IRC log for #minetest, 2014-02-08

Time	Nick	Message
00:00	Jordach	VanessaE, CAPES
00:00	Jordach	GODAMN CAPES
00:00	Jordach	^ clap clap clap
00:01		ShadowNinja joined #minetest
00:03	VanessaE	now what about Taoki's animation fix?
00:04	Taoki	Obviously, I'm going to have to make it again :/
00:08	VanessaE	oh, too bad it can't somehow be merged the way code changes can
00:09	VanessaE	Jordach: about these capes..
00:09	VanessaE	Jordach: how exactly do they work?
00:09	VanessaE	aside from the location within the skin file
00:09	Jordach	VanessaE, AH
00:09	Jordach	fuck
00:09	VanessaE	is this some Minecraft standard?
00:09	Jordach	lemme make a magic post
00:09	VanessaE	I have of course seen the example skin file
00:10	VanessaE	or rather, the example given in the pull request
00:10	VanessaE	but I mean, is this something MC did that we're taking into account now?
00:10	Jordach	VanessaE, they don't allow custom capes
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00:12	VanessaE	hm
00:12	VanessaE	and we're just using an unused area of the existing skin format
00:14	VanessaE	I have a few skins in my set here that have imagery in the "cape" area though..
00:15	VanessaE	also
00:15	VanessaE	are you aware of those lower right four pixels?
00:16	VanessaE	they seem to have some use.
00:16	Jordach	https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?pid=128954#p128954
00:18	Jordach	addi is going to love this ;)
00:18	VanessaE	see above..........
00:18	Jordach	Taoki, once you get the upgraded animations, i'll have a crack at the 1.8 MC style skins
00:18	VanessaE	this wasn't adequately thought out.
00:18	Jordach	VanessaE, that or no custom capes
00:19	VanessaE	is there a way to turn the capes off?
00:19	Jordach	VanessaE, leave the red section completely alpha
00:19	Jordach	existing skins will not have capes
00:19	Taoki	Jordach: The fix is a simple one: Go in the Animations tab in Blender, select all key frames, press V, and choose "vector". This fixes the bad curves that mead to the animation problem, and is the correct animation style for that model.
00:19	VanessaE	I meant from a model standpoint.
00:19	Taoki	Anyone can do that and put the fix on GIT
00:20	Jordach	VanessaE, it's just a 12x8x1 (pixels)
00:20	VanessaE	head -> desk
00:20	Jordach	which is 6 faces
00:20	VanessaE	Jordach: you clearly did not test this with enough skins
00:21	VanessaE	ShadowNinja: ^^^^^^^^^ the capes thing will be a problem.....
00:21	Jordach	VanessaE, bullshit
00:21	Jordach	VanessaE, when 1.8 comes out: you will have shit hit the fan
00:21	VanessaE	Jordach: G*d damn it look for yourself
00:21	Jordach	because skin sizes BECOME 64X64
00:21	Taoki	God has become a swear word :3
00:21	VanessaE	http://minetest.digitalaudioconcepts.com/creative-survival-media/
00:21	VanessaE	Jordach: look at a random selection of player_* files from there ^^^^^
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00:22	Taoki	Jordach: However, I am also afraid that it will be either capes or the 1.8 clothing thingie or whatever was added
00:22		EvergreenTree joined #minetest
00:22	Taoki	I don't get why some wanted a caped model really... but well, it happened
00:22	VanessaE	Jordach: every one of those files is a raw, unedited Minecraft skin. 75% of them have something in your "cape" area that will not look right when used as a cape.
00:23	Jordach	VanessaE, imagemagick
00:23	VanessaE	Jordach: nope.avi
00:23	Jordach	VanessaE, 1.8 skin format: http://www.zimagez.com/zimage/screenshot-080214-002213.php
00:23	PilzAdam	Jordach, YOU BROKE EVERYTHING
00:23	VanessaE	you're violating the Minecraft skin format.
00:23	Jordach	so stifle good idea with the bad ones
00:23	VanessaE	and yeah, I've seen that new layered format. I don't care about ti right now.
00:23	Jordach	VanessaE, people will be asking for them soon
00:23	VanessaE	I'm talking about the skin files we can use right now
00:24	Jordach	VanessaE, manually fucking clean them (you get 1-5 a day)
00:24	VanessaE	it'd be easier if I just put the old player model in.
00:24	Jordach	then i just let shit hit the fan
00:24	Jordach	your players will be asking about said capes
00:25	VanessaE	or if you guys had though "hey, how about we make BOTH models available - with or without the cape"
00:25	VanessaE	oh dear G*d we can't do that! CHOICES! NO!"
00:25	Jordach	VanessaE, two textures or one
00:25	Jordach	i PULLED FUCKING TEETH on the santa hat
00:25	Jordach	it used a second texture which wasn't part of the actual skin
00:25	MinetestBot	GIT: Sapier at GMX dot net commited to minetest/minetest: Remove lots of dead code f4f98c9550 2014-02-07T12:39:45-08:00 http://git.io/oXv6qA
00:25	* VanessaE	facepalms
00:25	Taoki	I think capes should have waited. Until the new skin format thing could have been clarified. But I don't mean to judge... some wanted capes so yeah
00:25	VanessaE	why didn't anyone ask me?
00:26	Jordach	VanessaE, because you didn't host back then full time
00:26	Taoki	I don't get them myself
00:26	Jordach	and custom skins was limited to the skins mod
00:26	VanessaE	so back out the capes change now before it gets writtne into stone
00:26	VanessaE	written*
00:27	VanessaE	the cape should have been a separate file
00:27	Jordach	VanessaE, bitch and moan: give it a month and it'll be fine
00:27	VanessaE	it isn't that G*d damned difficult to load two images
00:27	Taoki	Ugh, no need to fight over this
00:27	Jordach	VanessaE, materials is a bitch to handle in irrlicht
00:27	VanessaE	Jordach, you're not the one who has to post process every G*d damned image that comes across now
00:27	Taoki	Jordach: Do capes use a different texture and a different material in the x file?
00:27	Jordach	Taoki, no
00:27	Jordach	they're part of the player skin
00:28	VanessaE	Taoki: no, they use an area in the minecraft skin that was reserved for some other use
00:28	Taoki	Ok. That's probably bad. Especially with 1.8 style skins
00:28	Taoki	One texture will likely not be able to hold both
00:28	Jordach	Taoki, well, if VanessaE gets a request for a 1.8 SKIN i might DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT
00:28	* Taoki	nods
00:28	VanessaE	I already brought this up a long time ago
00:29	VanessaE	the proper solution would have been two separate models - one with capes, one without.
00:29	Jordach	VanessaE, you think PilzAdam would allow 600kb used up for nothing
00:29	Taoki	Two models would have probably been very duplicative
00:29	Jordach	Taoki, i learned that with the separate gender models
00:29	Taoki	Cape can likely be removed by having alpha over it as well
00:29	Jordach	Taoki, the cape works just like the hat layer
00:30	Taoki	Jordach: Separate gender models wouldn't be needed at this simplicity. Except for the detailed model you made and shown me screenshots and animations of, there yeah
00:30	Jordach	Taoki, i meant keeping two models in sync with fixes
00:30	Taoki	Jordach: Oh, so no black will show over it for skins that didn't enable it, right?
00:30	* Taoki	nods
00:30	VanessaE	Taoki: 75% of the skin files in my library have something there already
00:30	Jordach	VanessaE, blame the skin artists
00:31	Jordach	we're depending on a format that will change at RANDOM
00:31	Taoki	Jordach: Then the only problem remains how to enable 1.8 skins. Because they use the same areas of the UV mapping as the cape. It will have to be one or the other
00:31	VanessaE	Jordach: these skins appear to contain algorithmic data in that area, not art.
00:31	VanessaE	in most cases.
00:31	Taoki	If capes are in, 1.8 skins probably never will be
00:31	Jordach	Taoki, i can do both with materials
00:31	Taoki	Personally, I don't care much about either. But it might be a hard choice
00:31	Jordach	but i will bitch about it
00:31	Taoki	Ah...
00:31	Taoki	Actually you're right
00:31	Taoki	Using different materials, and separately assigning a texture to each, would work
00:32	Jordach	irrlicht does support that
00:32	Jordach	but there's so much fucking bullshit attached in player side lua
00:32	Taoki	Yes. When I coded models I made sure Minetest does too
00:32	Jordach	you have to manually grant each player a second fucking texture
00:32	Jordach	if not: the cape will use the first texture in the series
00:32	Taoki	This could be good: First material would be normal player skin with clothes, second cape.
00:33	Jordach	Taoki, read my message with custom skins that don't support multi materials
00:33	Taoki	Jordach: It should work with two materials. Material 1 (current) is skin + hat + clothing (1.8.), second will be just cape
00:33	VanessaE	Jordach: look at this one please http://minetest.digitalaudioconcepts.com/creative-survival-media/player_cheapie.png
00:33	Taoki	ok
00:33	VanessaE	Jordach: look in the lower right corner.
00:33	VanessaE	see those four pixels? THAT is more common than not. and I doubt the skin artist put them there.
00:34	Jordach	VanessaE, what software was used
00:34	VanessaE	Jordach: beats me, some Minecraft skin editor I suppose
00:34	Jordach	if it's that shitty minecraft skins place causing it: you must fucking ban that shit
00:34	VanessaE	Jordach: I'm trying to tell you you CAN'T use that space, it's guaranteed to be filled with garbage in 75% of the skins out there
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00:34	Jordach	VanessaE, well then
00:35	Jordach	you fix the shitty handling of multiple materials in IRRLICHT
00:35	VanessaE	even my nice skin, the one with the purpose crop top? your capes model just gave me BARE SKIN for a cape :P
00:35	VanessaE	s/purpose/purple/
00:35	Jordach	VanessaE, back then it wasn't meant to be used with player_texutres
00:36	VanessaE	whats that got to do with anything?
00:36	VanessaE	player_textures vastly predates your capes.
00:36	Jordach	VanessaE, because zeg's mod was used more
00:36	VanessaE	so?
00:36	VanessaE	the skin format didn't change from one to the other
00:36	Jordach	i catered the more used item
00:37	Jordach	VanessaE, try moving forward without having to change a fundamental
00:37	Taoki	Only thing I strongly believe: If 1.8 skin support is added, make sure the clothes use the same material as the normal skin. The hat also uses it, so those should be the same file. If anything is to be separated, that should be the cape
00:38	VanessaE	Jordach: you knew that the skin format was Minecraft
00:38	Jordach	VanessaE, yes
00:38	VanessaE	you opted to try to wedge something in that was NOT from the Minecraft format
00:38	Jordach	i know that fucking thing very well
00:39	VanessaE	YOU screwed up :(
00:39	Jordach	VanessaE, then that's no different to me USING THE FUCKING SPARE PIXELS BETWEEN THE HAT AND THE HEAD
00:39	VanessaE	so come on man
00:39	VanessaE	just un-screw it
00:39	Taoki	Don't worry about it everyone... we'll find a way to fix them
00:40	VanessaE	just make it a separate image, and instead of fucking about with irrlicht materials - just load two images, combine them in memory before you pass it to irrlicht, and THEN USE IT
00:40	Jordach	you want me to fix it
00:40	VanessaE	jeez
00:40	Taoki	:(
00:40	Jordach	VanessaE, texture^texture2 doesn't work with player models
00:40	VanessaE	who said anything about using the ^ operator?
