Time  Nick         Message
04:17 KaadmY       garywhite: no, it's just pining for the fjords.
08:17 Shara        Morning all
08:20 shivajiva    Good morning
08:24 celeron55    http://i.imgur.com/8VhYrzb.png
08:28 Shara        So no one needed to remind you :)
08:29 shivajiva    celeron55: I'm shutting skyblocks down at the end of the month. I can't run a public server for a project that officially supports hacking, who's contributors control the project by threatening to make hacked clients and distribute them...it's become quite clear to me since opening the issue on dirty clients and hearing what everyone has to say.
08:32 Shara        I am not exactly happy with the situation myself either.
08:34 Shara        It seems impossible to get any commitment from the developers that they will try to do something about some of the long term issues. Instead, there seems to be a trend toward attributing the problems to CSM, when that's only one small part.
08:35 celeron55    where is this issue?
08:35 celeron55    found it
08:37 Shara        These players who "hack" (barely seems worth calling it that) even basic privs can be a huge issue on certain types of server.
08:38 Shara        CSM is another issue on top of that.
08:40 celeron55    DRM is kind of difficult, there are companies making very, very expensive ones which still are routinely cracked
08:41 celeron55    i guess the only option would be to have a central authentication server with paid accounts or something
08:41 celeron55    i mean, it works for minecraft
08:41 celeron55    it doesn't have DRM, but it does have that
08:43 nerzhul      celeron55, libre network games are very difficult to protect, ti's almost impossible because everybody can do crap with clients, it's easier than reverse engineer
08:45 shivajiva    I wasn't looking for DRM, it's a dirty word but some kind of control would be nice. Centralised authentication would be nice for minetest. Server validation of what the client is allowed to do, would be a better solution imo
08:46 celeron55    MT's anticheat tries its best
08:46 celeron55    you can never make it 100% accurate without making the game feel completely awful for legit players
08:47 celeron55    the game mechanics aren't designed for easy anticheat like in some MMORPGs or such
08:48 shivajiva    is that something that can be attended to or are we to far down the path
08:48 celeron55    if you want to help develop anticheat, you could write down what exact ways it is being currently avoided in
08:49 Shara        fly / noclip are my biggest issues
08:49 Shara        On a PVP server, anyone who enables these for themselves has a huge advantage and legitimate players are left struggling, or in some cases, are even driven out
08:50 Shara        I have a fairly strong admin team, but we are still volunteers ourselves and can't police the server non-stop all hours of the day
08:51 shivajiva    fly/noclip are by far the biggest issues and the suggestion it's fine and server admins need to pick up the policing isn't really a comfortable solution
08:51 Shara        It's also difficult to verify player reports of cheating as well.
08:51 Shara        Nothing to show in the log (unless I am really missing something?) and if I start to ban on player word alone, then that will be easily exploited to get people banned
08:52 paramat      having fly/noclip subject to network lag seems ok to me, if that is an inevitable result of server authenticating it
08:52 paramat      some lag on those isn't much of an issue
08:53 celeron55    there's quite literally no handling for fly and noclip in the anticheat system, i don't think it would be impossible for me to start working on that
08:53 Shara        Whether or not it's an issue depends a lot on the type of server. For my creative, I'd mostly shrug my shoulders. I give fly anyway and players can earn noclip quite quickly. But for my survival server it's a big deal, and the CTF server I am in theory responsible for had huge issues with this as well.
08:54 celeron55    also it sounds like AC should log instances that could be cheating but might be just lag or something
08:55 Shara        Yes, a log of potential cheating could be useful, as it would flag which players to at least keep more of an eye on.
08:55 shivajiva    yes that sounds reasonable, some point of reference to backtrack to
08:56 Shara        When 15+ players on at a time isn't rare and admin/moderator hours in game are limited, we can't possibly keep watch on everyone closely enough to figure it out
08:56 CWz          i wonder if NCP+ fly and noclip prevention method could be implemented in minetest
08:56 Shara        but player reports of cheating + a log for this would very much narrow it down
08:57 celeron55    CWz: i've always had a plan how to do that but it's never gotten to the top of my list
08:57 shivajiva    +100 for moving it up your list
08:58 Shara        Cheating/security is my biggest concern with MT at the moment. Probably because of the increase in incidents I've seen over the last few months.
08:58 celeron55    basically i want to boil down player movement to node-by-node movement and check by pathfinding if a move was in any way possible
08:58 Shara        Yea, +100 doesn't begin to cover how much I want to see this
08:59 shivajiva    c55: that would nail it
09:06 paramat      c55 any help would be appreciated as we have a lack of active devs currently
09:08 CWz          how much devs do we have now
09:08 Shara        the question is how many "active" devs really.
