| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 00:00 |
|
Viper168 joined #minetest |
| 00:01 |
est31 |
its the debian bugtracker, you wont submit bugs to that if you run openbsd |
| 00:02 |
est31 |
i have a debian fork |
| 00:02 |
Arch-TK |
Which version of openal and which version of minetest? |
| 00:02 |
Arch-TK |
also, surely, you should send the bug report to upstream if it's an upstream issue |
| 00:04 |
Arch-TK |
I'm running openal 1.16.0 with the cmake command line of cmake -D CMAKE_INSTALL_PREFIX=/usr -D CMAKE_BUILD_TYPE=Release .. |
| 00:04 |
est31 |
version: see second line of the bug, and the launchpad bug |
| 00:04 |
Arch-TK |
Minetest 0.4.11 |
| 00:04 |
Arch-TK |
So right, I'm running a newer version of openal than you and I'm not getting the problem. |
| 00:05 |
Arch-TK |
The next task you should take up is figuring out if a bug like this was reported to upstream and see if it was fixed. |
| 00:06 |
Arch-TK |
Because if it was fixed, then you shouldn't need to tell the debian packagers to wait for upstream to fix, you should tell them to update their damn packages, obviously, I'm not sure what the debian policy on this is, so their reason for being a version late might just be that they're not archlinux. |
| 00:06 |
acerspyro |
Arch-TK: Debian is ALWAYS outdated |
| 00:06 |
acerspyro |
Stability reasons |
| 00:06 |
Arch-TK |
Exactly. |
| 00:07 |
acerspyro |
I use a rolling release, stuff rarely comes in after 2-3 days. |
| 00:07 |
est31 |
severe bugfixes are backported |
| 00:07 |
acerspyro |
unless it's really unusable. |
| 00:07 |
Arch-TK |
despite the fact that `openal-soft/1:1.15.1-5` is marked as `testing, unstable` |
| 00:08 |
exio4 |
I use a rolling release debian |
| 00:08 |
exio4 |
also, the mainstream binary rolling release I know is pretty sucky mostly for that reason |
| 00:09 |
exio4 |
"stuff comes after 4 days, (it may break half the system, as long as you don't use the same environment as the one who packaged it)" |
| 00:10 |
acerspyro |
No |
| 00:10 |
acerspyro |
Nononono |
| 00:10 |
acerspyro |
That's a trolling release |
| 00:11 |
|
turtleman_ joined #minetest |
| 00:11 |
exio4 |
I am talking about Archlinux |
| 00:12 |
exio4 |
unless things have changed in the last years |
| 00:12 |
Arch-TK |
If you think archlinux breaks that easily you clearly have never actually used archlinux and are talking completely out of your arse. |
| 00:12 |
exio4 |
I have to say I haven't used it in the past two years |
| 00:13 |
exio4 |
the year and half I used I only used it before it was pretty cool and I liked wasting time with it |
| 00:13 |
Arch-TK |
I get odd package behaviour about once every 3 months where I have to pacman -U a previous version of a package to get things working, but nothing has ever broken "half the system" yet and it doesn't sound like it will. |
| 00:14 |
exio4 |
I didn't mean half the system literally, but things like the graphics fucking up because untested combination of libraries with similar hardware to mine was my main problem |
| 00:14 |
Arch-TK |
I've had problems with graphics but only on systems where someone didn't tell me they had changed the graphics card while I wasn't looking. |
| 00:15 |
exio4 |
it was an intel igp, that's the fun part |
| 00:15 |
Arch-TK |
I've never had problems with those, they seem to work best. |
| 00:16 |
exio4 |
(was, because that laptop is now dead, well, if you find a charger, plug the harddisk, buy it ram, get an usb keyboard+mouse, it'll work) |
| 00:16 |
exio4 |
how long have you been using it? that happened after 6-9 months using archlinux |
| 00:16 |
Arch-TK |
I've been using it for a few months over a year now. |
| 00:17 |
exio4 |
though; as I said, things may have changed, and now they don't push broken software without testing it in more than their own setups |
| 00:17 |
Arch-TK |
And I've done some weird shit with this system. |
| 00:17 |
Arch-TK |
In fact, in this very room, there are 3 machines running arch. |
| 00:17 |
Arch-TK |
One is an arm single board computer (ODROID-C1), one is my dell optiplex server, and one is my desktop computer. |
| 00:17 |
exio4 |
I would totally use it in a linux container / virtual machine |
| 00:17 |
Arch-TK |
Then there's a laptop downstairs also running it. |
| 00:18 |
exio4 |
a server? dude, you're insane :) |
| 00:18 |
Arch-TK |
And the most problems I've ever had with any of these computers was sound with alsa, and that was easily fixed with switching to pulse |
| 00:18 |
Arch-TK |
Why am I insane? |
| 00:19 |
Arch-TK |
I run it on a VPS too. Sure things every now and again have a hitch, but it performs better than most distributions, pacman is a dream package manager, outperforming apt and yum in every regard. |
| 00:19 |
exio4 |
I never heard of anyone using it in a server, and wasn't joking |
| 00:19 |
exio4 |
comparing it to apt/yum is a weak argument |
| 00:19 |
exio4 |
for a rolling release distro, I'd totally go with Gentoo |
| 00:19 |
|
est31 joined #minetest |
| 00:19 |
Arch-TK |
Well, I don't know why that is, pacman is a package manager, yum and apt are also package managers. |
| 00:20 |
Arch-TK |
But with gentoo you need to compile and it takes too long if you want a computer to use now, I'd use gentoo on a separate machine if I wanted to see how many optimization flags I can throw at things before they explode. |
| 00:20 |
est31 |
Arch-TK: tried git master from openal-soft, gives no sound |
| 00:20 |
exio4 |
Arch-TK: too long? |
| 00:20 |
Arch-TK |
too long what? |
| 00:21 |
everamzah |
is it muted? |
| 00:21 |
exio4 |
Arch-TK: that's a cool excuse if we were still in the 90s |
| 00:21 |
est31 |
no, when I keep all settings, and try 0.15.0, everything works |
| 00:21 |
Arch-TK |
exio4: I can compile the kernel in 10 minutes with my config, but have you ever actually compiled glibc and gcc etc...? |
| 00:21 |
est31 |
gonna check whether there is some special debian patch involved... |
| 00:21 |
exio4 |
Arch-TK: yes |
| 00:22 |
Arch-TK |
exio4: That stuff doesn't take 10 minutes, it takes 20 or 30 or more. |
| 00:22 |
Arch-TK |
And when you have to start compiling X and other such stuff it quickly turns into half a day of a machine whirring loudly at you. |
| 00:22 |
exio4 |
Arch-TK: that stuff doesn't update every day, you're talking about worst-cases moments |
| 00:23 |
est31 |
Arch-TK: you were right, it was debian not updating their stuff |
| 00:23 |
exio4 |
Arch-TK: uh, my 1.6GHz intel atom needed one day and half for compiling the kernel + core system + xorg + qt4 + kde |
| 00:23 |
Arch-TK |
Of course it doesn't update every day, but you still need to compile initially. |
| 00:24 |
est31 |
exio4: most important for compiling is the HDD. SSDs are best for this task... |
| 00:24 |
Arch-TK |
Most important for compiling is a compiler which is not gcc |
| 00:24 |
est31 |
gonna bisect... |
| 00:24 |
Arch-TK |
like clang |
| 00:24 |
|
luizrpgluiz joined #minetest |
| 00:24 |
Arch-TK |
you can't use it for the kernel though. |
| 00:24 |
Arch-TK |
too many gcc specific things |
| 00:25 |
Arch-TK |
I do like statement expressions however, they're quite nice. |
| 00:25 |
luizrpgluiz |
hi |
| 00:25 |
Arch-TK |
clang does allow them however. |
| 00:25 |
Arch-TK |
Along with typeof() which is all I need to be happy. |
| 00:25 |
exio4 |
est31: in that case, I don't really think the HDD would have helped that much |
| 00:25 |
exio4 |
in this new setup, I bet the HDD is a bottleneck, though |
| 00:25 |
exio4 |
I will be buying two SSDs in a few months |
| 00:27 |
exio4 |
Arch-TK: well, it's a bit of a tradeoff, I won't tell you "compiling is faster than installing a binary!" |
| 00:27 |
est31 |
Maaaaaan git bisect cannot work properly in this case. |
| 00:27 |
est31 |
Some good revs are not ancestor of the bad rev. |
| 00:28 |
est31 |
ah mistaken |