00:40	Taoki	VanessaE: I don't think that is possible. Or at least I don't know... I'm only aware of multiple materials being possible
00:41	Jordach	because that's what you exactly fucking said
00:41	Jordach	>just load two images, combine them in memory before you pass it to irrlicht, and THEN USE IT
00:41	Taoki	The problem is the scape and the 1.8 skins would both use the same areas of the UV map
00:41	VanessaE	no, I did not say that, Jordach
00:41	Taoki	Only separate images can fix that
00:41	VanessaE	yes, exactly Taoki
00:41	VanessaE	"separate images"
00:41	VanessaE	as in two separate files
00:41	Taoki	Yeah
00:42	VanessaE	loaded in and then joined together with good old fashioned image processing BEFORE YOU PASS IT to irrlicht
00:42	VanessaE	as in
00:42	Taoki	I must admit... for capes that might make some sense. Although... why not for clothing as well?
00:42	VanessaE	don't even let lua have it
00:42	VanessaE	well let lua have it too I guess
00:42	Taoki	Reason I'm saying this is, separate materials for normal skin and 1.8 cloth + hat would allow us to make clothing individually from chosen skin
00:42	VanessaE	but I mean, don't try to shoehorn it into the ^ operator
00:42	Taoki	Imagine selecting any skin, and being able to wear anything from a wardrobe on it
00:43	Taoki	Clothing and capes could do it both :)
00:43	VanessaE	it could be done with clothing, but as there is already a skin format that handles it, you don't need to
00:43	Jordach	not my fault you chose a borked engine and a badly designed skin format
00:43	VanessaE	but there is no skin format that has capes, you HAVE to handle them separately.
00:43	Taoki	Yeah. For this idea you'd need separate materials on clothing. But it would be easy
00:43	PilzAdam	VanessaE, actually, the ^ is operator combines 2 seperate textures before they are passed to Irrlicht
00:43	Jordach	easy in blender sense: difficult with an engine that is hard to work with
00:43	Jordach	(no really; i've tried multiple materials)
00:44	Taoki	Combining textures would likely not help. Because it's the areas of the UV amp that would be the problem
00:44	Taoki	**map
00:44	Jordach	you have two choices: BREAK AWAY FROM THAT MC DEPENDANCY, OR MAKE IRRLICHT BETTER with MATERIALS
00:44		us-0gb joined #minetest
00:45	VanessaE	PilzAdam: my point is to combine them in a context that's separate from the ^ operator - in the same way that different textures for a node are in separate contexts from one another, compared to multiple textures joined^together^with^carets on one particular face.
00:45	VanessaE	but of course it's a different piece of code that handles it
00:45	Taoki	Materials exist, and IMO they wouldn't be a bad choice here
00:45	Jordach	Taoki, dynamic assignment of combined materials will go wrong
00:46	Jordach	especially on VE-*
00:46	VanessaE	Jordach: materials then.
00:46	PilzAdam	meh, just remove the capes
00:46	Taoki	I'm actually loving this idea now: Have a player skin selection system, and a wardrobe system. Normally, any player model will use the same texture for the clothing material (current behavior with one material). But using the wardrobe, you can use the clothing of any other skin separately, to dress up however you want :)
00:47	Jordach	Taoki, you'd have to build hundreds of skin parts
00:47	Taoki	PilzAdam: Personally I'd say the same. But some people want them from what I hear
00:47	PilzAdam	bye
00:47	Jordach	i could build a proof of concept - but with you lot complaining that it breaks something pisses me off
00:48	Jordach	grow up and fucking get used to it
00:48	EvergreenTree	I didn't even know the place where the cape is is used for anything else
00:48	VanessaE	I would honestly have to move to revert the capes until they can be implemented using a separate file for the cape.
00:49	EvergreenTree	Having seperate files for skins is actually a good diea
00:49	EvergreenTree	*idea
00:49	VanessaE	and I thought we already HAD the materials thing figured out??
00:49	Jordach	i agree on the pick and choose
00:49	VanessaE	did not someone already FIX that ages ago?
00:49	Jordach	VanessaE, reverted in git
00:49	VanessaE	wat?
00:49	VanessaE	when?
00:49	Jordach	because of some fucking random conflict
00:49	VanessaE	head -> desk
00:50	VanessaE	ok so then do what I said
00:50	VanessaE	load two images, join them on a bigger canvas
00:50	Jordach	go fuck myself, okay
00:50	VanessaE	and then cut THAT FILE up
00:50	VanessaE	or am I still not being clear?
00:50	VanessaE	no silly
00:50	VanessaE	look
00:50	Jordach	VanessaE, have you seen the effects of combining 16x with 32x?
00:50	VanessaE	facepalm
00:51	Jordach	the pixels go to the top left corner
00:51	VanessaE	then auto-scale the image, derp
00:51	VanessaE	it's not that hard to figure out the scale factor
00:51	VanessaE	2x, 3x, 4x...
00:51	Jordach	VanessaE, again: you'd have to change the current skin format to fix it
00:51	VanessaE	and if it don't fit, crop the fucker
00:51	VanessaE	no you wouldn't
00:51	VanessaE	why aren't you listening to me???
00:51	VanessaE	fuck!
00:51	VanessaE	all right look
00:51	VanessaE	and fucking listen
00:51	Jordach	diagrams would be more useful
00:52	VanessaE	load the skin image. it's what, 128x64 right?
00:52	VanessaE	normally I mean
00:52	VanessaE	or 62x32
00:52	Jordach	64x32
00:52	VanessaE	er 64x32
00:52	VanessaE	right ok let's just for the damn moment assume it's a 64x32 skin
00:52	VanessaE	read file.
00:52	VanessaE	expand image canvas to 72x32.
00:52	VanessaE	read cape file
00:53	EvergreenTree	^ good solution
00:53	VanessaE	paste cape file into the empty space on the right.
00:53	Jordach	VanessaE, the engine cannot scale image files
00:53	VanessaE	bullshit
00:53	VanessaE	scale it MANUALLY then
00:53	Jordach	VanessaE, imagemagick or bust
00:53	VanessaE	if you can read an image at all, you can scale it by 2x, 3x, 4x... etc
00:53	VanessaE	I'm not talking Lanczos here
00:53	Jordach	and funnily enough, os.execute won't handle windows at all
00:53	VanessaE	I'm talking straight factored scaling
00:53	VanessaE	nearest neighbor
00:54	Jordach	VanessaE, see what the engine does to oddly scaled images
00:54	VanessaE	NO!
00:54	Jordach	when doing t1^t2
00:54	VanessaE	LISTEN TO ME DAMN IT
00:54	Jordach	so you make more effort in a slow enging with Lua, than make a more compact and faster fix
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00:54	EvergreenTree	o/
00:54	EvergreenTree	Sheesh, biggest argument in a while
00:55	Jordach	VanessaE, i want to fucking fix the skinning system once and for all
00:55	VanessaE	scale it EXACTLY to 2x or 3x or 4x or whatever size it takes to make the cape exactly fill or OVER fill the empty space you opened to the right of the skin image when you expanded the canvas (note: I said EXPAND THE CANVAS, NOT scale the image).
00:55	Jordach	by obliterating the MC FORMAT
00:55	VanessaE	you will NEVER obliterate the MC format.
00:55	Jordach	VanessaE, bullshit
00:55	VanessaE	it's a done deal, we're stuck with it.
00:55	Jordach	see nodetopia
00:55	VanessaE	now re-read what I said
00:56	Jordach	and?
00:56	Jordach	keeping current standards will only get trampled on again, and again
00:57	Jordach	this is why shit's not going anywhere
00:57	EvergreenTree	Breaking compatability with MC is a good thing, makes people actually do some work to get skind they want
00:57	EvergreenTree	:P
00:57	Jordach	i want to make a goddamn simple format that anyone can pick up
00:57	Jordach	and make it properly 64^2
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00:58	us-0gb	I agree. Minecraft has a stupid skin format. We can't even use a different image for each arm/leg, for goodness sake.
00:58	Jordach	i spent a few hours wrangling with the 1.8 format and found you HAVE TO FLIP THE OPPOSITE ARM
00:58	VanessaE	load the skin image, expand the width of the canvas by exactly 12.5 percent (8 pixels for a 64px skin, 16 pixels for a 128px skin, etc). Don't scale the image, just adjust the size of the canvas and shove the skin over to the far let. Load the cape file. Do a nearest-neighbor scale up by precisely 2x, 3x, 4x whatever it takes to fill the space you opened and "paste" it into the empty space on the right. Pass the resultant image to the engine
00:58	VanessaE	to wrap it around the player model.
00:58	VanessaE	there.
00:58	VanessaE	if you'd just to THAT you wouldn't have to fuck with materials, new formats, etc.
00:59	Jordach	VanessaE, mismatched cape files
00:59	Jordach	eg, wrong size with wrong skin
00:59	VanessaE	mismatched? scale up until it overflows the skin file. sucks to be the user who picked the wrong cape file to go with their skin.
00:59	VanessaE	scale it by exactly 2x, 3x, 4x, 5x, 6x. 547854x
00:59	VanessaE	whatever exact factor it takes
01:00	Jordach	if you let me rip down the "golden parchment" of bullshit and make a better one - you'll all be better OFF
01:00	VanessaE	do some basic math to find the right factor, scale it to that, let it overflow.
01:00	VanessaE	crop it off, pass the result to the model wrapper
01:00	Jordach	and while i'm there, the skin fill should have triple layers FOR ARMOUR
01:00	VanessaE	facepalm
01:00	VanessaE	you're trying to compete with a system that will KICK OUR ASSES and you know it.
01:01	Jordach	VanessaE, i can produce a small blender game engine app for painting the skin
01:01	Jordach	ALLOWING YOU to use the new format but use the old model as a guide
01:01	VanessaE	ok, that's three of us. what about the average nitwit out there who can't even figure out how to GET a skin, much less how to MAKE one?
01:02	Jordach	i want people to use the engine without having to get into the gritty details about pixel art and other shit
01:02	Jordach	make it easy for the bovines
01:02	Jordach	centralised skin systems would also clear this up too
01:02	VanessaE	they would
01:02	VanessaE	but you forget:
01:03	VanessaE	if you do that, i can't tell the user "just google it and give me a link"
01:03	Jordach	VanessaE, if you dumb someone down enough, they're fucking useless
01:03	VanessaE	yeah I know
01:03	Jordach	anyone using windows is exactly like that
01:03	Jordach	force the herd into the gates
01:04	Jordach	because fart assing around with mathematically intense operations will again, slow down the engine
01:05	VanessaE	um
01:05	Jordach	and on a large populous server, you definitely don't want that
01:06	VanessaE	we're talking about canvas size + 12.5%, copy, scale 2x/3x/4x/..., paste, crop...
01:06	VanessaE	all of these operations, combined, would only take a matter of a few milliseconds on even the slowest box.
01:06	Jordach	VanessaE, might be invisible to a bovine, pain in the fucking ass to maintain with engine bugfixes
01:07	Jordach	and if we switch skin formats, (1.8) that work is for fucking nothing
01:07	VanessaE	so, rather than the engine doing this in a few milliseconds, I have to spend hours?
01:07	VanessaE	FUCK THAT
01:08	VanessaE	well then fix the fucking Materials feature
01:08	Jordach	so you're going to build a graphics lib to do all the heavy lifting
01:08	VanessaE	what you're doing is patently wrong here
01:08	Jordach	which depends on irrlicht not breaking, and minetest engine not breaking
01:08	VanessaE	I can't stress that enough
01:08	Jordach	VanessaE, rules and politicians must always be changed
01:09	us-0gb	What is wrong? Changing the skin format?
