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| 01:54 |
fluxionary |
there's still no way to override sounds from the client side, right? vs. texturepacks |
| 01:54 |
fluxionary |
or maybe that's a question for general not dev, sorry |
| 02:13 |
erlehmann |
fluxionary i believe there is not unless you use a cheat client. |
| 02:13 |
erlehmann |
fluxionary is there a ticket open on this? |
| 02:13 |
fluxionary |
there's an 8 year old post on the forum |
| 02:13 |
fluxionary |
and when i looked into it maybe 2 years ago, there was no solution. |
| 02:14 |
erlehmann |
look for a github issue. if you do not find one, open one. if you find one and have new information or a patch, add it please. |
| 02:14 |
fluxionary |
will do |
| 02:14 |
fluxionary |
the issue, probably won't make a patch |
| 02:15 |
fluxionary |
someone else was asking, but didn't grok irc |
| 02:15 |
fluxionary |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4093 |
| 02:17 |
erlehmann |
> If minetest were to support an archive format, say .pk3 or .pk7, or both, then the problem would be easily solved. Inside would be a directory hierarchy with whatever resources the pack provides/overrides. |
| 02:17 |
erlehmann |
i believe archive format suppport was removed. not sure though. |
| 02:19 |
fluxionary |
though this also seems to imply that you can override sounds? but i don't remember being able to do that from the client side... |
| 03:04 |
rubenwardy |
fluxionary: you can put sounds in the sounds folder next to mods |
| 03:04 |
rubenwardy |
This isn't like texture packs, there's no child folder and you can't switch between them |
| 03:04 |
fluxionary |
it looks like my earlier attempts to do that didn't work, because i put them in a sub-folder as if they were in a pack |
| 03:04 |
fluxionary |
and this works for overriding sounds when you're a client connecting to a remote server? |
| 03:05 |
rubenwardy |
Should do |
| 03:05 |
rubenwardy |
But it probably hasn't been tested in a while |
| 03:05 |
fluxionary |
i'm ashamed i couldn't figure that out before, i'll test it sometime in the next day or something |
| 03:29 |
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| 04:50 |
erlehmann |
fluxionary rubenwardy sorry for the misinfo then |
| 04:50 |
fluxionary |
erlehmann, you were telling me what i thought i already knew, don't worry :) |
| 04:51 |
fluxionary |
i still haven't tested it tho |
| 04:52 |
fluxionary |
i'm starting to think that the reason it failed for me before was that i was using *empty* files to override the sounds, and so, they were invalid. |
| 04:53 |
fluxionary |
i have no idea what me-from-the-past was thinking |
| 05:00 |
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| 06:19 |
erlehmann |
Krock could you please explain to me why you approved this even though it *clearly* breaks things? https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/11902 |
| 06:19 |
erlehmann |
i do not understand the rationale behind creating work for everyone |
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| 14:30 |
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| 14:35 |
kilbith |
lol @ moon texture rotation PR and that elhermann usual whining |
| 14:35 |
kilbith |
there are engines out there that do not care about backward compat for broken behaviors |
| 14:35 |
kilbith |
see love2d |
| 14:36 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> kilbith: We use SemVer. 5.5 is a feature- and bugfix-only release. This is breaking compat. Has to wait until 6.0. |
| 14:37 |
kilbith |
this isn't serious |
| 14:37 |
kilbith |
between that and taking away dynamic shadows from users... |
| 14:37 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Moon rotation not being the same as sun rotation on rise is not a "bug". |
| 14:37 |
kilbith |
that elhermann shit is better be muted |
| 14:37 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> kilbith: dynamic shadows introduced too much game-breaking bugs |
| 14:37 |
kilbith |
my ass |
| 14:38 |
kilbith |
talk about nodecore not games in general |
| 14:38 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> your ass doesn't care about backwards compat, much like Zughy, and that's the issue at hand |
| 14:38 |
kilbith |
you did see how it works in the other FOSS engines right? |