| 00:28 |
Arch-TK |
That's probably because the good revisions are in the future not the past. |
| 00:29 |
exio4 |
est31: what hardware do you run your setup on? |
| 00:29 |
est31 |
amd |
| 00:29 |
exio4 |
yeah, but, which CPU (model, at least?) |
| 00:30 |
exio4 |
I've had lots of problem with 'newer' software using my 13+ year old computer, as most of the stuff assumed they could use SSE2 and other fancy things my old cpu didn't support :P |
| 00:30 |
est31 |
http://pastebin.com/jM0pi8Ch |
| 00:30 |
exio4 |
oh well, that one is pretty good |
| 00:33 |
|
sparqz joined #minetest |
| 00:34 |
|
alket joined #minetest |
| 00:34 |
exio4 |
hmm |
| 00:34 |
exio4 |
Version: 1:1.15.1-5 |
| 00:35 |
exio4 |
minetest's sound is working over here? |
| 00:35 |
sparqz |
hmm not sure... |
| 00:36 |
|
luizrpgluiz left #minetest |
| 00:36 |
sparqz |
anyone familiar with seeds when making a world? i got stuck on an island with no trees lol |
| 00:37 |
est31 |
I HATE compile errors in master |
| 00:37 |
est31 |
and they even span a looong time |
| 00:55 |
Arch-TK |
I don't get why people use the awful abomination that is pastebin. |
| 00:56 |
Arch-TK |
There's http://ix.io/ http://sprunge.us/ http://ptpb.pw/ all which don't have ads, actually let you change the syntax highlighting afterwards, are curl/wget friendly, can be used to upload from the command line. |
| 00:56 |
Arch-TK |
But no, people still love adbin the compilation of slow crud. |
| 00:57 |
thaostra |
It works fine for temporal pastes. personally I prefer using gist.github.com because it has versioning, forking, and multiple file support |
| 00:58 |
Arch-TK |
It's slow, full of ads, doesn't have versioning, looks ugly, adds whitespace, has annoying captchas and spam filters. |
| 00:58 |
Arch-TK |
It's absolutely ridiculous. |
| 00:59 |
Arch-TK |
Even http://bpaste.net/ |
| 00:59 |
Arch-TK |
that has expirations and syntax highlighting without ads, mess of copy paste, whitespace nonsense, captchas and spamfilters. |
| 00:59 |
thaostra |
Well, pastebin can still do raw files so that users don't need to view all of that |
| 01:00 |
Arch-TK |
your argument literally doesn't make sense, i've given you a tool which you've just said does what pastebin does well, without the rest of the nonsense, and then you've come to defend pastebin saying that it can do raw files which solves about 2 of the problems. |
| 01:01 |
sparqz |
i'm a nub how do you zoom out in minetest? |
| 01:01 |
sparqz |
since arch wants to be so far off topic :-p |
| 01:03 |
acerspyro |
Zoom out? you can zoom in? |
| 01:04 |
sparqz |
i meant change view like 3rd person |
| 01:04 |
thaostra |
Hey, I said it works fine for temporal pastes. It's not the best, but it was certainly one of the first of its kind which is more than enough to give it the momentum it has today. As I said, I prefer gist.github, but for the majority of users they're content with pastebin's facilities. All those sites you recommended are good, but simply being better isn't the only reason to use something |
| 01:04 |
Arch-TK |
sparqz: seeds are for the random generator and they're unlikely to give any meaningful result based on any meaningful rule, random number generators work off of chaos theory for a reason. |
| 01:04 |
Arch-TK |
sparqz: I don't think there is third person view in minetest |
| 01:04 |
sparqz |
so i was just unlucky in that map then |
| 01:04 |
exio4 |
you can press f5, f6 or f7 |
| 01:04 |
sparqz |
ok tanks arch back to complaining about pastebin :-D |
| 01:04 |
|
Player_2 joined #minetest |
| 01:04 |
exio4 |
and you'll get third person view |
| 01:04 |
exio4 |
I don't remember the keybind :D |
| 01:05 |
exio4 |
I am being really helpful, I know |
| 01:05 |
sparqz |
it's none of those lol |
| 01:06 |
exio4 |
but it's mostly a "there is a third person view somewhere there" |
| 01:06 |
exio4 |
F7 for me |
| 01:06 |
exio4 |
sparqz: ^ |
| 01:06 |
exio4 |
which MT version are you running? |
| 01:06 |
Arch-TK |
F7 here. Although I'm sure in 0.4.10 this wasn't possible. |
| 01:07 |
sparqz |
hmm ya it's supposed to be f7 hmm i'm on 4.9 |
| 01:07 |
exio4 |
sparqz: 0.4.9, and you should be using a newer version |
| 01:07 |
Arch-TK |
recompile/update minetest |
| 01:07 |
sparqz |
i just downloaded it the other day |
| 01:07 |
exio4 |
Arch-TK: I think 0.4.10 had it? |
| 01:08 |
Arch-TK |
maybe it did. |
| 01:08 |
sparqz |
hmm so apt-get says i have up to date.. |
| 01:09 |
exio4 |
what distro are you using? *buntu, debian, linux mint? |
| 01:09 |
est31 |
hehe yet another one facing the problem that their distro aint rollin' |
| 01:09 |
sparqz |
mint |
| 01:09 |
Arch-TK |
so basically, your distribution is slow and boring. |
| 01:10 |
est31 |
why slow |
| 01:10 |
Arch-TK |
I mean slow in the sense of response time to updates. |
| 01:10 |
Arch-TK |
and boring in the sense that it doesn't take risks |
| 01:10 |
est31 |
and "boring" is just another way to express "stable" |
| 01:10 |
exio4 |
sparqz: well, I think the PPA may be what you want? (the 'best' way is compiling it yourself, which is pretty easy) |
| 01:10 |
Arch-TK |
stable is boring, it's also a misnomer. |
| 01:10 |
acerspyro |
Nothing is stable. |
| 01:11 |
thaostra |
Add the minetest dev's PPA; it'll have the latest stable release |
| 01:11 |
Arch-TK |
Arch packages go through testing before they fall into the repositories. |
| 01:11 |
acerspyro |
Nothing is tested intensively. |
| 01:11 |
Arch-TK |
They're essentially stable. |
| 01:11 |
sparqz |
yeah i'm looking for it |
| 01:11 |
thaostra |
https://launchpad.net/~minetestdevs/+archive/ubuntu/stable |
| 01:11 |
Arch-TK |
As stable as these other distros. |
| 01:11 |
est31 |
Arch-TK: you are testing the packages I get |
| 01:11 |
est31 |
thank you for that |
| 01:11 |
Arch-TK |
Of course. |
| 01:11 |
thaostra |
You're welcome |
| 01:11 |
exio4 |
Arch-TK: I don't know if you are being sarcastic or not |
| 01:11 |
Arch-TK |
est31: Expect rough times with opensmtpd and gnupg |
| 01:12 |
est31 |
why |
| 01:12 |
exio4 |
the problems aren't the package themselves, but the reverse dependencies on that package, which may break down in certain setups |
| 01:12 |
exio4 |
in * |
| 01:12 |
Arch-TK |
est31: opensmtpd 5.4.4p1 doesn't like me |
| 01:13 |
Arch-TK |
est31: gnupg changed things which seem to have broken old keyrings for some people, but this is easily fixed. |
| 01:13 |
exio4 |
we just need a new big release of something 8) |
| 01:13 |
acerspyro |
complete rewrite, this code is doomed :D |
| 01:13 |
thaostra |
I use Ubuntu because I prefer stability, so PPAs allow me to pick whatever packages I want to keep up to date |
| 01:13 |
exio4 |
2 weeks where everything is fucked up in rolling releases distros a la arch |
| 01:13 |
est31 |
I have neither one. no smtp as I haven't found a great dns name yet, and no gnupg as I'm lazy :P |
| 01:13 |
Arch-TK |
"I prefer stability" "ubuntu" |
| 01:13 |
sparqz |
ok added the ppa |
| 01:13 |
Arch-TK |
welp, you're fucked. |
| 01:13 |
acerspyro |
[20:13] <Arch-TK> "I prefer stability" "ubuntu" |
| 01:14 |
acerspyro |
Ha. |
| 01:14 |
acerspyro |
lol. |
| 01:14 |
acerspyro |
Haha. |
| 01:14 |
acerspyro |
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA |
| 01:14 |
thaostra |
Arch-TK, Uptime currently, 127 days |
| 01:14 |
sparqz |
I like mint because i'm trying to convert my wife and kid |
| 01:14 |
acerspyro |
THESE GUYS IMPLEMENT THEIR OWN BUGS ON PURPOSE TO FUCK WITH YOU |
| 01:14 |
acerspyro |
LOLOLOLOLOLOL |
| 01:14 |
sparqz |
canonical? |
| 01:14 |
acerspyro |
yes |
| 01:14 |
exio4 |
I thought I was being childish in this channel |
| 01:15 |
sparqz |
Is slackware still updated? |
| 01:15 |
exio4 |
apparently I wasn't |
| 01:15 |
exio4 |
sparqz: yes? |
| 01:15 |
Arch-TK |
I think there's a difference between childish and accepting of the facts. |
