| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 00:00 |
Fixer |
i expect mapping kit to just work after crafting it and placing in inventory |
| 00:00 |
Fixer |
use is good |
| 00:00 |
Fixer |
you can enable or disable with it |
| 00:00 |
Fixer |
but for usability it should enable minimap right away |
| 00:01 |
Fixer |
mapping kit description should have some hints? |
| 00:02 |
rubenwardy |
-> #-dev |
| 00:02 |
rubenwardy |
(that's look in dev, not move there) |
| 00:02 |
paramat |
no, searching through all players inventories can't be done too often, but i could reduce it in my edit, for now, to reduce complaints |
| 00:03 |
Fixer |
sorry if i sounded somewhat rude, but it is _confusing_, it should _just work_ in _obvious way_ :( |
| 00:03 |
paramat |
what you expect needs to be coded, you want to do it? |
| 00:03 |
Fixer |
sure, will learn cpp in 50 years |
| 00:03 |
rubenwardy |
C++ isn't that hard to learn |
| 00:03 |
Fixer |
on my todo list |
| 00:04 |
rubenwardy |
you just need to start programming |
| 00:04 |
Fixer |
rubenwardy: procrastination is hard, and i don't like programming that much |
| 00:04 |
Fixer |
i simply do not feel like it is for me |
| 00:04 |
rubenwardy |
heh, fair I guess |
| 00:04 |
Fixer |
some people like it |
| 00:04 |
Fixer |
i'm not |
| 00:04 |
Fixer |
i have to report bugs on other hand |
| 00:04 |
Fixer |
or it will be fucked up |
| 00:05 |
Fixer |
it is how OSS works, at least post bugreport, if you don't code |
| 00:05 |
Fixer |
and if you code - write a patch |
| 00:05 |
Fixer |
simple |
| 00:06 |
Fixer |
just don't forget usability, or it will gives bad impression |
| 00:06 |
Fixer |
and there will be more comments "about my brother can code this in 5 minutes, so s---" |
| 00:06 |
|
Megaf joined #minetest-hub |
| 00:06 |
paramat |
maybe i will remove the 'use' action to avoid all the whining |
| 00:07 |
paramat |
and reduce the interval, for now, until we add inventory callbacks |
| 00:07 |
Fixer |
craft mapkit -> it is inventory? - yes - enable minimap right away |
| 00:07 |
Fixer |
no mapkit - disable minimap |
| 00:07 |
paramat |
well duh yes, as if we didn't know that was ideal |
| 00:07 |
Fixer |
tbh minimap is suboptimal, i'm not sure if thats RBA fault, but fps penalty is huge on my hardware (about 30%) |
| 00:07 |
paramat |
yeah |
| 00:08 |
Fixer |
or even 40% |
| 00:08 |
Fixer |
it is very visible |
| 00:08 |
Fixer |
and affects gameplay |
| 00:08 |
Fixer |
I don't play with, only during some very needed times |
| 00:09 |
Fixer |
with minimap |
| 00:09 |
paramat |
i think it was optimised recently? but still bad |
| 00:09 |
Fixer |
it was, but fps hit is ridiculous |
| 00:09 |
Fixer |
now see it from player perspective |
| 00:09 |
Fixer |
2017 |
| 00:09 |
paramat |
unless it is disabled completely in settings it has an effect whether visible or not |
| 00:10 |
Fixer |
oh, there are no tools in hands @ oh cool minimap @ hours of googling how to turn on damn thing @ oh half of fps is gone |
| 00:11 |
Fixer |
there very little interest in mtg, only few people working on it, with relatively closed development, this only slow downs it |
| 00:11 |
Fixer |
its development* |
| 00:12 |
Fixer |
you want dev team to be small, but with OSS that ends up with everyone just AFK and it is dead |
| 00:12 |
Fixer |
some cinic may say MTG is dead since like 2012 |
| 00:12 |
Fixer |
but CARTS in 2016 |
| 00:12 |
Fixer |
so revolutionary |
| 00:12 |
Fixer |
exits into minecraft right away* |
| 00:13 |
Fixer |
* probable scenario |
| 00:13 |
paramat |
it's not quiet because we want it to be, don't complain about lack of dev time. i have MTG stuff coming for 0.5 |
| 00:13 |
rubenwardy |
the problem is that MTG is trying to be targeted at everyone, which meant that it is kept very bland and so doesn't fit anyone |
| 00:14 |
Fixer |
mtg is incomplete |
| 00:14 |
paramat |
stop measuring us to MC standards, we are not mojang |
| 00:15 |
Fixer |
wait a second |
| 00:15 |
paramat |
stop being so negative |
| 00:15 |
|
paramat left #minetest-hub |
| 00:15 |
Fixer |
iirc mc developer was alone when he developed most of it, during alpha/beta etc |
| 00:16 |
Fixer |
and beta was light years ahead of current mtg, done by one person |
| 00:16 |
Fixer |
and mtg is 6 years old roughly |
| 00:17 |
Fixer |
ok, by very small team |
| 00:17 |
Fixer |
he worked alone before sept 2010 roughly |
| 00:19 |
Fixer |
since mc beta they had few people |
| 00:19 |
Fixer |
to work on it |
| 00:19 |
Fixer |
i will read more on mc history |
| 00:21 |
Fixer |
too bad very few players and developers participates in this |
| 00:21 |
Fixer |
very little input = chaotic output |
| 00:23 |
Megaf |
Fixer, they dont even take the input of a single player |
| 00:23 |
Megaf |
Imagine if they had a lot of input |
| 00:24 |
rubenwardy |
no one gives us any input, except "MTG isn't complete" and "add mobs" |
| 00:25 |
Shara |
Difficult to give input when desired direction isn't known |
| 00:26 |
rubenwardy |
that is the main problem, MTG is targeted at everyone and so no-one |
| 00:26 |
Megaf |
that ^ |
| 00:26 |
Shara |
If I knew a certan type of thing was wanted, I could possibly try and help more |
| 00:27 |
rubenwardy |
and there is resistance against MTG becoming a game |
| 00:27 |
Shara |
At least a couple of devs seemed interested in my handholds mod, but nothing came of it. |
| 00:27 |
rubenwardy |
did you make it into a PR? |
| 00:28 |
Shara |
And I'd imagine there are plenty of mods like that that a couple of devs have been interested in, but were never more seriously considered |
| 00:28 |
Megaf |
Shara, link to mod please |
| 00:28 |
Shara |
https://github.com/Ezhh/handholds |
| 00:28 |
Shara |
I'm not even 100% sure it would be right to add myself. |
| 00:29 |
Shara |
But to me at least, it would be nice if the player gained tools that let them do more. |
| 00:30 |
Shara |
So if not this, similar things perhaps. |
| 00:33 |
Shara |
But again, it depends if you actually want MTG to include player progression beyond upgrading the same set of tools from one metal to another |
| 00:34 |
Shara |
(many of which are skippable at that) |
| 00:38 |
Shara |
And no, didn't make a PR, mostly because I'm still unsure myself if it would be right. |
| 00:48 |
Megaf |
Im not sure handholds is something to be added to the default game |
| 00:48 |
Megaf |
I think it doesnt fit |
| 00:48 |
* Shara |
shurgs |
| 00:48 |
Shara |
Then work out what does |
| 00:48 |
Megaf |
its a great adition to servers, its very nice to have it as a mod anyone can add |
| 00:48 |
Megaf |
I just dont think it fits for a default game |
| 00:49 |
Megaf |
beside, most hill and moutains have at least one layer of dirt and sand |
| 00:49 |
Megaf |
how do you manage them? |
| 00:49 |
Shara |
It's not meant to remove all difficulty |
| 00:49 |
Megaf |
Shara, dont get me wrong please, Im really impressed by the mod |
| 00:50 |
Megaf |
its fantastic really |
| 00:50 |
Megaf |
its just too much for default, IMHO |
| 00:50 |
Megaf |
because we dont have any tool like it |
| 00:50 |
Shara |
Megaf: I really don't mind if you think it fits or not. |
