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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2022-07-17

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Time Nick Message
02:21 Baytuch joined #minetest-dev
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09:23 sfan5 merging #12505 in 10m
09:23 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/12505 -- More corrections to lua_api.txt by sfan5
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09:55 sfan5 I guess we'll declare feature freeze to start this evening?
09:56 HuguesRoss6 joined #minetest-dev
10:51 nrz_ nice to hear 🙂
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11:03 sfan5 we should really go through One approval PRs and decide whether we want them or not
11:03 sfan5 e.g. #12354
11:03 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/12354 -- Enable the gamebar on Android by rollerozxa
11:26 erle sfan5 in #12505, why was “-- Selected item in inventory. 0 for no item selected.” removed? is the information already included elsewhere?
11:26 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/12505 -- More corrections to lua_api.txt by sfan5
11:44 sfan5 there's a different section for that yes
11:48 cranezhou joined #minetest-dev
11:55 sfan5 now if someone reviewed the same PRs I did in the last hours we could merge about five at once ;)
12:19 Krock I updated the changelog an hour ago. not final but will save some time in two weeks
12:25 Krock > For the y- direction, it's rotated 180 degrees around the Z axis.
12:25 Krock #11934 why would that matter?
12:25 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11934 -- Briefly explain how facedir rotations work by aerkiaga
12:30 Krock Y- can also be achieved by 0b001110 (X+) or 0b010010 (X-) but with the difference of the side rotations
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13:06 sfan5 won't that mean the texture is flipped verticall?
13:07 sfan5 +y
13:07 sfan5 I admit I didn't double check it in-game
13:18 erle luatic sfan5. i erroneously assumed that using zstd was about space savings. it is not – it is about having fast decompression time that is largely independent of the compression level. additionally, while it never decisively beats zlib on file size with default settings, it compresses about 2 to 3 times faster for the same filesize (once your payload gets over a few megabytes it seems) and never decompresses slower than zlib.
13:28 erle unlike zlib though, better compression takes a *very* long time, the highest “normal” compression level of zstd (19) takes about 20 to 25 times as long as the default level, while only getting space savings on the order of 10 ± 3 %.
13:31 Krock sfan5: yes, one would be flipped. it depends on what you want. I figured that the easiest explanation might be that param2=0 equals to a Y+ surface that points into Y+ and is then rotation according to those rules
13:31 Krock s/rotation/rotated/
13:31 erle i correct myself: in any case where zstd compresses better (i was able to observe this from payloads of >4MB), zlib absolutely is able to take over 100 times as much for marginal compression gains.
13:32 Krock also didn't someone write a tool to manually specify param2 values? I think that would help
13:32 sfan5 in devtest maybe
13:32 erle Krock i believe you can change it in devtest
13:32 erle using the devtest thingy
13:32 erle there is a tool for it
13:32 erle could be that wuzzy made it (?)
13:33 erle anyway, regarding zstd i think the API documentation should clearly point out that you are not getting better compression, you are getting faster compression/decompression.
13:33 erle sfan5 i must concede that you were absolutely right about not fiddling with default values. it is very easy to make zstd take very long. this should also have an API warning IMO.
13:35 rubenwardy Merging #12541 #12354 #12392 #12460 in 10
13:35 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/12541 -- Deprecate loading a world with unresolved dependencies by rubenwardy
13:35 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/12354 -- Enable the gamebar on Android by rollerozxa
13:35 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/12392 -- Fix automatic rotate for attached entities by appgurueu
13:35 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/12460 -- Remove workaround for normals not matching winding order by x2048
13:38 Krock erle: didn't find any. do you remember the name by any chance?
13:39 sfan5 games/devtest/mods/testtools/init.lua
13:39 sfan5 6:minetest.register_tool("testtools:param2tool", {
13:41 Krock oh thank you
13:42 sfan5 semi-related: I can recommend everyone who is still using grep on the command line to try ripgrep, it's great
13:42 erle to illustrate the scale of the zstd issues: compressing 94kb of HTML i had laying around with zlib with highest compression setting (9) takes 0.01s on my machine. the default zstd compression level (3) compresses faster, but produces bigger output. the first zstd compression level that beats zlib (5) takes about the same time as zlib – 0.01s and uses about the same amount of memory.