09:08 CWz          Probably more than freeminer, hopefully
09:10 celeron55    i wanted to spend my summer leave from work playing ffxiv though
09:10 shivajiva    whether you like it or not c55, this project is driven by you, it was commented on yesterday in -dev, when you drive it, the momentum becomes exhilarating :D
09:13 shivajiva    you will note that paramat has to quote you to get people to see sense when it gets stupid
09:15 nerzhul      active devs ? 3 in terms of PR, 4 in terms on reviews
09:15 shivajiva    pls clone yourself :P
09:15 nerzhul      (coredevs)*
09:25 celeron55    good start; newest master doesn't even compile
09:26 celeron55    g++ 6.3.1 says: src/serverobject.h:151:31: error: default initialization of an object of const type 'const ItemGroupList' (aka 'const unordered_map<std::string, int>') without a user-provided default constructor
09:26 celeron55    that's a C++11 thing, right?
09:27 Shara        The switch to C++11 seemed to cause a lot of issues with compiling.
09:27 shivajiva    ^
09:27 Shara        I still don't understand why the issues with the json error was considered not an issue
09:27 Shara        the issue*
09:30 celeron55    apparently C++11 has decided that making a static const std::unordered_map<std::string, int> with its default constructor is not ok; that doesn't even make any sense but eh
09:31 celeron55    the fix was literally adding two "= {}"s
09:33 nerzhul      celeron55, someone has done ItemGroupList = {} ? if yes ItemGroupList() {} should exist
09:34 celeron55    see #-dev
10:15 Calinou      <shivajiva> I wasn't looking for DRM, it's a dirty word but some kind of control would be nice. Centralised authentication would be nice for minetest. Server validation of what the client is allowed to do, would be a better solution imo
10:15 Calinou      problem is that Minetest isn't remotely lag-free
10:15 Calinou      (Minecraft is just as bad though)
10:16 Calinou      if you want good server-side validation (or server-side movement, or stuff like that), you *need* low latency and error rates
10:16 Calinou      and lag spikes should basically be non-existent (probably impossible in a Minecraft-style game, with world loading, /clearobjects-style commands…)
10:16 Calinou      although, NoCheatPlus works decently in Minecraft, false positives happen but are fairly rare
10:17 Calinou      >Centralised authentication would be nice for minetest.
10:17 Calinou      that said, it would be nice to have, as long as it's possible for a server owner to opt-out
10:17 Calinou      (ie. require an account by default, but let the admin not require accounts if desired)
10:17 Calinou      it will make banning much easier, although the creation of alt accounts is still possible (but some things can be done to hinder it)
10:18 Calinou      Shara: also, the "spectator" mod is quite good to detect cheaters (or other troublemakers)
10:18 Calinou      but it requires manual intervention, so you have to hire some moderators :P
10:24 Shara        Calinou:
10:24 Shara        (9:50:22 AM) Shara: I have a fairly strong admin team
10:24 Shara        My servers have a lot of people capable of keeping an eye on things. "Get more moderators" is simply not an answer
10:26 Calinou      it's an answer for anything, actually
10:27 shivajiva    as server owners we understand the requirement for staffing but displacing the responsibility for allowing issues on to us is a poor solution
10:27 Calinou      you should always have a moderator on (at least) at all times
10:27 Calinou      it sounds daunting, but that's how proper moderation works
10:27 Calinou      nothing worse than not having any moderator online
10:28 Shara        Calinou: I've been involved with open source games for rather a long time. I do always have moderators available. Available and actively in the game (note that being active on IRC doesn't help with this specific issue due to lack of logging here) are two different things as well.
10:28 Calinou      yeah
10:28 Calinou      but even in games that have eg. votekicking, having moderators available is very important
10:28 Calinou      (and Minecraft-style games don't play well with votekicking anyway)
10:29 Shara        I will not allow votekicking on my servers. Too easy to abuse
10:29 Fixer        Calinou: kids don't play will with votekicking*
10:29 Calinou      it doesn't work with MMO-ish games anyway
10:29 Calinou      (for various reasons)
10:29 Fixer        well*
10:29 Shara        My strategy is to grant basic moderator privs to most long term players who showed some responsibility. I often don't call them moderators.
10:29 Calinou      yeah, that's fine
10:30 Shara        Most obvious rule breaking (for example spam/bad language/issues with players fighting and so on...) gets dealt with quickly and with no issues at all.
10:31 Shara        A bit moreso on RC, but it's the oldest of my servers, but DL is getting there as well.
10:32 Shara        I like to get to know people a bit before I just grant privs, so it takes time for a team for any specific server to grow.
10:32 Shara        But if I keep adding more moderators, soon enough I'd have more moderators than players.
10:33 Shara        And maybe that's okay, but it's actually a ridiculous situation to need that
10:33 paramat      CSM API has 'play sound', perhaps that needs a restriction? https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/5930#issuecomment-315719052
10:33 Shara        As shivajiva siad... at some point it seems like a responsibility is being displaced
10:34 paramat      just wait for 'fart mod' :]
10:34 Shara        paramat: You likely just sped it's arrival.
