Time  Nick        Message
13:39 meseking    hello
14:48 hecks       if I calc lighting in on_generate, do I have immediate access to the lighting data?
14:50 hecks       say I generate my terrain, calc the lighting and then immediately thin out generated plants based on sunlight received
14:50 hecks       to avoid slow abm/lbm
16:09 hecks       someone spoonfeed me, how do I use a "biomemap" object?
16:09 hecks       it doesn't seem to 'fit' the chunk that voxelmanip represents
16:41 Orbstheorem Hello ^^/, I was wondering if there is a minetest-based game comparable to age of engineering.
16:46 hecks       I don't even know what that is
16:47 paramat     "if I calc lighting in on_generate, do I have immediate access to the lighting data?" after 'write to map' yes
16:47 hecks       that'll do
16:49 hecks       maybe you can help me with this too; how can I do anything useful with a biomemap array?
16:49 paramat     if you 'get light data' in bulkas a 2nd vm maybe calc_lighting alters that too, not sure
16:49 paramat     yeah ..
16:50 hecks       say I want to turn water into sand in desert biomes; I call get_mapgen_object( "biomemap" )
16:50 hecks       and it gives me an array of... 6400 elements?
16:50 hecks       while the voxelmanip's buffer is 1404928 elements
16:50 Orbstheorem hecks: It's a technical modpack: https://minecraft.curseforge.com/projects/age-of-engineering
16:50 paramat     the 'mapgen object voxelmanip' is the mapchunk plus a mapblock thick shell, so is 80 +16 + 16 in size. however the heat/humidity/heightmaps are only 80x80
16:51 hecks       so it's a 2D map?
16:51 paramat     those 3 maps are 2D
16:52 paramat     heat and humidity is 2D noise
16:53 hecks       this... sucks, because biomes are not necessarily 2D
16:53 paramat     the engine's own mapgen vm is also 'mapchunk plus mapblock shell' because it also processes an overlap volume, to allow trees to extend 16 nodes up beyond the mapchunk (essential)
16:53 paramat     biome y variation is done using y limits
16:54 hecks       I know that, but biomes overlapping in Y means that whatever data biomemap gives me will be bogus
16:54 paramat     so flat biome borders in y
16:54 paramat     ah
16:56 paramat     the biomemap for a mapchunk corresponds to the topmost solid surface in the mapchunk, ie the surface given by the heightmap
16:56 hecks       Orbstheorem: I think all we have is technic, and while complex, it's probably not what you're looking for
16:56 paramat     so yes it lacks information
16:56 hecks       well if it's just within the mapblock, it may work for something as simple as erasing water
16:57 paramat     however in 5.0.0 we do now have 'get biome data at (3D) point' which is accurate to how things generate
16:57 hecks       we do?
16:57 hecks       is it in the api yet?
16:58 paramat     https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/766fb7b46edab47f96b8b940e390daf5319261b7/doc/lua_api.txt#L3937
16:58 paramat     yeah i coded it
16:59 hecks       hm... would this be much slower than using biomemap?
16:59 hecks       if it's just reading noise, then maybe it's acceptable
17:00 paramat     the 'biomemap' is just a simplified map used for mapgen, since most decorations are only placed on the topmost solid surface in a mapchunk
17:00 paramat     a little slower yes as the biomemap is precalculated
17:00 hecks       ...unless you use the all surfaces flag or however it's called
17:00 paramat     indeed
17:02 hecks       I'll work something out
17:02 hecks       one last thing is bothering me; sqrt 6400 is 80, but voxelmanip gives me a 112^3 volume (I think)
17:03 paramat     yeah, i explained that above
17:03 hecks       so uh, the difference is a padding of one mapblock, correct?
17:03 paramat     yes
17:03 hecks       and if I correct for that, the coordinates will line up
17:03 paramat     mapchunk is 5x5x5, full vm is 7x7x7 mapblocks
17:03 hecks       okay, thanks for all
17:04 hecks       ...unless you fiddle with chunksize in the config
17:04 hecks       I wonder what that does other than changing the dungeon density
17:05 paramat     indeed, whatever chunksize, 1 mapblock padding is added
17:05 paramat     see https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/4a2a11262b0821d0bcddd25161f5eb8b172b23fd/minetest.conf.example#L2909
17:06 paramat     highly recommended to leave it at 5
17:06 hecks       I've read the desc, but I don't understand the consequences of using smaller values
17:06 hecks       I've used 3 before, the map didn't look much different but there were more dungeons
17:06 paramat     more caves too
17:07 hecks       and I suppose that results in more frequent on_generated calls
17:08 paramat     yes
17:08 paramat     btw i coded my own version of your terrain smoothing mod. you can use the 'heightmap' to immediately find the surface nodes to process them, instead of looping through every node
17:08 hecks       which is much faster, I presume
17:09 hecks       I'll work that in, since I gotta compute 2D coords either way
17:10 hecks       while we're on the topic of cryptic config values, what does "sidelen" in a decoration do?