| 14:38 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> I don't care. |
| 14:38 |
kilbith |
they do not care much as we do and /that is fine/ |
| 14:39 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Make a proposal for 6.0 to be developed in parallel to 5.x if you want breaking features faster. |
| 14:39 |
kilbith |
there is something called git to make it adapting easy |
| 14:40 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> NodeCore doesn't really care about dynamic shadows. It's just a user-togglable performance regression as far as NodeCore is concerned. |
| 14:40 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> (users are advised to disable performance regressions, but then, when have users ever listened to advice) |
| 14:42 |
erlehmann |
kilbith I have simply done a search for every moon-related mod I could find on contentdb and on my computer and pointed out that the underlying assumption of the moon rotation PR, i.e. that no one relies on that, was false in literally every case. |
| 14:43 |
kilbith |
oh i forgot to /hide you |
| 14:43 |
erlehmann |
kilbith which also means that this PR is hot garbage, to spell it out. if *every* user of an API relies on current behaviour, pulling the rug out under them is not a smart move. |
| 14:44 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> I think the premise of the whole "bug report" is false to begin with. It is not "obviously" the "right and reasonable" way that the rising moon should be orientated the same as the rising sun. It is perfectly reasonable to expect the setting moon to be orientated like the setting sun; it's just a matter of definition. |
| 14:44 |
erlehmann |
actually, i did expect the opposite of what zughy expected |
| 14:45 |
erlehmann |
because zughy expected those things to have the same orientation at different times for some reason |
| 14:45 |
erlehmann |
whereas i expect them to have the same orientation at the same time |
| 14:45 |
erlehmann |
like the textures point into the same direction |
| 14:45 |
kilbith |
germans are so boring that don't know how to make actual /fun/ games (quote me a famous german-made game?) |
| 14:45 |
erlehmann |
so of course the moon rises upside down, bc the sun points down |
| 14:45 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Is there any reason why the orientation of any of the sky objects is anything other than arbitrary anyway? Just pick an orientation and use it. |
| 14:45 |
kilbith |
they are all about engineering and carrying backward dusty stuff like irrlicht to death |
| 14:46 |
celeron55 |
yes, currently when you see the sun and the moon at the same time, the texture is oriented the same way (on the opposite sides from you) |
| 14:46 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> ad hominem much? |
| 14:46 |
kilbith |
I believe it's a cultural thing problem at core |
| 14:46 |
erlehmann |
celeron55 yeah, it makes sense from a skybox perspective. you map them on a box and rotate it. |
| 14:46 |
celeron55 |
which does make sense |
| 14:46 |
erlehmann |
if “listing every mod that is negatively affected by a change” is whining, i am going to do that in the future too. |
| 14:47 |
erlehmann |
i believe it is a very simple and effective way to argue about changes |
| 14:47 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> The problem is that many mod authors don't watch the engine closely and just expect compatibility to not be broken. |
| 14:47 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Which is the (ab)used as an argument as for why "it doesn't matter". |
| 14:48 |
erlehmann |
luatic, i believe you are mistaken. good platforms or engines do not change all the time. web sites do not have to change all the time because a new firefox was released. |
| 14:48 |
erlehmann |
i do not have to rewrite my python because of a jump from 3.7 to 3.9 |
| 14:49 |
celeron55 |
just mark the PR for 6.0 and be done with it. why is it such a big deal to follow semver? |
| 14:49 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> I agree with that, I'm just saying that Zughy's argument - pretty much "I have seen no comments from mod authors here" (paraphrased) is invalid IMO. |
| 14:49 |
erlehmann |
