| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 01:12 |
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| 04:17 |
KaadmY |
garywhite: no, it's just pining for the fjords. |
| 04:24 |
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| 05:28 |
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| 06:48 |
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| 08:10 |
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| 08:17 |
Shara |
Morning all |
| 08:18 |
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| 08:20 |
shivajiva |
Good morning |
| 08:21 |
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| 08:24 |
celeron55 |
http://i.imgur.com/8VhYrzb.png |
| 08:28 |
Shara |
So no one needed to remind you :) |
| 08:29 |
shivajiva |
celeron55: I'm shutting skyblocks down at the end of the month. I can't run a public server for a project that officially supports hacking, who's contributors control the project by threatening to make hacked clients and distribute them...it's become quite clear to me since opening the issue on dirty clients and hearing what everyone has to say. |
| 08:32 |
Shara |
I am not exactly happy with the situation myself either. |
| 08:34 |
Shara |
It seems impossible to get any commitment from the developers that they will try to do something about some of the long term issues. Instead, there seems to be a trend toward attributing the problems to CSM, when that's only one small part. |
| 08:35 |
celeron55 |
where is this issue? |
| 08:35 |
celeron55 |
found it |
| 08:37 |
Shara |
These players who "hack" (barely seems worth calling it that) even basic privs can be a huge issue on certain types of server. |
| 08:38 |
Shara |
CSM is another issue on top of that. |
| 08:40 |
celeron55 |
DRM is kind of difficult, there are companies making very, very expensive ones which still are routinely cracked |
| 08:41 |
celeron55 |
i guess the only option would be to have a central authentication server with paid accounts or something |
| 08:41 |
celeron55 |
i mean, it works for minecraft |
| 08:41 |
celeron55 |
it doesn't have DRM, but it does have that |
| 08:43 |
nerzhul |
celeron55, libre network games are very difficult to protect, ti's almost impossible because everybody can do crap with clients, it's easier than reverse engineer |
| 08:45 |
shivajiva |
I wasn't looking for DRM, it's a dirty word but some kind of control would be nice. Centralised authentication would be nice for minetest. Server validation of what the client is allowed to do, would be a better solution imo |
| 08:46 |
celeron55 |
MT's anticheat tries its best |
| 08:46 |
celeron55 |
you can never make it 100% accurate without making the game feel completely awful for legit players |
| 08:47 |
|
paramat joined #minetest-hub |
| 08:47 |
celeron55 |
the game mechanics aren't designed for easy anticheat like in some MMORPGs or such |
| 08:48 |
shivajiva |
is that something that can be attended to or are we to far down the path |
| 08:48 |
celeron55 |
if you want to help develop anticheat, you could write down what exact ways it is being currently avoided in |
| 08:49 |
Shara |
fly / noclip are my biggest issues |
| 08:49 |
Shara |
On a PVP server, anyone who enables these for themselves has a huge advantage and legitimate players are left struggling, or in some cases, are even driven out |
| 08:50 |
Shara |
I have a fairly strong admin team, but we are still volunteers ourselves and can't police the server non-stop all hours of the day |
| 08:51 |
shivajiva |
fly/noclip are by far the biggest issues and the suggestion it's fine and server admins need to pick up the policing isn't really a comfortable solution |
| 08:51 |
Shara |
It's also difficult to verify player reports of cheating as well. |
| 08:51 |
Shara |
Nothing to show in the log (unless I am really missing something?) and if I start to ban on player word alone, then that will be easily exploited to get people banned |
| 08:52 |
paramat |
having fly/noclip subject to network lag seems ok to me, if that is an inevitable result of server authenticating it |
| 08:52 |
paramat |
some lag on those isn't much of an issue |
| 08:53 |
celeron55 |
there's quite literally no handling for fly and noclip in the anticheat system, i don't think it would be impossible for me to start working on that |
| 08:53 |
Shara |
Whether or not it's an issue depends a lot on the type of server. For my creative, I'd mostly shrug my shoulders. I give fly anyway and players can earn noclip quite quickly. But for my survival server it's a big deal, and the CTF server I am in theory responsible for had huge issues with this as well. |
| 08:54 |
celeron55 |
also it sounds like AC should log instances that could be cheating but might be just lag or something |
| 08:55 |
Shara |
Yes, a log of potential cheating could be useful, as it would flag which players to at least keep more of an eye on. |
| 08:55 |
shivajiva |
yes that sounds reasonable, some point of reference to backtrack to |
| 08:56 |
Shara |
When 15+ players on at a time isn't rare and admin/moderator hours in game are limited, we can't possibly keep watch on everyone closely enough to figure it out |
| 08:56 |
CWz |
i wonder if NCP+ fly and noclip prevention method could be implemented in minetest |
| 08:56 |
Shara |
but player reports of cheating + a log for this would very much narrow it down |
| 08:57 |
celeron55 |
CWz: i've always had a plan how to do that but it's never gotten to the top of my list |
| 08:57 |
shivajiva |
+100 for moving it up your list |
| 08:58 |
Shara |
Cheating/security is my biggest concern with MT at the moment. Probably because of the increase in incidents I've seen over the last few months. |
| 08:58 |
celeron55 |
basically i want to boil down player movement to node-by-node movement and check by pathfinding if a move was in any way possible |