| 00:50 |
Shara |
Please don't feel like you have to compliment the mod to avoid hurting my feelings :P |
| 00:51 |
Shara |
It was, I think Stu, who suggested it, and a couple of the devs talked about it. |
| 00:51 |
Megaf |
heh, I know |
| 00:51 |
Shara |
But the problem is, if you say "this doesn't fit because there's nothing like it", then MTG will never have anything thats different from what it has |
| 00:52 |
Megaf |
we got to a loop |
| 00:52 |
Shara |
So it will never be a "game" and the complaints about how boring it is just carry on |
| 00:52 |
Megaf |
Shara, well, Im working on something here, will show you when its ready |
| 00:55 |
Shara |
It's up to the devs anyway, not us |
| 01:33 |
* Shara |
wonders what Megaf is working on |
| 01:34 |
|
tumeninodes joined #minetest-hub |
| 01:34 |
Shara |
Hi tumeninodes |
| 01:35 |
tumeninodes |
Hi Shara |
| 01:36 |
tumeninodes |
I've been trying out an older mod https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=9937&hilit=nnt anyone remember this one? |
| 01:36 |
Shara |
Hmm, never even heard of it before :) |
| 01:37 |
tumeninodes |
there are like 4 or 5 versions ha |
| 01:37 |
tumeninodes |
currently, this one does not play nice with the falling node code of built_in |
| 01:38 |
tumeninodes |
game crashes if you get a large drop of sand or gravel (in creative anyway)... working on it |
| 01:38 |
Shara |
Mods not playing nice... had my share of that today :) |
| 01:39 |
Shara |
Formspecs and detached inventories.. no fun. |
| 01:39 |
tumeninodes |
hahaha... poor Shara |
| 01:39 |
tumeninodes |
Formspecs get such a bad rap |
| 01:39 |
Shara |
Horrible horrible things |
| 01:40 |
Shara |
Cant resize height of buttons! |
| 01:40 |
tumeninodes |
I assume now when someone says "Formspecs" you twitch? |
| 01:40 |
Shara |
Pretty much |
| 01:40 |
Shara |
Please don't spam it! |
| 01:40 |
tumeninodes |
PFSD |
| 01:41 |
Shara |
Heh |
| 01:46 |
Megaf |
meh, I was expecting an error in the thing Im working on but it went perfectly first try |
| 01:46 |
Megaf |
oh well... |
| 01:46 |
tumeninodes |
Megaf... it's a trap, be careful :P |
| 01:48 |
Shara |
Megaf: what is the thing? |
| 01:48 |
Shara |
You can have my inventory errors for me, if you want errors? |
| 01:49 |
Megaf |
Shara, almost ready |
| 01:49 |
Shara |
But I'm about to sleep :P |
| 01:50 |
|
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| 01:51 |
Megaf |
aha! hot an error! |
| 01:52 |
Megaf |
Shara, almost |
| 01:52 |
Megaf |
30 seconds |
| 01:52 |
Megaf |
Shara, there http://git.megaf.info/Megaf/game_data/releases |
| 01:52 |
Megaf |
Shara, extract to games... |
| 01:53 |
Megaf |
basically the idea is wipe the idea of subgame |
| 01:53 |
Megaf |
and have a game called Minetest |
| 01:53 |
Shara |
Hmmm |
| 01:53 |
Megaf |
with useful mods by default |
| 01:53 |
Megaf |
so you dont game minetest_game inside Minetest |
| 01:53 |
Shara |
But again, you need to decide which are useful |
| 01:53 |
Shara |
And need some kind of mod store type feature |
| 01:53 |
Megaf |
you have Minetest and inside a data folder, where the game files are |
| 01:53 |
Shara |
Or... I don't know really |
| 01:54 |
Megaf |
and I made a decision of the mods we need for a proper and complete game |
| 01:54 |
Megaf |
all there |
| 01:55 |
Megaf |
theres a little bug there tho, will fix tomorrow |
| 01:56 |
Megaf |
bascailly the look and fill is Minetest Vanilla |
| 01:56 |
Megaf |
but it has a crafting guide |
| 01:56 |
Megaf |
and some nice commands, like /sit and /lay |
| 01:57 |
Megaf |
and mobs |
| 01:57 |
Megaf |
Still have to find a nice village mod to add |
| 01:57 |
Shara |
you have two inventory mods :P |
| 01:57 |
Shara |
Well stay away from mg_villages. One server I help on has been testing it out and.. chaos |
| 01:59 |
Megaf |
this is how game_data is made and born http://git.megaf.info/Megaf/Minetest_Next_Maker |
| 01:59 |
Megaf |
quick and dirty hack |
| 01:59 |
Shara |
Hmm, anyway, sleep needed. |
| 02:00 |
Shara |
Good night, Megaf the Tiger |
| 02:00 |
Megaf |
night |
| 02:01 |
ThomasMonroe |
sounds like something thats been missing from Minetest |
| 02:05 |
Megaf |
well, no longer, I just made the draft for the solution |
| 02:05 |
Megaf |
and keep in mind, we dont remove anything from the current idea |
| 02:06 |
Megaf |
keep flexible, keep the subgames thing and mod store |
| 02:06 |
Megaf |
we just add game_data and ship/bundle it with Minetest |
| 02:06 |
Megaf |
instead of the minimal thing |
| 02:06 |
Megaf |
and we call game_data simply Minetest |
| 02:16 |
Megaf |
we still have to sort the singleplayer thing |
| 02:23 |
|
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| 02:24 |
Megaf |
latest version of Minetest by Megaf http://git.megaf.info/attachments/35536f59-431c-4f4f-8ff1-62459fb8c466 |
| 02:24 |
Megaf |
extract in games |
| 02:25 |
Megaf |
It's backwards compatible with minetest_game |
| 02:25 |
Megaf |
http://git.megaf.info/Megaf/game_data/releases |
| 02:26 |
Megaf |
theres still one typo, oh well |
| 03:03 |
ThomasMonroe |
gnight all |
| 03:04 |
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| 05:43 |
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nerzhul joined #minetest-hub |
| 06:20 |
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| 07:40 |
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Krock joined #minetest-hub |
| 07:47 |
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nerzhul joined #minetest-hub |
| 07:48 |
Krock |
🰠Happy 4th birthday, forum account 🎉 |
| 07:48 |
nerzhul |
Krock, happy birthday 3 october 2013 :D |
| 07:48 |
Krock |
hello nerzhul :) |
| 07:49 |
nerzhul |
hello Krock , how are you ? |
| 07:49 |
Krock |
daily being-tired-in-the-morning-but-awake-feeling |
| 07:49 |
nerzhul |
i'm currently working on unreliable part for the network rework, it's not complete yet, then unreliable packet are not received :) |
| 07:49 |
nerzhul |
lol :) |
| 07:49 |
Krock |
call me when I should test it :) |
| 07:50 |
nerzhul |
you can test it now if you want, just server will not handle movement packets and client will not handle AOMsg flagged as unreliable :p |
| 07:51 |
Krock |
the more testing results, the better, as an additional dependency must bring some benefits |
| 07:51 |
nerzhul |
exact |
| 07:51 |
Krock |
is the double free error solved yet? otherwise I can't connect to your server |
| 07:51 |
nerzhul |
i fixed some shutdown part, but i don't get time to fix the server force cleint disconnect |
| 07:51 |
nerzhul |
it's fixed it seems |
| 07:51 |
Krock |
ok |
| 07:52 |
nerzhul |
i have a crash at server shutdown to fix which happens on minetestserver binary, and sometimes on client |
| 07:52 |
nerzhul |
you should update your source tree to ensure it works properly |
| 07:52 |
nerzhul |
now the client send periodical UDP ping to server like old protocol to permit server to send unreliable packets, but it's not totally working (disabled atm) |
| 07:53 |
nerzhul |
the ping is handled, server session records UDP endpoint but server is currently unable to answer to the endpoint, i think the udp::socket object is not the right object, because not linked with later setted udp endpoint |