13:45 erle but zstd level 19 takes about 27 times as long (0.27s) and uses 13 times the amount of memory. zstd level 21 takes over 100 times as long and uses over 125 times the amount of memory as the defaullt that just barely loses out against zlib.
13:47 erle sfan5, what feature about ripgrep do you like the most?
13:49 erle anyways, does anyone else think that maybe, just maybe the zstd APi addition is not worth it, *unless* people regularly compress data in excess of several megabytes. luatic what do you think?
13:50 erle (zstd authors obviously do not care about “small” payloads, excepd in the case of giving a dictionary for compression, which the proposed API addition is not going to do)
13:52 erle it also strongly suggests that zstd is basically *never* worth it for compression of bitmaps (i.e. maps, mapblocks) or item meta, as these payloads are simply almost always *way* too small to beat zlib at reasonable compression speeds.
13:52 MTDiscord <Jonathon> Imagine trying to block a feature for absolutely everyone else in the community because you don't like it.
13:52 erle basicalyl, if your data is measured in kilobytes, use zlib. if it is measured in megabytes, use zstd. unless you can use a dictionary, then zstd is better.
13:53 erle Jonathon, the problem is half-assing it. if the API gave the option to give a zstd dictionary, then it would be good for small payloads.
13:54 MTDiscord <Jonathon> No, as usual your trying to block features because they don't fit your view point
13:54 erle i said “add a warning”
13:55 erle because its obviously a huge footgun
13:55 rubenwardy way too much noise here
13:55 sfan5 I agree
13:55 erle rubenwardy, should i have posted this to the issue or the PR instead?
13:55 sfan5 please paste your dissertation on zstd in #minetest
14:02 erle i am done with spamming about the topic anyway. i assumed it was more like the webp thing (where no one benchmarked it and it turned out that you don't get meaningful gains over jpeg), but it seems it is more like minetest.encode_png() (where the API is half-assed, but obv most ppl think it is better than not doing it, as it is useful and can be improved later)
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14:29 kilbith joined #minetest-dev
14:29 kilbith x2048 sent me this: https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/979725367071883274/998234052429631498/Screenshot_from_2022-07-17_16-25-02.png?width=1117&amp;height=628
14:30 kilbith https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/979725367071883274/998226603106631804/Screenshot_from_2022-07-17_15-55-54.png?width=1117&amp;height=628
14:31 MTDiscord <Jonathon> I assume that's there work on top of the post processing pr
14:31 MTDiscord <Jonathon> *?
14:31 kilbith yep
14:31 rubenwardy volumetric lighting
14:32 kilbith https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/834178262133112893/998206422846287953/unknown.png?width=1117&amp;height=628
14:33 kilbith 5.7 will be extremely promising I tell you
14:35 ROllerozxa indeed
15:07 kilbith MT will take over MC in 10 years the same way that OpenTTD massively took over TTD
15:07 kilbith we are adding critical threatening weapons and MC is self-burying
15:17 erle well, TTD also was not a moving goal and people wanted to clone it
15:17 erle also, i think i am not alone saying that minetest is already better for some highly relevant purposes (but this is a boring topic and belongs to #minetest anyway)
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15:19 erle kilbith where can i get the branch with volumetric lighting? given the performance of shadows, i'd like to check out if there is any machine i own where it runs nicely.
15:19 kilbith https://github.com/x2048/minetest/tree/volumetric_light
15:20 kilbith a 10+ yo laptop will probably not run it tho
15:21 kilbith anyone is able to spend 250-500€ to spend on a new laptop anyway
15:21 kilbith -to spend
15:23 kilbith I mean sometimes we have to give up on supporting GL 2.1
16:03 MisterE[m] <kilbith> "5.7 will be extremely promising..." <- cant wait for 5.7 XD
16:04 MisterE[m] I wonder... will there be server-sent shaders, or will there be a large library of preloaded shaders that the server can choose from.