| 01:15 |
sparqz |
their website looks pretty much same as 8 years ago when i was using it |
| 01:15 |
acerspyro |
I tried the FGLRX drivers. Unusable. maximized windows get offset by 10 px to the left for some reason, AND NOONE NOTICED THAT, even tho it happens on all ATI GPUs running on 14.10 |
| 01:15 |
acerspyro |
+woth FGLRX |
| 01:15 |
acerspyro |
with* |
| 01:15 |
thaostra |
>Using Catalyst at all |
| 01:16 |
acerspyro |
thaostra: Still, noone noticed it |
| 01:16 |
thaostra |
Get with the times, the Radeon is pretty good now |
| 01:16 |
thaostra |
* Radeon driver |
| 01:16 |
acerspyro |
Depends |
| 01:16 |
acerspyro |
It is excellent, yes |
| 01:16 |
acerspyro |
But the version that's on Ubuntu was, idk, meh. |
| 01:16 |
exio4 |
I actually just use debian stable as main host because I don't want to keep mantaining it |
| 01:16 |
thaostra |
Desktop responsiveness, system integration, stability |
| 01:17 |
exio4 |
it's just, it's working, let's not touch it! |
| 01:17 |
Arch-TK |
That's why I use arch. |
| 01:17 |
acerspyro |
I just use OpenSUSE. |
| 01:17 |
acerspyro |
rolling release |
| 01:17 |
Arch-TK |
Because I only need to type pacman -Syu every few days. |
| 01:17 |
acerspyro |
I only need to sudo zypper up every few days |
| 01:17 |
Arch-TK |
And the majority of the time that works for months. |
| 01:17 |
exio4 |
"majority of the time" |
| 01:17 |
acerspyro |
And all the time that works for months |
| 01:17 |
exio4 |
you've said it dude |
| 01:17 |
Arch-TK |
Until some weird thing happens and things break for the 5 minutes while i pacman -Su |
| 01:18 |
thaostra |
Majority of the time isn't good enough for me |
| 01:18 |
Arch-TK |
exio4: Yes, please don't tell me that your debian box will work forever and ever. |
| 01:18 |
Arch-TK |
Because you would be lying. |
| 01:18 |
acerspyro |
Until you go insane and start deleting random files because you went insane. |
| 01:18 |
acerspyro |
exio4: MSDOS works |
| 01:18 |
acerspyro |
Use it |
| 01:18 |
thaostra |
acerspyro, Slackware is that way -> |
| 01:18 |
exio4 |
Arch-TK: apt-get update && apt-get upgrade never broke anything for me in my debian stable 8) |
| 01:18 |
* chrisf |
comes back from lunch and you're all still waving around your distros. time to zypper up indeed... |
| 01:19 |
exio4 |
(unless I was changing betwen versions, which pretty much has a dumb-proof "things that may stop working") |
| 01:19 |
Arch-TK |
thaostra: If "the majority of the time" is works for a year until a small hitch isn't good enough, then I don't know what is. |
| 01:19 |
acerspyro |
Arch-TK: stubbornness. |
| 01:19 |
Arch-TK |
exio4: but I bet it took two weeks for apt's slow arse to move. |
| 01:19 |
exio4 |
Arch-TK: uh? |
| 01:19 |
Arch-TK |
I literally can't stand how slow apt is. |
| 01:19 |
Arch-TK |
Being used to pacman. |
| 01:19 |
acerspyro |
lol |
| 01:19 |
exio4 |
stop moving the goalpost |
| 01:20 |
exio4 |
but well, k |
| 01:20 |
acerspyro |
Arch-TK: I used to be using Arch |
| 01:20 |
thaostra |
Arch-TK> exio4: but I bet it took two weeks for apt's slow arse to move. <- Apt is slow? News to me. Then again, I use SSDs for everything |
| 01:20 |
acerspyro |
Until I broke it. |
| 01:20 |
acerspyro |
:D |
| 01:20 |
acerspyro |
BRILLIANT GUY RIGHT HERE |
| 01:20 |
acerspyro |
<--- |
| 01:20 |
Arch-TK |
thaostra: You should try pacman and tell me that apt is fast. |
| 01:20 |
exio4 |
Arch-TK: pacman is fast because it's doing nothing |
| 01:20 |
est31 |
! ! ! F L L A A A M M M E E E W W W A A A R R R ! ! ! |
| 01:20 |
thaostra |
Nah, I prefer to not babysit my distros |
| 01:20 |
exio4 |
that too |
| 01:20 |
chrisf |
how about that mt |
| 01:20 |
exio4 |
ArchLinux is a bit like a game |
| 01:20 |
exio4 |
you have to play it |
| 01:20 |
Arch-TK |
exio4: What exactly does pacman not do that apt does? |
| 01:21 |
exio4 |
Arch-TK: I'd say more than pacman and apt, it's the scripts |
| 01:21 |
exio4 |
Debian's "post/pre" scripts do way more |
| 01:21 |
Arch-TK |
Right... |
| 01:21 |
Arch-TK |
Like what. |
| 01:21 |
* acerspyro |
burns est31 to dust and puts his fumes into a mason jar, which he then insets into a soccer ball and kicks it as far as he can. Then acerspyro gets some dogs to find the jar back, opens up the jar and lets the dogs eat the fumes. He them proceeds to washing the jar with bleach. |
| 01:21 |
Arch-TK |
And in any case, you're still making no sense, having to fix one small problem once a year isn't exactly babysitting, it's better than most maintenance on anything else. |
| 01:22 |
exio4 |
Arch-TK: "one small problem once a year" isn't quite right |
| 01:22 |
thaostra |
Don't get me wrong, Arch's design is neat and the wiki is fantastic, but I use Debian-based distros because I like my OS to get out of the way when I just want to get work done |
| 01:22 |
Arch-TK |
Especially when the fix involves spending 5 minutes. |
| 01:22 |
Arch-TK |
exio4: Have you used arch recently? |
| 01:22 |
Arch-TK |
No? |
| 01:22 |
exio4 |
I already told you I haven't used it (seriously) in the past years |
| 01:22 |
* est31 |
hasnt started http://webchat.oftc.net/?nick=est31&channels=%23debian-bugs&uio=d4 |
| 01:22 |
Arch-TK |
Well then stop making moot points based on old data. |
| 01:22 |
est31 |
dammit |
| 01:22 |
acerspyro |
exio4: of course, it's like meat |
| 01:22 |
est31 |
ignore ^ |
| 01:23 |
acerspyro |
If you freeze it, nothing happens. |
| 01:23 |
exio4 |
when I used it I got told the same things |
| 01:23 |
|
turtleman_ joined #minetest |
| 01:23 |
* est31 |
hasnt started the flamewar. |
| 01:23 |
exio4 |
and then stuff broke and was "fk them, they were right" |
| 01:23 |
thaostra |
The last time I tried Arch, they got rid of their TUI installer and instead made it purely command line with a text file that's a copy of the instructions on the wiki. Is it still like that? |
| 01:23 |
acerspyro |
Nope, but I ended a yet-to-start flamewar, setting the endpoint before its start point. |
| 01:23 |
acerspyro |
thaostra: same here |
| 01:23 |
Arch-TK |
look, this is getting seriously silly, you're both making claims about how in the way and unstable arch is, without actually any backup of any sort. |
| 01:24 |
chrisf |
thaostra: yes, it is still like that. |
| 01:24 |
acerspyro |
Arch-TK: I didn't. I like Arch. I broke it myself, I'm an idiot. :) |
| 01:24 |
exio4 |
Arch-TK: you're not giving any proof either |
| 01:24 |
Arch-TK |
acerspyro is the only other person here who recently used it |
| 01:24 |
est31 |
acerspyro: you are participating in the flamewar |
| 01:24 |
Arch-TK |
Of course arch needs someone competent maintaining it, but it doesn't require anywhere near enough maintenance to call it babysitting. |
| 01:24 |
acerspyro |
Not really. I already said what I had to say. |
| 01:25 |
chrisf |
Arch-TK: i use it on all my dev boxes |
| 01:25 |
Arch-TK |
I'm not saying it's a distribution for people who don't know what they're doing and is perfect for noobs. |
| 01:25 |
exio4 |
are you telling us you're THE sysadmin now? ;) |
| 01:25 |
Arch-TK |
I'm saying that if you know what you're doing, and you're competent enough to set it up, it runs until you put a brick wall in front of it yourself. |
| 01:25 |
exio4 |
I tell you, the idea is that it needs you to think too much about useless things |
| 01:25 |
exio4 |
I liked it as a desktop toy OS |
| 01:25 |
* acerspyro |
considers Debian to be a server OS |
| 01:25 |
Arch-TK |
I don't have to think about any useless things when I'm doing things on it. |
| 01:26 |
exio4 |
never going to use it in a server, because a rolling release distro there doesn't make sense |
| 01:26 |
acerspyro |
3outdated5me |
| 01:26 |
Arch-TK |
Once again, you're talking out of your arse, arch now is not arch two years ago. |
| 01:26 |
exio4 |
I know |
| 01:26 |
exio4 |