IMO in the case of minetest it is the engine's responsibility to not break games, not the game's responsibility to follow the engine everywhere |
| 14:49 |
kilbith |
from what I see elhermann is causing a lot of arguing over too much issues already. |
| 14:49 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> celeron55: yep, agreed |
| 14:49 |
kilbith |
this isn't good to progress as a project |
| 14:49 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> kilbith: the entire moon orientation issue shouldn't have been started in the first place |
| 14:50 |
erlehmann |
luatic ah yeah, that happens from time to time. which is why i try to point out where stuff breaks. |
| 14:50 |
erlehmann |
i believe you have to understand something before you decide if you want to tear it down. especially if you tear it down. |
| 14:50 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> But whether the moon should be rotated 180° in the end is purely a matter of definition, not worth a bug report. It's much like saying "BUG! xyz function uses radians instead of degrees". |
| 14:50 |
erlehmann |
yeah lol |
| 14:51 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Or like defining 0^0 to be 0 vs 1. |
| 14:51 |
erlehmann |
bug! lua gives me inf when i do 1/0 and not a segmentation fault |
| 14:51 |
erlehmann |
funnily enough, the inf behaviour is very useful when setting the fire fps setting of mineclonia to 0 |
| 14:51 |
erlehmann |
the time to the next frame of the animation is infinity |
| 14:52 |
erlehmann |
which is exactly what is desired |
| 14:52 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> If that PR got merged and somebody pointed out that the moon orientation had suddenly arbitrarily changed then I would have to say "oh, yeah, it looks like there's a regression" and then find the merge commit and scratch my head over why a regression was arbitrarily introduced. |
| 14:53 |
kilbith |
forum post and the problem is solved |
| 14:53 |
rubenwardy |
luatic: This isn't documented in the API, so technically we could change it before 6.0 |
| 14:53 |
erlehmann |
btw, just to say it out loud: i hate pointless API changes because it is more beautiful that way in the eyes of someone. |
| 14:54 |
rubenwardy |
"technically" because it's a grey area and still best not to break things |
| 14:54 |
erlehmann |
rubenwardy i consider “this is not documented, so we could totally change it, even though everyone who relies on it wants it to stay that way” a rhetorical trick. of course people look at the engine behaviour and even read source code to figure out what happens. |
| 14:54 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> You can get a FPE in MT by setting "frames" to 0 in a [verticalframes texmod ;) |
| 14:55 |
erlehmann |
you know, it is not documented that minetest does *not* delete all your files if you name your pladyer charakter “deleteeverything” |
| 14:55 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> erlehmann: "technically" that might be considered a feature ;) |
| 14:56 |
erlehmann |
luatic i have already played with the idea of just using unfixed crashes to get rid of griefers |
| 14:56 |
erlehmann |
but cora (the admin on oysterity) is too nice for this approach |
| 14:57 |
erlehmann |
last night i wanted to place a duped echest and got the notice PLACING DUPED NODES IS FORBIDDEN ;) |
| 15:01 |
erlehmann |
does anyone have an idea why zughy is back again? |
| 15:01 |
erlehmann |
i read the “i'm leaving” forum post |
| 15:02 |
erlehmann |
is this like deleting your tumblr? |
| 15:02 |
rubenwardy |
minetest is addicting, probably. That's why I'm her |
| 15:02 |
kilbith |
the fucking primadonna is back |
| 15:02 |
rubenwardy |
who, you? |
| 15:03 |
rubenwardy |
? |
| 15:04 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> ^ |
| 15:08 |
erlehmann |
kllbith i must apologize. i thought you were an evil person that was partly responsible for making poor zughy quit, but now I have seen that zughy reacts to people having different opinions with saying that everyone is an idiot – something that well behaved people like you or me would never do. |
| 15:09 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> kilbith would never call people with different opinions idiots, no no |
| 15:09 |
erlehmann |
^^ |
| 15:09 |
rubenwardy |
lmao |
| 15:10 |
erlehmann |