01:09	Jordach	us-0gb, capes got intergrated
01:09	VanessaE	us-0gb: Jordach is trying to add to the Minecraft skin format.
01:09	VanessaE	Jordach: you can't change the rules if you're not the one writing them to begin with
01:09	Jordach	VanessaE, try forking, i think you've heard of it
01:09	us-0gb	The Minecraft skin format needs to be dropped entirely, not modified.
01:10	us-0gb	Personally, I'm going ack to 2D skins untill we have a decent skin format.
01:10	VanessaE	why bother to fork?
01:10	VanessaE	that would be an even bigger waste of effort than this discussion
01:10	Jordach	us-0gb, i've explained clearly that making a new style format that users do not have to look at (and just paint the model) to make their own skin
01:11	Jordach	and all you'd need is a bit of cURL to upload them somewhere
01:11	us-0gb	That would be great Jordach, assuming it your new format is a good one.
01:12	Jordach	us-0gb, increase size to 128^2
01:12	Jordach	have a similar, but NOT identical format to mc
01:12	Jordach	so force people from using the old skins into the new type
01:12	us-0gb	Jordach, is the same image used for both arms and both legs? That's the main issue I have with Minecraft's format.
01:13	Jordach	us-0gb, no, with that amount of space, you could have at least enough space to upgrade the model
01:13	us-0gb	Awesome. I'm 100% behind you then.
01:13	Jordach	an actual clothes layer, a third for armour, separated arms / legs, capes, other stuff to come
01:14	us-0gb	Seems a bit complex, but assuming it renders quickly, it would have plenty of room for creativity.
01:15	us-0gb	Why not use both skin formats? Then everyone can be happy.
01:15	us-0gb	Multiple models can be included.
01:15	Jordach	what's 96 triangles going to make a fucking difference with on any hardware
01:16	us-0gb	VanessaE will be able to use the Minecraft skins, you and I will be able to use your model. On the same servers.
01:16	Jordach	glxgears has more fucking triangles than the player model
01:17	VanessaE	us-0gb: the problem is we already tell people that we use the Minecraft skin format. We CAN'T reasonably change that now. The proper way forward is to fix the materials system and put capes and whatever else is not supported in Minecraft into their own separate file(s)
01:18	us-0gb	VanessaE, What do we do about the fact that the Minecraft skins force both arms and legs to match?
01:19	us-0gb	That is a serious flaw.
01:19	Jordach	we're limiting ourselves to an arbitrary format that is subject to CHANGE
01:19	VanessaE	us-0gb: put alternate arms and legs into the extra file?
01:19	VanessaE	that's why I added "and whatever else"
01:19	Jordach	ignore THAT GAME and go as you think is right
01:20	Jordach	and if it flops, "so what" you've learned from that
01:20	VanessaE	e.g. capes, left arm/leg, whatever else isn't in the standard player skin
01:20	Jordach	VanessaE, again, you think other users will understand that shit
01:21	Jordach	THEY WON'T
01:21	VanessaE	Jordach: what happened to them just painting in an editor?
01:21	Jordach	they will expect it in ONE FILE
01:21	VanessaE	I'm talking about the base file format.
01:21	us-0gb	Okay, so the main issue is whether to keep legacy compatibility with Minecraft. We don't have Minecraft map compatibility, or even texture pack compatibility. It would be arbitrary to go out of our way for skin compatibility.
01:21	Jordach	yes, and by making the other arm and leg and cape into a new file you make the users confused on how it wors
01:21	Jordach	works*
01:22	VanessaE	well duh, the answer is simple: 64x48. that is, if the file is 4:3 aspect, it's a minetest skin with the extra bits added below the Minecraft stuff.
01:22	VanessaE	extra arm, leg, cape textures.
01:22	Jordach	the multiplayer users want this: 1) to play the damn game 2) have a nice simple skin 3) find freedom
01:22	VanessaE	if it's 2:1 or 1:1 it's Minecraft's format.
01:22	VanessaE	simple.
01:22	VanessaE	there
01:22	VanessaE	see?
01:22	VanessaE	I solved it.
01:22	us-0gb	Both arms and both legs need to be in the same file. It's the only thing that makes sense. Other things might be in an extension file, but we've already broken compatibility at that point.
01:22	VanessaE	herp fucking derp.
01:23	VanessaE	64x48 or you know, however many extra pixels you need. maybe it's 16, maybe it's 12. whatever.
01:23	Jordach	VanessaE, apple broke their own fucking laws with the iPhone 5, the iMac, OS X
01:23	VanessaE	we are not Apple.
01:23	Jordach	CHANGE IS FUCKING NECESSARY
01:23	VanessaE	Apple can do that.
01:23	VanessaE	SO I JUST PROPOSED IT!
01:23	EvergreenTree	Some change isn't
01:24	VanessaE	JESUS H FUCKING CHRIST IN A CARTOON
01:24	VanessaE	WHY CAN'T YOU LISTEN
01:24	Jordach	otherwise you're going to get buried in the fucking sand
01:24	VanessaE	ok look
01:24	VanessaE	I will say it AGIN
01:24	VanessaE	AGAIN8
01:24	VanessaE	...
01:24	VanessaE	ONE file.
01:24	VanessaE	and only one.
01:24	VanessaE	64x48 pixels.
01:24	VanessaE	the top 32 pixels are a standard Minecraft skin. 100% identical in every respect.
01:24	Jordach	VanessaE, 128^2 would be better, in case in future someone decides a new part is better
01:25	EvergreenTree	Jordach: This is a good solution for the moment
01:25	VanessaE	the next 12 or 16 pixels or whatever would be for extra arm, leg, and cape images.
01:25	EvergreenTree	we don't need to futureproof
01:25	Jordach	EvergreenTree, us lot might not be here in 3 years
01:25	Jordach	newer developers might need the extra space
01:25	EvergreenTree	and why are we limiting ourselves to MC's standards?
01:26	EvergreenTree	just to make space for newbies?
01:26	VanessaE	then you detect the image format. if it's roughly 4:3 aspect, it's a Minetest skin. if it's 2:1 aspect, it's Minecraft standard. if it's 1:1 aspect, it's Minecraft's "clothing" format.
01:26	VanessaE	EvergreenTree: exactly.
01:26	VanessaE	have you ever had to deal with noobs?
01:26	EvergreenTree	YEs
01:26	VanessaE	I mean the glut of them I get every day?
01:26	EvergreenTree	On redcrab, on the forums, on your servers
01:26	VanessaE	:)
01:27	VanessaE	exactly.
01:27	VanessaE	then you should know
01:27	VanessaE	they WILL NOT CHANGE
01:27	Jordach	VanessaE, i'm just showing you how arrogant americans can be
01:27	EvergreenTree	bleh
01:27	Jordach	i'm playing by arrogant rules
01:27	EvergreenTree	brb
01:27	VanessaE	Jordach: some americans can be, but some others can be also.........
01:28	Jordach	i'd rather knock down the fucking Empire State and build a modern styled one in place of it
01:28	VanessaE	if you try to go up against MC and compete, you will be pounded right down into the ground.
01:28	Jordach	the old MUST CRUMBLE away
01:28	Jordach	living in the past will be your end
01:28	VanessaE	so rather than try to change their format, invent a new one that's easy to detect in software AND THAT WON'T INTERFERE
01:29	VanessaE	that's the key right there
01:29	Jordach	so you need three different player models that have an identical mesh
01:29	VanessaE	DON'T INTERFERE with the old stuff
01:29	us-0gb	At the point the skin is being used in MineTEST, we're already going against MineCRAFT.
01:29	Jordach	pilzadam will go fucking apeshit over that
01:29	VanessaE	us-0gb: but we're able to use something that Minecraft made popular for us - we let them do the hard work already
01:30	VanessaE	what Jordach proposes to do is try to turn that around, and it WILL fail.
01:30	VanessaE	Mojang has infinite resources and they WILL destroy us if they want to
01:30	Jordach	so you'd rather make people more lazy than they already ae
01:30	us-0gb	VanessaE, But they're doing it wrong. Sure, we get their work, but their work is flawed.
01:30	Jordach	are*
01:30	us-0gb	That skin format is problematic.
01:30	VanessaE	us-0gb: I know they're doing it wrong
01:30	VanessaE	us-0gb: but I just proposed a solution and no one is listening.
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01:31	VanessaE	a perfect solution that solves all the problems in one step.
01:31	us-0gb	VanessaE, You're sugesting some sort of autodetect and multiple meshes.
01:31	VanessaE	no duplicated work, no duplicated models, no holding-over of old formats.
01:31	VanessaE	no, no, no, and no. in that order.
01:31	Jordach	sure users won't understand the new format
01:31	Jordach	but they will in time
01:31	VanessaE	Jordach: what happened to "users don't need to look at the file"?
01:32	Jordach	there will be a need growing until someone goes out and does it
01:33	VanessaE	us-0gb: what I am proposing is exactly one, single monolithic model that covers all three use-cases, and proper handling of the UV maps that get wrapped around it. detect which kind of texture/skin format is being used, cut it apart as needed, and wrap it around properly.
01:33	VanessaE	one model file, one skin file.
01:34	Jordach	VanessaE, you want the tool that does everything, but idiots can't use it for one use
01:34	VanessaE	whether that skin file is a 64x32 standard MC skin, a 64x44 (64x32+an extra 12 pixels below that to add more leg/arm/cape images) "extended" Minetest skin, or a 64x64 Minecraft 1.8 "clothing" skin
01:34	VanessaE	you can easily detect which skin format is being requested by just computing the aspect ratio.
01:34	us-0gb	VanessaE, That model sounds like a very hacky one.
01:35	VanessaE	us-0gb: why? it's a caped, clothed player model. what you put on it depends on what the skin file has in it.
01:35	Jordach	VanessaE, theory doesn't work until tested
01:35	Jordach	go on, make your own fucking format
01:35	Jordach	and i'll go make mine
01:35	VanessaE	Jordach: then test it. You're the one wanting to define a new format.
01:36	VanessaE	I'm trying to propose HOW that format should be done in a way that won't break everyone else's setups.
01:36	us-0gb	VanessaE, It might sound hacky to me because I don't understand the low-level details. Disregard the hacky part.
01:39	Jordach	VanessaE, a more intelligent format would be the way forward, but using maths to calculate what the skin is and what not
01:39	Jordach	you're missing the worst point
01:39	Jordach	UV unwraps only work on the SAME 2:1 scale they were unwrapped at
01:39	Jordach	so if you were to use the 2:1, 1:1 and 3:1, skins would literally look like shit
01:40	Jordach	(think atari 2600)
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01:40	Jordach	or stretching an image like 8x16 into 16^2
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01:41	iluvpeeps7	Vanessa?
01:41	iluvpeeps7	are you on
01:41	Jordach	she's mad bro
01:41	iluvpeeps7	why
01:42	Jordach	major contest of skin formats
01:42	iluvpeeps7	oh yeah
01:42	Jordach	nearly two hours of combat
01:42	iluvpeeps7	alot of people were spamming her with websites
01:42	iluvpeeps7	i feel bad for her
01:42	iluvpeeps7	Jordach
01:42	iluvpeeps7	can you do me a favor..