your arguments are pretty much "well, I haven't experienced your problem so you must be wrong" though |
| 01:27 |
exio4 |
I haven't seen any link to a post about changes in the testing procedures or anything |
| 01:27 |
exio4 |
have you got any? |
| 01:27 |
Arch-TK |
It's not a server distro for people who want something to run forever with no failure, but there are distros specifically for that job, however, for someone who wants a distribution which lets them mould it to any shape without any predefined shape, arch is perfect. |
| 01:27 |
exio4 |
arch actually fails at that |
| 01:27 |
Arch-TK |
exio4: the burden of proof rests on you by definition. |
| 01:27 |
acerspyro |
exio4: No, wrong, you fail to read the instructions. |
| 01:27 |
Arch-TK |
You're the one trying to say that there is a problem. |
| 01:27 |
acerspyro |
This is most people's problem. |
| 01:28 |
thaostra |
exio4, Or rather, doesn't understand where we're coming from. When I was younger Arch would've been perfect for me, but now I prefer a distro that focuses on not breaking things with each update because I don't like wasting my time simply fixing my OS |
| 01:28 |
Arch-TK |
*facepalm* |
| 01:28 |
acerspyro |
Good thing on OpenSUSE is |
| 01:28 |
sparqz |
I thought bout trying suse |
| 01:28 |
exio4 |
acerspyro: I've read it, and when stuff broke it wasn't in any wiki, because nobody using some kind of similar setup did anything about it |
| 01:28 |
acerspyro |
If you do zypper up, nothing will break |
| 01:28 |
Arch-TK |
This is getting quite honestly ridiculous, I've seen more breakage from updates on debian and ubuntu than I've ever seen from arch. |
| 01:29 |
acerspyro |
It will only risk breaking if you do zypper dup |
| 01:29 |
thaostra |
We clearly have different experiences then |
| 01:29 |
Arch-TK |
by default, because of the way that arch is tested, there is little chance than any update is ever going to break any system completely. |
| 01:29 |
Arch-TK |
And the main change in the testing procedures is that there are simply more people testing. |
| 01:30 |
exio4 |
Arch-TK: if we're talking about fallacies, I have to say you were doing a tu quoque, and fallacy fallacy |
| 01:30 |
Arch-TK |
I never mentioned fallacies. |
| 01:30 |
exio4 |
( relevant comic, http://existentialcomics.com/comic/9 ) |
| 01:30 |
exio4 |
Arch-TK: "burden of proof" is a fallacy |
| 01:31 |
Arch-TK |
no it's not |
| 01:32 |
exio4 |
how old are you btw? |
| 01:32 |
Arch-TK |
The burden of proof is your obligation to provide sufficient evidence and proof of your beliefs on a position. |
| 01:32 |
Arch-TK |
It is not a fallacy. |
| 01:32 |
Arch-TK |
You clearly have no idea what a fallacy is. |
| 01:32 |
exio4 |
how busy you are in real life may explain |
| 01:33 |
exio4 |
Arch-TK: ad hominem! |
| 01:33 |
exio4 |
how busy you are in real life may explain it * |
| 01:33 |
exio4 |
Arch-TK: well, you did a fallacy fallacy though |
| 01:34 |
Arch-TK |
No, I simply told you that you asking me for proof of arch working is nonsensical since you made the claim that it doesn't without any actual relevant proof from recent experience. |
| 01:34 |
Arch-TK |
A fallacy fallacy would be me telling your argument is not correct because you don't provide relevant proof, I've simply not done that at any point. |
| 01:35 |
est31 |
YEAH I HAVE FOUND THE FIXING COMMIT: 564a18 Avoid an underflow in the SSE mixers if BufferSize is less than 4 |
| 01:35 |
Arch-TK |
The most I did was discredit your argument because of your blatant lack of regard for actually taking this argument forward by actually possibly maybe arguing. |
| 01:35 |
Arch-TK |
est31: congratulations. |
| 01:35 |
exio4 |
pretty much you said my argument was false because I didn't give any proofs |
| 01:36 |
Arch-TK |
No, I said that you shouldn't be asking me for proof, I should be asking you for proof. |
| 01:36 |
Arch-TK |
That's exactly not saying that your argument is false because you didn't give any proof. |
| 01:36 |
exio4 |
well |
| 01:36 |
Arch-TK |
and in fact, not giving any proof in any amount of time, doesn't simply make your argument false, it makes your argument a waste of time. |
| 01:36 |
Arch-TK |
since not giving proof is not a falacy |
| 01:36 |
Arch-TK |
it's just failing to argue |
| 01:37 |
Arch-TK |
fallacy* |
| 01:37 |
exio4 |
yup |
| 01:37 |
Arch-TK |
Now once again, for the past year, I've not had any major outstanding problems on the 5 machine I run arch on, I've given you examples of small problems I've had. |
| 01:37 |
Arch-TK |
I've given my side of the argument, I can't give you proof of no problems because that's not something which can be proved. |
| 01:38 |
Arch-TK |
You have to give me proof that archlinux, under normal use, constantly breaks. |
| 01:38 |
sparqz |
so do you guys always fight like this? |
| 01:38 |
Arch-TK |
My use is not normal use, it does not constantly break. |
| 01:38 |
exio4 |
you're the first archlinux I hear that doesn't accept his distro isn't stable, because like, it's changing every week, and it's that goal |
| 01:38 |
sparqz |
one of you prefers arch...the other not get over it |
| 01:38 |
exio4 |
s/archlinux/& user/ |
| 01:38 |
acerspyro |
I just don't like Ubuntu |
| 01:38 |
Arch-TK |
exio4: It's not stable, but it definitely _does not break every update_ |
| 01:38 |
exio4 |
Archlinux IS meant to be like that |
| 01:38 |
Arch-TK |
it rarely breaks |
| 01:38 |
sparqz |
so about that minetest..... |
| 01:38 |
Arch-TK |
in fact, despite the fact that it's "unstable" it's surprisingly stable. |
| 01:39 |
acerspyro |
"unstable" is just to be safe from people like exio4 |
| 01:39 |
exio4 |
dat etilist user |
| 01:39 |
exio4 |
I can understand you though, I was like that 3~ years ago |
| 01:39 |
exio4 |
:P so dw |
| 01:40 |
exio4 |
Arch-TK: saying Archlinux doesn't need to be taken care of in relation to a distro that doesn't change, is a bit like arguing how red can blue be |
| 01:41 |
Arch-TK |
Define "taken care of" |
| 01:42 |
exio4 |
in this case, needing to re-configure things, changing configs that were working before, etc, remember, for a single home server, it doesn't really matter, while managing more than a few servers, having stuff that you know you can just upgrade and have previous configs working is a really cool thing |
| 01:42 |
exio4 |
yeah, Archlinux is _meant_ to be like that |
| 01:42 |
exio4 |
that is _why_ it doesn't make sense to use in those environments |
| 01:43 |
Arch-TK |
Name a distribution out there which you can safely keep running non stop for a year without a single bit of user input, and I'll call you a liar. Archlinux isn't this, but any distribution requires some user input, some require less than others, archlinux doesn't require very much when you set it up to work. There will be a time when some package breaks something and you'll have to intervene, and you might |
| 01:43 |
Arch-TK |
not have to do that on any other distribution, but then there will be a time when there's a CVE regarding software running on your machine and you WILL have to intervene, and so far, the amount of times I've had to intervene due to CVEs has been more than the amount of times I've had to intervene because of broken packages. |
| 01:43 |
acerspyro |
Arch-TK: Any distro |
| 01:43 |
acerspyro |
Just leave the computer shut down |
| 01:44 |
exio4 |
Arch-TK: debian stable, I bet you can make it auto-upgrade on cron 8) |
| 01:44 |
Arch-TK |
I've not had to reconfigure anything unless I wanted to change something so far... |
| 01:44 |
Arch-TK |
You can make arch auto-upgrade on a systemd timer / cron |
| 01:44 |
exio4 |
dat tautology, "unless I am using default, I haven't used defaults" |
| 01:44 |
exio4 |
uh, broken english |
| 01:44 |
exio4 |
re-phrase that until it makes sense |
| 01:45 |
Arch-TK |