| 08:58 |
Shara |
Yea, +100 doesn't begin to cover how much I want to see this |
| 08:59 |
shivajiva |
c55: that would nail it |
| 09:06 |
paramat |
c55 any help would be appreciated as we have a lack of active devs currently |
| 09:08 |
CWz |
how much devs do we have now |
| 09:08 |
Shara |
the question is how many "active" devs really. |
| 09:08 |
CWz |
Probably more than freeminer, hopefully |
| 09:10 |
celeron55 |
i wanted to spend my summer leave from work playing ffxiv though |
| 09:10 |
shivajiva |
whether you like it or not c55, this project is driven by you, it was commented on yesterday in -dev, when you drive it, the momentum becomes exhilarating :D |
| 09:13 |
shivajiva |
you will note that paramat has to quote you to get people to see sense when it gets stupid |
| 09:15 |
nerzhul |
active devs ? 3 in terms of PR, 4 in terms on reviews |
| 09:15 |
shivajiva |
pls clone yourself :P |
| 09:15 |
nerzhul |
(coredevs)* |
| 09:25 |
celeron55 |
good start; newest master doesn't even compile |
| 09:26 |
celeron55 |
g++ 6.3.1 says: src/serverobject.h:151:31: error: default initialization of an object of const type 'const ItemGroupList' (aka 'const unordered_map<std::string, int>') without a user-provided default constructor |
| 09:26 |
celeron55 |
that's a C++11 thing, right? |
| 09:27 |
Shara |
The switch to C++11 seemed to cause a lot of issues with compiling. |
| 09:27 |
shivajiva |
^ |
| 09:27 |
Shara |
I still don't understand why the issues with the json error was considered not an issue |
| 09:27 |
Shara |
the issue* |
| 09:30 |
celeron55 |
apparently C++11 has decided that making a static const std::unordered_map<std::string, int> with its default constructor is not ok; that doesn't even make any sense but eh |
| 09:31 |
celeron55 |
the fix was literally adding two "= {}"s |
| 09:33 |
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lisac joined #minetest-hub |
| 09:33 |
nerzhul |
celeron55, someone has done ItemGroupList = {} ? if yes ItemGroupList() {} should exist |
| 09:34 |
celeron55 |
see #-dev |
| 09:36 |
|
paramat joined #minetest-hub |
| 10:10 |
|
IhrFussel joined #minetest-hub |
| 10:15 |
Calinou |
<shivajiva> I wasn't looking for DRM, it's a dirty word but some kind of control would be nice. Centralised authentication would be nice for minetest. Server validation of what the client is allowed to do, would be a better solution imo |
| 10:15 |
Calinou |
problem is that Minetest isn't remotely lag-free |
| 10:15 |
Calinou |
(Minecraft is just as bad though) |
| 10:16 |
Calinou |
if you want good server-side validation (or server-side movement, or stuff like that), you *need* low latency and error rates |
| 10:16 |
Calinou |
and lag spikes should basically be non-existent (probably impossible in a Minecraft-style game, with world loading, /clearobjects-style commands…) |
| 10:16 |
Calinou |
although, NoCheatPlus works decently in Minecraft, false positives happen but are fairly rare |
| 10:17 |
Calinou |
>Centralised authentication would be nice for minetest. |
| 10:17 |
Calinou |
that said, it would be nice to have, as long as it's possible for a server owner to opt-out |
| 10:17 |
Calinou |
(ie. require an account by default, but let the admin not require accounts if desired) |
| 10:17 |
Calinou |
it will make banning much easier, although the creation of alt accounts is still possible (but some things can be done to hinder it) |
| 10:18 |
Calinou |
Shara: also, the "spectator" mod is quite good to detect cheaters (or other troublemakers) |
| 10:18 |
Calinou |
but it requires manual intervention, so you have to hire some moderators :P |
| 10:24 |
Shara |
Calinou: |
| 10:24 |
Shara |
(9:50:22 AM) Shara: I have a fairly strong admin team |
| 10:24 |
Shara |
My servers have a lot of people capable of keeping an eye on things. "Get more moderators" is simply not an answer |
| 10:26 |
Calinou |
it's an answer for anything, actually |
| 10:27 |
shivajiva |
as server owners we understand the requirement for staffing but displacing the responsibility for allowing issues on to us is a poor solution |
| 10:27 |
Calinou |
you should always have a moderator on (at least) at all times |
| 10:27 |
Calinou |
it sounds daunting, but that's how proper moderation works |
| 10:27 |
Calinou |
nothing worse than not having any moderator online |
| 10:27 |
|
Fixer joined #minetest-hub |
| 10:28 |
Shara |
Calinou: I've been involved with open source games for rather a long time. I do always have moderators available. Available and actively in the game (note that being active on IRC doesn't help with this specific issue due to lack of logging here) are two different things as well. |
| 10:28 |
Calinou |
yeah |
| 10:28 |
Calinou |
but even in games that have eg. votekicking, having moderators available is very important |
| 10:28 |
Calinou |
(and Minecraft-style games don't play well with votekicking anyway) |
| 10:29 |
Shara |
I will not allow votekicking on my servers. Too easy to abuse |
| 10:29 |
Fixer |
Calinou: kids don't play will with votekicking* |
| 10:29 |
Calinou |
it doesn't work with MMO-ish games anyway |
| 10:29 |
Calinou |
(for various reasons) |
| 10:29 |
Fixer |
well* |
| 10:29 |
Shara |
My strategy is to grant basic moderator privs to most long term players who showed some responsibility. I often don't call them moderators. |
| 10:29 |
Calinou |
yeah, that's fine |
| 10:30 |
Shara |
Most obvious rule breaking (for example spam/bad language/issues with players fighting and so on...) gets dealt with quickly and with no issues at all. |
| 10:31 |
Shara |
A bit moreso on RC, but it's the oldest of my servers, but DL is getting there as well. |
| 10:32 |
Shara |
I like to get to know people a bit before I just grant privs, so it takes time for a team for any specific server to grow. |
| 10:32 |
Shara |
