once built a small computer out of relays, a discarded traffic light controller, and about 30 feet of wire... all one color. I had no trouble identifying anything in that rat nest. Boss hated it. |
| 08:29 |
VanessaE |
I don't mean wire colors. |
| 08:30 |
Xiong |
No. What? There's nothing to decide except a few texture.png |
| 08:30 |
VanessaE |
I mean what do you plan to draw them as? big fat conductors like technic? thin like mesecons (nevermind the way they join)? in the center of the node, or on the bottom? can they turn corners, jump over each other, etc? |
| 08:31 |
Xiong |
Um... one solder blob. Two, a wire. Three, a blob again. |
| 08:32 |
Xiong |
Center of node. I'm impartial. |
| 08:33 |
VanessaE |
and I am correct in assuming you want to only display 1, 2, or 3 wires, as needed? Not have three visible all the time? |
| 08:33 |
Xiong |
You might want colored wires weaving in and out. That's typical of your work, VE, and believe me I appreciate it. But wires are not decorations. |
| 08:34 |
VanessaE |
never. mind. about. colors.\ |
| 08:34 |
VanessaE |
let's just say three black wires running through the node. all 3 always visible, or just whichever ones are neede? |
| 08:34 |
VanessaE |
needed* |
| 08:35 |
Xiong |
No. For me, at worst, a silvery blob at node center... about 1/4 m diameter... all the time for every. |
| 08:36 |
Xiong |
No change, no nothing. You either know how it's wired or you touch each one and find out. |
| 08:37 |
VanessaE |
it sounds like you're more inclined to do something akin to digilines (where any one "wire" is more like a 3-wire I²C bus) |
| 08:37 |
Xiong |
Colors are a nice idea but that's a nonlocal concept. |
| 08:38 |
Xiong |
Hey, that's another nice idea. All wires connect everywhere. |
| 08:38 |
VanessaE |
... |
| 08:39 |
VanessaE |
I'm just trying to save you some work. the concept you have in mind will fail miserably. |
| 08:39 |
Xiong |
But you forget I'm an old hardware dog. I'll be happy to be able to wire two gates to each other in under half an hour. |
| 08:39 |
Xiong |
Fail by your standards, certainly. |
| 08:40 |
Xiong |
Sorry VE. You do excellent work but others... even outsiders... have ideas that are valid to them. Really. |
| 08:41 |
VanessaE |
no one is going to want to use a mod that requires the user to manually examine each node in a circuit to determine its layout. |
| 08:42 |
Xiong |
I can't come to #mt and only repeat what I've heard... or prescreen for orthodoxy. I'm a born radical. Can't help it. Been trying all my life. |
| 08:42 |
VanessaE |
I get the "radical" individualism, I really do. |
| 08:43 |
Xiong |
I would love it. I am not nobody. I take that seriously. |
| 08:43 |
VanessaE |
but if you're going to invest time to make a mod, you have to focus on usability. |
| 08:44 |
VanessaE |
what you propose, you'll find unusable after a while as well. |
| 08:44 |
Xiong |
I'm playing singleplayer. Why? Nobody can see my great stuff. When I'm dead, it vanishes. |
| 08:44 |
Xiong |
Why do I bother? |
| 08:44 |
VanessaE |
because its fun, naturally. |
| 08:45 |
VanessaE |
but is it fun to use a mod you wrote, that turns out to be a usability nightmare? :) |
| 08:45 |
Xiong |
I find mesecons unusable now. Will you rest tonight knowing an unconverted heretic is loose? |
| 08:45 |
VanessaE |
not talking about mesecons. |
| 08:46 |
VanessaE |
I'm talking strictly your "make it all a solder blob" model |
| 08:46 |
Xiong |
Well I was. I want sth better. |
| 08:47 |
Xiong |
Yes well. That all-blob wouldn't be best. But it would be an improvement over mesecons... depending on how it looked. |
| 08:48 |
Xiong |
You and I have vastly different standards. That's okay. I wouldn't dream of imposing mine. I like what you do now. |
| 08:49 |
Xiong |
What do you see when you see a car? The color? The make or model? I see sth else. |
| 08:50 |
VanessaE |
I see a vehicle designed to get me from A to B in relative comfort, with a user interface that's at least somewhat standardize (as in steering, turn signals, gas/brake, PRNDL, fuel door on the left, etc) |
| 08:50 |
Xiong |
My mind has an abstract schematic of the car. Drive train, physics governing, legal history. This stack of info is what I see. Color is way down the list. |