| 07:56 |
nerzhul |
the code is stable except the shutdown of server, client and the socket disconnection from one of the endpoints |
| 07:56 |
Krock |
heh, client gets disconnected when trying to join your server |
| 07:56 |
nerzhul |
oh you crash my server |
| 07:57 |
Krock |
sorry :3 |
| 07:57 |
nerzhul |
no problem, i didn't tested my today work on my remote server atm |
| 07:57 |
nerzhul |
i launched it with gdb can you retry ? |
| 07:57 |
nerzhul |
i need the trace :) |
| 07:57 |
Krock |
got it? |
| 07:57 |
nerzhul |
yeah |
| 07:58 |
nerzhul |
error when creating udp::socket |
| 08:02 |
|
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| 08:12 |
nerzhul |
Krock, can you retry please ? |
| 08:13 |
nerzhul |
(i cannot i'm at work) |
| 08:45 |
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| 08:47 |
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| 08:49 |
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| 09:31 |
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| 09:35 |
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| 09:59 |
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| 10:13 |
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| 10:14 |
IhrFussel |
Why are you guys saying the mini map reduces FPS by 30-40% I see nothing like that and my PC is from 2009 ... no matter if I enable or disable the map I get maybe -3 FPS |
| 10:15 |
sfan5 |
depends on the hardware most likely |
| 10:16 |
IhrFussel |
Maybe it also depends on the ridiculous high view range some of you use (150+) |
| 10:17 |
IhrFussel |
I'm happy with 50, I don't need to see what's far away |
| 10:20 |
ThomasMonroe |
actually no, it does reduce FPS i run on avg 30 FPS, but when i have the mini-map on it goes down to about 15 or less |
| 10:20 |
ThomasMonroe |
granted i am on a 10 or more year old computer |
| 10:22 |
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Fixer joined #minetest-hub |
| 10:31 |
IhrFussel |
ThomasMonroe, I see almost zero difference between mini map on/off and I don't believe it's because my PC is "new" it is from 2009 "Pentium(R) Dual-Core CPU E5200 @ 2.50GHz" |
| 10:32 |
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| 10:32 |
IhrFussel |
What's your viewing range? Does reducing it improve mini map performance? |
| 10:34 |
Fixer |
IhrFussel: what is your fps? |
| 10:34 |
ThomasMonroe |
my veiwing range is typically less than 30 |
| 10:35 |
IhrFussel |
Fixer, I'm standing inside a built city so FPS drop a bit but with and without map 38 FPS |
| 10:36 |
IhrFussel |
If I look up to the sky it's constant 60 |
| 10:36 |
Amaz |
IhrFussel: Are you enabling/disabling the minimap in .conf, or just hiding it with f9? |
| 10:37 |
Fixer |
IhrFussel: try walking |
| 10:37 |
Fixer |
minimap gives huge fps hit when you walk |
| 10:37 |
Fixer |
not just standing |
| 10:37 |
ThomasMonroe |
IhRFussel, my computer is an old CF-29 single core with 1.5GB RAM |
| 10:38 |
Calinou |
hi |
| 10:39 |
Calinou |
a nice writeup on image compression/optimization (targeted at the Web, but relevant for other fields too): https://images.guide/ |
| 10:39 |
IhrFussel |
I disabled the map in advanced settings...the average FPS go from 38 to 43 but that's not 30% |
| 10:40 |
IhrFussel |
Maybe you guys have other software running in the background?`I have only hexchat and minetest opened right now |
| 10:41 |
rubenwardy |
I don't get much of a hit from minimap |
| 10:41 |
rubenwardy |
but then I'm at 60 most of the time, accept in a city |
| 10:43 |
IhrFussel |
Does it really differ that much between CPUs? I mean it can't be the GPU as I'm using the on-board one |
| 10:43 |
Calinou |
on my server, I get 132 FPS vs 139 FPS (minimap on/off) in a "busy" area |
| 10:43 |
Calinou |
in a less busy area, 164 FPS vs 174 FPS |
| 10:44 |
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| 10:44 |
IhrFussel |
Calinou, yea that sounds about the right drop but somebody mentioned 30-40% drop |
| 10:44 |
Calinou |
the "easier" the area is to render for the CPU/GPU, the more FPS you'll lose with the minimap enabled |
| 10:44 |
rubenwardy |
but but, eyes don't see faster than 132 FPS |
| 10:44 |
rubenwardy |
you don't need 139 FPS |
| 10:44 |
Calinou |
true, it's very good to have 132 FPS for a Minecraft-style game already |
| 10:51 |
IhrFussel |
Fixer, to answer your question: Nope the FPS when I walk tend to jump a lot but never below 35 FPS (when standing 38) |
| 10:52 |
IhrFussel |
Like I said maybe it depends on view range too as I don't need 100+ |
| 10:52 |
Fixer |
maybe that huge hit has the answer = ATI |
| 10:54 |
Calinou |
ATI is no longer a thing since 2006 :P |
| 10:56 |
Calinou |
I don't know how people play with short view ranges, I really dislike < 150 myself |
| 10:56 |
Calinou |
and I play with 250 on my desktop |
| 10:56 |
Calinou |
and (IIRC) 150 on my laptop |
| 10:56 |
Calinou |
I mean, Minecraft defaults to 256 |
| 10:59 |
IhrFussel |
Calinou, Priorities...since my PC is from 2009 I'd rather have more fluent FPS vs large range and stutter |
| 11:00 |
IhrFussel |
I mean it is still playable at 100 or 150 for me but I don't see the importance in it...you can't interact with the world 150 nodes away anyway |
| 11:02 |
Shara |
Fussel, I don't know how I could ever enjoy playing at 50... you see so little |
| 11:03 |
IhrFussel |
On my older PC (Celeron) I played @ 20 cause everything else dropped the FPS below 15 |
| 11:03 |
Shara |
I usually have range at somewhere between 180 to 250 ish |
| 11:03 |
Shara |
I adjust it pretty often, but don't usually go under that unless I'm in a seriously built up area |
| 11:03 |
IhrFussel |
I don't need to *see* so far as long as I can just walk in a direction and everything loads sooner or later |
| 11:03 |
Shara |
Yea, but I like to see what's been built |
| 11:04 |
Shara |
50 wouldn't even let me look at how most of my own buildings appear from outside |
| 11:04 |
IhrFussel |
Well there is still the R key which I use regularly for big projects to look at them |
| 11:06 |
IhrFussel |
If you had my PC you'd probably also reduce the view range... If I have the choice between 200 view range and 30+ FPS I'd rather choose the FPS |
| 11:08 |
Shara |
Yea, I understand that |
| 11:08 |
Shara |
Just it would reduce how much I enjoy the game by a pretty huge amount |
| 11:08 |
Shara |
I can image being just about okay with 100 if needed |
| 11:10 |
IhrFussel |
Well I guess I just *accepted* the fact that my PC (even this newer one) isn't the best and I need to compromize some things for my enjoyment xP |
| 11:31 |
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| 11:32 |
Fixer |
Calinou: you have high end PC, go to smth like Hometown spawn and you now have 30 fps |
| 11:32 |
Fixer |
and you need i7 to handle that crap |
| 11:35 |
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| 11:51 |
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| 11:55 |
lisac |
greetings! |
| 12:35 |
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| 12:59 |