But if I keep adding more moderators, soon enough I'd have more moderators than players. |
| 10:33 |
Shara |
And maybe that's okay, but it's actually a ridiculous situation to need that |
| 10:33 |
paramat |
CSM API has 'play sound', perhaps that needs a restriction? https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/5930#issuecomment-315719052 |
| 10:33 |
Shara |
As shivajiva siad... at some point it seems like a responsibility is being displaced |
| 10:34 |
paramat |
just wait for 'fart mod' :] |
| 10:34 |
Shara |
paramat: You likely just sped it's arrival. |
| 10:34 |
Shara |
:) |
| 10:34 |
shivajiva |
players with guardian mentality will instinctively moderate and seek help from moderators, it does police itself to some degree but when that is overwhelmed we lose players and authority |
| 10:35 |
Shara |
The hacked client use can't be moderated as easy as many other issues. |
| 10:35 |
paramat |
lol |
| 10:36 |
Shara |
On DL, the main troublemakers seemed to be timing it for when I wasn't around as well. |
| 10:36 |
Shara |
And then when we got hit by people who could circumvent bans... |
| 10:36 |
Shara |
It just got ugly. |
| 10:38 |
Shara |
I have come close to losing my best moderator there because of the abuse he was taking. |
| 10:39 |
Calinou |
you could write a mod to ban VPNs |
| 10:39 |
Calinou |
(you will probably get some flak for doing so though) |
| 10:39 |
Calinou |
(posted it here already), https://github.com/pisto/ASkidban |
| 10:39 |
Calinou |
sometimes, temporary ISP-wide bans can help too |
| 10:40 |
Shara |
I have had to ban several quite large ranges in some cases |
| 10:40 |
Shara |
Though thankfully that was for a country that I only ever saw the player in question coming from |
| 10:41 |
Calinou |
gotta like troublemakers who live in unpopular countries :) |
| 10:42 |
Shara |
The one in question was a menace and managed to get full privs on a few servers, mostly by impersonating me. |
| 10:42 |
Calinou |
yeah, global accounts would help for name protection as well |
| 10:42 |
Calinou |
lots of other things can be done with global accounts too |
| 10:42 |
Shara |
Though I still struggle with why anyone would type /grant Shara all without verifying on IRC it was me. |
| 10:42 |
Calinou |
syncing/backing up personal settings, for example |
| 10:42 |
shivajiva |
I tried to implement a VPN ban using a lookup service but the sheer amount of traffic coupled with server crashes soon saw me exceed the free limits at the service, resulting in a ban even though I cached the results for 24 hours |
| 10:42 |
Calinou |
and global stats (eg. play time) |
| 10:43 |
Shara |
global accounts is something I feel conflicted about |
| 10:43 |
Calinou |
if they're optional, I'm fine with them |
| 10:43 |
Calinou |
(like in eg. Warsow) |
| 10:43 |
Shara |
I have lost long term names I used elsewhere when such things were implemented |
| 10:43 |
Calinou |
it means we'll have to maintain some official infrastructure for it though |
| 10:43 |
Shara |
and I know MT has another player going by "Shara" who may well have been around longer than me |
| 10:44 |
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Raven262 joined #minetest-hub |
| 10:44 |
Shara |
(It's why I started identifying as "Shara RedCat" instead on anything I publish) |
| 10:47 |
shivajiva |
optional sound fine to me, I would consider validating against a google account as it's become pretty much universal based on 90% of the players using droid |
| 10:48 |
Calinou |
sounds like a bad idea though |
| 10:48 |
Calinou |
please no proprietary services :P |
| 10:48 |
shivajiva |
lol kk |
| 10:48 |
Calinou |
optionally linking to other accounts (for added verification) can be useful |
| 10:48 |
Calinou |
but don't make it a requirement |
| 10:48 |
Calinou |
rolling your own account infrastructure isn't that hard |
| 10:49 |
Calinou |
(but it's time-consuming for sure) |
| 10:49 |
shivajiva |
I started by saying optional was fine |
| 10:51 |
Calinou |
lol, Freeminer devs gave up today apparently |
| 10:51 |
Calinou |
I'm not surprised, for some reason |
| 10:51 |
Calinou |
https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=7864&start=200 |
| 10:56 |
paramat |
i feel we should try all else before central accounts, partly due to effort needed (we don't have dev time to spare) |
| 10:57 |
Calinou |
what else should be tried then? |
| 10:57 |
shivajiva |
it's appropriate that dev choose the path, it's their time after all |
| 10:59 |
Shara |
After what was said today, I am hoping celeron55 looks at player movement. If noclip/fly cheating can be dealt with somehow, that would fix a lot of trouble |
| 10:59 |
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CWz joined #minetest-hub |
| 10:59 |
shivajiva |
^ +1000 |
| 11:00 |
paramat |
i might have worked on some of this but it's an area of code i'm hopeless at |
| 11:00 |
Shara |
centralising accounts won't do anything toward that and would be yet another "new feature" that could open up all kinds of new issues again |
| 11:00 |
IhrFussel |
Hello there guys...question: how many if conditions in a row is too much? I mean by how much does a condition slow down the server? the data it compares is just a table string |
| 11:00 |
Shara |
Would be really nice to see what we have already made stable an dsolid, instead of piling more new things onto the (possibly quite broken?) base |
| 11:00 |
Shara |
and solid* |
| 11:01 |
Shara |
Hi Fussel. |
| 11:02 |
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CWz_ joined #minetest-hub |
| 11:04 |
shivajiva |
I tend to try to stick to 3, after that I try to devise object code to handle decisions, depends on what you're doing |
| 11:08 |
Fixer |
Shara: ks |
| 11:08 |
Fixer |
Shara: oops |
| 11:08 |
Fixer |
Shara: is not anticheat prevents at least fly? |
| 11:09 |
Shara |
Fixer: It does not prevent fly |
| 11:09 |
Shara |