| 08:51 |
VanessaE |
(first thing I usually notice is its cosmetic condition, which can be an indicator of how well-taken-care-of the rest of the car is, e.g. it's more likely to BE a beater if it looks like one) |
| 08:51 |
Xiong |
My eyes... I don't see the same world you do. In fact I know very few who see or think as I do. |
| 08:52 |
VanessaE |
as far as cars go, I generally don't care about color too much |
| 08:52 |
VanessaE |
(though I'd choose a light color over dark, for heat reasons) |
| 08:52 |
Xiong |
I need to make a particular effort to reassemble the body back onto the car or I can barely see it. |
| 08:53 |
VanessaE |
don't you suppose maybe, just maybe, you are looking at things the wrong way then? :P |
| 08:54 |
Xiong |
Often thought. Now I know the question is moot. I yam what I yam. |
| 08:55 |
Xiong |
I have Xray vision... and am otherwise blind. Oh well. |
| 08:55 |
Xiong |
Life stinks. |
| 08:57 |
VanessaE |
... |
| 08:57 |
Xiong |
You're a thoughtful person; you see below the surface. You chew your way through layers of superficiality. Good on you. Most look at the surface only. Hence bling. |
| 08:58 |
VanessaE |
that's why I am so insistent that you not conflate the engine's abilities with those of the modding language :) |
| 08:58 |
Xiong |
For me, the world is sort of a goo obscuring the abstract reality. |
| 08:59 |
Xiong |
Not conflation. I challenge you to provide a counterexample. |
| 09:00 |
VanessaE |
Lua can calculate a square root. there's no API call into the engine to do that. |
| 09:00 |
Xiong |
A minetest world fits the classic description of T machine. |
| 09:01 |
Xiong |
I don't need a library call. I can spawn shrubs until the calculation is complete. |
| 09:01 |
VanessaE |
doesn't work like that. |
| 09:01 |
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| 09:01 |
Xiong |
Really. It's a cellular automaton. |
| 09:03 |
VanessaE |
um.. |
| 09:03 |
VanessaE |
this ain't Game of Life :P |
| 09:03 |
Xiong |
Cellular automatons operate with one rule for all cells, each of which changes state according to its immediate neighborhood.... and fixed rules. Cellular automata are Turing-complete... some are. |
| 09:04 |
Xiong |
I can write a Life mod. |
| 09:04 |
Xiong |
In fact, pretty sure by now, someone has. |
| 09:04 |
VanessaE |
yes you could, but Lua would be doing all of the work aside from the set_node() operations. |
| 09:04 |
Xiong |
Oh well. |
| 09:04 |
Xiong |
So? |
| 09:05 |
VanessaE |
when Lua is doing something, the engine isn't |
| 09:05 |
Xiong |
And? |
| 09:05 |
VanessaE |
and? they're two separate things. |
| 09:05 |
Xiong |
By itself the engine draws me in midair in an empty world. |
| 09:06 |
VanessaE |
something like that. |
| 09:06 |
Xiong |
So...? |
| 09:07 |
VanessaE |
meh. |
| 09:08 |
Xiong |
So while you are undoubtedly right that mt can't extract a square root or play Life... I shall happily load mods and do what I will. Where's the issue? |
| 09:09 |
Xiong |
https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?t=12421 |
| 09:09 |
Xiong |
Mentions Life specifically. |
| 09:11 |
VanessaE |
I am referring to your comment much earlier, "Right. The engine. But in world I don't see an engine" |
| 09:12 |
Xiong |
Correct. I live in the world. Most people live in the real world and have no idea how physics or what's a prime number. |
| 09:13 |
Xiong |
They are able, though, to boil an egg and dispense the last porkchop. |
| 09:14 |
Xiong |
This is why you and I had such communication difficulty around the MV mill. You said the mid did this, I said the mill did that. We were both right. |
| 09:14 |
Xiong |
... the mod.... |
| 09:15 |
VanessaE |
when you start up minetest, about half of what you see it just engine. |
| 09:15 |
VanessaE |
(i.e. no mod/game code is running at first) |
| 09:16 |
Xiong |
No doubt. Startup stinks. |
| 09:16 |
Xiong |
The phone makes it much worse. Laggy servers stink too. |
| 09:17 |
VanessaE |
indeed. |
| 09:17 |
Xiong |
Then there's the heisenbug I cried over earlier. |
| 09:18 |
Xiong |
Then there's the weirdness of a world that doesn't exist until it's explored. Ah well. |
| 09:18 |
VanessaE |
that doesn't seem to weird to me |
| 09:18 |
VanessaE |
too* |
| 09:19 |
Xiong |