10:34 Shara        :)
10:34 shivajiva    players with guardian mentality will instinctively moderate and seek help from moderators, it does police itself to some degree but when that is overwhelmed we lose players and authority
10:35 Shara        The hacked client use can't be moderated as easy as many other issues.
10:35 paramat      lol
10:36 Shara        On DL, the main troublemakers seemed to be timing it for when I wasn't around as well.
10:36 Shara        And then when we got hit by people who could circumvent bans...
10:36 Shara        It just got ugly.
10:38 Shara        I have come close to losing my best moderator there because of the abuse he was taking.
10:39 Calinou      you could write a mod to ban VPNs
10:39 Calinou      (you will probably get some flak for doing so though)
10:39 Calinou      (posted it here already), https://github.com/pisto/ASkidban
10:39 Calinou      sometimes, temporary ISP-wide bans can help too
10:40 Shara        I have had to ban several quite large ranges in some cases
10:40 Shara        Though thankfully that was for a country that I only ever saw the player in question coming from
10:41 Calinou      gotta like troublemakers who live in unpopular countries :)
10:42 Shara        The one in question was a menace and managed to get full privs on a few servers, mostly by impersonating me.
10:42 Calinou      yeah, global accounts would help for name protection as well
10:42 Calinou      lots of other things can be done with global accounts too
10:42 Shara        Though I still struggle with why anyone would type /grant Shara all without verifying on IRC it was me.
10:42 Calinou      syncing/backing up personal settings, for example
10:42 shivajiva    I tried to implement a VPN ban using a lookup service but the sheer amount of traffic coupled with server crashes soon saw me exceed the free limits at the service, resulting in a ban even though I cached the results for 24 hours
10:42 Calinou      and global stats (eg. play time)
10:43 Shara        global accounts is something I feel conflicted about
10:43 Calinou      if they're optional, I'm fine with them
10:43 Calinou      (like in eg. Warsow)
10:43 Shara        I have lost long term names I used elsewhere when such things were implemented
10:43 Calinou      it means we'll have to maintain some official infrastructure for it though
10:43 Shara        and I know MT has another player going by "Shara" who may well have been around longer than me
10:44 Shara        (It's why I started identifying as "Shara RedCat" instead on anything I publish)
10:47 shivajiva    optional sound fine to me, I would consider validating against a google account as it's become pretty much universal based on 90% of the players using droid
10:48 Calinou      sounds like a bad idea though
10:48 Calinou      please no proprietary services :P
10:48 shivajiva    lol kk
10:48 Calinou      optionally linking to other accounts (for added verification) can be useful
10:48 Calinou      but don't make it a requirement
10:48 Calinou      rolling your own account infrastructure isn't that hard
10:49 Calinou      (but it's time-consuming for sure)
10:49 shivajiva    I started by saying optional was fine
10:51 Calinou      lol, Freeminer devs gave up today apparently
10:51 Calinou      I'm not surprised, for some reason
10:51 Calinou      https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=7864&start=200
10:56 paramat      i feel we should try all else before central accounts, partly due to effort needed (we don't have dev time to spare)
10:57 Calinou      what else should be tried then?
10:57 shivajiva    it's appropriate that dev choose the path, it's their time after all
10:59 Shara        After what was said today, I am hoping celeron55 looks at player movement. If noclip/fly cheating can be dealt with somehow, that would fix a lot of trouble
10:59 shivajiva    ^ +1000
11:00 paramat      i might have worked on some of this but it's an area of code i'm hopeless at
11:00 Shara        centralising accounts won't do anything toward that and would be yet another "new feature" that could open up all kinds of new issues again
11:00 IhrFussel    Hello there guys...question: how many if conditions in a row is too much? I mean by how much does a condition slow down the server? the data it compares is just a table string
11:00 Shara        Would be really nice to see what we have already made stable an dsolid, instead of piling more new things onto the (possibly quite broken?) base
11:00 Shara        and solid*
11:01 Shara        Hi Fussel.
11:04 shivajiva    I tend to try to stick to 3, after that I try to devise object code to handle decisions, depends on what you're doing
11:08 Fixer        Shara: ks
11:08 Fixer        Shara: oops
11:08 Fixer        Shara: is not anticheat prevents at least fly?
11:09 Shara        Fixer: It does not prevent fly
11:09 Shara        It limits fast only from what I have seen
11:09 Shara        You can still move fast but it sort of teleports you back when it detects it
11:12 Fixer        there is this unfinished PR: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/3894
11:12 Fixer        (Add serverside noclip enforcement)
11:12 Fixer        is someone wants to continue
11:12 Fixer        Shara: the only solution for now is having more admins
11:15 IhrFussel    Fixer, for fly you can simply add a globalstep function that checks if there is air below the player and if so increment a counter..if it hits a certain number detect as cheating
11:15 Shara        Fixer: are you volunteering to admin for me then? I have added as many admins as I possibly can so far...