exio4: Right, you're claiming that on a working config I'll have to change things every now and again. |
| 01:45 |
Arch-TK |
I've not had to do that. |
| 01:45 |
Arch-TK |
I've only ever had to do that when I've personally had a reason to want something to work differently. |
| 01:45 |
Arch-TK |
changing a config and wanting to change something are two different things. |
| 01:45 |
Arch-TK |
when you want to change something, you change a config. |
| 01:46 |
exio4 |
when you upgrade that package, you probably need to check what changed, because stuff changes over time |
| 01:46 |
thaostra |
Arch-TK, You're talking about robustness. Stability isn't about whether software breaks, rather it's that APIs and ABIs will have assurances that they won't break. The kernel is very stable because the developers do what they can to not break userspace compatibility, so I can reliably swap kernels and not experience regressions. All of the other components however don't follow this strict practice, even glibc which is the most |
| 01:46 |
thaostra |
important core library in the system, so distros target specific versions with each release because otherwise workflows WILL break left and right and developers will need to repackage. Arch has a mindset of being on the bleeding edge, and it's great at it, but other distros are oriented around keeping things the same because things not breaking is really nice in of itself. |
| 01:46 |
Arch-TK |
yes, and it would on your auto-upgrade distro too... eventually. |
| 01:46 |
exio4 |
unless you just leave like that and it bites you after three upgrades, because you setting was using deprecated stuff |
| 01:46 |
Arch-TK |
unless you're trying to tell me that they roll back changes which could change configs. |
| 01:46 |
Arch-TK |
or automatically fix your configs for you. |
| 01:46 |
Arch-TK |
but once again, I've not experienced any updates that needed a config change. |
| 01:47 |
exio4 |
have a distro version where the package only gets security updates, and you won't need to change the config |
| 01:47 |
Arch-TK |
not to say that it's not possible of course |
| 01:47 |
Arch-TK |
but that doesn't prevent your distro's configs from changing either. |
| 01:47 |
acerspyro |
Arch-TK: ever tried openSUSE? just like that |
| 01:47 |
exio4 |
I don't understand what you are talking about |
| 01:48 |
Arch-TK |
thaostra: But none of the archlinux packages are allowed to break by a major change like that. |
| 01:48 |
exio4 |
they still change |
| 01:48 |
Arch-TK |
thaostra: If archlinux had a package which broke other packages because of changes within the interfaces of that package |
| 01:48 |
Arch-TK |
then there would be outrage |
| 01:48 |
Arch-TK |
This is why arch has maintainers, so that they know what they're doing. |
| 01:50 |
exio4 |
sure |
| 01:50 |
thaostra |
Arch-TK, Desktops like Gnome and KDE break things all the time with each release. |
| 01:50 |
Arch-TK |
You're simply over-exaggerating how unstable and in the way arch is, it's simply not, I am by no means the average user and by no means do I expect everything to always works, but so far, everything has worked almost 100% of the time, and the few times something broke, it has been an easy fix. |
| 01:50 |
acerspyro |
thaostra: But, but... |
| 01:50 |
acerspyro |
WHY????????????? |
| 01:50 |
Arch-TK |
thaostra: yes... |
| 01:50 |
Arch-TK |
thaostra: But that doesn't break arch... |
| 01:50 |
exio4 |
I use a rolling release distro for my desktop, and I "deal" with configuration changes |
| 01:51 |
Arch-TK |
thaostra: Because arch doesn't throw broken stuff in the repositories. |
| 01:51 |
Arch-TK |
obviously broken (not slightly broken) |
| 01:51 |
acerspyro |
Arch-TK: I remember, before I switched from Arch, my KDE settings would reset everytime I logged out. Everything was owned by me, readable and writable and, if needed, executable... |
| 01:51 |
Arch-TK |
acerspyro: I think you did something very wrong there. |
| 01:51 |
thaostra |
Arch-TK, Again, you're confusing robustness with stability. The users workflow breaks. Extensions break, and new UI changes are made |
| 01:52 |
acerspyro |
I'm a bit of a stuntman |
| 01:52 |
acerspyro |
idk wtf I did :D |
| 01:52 |
Arch-TK |
I wouldn't consider UI changes "stability" |
| 01:52 |
Arch-TK |
extensions don't break unless they're outside the repositories, in which case, it's not arch's problem, "user workflow breaks" in what way? |
| 01:52 |
acerspyro |
Arch-TK: Nope, but it still needs to stay usable. |
| 01:52 |
thaostra |
Then you need to rethink what it means to be stable |
| 01:52 |
acerspyro |
workflow-side |
| 01:53 |
thaostra |
Do you consider a library that changes its interface with each update stable? |
| 01:53 |
Arch-TK |
Of course not, but then arch doesn't shove that library into an environment of packages which don't work with it. |
| 01:53 |
Arch-TK |
If packages depend on that package, it waits for those packages to update to use the new interface. |
| 01:54 |
thaostra |
Okay, so why is a user interface any different? It's how a user is able to get something meaningful from their computer usage, like calling a library to return something meaningful |
| 01:54 |
Arch-TK |
If your system is using only repository packages, and even aur packages, it is very unlikely to break from an update. |
| 01:54 |
Arch-TK |
a user interface doesn't require rewriting code |
| 01:55 |
Arch-TK |
it just requires a user, a human being, to adapt |
| 01:55 |
exio4 |
I remember the python -> python3 change |
| 01:55 |
Arch-TK |
that's nowhere near as difficult as having to rewrite code which uses an interface |
| 01:55 |
Arch-TK |
humans are designed to change |
| 01:55 |
exio4 |
defaulting /usr/bin/python to py3 instead of py2 |
| 01:55 |
exio4 |
half of aur broke down, some few packages in the main repository took a little bit to upgrade too |
| 01:56 |
exio4 |
('half' is a big number there, not literally half) |
| 01:56 |
Arch-TK |
exio4: Arch is also not windows, which is why software which assumed /usr/bin/python was python2 simply weren't doing it right |
| 01:56 |
Arch-TK |
also, aur packages are simply not official. |
| 01:56 |
thaostra |
Arch-TK> it just requires a user, a human being, to adapt <- It requires the user to adapt if the user doesn't have a choice. Lots of people prefer using what they're familiar with, because having to relearn workflows with a new release is a pain in the ass |
| 01:56 |
exio4 |
don't move the goalpost again |
| 01:56 |
Arch-TK |
If the aur package is packaging software in the documented standard way, and the software isn't written by lazy monkeys, then things will most likely work. |
| 01:57 |
Arch-TK |
I'm not moving any goalposts, the AUR is _not_ official. |
| 01:57 |
Arch-TK |
That's simply it. |
| 01:57 |
exio4 |
Arch-TK: "humans are designed to change", that opinion changes when working with more than a few servers, where spending 10 minutes with every one of them wastes 4 hours |
| 01:58 |
Arch-TK |
exio4: If you actually work with servers you would know that once you have a solution for one, you can easily package it into a fix for all. |
| 01:58 |
exio4 |
why did I even need to spend time with those, though |
| 01:58 |
Arch-TK |
I highly doubt you go through the entire debugging process on 20 machines every time if you know what the problem is once. |
| 01:58 |
Arch-TK |
because you've decided that you're maintaining servers. |
| 01:59 |
exio4 |
also, most solutions aren't just a script, different servers have different configs |
| 01:59 |
Arch-TK |
I already told you that arch is not for servers. |
| 01:59 |
exio4 |
well, I started this argument when you said you were using Archlinux in your server and I said it was insane |
| 01:59 |
exio4 |
so I think I am done |
| 01:59 |
Arch-TK |
You're arguing against something I never said. I explicitly said that arch isn't stable, but is surprisingly stable despite that. |