i'm waiting for the “oh, sarcasm, THAT'S CREATIVE” comment ;) |
| 15:11 |
kilbith |
Zugyy literally quit because I called sfan5 a asshole and that I wasn't moderated for that |
| 15:13 |
rubenwardy |
from what I can see he never called anyone an idiot, just the topic "stupid bikeshedding" |
| 15:13 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> why would you call sfan5 an asshole? |
| 15:13 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> yeah, Zughy is rather polite |
| 15:13 |
kilbith |
it doesn't matter |
| 15:13 |
rubenwardy |
and don't give yourself too much credit, there were multiple reasons |
| 15:13 |
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| 15:14 |
rubenwardy |
personal attacks are unproductive and toxic, please just leave it out |
| 15:15 |
kilbith |
personal attacks are just part of life |
| 15:16 |
kilbith |
human are emotional and FOSS contributors are no exception to that |
| 15:17 |
rubenwardy |
murder and violence are a part of life, but are criminalised in society. Being a part of life doesn't mean we have to tolerate it |
| 15:18 |
celeron55 |
the only reason kilbith isn't a core dev is that he isn't nice |
| 15:18 |
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| 15:18 |
celeron55 |
that's a tradeoff you make i guess |
| 15:18 |
freshreplicant[m |
Honest question, do you guys think the ratio of arguing, insults, drama and endless discussions vs progress is worse for Minetest than other projects of its kind? I know that's already a controversial statement, because the word 'progress' could trigger a civil war about what exactly 'progress' is or that it is somehow inherently evil, but still, hope you get the jist of my question. |
| 15:18 |
erlehmann |
kilbith get your shit together, not everyone has a thicc skin. some people can not stand your casual insulting style and it pisses them off. it costs you literally nothing to insult some like-minded people on 4chan or twitter wherever people go to throw insults at strangers. |
| 15:19 |
erlehmann |
freshreplicant[m from my POV minetest is pretty civilized |
| 15:19 |
kilbith |
lucky you that you didn't live in the hmmmm/PilzAdam era man |
| 15:19 |
kilbith |
you would be whining all the day in the you mom dress |
| 15:19 |
kilbith |
* your |
| 15:20 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> pretty sure erlehmann was alive back then |
| 15:22 |
erlehmann |
i am not sure what this insult is supposed to say. would i wear her dress? or run to her and cry? |
| 15:22 |
erlehmann |
is it some french idiom |
| 15:23 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> I think kilbith just forced a "your mom" joke, but I'm not sure. |
| 15:23 |
celeron55 |
freshreplicant[m: frankly i don't know, i haven't had that much time to follow other similar projects, but what i know is it hasn't been getting worse in a long time |
| 15:23 |
erlehmann |
freshreplicant[m minetest seems pretty slow for a project, but the main problem is not discussion IMO. so far all the long discussions i have seen may have been annoying to ppl involved (including me) but made minetest better in the end. |
| 15:27 |
erlehmann |
“the only reason kilbith isn't a core dev is that he isn't nice” – if only it was *possible* to be nicer to people! |
| 15:28 |
_Zaizen_[m] |
<celeron55> "freshreplicant: frankly i don'..." <- I follow discussions on godot, veloren and libresprite projects and they are much friendlier than minetest. Someone new when they see how this community behaves, expecially some users will just say "fuck that" and contribute to something else. |
| 15:29 |
celeron55 |
kilbith was banned for... a year or something, and i didn't really see a flow of nicer people to replace him |
| 15:29 |
celeron55 |
so it's not an easy thing to solve |
| 15:29 |
rubenwardy |
we don't need people to replace toxic people. Toxic people leaving is the feature |
| 15:29 |
kilbith |
lel |
| 15:30 |
kilbith |
I'm already making $4000/month to work on forks, no interest to become a core-dev |
| 15:30 |
celeron55 |
i mean, you don't really need more than just a vote and i'll ban kilbith once more |
| 15:31 |
erlehmann |
i agree with rubenwardy. the beatings should continue until morale improves. |
| 15:32 |
rubenwardy |
in that PR, vast majority of the conversation is civil imo |