17:20 paramat     oh yeah ..
17:20 hecks       wait, if I use the heightmap to find ground nodes to smooth, smoothing will no longer work with caves, overhangs and ceilings
17:22 paramat     when decorations are placed with density altered by noise, 'sidelen' is the resolution of the density variation. it must divide into a mapchunk, so 80, 16, 8, 4 are the best values
17:23 hecks       bigger is faster?
17:23 paramat     ah, i didn't realise smoothing altered anything other than surface nodes. it also won't smooth under an overhang
17:24 paramat     yeah bigger sidelen means less noise calculations, but less resolution
17:24 hecks       yeah, I'll have to stick with my old smoother; I gotta iterate over the whole chunk for other things anyway
17:24 hecks       but the heightmap trick could be useful in the "plants die with no light, fungi die with light" round
17:25 hecks       as that will require its own loop
17:25 hecks       also, I understand that it's safe to skip iterating over the chunk padding area?
17:26 paramat     safe yes as that's an overlap
17:30 timdorohin  paramat: what you think, if i add support for loading mapgens as binary plugins (.dll/.so like plugins in browser) will it be accepted to mainline?
17:31 rubenwardy  I'd support such a thing
17:31 rubenwardy  depending on the complexity
17:34 hecks       it's the server's problem, so why not
17:34 hecks       I wouldn't mind having server side native code in general
17:34 paramat     plugin c++ mapgens?
17:34 timdorohin  Yea
17:35 Krock       just Compile It Yourself because binary packages from a random person does not look very trustworthy
17:35 Krock       native code sounds good - especially in terms of speed
17:38 timdorohin  Krock: i can compile my own version with my own mapgen code, but there are many people in community that didn't know how to do it.
17:42 paramat     the concept sounds good but it depends on practicalities and security
17:42 paramat     also the amount of disruption and work needed at a time of lowest dev activity
18:39 rocky1138   Have you seen Amidst for Minetest? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBs6YrYXlgU
18:54 sfan5       !title
18:54 MinetestBot sfan5: Amidst for Minetest - YouTube
19:03 hecks       so let us discuss parallel universes and why minetest doesn't need them
19:04 hecks       though the final word will be, as always, "code it yerself wiseguy"
19:04 Hijiri      I don't think I have enough time, but I have thought about writing it
19:05 Hijiri      It could be done incrementally in a reasonable way so that it doesn't require a mega-PR that conflicts with everything else
19:05 hecks       try making it work with *one* dimension in lua alone, first
19:05 hecks       or, code the rest of the damn game
19:05 Hijiri      "Minetest is an engine, not a game"
19:06 Hijiri      also it's easy to make it work with one dimension, just don't do anything
19:06 hecks       yeah, so... if you want to improve the engine, I suppose you have a game in mind that requires it
19:07 Hijiri      a mystcraft clone would be such a mod, not sure if I actually want to do that though
19:07 Hijiri      Maybe that's also why I'm not actually working on the feature
19:08 Hijiri      also is there a list somewhere of the most critical Minetest features to be implemented
19:08 Hijiri      there is the 5.0.0 project, but it only lists the CSM feature (and some other non-feature improvements)
19:09 Hijiri      Oh, there's the content brower
19:09 Hijiri      browser
19:09 Shara       Personally find it a little depressing when someone wants soemthign just so they can clone something else better.
19:09 Shara       Try and be original instead :P
19:09 Shara       something*
19:10 hecks       CSM is pretty critical, it would fix a lot of nasty issues with custom games
19:10 hecks       there is the content browser, yes
19:10 Hijiri      surely if there's one concept that benefits from infinite dimensions, there is more than one
19:10 Hijiri      the space of mods can't be that small
19:10 hecks       and some people somewhere are thinking of making the fabled VAOs, if they feel like it
19:10 Hijiri      VAEs?
19:10 hecks       in general, minetest's feature schedule highly depends on people willing, able and feeling like doing said features
19:11 hecks       yeah, VAO/VAEs, entities made out of nodes
19:11 Hijiri      ah, ok
19:11 hecks       honestly, I could do VAOs in lua if colliders were not AABBs, and if attachments weren't so flimsy
19:13 Hijiri      I think it would be difficult to get node callbacks and things to work properly though
19:13 MinetestBot 02[git] 04SmallJoker -> 03minetest/minetest_game: map: Use wood group crafting recipe 13f42deb4 https://git.io/fAbAO (152018-09-24T19:13:01Z)
19:13 hecks       definitely, they wouldn't be "nodes" in that sense
19:14 hecks       but if you just want to build airships, it would be good enough
19:14 * hecks     fondly remembers building a 3-mapblock-long frameship and losing it due to bugs
19:17 hecks       I think there are still more pressing concerns regarding minetest
19:17 hecks       like "where's the friggin' gameplay, what's the point"
19:17 hecks       I do believe not even minecraft got that solved
19:18 hecks       but one can dream https://a.uguu.se/xXJC0FKWWbyI_jelly.png
19:53 hecks       I'm having on_generated called several times for the same minp, maxp range
19:55 sfan5       happens
19:56 hecks       a lot, it appears
19:56 hecks       should I just file the range into some kind of table and skip the chunk if already generated?