It limits fast only from what I have seen |
| 11:09 |
Shara |
You can still move fast but it sort of teleports you back when it detects it |
| 11:12 |
Fixer |
there is this unfinished PR: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/3894 |
| 11:12 |
Fixer |
(Add serverside noclip enforcement) |
| 11:12 |
Fixer |
is someone wants to continue |
| 11:12 |
Fixer |
Shara: the only solution for now is having more admins |
| 11:15 |
IhrFussel |
Fixer, for fly you can simply add a globalstep function that checks if there is air below the player and if so increment a counter..if it hits a certain number detect as cheating |
| 11:15 |
Shara |
Fixer: are you volunteering to admin for me then? I have added as many admins as I possibly can so far... |
| 11:15 |
IhrFussel |
I don't need that though on my server since any player who built a house gets fly |
| 11:15 |
Fixer |
IhrFussel: don't forget jumping, laddeers, liquids etc |
| 11:16 |
Fixer |
Shara: nah :D |
| 11:16 |
Fixer |
admining kids is worst |
| 11:16 |
Shara |
This is an open offer to anyone in this channel interested in helping moderate a server with known hacked client issues |
| 11:17 |
Shara |
Fixer: yup, but I am going to just promote random unknown players to admin |
| 11:17 |
IhrFussel |
liquids are no air, jumping won't trigger the counter (too short) and you could check if the player only moves upwards while in air and detect it as "ladder" |
| 11:17 |
Shara |
I am NOT* |
| 11:18 |
Shara |
Fussel, sounds like this would add a crazy number of checks |
| 11:18 |
paramat |
celeron55 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/3894 might be useful if you haven't seen it |
| 11:19 |
Shara |
Also how frequent the check would need to be... Just flkying through a wall to attack players who were sheltering takes less than a second |
| 11:19 |
Shara |
flying* |
| 11:21 |
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Fixer joined #minetest-hub |
| 11:23 |
Fixer |
so both freeminer and voxelands are pretty much dead or stagnant |
| 11:24 |
CWz_ |
i was rootin fo voxellands |
| 11:24 |
Calinou |
Voxelands got off from a wrong start |
| 11:24 |
Calinou |
(monolithic game) |
| 11:25 |
* CWz_ |
is no hip with the latest voxal lingo, what does "monolithic game" mean |
| 11:25 |
Calinou |
everything was hardcoded in C++, no mods |
| 11:25 |
CWz_ |
Oh |
| 11:25 |
Calinou |
they did so for "performance reasons" but it really doesn't matter anymore |
| 11:27 |
CWz_ |
freeminer.org seems to just link to their github now |
| 11:34 |
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| 11:34 |
IhrFussel |
Shara, you obviously can't prevent such quick assaults, just like you can't really prevent players from glitching through walls/doors if they are quick enough |
| 11:35 |
Shara |
Either way I'd very much like to see something in MT itself for handling this, instead of trying to hack together a mod. |
| 11:36 |
IhrFussel |
It wouldn't be many checks though and you shouldn't run the checks every step either...I'd say 0.5 secs is enough |
| 11:37 |
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| 11:37 |
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ThomasMonroe joined #minetest-hub |
| 11:40 |
CWz_ |
How bad is the cheater pandemic, Shara? |
| 11:41 |
Shara |
A few weeks ago it hit a high |
| 11:41 |
IhrFussel |
1ts check is if the pos below the player is air, if not skip loop iteration...if yes check if 3 nodes below player is air too, if no skip loop iteration...if yes check player movement ... I don't think that's too bad |
| 11:41 |
Shara |
We opened the server to new players again this week, so will see how it goes |
| 11:41 |
IhrFussel |
1st* |
| 11:42 |
shivajiva |
bad enough to warrant the call for something to be done is the simple answer |
| 11:42 |
Shara |
That |
| 11:42 |
IhrFussel |
Of course you should only loop on players without fly priv (I wouldn't add that to the loop though I'd add a table value on joining) |
| 11:57 |
paramat |
sorry, CSM sound is already only heard by the local player, so no concern |
| 11:58 |
Shara |
Good then :) |
| 12:34 |
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| 12:34 |
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paramat joined #minetest-hub |
| 12:35 |
CWz_ |
Ello everywan |
| 12:36 |
paramat |
actually, the fact there isn't already a fart mod was an obvious clue that CSM cannot send sounds to other players |
| 12:36 |
DS-minetest |
lol |
| 12:37 |
shivajiva |
=) |
| 12:37 |
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RobbieF joined #minetest-hub |
| 12:39 |
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NathanS21 joined #minetest-hub |
| 12:43 |
CWz_ |
paramat, i sort of already made one in private |
| 12:43 |
CWz_ |
a normal mod that is |
| 12:47 |
paramat |
hehe |
| 12:51 |
lisac |
hey if CSM could send sounds to other players we could have in game voice chat |
| 12:51 |
nerzhul |
lisac, no |
| 12:51 |
lisac |
lol |
| 12:51 |
nerzhul |
it's not CSM purpose |
| 12:51 |
lisac |
of course |
| 12:51 |
nerzhul |
*Client Side* |
| 12:51 |
lisac |
can we get voice chat, then? :D |
| 12:51 |
nerzhul |
no |
| 12:51 |
nerzhul |
use mumble |
| 12:51 |
lisac |
:( |
| 12:51 |
lisac |
no positional audio |
| 12:52 |
Fixer |
there was positional audio PR, where is it? |
| 12:52 |
nerzhul |
on many game they include audio support, but this never works because users uses generally mumble or TS (on PC) |
| 12:52 |
nerzhul |
Fixer, yeah ShadowNinja did it |
| 12:55 |
Calinou |
built-in VoIP is sometimes usefulb |
| 12:55 |
Calinou |
but in the case of Minetest, it isn't |
| 12:55 |
Calinou |
this isn't a competitive game |
| 13:09 |
Jordach |
http://i.imgur.com/8xDqO1s.png |
| 13:11 |
Wayward_One |
hi all :) |
| 13:17 |
CWz_ |
Wayward_One, |
| 13:20 |
* CWz_ |
wants an 128-bit CPU |
| 13:21 |
CWz_ |
Oh no Wayward_One is afk |