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| 13:10 |
IhrFussel |
If I place a HUD where the mini map is I'm guessing the mini map will hide the HUD |
| 13:40 |
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| 14:22 |
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| 14:29 |
IhrFussel |
Do any of you if the MT license (LGPL 2.1+) permits to use non-commercial music on the server? |
| 14:29 |
IhrFussel |
of you know* |
| 14:32 |
Krock |
well, it's not directly content of Minetest itself.. |
| 14:32 |
Krock |
a lawyer could give you a good answer for this - which I'm not |
| 14:33 |
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| 14:33 |
Krock |
NC-licensed textures also have been used in the past, so *shrig* |
| 14:33 |
Krock |
\**shrug* |
| 14:37 |
IhrFussel |
I'm asking in ##law ... they say if I don't charge for any services it should count as non-commercial |
| 14:37 |
IhrFussel |
Or if I don't make any kind of profit with it (ads, donations etc) |
| 14:38 |
Shara |
Makes yu wonder a bit about where the apps that do make profit come in... |
| 14:38 |
Shara |
you* |
| 14:40 |
IhrFussel |
Well in that case the app developers make the profit... I still don't earn any money with my server |
| 14:40 |
jas_ |
i'm thinking the lgpl doesn't care what music you play on your server |
| 14:41 |
Shara |
FUssel, of course. Just feels messy. :) |
| 14:41 |
IhrFussel |
jas_, But there's lots of free music that you cannot use commercially like www.jamendo.com |
| 14:42 |
jas_ |
is your server a commercial enterprise? does the gpl have anything to do with this? |
| 14:43 |
IhrFussel |
Well the music will be integrated into the MT engine so I thought the MT license likely applies |
| 14:43 |
jas_ |
if you're modifying lgpl software, that is different |
| 14:43 |
jas_ |
you must redistribute if asked, and allow changes. you cannot afford those privs if you're using NC content |
| 14:48 |
jas_ |
for a good example of separation of gpl and nc assets, see doom, quake, etc |
| 14:57 |
IhrFussel |
Well the "lawyers" told me that if the server doesn't intend to make any profit from the music I'm good to go...I also explained to them the problem with ad-infested/paywalls implemented clone apps and they said since I cannot control those clients it's probably just their problem if the client of them plays non-commercial music |
| 14:58 |
jas_ |
ianal |
| 14:58 |
jas_ |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/6485/files#diff-95e351a3805a1dafa85bf20b81d086e6R256 |
| 14:58 |
jas_ |
I don't get this, am I supoosed to enter a new option on cmake? i did install libasio-dev |
| 14:58 |
jas_ |
1.10.8 on deb9 |
| 14:59 |
jas_ |
like i said, i doubt the gpl cares about the music you play on your server; even if there are others connecting to it with violated software |
| 14:59 |
jas_ |
*gasp* |
| 15:00 |
IhrFussel |
I think the LGPL does allow commercial use but even if it does my server doesn't use that right |
| 15:01 |
IhrFussel |
Or priv* |
| 15:01 |
jas_ |
i know, and i specifically didn't want to mention that about the lgpl. regardless, at the end of the day, the question of your musical preferences probably doesn't matter on iota |
| 15:03 |
IhrFussel |
I mean the law wouldn't make sense to me if the server hoster was reposnsible for external violations they have no control over |
| 15:03 |
jas_ |
right, no it's a great question but |
| 15:03 |
jas_ |
i mean, technically you should just use gpl everything |
| 15:03 |
jas_ |
but that's not practicle |
| 15:04 |
jas_ |
practical |
| 15:04 |
jas_ |
haha |
| 15:05 |
jas_ |
the question of streamed software is another aspect, i'm even less familiar with |
| 15:05 |
jas_ |
which would of course include its assets, and the (l)gpl isn't made for binary data (music) |
| 15:07 |
jas_ |
you could use it, but really it is all about intentions. what do you intend to do? |
| 15:08 |
IhrFussel |
I was thinking about adding some music snippets to certain nodes |
| 15:08 |
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| 15:10 |
jas_ |
easily fair use, i'd say. |
| 15:12 |
jas_ |
of course, when redistributing your server's sub-game, for example, you would simply omit those from the package |
| 15:12 |
jas_ |
but i don't know if you do that, or keep your server local, so to speak |
| 15:12 |
jas_ |
(i don't even want to look at mine, right now, after this convo;) |
| 15:14 |
IhrFussel |
Well Krock already mentioned that there have been files in the past that were labeled as NC but still used by mods even though the modders couldn't even know if the servers that run the mod are all NC |
| 15:14 |
jas_ |
minetest is a special beast. since mtg is lgpl, it can get away with a bit more. but if you use any gpl mods in your dist, or whatever, it would change things. |
| 15:15 |
jas_ |
still anything NC in mt should probably rm asap |
| 15:15 |
jas_ |
lol *heads out for a respiratory treatment* |
| 15:24 |
sfan5 |
(haven't followed the discussion) why should NC licensed content be removed from mt/mtg? |
| 15:26 |
IhrFussel |
sfan5, probably because we cannot guarantee that the server hosters will provide their service for free |
| 15:27 |
sfan5 |
so it's to remove burden of checking licensing from server operators |
| 15:28 |
IhrFussel |
Well and possibly app devs that included ads/paywalls into their clients |
| 15:28 |
IhrFussel |
Although I wouldn't be against them getting in trouble |
| 15:29 |
sfan5 |
if you're developing an app you need to worry about licensing anyway |
| 15:29 |
sfan5 |
but making sure server admins don't need to do that sounds reasonable |
| 15:31 |
IhrFussel |
sfan5, yes but if an ad-infested client downloads NC media from a server (whether NC or not) it's a license violation correct? |
| 15:31 |
sfan5 |
it's not |
| 15:32 |
sfan5 |
hmm maybe |
| 15:32 |
sfan5 |
but it's definitely not your worry as *you* are not making money on it |
| 15:32 |
IhrFussel |
I mean the client that uses the files is commercial by definition |
| 15:33 |
sfan5 |
indeed |
| 15:33 |
sfan5 |
might actaully be a license violation, but the person violating the license in that case is the app developer not you |
| 15:33 |
IhrFussel |
Yes but the app devs couldn't know that their users are downloading a NC file from a server...so it's kinda *not fair* to them |
| 15:34 |
sfan5 |
yea |
| 15:35 |
IhrFussel |
But I'm against ads/paywalls in OSS generally ... paywalls are even worse cause they block users from using the features the server permit |
| 15:37 |
IhrFussel |
You said you want to try to pull the mobile players to the official client... which will require certain design changes in the Android app first and the one person who offered help likely cannot work on it before 2018 |
| 15:38 |
IhrFussel |
But I feel like the app NEEDS those improvements before 0.5.0 releases |
| 15:40 |
IhrFussel |
I had quite a few players that seriously said "sorry but i can't use this app, it's too bad i'll switch back to the one with the ads" |
| 15:41 |
rubenwardy |
there isn't and NC content in mt/mtg though? |
| 15:43 |
jas_ |