20:00 hecks       huh, doesn't do it anymore
20:00 hecks       gremlins
20:01 paramat     using multiple mapgen threads?
20:01 hecks       I was
20:01 hecks       I'll recheck
20:01 hecks       also, get_biome_at is *slow*
20:02 hecks       oh yes, threaded emerge causes that
20:03 paramat     'get biome data' is not meant for using in very high numbers, and it's as fast as it can be :)
20:04 hecks       I'll use biomemap...
20:05 hecks       I've got a bigger issue to grind my teeth on now, not knowing if minetest is calling my post-mapgen several times more than necessary
20:06 hecks       thought this would work https://pastebin.com/jGmr2XZV
20:07 hecks       but it just causes some chunks to not get generated ever
20:09 paramat     should be no need if you're not using threaded emerge
20:09 hecks       I'd much, much rather be using threaded emerge
20:09 hecks       if you've seen my mapgen woes
20:10 hecks       could it be that emerge threads use bogus coordinates to avoid collision?
20:11 paramat     i can't see an issue for multiple mapchunk generation
20:11 hecks       https://a.uguu.se/pFoZwbe5xSpn_blah.png
20:11 hecks       this is what's happening, it's thinking that this chunk was already done, and skips it
20:12 hecks       if using the code pastebinned above
20:12 hecks       the only thing that could cause this if threaded emerge was fiddling with minp, maxp
20:12 hecks       in which case, "oh no, I'm getting the same chunk generated 3 times" is a false alarm and I don't need to do this
20:16 paramat     hmm
20:17 paramat     does your smoothing code run for every mapchunk, because 'calc lighting' is needed for every mapchunk due to 'nolight' being used
20:18 paramat     i guess it does
20:18 hecks       yes, while using that code snippet above to check if it isn't running on_generated multiple times
20:19 hecks       either way, one emerge thread seems faster than multiple, somehow
20:20 hecks       doesn't even choke globalstep as much
20:23 hecks       a setting of "0" also works fine, but I'm not sure if it's using 1 or some optimal number
20:24 hecks       don't really trust the documentation on this one, and cpu usage seems inconclusive (hovering around 50%)
21:51 hecks       %s, the %s died of dehydration in the middle of a desert https://a.uguu.se/IdxAlVX0hVYA_sand.png
21:52 hecks       and should probably thank paramat for its gruesome death
21:53 sfan5       the committee of family friendliness has something to say about your player model
21:54 timdorohin  hecks: i want to unsee it
21:56 hecks       the committee can go get eaten by a grue
22:01 hecks       https://a.uguu.se/O3JyGNa5Fs4V_sw.gif I ain't got time for clothes y'know
22:03 timdorohin  hecks: is this minetest or scarlet blade? :D
22:04 hecks       well, the taskbar tells me it's minetest
22:05 timdorohin  hecks: :D
22:45 hecks       sfan5: the committee may be informed that their complaints have been heard, and the offending art was adjusted https://a.uguu.se/gTmlGub3FjRS_scr.png
22:46 sfan5       very nice
22:46 hecks       further complaints may be directed to the grue
22:48 hecks       speaking of grues, is there a way to know if a node would be lit by sunlight if it were day, even when it isn't?
22:49 paramat     yes
22:49 paramat     'get light at pos' i think
22:50 paramat     has a parameter for time of day
22:50 hecks       good
22:50 hecks       this will also be useful to tell if rainfall would reach a certain node
22:54 paramat     https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/766fb7b46edab47f96b8b940e390daf5319261b7/doc/lua_api.txt#L3847
22:54 paramat     should read: '0 for midnight, 0.5 for midday'
22:57 paramat     yeah 15 means under open sky
23:03 hecks       oh right
23:04 hecks       I've had an issue with the model's file size
23:05 hecks       minetest caps it at some network packet size, uncompressed at that
23:11 paramat     hm i guess MT is not used to hidef models, maybe the limit can be raised with no problem
23:12 sfan5       or throw compression on it
23:13 sfan5       if that's easily doable
23:20 hecks       https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/7744
23:20 hecks       it's not the model that kills this limit, it's animation
23:21 hecks       and it will happen even with the blockiest model if it has enough animations
23:22 hecks       60 to 120 seconds of animations will exhaust the file size, depending on skeleton complexity