16:16 rubenwardy maybe in the future there will be server-sent shaders
16:16 rubenwardy but it'll be the same as shadows now - it's a cient side option that the server can override/disable/enable
16:23 MisterE[m] maybe there should be a simple format and accellerated PR review process for adding new shaders to the client, so that anyone who wants a new kind of shader for their specific game can get it merged fairly easily and quickly.
16:28 MisterE[m] I built the volumetric lighting branch, got the following error:
16:28 * MisterE[m] uploaded an image: (21KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/jVPCtMDmMnGzPEMxoMzinhwI/image.png >
16:34 MisterE[m] This post processing stuff wouldn't allow in-world colored volumetric lights and shadows would it?
16:38 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Colored lighting is something that needs to be implemented on the server side as well, so no
16:58 Noisytoot kilbith: Not everyone can spend 250-500€ on a new laptop and I don't know of any x86 laptops with fully free boot firmware that support anything newer than OpenGL 2.1.
16:59 MTDiscord <x2048> @GreenXenith You can place the color into node metadata, and the client can read it. For example.
17:00 rubenwardy A big audience for minetest is schools as well, who tend to have underpowered devices
17:00 rubenwardy features like these need to be progressive enhancements
17:00 kilbith everyone is able to work one week in the summer to pay a new laptop with the money range I mentionned
17:01 sfan5 I don't know what the point of this discussion is, shadows aren't mandatory
17:02 rubenwardy yeah, please cease this
17:02 sfan5 on that note we will definitely drop shader-less (OpenGL < 2.0) support sooner or later
17:02 rubenwardy yeah
17:02 rubenwardy there is a difference between underpowered and ancient
17:03 rubenwardy 2.0 is also 2004
17:03 MTDiscord <x2048> MisterE[m]: try to enable tonemapping in the settings, it might be caused by that.
17:04 ROllerozxa yeah that error log is caused when tonemapping is disabled, works when it's enabled
17:04 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> @x2048 that is far from a good way to implement colored light
17:05 sfan5 PSA: core dev meeting in 2 hours
17:07 MTDiscord <MisterE> It works now and is utterly amazing
17:07 sfan5 @x2048 since you're here: have you ever looked at the other vertex types in irrlicht? will we ever need anything other than S3DVertex?
17:22 MTDiscord <x2048> sfan5: We will need 2TCoords for normal/bump mapping, but I don't see much use for tangents, since are moving towardd per-pixel lighting.
17:23 MTDiscord <x2048> Or maybe even won't need 2TCoords if all normal maps are aligned with textures
17:23 sfan5 I see, thanks for that information
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19:02 rubenwardy meeting time
19:02 rubenwardy 1 sec
19:11 Krock the meeting plan is pretty much like: 1. change the IRC channel title, 2. done?
19:12 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> I'd like to mention #12549
19:12 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/12549 -- liquid flow leaves an air gap before reaching the end of another liquid flow
19:13 Krock bisect would be very helpful
19:13 Krock haven't seen liquid changes in quite a while
19:20 MTDiscord <Niklp> Will #7629 still be a 5.6 feature?
19:20 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/7629 -- Run Minetest update checker on startup by SmallJoker
19:21 sfan5 I suppose we could start there, since review 5.6.0 Milestone is also on the list
19:22 sfan5 opinions? rubenwardy, Krock
19:22 sfan5 also HuguesRoss6, @x2048, nrz_ if they're here
19:23 Krock I gave it a test yesterday and it works, so I guess if there's already the milestone, then we can consider to merge it if that's okay
19:24 rubenwardy it's been a while since I've tested or reviewed it, but I was ready to approve minus the Android error
19:24 Krock the Android error is now gone thanks to sfan5
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19:24 sfan5 I didn't test yet but also I'm mainly worrying about the looks of the dialogue
19:25 Krock yes, it pretty small. the main menu does suffer from the same problem though
19:25 sfan5 its also disabled on android now isnt it?