11:15 IhrFussel    I don't need that though on my server since any player who built a house gets fly
11:15 Fixer        IhrFussel: don't forget jumping, laddeers, liquids etc
11:16 Fixer        Shara: nah :D
11:16 Fixer        admining kids is worst
11:16 Shara        This is an open offer to anyone in this channel interested in helping moderate a server with known hacked client issues
11:17 Shara        Fixer: yup, but I am going to just promote random unknown players to admin
11:17 IhrFussel    liquids are no air, jumping won't trigger the counter (too short) and you could check if the player only moves upwards while in air and detect it as "ladder"
11:17 Shara        I am NOT*
11:18 Shara        Fussel, sounds like this would add a crazy number of checks
11:18 paramat      celeron55 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/3894 might be useful if you haven't seen it
11:19 Shara        Also how frequent the check would need to be... Just flkying through a wall to attack players who were sheltering takes less than a second
11:19 Shara        flying*
11:23 Fixer        so both freeminer and voxelands are pretty much dead or stagnant
11:24 CWz_         i was rootin fo voxellands
11:24 Calinou      Voxelands got off from a wrong start
11:24 Calinou      (monolithic game)
11:25 * CWz_       is no hip with the latest voxal lingo, what does "monolithic game" mean
11:25 Calinou      everything was hardcoded in C++, no mods
11:25 CWz_         Oh
11:25 Calinou      they did so for "performance reasons" but it really doesn't matter anymore
11:27 CWz_         freeminer.org seems to just link to their github now
11:34 IhrFussel    Shara, you obviously can't prevent such quick assaults, just like you can't really prevent players from glitching through walls/doors if they are quick enough
11:35 Shara        Either way I'd very much like to see something in MT itself for handling this, instead of trying to hack together a mod.
11:36 IhrFussel    It wouldn't be many checks though and you shouldn't run the checks every step either...I'd say 0.5 secs is enough
11:40 CWz_         How bad is the cheater pandemic, Shara?
11:41 Shara        A few weeks ago it hit a high
11:41 IhrFussel    1ts check is if the pos below the player is air, if not skip loop iteration...if yes check if 3 nodes below player is air too, if no skip loop iteration...if yes check player movement ... I don't think that's too bad
11:41 Shara        We opened the server to new players again this week, so will see how it goes
11:41 IhrFussel    1st*
11:42 shivajiva    bad enough to warrant the call for something to be done is the simple answer
11:42 Shara        That
11:42 IhrFussel    Of course you should only loop on players without fly priv (I wouldn't add that to the loop though I'd add a table value on joining)
11:57 paramat      sorry, CSM sound is already only heard by the local player, so no concern
11:58 Shara        Good then :)
12:35 CWz_         Ello everywan
12:36 paramat      actually, the fact there isn't already a fart mod was an obvious clue that CSM cannot send sounds to other players
12:36 DS-minetest  lol
12:37 shivajiva    =)
12:43 CWz_         paramat, i sort of already made one in private
12:43 CWz_         a normal mod that is
12:47 paramat      hehe
12:51 lisac        hey if CSM could send sounds to other players we could have in game voice chat
12:51 nerzhul      lisac, no
12:51 lisac        lol
12:51 nerzhul      it's not CSM purpose
12:51 lisac        of course
12:51 nerzhul      *Client Side*
12:51 lisac        can we get voice chat, then? :D
12:51 nerzhul      no
12:51 nerzhul      use mumble
12:51 lisac        :(
12:51 lisac        no positional audio
12:52 Fixer        there was positional audio PR, where is it?
12:52 nerzhul      on many game they include audio support, but this never works because users uses generally mumble or TS (on PC)
12:52 nerzhul      Fixer, yeah ShadowNinja did it
12:55 Calinou      built-in VoIP is sometimes usefulb
12:55 Calinou      but in the case of Minetest, it isn't
12:55 Calinou      this isn't a competitive game
13:09 Jordach      http://i.imgur.com/8xDqO1s.png
13:11 Wayward_One  hi all :)
13:17 CWz_         Wayward_One,
13:20 * CWz_       wants an 128-bit CPU
13:21 CWz_         Oh no Wayward_One is afk
13:22 Wayward_One  lol hi CWz :)
13:31 CWz_         Campus?
13:33 Wayward_One  nope, home
13:42 shivajiva    Fixer: https://github.com/Bremaweb/minetest/tree/mumble-pos-audio
13:45 shivajiva    https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/3739
15:11 Krock        > me, on youtube
15:11 Krock        > "create playlist"  *enters name*
15:12 Krock        > "This playlist does not exist"
15:12 Krock        oh thanks
15:17 Fixer        Krock: you are welcome :D
16:33 IhrFussel    Someone asked me to add "projection lights" to my server ... I don't even think Irrlicht/MT support that
16:34 Shara        IhrFussel: it's a mod
16:34 IhrFussel    How does it work? Have only light from one side?
16:35 Shara        It's light that travels further than normal
16:35 Shara        Good for lighting in giant rooms where otherwise ceiling lights won't reach the ground
16:35 IhrFussel    But not with the regular light code right?