| 15:32 |
erlehmann |
kilbith out of personal interest, are you as vile to your customers/employers as well? like, is it accepted in your culture? |
| 15:32 |
freshreplicant[m |
I can only speak as a player and relatively useless 'community member', not a developer, but I dunno. I think the balance is pretty off. |
| 15:32 |
rubenwardy |
there's the random toxic brigading from Anulo2 which just isn't helpful |
| 15:32 |
erlehmann |
yeah but that's a github thing |
| 15:33 |
erlehmann |
î have noticed this over time |
| 15:33 |
kilbith |
I have been fired by an employer once for saying to go fuck himself, and it re-hired me months after that |
| 15:33 |
kilbith |
* he |
| 15:33 |
erlehmann |
on platforms like github/gitlab brigading is easier and socially accepted, sadly |
| 15:33 |
rubenwardy |
the problem I see is certain behaviour on IRC today |
| 15:33 |
celeron55 |
github - the twitter of source control |
| 15:34 |
erlehmann |
celeron55, i believe they added the emoji thumbs up/thumbs down buttons so that ppl do not spam “+1” or “i agree” so often |
| 15:35 |
_Zaizen_[m] |
rubenwardy: In the moon pr by zughy? Yeah maybe I could have said it better but overall I think that discussion rapresents really well the minetest community when you try to change something. It's not a comment about the pr itself but more about the general behaviours. It's more like a reference that I want people to see before contributing to minetest. |
| 15:35 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Reactions are useful to gauge popular opinion |
| 15:36 |
erlehmann |
kilbith, thanks, that is a funny and enlightening story indeed. funny because you got fired. enlightening because you got fired and do not seem to care much. |
| 15:36 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Zaizen: I'm pretty sure you haven't fully understand the discussion then. |
| 15:36 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> understood* |
| 15:37 |
_Zaizen_[m] |
MTDiscord: Maybe. Please explain, english is not my main language and I could have misinterpreted some things |
| 15:37 |
erlehmann |
_Zaizen_[m] i have made and seen a fair share of ill-fated proposals and i must say, this is totally untypical. normally, a breaking change has an upside beyond “this satisfies the submitters sense of aesthetics more”. |
| 15:37 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Read erlehmann's comment if you want a simple explanation why Zughy's change is not considered an improvement: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11901#issuecomment-1007479116 |
| 15:40 |
freshreplicant[m |
Following other open source game projects, I often find stuff in devlogs that I'm excited about, that make me jump into the game again. Minetest though, for all it's existing great features and endless promise, I often find those very features get axed or the people submitting the PRs get so discouraged these changes just stagnate or get nowhere. I know the reign of the 'game' is over here and now it's all about the engine and games |
| 15:40 |
freshreplicant[m |
(plural), but still. |
| 15:41 |
rubenwardy |
game engines aren't as exciting |
| 15:43 |
freshreplicant[m |
Players don't usually really care about or know anything about the underlying game engines. It's ok if the target audience of Minetest were explicitly mainly tinkerers and devs, but not sure that's intended or good for project in the long run. |
| 15:44 |
rubenwardy |
Minetest has two audiences, players and devs |
| 15:44 |
celeron55 |
currently it's a huge issue that new people enter the modding scene instead of the engine internal C++ stuff |
| 15:44 |
rubenwardy |
both are underserved |
| 15:45 |
celeron55 |
we need more in-depth C++ people |
| 15:45 |
celeron55 |
nobody else can review engine PRs |
| 15:45 |
rubenwardy |
yeah |
| 15:46 |
freshreplicant[m |
But does the way things like shadowmapping were received further or hinder that cause? I'm not asking you if you think it's a good feature, or not, because I know that's very controversial. |
| 15:46 |
freshreplicant[m |
Just how it was dealt with. |
| 15:46 |
_Zaizen_[m] |