I believe the entire universe exists, rightnow. And will be largely unchanged when I die. |
| 09:21 |
VanessaE |
pretty much, yes. |
| 09:21 |
Xiong |
We cannot see them but in this vast spacetime there are undoubtedly great star empires, furious battles, exploding stars, dying kings. They are just as real for all that I know nothing if them. |
| 09:21 |
VanessaE |
it'll expand by a few tenths of a percent, but otherwise no meaningful change |
| 09:23 |
Xiong |
When we finish pecking our way from this eggshell we will go forth and see who is nearby. They will not care for our preconceptions. They will... have been already. So yeh, mt is weird. It's a clever weirdness. |
| 09:25 |
Xiong |
When a tree falls it makes a sound. Observer not needed. (I handwave at quantum uncertainty.) |
| 09:25 |
Xiong |
When I'm not staring at the grinder it stops working! |
| 09:27 |
Xiong |
Back when, I built a reactor underground and quarried. I spent much effort keeping my mining area within the mapblocks loaded by my character. |
| 09:29 |
Xiong |
If I'd studied up harder, I probably wouldn't have tried. As it was, one of the wheels spent much time looking over my shoulder. |
| 09:31 |
Xiong |
I'm blathering again. I'm coming to when the oast is more real than the present. Where were you going with the engine? The engine runs mods, the mods do fun stuff. Then? |
| 09:31 |
VanessaE |
nothing, forgot where I was going with it. |
| 09:31 |
Xiong |
Me too. |
| 09:32 |
Xiong |
Better for me to go dig some coal... perhaps meseblocks. |
| 09:33 |
VanessaE |
have fun with your solder blobs :P |
| 09:33 |
Xiong |
More power! |
| 09:33 |
Xiong |
Nah. Unlikely to invest. I have enough undone. |
| 09:33 |
Xiong |
See you! |
| 09:33 |
VanessaE |
cya |
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| 10:54 |
twoelk |
wow, just learnt a lot about energy and power transmission concepts in minetest by reading the recent logs :-D |
| 10:55 |
twoelk |
somebody really should wikify some of that revealing info |
| 10:56 |
* twoelk |
hides in fear of someone saying - you want it, then do it yourself - |
| 10:57 |
riff-IRC |
I have fake powerlines |
| 11:01 |
twoelk |
fake as in simply deco? or as in faking visually but getting the desired funktion? |
| 11:01 |
riff-IRC |
Fake as in deco |
| 11:02 |
riff-IRC |
When you mean transmission, you mean transmission over wires? |
| 11:03 |
twoelk |
as I don't like them much in blocking my view in real life, I never saw the need to add them to any of my mt buildings :-P |
| 11:04 |
twoelk |
only place I might accept them would be in a steampunky setup I guess - but then more steam and as little electrikery as possible |
| 11:05 |
* twoelk |
wonders when Catweazel might be redone |
| 11:06 |
riff-IRC |
so is there any defined voltage present on the lines? |
| 11:08 |
twoelk |
no voltage in mt only EU as in EnergyUnits or such |
| 11:08 |
riff-IRC |
o |
| 11:09 |
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| 11:10 |
twoelk |
http://irc.minetest.net/minetest/2018-12-18#i_5462125 |
| 11:10 |
twoelk |
see discussion earlier today |
| 11:31 |
MinetestBot |
[git] pgimeno users.noreply.notabug.org -> minetest/minetest: Fix the part of the float test that requires IEC559/IEEE754 compliance 8e4095f https://git.io/fppOY (2018-12-18T11:27:23Z) |
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| 11:40 |
Xiong |
WWRAD? https://imgur.com/gallery/n2oDUHp |
| 11:42 |
Xiong |
twoelk You want it, you do it. Feel free to ask for help. |
| 11:48 |
Xiong |
riff-IRC I've never seen definitions of mt LV, MV, HV. Given what's connected, I kinda think LV is 220-240 V. Then MV at 660... should be three-phase. Dunno about HV. Metro catenaries run a few kV but mostly, past a point, what you save in copper you pay for in ceramic. |
| 11:48 |
Xiong |
IRL, not much HV in distribution. |
| 11:51 |
Xiong |
Erm... not to wax pedantic... if your fake power lines are "telephone poles" that's distribution. Transmission is the big steel god monster tower. |
| 11:53 |
Xiong |
Back to mt. Dealing in watts... called EUs... sidesteps a lot of complexity. There's no concept of amperage so no need to deal with voltage. The three kinds of juice might as well be AC, DC, and raspberry. |
| 11:55 |