16:36 Shara        I guess it's this: https://github.com/pinkysnowman/projection_light
16:36 IhrFussel    Max is 14 or 15 and that's wayyy too dark
16:36 Shara        I have the mod on RC, but don't know which version I use
16:36 Shara        Since someone emailed me it a long time ago
16:41 IhrFussel    For each light node it adds SIXTY other nodes in one direction if I read that correctly
16:41 IhrFussel    That's hacky as heck
16:42 paramat      only as far as there is air or water
16:43 paramat      it's clever and possibly the only way in a mod
16:43 Shara        And can make a huge difference in large builds
16:46 IhrFussel    But if one node adds up to 60 extra nodes...that's kinda much
16:47 Shara        It never gave me any problems
16:59 paramat      adding up to 60 nodes is no problem, but it could perhaps use a lua voxel manip instead to have just 1 light update instead of a light update per node
17:05 Krock        or try to manipulate the light with the voxelmanip
17:06 Krock        = no nodes to add
17:06 paramat      then there's no way to know which nodes to return to normal on removal
17:08 Krock        hmm.. well then, add one control node :3
17:08 Krock        one node vs 60 perviously
17:09 Krock        *pre
17:17 lisac        hey I made a form about gold usage on minetest servers, if you've got a minute, please: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1G8SX1pVHYvoOA8T2d57Qi1sZYSEUZo7VCujYx1QO9J8
17:20 paramat      hmm i may be making gold less rare at greater depths -> inflation problems
17:22 bigfoot547   lisac: you made a typo: Converting to currency (ex. crafting bitoins out of ingots)
17:23 bigfoot547   should be bitcoins not bitoins
17:23 bigfoot547   right?
17:23 lisac        hm right
17:23 lisac        there should be fixed now
17:23 bigfoot547   Yep, it's fixed.
17:24 lisac        paramat, there isn't much use for gold in minetest_game, so I was thinking currency mods aren't really necessary.
17:24 lisac        maybe a simple exchange shop would work
17:24 lisac        with gold being the primary currency
17:24 * Krock      hints to bitchange:shop
17:24 paramat      yeah gold is ideal as currency
17:24 lisac        Krock, I think bitchange has bitcoins
17:25 lisac        paramat, would also be nice if players could track amount of gold currently in the world
17:25 Krock        minecoins, but the shop isn't bound to the currency
17:25 lisac        that way you can adjust prices when amount of gold goes up/down
17:35 Krock        "This item currently costs you 13.37666 gold ingots. Check for this count of items failed. Check your inventory for 13.37666 gold ingots."  /s
17:36 Krock        ..which reminds me to an old idea. Are there credit cards anywhere?
17:52 sofar        if you add gold nuggets into the matrix you've got a good spread of currency
17:53 sofar        e.g. 9 nuggets to the bar
18:09 paramat      hmm maybe we should add a smaller gold division (a ninth-ingot) into mtg?
18:11 VanessaE     why not just directly add a coin?
18:11 VanessaE     9 coins to one lump/ingot
18:12 VanessaE     consider though, paramat
18:12 VanessaE     there was a proposal a while back, gets brought up every so often, of adding a basic metals submod
18:12 Krock        and make gold ores drop nuggets
18:12 VanessaE     something that makes ingots, bars (like rebar), lumps, strips, wire...
18:21 RobbieF      Anyone recall off the top of their head the setting I need to add to fix "hands in the air" with 3d armor?
18:21 RobbieF      (at least, I think that was the mod that caused it, might be wrong)
18:28 paramat      i think gold lumps should still be smelted before becoming currency, and yes it could be 9 coins to the ingot
18:28 paramat      maybe with an unrealistic but consistent 2 way recipe
18:30 sofar        I wouldn't mind coins, but they should really be alloys :)
18:31 Shara        I'm wondering why players would go to the trouble of making them, when they can just use gold directly.
18:31 paramat      small change?
18:32 Shara        It just seems needless to me.
18:32 paramat      gold doesn't have much usage in mtg so adding coins would be a nice usage
18:32 paramat      oh you mean use the lumps directly?
18:32 Shara        Yes, but gold is so easy to get anyway. (Everything is). And what would you by that would be worth less than 1 gold once you reached the point of having gold to spend?
18:33 Shara        you buy*
18:34 sofar        currencies are easy to make, but hard to make good currencies
18:34 Shara        sofar: That's the problem.
18:34 sofar        if you only use resources, it'll fail
18:34 sofar        if you combine resources with time-consuming operations, it will be better
18:35 sofar        so adding a step where you make coins that takes time, will make it a better currency
18:35 Shara        MTG especially has nothing that is going to drive much of a market.
18:35 rubenwardy   I got a crate full of mese blocks when trading on Redcrab
18:35 sofar        e.g. a minting machine that takes X time to make a coin
18:35 rubenwardy   many profits
18:36 sofar        and if you'd require both cheap and rare materials to make coins, you'd make it a bit more consuming to mine for the ores
18:36 sofar        I've often found that coal in MC can be a limiting factor
18:36 Shara        Unless a server has mesecons or some other mod that uses mese a lot, I don't see having stacks of mese as profit.