<MTDiscord> "<luatic> Read erlehmann's..." <- Alright, it's not an improvement. And I don't actually care if the pr get's merged or not. My issue with the pr is that the only person that seem to actually want to have a discussion about the issue in a civil way is rubenwardy and it's been like this in many instances. |
| 15:47 |
celeron55 |
freshreplicant[m: it was pretty rough and i hope people learned from it |
| 15:47 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Zaizen: How is erlehmann not being civil? |
| 15:48 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> We're trying not to establish the toxicity kilbith is envisioning, but you gotta take some constructive criticism. |
| 15:48 |
freshreplicant[m |
I don't even think that shadowmapping thing is over. If I go into a dark room and say 'shadowmapping' three times in the mirror it will probably summon the whole drama all over again. |
| 15:48 |
freshreplicant[m |
Inclusive of attacks on the people submitting the PRs. |
| 15:50 |
rubenwardy |
the moon PR has been fairly civil, people just disagree and get heated towards the end (on both sides) |
| 15:50 |
rubenwardy |
this IRC however... |
| 15:50 |
freshreplicant[m |
Just to be clear, I have no horse in the race with this moon thing. |
| 15:51 |
kilbith |
people are obsessed with my supposedly "toxic" behavior but seem to forget fairly quick how hmmmm was |
| 15:51 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> who even was hmmmm? |
| 15:51 |
celeron55 |
hmmmm is long gone, he doesn't matter anymore |
| 15:51 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> also strawman argument |
| 15:52 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> celeron55: apparently he was kilbith's mentor ;) |
| 15:52 |
celeron55 |
well that's pretty bad |
| 15:52 |
kilbith |
true, I learnt alot from him |
| 15:52 |
celeron55 |
let's just ban kilbith already. everyone please vote for your preferred ban duration |
| 15:53 |
celeron55 |
the reason will be the way he started this discussion |
| 15:53 |
kilbith |
shooting in your own feet that's called |
| 15:53 |
rubenwardy |
I'm from the UK, direct democracy is often disappointing |
| 15:53 |
freshreplicant[m |
Not sure banning Kilbith will fix what I was talking about anyhow. |
| 15:53 |
celeron55 |
well ok, let's then try to make something out of this discussion |
| 15:53 |
freshreplicant[m |
Wasn't really about 'toxcity' or 'civility' really but just the amount of smoke and spinning tires vs forward momentum. |
| 15:53 |
rubenwardy |
the fix would be a code of conduct, perhaps adapting the forum rules onto GitHub |
| 15:54 |
erlehmann |
i am sorry. i just drank mineral water and it did not taste like mineral water at all but like some cleaning agent or something. i will not be able to take part in this discussion. sorry! |
| 15:54 |
rubenwardy |
ah right |
| 15:54 |
rubenwardy |
no idea how you fix that |
| 15:54 |
celeron55 |
i just can't understand why it's so hard to not to comment on the person making a PR or issue, but instead comment the PR or issue itself |
| 15:54 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> ^ |
| 15:54 |
celeron55 |
it's obvious and easy |
| 15:54 |
celeron55 |
just do it |
| 15:54 |
celeron55 |
i can't say anything more |
| 15:55 |
kilbith |
i just don't understand the legitimacy of you being the project leader anymore |
| 15:55 |
kilbith |
you are not useful |
| 15:55 |
rubenwardy |
100%. That makes it productive |
| 15:57 |
celeron55 |
about the smoke and spinning tires, i think also that isn't difficult to improve by everyone participating |
| 15:58 |
celeron55 |
you can look at for example how people start discussions on this channel, and how they end up |
| 15:59 |
freshreplicant[m |
I just don't get why, just as a 'community member' it doesn't seem nearly as bad in other projects I follow, many of which lack a proper dictator for life as well. |
| 15:59 |
celeron55 |
the simplest possible thing you can do that builds momentum is, pick a PR that's already moving and mention it here |
| 15:59 |
freshreplicant[m |
Is there anything to be gained from talking to community organisers on other projects to see what works? |
| 16:01 |
rubenwardy |
perhaps |
| 16:01 |
celeron55 |
community organizers? i don't think we have any |
| 16:01 |
celeron55 |
so who wants to begin |
| 16:02 |
rubenwardy |
benrob mentioned interest a while back |
| 16:02 |
freshreplicant[m |
