| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 00:51 |
MTDiscord |
<FatalError> wait, so with this feature would you be able to offset the player's camera relative the the player's look? |
| 00:52 |
MTDiscord |
<FatalError> i.e. if I want it 1 block behind the look, without input delay? |
| 01:55 |
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| 05:22 |
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| 05:51 |
MTDiscord |
<FatalError> I was thinking about making a PR for the issue I just made (#12533) |
| 05:51 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/12533 -- un-depreciate scher multiplication in vector.multiply() and add to vector metatables |
| 05:52 |
MTDiscord |
<FatalError> would be the first contribution I make, I'm not sure how I would do it? |
| 05:52 |
MTDiscord |
<FatalError> kinda new to github |
| 05:59 |
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| 06:21 |
erle |
FatalError, which fun-hater deprecated it and what was their rationale? |
| 06:21 |
MTDiscord |
<FatalError> I have literally no idea, it's absolutely absurd though |
| 06:22 |
MTDiscord |
<FatalError> no reason to make things harder for us |
| 06:23 |
erle |
do a git blame or git log i guess? |
| 06:23 |
MTDiscord |
<FatalError> #10329 |
| 06:23 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/10329 -- Mark multiply and divide with two vectors as deprecated (Schur product and quotient) by Desour |
| 06:23 |
MTDiscord |
<FatalError> they didn't seem to have a reason? |
| 06:23 |
MTDiscord |
<FatalError> they said "oh who needs it" |
| 06:23 |
MTDiscord |
<FatalError> meanwhile i'm over here using it right fucking now |
| 06:23 |
MTDiscord |
<FatalError> no surprise fucking paramat agreed |
| 06:23 |
erle |
oh, that kind of developer is the worst |
| 06:24 |
erle |
i mean that kind of developer *mindset* |
| 06:24 |
erle |
not the person, obv |
| 06:24 |
erle |
sorry, sleepy |
| 06:24 |
erle |
anyways, you missspelled “schur multiplication” in your issue |
| 06:25 |
MTDiscord |
<FatalError> I will fix this, but yeah I agree |
| 06:25 |
MTDiscord |
<FatalError> you should never remove something because you don't think everybody will use it |
| 06:26 |
MTDiscord |
<FatalError> especially when the work is already done |
| 06:26 |
erle |
FatalError, you should link to https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/10329 in the issue |
| 06:27 |
erle |
it proves that the context is the classic development three-act play of some dev saying “this seems useless”, then people show up and say “well i use this” and then in act three, they are dismissed and it is removed anyway. |
| 06:27 |
erle |
or deprecated in this case |
| 06:28 |
erle |
FatalError, make a PR for it to force the issue i say |
| 06:29 |
erle |
given that is clearly a case of “people having no clue about something want to remove it vs people having a clue want to keep it” i think your case is pretty clear and hope it goes well. it is only a documentation change, right? |
| 06:30 |
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| 06:31 |
MTDiscord1 |
<FatalError> documentation, yes- but I believe it'll also stop the depreciation message in console, I also mentioned the metatable thing where it's implemented into the metatable multiplication as it was not added because of depreciation |
| 06:32 |
MTDiscord1 |
<FatalError> which should be hard at all |
| 06:32 |
MTDiscord1 |
<FatalError> I don't really have experience with github, so figure out how to make a PR will be... interesting |
| 06:32 |
MTDiscord1 |
<FatalError> I'll probably do it sometime this week lol |
| 06:33 |
erle |
i can explain: github is like a drive-by shooting for developers |
| 06:33 |
erle |
first you click the fork button on the repository |
| 06:33 |
erle |
you make a branch in your own repository. do not do this on master. |
| 06:33 |
erle |
then you drive by the main project and shoot the patch into the general direction of the project. |
| 06:34 |
erle |
there is a PR creation button where you can select your own branch as the one you want to merge |
| 06:35 |
erle |
after you have done this, the hardest part by far is convincing people to take it seriously. |
| 06:35 |
MTDiscord |
<FatalError> alright |
| 06:36 |
erle |
you can also make the change locally and use git format-patch, but let's say most github users do not appreciate it and they will want you to use the web interface |
| 06:36 |
MTDiscord |
<FatalError> really? |
| 06:36 |
MTDiscord |
<FatalError> that's surprising |
| 06:36 |
MTDiscord |
<FatalError> I'd expect more people to be more for the annoying console commands I dont know xD |
| 06:47 |
erle |
the console stuff is way easier to handle for an individual developer |
| 06:47 |
erle |
but you get no discussion in the web interface that way |
| 06:47 |
erle |
hence it can not be approved for minetest |
| 06:48 |
erle |
given that this is not just a typo fix, i guess it should be discussed and preserved for posterity |
| 07:47 |
sfan5 |
"many applications for this type of arithmetic, especially in scaling of vectors" it's cool that you know them, please list them in the issue |