01:42	Jordach	iluvpeeps7, that's not the problem, the problem is, we're stuck with a new impending format
01:43	iluvpeeps7	can you send me a link to her IRC channel
01:43	iluvpeeps7	oh
01:43	Jordach	which isn't the one you're used to
01:43	iluvpeeps7	this
01:43	Jordach	vanessa wants it the old way, while the new one will fix many problems
01:43	iluvpeeps7	i use this because i dont know her server IRC
01:43	EvergreenTree	Jordach: Stop trying to bend people to your will
01:43	EvergreenTree	:P
01:44	iluvpeeps7	can you send me the link to her IRC channel>
01:44	Jordach	BRRM BRRM BRRM goes the chainsaw
01:44	iluvpeeps7	?*
01:44	EvergreenTree	iluvpeeps7: Don't listen until you hear both sides of the argument
01:44	iluvpeeps7	ok
01:44	EvergreenTree	anyway, you're on the wrong network
01:44	iluvpeeps7	any website...
01:44	iluvpeeps7	i know
01:44	EvergreenTree	I think you're on freenode
01:44	iluvpeeps7	i dont know the channel
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01:44	iluvpeeps7	no im on #minetest
01:44	iluvpeeps7	i want to join her server IRC whats her channel?
01:44	EvergreenTree	This is #minetest, you're just on the wrong network
01:44	iluvpeeps7	then what is the channel
01:45	EvergreenTree	Channels and networks are different things
01:45	iluvpeeps7	?
01:45	iluvpeeps7	but it says nickname and under it it says channel
01:45	iluvpeeps7	i just want to join the server IRC but how?>
01:45	EvergreenTree	it's #minetest on horus.inchra.net
01:45	EvergreenTree	I'm not sure how to do it on kiwiirc
01:46	iluvpeeps7	ok brb
01:46	EvergreenTree	Can someone more experienced with this sort of thing help?
01:46	Jordach	hold on
01:46	Jordach	these are the settings: http://www.zimagez.com/zimage/screenshot-080214-014619.php
01:47	us-0gb	EvergreenTree, Jordach is right though.
01:47	EvergreenTree	Yes, I know
01:48	EvergreenTree	I'm just stating that you don't need to drag someone who doesn't even care into this discussion
01:48	Jordach	[01:22:24] <Jordach> the multiplayer users want this: 1) to play the damn game 2) have a nice simple skin 3) find freedom <- did anyone notice that peeps didn't care about the impending doom for current skins
01:48	Jordach	that line is what THEY WANT
01:48	EvergreenTree	And those users can barely figure out how to do it the way it is
01:49	Jordach	so we've got a half finished wall
01:49	EvergreenTree	hm
01:49	Jordach	made of mud
01:49	Jordach	and one that can be made from weatherproof brick
01:49	Jordach	which side of it would you want to be on when it rains?
01:50	EvergreenTree	I am not arguing about which solution is better
01:50	Jordach	01:50am
01:50	Jordach	i'm going to need my sleep
01:51	EvergreenTree	the go sleep
01:51	EvergreenTree	:P
01:51	EvergreenTree	*then
01:51	Jordach	now this is when i invent the perfect design
01:51	VanessaE	there.
01:51	VanessaE	https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/pull/201#issuecomment-34525006
01:51	VanessaE	sorry he missed it.
01:51	VanessaE	by just seconds.
01:51	us-0gb	Sure you are.
01:51	us-0gb	Oh, wait. I misunderstood.
01:52	us-0gb	Disregard my accusatory comment.
01:52	* us-0gb	's attention is just in too many places at once
01:53	VanessaE	read the post I just linked
01:53	EvergreenTree	That happens sometimes
01:53	VanessaE	I think it explains it nice and clearly.
01:53	EvergreenTree	I think having seperate files for different layers of armor/clothing is a good idea
01:56	VanessaE	there, and linked the post to an image that actually describes the multi-layer format.
01:56	us-0gb	I still disagree with multiformat approach. However, case "b" covers my use case, so I'll just let you people figgure out what direction you want to take the skin formats. A single format though would be much cleaner.
01:57	us-0gb	For example, only using format c.
01:58	VanessaE	right
01:58	VanessaE	format C would cover that problem
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02:12	VanessaE	the problem with format C though is, it still doesn't support those capes.
02:14	VanessaE	there, re-read the comment.
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02:15	VanessaE	wait, not done.
02:16	VanessaE	there. Now I'm done, yours is use-case c now :)
02:16	VanessaE	this added in a mention for the idea of loading two files, since the 1.8 format doesn't have a cape.
02:19	us-0gb	My use case is whichever doesn't use the same image for both arms/legs, so it's both B and C.
02:20	VanessaE	right
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02:27	EvergreenTree	Hi OldCoder
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02:34	VanessaE	there.
02:34	VanessaE	a quick adjustment to my servers/games buildbot and taoki's fixed player model is put into place.
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02:36	VanessaE	(only have to worry about it on Vanilla, the other servers either have non-changeable player skins, or the models already lack capes, or they're 2d as on Nostalgia)
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02:44	* EvergreenTree	is working on his youtube intro
02:48	paramat	capes ... see what celeron has to say, since he's 'audiovisuals' manager. im concerned about extra processing when not using a cape ... ? :)
02:49	VanessaE	re-read my comment on the pull, I've been revising it, trying to get what I wanted to say 'right'.
02:49	paramat	i feel MCentricism is uncool, buying popularity by having MCompatibility =P
02:49	paramat	ok
02:50	VanessaE	there's a difference between "buying" popularity, and knowing when not to try to fight. it'd be like trying to fight a tsunami when all you have is a bucket.
02:50	VanessaE	it's a fight we cannot, so we would be better off just adapting.
02:50	VanessaE	cannot win*
02:52	paramat	hm ... no one else feels capes are too MC/Minecon exclusive to be in core MT? ;)
02:53	VanessaE	I don't care about capes either way. I just care about random commits breaking my servers.
02:53	VanessaE	this commit will break 75% of my users' skins.
02:54	VanessaE	to counter, I grabbed taoki's model file as suggested and will just use that.
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04:50	Sokomine_	Hey Guys
04:53	Miner_48er	hi
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05:19	us-0gb	For some reason, Minetest is not sending my password to servers. I don't know why not, but I can't even log into my own server.
05:20	ShadowNinja	us-0gb: Sounds like sapier messed something up.
05:20	us-0gb	In 0.4.9 stable?
05:21	us-0gb	I didn't have this issue from my 64 bit machine, but I do from the 32 bit one.
05:21	us-0gb	I don't know if that's related.
05:21	ShadowNinja	us-0gb: Yes, 0.4.9+ may have net issues.
05:22	ShadowNinja	Tell sapier, although it may be fixed now.
05:25	us-0gb	Alright. I'll tell him when I see him.
05:26	us-0gb	I also found this machine runs Minetest even worse than my last machine - though it runs SuperTux better.
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05:44	* Guest98666	just noticed the last three characters of his name
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08:27	reactor	EHLO
08:28	reactor	Are there any general anti-griefing guidelines?
08:29	reactor	Most people joining my server in past 24 hours seem to do nothing but mess up the spawn area.
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09:11	CheapSeth	reactor: I don't know, but tell me if you find, I'm interested in hosting my own server
09:16	PenguinDad	(O_O_O)
09:16	reactor	Ð©_Ð©_Ð©
09:17	PenguinDad	:D
09:22	Calinou	there are no guidelines.
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09:30	* sfan5	puts a kitten on reactor's head
09:31	reactor	sneeze
09:31	* reactor	throws the kitten at sfan5's face.
09:31	reactor	s/at/in/
09:32	* sfan5	gives reactor a kitten
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09:33	* reactor	puts the kitten in a box.
09:33	reactor	Schroedinger's. Shall we?
09:37	sfan5	nah
09:39	reactor	Why not?
09:39	sfan5	because the kitten is innocent
09:41	reactor	But it is imaginary.
09:41	reactor	And appeal to emotion is a logical fallacy.
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10:51	reactor	What's the meaning of -m32 in LDFLAGS?
10:52	Jordach	hey VanessaE, suck it: https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?pid=128988#p128988
10:52	Jordach	INVALID SKINS if they have bad pixels
10:53	reactor	Oh, 32 bit.
10:53	reactor	Why would I need that on a 64-bit OS?
10:53	reactor	...is it generally good to deny no-password logins?
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10:55	markveidemanis	Hello
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11:03	reactor	Elo.
11:04	markveidemanis	howyadoin
11:05	reactor	Fine.
11:14	Jordach	VanessaE, when your ass gets out of bed: zipball the entire skins dir
11:16	Jordach	i will destructively remove bad pixels
11:17	reactor	Bad pixels?
11:18	Jordach	reactor, dynamic capes got added last night
11:18	reactor	...are there any drawbacks of LuaJIT?
11:18	reactor	OH.
11:18	reactor	s/H/h/
11:18	reactor	What does that mean? Skin files started including cape texture?
11:20	Jordach	yes
11:23	reactor	And skin format is still similar to Minecraft?
11:23	reactor	And Minecraft skins typically store junk data there?
11:30	Jordach	yeah
11:31	reactor	"mtskinlint"
11:32	reactor	Guess it can be done in sh, using batch processing programs.
11:33	Jordach	yeah
11:33	Jordach	even imagemagick allows doing that
11:33	Jordach	and i got two hours of bitching for it :)
11:33	reactor	imagemagick _is_ batch processing software
11:34	reactor	...not exactly "lint", as it wouldn't keep correct capes
11:35	reactor	there is no way to detect if it's correct
11:35	reactor	...though if it's a rectangle surrounded by transparency, it is likely to be a cape.
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11:40	reactor	What the hell, minetestserver compiled with luajit does not do anything but putting newlines in its log!
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11:55	PilzAdam	Hello everyone!
11:56	reactor	EHLO
12:03	PilzAdam	quote of the day: "problem.zip"
12:05	reactor	?!
12:06	PenguinDad	"problem.zip" :D
12:06	reactor	problem.tar.bz2
12:07	reactor	Why does LUAJIT-enabled server crash while loading certain map?
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12:12	Megaf	Morning all
12:12	reactor	Mowing.
12:20	reactor	Seriously, what's the big deal about loading an existing world?
12:20	reactor	It suddenly is unable to "bind to the address".
12:21	reactor	What? A map being loaded prevents it from binding to the port? Where's logic in that?!
12:30	Jordach	reactor, i'm going to get a nice shiny Core i5 machine soon
12:30	reactor	Good.
12:30	Jordach	might have Windows 8; will be flashed with Kubuntu
12:30	reactor	I care.
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12:34	markveidemanis	reactor: use ctrl+c to close instead of ctrl+z
12:34	markveidemanis	I tried what you have, that was the issue on closing the game
12:35	reactor	markveidemanis: I know what key means what.
12:35	reactor	But thanks for the information.
12:35	markveidemanis	I guess you know more than me but ctrl c probably closes the socket
12:35	reactor	...I wonder who would ever use ^Z to terminate.
12:36	reactor	Because on most systems, it means "suspend".
12:47	markveidemanis	I use it sometimes
12:47	markveidemanis	If something doesnt work, i mash ^ and ZXC
12:47	reactor	Anyone who has read any UNIX introduction from past two decades should know that.
12:51	markveidemanis	Anyone seen Ragnar?
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13:14	reactor	Totally unreasonable.
13:14	reactor	As soon as I change map.sqlite to my map, the server refuses to start.
13:14	reactor	Without LuaJIT, there wasn't any problem like that.