| 13:22 |
Wayward_One |
lol hi CWz :) |
| 13:31 |
CWz_ |
Campus? |
| 13:33 |
Wayward_One |
nope, home |
| 13:42 |
shivajiva |
Fixer: https://github.com/Bremaweb/minetest/tree/mumble-pos-audio |
| 13:45 |
shivajiva |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/3739 |
| 13:47 |
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| 14:50 |
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| 15:03 |
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| 15:09 |
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| 15:11 |
Krock |
> me, on youtube |
| 15:11 |
Krock |
> "create playlist" *enters name* |
| 15:12 |
Krock |
> "This playlist does not exist" |
| 15:12 |
Krock |
oh thanks |
| 15:17 |
Fixer |
Krock: you are welcome :D |
| 16:33 |
IhrFussel |
Someone asked me to add "projection lights" to my server ... I don't even think Irrlicht/MT support that |
| 16:34 |
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| 16:34 |
Shara |
IhrFussel: it's a mod |
| 16:34 |
IhrFussel |
How does it work? Have only light from one side? |
| 16:35 |
Shara |
It's light that travels further than normal |
| 16:35 |
Shara |
Good for lighting in giant rooms where otherwise ceiling lights won't reach the ground |
| 16:35 |
IhrFussel |
But not with the regular light code right? |
| 16:36 |
Shara |
I guess it's this: https://github.com/pinkysnowman/projection_light |
| 16:36 |
IhrFussel |
Max is 14 or 15 and that's wayyy too dark |
| 16:36 |
Shara |
I have the mod on RC, but don't know which version I use |
| 16:36 |
Shara |
Since someone emailed me it a long time ago |
| 16:41 |
IhrFussel |
For each light node it adds SIXTY other nodes in one direction if I read that correctly |
| 16:41 |
IhrFussel |
That's hacky as heck |
| 16:42 |
paramat |
only as far as there is air or water |
| 16:43 |
paramat |
it's clever and possibly the only way in a mod |
| 16:43 |
Shara |
And can make a huge difference in large builds |
| 16:46 |
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| 16:46 |
IhrFussel |
But if one node adds up to 60 extra nodes...that's kinda much |
| 16:47 |
Shara |
It never gave me any problems |
| 16:47 |
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| 16:58 |
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| 16:59 |
paramat |
adding up to 60 nodes is no problem, but it could perhaps use a lua voxel manip instead to have just 1 light update instead of a light update per node |
| 17:03 |
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| 17:05 |
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| 17:05 |
Krock |
or try to manipulate the light with the voxelmanip |
| 17:06 |
Krock |
= no nodes to add |
| 17:06 |
paramat |
then there's no way to know which nodes to return to normal on removal |
| 17:08 |
Krock |
hmm.. well then, add one control node :3 |
| 17:08 |
Krock |
one node vs 60 perviously |
| 17:09 |
Krock |
*pre |
| 17:17 |
lisac |
hey I made a form about gold usage on minetest servers, if you've got a minute, please: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1G8SX1pVHYvoOA8T2d57Qi1sZYSEUZo7VCujYx1QO9J8 |
| 17:20 |
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| 17:20 |
paramat |
hmm i may be making gold less rare at greater depths -> inflation problems |
| 17:23 |
lisac |
hm right |
| 17:23 |
lisac |
there should be fixed now |
| 17:24 |
lisac |
paramat, there isn't much use for gold in minetest_game, so I was thinking currency mods aren't really necessary. |
| 17:24 |
lisac |
maybe a simple exchange shop would work |
| 17:24 |
lisac |
with gold being the primary currency |
| 17:24 |
* Krock |
hints to bitchange:shop |
| 17:24 |
paramat |
yeah gold is ideal as currency |
| 17:24 |
lisac |
Krock, I think bitchange has bitcoins |
| 17:25 |
lisac |
paramat, would also be nice if players could track amount of gold currently in the world |
| 17:25 |
Krock |
minecoins, but the shop isn't bound to the currency |
| 17:25 |
lisac |
that way you can adjust prices when amount of gold goes up/down |
| 17:35 |
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| 17:35 |
Krock |
"This item currently costs you 13.37666 gold ingots. Check for this count of items failed. Check your inventory for 13.37666 gold ingots." /s |
| 17:36 |
Krock |
..which reminds me to an old idea. Are there credit cards anywhere? |
| 17:52 |
sofar |
if you add gold nuggets into the matrix you've got a good spread of currency |
| 17:53 |
sofar |
e.g. 9 nuggets to the bar |
| 18:08 |
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| 18:09 |
paramat |
hmm maybe we should add a smaller gold division (a ninth-ingot) into mtg? |
| 18:11 |
VanessaE |
why not just directly add a coin? |
| 18:11 |
VanessaE |
9 coins to one lump/ingot |
| 18:12 |
VanessaE |
consider though, paramat |
| 18:12 |
VanessaE |
there was a proposal a while back, gets brought up every so often, of adding a basic metals submod |
| 18:12 |
Krock |
and make gold ores drop nuggets |
| 18:12 |
VanessaE |
something that makes ingots, bars (like rebar), lumps, strips, wire... |
| 18:14 |
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| 18:15 |
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| 18:21 |
RobbieF |
Anyone recall off the top of their head the setting I need to add to fix "hands in the air" with 3d armor? |
| 18:21 |
RobbieF |
(at least, I think that was the mod that caused it, might be wrong) |
| 18:28 |
paramat |
i think gold lumps should still be smelted before becoming currency, and yes it could be 9 coins to the ingot |
| 18:28 |
paramat |
maybe with an unrealistic but consistent 2 way recipe |
| 18:30 |
sofar |
I wouldn't mind coins, but they should really be alloys :) |
| 18:31 |
Shara |
I'm wondering why players would go to the trouble of making them, when they can just use gold directly. |
| 18:31 |
paramat |
small change? |
| 18:32 |
Shara |