| 07:52 |
MTDiscord |
<FatalError> I mean, im on phone now |
| 07:52 |
MTDiscord |
<FatalError> Bc mt internet died, but |
| 07:52 |
MTDiscord |
<FatalError> My* |
| 07:53 |
MTDiscord |
<FatalError> Mostly just for scaling purposes, i dont know many use cases outside of that to be fair, probably shouldnt have said that... |
| 07:53 |
MTDiscord |
<FatalError> I dont mean to lie, i just have a peanut brain |
| 07:54 |
MTDiscord |
<FatalError> Im sure i can think of some use cases |
| 08:03 |
erle |
nah you should not make stuff up |
| 08:03 |
erle |
demonstrate the scaling thing with some code or just show where you use it |
| 08:03 |
erle |
so people understand why this is needed |
| 08:45 |
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| 08:57 |
rubenwardy |
there's no canonical way to multiple two vectors - there's also dot and cross products |
| 08:57 |
rubenwardy |
so makes more sense to have a named method |
| 09:20 |
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| 09:22 |
MTDiscord |
<FatalError> Then make a named method? Dont just drop the feature |
| 09:22 |
MTDiscord |
<FatalError> I mean, what else would you expect when tou multiplt two vectors though |
| 09:23 |
MTDiscord |
<FatalError> Its fairly straightforward |
| 09:24 |
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| 09:24 |
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| 09:35 |
sfan5 |
if it were to be renamed it would also be deprecated first |
| 09:39 |
sfan5 |
merging #11545 in 15m |
| 09:39 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11545 -- Animated particlespawners by velartrill |
| 09:49 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> I support un-deprecating the schur product, it can be useful |
| 09:49 |
MTDiscord |
<FatalError> Yes, this is why I'm against it. Personally Im more interested in the metatables part though |
| 09:49 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> perhaps adding an explicit vector.schur_product here is the cleanest solution |
| 09:50 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> v * w should probably be the dot product (vector.dot) rather than the schur product if both v, w are vectors |
| 09:51 |
MTDiscord |
<FatalError> *looking up what dot product is |
| 09:53 |
MTDiscord |
<FatalError> Im going to sleep first lol |
| 09:53 |
MTDiscord |
<FatalError> Idk algebra well, or vectors. Maybe you're right, but I reel like schur makes the most sense |
| 09:54 |
MTDiscord |
<FatalError> Thats with my limited knowledge though |
| 09:54 |
erle |
luatic why |
| 09:56 |
erle |
luatic is it because of matlab or why |
| 09:56 |
erle |
the dot product should obviously be written as v • w |
| 09:58 |
erle |
similar, v × w for cross product |
| 09:58 |
erle |
or just spell it out to not keep people guessing |
| 09:58 |
sfan5 |
you're aware that Lua does not have an • or × operator, right? |
| 09:59 |
erle |
i guess i am now |
| 10:00 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> erle: for practical purposes, you can consider * = • in 99% of languages which use ASCII for their operators |
| 10:00 |
erle |
look, just force people to spell it out |
| 10:00 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> the dot product? |
| 10:00 |
sfan5 |
any product I assume |
| 10:00 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> at that point we might as well make them spell out scalar multiplication |
| 10:01 |
erle |
yes any one |
| 10:01 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> but then equations become gross |
| 10:01 |
erle |
uh |
| 10:01 |
erle |
scalar multiplication is obvious |
| 10:01 |
sfan5 |
the metatable doesn't do scalar multiplication btw |
| 10:01 |
erle |
there is no ambiguity there |
| 10:01 |
erle |
or am i missing something? |
| 10:01 |
sfan5 |
you can bet there is an alternative definition on how to multiply a vector and scalar somewhere |
| 10:02 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> sfan5: the metatable does multiplication by a scalar? |
| 10:02 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> > Scalar multiplication is the multiplication of a vector by a scalar (where the product is a vector), and is to be distinguished from inner product of two vectors (where the product is a scalar). |
| 10:02 |
erle |
well weare talking about euclidean space here |
| 10:02 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Unfortunately in German the dot product is called "Skalarprodukt" |
| 10:02 |
erle |
hahahaha |
| 10:03 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> hella confusing |
| 10:03 |
erle |
in euclidean space you change the length of the arrow, but not its direction, when you mash a vector and some number together |
| 10:03 |
erle |
and i hope minetest is keeping to that |
| 10:03 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> To make matters worse: The Vektorprodukt is the cross product |
| 10:03 |
erle |
positive number |
| 10:04 |