18:36 sofar        unless you make wood too good of a fuel
18:36 rubenwardy   Shara, mese was the second rarest thing in those days
18:37 rubenwardy   after nyancats
18:37 Shara        But if coins take a lot of work to produce (they should really), how do you encourage players to use coins and not just trade the materials.
18:37 Shara        The materials can afterall be used to make things, and the coins have no further purpose.
18:37 rubenwardy   licensed production
18:38 rubenwardy   the government is the only one to make money
18:38 Shara        So you prevent trades using anything else?
18:38 rubenwardy   and have lots of exits to avoid super inflation
18:38 Shara        (and now it's the government making the coins, not the player, so the crafting is gone?)
18:39 rubenwardy   players provide a service to get the coins
18:39 Shara        It could be nice if done on a server, or singleplayer game, with just the right set up
18:39 sofar        taxes, you mean
18:39 sofar        :P
18:39 sofar        I'm all for experimenting with that, btw
18:39 * rubenwardy is currently working on a capitalism game
18:39 sofar        especially if you create a basic income model :)
18:39 rubenwardy   started it on saturday
18:40 Shara        Hmm, didn't you mention that some time back as well?
18:40 sofar        also, health insurance and social safety nets need to be in place
18:40 rubenwardy   yeah, except I have some time now :D
18:40 sofar        as well as retirement
18:41 * Shara      waits for MT: The financial management sim
18:41 Shara        But do look forward to seeing what you come up with for it
18:42 rubenwardy   I've finished companies, and am now working on shops
18:42 rubenwardy   well, mostly tracebullet
18:50 rubenwardy   is it possible to only allow an stack to be moved from a detached inventory to a particular player inventory?
18:50 paramat      hmm reading all this makes me think maybe leave currency to mods ..
18:51 rubenwardy   the reason gold worked as a currency in real life is because it's quite rare, and not many people have the ability to mine it
18:51 rubenwardy   but that's not the case in MT
18:55 Krock        but in MT you also have item loss due bones, leaving players or many new ones
18:55 Shara        paramat: I'd say so. With the right set up it could be a real nice thing, but in MTG I think it would mostly be adding a pointless item.
18:57 paramat      yeah we could do without the extra work anyway
19:25 Fixer        1 gold ingot = 9 coins is good idea
19:26 paramat      best left to an optional mod i feel
19:27 Shara        paramat: what arer the current plans for MTG?
19:27 Shara        are*
19:27 Shara        Specifically in terms of new content
19:32 paramat      erm ..
19:32 lisac        hey paramat, maybe shops could generate in mtg
19:35 Fixer        paramat: somewhat confused about this https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/pull/1813#issuecomment-315827082
19:35 Shara        Good answer.
19:35 paramat      maybe a crafted telescope item to enable zoom priviledge
19:36 Fixer        paramat: nevermind, figured it out
19:36 paramat      big ans wide jungletrees up to 32 nodes high
19:36 paramat      green flowers to complete the rainbow colours
19:37 paramat      some underwater plants, now possible due to new drawtype
19:37 Shara        I would love to see nice underwater plants
19:38 paramat      coloured beds for all wool colours
19:39 paramat      maybe more coral colours
19:39 Shara        Still no use for coral though?
19:39 paramat      i want to actually use the new silver and desert sandstones in mapgen
19:39 Fixer        hmmhmhmhmh
19:39 paramat      that's roughly all
19:40 * Shara      waits for Fixer to mention clay
19:40 Fixer        paramat: this new window size you proposed, it feels like UI itself is too small now
19:40 paramat      coral has a use, it makes sea look nice (to some)
19:40 Fixer        Coloured clay
19:40 paramat      gold has no use in mtg
19:40 Shara        I very much dislike suggested change to window size
19:40 Fixer        coloured baked clay*
19:41 Fixer        notice this https://i.imgur.com/xGMSUY3.png
19:41 Fixer        how much empty space
19:41 paramat      sorry, another dev asked for 1024
19:41 Fixer        and server description is not fitting
19:41 Shara        paramat: no offence, but it's a non-coding issue so user opinion should matter a bit more on this really
19:42 Fixer        UI needs to be like 15 symbols wider to fit almost all server descriptions
19:42 Fixer        i mean names***
19:42 paramat      coloured building materials .. i would prefer non-clay, maybe painted stone
19:42 Fixer        does not matter
19:42 Fixer        can be stone
19:43 Fixer        tp1 baked clay mod has some very nice textures
19:43 Fixer        it is used in mc a lot, and in mt too (where installed)
19:43 paramat      yeah i changed it to 1152x603 due to your and other's requests, but was asked to return to 1024, makes sense as a minimum screen size. so too bad, sorry :]
19:43 Fixer        it must have stair and slab suppoty
19:43 Shara        Making height of window less is a horrible thing
19:44 Shara        I have no issues at all with a genuine increase, but this is not one.