13:15	PilzAdam	reactor, are you using latest git?
13:15	reactor	Yes.
13:16	reactor	Client works, singleplayer works with that very map. Server fails.
13:16	PilzAdam	have you set bind_adress in minetest.conf?
13:16	reactor	Yes.
13:16	PilzAdam	to what?
13:16	reactor	It works if I remove all worlds.
13:17	reactor	bind_address = 192.168.0.5
13:17	reactor	The address assigned to that system.
13:18	reactor	Wait a second...
13:18	reactor	No, it was actually commented, somehow.
13:19	reactor	Weird, for a long time it used to work with the setting commented.
13:21	markveidemanis	Try comparing your local copy map size with the one on the server
13:23	reactor	The problem's been solved.
13:24	reactor	By uncommenting the bind_address.
13:24	reactor	PilzAdam: thank you.
13:24	PilzAdam	!next
13:24	MinetestBot	Another satisfied customer. Next!
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13:59	markveidemanis	!lastseen Ragnar
14:01	PenguinDad	~seen Ragnar
14:01	ShadowBot	PenguinDad: I haven't seen Ragnar in #minetest.
14:01	PenguinDad	^markveidemanis
14:07	PilzAdam	~meow
14:07	PilzAdam	:-/
14:07	sfan5	wtf
14:08	sfan5	does really nobody know MinetestBot's syntax?
14:08	PilzAdam	sfan5, ShadowBot is so much cooler
14:09	sfan5	no
14:09	PilzAdam	o
14:09	PilzAdam	k
14:09	PilzAdam	!meow
14:10	* sfan5	gives PilzAdam a kitten
14:10	PilzAdam	<3
14:11		EvergreenTree joined #minetest
14:11		EvergreenTree joined #minetest
14:13		eeew` joined #minetest
14:14	markveidemanis	~seen RagnarLaud
14:14	ShadowBot	markveidemanis: I saw RagnarLaud in #minetest 3 days, 23 hours, 48 minutes, and 23 seconds ago saying ":)".
14:14	markveidemanis	aha
14:20	SirDigby	:)
14:21	SirDigby	~seen SirDigby83
14:21	ShadowBot	SirDigby: I haven't seen SirDigby83 in #minetest.
14:21	SirDigby	:(
14:21	SirDigby	~seen SirDigby
14:21	ShadowBot	SirDigby: I saw SirDigby in #minetest 11 seconds ago saying ":(".
14:21		reactor_ joined #minetest
14:21	SirDigby	:)
14:25	Jordach	~seen Your_Mom
14:25	ShadowBot	Jordach: I haven't seen Your_Mom in #minetest.
14:25	Jordach	</trollface>
14:27		john_minetest joined #minetest
14:28	reactor_	Hello every_.
14:29	* sfan5	gives john_minetest a kitten
14:29		NekoGloop joined #minetest
14:31	* reactor_	snatches the kitten and puts it in the box.
14:31	reactor_	Mine!
14:31	markveidemanis	~seen Trolololo
14:31	ShadowBot	markveidemanis: I haven't seen Trolololo in #minetest.
14:31	reactor_	For science, you allergene.
14:31	markveidemanis	Wierd, must me
14:31	reactor_	!seen #minetest
14:31	MinetestBot	reactor_: Sorry, I haven't seen #minetest around.
14:32	reactor_	~seen #minetest
14:32	ShadowBot	reactor_: seen [channel] <nick>
14:32	markveidemanis	#minetest :Erroneous Nickname
14:32	reactor_	~seen #minetest #minetest
14:32	ShadowBot	reactor_: Error: '#minetest' is not a valid nick.
14:32	reactor_	Grr.
14:32	reactor_	~seen #minetest minetest
14:32	ShadowBot	reactor_: I haven't seen minetest in #minetest.
14:32	reactor_	That's what I mean.
14:32	PenguinDad	~seen kittens
14:32	ShadowBot	PenguinDad: I haven't seen kittens in #minetest.
14:33	SirDigby	~seen puppy bowl
14:33	markveidemanis	~seen any kittens
14:33	ShadowBot	SirDigby: seen [channel] <nick>
14:33	ShadowBot	markveidemanis: seen [channel] <nick>
14:33	PenguinDad	:(
14:33	SirDigby	:(
14:33	markveidemanis	~25MB
14:33	PilzAdam	I guess we should all stop abusing the bots now
14:33	markveidemanis	Agreed.
14:33	SirDigby	i miss the puppy bowl :(
14:37		cosarara joined #minetest
14:38	cosarara	Hi!, are there any public builds of the android port of minetest?
14:40		testeree joined #minetest
14:42	ShadowBot	john_minetest: I saw reactor in #minetest 1 hour, 18 minutes, and 5 seconds ago saying "PilzAdam: thank you.".
14:42	reactor_	Hoe funny.
14:42	ShadowBot	john_minetest: I saw john_minetest in #minetest 13 seconds ago saying "~seen reactor".
14:42	reactor_	s/oe/ow
14:43	ShadowBot	john_minetest: I haven't seen ShadowBot in #minetest.
14:43		proller joined #minetest
14:43	testeree	i always thought there was only open alternative to minecraft clone? apparently now there are two https://github.com/fogleman/Craft . any thoughts on the scope of this new project? btw is there any discussion thread comparing it with minetest design?
14:43	sfan5	!seen ShadowBot
14:43	MinetestBot	sfan5: shadowbot was last seen at 2014-02-08 14:43:03 UTC on #minetest
14:44	testeree	john_minetest, performance wise ?
14:45	reactor_	Minetest is not very bad performance-wise, especially compared to Minecraft.
14:46	testeree	i believe minecraft is shit having used java to develop :P
14:48		Yepoleb_ joined #minetest
14:48	reactor_	Yeah.
14:49	reactor_	Whatever is bad, becomes popular.
14:49	reactor_	Smoking, alcohol, IBM PC, Windows, Java.
14:50	testeree	:D
14:50	sfan5	john_minetest: that's how companies notice their product is shit
14:52		SylvieLorxu joined #minetest
14:53	cosarara	sfan5, are there public builds of the android branch?
14:54	sfan5	which android branch?
14:54		hmmmm joined #minetest
14:54	cosarara	lol https://github.com/sfan5/minetest/tree/android_new
14:54	sfan5	sfan/minetest/android_new ?
14:54	sfan5	ah.
14:55	sfan5	no
14:55	sfan5	but if you want you can have the one I currently have
14:55	sfan5	but it is nowhere near finished
14:56	cosarara	Well I wanted to try it, but for now I haven't been able to compile irrlicht
14:56	sfan5	which errors do you get?
14:57	cosarara	no include path in which to search for limits.h
14:57	sfan5	did you follow http://dev.minetest.net/Android ?
14:57	cosarara	I got android-ndk-crystax from a package in Arch's AUR
14:58	cosarara	I guess I'll have to mess with the library/include paths a bit
14:58	sfan5	hm
14:58	sfan5	output of '' which arm-linux-androideabi-gcc ''
14:58	sfan5	?
14:58	cosarara	/opt/android-ndk-crystax/toolchains/arm-linux-androideabi-4.6.3/prebuilt/linux-x86/bin//arm-linux-androideabi-gcc
14:59	cosarara	That double // is my fault
14:59	sfan5	do you have a 32bit os or why are you using a 32bit toolchain?
14:59	cosarara	I didn't notice :P
15:00	sfan5	which android platform does the toolchain target?
15:01	cosarara	androideabi-4.6.3?
15:01	sfan5	no
15:01	sfan5	a target is something like android-9 or android-14
15:02	sfan5	oh god what
15:02	sfan5	who created a pkgbuild this bad?
15:02	cosarara	In /opt/android-ndk-crystax/platforms I have android-3, 4, 5, 8 9 and 14
15:03	sfan5	ah
15:03	sfan5	thats the project
15:03	sfan5	problem*
15:03	sfan5	the package just copies the ndk to /opt/android-ndk-crystax
15:03	cosarara	Yep
15:04	sfan5	it doesn't actually make a standalone toolchain
15:04	SirDigby	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOND94mmcVo
15:05	sfan5	dl http://www.crystax.net/download/android-ndk-r8-crystax-1-linux-x86_64.tar.bz2 and use build/tools/make-standalone-toolchain.sh --platform=android-14 --install-dir=/opt/android-toolchain
15:06	sfan5	cosarara: /\
15:07	cosarara	ok
15:15	cosarara	it's built fine now, thanks
15:19	SirDigby	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1ZAXYyxd08
15:21		cisoun joined #minetest
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15:25	reactor	"abmin"
15:25	cosarara	sfan5, cmake can't find jpeg
15:26	sfan5	cosarara: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/30267315/android-libs.tar.bz2
15:28	Jordach	oi VanessaE
15:28	Jordach	i might have found a cape soloution
15:30	reactor	Got packet command: 55 for peer id 5 but client isn't active yet. Dropping packet
15:30	reactor	Eh?
15:30	Jordach	my revolves around using addi's database and dynamic texture uploads
15:30		blaze joined #minetest
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15:34	Jordach	VanessaE, there is a goddamn simple fix: dynamically update a texture when it's being painted and allow saving to addi's database
15:40		zat joined #minetest
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15:56	hmmmm	hey sfan5, how did you intend to have the custom formspec-defined player list work at all? did you try to make the listbox the parent window? did you have something in mind or did you just figure, "ah it'd be cool if this could be customizable"
15:56	sfan5	hmmmm: I tried looking at places where formspec is used
15:57	hmmmm	yeah, I was trying to fix it a while back but then I realized the entire concept of what you're doing doesn't really make sense
15:58	sfan5	please tell me what was wrong then
15:58	hmmmm	i think what you may have intended was to have the entire minetest window be the parent window for the formspec
15:58	hmmmm	but
15:58	hmmmm	that's just not possible
15:58	hmmmm	if it were then we'd use that for the hud
15:58		CheapSeth joined #minetest
15:58	hmmmm	but you can't have a listbox control be the parent window of other irrlicht controls
15:58	hmmmm	it just doesn't work
16:00	hmmmm	so if it's the case that formspec just doesn't work out in this situation, you'd have to remove it, which means that entire commit can't be done
16:00	hmmmm	and it's back to the original one
16:00	sfan5	:-/
16:00	CheapSeth	Is thre a wrapper or something to make mods in python?
16:00	CheapSeth	*there
16:00	hmmmm	the reason i bring this up is because people are looking for the next version soon and that's a feature i wanted to have in 0.4.9, but that didn't happen
16:01	hmmmm	it'd be really good if there could be some closure on it
16:01	sfan5	CheapSeth: no
16:01	CheapSeth	D:
16:01	sfan5	hmmmm: would it work to just use a different irrlicht gui object as parent?
16:02		seva_ joined #minetest
16:02	CheapSeth	Î”
16:04	hmmmm	you'd have to make a main window, and it'd have to have transparency like the main menu window
16:04	hmmmm	and you'd have to have a way of specifying which formspec control is the special listbox where the player names go
16:04	hmmmm	this really is not doable without client side scripting... it'd probably be a better idea to wait on that one
16:05	sfan5	can we merge it without lua support for the time being?
16:05	PilzAdam	hmmmm, what are the parents for the other formspecs?
16:06	hmmmm	the root
16:06	hmmmm	i.e. not a control
16:06	hmmmm	sfan5, yes
16:09		CheapSeth_ joined #minetest
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16:17	rubenwardy	wtf. "Jordach - Blender Master (Moderator)"
16:17	rubenwardy	And...