Xiong |
Note the converter. Watts in, watts out. I like the 10% loss... would kill for anything that efficient IRL. But this makes planning straightforward. |
| 11:58 |
Xiong |
And now back to your fake wires. I say, jazz 'em up. Package some decent streetlights with them. People must run your ugly wire to run your elegant lights. Worked for Tom... for a while. |
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| 15:11 |
exio4 |
i love electricity |
| 15:11 |
exio4 |
it's a concept which is both simple and mind-blowing and to think how dependent we are on electricity is just even crazier |
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| 17:23 |
Xiong |
Simple? My professional life was built around electronics and I still don't understand it. I don't yet have in my head a mental model of a common silicon BJT... not one that satisfies me, fully transparent and intuitive |
| 17:24 |
Ingar |
QM is neither transparant, nor intuitive :D |
| 17:25 |
Xiong |
Put me and three other hardware dogs in the room, whisper one word and run away. We will argue about that word for an hour and only agree at long last that you are wrong. That word is "ground" |
| 17:26 |
Ingar |
I"m the IT guy, I'll sit there and get paid whil you define ground |
| 17:26 |
Ingar |
tell me whjen I can implement it :D |
| 17:26 |
Xiong |
Yes well because microelectronics are engineered devices there's no uncertainty left. |
| 17:29 |
Xiong |
Well there's no such thing as ground. There's earth, chassis, neutral, shield, zero volt, safety ground (one word), off. Any of which may or may not meet at some point. |
| 17:31 |
Xiong |
I love electricity too. I also hate it. It's the battleaxe wife that keeps me up all night moving the living room furniture. |
| 17:31 |
Ingar |
I do find it interesting, I hate Kirchhoff though |
| 17:32 |
Xiong |
Why? The math is what bails you out. |
| 17:33 |
Ingar |
not sure, because the math actually isnt that hard |
| 17:34 |
Xiong |
When all else fails, break out the notebook and analyze the sucker. Assume nothing, measure everything, calibrate your instruments, write it all down. It's physical; the issue will fall to method.... eventually. |
| 17:36 |
Xiong |
Trouble is, never enough time on the job. Clock ticking, boss shouting, bank growling. |
| 17:39 |
Xiong |
One time boss set me and another young guy on a small machine that didn't ship.... a small dial index machine, under $200K. Leak tester for natural gas shutoff valves. We crawled all over the thing with a box of valves trying to get it to sort them the same way twice. |
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| 17:41 |
Xiong |
I mean, if the part leaks now it should leak ten minutes later. If not, not. Basically two brass castings and a bolt. |
| 17:44 |
Xiong |
I had a machinist turn out a steel dummy, same size as the part but a solid blank... guarantee no leak. Two days later, we agreed it was the damn seals. The silicone rubber wasn't conforming consistently to the rough castings. We were certain. So we changed to softer seals and tada. |
| 17:48 |
Xiong |
Boss chewed us out with an evil grin for screwing around for two days, eliminating every possible cause, before trying different seals. Time is money and the customer doesn't pay until we ship. We were both smart, educated, and hardworking... but inexperienced... which was boss's point. |
| 17:49 |
Xiong |
But yes if you can, bust out the method and pulverize the issue. It can't elude you forever. |
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MinetestBot |
[git] SmallJoker -> minetest/minetest: ieee_float: Silence compiler warning 80eb762 https://git.io/fpheP (2018-12-18T18:50:07Z) |
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MinetestBot |
[git] kkabrams -> minetest/minetest: Add command line option to load password from file (#7832) b7eb81f https://git.io/fphfS (2018-12-18T19:15:14Z) |
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Xiong |
Technic autosort doesn't seem to behave as expected. The button is ON but new stacks tubed in do not sort with previous contents. Check by pushing manual Sort button. Am I doing sth wrong? Are my expectations off target? |
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