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IRC log for #minetest, 2018-09-24

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Time Nick Message
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13:39 meseking hello
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14:48 hecks if I calc lighting in on_generate, do I have immediate access to the lighting data?
14:50 hecks say I generate my terrain, calc the lighting and then immediately thin out generated plants based on sunlight received
14:50 hecks to avoid slow abm/lbm
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16:09 hecks someone spoonfeed me, how do I use a "biomemap" object?
16:09 hecks it doesn't seem to 'fit' the chunk that voxelmanip represents
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16:41 Orbstheorem Hello ^^/, I was wondering if there is a minetest-based game comparable to age of engineering.
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16:46 hecks I don't even know what that is
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16:47 paramat "if I calc lighting in on_generate, do I have immediate access to the lighting data?" after 'write to map' yes
16:47 hecks that'll do
16:49 hecks maybe you can help me with this too; how can I do anything useful with a biomemap array?
16:49 paramat if you 'get light data' in bulkas a 2nd vm maybe calc_lighting alters that too, not sure
16:49 paramat yeah ..
16:50 hecks say I want to turn water into sand in desert biomes; I call get_mapgen_object( "biomemap" )
16:50 hecks and it gives me an array of... 6400 elements?
16:50 hecks while the voxelmanip's buffer is 1404928 elements
16:50 Orbstheorem hecks: It's a technical modpack: https://minecraft.curseforge.com/projects/age-of-engineering
16:50 paramat the 'mapgen object voxelmanip' is the mapchunk plus a mapblock thick shell, so is 80 +16 + 16 in size. however the heat/humidity/heightmaps are only 80x80
16:51 hecks so it's a 2D map?
16:51 paramat those 3 maps are 2D
16:52 paramat heat and humidity is 2D noise
16:53 hecks this... sucks, because biomes are not necessarily 2D
16:53 paramat the engine's own mapgen vm is also 'mapchunk plus mapblock shell' because it also processes an overlap volume, to allow trees to extend 16 nodes up beyond the mapchunk (essential)
16:53 paramat biome y variation is done using y limits
16:54 hecks I know that, but biomes overlapping in Y means that whatever data biomemap gives me will be bogus
16:54 paramat so flat biome borders in y
16:54 paramat ah
16:56 paramat the biomemap for a mapchunk corresponds to the topmost solid surface in the mapchunk, ie the surface given by the heightmap
16:56 hecks Orbstheorem: I think all we have is technic, and while complex, it's probably not what you're looking for
16:56 paramat so yes it lacks information
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16:56 hecks well if it's just within the mapblock, it may work for something as simple as erasing water
16:57 paramat however in 5.0.0 we do now have 'get biome data at (3D) point' which is accurate to how things generate
16:57 hecks we do?
16:57 hecks is it in the api yet?
16:58 paramat https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/766fb7b46edab47f96b8b940e390daf5319261b7/doc/lua_api.txt#L3937
16:58 paramat yeah i coded it
16:59 hecks hm... would this be much slower than using biomemap?
16:59 hecks if it's just reading noise, then maybe it's acceptable
17:00 paramat the 'biomemap' is just a simplified map used for mapgen, since most decorations are only placed on the topmost solid surface in a mapchunk
17:00 paramat a little slower yes as the biomemap is precalculated
17:00 hecks ...unless you use the all surfaces flag or however it's called
17:00 paramat indeed
17:02 hecks I'll work something out
17:02 hecks one last thing is bothering me; sqrt 6400 is 80, but voxelmanip gives me a 112^3 volume (I think)
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17:03 paramat yeah, i explained that above
17:03 hecks so uh, the difference is a padding of one mapblock, correct?
17:03 paramat yes
17:03 hecks and if I correct for that, the coordinates will line up
17:03 paramat mapchunk is 5x5x5, full vm is 7x7x7 mapblocks
17:03 hecks okay, thanks for all
17:04 hecks ...unless you fiddle with chunksize in the config
17:04 hecks I wonder what that does other than changing the dungeon density
17:05 paramat indeed, whatever chunksize, 1 mapblock padding is added
17:05 paramat see https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/4a2a11262b0821d0bcddd25161f5eb8b172b23fd/minetest.conf.example#L2909
17:06 paramat highly recommended to leave it at 5
17:06 hecks I've read the desc, but I don't understand the consequences of using smaller values
17:06 hecks I've used 3 before, the map didn't look much different but there were more dungeons
17:06 paramat more caves too
17:07 hecks and I suppose that results in more frequent on_generated calls
17:08 paramat yes
17:08 paramat btw i coded my own version of your terrain smoothing mod. you can use the 'heightmap' to immediately find the surface nodes to process them, instead of looping through every node
17:08 hecks which is much faster, I presume
17:09 hecks I'll work that in, since I gotta compute 2D coords either way
17:10 hecks while we're on the topic of cryptic config values, what does "sidelen" in a decoration do?