It just seems needless to me. |
| 18:32 |
paramat |
gold doesn't have much usage in mtg so adding coins would be a nice usage |
| 18:32 |
paramat |
oh you mean use the lumps directly? |
| 18:32 |
Shara |
Yes, but gold is so easy to get anyway. (Everything is). And what would you by that would be worth less than 1 gold once you reached the point of having gold to spend? |
| 18:33 |
Shara |
you buy* |
| 18:34 |
sofar |
currencies are easy to make, but hard to make good currencies |
| 18:34 |
Shara |
sofar: That's the problem. |
| 18:34 |
sofar |
if you only use resources, it'll fail |
| 18:34 |
sofar |
if you combine resources with time-consuming operations, it will be better |
| 18:35 |
sofar |
so adding a step where you make coins that takes time, will make it a better currency |
| 18:35 |
Shara |
MTG especially has nothing that is going to drive much of a market. |
| 18:35 |
rubenwardy |
I got a crate full of mese blocks when trading on Redcrab |
| 18:35 |
sofar |
e.g. a minting machine that takes X time to make a coin |
| 18:35 |
rubenwardy |
many profits |
| 18:36 |
sofar |
and if you'd require both cheap and rare materials to make coins, you'd make it a bit more consuming to mine for the ores |
| 18:36 |
sofar |
I've often found that coal in MC can be a limiting factor |
| 18:36 |
Shara |
Unless a server has mesecons or some other mod that uses mese a lot, I don't see having stacks of mese as profit. |
| 18:36 |
sofar |
unless you make wood too good of a fuel |
| 18:36 |
rubenwardy |
Shara, mese was the second rarest thing in those days |
| 18:37 |
rubenwardy |
after nyancats |
| 18:37 |
Shara |
But if coins take a lot of work to produce (they should really), how do you encourage players to use coins and not just trade the materials. |
| 18:37 |
Shara |
The materials can afterall be used to make things, and the coins have no further purpose. |
| 18:37 |
rubenwardy |
licensed production |
| 18:38 |
rubenwardy |
the government is the only one to make money |
| 18:38 |
Shara |
So you prevent trades using anything else? |
| 18:38 |
rubenwardy |
and have lots of exits to avoid super inflation |
| 18:38 |
Shara |
(and now it's the government making the coins, not the player, so the crafting is gone?) |
| 18:39 |
rubenwardy |
players provide a service to get the coins |
| 18:39 |
Shara |
It could be nice if done on a server, or singleplayer game, with just the right set up |
| 18:39 |
sofar |
taxes, you mean |
| 18:39 |
sofar |
:P |
| 18:39 |
sofar |
I'm all for experimenting with that, btw |
| 18:39 |
* rubenwardy |
is currently working on a capitalism game |
| 18:39 |
sofar |
especially if you create a basic income model :) |
| 18:39 |
rubenwardy |
started it on saturday |
| 18:40 |
Shara |
Hmm, didn't you mention that some time back as well? |
| 18:40 |
sofar |
also, health insurance and social safety nets need to be in place |
| 18:40 |
rubenwardy |
yeah, except I have some time now :D |
| 18:40 |
sofar |
as well as retirement |
| 18:41 |
* Shara |
waits for MT: The financial management sim |
| 18:41 |
Shara |
But do look forward to seeing what you come up with for it |
| 18:42 |
rubenwardy |
I've finished companies, and am now working on shops |
| 18:42 |
rubenwardy |
well, mostly tracebullet |
| 18:50 |
rubenwardy |
is it possible to only allow an stack to be moved from a detached inventory to a particular player inventory? |
| 18:50 |
paramat |
hmm reading all this makes me think maybe leave currency to mods .. |
| 18:51 |
rubenwardy |
the reason gold worked as a currency in real life is because it's quite rare, and not many people have the ability to mine it |
| 18:51 |
rubenwardy |
but that's not the case in MT |
| 18:55 |
Krock |
but in MT you also have item loss due bones, leaving players or many new ones |
| 18:55 |
Shara |
paramat: I'd say so. With the right set up it could be a real nice thing, but in MTG I think it would mostly be adding a pointless item. |
| 18:56 |
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| 18:57 |
paramat |
yeah we could do without the extra work anyway |
| 19:25 |
Fixer |
1 gold ingot = 9 coins is good idea |
| 19:26 |
paramat |
best left to an optional mod i feel |
| 19:27 |
Shara |
paramat: what arer the current plans for MTG? |
| 19:27 |
Shara |
are* |
| 19:27 |
Shara |
Specifically in terms of new content |
| 19:32 |
paramat |
erm .. |
| 19:32 |
lisac |
hey paramat, maybe shops could generate in mtg |
| 19:35 |
Fixer |
paramat: somewhat confused about this https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/pull/1813#issuecomment-315827082 |
| 19:35 |
Shara |
Good answer. |
| 19:35 |
paramat |
maybe a crafted telescope item to enable zoom priviledge |
| 19:36 |
Fixer |
paramat: nevermind, figured it out |
| 19:36 |
paramat |
big ans wide jungletrees up to 32 nodes high |
| 19:36 |
paramat |
green flowers to complete the rainbow colours |
| 19:37 |
paramat |
some underwater plants, now possible due to new drawtype |
| 19:37 |
Shara |
I would love to see nice underwater plants |
| 19:38 |
paramat |
coloured beds for all wool colours |
| 19:38 |
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| 19:39 |
paramat |
maybe more coral colours |
| 19:39 |
Shara |
Still no use for coral though? |
| 19:39 |
paramat |
i want to actually use the new silver and desert sandstones in mapgen |
| 19:39 |
Fixer |
hmmhmhmhmh |
| 19:39 |
paramat |
that's roughly all |
| 19:40 |
* Shara |
waits for Fixer to mention clay |
| 19:40 |
Fixer |
paramat: this new window size you proposed, it feels like UI itself is too small now |
| 19:40 |
paramat |
coral has a use, it makes sea look nice (to some) |
| 19:40 |
Fixer |
Coloured clay |
| 19:40 |
paramat |
gold has no use in mtg |
| 19:40 |
Shara |
I very much dislike suggested change to window size |
| 19:40 |
Fixer |
coloured baked clay* |
| 19:41 |
Fixer |
notice this https://i.imgur.com/xGMSUY3.png |