i'm bantering, and i like gpl and cc-by-at |
| 15:43 |
jas_ |
that's why |
| 15:43 |
jas_ |
HAHA |
| 15:43 |
jas_ |
oops, by-sa |
| 15:44 |
IhrFussel |
Krock didn't mention MTG he only said NC textures were used in the past |
| 15:45 |
jas_ |
now it's the streaming software stuff i wonder about, because it's kinda like publishing, but if no one asks for the code -- it's moot i think |
| 15:46 |
IhrFussel |
But still if modders use NC stuff they could cause trouble for server owners who use it commercially |
| 15:46 |
jas_ |
or anyone, but that's their problemo |
| 15:46 |
jas_ |
so what music you like? ac/dc? |
| 15:46 |
* jas_ |
just got an idea |
| 15:47 |
rubenwardy |
server owners shouldn't use mods with NC stuff |
| 15:47 |
rubenwardy |
if they |
| 15:47 |
rubenwardy |
if they're going to use it commercially, that is |
| 15:47 |
rubenwardy |
not heard of any servers doing anything commercially, though |
| 15:48 |
Krock |
"Buy 50 diamond blocks now for only $6.66!" |
| 15:48 |
rubenwardy |
there are minecraft-based companies that make millions of pounds a year from MC IAPs |
| 15:49 |
IhrFussel |
I also don't know of any commercial public server... but a player once asked me if I could give him the WE priv for money xP |
| 15:49 |
Shara |
Actually I know of at least one server that had "buy items for real money" type offers. |
| 15:49 |
rubenwardy |
also competitions etc |
| 15:49 |
Shara |
And back when I saw it I pointed out to them they were quite likely breaking soem licenses for textures they used |
| 15:50 |
jas_ |
bingo |
| 15:50 |
Shara |
Since they were using some Minecraft texture packs that had non-commericial listed under conditions of use when I checked |
| 15:51 |
IhrFussel |
But isn't it *very* difficult for a server owner to find out whether or not the files are NC? I mean sometimes modders give files a certain license but it's not the correct one |
| 15:51 |
Shara |
Fussel, if you want to have a commercial server, you should be making sure you check things you use have a license |
| 15:51 |
IhrFussel |
Modders could lie I mean...they could make a NC texture "commercial" |
| 15:52 |
Shara |
I'm not a lawyer, but I guess there comes a point where it would be the modder who is in the wrong not you... so long as you change it if it's pointed out to you |
| 15:54 |
jas_ |
it's who's distributing what, under what costs. so if a third party makes the error, and he redistributes it, he is in error, too. |
| 15:54 |
jas_ |
if he makes money and there's a nc license anywhere that's kinda.. against the license, i'd think |
| 15:54 |
jas_ |
unless |
| 15:54 |
jas_ |
you contact the author, get his permission |
| 16:04 |
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| 16:23 |
jas_ |
hi sofar |
| 16:23 |
jas_ |
https://github.com/minetest-mods/warps/pull/2#issuecomment-333895746 |
| 16:23 |
sofar |
shoot down a github PR, you get pinged in IRC |
| 16:24 |
sofar |
:P |
| 16:24 |
sofar |
oh lol, I never listened to it |
| 16:24 |
jas_ |
apologies |
| 16:24 |
sofar |
somehow ogg files don't play in my browser at work |
| 16:24 |
jas_ |
anyway yea |
| 16:24 |
jas_ |
it's your license, so, you tell me. |
| 16:25 |
sofar |
no worries, what did you do with the sound effect then? |
| 16:25 |
jas_ |
oh jesus let me take a listen i don't remember |
| 16:25 |
* jas_ |
stops the nirvana |
| 16:25 |
sofar |
lol |
| 16:25 |
jas_ |
fading |
| 16:25 |
jas_ |
echo |
| 16:25 |
jas_ |
lemme listen to the old one |
| 16:25 |
sofar |
I've been slacking on minetest-mods, just serviced a bunch of PRs to make up for it |
| 16:26 |
sofar |
all my time going into "Inside the box" |
| 16:26 |
jas_ |
eq |
| 16:27 |
jas_ |
not much. i keep meaning to check it out, i think it looks cool |
| 16:27 |
jas_ |
i upvoted your stuff, man haha |
| 16:29 |
sofar |
it's been fun, in a way because slowly it's creating a bit of a content generation factory |
| 16:29 |
sofar |
the more people play, the more they'll be enticed to build |
| 16:30 |
sofar |
and so there will be more to play ... ! |
| 16:30 |
jas_ |
at first, i thought and wondered about itb.exe, but i wonder now how much it's tied to being a centralized online server |
| 16:30 |
jas_ |
like i thought it could be a singleplayer puzzler |
| 16:30 |
sofar |
itb.exe? wha? |
| 16:30 |
jas_ |
whole different game than minetest, but i been watching the videos |
| 16:30 |
sofar |
makes no sense |
| 16:31 |
sofar |
the crux is that it's online so you can share creations |
| 16:31 |
sofar |
without that, it's a dead-end game |
| 16:31 |
jas_ |
at first i thought it would be a subgame, but totally unlike MTG just puzzles |
| 16:31 |
jas_ |
so like a whole other game, which i thought was cool. this looks cool too |
| 16:31 |
sofar |
the code is irrelevant, all the original parts are what people build with it |
| 16:31 |
jas_ |
definitely interesting |
| 16:32 |
sofar |
just try it, btw, it takes 2 minutes to do the first 2 puzzles and it remembers your progress |
| 16:32 |
sofar |
with ~ 45 puzzles atm, you can come back later and do more |
| 16:32 |
jas_ |
you have a connection from me yesterday, but i didn't play it |
| 16:32 |
jas_ |
someone else did, they got scared sofar! |
| 16:32 |
sofar |
I added a puzzle yesterday that most players need 30+ minutes for |
| 16:32 |
jas_ |
hahha |
| 16:33 |
jas_ |
i don't do puzzles |
| 16:34 |
sofar |
well, after you finish the tutorial you can build them |
| 16:34 |
sofar |
but, it's a server for puzzlers, one way or another |
| 17:14 |
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| 17:27 |
Calinou |
hi |
| 17:28 |
Calinou |
<sfan5> (haven't followed the discussion) why should NC licensed content be removed from mt/mtg? |
| 17:28 |
Calinou |
there's CC -NC stuff in minetest_game now? :( |
| 17:28 |
Calinou |
that's a no-go for Debian/Fedora |
| 17:28 |
Calinou |
(Debian will allow it, but really reluctantly and minetest-data will go to `non-free`, and minetest to `contrib`) |
| 17:28 |
Calinou |
(and Fedora will just nuke it entirely) |
| 17:29 |
rubenwardy |
there isn't |
| 17:29 |
Calinou |
I hope there won't be in the future, that'd be a terrible setback (obligatory RMS reference) |
| 17:30 |
Fixer |
oh, i need to solve some puzzles |
| 17:31 |
Fixer |
IhrFussel: i have other situation with minimap, i can have 90fps (capped) and when walking it looses 30-40 fps |
| 17:32 |
Fixer |
Calinou: "ATI is no longer a thing since 2006 :P" drivers still have ati*.dll, so it kinda lives |
| 17:32 |
Fixer |
everyone knows it is ATI, you can't hide it, its bugs and traditions |
| 17:32 |
IhrFussel |
Fixer, did you try with view range 50 for testing? |
| 17:33 |
Fixer |
all glory to RBA for fixing that innocent z-buffer bug that was fixed about 5 years later in minetest, ATI users love |
| 17:34 |
Fixer |
one line fix that makes huuge difference for 30% of PC userbase on ATI cards |
| 17:35 |
Fixer |
Calinou: tbh those CC-NC suck so much, so much projects poisoned and can't be included in debian and other classical distros |
| 17:35 |
Calinou |
yep |
| 17:35 |
Calinou |
I wish -NC never existed, but unfortunately it's going to stick with us |