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17:20 paramat oh yeah ..
17:20 hecks wait, if I use the heightmap to find ground nodes to smooth, smoothing will no longer work with caves, overhangs and ceilings
17:22 paramat when decorations are placed with density altered by noise, 'sidelen' is the resolution of the density variation. it must divide into a mapchunk, so 80, 16, 8, 4 are the best values
17:23 hecks bigger is faster?
17:23 paramat ah, i didn't realise smoothing altered anything other than surface nodes. it also won't smooth under an overhang
17:24 paramat yeah bigger sidelen means less noise calculations, but less resolution
17:24 hecks yeah, I'll have to stick with my old smoother; I gotta iterate over the whole chunk for other things anyway
17:24 hecks but the heightmap trick could be useful in the "plants die with no light, fungi die with light" round
17:25 hecks as that will require its own loop
17:25 hecks also, I understand that it's safe to skip iterating over the chunk padding area?
17:26 paramat safe yes as that's an overlap
17:30 timdorohin paramat: what you think, if i add support for loading mapgens as binary plugins (.dll/.so like plugins in browser) will it be accepted to mainline?
17:31 rubenwardy I'd support such a thing
17:31 rubenwardy depending on the complexity
17:34 hecks it's the server's problem, so why not
17:34 hecks I wouldn't mind having server side native code in general
17:34 paramat plugin c++ mapgens?
17:34 timdorohin Yea
17:35 Krock just Compile It Yourself because binary packages from a random person does not look very trustworthy
17:35 Krock native code sounds good - especially in terms of speed
17:38 timdorohin Krock: i can compile my own version with my own mapgen code, but there are many people in community that didn't know how to do it.
17:42 paramat the concept sounds good but it depends on practicalities and security
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17:42 paramat also the amount of disruption and work needed at a time of lowest dev activity
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18:39 rocky1138 Have you seen Amidst for Minetest? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBs6YrYXlgU
18:54 sfan5 !title
18:54 MinetestBot sfan5: Amidst for Minetest - YouTube
19:03 hecks so let us discuss parallel universes and why minetest doesn't need them
19:04 hecks though the final word will be, as always, "code it yerself wiseguy"
19:04 Hijiri I don't think I have enough time, but I have thought about writing it
19:05 Hijiri It could be done incrementally in a reasonable way so that it doesn't require a mega-PR that conflicts with everything else
19:05 hecks try making it work with *one* dimension in lua alone, first
19:05 hecks or, code the rest of the damn game
19:05 Hijiri "Minetest is an engine, not a game"
19:06 Hijiri also it's easy to make it work with one dimension, just don't do anything
19:06 hecks yeah, so... if you want to improve the engine, I suppose you have a game in mind that requires it
19:07 Hijiri a mystcraft clone would be such a mod, not sure if I actually want to do that though
19:07 Hijiri Maybe that's also why I'm not actually working on the feature
19:08 Hijiri also is there a list somewhere of the most critical Minetest features to be implemented
19:08 Hijiri there is the 5.0.0 project, but it only lists the CSM feature (and some other non-feature improvements)
19:09 Hijiri Oh, there's the content brower
19:09 Hijiri browser
19:09 Shara Personally find it a little depressing when someone wants soemthign just so they can clone something else better.
19:09 Shara Try and be original instead :P
19:09 Shara something*
19:10 hecks CSM is pretty critical, it would fix a lot of nasty issues with custom games
19:10 hecks there is the content browser, yes
19:10 Hijiri surely if there's one concept that benefits from infinite dimensions, there is more than one
19:10 Hijiri the space of mods can't be that small
19:10 hecks and some people somewhere are thinking of making the fabled VAOs, if they feel like it
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19:10 Hijiri VAEs?
19:10 hecks in general, minetest's feature schedule highly depends on people willing, able and feeling like doing said features
19:11 hecks yeah, VAO/VAEs, entities made out of nodes
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19:11 Hijiri ah, ok
19:11 hecks honestly, I could do VAOs in lua if colliders were not AABBs, and if attachments weren't so flimsy
19:13 Hijiri I think it would be difficult to get node callbacks and things to work properly though
19:13 MinetestBot [git] SmallJoker -> minetest/minetest_game: map: Use wood group crafting recipe f42deb4 https://git.io/fAbAO (2018-09-24T19:13:01Z)
19:13 hecks definitely, they wouldn't be "nodes" in that sense
19:14 hecks but if you just want to build airships, it would be good enough
19:14 * hecks fondly remembers building a 3-mapblock-long frameship and losing it due to bugs
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19:17 hecks I think there are still more pressing concerns regarding minetest
19:17 hecks like "where's the friggin' gameplay, what's the point"
19:17 hecks I do believe not even minecraft got that solved
19:18 hecks but one can dream https://a.uguu.se/xXJC0FKWWbyI_jelly.png
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19:53 hecks I'm having on_generated called several times for the same minp, maxp range
19:55 sfan5 happens
19:56 hecks a lot, it appears
19:56 hecks should I just file the range into some kind of table and skip the chunk if already generated?