| 02:00 |
Trixar_za |
What does the creative priv do? |
| 02:00 |
Arch-TK |
That wasn't queue to assume that I meant: "Use arch for your high stability applications." |
| 02:00 |
Arch-TK |
exio4: I'm using it on _my_ _personal_ _server_ |
| 02:00 |
Arch-TK |
for _my_ _personal_ _usage_ |
| 02:00 |
Arch-TK |
in a _non_ _high_ _stability_ _requiring_ situation |
| 02:00 |
thaostra |
A grand total of _one_ server |
| 02:01 |
Arch-TK |
two, in fact. |
| 02:01 |
thaostra |
_two_ servers |
| 02:01 |
Arch-TK |
yes _two_ |
| 02:01 |
Arch-TK |
maybe we need __**two**__ |
| 02:01 |
Trixar_za |
and _your_ and idiot that _uses_ _these_ _too much_ |
| 02:01 |
Trixar_za |
an* |
| 02:01 |
Arch-TK |
"your and idiot" |
| 02:01 |
Trixar_za |
IRC isn't Markdown |
| 02:02 |
Arch-TK |
markdown is designed for allowing text to be easily readable both in plain text format and processed html format |
| 02:02 |
Arch-TK |
that means that markdown is perfect for irc |
| 02:02 |
exio4 |
uh, why not use mirc colors? |
| 02:03 |
Trixar_za |
or you know, actual mIRC codes |
| 02:03 |
exio4 |
I'd argue that 4Something is stable |
| 02:03 |
Trixar_za |
like this |
| 02:03 |
Arch-TK |
Because it takes effort. |
| 02:03 |
exio4 |
I'd guess your IRC client has got a keybind for it |
| 02:03 |
Arch-TK |
It does. |
| 02:03 |
Trixar_za |
Yeah, pressing Ctrl+B and Ctrl+K is really less work than typing extra _ and * |
| 02:04 |
Arch-TK |
Trixar_za: there are no such keybindings on weechat. |
| 02:04 |
exio4 |
ctrl-c |
| 02:04 |
Arch-TK |
Yes. |
| 02:04 |
exio4 |
ctrl-b, etc |
| 02:04 |
Arch-TK |
And then a colour code |
| 02:04 |
Arch-TK |
once again, more effort |
| 02:04 |
exio4 |
I am using weechat |
| 02:04 |
Arch-TK |
ctrl-b doesn't work |
| 02:04 |
Arch-TK |
asd |
| 02:04 |
exio4 |
Arch-TK: add replacements |
| 02:04 |
Arch-TK |
didn't work |
| 02:04 |
Arch-TK |
Still effort. |
| 02:04 |
exio4 |
Arch-TK: works for me |
| 02:05 |
Arch-TK |
You're using the development version of weechat... and you're complaining about stability. |
| 02:06 |
exio4 |
ad hominem 8) |
| 02:06 |
Arch-TK |
Sure... Sure... I'll install the dev version too. |
| 02:06 |
Arch-TK |
That's not ad hominem. |
| 02:06 |
exio4 |
also, this is a container, inside a debian stable, with the unstable bits of my desktop |
| 02:07 |
exio4 |
Trixar_za: I haven't heard of a 'creative' priv |
| 02:07 |
Arch-TK |
So, I temporarily switched over to the dev version from my friend's repository. |
| 02:07 |
Arch-TK |
And it didn't like my config. |
| 02:08 |
exio4 |
those keybinds have been in weechat for a long time |
| 02:08 |
Arch-TK |
Right... |
| 02:08 |
Trixar_za |
exio4: Me too. But apparently it's new since I just gave somebody all and 'creative' was one of them. |
| 02:08 |
exio4 |
I remember using it with 0.3.2, if my memory doesn't fail |
| 02:08 |
Arch-TK |
I'm using 1.1.1 and they definitely don't work. |
| 02:08 |
exio4 |
Trixar_za: maybe a mod? :/ |
| 02:08 |
Trixar_za |
Could be |
| 02:08 |
exio4 |
Arch-TK: /key missing ? |
| 02:09 |
Arch-TK |
Nope. |
| 02:09 |
Trixar_za |
Might depend on the terminal he's using |
| 02:09 |
Arch-TK |
I'm using termite. |
| 02:09 |
exio4 |
ah, right |
| 02:11 |
|
Wuzzy joined #minetest |
| 02:11 |
Arch-TK |
In any case, using -c too much on the channels I frequent is generally frowned upon. |
| 02:12 |
Arch-TK |
So I'm not about to bolding all my text |
| 02:12 |
acerspyro |
Wut |
| 02:12 |
Arch-TK |
So I am not about to gobolding all my text |
| 02:12 |
exio4 |
well, this channel hasn't got +c, so you should adapt to this channel flags |
| 02:12 |
Arch-TK |
no +c = -c |
| 02:13 |
Arch-TK |
#archlinux also doesn't have +c |
| 02:13 |
exio4 |
yes, I know -+c is -cc |
| 02:13 |
exio4 |
yes, I know -+c is -c |
| 02:13 |
Arch-TK |
if I went around with bold in there, I would get shouted at. |
| 02:13 |
Arch-TK |
But, in any case, It's now 2am |
| 02:13 |
exio4 |
that maybe a good hint you're abusing it |
| 02:13 |
Arch-TK |
I'm going. |
| 02:13 |
exio4 |
see you. |
| 02:14 |
Trixar_za |
You'd get shouted at for using Markdown too |
| 02:14 |
Arch-TK |
yes, that's what I said, I wouldn't want to be using it in there, which is why I use markdown. |
| 02:14 |
Arch-TK |
Trixar_za: By a single person who can't spell "you're" correctly. |
| 02:14 |
Arch-TK |
:) |
| 02:14 |
Arch-TK |
exio4: THAT is ad hominem |
| 02:14 |
Trixar_za |
It's 4am |
| 02:14 |
exio4 |
yes Arch-TK |
| 02:14 |
Trixar_za |
I dare you to do better at 4am with 4 hours of sleep :P |
| 02:14 |
exio4 |
I know you know that we know and something like that |
| 02:15 |
exio4 |
Trixar_za: archlinux didn't let you sleep? don't worry |
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est31 |
cool there is actually something like do{ } while in lua |
| 03:12 |
VanessaE |
while (foo); do bar; baz; blah; end :) |
| 03:13 |
VanessaE |
more or less the same as in bashj |
| 03:13 |
VanessaE |
-j |
| 03:17 |
exio4 |
recursion to the rescue |
| 03:21 |
est31 |
VanessaE: no its actual almost the same https://github.com/minetest-technic/technic/blob/d9bf9830b0d72837000e8a5dbf05536881eab42b/technic/machines/switching_station.lua#L158-162 |
| 03:21 |
est31 |
http://www.lua.org/pil/4.3.3.html |
| 03:23 |
VanessaE |
oh I forgot about that way of doing it |
| 03:33 |
gv1222 |
patriots |
| 03:35 |
VanessaE |
sucks to be a seahawks fan I guess |
| 03:35 |
VanessaE |
(idc about football, least of all the superbowl :P ) |
| 03:39 |
thaostra |
I'm just content that the Pats won |
| 03:42 |
est31 |
In lua, all indexes begin with 1 right? |
| 03:43 |
VanessaE |
yes |
| 03:43 |
VanessaE |
well, by default |
| 03:43 |
VanessaE |
but you can explicitly set something to 0 also |
| 03:44 |
est31 |
is it a problem when my code assumes 1 based indexes for technic mod? |
| 03:44 |
VanessaE |
no |
| 03:44 |
VanessaE |
no one's gonna set a 0 index unless there's a particularly good reason for it |
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est31 |
can I specify metadata directly in the call to minetest.place_node, or do I have to get the metadata for that node first? |
| 05:18 |
sofar |
VanessaE: when I ported my plugin over, I had the hardest time to make the modulus math work for 1-based arrays .... arrays should just start at zero (gave up and based it to zero in the end) |
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olddog60 |
anyone know if the master server list isn't updating properly? |
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MinetestBot |
[git] kwolekr -> minetest/minetest: Create minidump on fatal Win32 exceptions 43f1022 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/43f102271dd3dc64b167ee305be5061976bd41d6 (2015-02-02T01:39:17-05:00) |
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MinetestBot |
[git] kwolekr -> minetest/minetest: Fix some MSVC-specific warnings and add debug path as an MSVC directory 0118c11 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/0118c111e8f12602b03cee8deb4c86f9b9e28cf3 (2015-02-02T02:01:13-05:00) |
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Krock |
moin |
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VanessaE |
hi |
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Krock |
hi |
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redstonecraftpl |
hi |
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Caleneledh |
When you register an ore, is there a way to have mapgen only create it near specifc nodes? |
| 10:59 |
Krock |
nope |
| 10:59 |
Krock |
you only can specify in which nodes it should generate |
| 10:59 |
Krock |
that's mostly default:stone |
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Neolink |
why the dreambilder is loaded so long |
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Neolink |