| 19:41 |
Fixer |
how much empty space |
| 19:41 |
paramat |
sorry, another dev asked for 1024 |
| 19:41 |
Fixer |
and server description is not fitting |
| 19:41 |
Shara |
paramat: no offence, but it's a non-coding issue so user opinion should matter a bit more on this really |
| 19:42 |
Fixer |
UI needs to be like 15 symbols wider to fit almost all server descriptions |
| 19:42 |
Fixer |
i mean names*** |
| 19:42 |
paramat |
coloured building materials .. i would prefer non-clay, maybe painted stone |
| 19:42 |
Fixer |
does not matter |
| 19:42 |
Fixer |
can be stone |
| 19:43 |
Fixer |
tp1 baked clay mod has some very nice textures |
| 19:43 |
Fixer |
it is used in mc a lot, and in mt too (where installed) |
| 19:43 |
paramat |
yeah i changed it to 1152x603 due to your and other's requests, but was asked to return to 1024, makes sense as a minimum screen size. so too bad, sorry :] |
| 19:43 |
Fixer |
it must have stair and slab suppoty |
| 19:43 |
Shara |
Making height of window less is a horrible thing |
| 19:44 |
Shara |
I have no issues at all with a genuine increase, but this is not one. |
| 19:44 |
Fixer |
paramat: size is not a problem, problem is UI scaling imho |
| 19:44 |
paramat |
it doesn't feel smaller at all, even vertically |
| 19:44 |
Shara |
Does to me |
| 19:44 |
Fixer |
paramat: server names don't fit |
| 19:44 |
Fixer |
weird scale |
| 19:44 |
Fixer |
close enough |
| 19:44 |
IhrFussel |
Anyone a clue what this means? https://i.imgur.com/Os1lcujr.jpg ... happened while installing Xubuntu 14.04 on my HDD, but didn't happen again since |
| 19:44 |
Fixer |
it does feel small to me for some reason |
| 19:44 |
Fixer |
not the window but UI itself |
| 19:45 |
Fixer |
IhrFussel: replace GPU |
| 19:45 |
Fixer |
at least try with different one |
| 19:45 |
Fixer |
check cable |
| 19:45 |
Fixer |
check fans |
| 19:45 |
Fixer |
or funs |
| 19:45 |
Fixer |
fans |
| 19:45 |
Fixer |
check PSU |
| 19:45 |
Fixer |
check memory |
| 19:45 |
Fixer |
check everything |
| 19:47 |
IhrFussel |
It actually happened twice...both times WHILE downloading something (1st time it downloaded 3rd-party-software and 2nd time I downloaded a Xubuntu iso with Firefox) ... it did not happen anymore since and that was over 24 hours ago |
| 19:49 |
IhrFussel |
It only happened on 14.04 32-bit so far... I upgraded to 16.04 64-bit now and it seems fine...driver issues? |
| 19:49 |
KaadmY |
Heh |
| 19:49 |
KaadmY |
Not trying to be bothersome, but everything breaks when IhrFussel touchs it |
| 19:50 |
paramat |
Fixer how would screen size affect UI size? does this happen with 800x600 too? |
| 19:50 |
IhrFussel |
KaadmY, =P well I bought this PC used from some IT shop for $90 ... so I hope they did NOT sell me defunct hardware |
| 19:52 |
paramat |
if it's no worse than 800x600 then no problem |
| 19:56 |
Fixer |
paramat: window size* |
| 19:57 |
paramat |
yeah window size |
| 19:59 |
Fixer |
paramat: it does not scale much if you increase the width |
| 20:00 |
Fixer |
paramat: basicly you increased frm 800x600 to 1024x600 or smth, yet UI is literally the same width |
| 20:00 |
Shara |
Fixer is correct |
| 20:00 |
Shara |
It's basically the height that controls it |
| 20:00 |
Shara |
You've reduced the height |
| 20:01 |
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| 20:01 |
Shara |
So the actual menu part now has reduced width, while whole window has increased width |
| 20:01 |
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| 20:01 |
Shara |
Please use a different size default. |
| 20:03 |
garywhite |
what about 1024x576? |
| 20:03 |
Shara |
That's what it now is |
| 20:03 |
Shara |
The problem is the reduction from x600 |
| 20:04 |
garywhite |
What about going to the 4:3 800x600? We don't need 16:9 MT rn, maybe save it for 0.5 |
| 20:04 |
Shara |
In fact, the whole menu is not designed for 16:9. |
| 20:04 |
Shara |
Though it's a non-issue if the original height is kept as a minimum |
| 20:06 |
IhrFussel |
I like 16:9 it fits the sides of my screen perfectly :P (1024x768) |
| 20:06 |
Shara |
1024x768 would be fine. |
| 20:07 |
Calinou |
1024x768 is not 16:9 though |
| 20:07 |
Calinou |
also |
| 20:07 |
Calinou |
who the fuck plays Minetest without maximizing the window |
| 20:07 |
IhrFussel |
Lol that would be fullscreen...I meant the sides of the screen |
| 20:07 |
Shara |
Anything at all is fine by me if neither dimension is reduced |
| 20:07 |
IhrFussel |
One sec I'll show you what I mean |
| 20:09 |
Shara |
I think this was mainly a case of "don't fix what isn't broken" in all honesty |
| 20:09 |
Shara |
800x600 was fine. People could resize if they wanted larger |
| 20:10 |
paramat |
Fixer so 800x600 does not have this effect? you're unclear |
| 20:10 |
Shara |
paramat: See my comments above. 800x600 did not have this issue |
| 20:10 |
paramat |
has the vertical size reduction caused a UI issue? |
| 20:10 |
Shara |
It has |
| 20:11 |
paramat |
ok will increase |
| 20:11 |
Shara |
The menu width is tied to window height |
| 20:11 |
Fixer |
paramat: same effect, I just expected bigger UI after increasing width... |
| 20:12 |
Shara |
paramat: to see it, open game window, leave width alone, and change height |
| 20:12 |
Shara |
then try just changing width |
| 20:12 |
paramat |
i'll return it to my 2nd version which was 1072x603 |
| 20:13 |
Shara |
That would be fine |
| 20:13 |
Shara |
Menu will be basically the same size as in 800x600 |
| 20:13 |
paramat |
i actually prefer >600 so now we have a reason to :] |
| 20:14 |
Shara |
:) |
| 20:14 |
IhrFussel |
http://storage7.static.itmages.com/i/17/0717/h_1500322426_4200818_35ac85ff6f.png (sorry for long link screenshot software doesn't offer another service) |
| 20:15 |
Shara |
Snug :) |
| 20:16 |
Fixer |
paramat: i did this comparison https://i.imgur.com/Z6U7j6K.png |
| 20:17 |
Fixer |