16:17	rubenwardy	Hi all!
16:18	rubenwardy	http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/borowitzreport/2014/02/gates-spends-entire-first-day-back-in-office-trying-to-install-windows-81.html
16:32		mrtux joined #minetest
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16:52		farlepet joined #minetest
17:06		us_0gb joined #minetest
17:08	us_0gb	Yay! It's nice to have my Freenode account back.
17:09	us_0gb	(If anyone cares, I was locked out of my password database, the account wasn't stolen.)
17:10	sfan5	lolwat http://blog.erratasec.com/2014/02/that-nbc-story-100-fraudulent.html
17:10	sfan5	why would nbc air a report this shitty?
17:12		OldCoder joined #minetest
17:13	us_0gb	The media will air all sorts of things that will bring viewers without checking them out.
17:14	us_0gb	There's this joke about a network airing a "study showing that 80% of networks will reair 'scientific studies' without verifying them".
17:15		VOT joined #minetest
17:16	VOT	hello
17:16	Enke	us_0gb: 'tis true
17:16	VOT	my minetest changes the refresh rate to 30 in fullscreen, linux with open source amd gpu driver
17:16	VOT	arch linux
17:17	VOT	30 causes two problems: slow looking minetest, and my monitor to have a massive black box in the centre
17:17	VOT	any ideas? :P
17:19	sfan5	VOT: try vsync = true
17:19	sfan5	or vsync = false
17:20	CheapSeth_	Hmâ€¦ try the proprietary driver? (don't throw rocks at me)
17:20	* sfan5	puts a kitten on CheapSeth_'s head
17:20	sfan5	oops
17:20	sfan5	wrong one
17:20		Gethiox2 joined #minetest
17:20	* sfan5	throws a kitten at CheapSeth_
17:20	VOT	throws rocks at CheapSeth
17:20	VOT	:D
17:20	CheapSeth_	I have the same problem when I'm using KDE
17:20	VOT	using enlightenment here
17:20	CheapSeth_	But it's fine with awesome WM
17:21	VOT	found a stupid workaround
17:21	VOT	minetest & sudo xrandr --output HDMI-0 --mode 1920x1080 --rate 60
17:22	VOT	these textures are nice, but look a bit griddy :P
17:37	VOT	problem number 2:
17:37	VOT	i can't get above 35fps regardless of texture or quality settings
17:37	Jordach	VOT, minetest aims for 30 fps all round
17:37	VOT	ah
17:38	Jordach	as it will change the view distance until it hits that point
17:38	VOT	that explains why the blocks were invisible for a few minutes
17:40	harrison	i am not a bot
17:40	harrison	in fact, i prefer to be thought of as a free AI, as it were
17:40	Jordach	AI research is illegal
17:40	harrison	not as some weak eliza ripoff
17:40	harrison	Can you tell me more about that?
17:41	MinetestBot	john_minetest: MMORPG DOFUS :: Massive Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game
17:41	Jordach	namely skynet issues
17:43	Jordach	john_minetest, http://www.ebuyer.com/579786-zoostorm-desktop-pc-7873-1214
17:43	Jordach	you got ripped off :>
17:44	Jordach	found something to suit my needs exactly
17:46		Cerise joined #minetest
17:46		Cerise joined #minetest
17:47	Jordach	john_minetest, i like the new simcity
17:48	Jordach	and considering it demolishes my brothers i3 machine (and my other brothers Core 2 Duo) - i fucking win for once
17:50		PapaJacky joined #minetest
17:52	Jordach	john_minetest, offline mode coming soon
17:52	Jordach	and modding :>
17:53		Cerise joined #minetest
17:54	Jordach	john_minetest, cracked versions alreadu support offline mode...
17:54		VOT joined #minetest
17:54	VOT	turns out
17:55	VOT	enlightenment wasn't thinking it was fullscreen, so it was compositing it
17:55	VOT	now i'm getting >60fps :P
17:55	VOT	in inventory however, i press the arrow to go to the next screen and it crashes
17:55	Jordach	VOT, strange (anything in debug.tx?
17:55	Jordach	txt*?
17:56		pandaro joined #minetest
17:56	Jordach	john_minetest, they became open source
17:56	VOT	now it works fine.. hm
17:56	Jordach	open source is the next level of the amiga scene
17:56	Jordach	where hobbyists can work together real time
17:57	us_0gb	Like Minetest. I get 2 FPS now.
17:58	* Jordach	can
17:58	us_0gb	Anyone know of some fun free games?
17:58	Jordach	TF2, us_0gb
17:58	VOT	ah ha
17:58	VOT	if i don't preload textures, it will kill itself
17:59	us_0gb	Jordach: TF2 is Team Fortress 2? That isn't free.
17:59	Jordach	us_0gb, and, you asked for free and fun games
17:59	VOT	TF2 is free...
17:59	us_0gb	john_minetest: There's a lot of free one, but just like with nonfree ones, there's a lot of junk games to sort through.
18:00	VOT	hugs the archer
18:04	us_0gb	I want a free game similar to Final Fantasy Tactics A2 or Echoes of Time. I plan to make the former when I have time.
18:05	VOT	this part of the world just refuses to render.
18:06	VOT	forever black :O
18:06	harrison	in fact, i prefer to be thought of as a free AI, as it were
18:06	harrison	not as some weak eliza ripoff
18:07	VOT	ah
18:07	VOT	even with preload the inv freeze bug happens
18:08		iluvpeeps7 joined #minetest
18:08	iluvpeeps7	Hey Vanessa
18:08	Jordach	hello iluvpeeps7
18:08	iluvpeeps7	hello Jordach :)
18:08	us_0gb	That list is depressing. Every time I find one with a cool title, it turns out to not be free.
18:08	iluvpeeps7	can you give me a link to Vanessas Server IRC please
18:08	VOT	nothing in debug.txt
18:09	Jordach	<Jordach> these are the settings: http://www.zimagez.com/zimage/screenshot-080214-014619.php
18:09	Jordach	iluvpeeps7, ^
18:09	us_0gb	iluvpeeps7: It's on the irc.incra.net network, #minetest .
18:09	VOT	us_0gb: what about xonotic?
18:09	iluvpeeps7	that browser doesnt allow me to use it
18:09	iluvpeeps7	i have to do it on KiwiIRC
18:09	iluvpeeps7	Shadow game me a link
18:09	Jordach	iluvpeeps7, those are the settings you need to put into the connection screen
18:10	iluvpeeps7	but i forgot to copy and paste
18:10	Jordach	i don't have the link handy
18:10	us_0gb	VOT: Free, but it's a first person shooter. Those don't really do anything for me.
18:11	VOT	suggestion for minetest devs: pick block
18:11	VOT	us_0gb: http://www.linuxlinks.com/article/20080510052539217/Games.html
18:11	markveidemanis	Anyone wanna play openarena with me?
18:13	Jordach	ewww
18:14	* Jordach	pokes Calinou
18:15		iluvpeeps7 joined #minetest
18:15	iluvpeeps7	it keeps saying ERROR
18:15	markveidemanis	Exactly the same thing
18:15	markveidemanis	I mean err...
18:15	iluvpeeps7	how am i supposed to go on Vanessas server IRC? D;
18:15	iluvpeeps7	D:
18:16	iluvpeeps7	ShadowNinja
18:16	markveidemanis	...Nexuoz
18:16	markveidemanis	*Nexuiz
18:16	ShadowNinja	iluvpeeps7: Use the link in her forum topics.
18:16	iluvpeeps7	ok
18:16	iluvpeeps7	brb
18:17	iluvpeeps7	thanks
18:17	ShadowNinja	Jordach: That's incorrect actually. 6667 is non-SSL, 6697 is SSL-only.
18:18	Jordach	ShadowNinja, pfft
18:22	Jordach	ikr
18:24	harrison	Can you tell me more about that?
18:26	us_0gb	Money is awesome though. You can trade it for food. I like food.
18:29		blaise joined #minetest
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18:42	us_0gb	john_minetest: What do the cashers have against art? We should ask to speak to the manager.
18:42	* Jordach	claps with infinite sarcasm
18:44	harrison	john_minetest: it is noble what you say -- I just want to have a nice project and I don't care about the money...
18:45		Exio4 joined #minetest
18:48	Jordach	VanessaE, poke
18:51	VanessaE	ow.
18:51		Cerise joined #minetest
18:51	Jordach	VanessaE, i've worked out a decent method to work with capes
18:52	VanessaE	did you read my proposals on the pull?
18:52	Jordach	<Jordach> VanessaE, there is a goddamn simple fix: dynamically update a texture when it's being painted and allow saving to addi's database
18:52		blaise joined #minetest
18:53	Jordach	links
18:54	VanessaE	https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/pull/201#issuecomment-34525006
18:54	Jordach	VanessaE, i've also worked out a hybrid player_textures with materials
18:55	Jordach	the first cape type is known as cape0.png <- this is a PURE ALPHA texture
18:56	Jordach	actually, no_cape.png would be better
18:56	VanessaE	anything that involves using a centralized database is a non-starter.
18:56	Jordach	VanessaE, the second material can follow the MC cape format
18:57	Jordach	because no_cape.png is for players without a defined cape, which is in the format of player_NICK_cape.png
18:57	Jordach	and because irrlicht doesnt render pixels with alpha, a pure alpha cape will not display ingame
18:58	Jordach	so it IS possible for a hybrid player_textures and capes
18:58	VanessaE	you do realize that a pure alpha channel cape would have nothing but black and white, yes?
18:59	Jordach	VanessaE, hat layer does it
19:00	VanessaE	nope.avi. hat layer uses transparent/no-transparent, like tools and such. wouldn't work in your proposed cape area in the skin because many of the files already do THAT also
19:00	Jordach	i will show an example in a few
19:00	VanessaE	sorry, it just can't be done with the cape stored in the same file
19:00	Jordach	VanessaE, i meant a secondary texture file
19:00		Exio4 joined #minetest
19:00	Jordach	<Jordach> because no_cape.png is for players without a defined cape, which is in the format of player_NICK_cape.png
19:00	VanessaE	well if the cape is stored in a second texture file then it doesn't matter at all, that's perfectly fine
19:01	VanessaE	that's what I was advocating for to begin with
19:01	VanessaE	I was trying to get that into your thick skull last night but you wouldn't listen :P
19:01	VanessaE	and we already know irrlicht's multiple materials works fine
19:01	VanessaE	someone already did that for MT
19:01	VanessaE	but it was reverted because of some conflict with another pull
19:02	VanessaE	not because of some functionality problem
19:03	VanessaE	so it just needs to be character.png (or whatever the name was), clothes.png, and cape.png
19:03	VanessaE	if a file is missing, that layer remains transparent.
19:03	VanessaE	simple as that
19:04	VanessaE	if a file is sized to imply that it already contains the extra clothing layer as in a 1.8 skin, then use that first and overlay the clothes.png layer on top of it.
19:04	VanessaE	or something
19:04	VanessaE	this is all basic compositing 101 stuff that we've all had figured out for almost 30 years now. :P
19:05	Jordach	VanessaE, i'd leave clothes.png for armour for better effect
19:06	Jordach	this is the MC cape which will render the same within minetest with the proposed changes. http://www.zimagez.com/zimage/screenshot-080214-190511.php
19:08	VanessaE	well clothes.png would go under armor
19:08	Jordach	1) we should take up the 1.8 format (in 6 months time)
19:08	Jordach	because the 1.8 format solves that issue
19:08	Jordach	then we can over lay the classic format for armour
19:08	VanessaE	we should support the 1.8 format, yes, but not at the expense of losing support for the old format
19:09	Jordach	VanessaE, we should keep the 1.0 format until there are enough 1.8 skins and people request them often
19:09	VanessaE	this screenshot is of a minecraft cape file?