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| 10:04 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> granted, there's some sense behind it, but if you're familiar with the english terminology it sucks |
| 10:04 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> erle: of course, that's what happens when you multiply all components by a number |
| 10:04 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> which is literally what Minetest does |
| 10:04 |
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| 10:05 |
erle |
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scalar_multiplication |
| 10:05 |
erle |
> Not to be confused with scalar product. |
| 10:05 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> :> |
| 10:06 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> dot product |
| 10:06 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> I know no scalar product |
| 10:06 |
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| 10:06 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> that name is dead to me |
| 10:06 |
erle |
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scalar_multiplication |
| 10:06 |
erle |
> Not to be confused with scalar product. |
| 10:06 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> stop deadnaming the dot product |
| 10:06 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> also who implemented vector.angle |
| 10:06 |
erle |
why |
| 10:07 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> It calculates one atan2, one dot product, one cross product, and one length. The standard way is one acos, one dot product, and one scalar multiplication with the inverse of the product of the two lenghts |
| 10:07 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> lengths* |
| 10:07 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> nah, no scalar multiplication, normal multiplication |
| 10:08 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> basically dot(v, w) = acos(|vw|/|a|/|b|) |
| 10:09 |
MTDiscord |
<paradust> that's going to wrap around if the angle > 90 deg |
| 10:09 |
erle |
can you elaborate why the current way was chosen paradust? |
| 10:10 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> paradust: just remove the abs around |vw| and it won't wrap around |
| 10:11 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> also don't you mean > 180 deg? |
| 10:14 |
MTDiscord |
<paradust> actually never mind, i was thinking of another situation |
| 10:14 |
erle |
luatic regardless, if you refactor that you should have test cases before you start doing it |
| 10:15 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> erle: I don't want to refucktor it :) |
| 10:15 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> I'd rather refucktor my own vec lib |
| 10:15 |
erle |
i hope you have tests |
| 10:16 |
sfan5 |
@luatic last I read the docs it said you can't do vector * number and have to use vector.multiply() for that |
| 10:16 |
sfan5 |
that's what I mean |
| 10:17 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> sfan5: The metatable allows it tho: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/20bd6bdb685af11548c35d3a48e5aa33f4222397/builtin/common/vector.lua#L218-L232 |
| 10:17 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Also the docs: v * s or s * v: Returns v scaled by s. |
| 10:18 |
sfan5 |
idk what I remembered then |
| 11:00 |
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| 15:30 |
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| 15:39 |
kilbith |
I'd like #10100 before release |
| 15:39 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/10100 -- Additional texture modifiers by Treer |
| 15:40 |
kilbith |
it'd be a shame to ask the author for a 3rd rebase |
| 15:53 |
kilbith |
also new warnings: http://codepad.org/X6swRK2d |
| 16:36 |
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| 20:30 |
MTDiscord |
<x2048> kilbith: these should be fixed by this patch: https://gist.github.com/x2048/1beac4faa4c8482362dd7d4ada7048b4... pushing in a few minutes. |
| 20:31 |
sfan5 |
better turn it into a FATAL_ERROR if it indeed can never happen |
| 20:34 |
MTDiscord |
<x2048> Updated the gist ^. Looks good? |
| 20:34 |
sfan5 |
sure |
| 20:35 |
sfan5 |
unless it could happen if the server is newer than the client |
| 20:35 |
sfan5 |
should be silently ignored then |
| 20:41 |
MTDiscord |
<x2048> yeap, i makes perfect sense. updated the gist again... |
| 20:46 |
MTDiscord |
<x2048> alpha blend mode will be the fallback in case an unknown mode is hit. another option would be to add feature flags with each new set of supported blend modes. |
| 20:46 |
MTDiscord |
<x2048> (which we can do anyway) |
| 20:47 |
MTDiscord |
<x2048> pushing now |
| 20:48 |
MTDiscord |
<x2048> done |
| 21:46 |
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| 21:52 |
Sokomine |
is there a way to narrow down what causes the high cpu usage in certain areas of server maps? |
| 21:53 |
Sokomine |
i was a bit surprised when i used intel_gpu_top and saw that in times of total client freeze the gpu was idle |
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