Will it happen one at one |
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Caleneledh |
Hmm, that could still work. /quit |
| 12:15 |
Caleneledh |
oops. |
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vitaminx |
hi everyone, does anyone experienced that an account got hacked on his server? i mean really hacked, not with social engineering |
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Krock |
vitaminx, nope |
| 14:14 |
shadowzone |
vitaminx, you mean code hacked? |
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| 14:31 |
vitaminx |
shadowzone: i mean like someone is using a modified client to access user passwords |
| 14:31 |
vitaminx |
i have some strange activity going on on my server, and it doesnt look like social engineering but real hacking to me |
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| 14:44 |
twoelk |
some unofficial mobile clients where able to cheat in strange ways like having privs they should not ... or so the legend goes |
| 14:48 |
vitaminx |
twoelk: yes, i read about that - but mine is different |
| 14:49 |
vitaminx |
people were apparently retreiving passwords of account of other players with a modified client - they were talking about it in PM |
| 14:49 |
vitaminx |
they mentioned a D.T.C. client |
| 14:50 |
vitaminx |
but googling it reveals nothing |
| 14:50 |
vitaminx |
and for me it seems strange that passwords or password hashes would ever been send or stored on the client |
| 14:51 |
vitaminx |
is there someone here who knows how minetest authenticates? i could give more details |
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vitaminx |
ok i try in #minetest-dev |
| 14:57 |
oleastre |
If people are using an unsafe client (evil modified one) this one cans do whatever it wants with the entered password/hash (store, or send them anywhere) |
| 14:57 |
oleastre |
Otherwise, there is also a possible attack: if you use the same login/password on every servers, one server admin can reuse your password hash on another server with a modified client. |
| 14:57 |
oleastre |
see https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=10960&hilit=password |
| 15:00 |
Krock |
an additional thing would be to use the account creation time to has the password a 2nd time |
| 15:01 |
Krock |
this prevents from server admins who abouse their auth.txt |
| 15:01 |
Krock |
*abuse |
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| 15:01 |
vitaminx |
Krock: sorry I didn't get what you mean :P |
| 15:01 |
Krock |
just a mindblow. what do you think about it, oleastre? |
| 15:02 |
Krock |
vitaminx, you send a hashed password to the server and the server re-hashes it with the account creation time as salt |
| 15:02 |
Krock |
double hash |
| 15:04 |
Krock |
no-one signs up at the same time on several servers |
| 15:05 |
shadowzone |
So, should I be chaging my passwords? |
| 15:06 |
vitaminx |
i think its a good idea to have different passwords per server |
| 15:06 |
shadowzone |
Okay, so I /should/ be safe? |
| 15:07 |
shadowzone |
As I moderate practically every server out there. |
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oleastre |
Krock: the problem is that if some one modify it's server to not do that double hash, you get the same problem. |
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vitaminx |
i'll poke a bit around in #minetest-dev, i'll let you know if there's smth. important |
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Krock |
oleastre, hmm yes |
| 15:09 |
oleastre |
The client should send different hash per server. But, as discussed on the forum, the problem is to generate in a consistent way a different salt per server. |
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oleastre |
Thinking about this, I just had an idea... will post it on the forum :) |
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| 17:38 |
rubenwardy |
Hi all! |
| 17:38 |
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| 17:39 |
rubenwardy |
I'd like people to test the open/save file dialogs in https://github.com/rubenwardy/NodeBoxEditor/tree/dev |
| 17:39 |
rubenwardy |
I can't supply a windows build, though |
| 17:40 |
rubenwardy |
(NBE now uses native file browser dialogs) |
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| 17:48 |
PilzAdam |
rubenwardy, why does it work with Irrlicht 1.7.2? |
| 17:48 |
PilzAdam |
docs say it doesn't, exe says it does |
| 17:48 |
rubenwardy |
Huh? |
| 17:49 |
rubenwardy |
You can use Irrlicht 1.7.2, but some features are disabled |
| 17:49 |
PilzAdam |
ah |
| 17:49 |
rubenwardy |
ie: exporting to text area |
| 17:49 |
rubenwardy |
Although I disabled that in dev, and will re add latter. |
| 17:50 |
PilzAdam |
file save dialog works for KDE |
| 17:50 |
rubenwardy |
Yay |
| 17:52 |
rubenwardy |
I'm going to experiment with using the Blender API to combine the boxes into a single mesh when exporting. |
| 17:52 |
rubenwardy |
(optionally) |
| 17:57 |
Kalabasa |
Has anyone ever used the bone functions of ObjectRef? |
| 18:03 |
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| 18:09 |
Caleneledh |
ERROR[ServerThread]: suspiciously large amount of objects detected. Can lava cause that error, if there is too much of it? |
| 18:10 |
rubenwardy |
No, lava isn't an object |
| 18:10 |
sfan5 |
no |
| 18:10 |
rubenwardy |
You are looking at dropped items or mobs |
| 18:10 |
Caleneledh |
Hmm, then that shouldn't be possible in the world I in. I have no mobs enable, and haven't dropped any items. |
| 18:12 |
twoelk |
no technic/tubes/windmills or similar? |
| 18:12 |
twoelk |
or bees |
| 18:13 |
Caleneledh |
nope, the only mods enabled are default, creative and my own mod I'm working on. That doesn't create any objects. |
| 18:15 |
VanessaE |
Caleneledh: back up the world and make it available for download |
| 18:15 |
VanessaE |
we need a copy! |
| 18:15 |
VanessaE |
finally someone has this error on a pristine world |
| 18:16 |
VanessaE |
rubenwardy: use my conversion script instead ;) |
| 18:16 |
Caleneledh |
I wouldn't say it was pristing. I have been making an errupting volcano mode, and that required a few changes to default. |
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| 18:16 |
Caleneledh |
s/pristing/pristine/ |
| 18:17 |
rubenwardy |
VanessaE, the Linux only one? |
| 18:17 |
VanessaE |
Caleneledh: pristine in the sense that no mods are creating any entities |
| 18:17 |
VanessaE |
rubenwardy: yes ;) |
| 18:17 |
rubenwardy |
:S |
| 18:17 |
Caleneledh |
Ahh ok. |
| 18:17 |
rubenwardy |
Some people actually use Windows, for some reason. I don't |
| 18:17 |
VanessaE |
rubenwardy: I'm only kidding anyway :) |
| 18:18 |
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| 18:18 |
VanessaE |
rubenwardy: one thing that would be enormously useful is hidden surface removal when exporting |
| 18:18 |
VanessaE |
e.g. export a hollow model, not just the nodeboxes |
| 18:18 |
VanessaE |
but that would be rather hard I guess |
| 18:18 |
Caleneledh |
What file would you need? |
| 18:18 |
rubenwardy |
Yeah, that's what I'm aiming for. A way of exporting an optimised mesh |
| 18:19 |
VanessaE |
Caleneledh: ZIP up the whole world, minus auth.txt |
| 18:19 |
rubenwardy |
I'm going to use Blender's API if I do do that, as I don't know complicate 3D mathematics |
| 18:19 |
Caleneledh |
Ok will do. |
| 18:19 |
Krock |
rubenwardy, why is XXF86VM_LIBRARY requires for your NBE? |
| 18:19 |
Krock |
*required |
| 18:19 |
rubenwardy |
Irrlicht |
| 18:20 |
Krock |
irrlicht doesn't need it |
| 18:20 |
rubenwardy |
Irrlicht is the only dependency |
| 18:20 |
rubenwardy |
Huh? Weird |
| 18:20 |
Krock |
I successfully compiled bzip2, libpng14 and zlib128 now I fail at this weird stuff |
| 18:21 |
rubenwardy |
are you following this? https://github.com/rubenwardy/NodeBoxEditor/blob/dev/docs/developers.md |