19:09	Jordach	VanessaE, tes
19:09	Jordach	yes*
19:09	VanessaE	ok then let's go with this
19:09	VanessaE	I see no reason not to support it
19:09	Jordach	VanessaE, there are some capes on the MCWiki
19:10	VanessaE	but as for 1.0 vs 1.8 skins, never drop the 1.0 format. why? because the 1.8 format is derived from it, so the same code would end up being used for both anyway if it's done right
19:10	Jordach	VanessaE, want me to show you what happens when you use a 1.8 skin with a model that uses the 1.0 format?
19:10	VanessaE	all you have to do is pad the 1.0 skin to 1.8 dimensions, jeez
19:11	VanessaE	but anyway I can already imagine
19:11	Jordach	VanessaE, http://www.mccapes.com/capegallery/ <- problem solved
19:12	Jordach	hm
19:12	VanessaE	we can't drop 1.0, there are way too many skins of that format.
19:12	VanessaE	nice cape gallery
19:12	VanessaE	so yeah
19:12	Jordach	VanessaE, wait 6 months
19:12	VanessaE	support the cape format, support the new skin format, keep the old skin format
19:12	Jordach	you will want this so 1.8 skins will be around
19:12	VanessaE	do some fancy footwork to make the old skin format work on a model that supports both
19:12	VanessaE	but for now,
19:12	Jordach	VanessaE, impossible
19:12	VanessaE	no, it's only impossible if you can't code.
19:12	Jordach	UV unwraps scale to the texture it was designed for
19:23	VanessaE	nope.avi
19:23	VanessaE	I've used high resolution skins on the player model just fine.
19:23	VanessaE	it's about the aspect ratio
19:24	VanessaE	not the resolution.
19:25	Jordach	VanessaE, yes
19:25	Jordach	but scaling the image will scale the UV unwrap
19:25	VanessaE	yes
19:25	VanessaE	and I'm not talking about SCALING
19:25	VanessaE	I'm talking about cavas size.
19:25	VanessaE	canvas*
19:26	VanessaE	changing the size of the canvas does not scale the image it contains.
19:26	Jordach	yes, but the UV unwrap itself will scale
19:26	Jordach	think UV unwrap points based on percentages of an image file
19:27	VanessaE	it will scale if and only if you tell it to. it's not like you can't cut the image apart in code and re-arrange it before passing it to the UV unwrap code.
19:28	Jordach	http://imgur.com/a/fsV0r
19:28	Jordach	UV unwrap float to their new positions based on the percentage they were told to sit at
19:28	VanessaE	maybe in BLENDER they do
19:28	VanessaE	this isn't blender. this is Minetest.
19:28	Jordach	VanessaE, it's true for all 3d modeling
19:28	VanessaE	wrong.
19:28	Jordach	go on
19:29	Jordach	use a 1.8 skin in minetest and get back to me
19:29	VanessaE	what do you think unwraps the skin?
19:29	VanessaE	tell me.
19:29	VanessaE	where is the code that actually says "ok, this piece goes on the right arm outside, this piece goes on the back of the head..."
19:30	VanessaE	it's part of the model, right?
19:30	Jordach	VanessaE, use a 1.8 skin with minetest and see what happens
19:30	VanessaE	answer me.
19:31	VanessaE	somewhere in the minetest engine or irrlicht is some code that reads the model file and the skin file, interprets the model, and actually performs that wrapping process and places the pieces of the texture file into their respective locations on the model so that it can be drawn in the world. THAT is the code I'm talking about changing.
19:31	VanessaE	the skin file doesn't just magically wrap itself onto the model
19:32	VanessaE	SOMEWHERE there has to be some code that is actually doing the hard work
19:32	VanessaE	I'm talking about either changing THAT code, or inserting a wedge in front of it to modify the skin before THAT code gets it
19:32	Jordach	VanessaE, place this in place of MY skin on your server, reboot: http://i.imgur.com/kZ2M08I.png
19:33	VanessaE	ANSWER ME G*DDAMN IT
19:33	Jordach	VanessaE, do i look like i fucking understand this engine
19:33	Jordach	fuck no
19:34	VanessaE	then where do you get off telling ME what I do or don't understand about 3d modelling? I DO UNDERSTAND about this stuff, even if I don't know how Minetest and irrlicht necessarily do it.
19:34	Jordach	and then revert my skin change
19:34	VanessaE	I understand how 3d modeling works at the code, model, and hardware levels.
19:34	VanessaE	I just don't know how my particular video card, minetest, etc. do it
19:35	Jordach	VanessaE, do you think in engine texture modification before it hits the render pipeline will be merged?
19:35	VanessaE	but I know how it's done (or at least how it was done in the old days)
19:35	VanessaE	no, of course not, and I'm not talking about that either.
19:35	Jordach	VanessaE, because that's what you are describing
19:35	VanessaE	I am not proposing realtime modification prior to rendering at all
19:35	VanessaE	I am proposing modification at LOAD time.
19:36	VanessaE	you have to load the G*D damned image into memory and store it somewhere.
19:36	VanessaE	CHANGE IT THEN
19:36	VanessaE	jesus
19:36	VanessaE	why is this so hard to grasp?
19:36	Jordach	VanessaE, you really think any dev will merge such a bad idea?
19:36	Jordach	just try what i said and see the results
19:37	VanessaE	which is the worse idea? adapting an older but incredibly popular skin format at load time, so that it works on a newer model that supports the newer skin format (so that we only need one model)? or maintaining two models and having all that duplicated code
19:38	Jordach	VanessaE, you need to do pixel flipping operations, copying image data, and other shit just to make it work
19:39	Jordach	can't we just do three textures and be fucking done with it
19:40	VanessaE	we already have all of those operations available to us.
19:40	VanessaE	the client is already built with libjpeg, libpng, and a few others.
19:40	Jordach	yes, and they might be processing heavy to some users
19:40	VanessaE	who cares if it's processing-heavy, this is load-time stuff, not realtime.
19:40	Jordach	VanessaE, but then you have to create Lua functions of libjpeg, libpng, libpiss
19:40	VanessaE	you honestly believe the user will even notice a few milliseconds at load-time?
19:40	VanessaE	lua functions?
19:41	VanessaE	wtf are you talking about
19:41	VanessaE	this is in-engine stuff
19:41	VanessaE	lua should never have to see this
19:42	VanessaE	I'm talking about modifying the file on the client, when it's loaded at client<->server init time, if it's detected to be the "wrong" format for the player model.
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19:43	Jordach	you'd have to modify how the entire networking works to do that
19:43	Jordach	if you're making clients do the file and re-upload it; you're thinking it wrong
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19:44	Jordach	o/
19:44	EvergreenTree	o/
19:44	Jordach	VanessaE, keep the 1.0 format and use four goddamn materials
19:44	Jordach	but i doubt people will understand how the clothes layer will work
19:44	VanessaE	what?
19:44	VanessaE	wrong again
19:45	VanessaE	I'm talking about caching the file, and modifying it when the client loads it from disk from the cache
19:45	VanessaE	the file is only ever sent once.
19:45	VanessaE	the client detects that it's the "wrong" version and tweaks it.
19:45	VanessaE	the network stack would never be touched
19:45	VanessaE	and if it is
19:45	VanessaE	you're doing it WAY wrong
19:46	Jordach	use three textures for armour, cape and actual person
19:46	VanessaE	I don't care how many materials you have to use
19:46	VanessaE	that's not the issue
19:46	VanessaE	the issue is not having to have three different model files
19:47	VanessaE	or four or however many combinations there are
19:47	Jordach	if people start requesting 1.8 skins: create a second model
19:48	VanessaE	I don't think that will go over well at all
19:48	Jordach	uhm
19:48	Jordach	i can make a edited default mod with a second model
19:48	Jordach	just /swap_model and be done with it
19:48	VanessaE	the problem is the fact that you'd have two models
19:48	VanessaE	== duplicated dats
19:48	VanessaE	data
19:49	VanessaE	== more files to be sent to clients
19:49	VanessaE	and I know of a certain mushroom in here who will balk at that idea.
19:49	Jordach	VanessaE, i meant a special mod that replaces default as a separate repo
19:49	Jordach	if you get both 1.8 and 1.0 skins, use both
19:50	Jordach	but in a years time there will be lots of 1.8 skins
19:51	VanessaE	the correct solution is to have one model file that supports the 1.8 skins + the cape, and which is stored in a different, more compact format than .x (.obj or .b3d maybe), and do some basic, very rudimentary image operations at the client side to translate old skins to fit this proposed newer player model
19:52	VanessaE	never touch the network stack, never re-transmit the skin file, just re-arrange the files as they're loaded from the cache during sign-on
19:52	Jordach	yes, there's the in code option or the less processing heavy simpler option which will help other developers who might not have used said code
19:52	VanessaE	who cares about "processing-heavy"?? even my commodore 64 could handle this kind of operation in a matter of milliseconds. come on here, we're not talking realtime rendering.
19:53	VanessaE	once the file is loaded, re-arrange it once and only once and pass it to the UV wrapping code. then and only then do you go into realtime rendering, and by then the rendering pipeline already has what it thinks is an unmodified skin. at no time do you change the skin during the rendering pipeline.
19:54	Jordach	so you want to annoy other developers who will never touch that bad bit of code because it's so goddamn badly designed?
19:55	VanessaE	do you annoy mother nature because earth's oceans are so badly designed when they flood your yard during a storm surge? or do you put the bucket away and grab a high capacity water pump?
19:55	VanessaE	when I looked at those 1.8 skins, frankly I though they were about as poorly-designed as the 1.0 format
19:55	VanessaE	but you know something?
19:56	VanessaE	the were designed the way they were to keep the image small.
19:56	VanessaE	and I know a little something about designing a skin format.
19:56	VanessaE	(as in, designing the actual layout to be used for a future program that will interpret and use the skin)
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19:57	VanessaE	and when you're up against the wall and have to keep the file compact, you do whatever the hell you have to.
19:59	Jordach	just because the Rube Goldberg machine looks cool, doesn't mean it should be used for everyday use
20:00	VanessaE	maybe not, but when so many people use that Rube Goldberg machine that it's the only thing anyone makes any feedstock for, do you go trying to invent a new machine that takes the-same-but-not-quite-compatible feedstock, or do you change to a different kind, or do you make sure your machine can take exactly the same kind?
20:01	Jordach	i want two machines to handle one of each type
20:01	VanessaE	logic says you make your machine take the same feedstock as the other one, even if your machine is BETTER.
20:01	VanessaE	car analogy time:
20:01	VanessaE	do you make your car run on petrol or alcohol?
20:02	VanessaE	(just assume for the moment that we're talking ICE)
20:02	Jordach	petrol engines can run on fries fat
20:03	VanessaE	the answer should be obvious, and for the same reason - you make it run on petrol (even if you can make that petrol from fry oil), because everyone and their Uncle Medwick has the stuff for sale on every street corner.