19:44 Fixer        paramat: size is not a problem, problem is UI scaling imho
19:44 paramat      it doesn't feel smaller at all, even vertically
19:44 Shara        Does to me
19:44 Fixer        paramat: server names don't fit
19:44 Fixer        weird scale
19:44 Fixer        close enough
19:44 IhrFussel    Anyone a clue what this means? https://i.imgur.com/Os1lcujr.jpg ... happened while installing Xubuntu 14.04 on my HDD, but didn't happen again since
19:44 Fixer        it does feel small to me for some reason
19:44 Fixer        not the window but UI itself
19:45 Fixer        IhrFussel: replace GPU
19:45 Fixer        at least try with different one
19:45 Fixer        check cable
19:45 Fixer        check fans
19:45 Fixer        or funs
19:45 Fixer        fans
19:45 Fixer        check PSU
19:45 Fixer        check memory
19:45 Fixer        check everything
19:47 IhrFussel    It actually happened twice...both times WHILE downloading something (1st time it downloaded 3rd-party-software and 2nd time I downloaded a Xubuntu iso with Firefox) ... it did not happen anymore since and that was over 24 hours ago
19:49 IhrFussel    It only happened on 14.04 32-bit so far... I upgraded to 16.04 64-bit now and it seems fine...driver issues?
19:49 KaadmY       Heh
19:49 KaadmY       Not trying to be bothersome, but everything breaks when IhrFussel touchs it
19:50 paramat      Fixer how would screen size affect UI size? does this happen with 800x600 too?
19:50 IhrFussel    KaadmY, =P well I bought this PC used from some IT shop for $90 ... so I hope they did NOT sell me defunct hardware
19:52 paramat      if it's no worse than 800x600 then no problem
19:56 Fixer        paramat: window size*
19:57 paramat      yeah window size
19:59 Fixer        paramat: it does not scale much if you increase the width
20:00 Fixer        paramat: basicly you increased frm 800x600 to 1024x600 or smth, yet UI is literally the same width
20:00 Shara        Fixer is correct
20:00 Shara        It's basically the height that controls it
20:00 Shara        You've reduced the height
20:01 Shara        So the actual menu part now has reduced width, while whole window has increased width
20:01 Shara        Please use a different size default.
20:03 garywhite    what about 1024x576?
20:03 Shara        That's what it now is
20:03 Shara        The problem is the reduction from x600
20:04 garywhite    What about going to the 4:3 800x600? We don't need 16:9 MT rn, maybe save it for 0.5
20:04 Shara        In fact, the whole menu is not designed for 16:9.
20:04 Shara        Though it's a non-issue if the original height is kept as a minimum
20:06 IhrFussel    I like 16:9 it fits the sides of my screen perfectly :P (1024x768)
20:06 Shara        1024x768 would be fine.
20:07 Calinou      1024x768 is not 16:9 though
20:07 Calinou      also
20:07 Calinou      who the fuck plays Minetest without maximizing the window
20:07 IhrFussel    Lol that would be fullscreen...I meant the sides of the screen
20:07 Shara        Anything at all is fine by me if neither dimension is reduced
20:07 IhrFussel    One sec I'll show you what I mean
20:09 Shara        I think this was mainly a case of "don't fix what isn't broken" in all honesty
20:09 Shara        800x600 was fine. People could resize if they wanted larger
20:10 paramat      Fixer so 800x600 does not have this effect? you're unclear
20:10 Shara        paramat: See my comments above. 800x600 did not have this issue
20:10 paramat      has the vertical size reduction caused a UI issue?
20:10 Shara        It has
20:11 paramat      ok will increase
20:11 Shara        The menu width is tied to window height
20:11 Fixer        paramat: same effect, I just expected bigger UI after increasing width...
20:12 Shara        paramat: to see it, open game window, leave width alone, and change height
20:12 Shara        then try just changing width
20:12 paramat      i'll return it to my 2nd version which was 1072x603
20:13 Shara        That would be fine
20:13 Shara        Menu will be basically the same size as in 800x600
20:13 paramat      i actually prefer >600 so now we have a reason to :]
20:14 Shara        :)
20:14 IhrFussel    http://storage7.static.itmages.com/i/17/0717/h_1500322426_4200818_35ac85ff6f.png (sorry for long link screenshot software doesn't offer another service)
20:15 Shara        Snug :)
20:16 Fixer        paramat: i did this comparison https://i.imgur.com/Z6U7j6K.png
20:17 Fixer        paramat: in short, 1024x60? increased MINETEST sign but decreased GUI size itself o_0
20:17 Shara        Hmmm
20:18 IhrFussel    The menu needs to be larger not the screen itself
20:18 Shara        Was logo enlarged at some point?
20:18 Shara        Or maybe logo is controlled by width? Menu by height??