paramat: in short, 1024x60? increased MINETEST sign but decreased GUI size itself o_0 |
| 20:17 |
Shara |
Hmmm |
| 20:18 |
IhrFussel |
The menu needs to be larger not the screen itself |
| 20:18 |
Shara |
Was logo enlarged at some point? |
| 20:18 |
Shara |
Or maybe logo is controlled by width? Menu by height?? |
| 20:18 |
Shara |
Yes... logo is by width |
| 20:19 |
IhrFussel |
I can not even see the port field correctly, it wasn't like that before |
| 20:19 |
Shara |
Hah.. fullscreen for me causes the logo to get so big it overlaps the tabs, |
| 20:19 |
Fixer |
paramat: or this gif https://imgur.com/a/OgoIH |
| 20:20 |
Fixer |
thats 800x600 vs new format |
| 20:21 |
Shara |
So menu design is really not very suitable for 16:9 in general |
| 20:22 |
Shara |
Resizing of logo should be controlled same way as resizing of menu |
| 20:22 |
paramat |
PR coming |
| 20:23 |
Fixer |
paramat: it is not really about window size itself, maybe UI scaling needs some rethinking or smth |
| 20:24 |
paramat |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/6147 |
| 20:24 |
Shara |
It's a combination of two things |
| 20:25 |
Shara |
paramat: To prevent smaller UI, you also need to look at logo scaling |
| 20:25 |
Fixer |
still funny, minetest logo - bigger, main menu ui - smaller |
| 20:25 |
Shara |
because logo maps to width |
| 20:25 |
IhrFussel |
800x600 is pre 2000 ... IMO 1024x5XX or 1024x6XX is better |
| 20:25 |
Shara |
then menu gets the remaining space... so increase in width means overall menu still has less height than before |
| 20:26 |
Fixer |
IhrFussel: yeah, I had 1024*768 in like year 2000 |
| 20:26 |
paramat |
ok test and comment in the PR, i'll change it to whatever is required to avoid smaller UI |
| 20:26 |
Shara |
paramat: change logo scaling |
| 20:26 |
Shara |
then with this PR it's fine |
| 20:26 |
IhrFussel |
paramat, is there no way to JUST increase the UI size? |
| 20:27 |
paramat |
yes the scaling maths may need rework |
| 20:30 |
Shara |
paramat: http://gingercat.tk/mt/MTlogo.png |
| 20:30 |
Shara |
Logo being able to do this is a bit silly? |
| 20:31 |
paramat |
! what window size? |
| 20:31 |
Shara |
Bigger than most can manage, but it shows the issue well |
| 20:32 |
Shara |
The logo scales on window width and seems to have no upper limit |
| 20:32 |
Shara |
menu gets whatever height is left after |
| 20:34 |
paramat |
ok yes that's too big |
| 20:35 |
Shara |
But even on regular fullscreen, the logo is cutting into the tabs for me |
| 20:35 |
paramat |
yes it does that sometimes |
| 20:36 |
Shara |
Sometimes? |
| 20:37 |
paramat |
not for me on 1072x603 |
| 20:37 |
Shara |
That's not full screen for most people |
| 20:38 |
paramat |
sorry, missed the word 'fullscreen' |
| 20:38 |
Fixer |
paramat: i do have same problem on 1280x1024, logo overpasses the UI border few pixels |
| 20:39 |
Fixer |
screenshot in few mins |
| 20:40 |
Fixer |
https://i.imgur.com/eIwrSDi.png |
| 20:40 |
Fixer |
1280x996 (does not include windows task bar) |
| 20:40 |
Shara |
Yes, similar to what I get |
| 20:43 |
Shara |
I just tested with 1920x1058 and had the same issue |
| 20:45 |
paramat |
logo issues can be another PR |
| 20:45 |
paramat |
logo overlapping is an old issue |
| 21:07 |
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| 21:21 |
Fixer |
that is pretty creative pattern https://i.imgur.com/J93oPE2.png |
| 21:21 |
Fixer |
clever |
| 21:23 |
Fixer |
new word: nabighor |
| 21:23 |
KaadmY |
Nice! re:pattern |
| 21:36 |
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paramat joined #minetest-hub |
| 21:39 |
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kaeza joined #minetest-hub |
| 21:54 |
Wayward_One |
hi, i'm trying to compile the latest git, but i keep getting a bunch of json errors: https://hastebin.com/fubosapuwe.vbs. i'm pretty sure i updated jsoncpp correctly. does anyone know what i might be missing? |
| 22:05 |
Fixer |
i think I've heared smth about json errors |
| 22:05 |
Fixer |
in here |
| 22:05 |
Fixer |
or on -dev |
| 22:11 |
Wayward_One |
good to know i may not be the only one then |
| 22:37 |
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Corvus_ joined #minetest-hub |
| 22:38 |
Fixer |
quite amazing https://i.imgur.com/4qCZeUG.png |
| 22:46 |
Fixer |
https://i.imgur.com/V1Neqtb.jpg |
| 23:02 |
Shara |
Were there any big changes to how alpha was handled for textures in 0.4.16? |
| 23:09 |
Shara |
Since switching to 0.4.16 on my server I've noticed nodes using alpha are paler, a couple now pale enough to be practically invisible, and noairblocks from the sea modpack is pretty much broken as well. |
| 23:14 |
Fixer |
Shara: check it out under newest minetest, just install those mods and inspect if issue still appears, I think there were some fixes/changes but I may be wrong |
| 23:14 |
Shara |
Newest for server or client? |
| 23:18 |
Shara |
Hmm, I guess client |
| 23:18 |
Shara |
Since connecting with old client the issue is gone |
| 23:18 |
Shara |
WHich means I cannot do anything to help the players |
| 23:21 |
Shara |
Old client: http://gingercat.tk/mt/MTnoair_old.png, stable client: http://gingercat.tk/mt/MTnoair.png :( |
| 23:24 |
Fixer |
Shara: client |
| 23:24 |
Fixer |
Shara: try newest client |
| 23:24 |
Shara |
Issue isn't about me. |
| 23:24 |
Shara |
I can't just get all players to update |
| 23:25 |
Shara |
And don't feel like fighting compiler for windows client again either |
| 23:31 |
garywhite |
What about client? |
| 23:31 |
Shara |
Anyway, thanks Fixer. At least I know the issue isn't on my side. |
| 23:32 |
Shara |
gary, read log |
| 23:32 |
garywhite |
ik, but I don't see the issue is what I'm saying |
| 23:32 |
Shara |
if you checked the screenshots and see no issue, I don't know how else to explain it |
| 23:33 |
garywhite |
Oh wait, lemme change my screen brightness, the bottom image is not very clear ATM |