20:03	VanessaE	and btw, only diesel engines can run on fry oil
20:03	VanessaE	petrol engines can't without heavy modifications,
20:04	VanessaE	but fry oil can be processed into petrol
20:04	Jordach	VanessaE, 1) keep the 1.0 MC skins, have 4 materials for each part, t-shirt + hat, armour, cape and jacket
20:04	VanessaE	I forget how, something involving borax I think
20:05	Jordach	2) make a 1.8 model, but only if the user requests it
20:05	VanessaE	good luck getting the core devs to agree to that. two models is gonna be a non-starter, I'm certain of it.
20:06	Jordach	VanessaE, then let me fork default on it's own
20:07	Jordach	and customise it just for your own server
20:07	Jordach	fixing the fucking inherent issues
20:07	VanessaE	john_minetest: I'd say those fit nicely into the category of "heavy modifications" :)
20:07	VanessaE	Jordach: fork if you want, it's not like I can stop you :)
20:07	xiong	Once more, I'm talking about the public good. I don't want to start a discussion of that here but if you have an interest in something larger than yourself and a few friends, then please join the discussion in #athens. Thank you.
20:07	Jordach	VanessaE, supporting both is the most wise idea possible
20:08	VanessaE	I'm just saying you fucked up with the cape thing. it needs un-fucked right away
20:08	Jordach	VanessaE, then let me fix it with the hybrid 1.8 and 1.0 models with 3 and 4 materials each
20:09	VanessaE	Jordach: then fix it, just don't fuck up 75% of the skins in my database and don't expect me to post-process any of the skins my players send me. I have enough work to do as it is.
20:09	VanessaE	that's ALL i ask
20:09	VanessaE	(besides making sure I can actually apply the skins easily of course)
20:09	Jordach	VanessaE, then why were you making pointless discussion about formatting when i could have solved it hours ago
20:09	Jordach	with a simple model flip
20:10	Jordach	but i'll need to look into 1.8 model persistance after said person logs out (zeg's skins mod will help)
20:10	VanessaE	Jordach: because I'm trying to save you some work - if you propose putting two models into default, some people will yell. still you have to make sure that it can be set on a per-player basis.
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20:11	Jordach	VanessaE, have a inventory button or a command to flip between models
20:11	VanessaE	an inventory button?
20:11	Jordach	1.8 skin format / 1.0 skin format
20:11	VanessaE	in UI?
20:11	VanessaE	dead issue.
20:11	Jordach	in the normal minetest inventory at your server
20:11	VanessaE	I run six servers.
20:11	Jordach	VanessaE, vanilla doesn't run UI
20:12	VanessaE	I know.
20:12	Jordach	i could always add a node that allows it (9 dirt anyone?)
20:12	VanessaE	if you'd just make it auto-detect, all I'd have to do is drop the file in.
20:12	Jordach	VanessaE, you could with os.execute...
20:12	VanessaE	why is this so hard?
20:13	VanessaE	the server has the file, so it can already know which model it has to set for that player
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20:13	VanessaE	kaeza did this with signs_lib
20:14	VanessaE	it auto-detects the font resolution
20:14	Jordach	show me the code
20:14	VanessaE	and automatically adjusts the scale of the signs overlay entity to fit
20:14	VanessaE	https://github.com/VanessaE/homedecor_modpack/blob/master/signs_lib/init.lua#L53
20:15	VanessaE	idk how you'd do it with a jpg but I'm sure it would be similar - but obviously you'd rather the engine just tell you the image resolution directly,.
20:16	Jordach	minetest.get_image_size("texture.png") <- returns bool
20:16	VanessaE	(besides it would HAVE to be PNG anyway, alpha)
20:16	Jordach	returns two vars in table format*
20:16	VanessaE	could be.
20:16	Jordach	VanessaE, auto detect would go wrong with high-res skins
20:17	VanessaE	why?
20:17	Jordach	think about it
20:17	VanessaE	all you need is the aspect.
20:17	VanessaE	you don't have to give a shit about the actual resolution.
20:17	VanessaE	just read the rez, calculate the aspect ratio, make your decision based on that.
20:17	Jordach	minetest.get_texture_aspect("texture.png") <- returns string "1:2"
20:18	Jordach	VanessaE, you could always install imagemagick on your vps
20:18	VanessaE	the aspect ratio will never change regardless of the resolution, even if it's 2048x1024, it would still clearly be a 1.0 skin
20:18	VanessaE	and btw aspect is always reported as H:V
20:18	VanessaE	so 2:1
20:18	Jordach	VanessaE, identify rose.jpg \n rose.jpg JPEG 640x480 sRGB 87kb 0.050u 0:01
20:19	VanessaE	nope.avi
20:19	VanessaE	won't work for windows users
20:19	VanessaE	whatever is done here needs to be platform-agnostic
20:20	Jordach	VanessaE, not if it's designed for your goddamn server
20:21	Jordach	if they want to make it platform independant, their problem
20:21	Jordach	there's such a thing called forking
20:21	specing	proller: someone has been playing with explosives on Road lately
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20:22	sfan5	Jordach: you just want to get the image size from it's file, right?
20:22	Jordach	mhm
20:22	sfan5	you can do that for jpg in lua
20:22	VanessaE	I don't want anything "designed for my G*ddamned server".
20:22	Jordach	then i won't bother fixing the mess i made
20:22	VanessaE	what I ask for is something that is platform agnostic that EVERYONE can use
20:22	VanessaE	jeez
20:23	VanessaE	sfan5: see my link. kaeza wrote that code, works pretty good too
20:23	sfan5	VanessaE: s/pretty good/perfect for any standard-conform png/
20:24	VanessaE	sfan5: indeed so; it is only used with some files where I can be sure the files are conforment, now that you mention it, however doesn't a PNG have to have the rez in the fields so indicated?
20:25	VanessaE	I mean, literally it won't work if those fields are not correct?
20:25	Jordach	real0m0.003s
20:27	VanessaE	Jordach: then revert your patch and put JUST the Sam II skin in.
20:27	VanessaE	I already did that for my servers.
20:27	VanessaE	(by way of using Taoki's suggested fix)
20:27	sfan5	VanessaE: http://www.w3.org/TR/PNG/#table53 IHDR should always be the first chunk
20:27		PilzAdam joined #minetest
20:28	sfan5	so they way kaeze does should work for every conform png file
20:28	VanessaE	sfan5: OH ok, I thought you were implying that it would fail for some weirdly-formatted files :)
20:28	VanessaE	where the hell IS kaeza anyway?
20:28	sfan5	!seen kaeza
20:28	MinetestBot	sfan5: kaeza was last seen at 2014-01-23 00:43:32 UTC on #minetest
20:28	sfan5	hm
20:29	VanessaE	!seen diemartin
20:29	MinetestBot	VanessaE: diemartin was last seen at 2014-01-22 02:52:04 UTC on #minetest
20:29	VanessaE	how many aaa's in his other nick?
20:29	sfan5	dunno
20:30	VanessaE	!seen blaa*argh
20:30	MinetestBot	VanessaE: Sorry, I haven't seen blaa*argh around.
20:30	VanessaE	bah
20:30	us_0gb	Enough to make him hard to find.
20:30	VanessaE	it was worth a try :)
20:33	sfan5	VanessaE: 5 a's
20:33	sfan5	!seen blaaaaargh
20:33	MinetestBot	sfan5: blaaaaargh was last seen at 2014-01-20 18:58:57 UTC on #minetest
20:33	VanessaE	well that was real useful :P
20:34	Jordach	!seen kaeza\|toaster
20:34	MinetestBot	Jordach: Sorry, I haven't seen kaeza\|toaster around.
20:36		mrtux joined #minetest
20:46	Jordach	Exio4, https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?pid=129089#p129089
20:48		Cerise joined #minetest
20:53	Exio4	aw
20:53	Exio4	offtopic
20:53	Jordach	when did minetest work with PulseAudio??? http://www.zimagez.com/zimage/screenshot-080214-205244.php
20:53		playzooki joined #minetest
20:58		Maxou56800 joined #minetest
20:58	Maxou56800	o/
20:59		blaze joined #minetest
20:59	playzooki	hi
21:05		EvergreenTree joined #minetest
21:05		EvergreenTree joined #minetest
21:06	VanessaE	hey playzooki.
21:07	* Exio4	is sad
21:07	EvergreenTree	aww, be happy!
21:08	Exio4	we got back to over 36C temps
21:08		farlepet joined #minetest
21:08	Exio4	that means lower frequency!
21:08	Exio4	(also known as stock frequencies)
21:08	Exio4	or i should by good fans
21:09	Exio4	watercooling is expensive and buying cheap WC means shitty cooling
21:09	EvergreenTree	yeah
21:09	EvergreenTree	h100i is on my dream list
21:09	EvergreenTree	:P
21:10	EvergreenTree	I was looking at the Cooler Master Hyper 212 EVO 82.9
21:12	Exio4	hey, i know dreaming is nice
21:12	Exio4	i have in my TODO list an UPS, decent PSU, an 8320, watercooling, 32gb of 1600mhz ram
21:13	Exio4	TODO means "Today i wOn't get it but i will have it someDay Or somewhen"
21:13	Exio4	:D
21:14	harrison	?!
21:14	harrison	I have a Cooler Master keyboard
21:14	harrison	with MX Green switches
21:15	harrison	the clicking is very noticeable
21:15	Exio4	cooler master keyboard? what is the use of it
21:15	Exio4	;P
21:16		Gethiox2 joined #minetest
21:16	harrison	it is a keyboard
21:16	harrison	one types with it
21:16	harrison	you must be familiar with the concept
21:16	harrison	but this one goes to 11
21:16	harrison	clickwise
21:17	harrison	http://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_list&m=22
21:18	Jordach	>but this one goes to 11
21:18	Jordach	love the spinal tap reference
21:23	Exio4	who cares about keyboards when you have a cpu overclocked to 5.25ghz?
21:34		nore joined #minetest
21:41		us_0gb joined #minetest
21:42	playzooki	who cares about keyboards when youve got a laptop
21:42	Jordach	who cares when you have a life?
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22:18		jimmy_ joined #minetest
22:18	jimmy_	does anyone know about the /bring command?
22:21	Jordach	jimmy_, the bring allows anyone with teleport priv to teleport other players to you
22:24	jimmy_	How is it used?
22:24	Jordach	/teleport playera playerb
22:25	EvergreenTree	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBPVT12X_8w
22:25	EvergreenTree	\o/
22:25	EvergreenTree	!title
22:25	MinetestBot	EvergreenTree: [Minetest]It's bigger on the inside... - YouTube
22:28	EvergreenTree	Think the tardis, but in minetest
22:31		Enke joined #minetest
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22:46		Octupuslegs joined #minetest
22:47	Octupuslegs	Hello
22:49	EvergreenTree	olleh
22:49	EvergreenTree	:D
23:07	MinetestBot	GIT: kwolekr commited to minetest/minetest: Make flag strings clear specified flag with 'no' prefix 83bafbe08b 2014-02-08T14:50:59-08:00 http://git.io/rJolYg
23:10		JamesTait joined #minetest
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23:23	Jordach	i should take up starship design
23:23	Jordach	http://www.zimagez.com/zimage/screenshot-080214-232320.php
23:24	Jordach	EvergreenTree, ^
23:25		iqualfragile joined #minetest
23:32	MinetestBot	GIT: kwolekr commited to minetest/minetest: Tune block emerge and sending parameters to more aggressive values 57710520dc 2014-02-08T15:32:12-08:00 http://git.io/V-_D4Q
23:39	PilzAdam	sfan5, cotton is part of default: https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?id=8530
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