20:18 Shara        Yes... logo is by width
20:19 IhrFussel    I can not even see the port field correctly, it wasn't like that before
20:19 Shara        Hah.. fullscreen for me causes the logo to get so big it overlaps the tabs,
20:19 Fixer        paramat: or this gif https://imgur.com/a/OgoIH
20:20 Fixer        thats 800x600 vs new format
20:21 Shara        So menu design is really not very suitable for 16:9 in general
20:22 Shara        Resizing of logo should be controlled same way as resizing of menu
20:22 paramat      PR coming
20:23 Fixer        paramat: it is not really about window size itself, maybe UI scaling needs some rethinking or smth
20:24 paramat      https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/6147
20:24 Shara        It's a combination of two things
20:25 Shara        paramat: To prevent smaller UI, you also need to look at logo scaling
20:25 Fixer        still funny, minetest logo - bigger, main menu ui - smaller
20:25 Shara        because logo maps to width
20:25 IhrFussel    800x600 is pre 2000 ... IMO 1024x5XX or 1024x6XX is better
20:25 Shara        then menu gets the remaining space... so increase in width means overall menu still has less height than before
20:26 Fixer        IhrFussel: yeah, I had 1024*768 in like year 2000
20:26 paramat      ok test and comment in the PR, i'll change it to whatever is required to avoid smaller UI
20:26 Shara        paramat: change logo scaling
20:26 Shara        then with this PR it's fine
20:26 IhrFussel    paramat, is there no way to JUST increase the UI size?
20:27 paramat      yes the scaling maths may need rework
20:30 Shara        paramat: http://gingercat.tk/mt/MTlogo.png
20:30 Shara        Logo being able to do this is a bit silly?
20:31 paramat      ! what window size?
20:31 Shara        Bigger than most can manage, but it shows the issue well
20:32 Shara        The logo scales on window width and seems to have no upper limit
20:32 Shara        menu gets whatever height is left after
20:34 paramat      ok yes that's too big
20:35 Shara        But even on regular fullscreen, the logo is cutting into the tabs for me
20:35 paramat      yes it does that sometimes
20:36 Shara        Sometimes?
20:37 paramat      not for me on 1072x603
20:37 Shara        That's not full screen for most people
20:38 paramat      sorry, missed the word 'fullscreen'
20:38 Fixer        paramat: i do have same problem on 1280x1024, logo overpasses the UI border few pixels
20:39 Fixer        screenshot in few mins
20:40 Fixer        https://i.imgur.com/eIwrSDi.png
20:40 Fixer        1280x996 (does not include windows task bar)
20:40 Shara        Yes, similar to what I get
20:43 Shara        I just tested with 1920x1058 and had the same issue
20:45 paramat      logo issues can be another PR
20:45 paramat      logo overlapping is an old issue
21:21 Fixer        that is pretty creative pattern https://i.imgur.com/J93oPE2.png
21:21 Fixer        clever
21:23 Fixer        new word: nabighor
21:23 KaadmY       Nice! re:pattern
21:54 Wayward_One  hi, i'm trying to compile the latest git, but i keep getting a bunch of json errors: https://hastebin.com/fubosapuwe.vbs. i'm pretty sure i updated jsoncpp correctly. does anyone know what i might be missing?
22:05 Fixer        i think I've heared smth about json errors
22:05 Fixer        in here
22:05 Fixer        or on -dev
22:11 Wayward_One  good to know i may not be the only one then
22:38 Fixer        quite amazing https://i.imgur.com/4qCZeUG.png
22:46 Fixer        https://i.imgur.com/V1Neqtb.jpg
23:02 Shara        Were there any big changes to how alpha was handled for textures in 0.4.16?
23:09 Shara        Since switching to 0.4.16 on my server I've noticed nodes using alpha are paler, a couple now pale enough to be practically invisible, and noairblocks from the sea modpack is pretty much broken as well.
23:14 Fixer        Shara: check it out under newest minetest, just install those mods and inspect if issue still appears, I think there were some fixes/changes but I may be wrong
23:14 Shara        Newest for server or client?
23:18 Shara        Hmm, I guess client
23:18 Shara        Since connecting with old client the issue is gone
23:18 Shara        WHich means I cannot do anything to help the players
23:21 Shara        Old client: http://gingercat.tk/mt/MTnoair_old.png, stable client: http://gingercat.tk/mt/MTnoair.png :(
23:24 Fixer        Shara: client
23:24 Fixer        Shara: try newest client
23:24 Shara        Issue isn't about me.
23:24 Shara        I can't just get all players to update
23:25 Shara        And don't feel like fighting compiler for windows client again either
23:31 garywhite    What about client?
23:31 Shara        Anyway, thanks Fixer. At least I know the issue isn't on my side.
23:32 Shara        gary, read log
23:32 garywhite    ik, but I don't see the issue is what I'm saying
23:32 Shara        if you checked the screenshots and see no issue, I don't know how else to explain it
23:33 garywhite    Oh wait, lemme change my screen brightness, the bottom image is not very clear ATM