19:25 Krock > -DENABLE_UPDATE_CHECKER=0       \
19:25 Krock yes
19:27 Krock testing #12131 in the meantime
19:27 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/12131 -- Add `minetest.settings` to CSM API and allow CSMs to provide `settingtypes.txt` by AFCMS
19:31 sfan5 I guess we can merge 7629 then, I'll review/approve later
19:35 sfan5 next: #11465
19:35 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11465 -- New physics overrides by Wuzzy2
19:36 sfan5 nobody has re-tested recently and there were some bugs last time so -1 for forcing it into this release
19:37 Krock plus I really wonder why the physics overrides aren't moved into a separate struct
19:37 Krock for clean organization and serializing
19:37 Krock this makes the mess even worse
19:37 sfan5 if we're postponing this PR anyway this should be done first
19:38 sfan5 (by one of us, not wuzzy)
19:38 Krock yes, I'll add it to my TODOs
19:39 Krock then there's a few bugfixes needed
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19:39 Krock #12048
19:39 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/12048 -- Autoforward no longer allows sideways movement
19:40 sfan5 dunno if this is so important, neutral from my side
19:41 Krock neither it seems important to me. a bisect would be really helpful in this case too
19:41 rubenwardy I conagreed on phys override
19:41 rubenwardy I added that to the milestone as it's a regression, I'm not too bothered about it
19:42 rubenwardy it's something that can be fixed in feature freeze as well
19:42 sfan5 true
19:43 MTDiscord <luatic> if you're at physics already, what about #12353
19:43 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/12353 -- Fix acceleration by appgurueu
19:43 sfan5 no
19:43 Krock is the "regression" statement about the "phys override" or is there a bugfix I missed in that PR?
19:43 rubenwardy autoforward
19:44 Krock okay then it makes sense
19:44 Krock should be rather simple to fix
19:45 erle sfan5 the problem with autoforward and sidewards movement is that riding boats or horses is really hard without that feature
19:45 Krock as for #12536 - I assume this could be caused by the depth sorting PR
19:45 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/12536 -- Misplaced leaves with visual_scale > 1
19:45 sfan5 could be
19:45 erle holding down a button actually hurts if you do it for several minutes
19:46 sfan5 @luatic the acceleration fix need thinking about later, definitely not in this feature freeze
19:46 MTDiscord <luatic> aight
19:48 sfan5 the leaves thing I didn't check if that was already broken in 5.5
19:48 sfan5 but I think it shouldn't be too hard to fix so we should do it for 5.6 imo
19:48 erle GreenXenith Krock #12549 has been a problem since at least 5.4.x, possibly longer, it makes some user-built structures in games that rely on liquids touching not work in some orientations – most notably cobble generators.
19:48 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/12549 -- liquid flow leaves an air gap before reaching the end of another liquid flow
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19:49 Krock erle: if it's that old, it's not important enough to be a blocker for 5.6.0
19:49 Krock please bisect it for higher chances to have it fixed in ime
19:49 erle yeah it's not a new thing, just a curiosity
19:49 Krock s/ime/time/
19:50 x2048 Hi everyone, am I too late?
19:50 Krock early enough to replace my spot ^^
19:51 sfan5 you can have a quick read through the log if there's anything you might want to comment on
19:51 x2048 I can take a look at #12536
19:51 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/12536 -- Misplaced leaves with visual_scale > 1
19:52 sfan5 that'd be nice
19:53 Krock no hurries though, the freeze is 2 weeks unless that's changed
19:54 MTDiscord <x2048> July 31-ish, right?