| 17:35 |
Fixer |
or look at gzdoom |
| 17:36 |
Fixer |
it has shittons of licence it can't be accepted into debian :/ |
| 17:37 |
Fixer |
openttd sfx part also under shitty license but other is ok |
| 17:37 |
Calinou |
GZDoom is GPLv3 now! |
| 17:37 |
Fixer |
so if you really religious you can play without sound in openttd |
| 17:37 |
Calinou |
since April 2017 |
| 17:37 |
Fixer |
Calinou: totally? |
| 17:37 |
Calinou |
it took us 16 years to have a GPL ZDoom port :) |
| 17:37 |
Calinou |
but we have it, at last |
| 17:37 |
Calinou |
Zandronum is not GPL, though |
| 17:37 |
Calinou |
(even the recently-released version 3) |
| 17:37 |
Fixer |
Calinou: https://zdoom.org/wiki/license |
| 17:38 |
Calinou |
that page is about the license of the no-longer-maintained ZDoom, not GZDoom |
| 17:38 |
Calinou |
the top of the page mentions the licenses used in GZDoom |
| 17:38 |
Calinou |
even Freedoom recommends GZDoom now: http://freedoom.github.io/download.html |
| 17:40 |
Raven262 |
Also, KDiZD works nice on GZDoom. |
| 17:40 |
Raven262 |
Hi Calinou. |
| 17:40 |
Calinou |
hi Raven262 |
| 17:41 |
Calinou |
yeah, GZDoom supports pretty much all maps/mods |
| 17:41 |
Calinou |
Blade of Agony runs (only) on GZDoom, too |
| 17:41 |
Raven262 |
Oh |
| 17:41 |
Raven262 |
It has issues on linux though |
| 17:41 |
Raven262 |
I can't use dynamic lights in open areas in Blade of Agony |
| 17:42 |
Raven262 |
Gets everything black. |
| 17:42 |
Calinou |
hmm, no issues here |
| 17:42 |
Calinou |
but I'm on Windows |
| 17:42 |
Raven262 |
Windows runs nice |
| 17:42 |
Calinou |
I use this for starting mods: https://github.com/Hypnotoad90/RocketLauncher2 |
| 17:42 |
Calinou |
works pretty well, you can save presets |
| 17:42 |
jas_ |
mmmmmmmm gzdoom |
| 17:42 |
Raven262 |
I use drag and drop to run stuff on windows. |
| 17:43 |
Raven262 |
And command line on linux, as usual. |
| 17:43 |
jas_ |
i want to get into client mods, but i want to manipulate them from the server. when is that going to happen? when channels are done? |
| 17:44 |
jas_ |
no sense in looking at CSM for me because i can't see it from server |
| 17:45 |
Fixer |
Calinou: no, wait |
| 17:46 |
Fixer |
Calinou: As of April 17, 2017, GZDoom utilizes the following licenses for its code: GPL, LGPL, Dumb, Paul Hsieh, Zdoom, zlib |
| 17:46 |
jas_ |
gzdoom is different |
| 17:46 |
jas_ |
mmm gzdoom |
| 17:46 |
Fixer |
it says GZDOOm |
| 17:46 |
jas_ |
the pitch is beautiful. normally it tears |
| 17:46 |
jas_ |
not in gzdoom |
| 17:46 |
jas_ |
i know, i don't like regular zdoom because i do +mlook |
| 17:47 |
jas_ |
regular zdoom has that funny perspective shearing that happens when you look up. plus, in gzdoom you can look all the way up and down |
| 17:47 |
lisac |
jas_, only if you use GL renderer |
| 17:47 |
jas_ |
zdoom doesn't have the same license, it's a different project last i knew |
| 17:48 |
jas_ |
it's gzdoom, so yeah, that's implied |
| 17:48 |
lisac |
aye but some people use GZdoom with software |
| 17:48 |
jas_ |
oh |
| 17:48 |
lisac |
for newer features |
| 17:48 |
jas_ |
well i stand corrected |
| 17:48 |
jas_ |
haven't played it since.... minetest |
| 17:48 |
jas_ |
haha! |
| 17:48 |
lisac |
I actually know a guy that can't run Zandronum with GL because his GPU is too weak. |
| 17:49 |
Raven262 |
lol |
| 17:49 |
lisac |
He's playing Zand in software |
| 17:49 |
lisac |
encounters all sorts of bugs. |
| 17:49 |
Raven262 |
Thats why he saw endlessly tall ladders on my map. |
| 17:51 |
jas_ |
http://battleofthebits.org/arena/Battle/1592/Doom/ |
| 17:53 |
Fixer |
Calinou: ok, looks like it is really GPL3 for now |
| 17:57 |
paramat |
wow i'm glad someone mentioned doom or quake, i was worrying the channel was getting offtopic :] |
| 17:58 |
Fixer |
you are welcome |
| 18:01 |
Calinou |
lisac, jas_: GZDoom has a software renderer now (it merged the one from QZDoom) |
| 18:01 |
Calinou |
by default it's 8-bit and doesn't support freelook without shearing |
| 18:01 |
Calinou |
but you can make it truecolor, polygon-based (supports freelook without shearing), or both :) |
| 18:01 |
Calinou |
also, you can replicate Y-shearing in OpenGL, DarkPlaces can do this at least |
| 18:01 |
Calinou |
(GZDoom can't, though) |
| 18:02 |
paramat |
i'm wondering if cal can go a day without talking about doom or quake on a minetest channel =) |
| 18:02 |
paramat |
anyway, that's enough, see channel rules |
| 18:08 |
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| 18:13 |
IhrFussel |
A shame that meta node def PR won't get merged before 0.5.0 |
| 18:14 |
IhrFussel |
But I think that's something that could be added in 0.5.1 or does it break anything? |
| 18:15 |
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| 18:28 |
Fixer |
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HU4eduqLQwg (18+, alarm to headphone users, one of duke nukem horror maps that I finished) |
| 18:39 |
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Krock joined #minetest-hub |
| 18:40 |
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Krock joined #minetest-hub |
| 18:50 |
Raven262 |
Fixer, What is going on with the sound in some areas of the map? |
| 18:51 |
Fixer |
Raven262: ACID |
| 18:51 |
Raven262 |
I though so. |
| 18:51 |
Raven262 |
*t |
| 18:51 |
Raven262 |
Not as scary as i though it would be though. |
| 18:51 |
Fixer |
damn, i need to play duke nukem again, bestest game, full of fun |
| 18:51 |
Fixer |
and action |
| 18:53 |
Raven262 |
It does have some fun stuff that doom hasn't got, doom doesn't teleport you around all the time. |
| 18:53 |
Fixer |
i mean look at this for example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2YM8Wfnolo it is action movie, literally |
| 18:54 |
Fixer |
minetest just simply can't do that |
| 18:55 |
Raven262 |
You can use that pistol as a sniper rifle. That low spread is insane. |
| 18:57 |
Fixer |
this one is even better https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGkroXu8KdA |
| 18:59 |
rubenwardy |
http://dropbox.design |
| 19:00 |
rubenwardy |
in other unrelated news: https://i.rubenwardy.com/jMNa4AsZmZ.png |
| 19:02 |
Shara |
What a horrible site. |
| 19:03 |
Fixer |
rubenwardy: dropbox sucks officially |
| 19:03 |
Fixer |
can confirm |
| 19:03 |
Fixer |
it all started with removing public folders |
| 19:04 |
Fixer |
then I knew it is the end |
| 19:04 |
Fixer |
*is not dropbox user though anyway |
| 19:04 |
Shara |
I didn't use it in a long time... but couple of days ago had email saying all my extra space was gone. |
| 19:04 |
Shara |
Lookign at redesign... I think I don't care :) |
| 19:04 |
Shara |
Looking* |
| 19:12 |
Fixer |
every time i hear redesign, i'm expecting UI R.I.P. |
| 19:13 |
rubenwardy |
some redesigns are good |
| 19:13 |
rubenwardy |
Android's one turned out very nicely |
| 19:13 |
Shara |
Some. |
| 19:13 |
rubenwardy |
but this one is awful |
| 19:13 |
rubenwardy |
the contrast is all wrong |
| 19:13 |
rubenwardy |
and the colors look ugly |
| 19:13 |
rubenwardy |
and my god the scroll hijacking |
| 19:14 |
sfan5 |