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20:00 hecks huh, doesn't do it anymore
20:00 hecks gremlins
20:01 paramat using multiple mapgen threads?
20:01 hecks I was
20:01 hecks I'll recheck
20:01 hecks also, get_biome_at is *slow*
20:02 hecks oh yes, threaded emerge causes that
20:03 paramat 'get biome data' is not meant for using in very high numbers, and it's as fast as it can be :)
20:04 hecks I'll use biomemap...
20:05 hecks I've got a bigger issue to grind my teeth on now, not knowing if minetest is calling my post-mapgen several times more than necessary
20:06 hecks thought this would work https://pastebin.com/jGmr2XZV
20:07 hecks but it just causes some chunks to not get generated ever
20:09 paramat should be no need if you're not using threaded emerge
20:09 hecks I'd much, much rather be using threaded emerge
20:09 hecks if you've seen my mapgen woes
20:10 hecks could it be that emerge threads use bogus coordinates to avoid collision?
20:11 paramat i can't see an issue for multiple mapchunk generation
20:11 hecks https://a.uguu.se/pFoZwbe5xSpn_blah.png
20:11 hecks this is what's happening, it's thinking that this chunk was already done, and skips it
20:12 hecks if using the code pastebinned above
20:12 hecks the only thing that could cause this if threaded emerge was fiddling with minp, maxp
20:12 hecks in which case, "oh no, I'm getting the same chunk generated 3 times" is a false alarm and I don't need to do this
20:16 paramat hmm
20:17 paramat does your smoothing code run for every mapchunk, because 'calc lighting' is needed for every mapchunk due to 'nolight' being used
20:18 paramat i guess it does
20:18 hecks yes, while using that code snippet above to check if it isn't running on_generated multiple times
20:19 hecks either way, one emerge thread seems faster than multiple, somehow
20:20 hecks doesn't even choke globalstep as much
20:23 hecks a setting of "0" also works fine, but I'm not sure if it's using 1 or some optimal number
20:24 hecks don't really trust the documentation on this one, and cpu usage seems inconclusive (hovering around 50%)
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21:51 hecks %s, the %s died of dehydration in the middle of a desert https://a.uguu.se/IdxAlVX0hVYA_sand.png
21:52 hecks and should probably thank paramat for its gruesome death
21:53 sfan5 the committee of family friendliness has something to say about your player model
21:54 timdorohin hecks: i want to unsee it
21:56 hecks the committee can go get eaten by a grue
22:01 hecks https://a.uguu.se/O3JyGNa5Fs4V_sw.gif I ain't got time for clothes y'know
22:03 timdorohin hecks: is this minetest or scarlet blade? :D
22:04 hecks well, the taskbar tells me it's minetest
22:05 timdorohin hecks: :D
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22:45 hecks sfan5: the committee may be informed that their complaints have been heard, and the offending art was adjusted https://a.uguu.se/gTmlGub3FjRS_scr.png
22:46 sfan5 very nice
22:46 hecks further complaints may be directed to the grue
22:48 hecks speaking of grues, is there a way to know if a node would be lit by sunlight if it were day, even when it isn't?
22:49 paramat yes
22:49 paramat 'get light at pos' i think
22:50 paramat has a parameter for time of day
22:50 hecks good
22:50 hecks this will also be useful to tell if rainfall would reach a certain node
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22:54 paramat https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/766fb7b46edab47f96b8b940e390daf5319261b7/doc/lua_api.txt#L3847
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22:54 paramat should read: '0 for midnight, 0.5 for midday'
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22:57 paramat yeah 15 means under open sky
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23:03 hecks oh right
23:04 hecks I've had an issue with the model's file size
23:05 hecks minetest caps it at some network packet size, uncompressed at that
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23:11 paramat hm i guess MT is not used to hidef models, maybe the limit can be raised with no problem
23:12 sfan5 or throw compression on it
23:13 sfan5 if that's easily doable
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23:20 hecks https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/7744
23:20 hecks it's not the model that kills this limit, it's animation
23:21 hecks and it will happen even with the blockiest model if it has enough animations
23:22 hecks 60 to 120 seconds of animations will exhaust the file size, depending on skeleton complexity
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