19:54 erle regarding the autoforward, it is a big enough issue that some people (e.g. me) actually kept using 5.4.1 to play games where autoforwarding long distances is a thing (i.e. boats in every game with big oceans, walking on the nether roof in mcl, flying long distance on some servers)
19:55 Krock x2048: yes
19:57 rubenwardy The standard feature freeze length is 1 week, accordingto the dev wiki
19:57 rubenwardy well, *default/minimum. It's usually extended
19:57 erle Krock, i found bisection incredibly hard last time i tried due to the lack of submodules + tight irrlichtmt coupling and the buggy mess that is incremental builds (espcially when going backwards, you basically have to rebuild everything in a clean directory). do you have tips on how to do it?
19:58 Krock you don't need to clean. bisect and checkout a specific IrrlichtMt version
19:59 Krock granted, that version could be added to the Releases page of Minetest for convenience
20:01 sfan5 next ->
20:01 Krock one last input: perhaps it would make sense to update the translations soon
20:01 sfan5 yes I'll do that next week
20:02 Krock great
20:02 sfan5 do we want to have a look at this list? do we want to have a look at this
20:02 sfan5 uh
20:02 erle Krock, i definitely need to have a clean build environment when i go back in time. i remember sfan5 explained once why cmake/make can't handle this, but i forgot what it was. anyways, if i figure it out, i'll tell later.,
20:02 sfan5 this list https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pulls?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Apr+label%3A%22One+approval%22
20:02 rubenwardy update translations is usually done at the start of feature freeze, along with string freeze, to allow final updates
20:02 Krock as long it's not features, they can still be merged later on. as for the feature PRs I think it's okay as-is with the milestone
20:02 rubenwardy and then again at the end
20:02 rubenwardy yeah that makes sense
20:03 sfan5 yes I'm not suggesting adding any to the milestone
20:03 sfan5 I guess we don't have anything to discuss about them then
20:03 rubenwardy https://dev.minetest.net/Releasing_Minetest
20:03 Krock the milestone takes care of that topic, and we had long time enough to add PRs to it
20:04 MTDiscord <Jonathon> it would be nice if https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/11939 is considered, since that is something on the client, rather than delaying it another release
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20:04 Krock gtg, sorry. enjoy your evening.
20:05 MisterE[m] yes, that would be nice
20:05 Topic for #minetest-dev is now Minetest core development and maintenance. FEATURE FREEZE ACTIVE. Chit-chat goes to #minetest. https://dev.minetest.net/ https://github.com/minetest
20:06 sfan5 I'll also tag a new IrrlichtMt release next week
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20:08 MisterE[m] oh, something to consider: adding a new movement physics group: frictionless. That would allow you to have blocks that act like arcade-game ice. When on the block, you can move and not slow down, whatever direction you start moving in, you immediately reach full speed in that direction. You keep moving in that direction until you either reach the end of the node(s) or you move in another direction.
20:08 MisterE[m] actually, that should be in a feature request, not here
20:09 MTDiscord <x2048> I'd like to add #12552 to 5.6.0.
20:09 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/12552 -- Interlaced stereo mode is broken
20:09 rubenwardy you started the freeze but there's still 2 PRs on the list. I guess it's semi-started (:
20:09 rubenwardy *feature PRs
20:09 sfan5 they are excluded obv
20:09 sfan5 x2048: sure
21:31 Zughy[m] exactly what features is MT 5.6 gonna have?
21:35 rubenwardy https://github.com/minetest/blog/issues/23
21:37 rubenwardy https://dev.minetest.net/Changelog#5.5.0_.E2.86.92_5.6.0
21:37 erle rubenwardy, 9-slice images are new? i thought i had seen some already somewhere
21:37 rubenwardy new for images, not for backgrounds and buttons
21:45 erle regarding position/speed sanitization … if a player is adjacent to the boundary, what's preventing them of firing an arrow right beyond the boundary or goading the game into doing whatever else past that position in some other way?
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22:26 MTDiscord <savilli> does anyone want to second approve #11885?
22:26 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11885 -- Add unittests for item movement code by savilli
22:26 MTDiscord <savilli> I don't want to rebase it again
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