tfw scrollbar does not work correctly |
| 19:14 |
Fixer |
s o m e |
| 19:14 |
rubenwardy |
I guess that designers are so useless that they just sit around all day, and come up with s**t like this |
| 19:15 |
rubenwardy |
well, at least theirs |
| 19:15 |
Fixer |
every year god damn redesign |
| 19:15 |
rubenwardy |
sssh |
| 19:15 |
Fixer |
or designers will be jobless |
| 19:15 |
Fixer |
and i have to adapt to this bullshit apparently |
| 19:16 |
rubenwardy |
that's technology generally, adapt or be left behind |
| 19:17 |
Fixer |
rubenwardy: but not every ------- year |
| 19:17 |
rubenwardy |
if you use enough companies, some of them will have a redesign every year |
| 19:17 |
Fixer |
where are those s t a b l e interfaces from 90s? oh they are gone, so dinosaur |
| 19:17 |
rubenwardy |
it's not like they're co-ordinated |
| 19:18 |
rubenwardy |
surprising that people are positive https://twitter.com/search?q=dropbox |
| 19:18 |
Fixer |
AV software is the worst |
| 19:18 |
rubenwardy |
AV software is malware |
| 19:18 |
rubenwardy |
jokes, just wanted to say that |
| 19:19 |
Fixer |
i generally want designer to actually go work for North Korea redesigning that place, but please left as alone |
| 19:19 |
Fixer |
designers* |
| 19:19 |
Fixer |
all of them |
| 19:19 |
Fixer |
change of UI in sake of change of UI is very cancerous |
| 19:20 |
rubenwardy |
Android's redesign was a definite improvement |
| 19:20 |
Fixer |
i'm more worried about PC |
| 19:21 |
Fixer |
i have psychic trauma, after METRO/KDE4/GNOME3 |
| 19:21 |
Fixer |
and now UWP |
| 19:22 |
Fixer |
on the other hand my heart rate is stable enough for mentioning systemd and pulseaudio |
| 19:24 |
Fixer |
i wonder if Lennart actually received death threats |
| 19:24 |
Fixer |
just curious |
| 19:27 |
Fixer |
some people also say Ribbon, but I poker face on this |
| 19:27 |
Fixer |
Calinou: i'm still hesitent to burn my AV in flames |
| 20:07 |
Calinou |
<Fixer> i wonder if Lennart actually received death threats |
| 20:08 |
Calinou |
he did, there's a Bitcoin fund for hiring an hitman to kill him |
| 20:08 |
Calinou |
or, at least, Phoronix reported that |
| 20:08 |
Calinou |
I think someone also modified Xbill to feature Lennart Poettering as the enemy, too |
| 20:09 |
Fixer |
ah yes |
| 20:24 |
rubenwardy |
!g Lennart Poettering |
| 20:24 |
ShadowBot |
rubenwardy: Lennart Poettering - Wikipedia - Lennart Poettering (born October 15, 1980) is a German computer free software programmer known for his work on PulseAudio, a sound server, Avahi, an implementation of ... </l/?kh=-1&uddg=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FLennart_Poettering>, Lennart Poettering's Linus Torvalds rant | ZDNet - Open-source mailing lists and IRC conversations (7 more messages) |
| 20:24 |
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| 20:27 |
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| 20:40 |
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| 20:57 |
nerzhul |
good news, i think i will finish the main network PR part today or tomorrow |
| 20:57 |
nerzhul |
i'm working on the remaining UDP part, server properly handle it, i need to have client part |
| 20:57 |
nerzhul |
and after that test with multiple clients, and fix some disconnection issues |
| 20:57 |
Fixer |
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/YRCzEqkCoiM/maxresdefault.jpg |
| 20:58 |
Fixer |
i'm excited and horrified at the same time |
| 21:02 |
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| 21:02 |
Fixer |
i hope benefits are substantial |
| 21:03 |
nerzhul |
maintenance will be easy, code is modern and clear, and loading times are faster, i think media server should not be required anymore because we have pure tcp binary protocol, then it's faster than HTTP :) |
| 21:07 |
Calinou |
HTTP file sendings can use HTTPS, though |
| 21:08 |
Calinou |
but in practice, I've never seen any game do it :( |
| 21:08 |
Calinou |
let alone HTTP/2 |
| 21:08 |
Calinou |
(curl supports HTTPS and HTTP/2, now) |
| 21:08 |
nerzhul |
also mapblock loading should be a little bit faster on remote |
| 21:08 |
nerzhul |
Calinou, right, but HTTPS and HTTP/2 are slower than MT binary protocol because no encryption is done :p |
| 21:08 |
Calinou |
maybe |
| 21:09 |
Calinou |
HTTP/2 is faster than plain HTTP, though |
| 21:09 |
nerzhul |
yeah, but HTTP/2 is HTTPS/2 because HTTP/2 can only be encrypted :p |
| 21:09 |
Calinou |
https://www.httpvshttps.com/ |
| 21:09 |
rubenwardy |
also, doesn't the remote media server offload work whilst clients are connecting? |
| 21:09 |
Calinou |
nerzhul: the HTTP/2 spec doesn't mandate encryption, but all browsers require it |
| 21:09 |
Calinou |
this might not be the case of your own implementation |
| 21:09 |
rubenwardy |
given that it takes a while sometimes, that's a good thing |
| 21:09 |
nerzhul |
rubenwardy, if you have 1000 clients at the same time ofc |
| 21:10 |
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| 21:10 |
nerzhul |
Calinou, yeah, then by essence it's mandatory :p |
| 21:11 |
nerzhul |
also ASIO can be nice for the future C++20 :D |
| 21:11 |
nerzhul |
http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2017/n4656.pdf |
| 21:11 |
rubenwardy |
popular servers often have 5-10 players connecting at a time - usually phone clients which end up timing out |
| 21:12 |
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| 21:12 |
nerzhul |
timeout is due to bad connection, using HTTP or mt binary protocol doesn't change anything to timeouts |
| 21:12 |
rubenwardy |
that wasn't my point |
| 21:13 |
rubenwardy |
"popular servers often have 5-10 players connecting at a time, even if most of them are phone clients which end up timing out anyway" |
| 21:13 |
nerzhul |
current MT protocol doesn't like slow clients |
| 21:13 |
nerzhul |
the new version doesn't care about that |
| 21:13 |
rubenwardy |
however, chunk sending and entity sending would probably be better to optimise |
| 21:13 |
Calinou |
you shouldn't timeout even if you're on a 4G connection |
| 21:13 |
Calinou |
good protocols are tolerant enough to packet loss |
| 21:13 |
nerzhul |
rubenwardy, gzip compression is good for slow for a mobile |
| 21:14 |
nerzhul |
zstd can be a good compromise but packet will e a little bit more heavy |
| 21:14 |
nerzhul |
but mobile will consume less memory and cpu |
| 21:14 |
Fixer |
lz4? |
| 21:14 |
Fixer |
nevermind |
| 21:14 |
nerzhul |
or lz4, i don't have preference, except it's easier to implement lz4 in MT than zstd :p |
| 21:15 |
nerzhul |
gzipcomprss function can be replaced sur lz4_comprss in mt code easily, whereas the zstd interfaces are a little bit more tricky to implement in current code |
| 21:16 |
rubenwardy |
what about pied piper? |
| 21:16 |
nerzhul |
what is that ? |
| 21:16 |
rubenwardy |
http://www.piedpiper.com/ |
| 21:16 |
rubenwardy |
it's a revolutionary compression algorithm |
| 21:16 |
nerzhul |
don't know |
| 21:16 |
rubenwardy |
reached 5.4 on compression for 3d videos! |
| 21:16 |
nerzhul |
and zstd and lz4 are revolutionar too |
| 21:16 |
rubenwardy |