| 18:21 |
rubenwardy |
or are you on windows? |
| 18:21 |
Krock |
windoze |
| 18:21 |
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| 18:21 |
rubenwardy |
Just download Irrlicht 1.8 from their website |
| 18:22 |
rubenwardy |
That **should** work |
| 18:22 |
Krock |
it still requires XXF86VM_LIBRARY |
| 18:22 |
Krock |
CMake Error: The following variables are used in this project, but they are set to NOTFOUND. |
| 18:22 |
rubenwardy |
Oh, you're using CMake |
| 18:22 |
rubenwardy |
I use VS on Windows |
| 18:22 |
Krock |
yeah. cmakelists.txt is thought to be used by cmake |
| 18:22 |
Calinou |
but VS uses CMake? |
| 18:22 |
Krock |
^ |
| 18:22 |
Calinou |
CMake is a build system, not a compiler |
| 18:22 |
Calinou |
also VS is evil (-: |
| 18:22 |
rubenwardy |
I don't use CMake in VS |
| 18:23 |
rubenwardy |
Try commenting out all the references to XX..., it might be a Linux only thing |
| 18:23 |
Calinou |
by the way, more IDE project files could be supplied |
| 18:23 |
Calinou |
like Code::Blocks |
| 18:23 |
rubenwardy |
It was added to stop a build error on some platforms |
| 18:23 |
Krock |
I googled a bit and yes- it's linux only |
| 18:23 |
Calinou |
nvm |
| 18:23 |
Calinou |
CMake can generate these |
| 18:23 |
Calinou |
I keep forgetting |
| 18:25 |
Krock |
compiling.. |
| 18:25 |
Krock |
what a load of warnings and errors |
| 18:26 |
Krock |
..\NodeBoxEditor\src\FileFormat\Lua.cpp(54): error C2018: unknown sign '0x40' |
| 18:26 |
rubenwardy |
Wow |
| 18:26 |
rubenwardy |
Sounds like encoding errors |
| 18:27 |
Calinou |
CRLF vs LF? |
| 18:27 |
Krock |
..\NodeBoxEditor\src\FileFormat\MTC.cpp(18): error C2065: 'NBE_DESCR_VERSION': undeclared identifier |
| 18:27 |
Krock |
^ same error goes for Lua.cpp(54) |
| 18:28 |
Krock |
at least I got some new compiled libraries :D |
| 18:29 |
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| 18:29 |
rubenwardy |
That will be todo with the CMake configuration |
| 18:30 |
Krock |
ah and I ad to rename conf_cmake.hpp.in -> conf_cmake.hpp so I was able to compile it |
| 18:30 |
Krock |
*had |
| 18:30 |
Calinou |
did someone get to build Aseprite on Windows? |
| 18:31 |
Calinou |
tried on failed, missing Allegro files :/ |
| 18:31 |
Krock |
if someone fails, everyone will fail |
| 18:31 |
Calinou |
not necessarily |
| 18:32 |
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| 18:33 |
rubenwardy |
My work flow is: 1) Develop it using Linux 2) Hack it to work on Windows 3) Hack it to work on Linux, due to Windows hacks 4) goto 2 |
| 18:33 |
Krock |
interesting |
| 18:33 |
Caleneledh |
VanessaE: Here you go https://www.dropbox.com/s/ioxvo5w4jdcisat/volcano_world.tar.gz?dl=0 |
| 18:34 |
Krock |
I got a special trick to compile projects without cmakelists.txt. Create a dummy text, run "dir *.c", add those as sources and run cmake then compile the complete stuff |
| 18:34 |
Krock |
costs time but it's earier than messing around with makefiles |
| 18:35 |
Krock |
*easier |
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| 18:37 |
rubenwardy |
0x40 is @ according to the ASCII table. It was to do with the config, it seems. |
| 18:38 |
VanessaE |
Caleneledh: upload it somewhere more permanent and post a link to it here: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1426 |
| 18:38 |
VanessaE |
(best place I can think of anyway) |
| 18:42 |
rubenwardy |
OMFG. Seriously. Why all separate comments? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hOyqPUpBOc |
| 18:42 |
rubenwardy |
:( |
| 18:43 |
VanessaE |
eh? |
| 18:43 |
VanessaE |
oh |
| 18:43 |
VanessaE |
just someone being an idiot :) |
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| 18:53 |
rubenwardy |
Urgh. What state of mind was I in when I wrote the dialog system? |
| 18:56 |
VanessaE |
no comment ;) |
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| 18:57 |
VanessaE |
(actually it's not THAT bad) |
| 18:58 |
rubenwardy |
The code structure I was talking about. The whole deleting itself. |
| 18:58 |
rubenwardy |
It's not that bad, other than it's a segfault nightmare |
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| 19:41 |
Krock |
success! |
| 19:43 |
shadowzone |
What'd you do? |
| 19:44 |
Krock |
compiled rubenwardy's NBE with MSVC |
| 19:44 |
Krock |
but it required some ugly hacks |
| 19:44 |
Krock |
for example, the editor is now at version v1.1.1.1 |
| 19:44 |
Krock |
a dummy input |
| 19:45 |
rubenwardy |
Lol |
| 19:45 |
Krock |
but it runs fine :D |
| 19:45 |
rubenwardy |
I will fix before I release 0.7.1 |
| 19:45 |
rubenwardy |
File open/save? |
| 19:46 |
Krock |
1 min |
| 19:46 |
rubenwardy |
Mostly talking about whether the file browser works |
| 19:46 |
Krock |
works but the texture is white |
| 19:46 |
Krock |
after re-loading |
| 19:47 |
Krock |
btw, can I somehow rotate the perspective view? |
| 19:48 |
Krock |
rubenwardy, also the icon is not included in the executable. I'm not sure how I could add it |
| 19:49 |
rubenwardy |
Try moving bin/nodeboxeditor to nodeboxeditor.exe |
| 19:50 |
Krock |
huh |
| 19:57 |
rubenwardy |
Does it work? |
| 19:57 |
Krock |
sorry, I don't get what you mean |
| 19:58 |
rubenwardy |
Cut and paste the nodeboxeditor from bin/ to /. In debug, probably. |
| 19:58 |
rubenwardy |
*.exe |
| 19:58 |
rubenwardy |
Using the explorer |
| 19:58 |
rubenwardy |
folder explorer |
| 19:58 |
rubenwardy |
ie: outside of VS |
| 19:58 |
rubenwardy |
:S |
| 20:00 |
Krock |
http://pastebin.com/VUdx6m88 |
| 20:01 |
rubenwardy |
Oh, okay |
| 20:01 |
rubenwardy |
It reads the icon from Irrlicht.ico |
| 20:01 |
rubenwardy |
Which you've dropped somewhere |
| 20:01 |
Krock |
it's where cmakelists.txt is |
| 20:02 |
rubenwardy |
Yeah. You need to move it to the same folder as nodeboxeditor.exe |
| 20:02 |
rubenwardy |
It changes the icon when the editor is running |
| 20:02 |
rubenwardy |
To change the exe icon in the folder system you do some complicated thing with resources |
| 20:02 |
rubenwardy |
!g microsoft visual studio c++ set executable icon |
| 20:02 |
MinetestBot |
rubenwardy: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2393863/set-an-exe-icon-for-my-program |
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| 20:03 |
rubenwardy |
gtg |
| 20:03 |
Krock |
k bai |
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| 20:04 |
Krock |
should I upload the complete nodeboxeditor? |
| 20:04 |
rubenwardy |
Coming soon TM: https://github.com/rubenwardy/NodeBoxEditor/blob/dev/src/minetest.hpp |
| 20:05 |
rubenwardy |
All that has been added so far is the file browser. That doesn't justify a release for me, but you can distribute if you like. |
| 20:05 |
Krock |
k |
| 20:06 |
rubenwardy |
Also, the dev branch is guaranteed to be super buggy :P |
| 20:07 |
Krock |
I'll add that to my post |
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| 20:17 |
_Esteban |
hello |
| 20:17 |
Krock |
hi |
| 20:18 |
_Esteban |
how are your servers going? |
| 20:19 |
Krock |
they're fine but the router isn't |
| 20:23 |
_Esteban |
I see that the new version was released a time ago... I wonder if there is new features worked on :P |
| 20:38 |
alket |
how to check if server is up with MinetestBot |
| 20:38 |
MinetestBot |
[git] Sapier at GMX dot net -> minetest/minetest: Fix getCraftRecipe returing wrong reciep due to way to unspecific output matching d902bd3 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/d902bd31c4b9e8c2a0d85af831a5a23f827a48a2 (2015-02-02T21:32:23+01:00) |
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Krock |
alket, !up <ip/address> <port> |
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Arch-TK |
internet protocol / address ? |
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Arch-TK |
maybe you mean <IP address/FQDN> |
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