nerzhul, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicon_Valley_(TV_series) |
| 21:17 |
nerzhul |
nice for 3d videos, but comprssion algorithm depend on what you comprss |
| 21:17 |
nerzhul |
gzip is bad for videos but excellent with text |
| 21:18 |
nerzhul |
i tend to be more confident with lz4 and zstd as FreeBSD and Solaris have them natively in their kernel for the ZFS storage system, and many users (including netflix filers) are using them on thousands of terabytes of data |
| 21:18 |
nerzhul |
but it's another point to study and change in MT for 0.5 |
| 21:19 |
nerzhul |
it's our change to have modern comprssion over network |
| 21:19 |
nerzhul |
and reduce CPU overhead on it |
| 21:21 |
Fixer |
timed out, you talking about packet compression or mapblock compression? |
| 21:24 |
Calinou |
LZ4 is good enough, many users host servers on not-so-powerful CPUs |
| 21:24 |
Calinou |
(zstd doesn't perform well on small data, unless trained) |
| 21:24 |
Fixer |
for mapblocks i like lz4 |
| 21:25 |
Fixer |
even if it takes slightly more space |
| 21:25 |
Fixer |
zlib is horribly slow |
| 21:27 |
Calinou |
zlib isn't horribly slow, but it's not as fast as the modern algorithms :P |
| 21:27 |
Calinou |
LZMA is horribly slow, though |
| 21:27 |
Calinou |
especially when compressing, but even decompressing is pretty slow by today's standards |
| 21:27 |
nerzhul |
mapblock compression |
| 21:34 |
Fixer |
lz4 seems like better alternative, it seems |
| 22:00 |
nerzhul |
yes |
| 22:00 |
nerzhul |
29:59 and UDP part is fully working ! |
| 22:00 |
nerzhul |
23:59* |
| 22:00 |
nerzhul |
nice ! |
| 22:08 |
IhrFussel |
Does Lua in MT use the utf8 library and can properly cut any utf-8 strings? |
| 22:08 |
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| 22:08 |
nerzhul |
the poc is now properly testable, i need to fix the shutdown issue |
| 22:16 |
Fixer |
nerzhul: linux has lz4 (in general?) and zstd (for btrfs) supports too |
| 22:16 |
nerzhul |
btrfs is shit, use zfs :p |
| 22:20 |
Fixer |
btrfs had aura of problematic* |
| 22:23 |
sfan5 |
oh are we discussing mapblock compression again |
| 22:23 |
sofar |
zfs is out of tree, will never get merged |
| 22:23 |
sfan5 |
let's just use brotli |
| 22:23 |
nerzhul |
sofar, it depend on the distro :p |
| 22:23 |
nerzhul |
it's in ubuntu, it's a dkms on many distros :p |
| 22:24 |
sofar |
distro doesn't matter, it won't ever get merged by Linus |
| 22:24 |
sofar |
get over it |
| 22:24 |
nerzhul |
yeah, it's why i use FreeBSD |
| 22:24 |
sofar |
eh, the 0.05% |
| 22:24 |
nerzhul |
oh FreeBSD is not 0.05% |
| 22:24 |
nerzhul |
it's everywhere in the world like linux |
| 22:24 |
sofar |
no, it's the 0.05% of me that cares |
| 22:25 |
nerzhul |
netapp, playstation, wii u, apple Mac OSX, apple iOS, CISCO, Juniper, EMC, Isilon |
| 22:25 |
nerzhul |
:p |
| 22:25 |
sofar |
oh, look, you're listing all platforms where you have zero control |
| 22:25 |
nerzhul |
wrong |
| 22:26 |
nerzhul |
netapp, juniper and isilon can be modified, not totally but many parts :p |
| 22:26 |
sofar |
it's cool, NSA modifies them too |
| 22:26 |
nerzhul |
yahoo and netflix uses freebsd |
| 22:26 |
sfan5 |
Darwin doesn't really relate to FreeBSD |
| 22:26 |
sfan5 |
so macOS and iOS don't count |
| 22:26 |
nerzhul |
darwin is a microkernel |
| 22:26 |
nerzhul |
it's freebsd over it |
| 22:26 |
sfan5 |
what |
| 22:27 |
sfan5 |
apple uses Darwin / xnu in their products, no *BSD in sight |
| 22:27 |
nerzhul |
i remember the mac osx 10.8 to 10.9 firewall switch, strangely it's ipfw changed to packet filter, like freebsd :p |
| 22:27 |
sfan5 |
yes the kernel was originally based on some bsd stuff |
| 22:27 |
sfan5 |
does this make xnu the same as freebsd? definitely not |
| 22:28 |
nerzhul |
it's a divergent FreeBSD |
| 22:28 |
nerzhul |
but many kernel modules are common |
| 22:28 |
nerzhul |
and all the free userland part comes from freebsd |
| 22:28 |
nerzhul |
clang is pushed by apple & freebsd |
| 22:29 |
nerzhul |
both switched to clang together :p |
| 22:29 |
nerzhul |
macports is freebsd ports tree with mac patches :p |
| 22:30 |
Jordach |
hell, i'm a fan of using the most objectively best software on offer |
| 22:30 |
sfan5 |
ok i got it mixed up here, darwin came from nextstep/openstep while the kernel xnu is indeed based on mac + early freebsd versions |
| 22:30 |
sofar |
minetest doesn't need more/different/other compression algorithms. use your free time to code some real features instead |
| 22:31 |
sofar |
you can't make a better kernel scheduler either |
| 22:31 |
nerzhul |
sofar, can you do it too ? i don't see many PR/commits from you |
| 22:31 |
sofar |
I'm spending my time currently on a last-mile effort -> delivering actual Minetest Content |
| 22:31 |
Calinou |
relevant: https://github.com/apple/darwin-xnu |
| 22:31 |
Calinou |
this is apparently quite recent |
| 22:31 |
Calinou |
(but I'm not sure) |
| 22:32 |
sofar |
you can't code in labs and never make a product or product-like thing and say it's successful |
| 22:32 |
sofar |
you have to do both |
| 22:32 |
sfan5 |
Calinou: xnu has been open source since years, apparently they added iOS/ARM-related code recently |
| 22:32 |
sofar |
I'll flip back once I'm happy with where the server is going |
| 22:33 |
sofar |
besides, it wasn't a criticism of you, just of "yet another zlib vs (insert compression algo)" point raised by some |
| 22:33 |
nerzhul |
sofar, just do some callgrind benchs, you will see server uses 30% cpu time for a singleuser |
| 22:33 |
nerzhul |
it's not tiny |
| 22:34 |
sofar |
not saying it isn't |
| 22:34 |
nerzhul |
i go to bed, see you :) |
| 22:34 |
Fixer |
Calinou: xnu-darwin is published for ages |
| 22:36 |
Fixer |
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/77/Unix_history-simple.svg/1960px-Unix_history-simple.svg.png |
| 22:38 |
Fixer |
remembering freebsd 4.8 on dialup hub iirc |
| 22:38 |
Fixer |
fun times |
| 22:38 |
Fixer |
with that big Zyxel |
| 22:40 |
Fixer |
yeah, zfx will not be in kernel :( |
| 22:45 |
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| 22:46 |
rubenwardy |
!g zfs |
| 22:46 |
ShadowBot |
rubenwardy: ZFS - Wikipedia - ZFS is a combined file system and logical volume manager designed by Sun Microsystems. The features of ZFS include protection against data corruption ... </l/?kh=-1&uddg=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FZFS>, ZFS - FreeNAS - Open Source Storage Operating System - Unprecedented Flexibility. ZFS helps you avoid most storage planning mistakes by pooling (6 more messages) |
| 22:47 |
Fixer |
iirc Sun OS is finally RIP |
| 23:10 |
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| 23:34 |
Fixer |
"If you had a Yahoo account in 2013, it was compromised." nice |
| 23:36 |
Fixer |
"Code-execution flaws threaten users of routers, Linux, and other OSes" |
| 23:36 |
Fixer |
what a great time to have network connected devices |
| 23:37 |
Fixer |
everything can be hacked |
| 23:51 |
sofar |
you don't need to have any device to be hacked -> experian |
| 23:51 |
sofar |
equifax |
| 23:51 |
sofar |
whatever the one was |