I'll start building a wicker man for Benrob so. |
| 16:02 |
freshreplicant[m |
You guys get the torches ready. |
| 16:04 |
celeron55 |
i think i kind of lost once chance of better community organizing, i would have needed to set up more things during a time i was very inactive for that to have happened |
| 16:05 |
celeron55 |
but things happen |
| 16:05 |
rubenwardy |
the forums dying kinda fragmented the community out a bit |
| 16:05 |
rubenwardy |
the game jam was awesome though |
| 16:05 |
celeron55 |
well, that wasn't it, but it has had some effect also |
| 16:07 |
freshreplicant[m |
The game -> engine transition too. Unless I'm wrong that this started as a game primarily. |
| 16:08 |
celeron55 |
the community was tiny back when the technical choice was made |
| 16:09 |
freshreplicant[m |
I think the podcast was cool, especially the first episode. Nathan does great videos too. |
| 16:10 |
freshreplicant[m |
There's talk on the forums of creating separate clients for MT games, sounds like something that could potentially fragment things further. Could be great I guess, if one of those games really takes off. Who knows! |
| 16:10 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I think the game->engine transition was probably inevitable, as the amount of work necessary to work around the old game would have been worse. |
| 16:11 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> The only reason I ended up making a game in the first place was because 5 years of trying to make a modpack went nowhere. |
| 16:11 |
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kilbith_ joined #minetest-dev |
| 16:16 |
freshreplicant[m |
I just wonder though, if a game in the MT engine really wants to push the boundaries in what's possible, can radical new features be introduced without causing issues for the devs of other games (or just stirring up resistance from them)? |
| 16:17 |
rubenwardy |
big changes are hard without breakages |
| 16:20 |
erlehmann |
freshreplicant[m it is the games that push boundaries that get hit hardest by “we did not document this, so you can not rely on it” arbitrary changes |
| 16:21 |
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olliy1or joined #minetest-dev |
| 16:27 |
freshreplicant[m |
Since MT is no longer intended to be the FOSS answer to Minecraft and the engine is the way forward, it seems like there's to possible models that could be applicable: something like Godot (where a player might never know about the framework/engine) or something like a FOSS Roblox, where the there's still a sort of central hub. |
| 16:27 |
rubenwardy |
Minetest is more like Roblox than Godot |
| 16:28 |
freshreplicant[m |
Right now it is, sure. |
| 16:28 |
freshreplicant[m |
But with discussions like this: https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=27360 |
| 16:29 |
freshreplicant[m |
It's not clear if that's intentional, or just an accident. |
| 16:30 |
freshreplicant[m |
If separate launchers and ways to distribute games is the aim, then I guess it will be more like Godot. |
| 16:32 |
celeron55 |
it's already possible to package a minetest game like godot without even making a new build of the engine |
| 16:32 |
celeron55 |
you just have to modify the main menu to suit your game |
| 16:33 |
celeron55 |
the only problem really is that you can't change the window title. a PR for a setting for that will be accepted |
| 16:33 |
rubenwardy |
maybe it should be done based on game.conf? |
| 16:33 |
rubenwardy |
well, I suppose there's also the issue of multiple games in the mainmenu |
| 16:34 |
celeron55 |
well at some point you'll have to do your own build of the engine |
| 16:34 |
celeron55 |
but for small projects i think it shouldn't be necessary |
| 16:35 |
freshreplicant[m |
So is this kind of the intended trajectory? |
| 16:35 |
freshreplicant[m |
Less Roblox, more Godot? |
| 16:36 |
rubenwardy |
bit a column a, bit of column b |
| 16:36 |
rubenwardy |
Minetest as a platform is interesting from a community/tinkerer perspective |
| 16:36 |
rubenwardy |
but supporting standalone games would be desirable |
| 16:38 |
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definitelya joined #minetest-dev |
| 16:39 |
definitelya |
Hey. Sorry, just plugging my thread 'cause I think it's useful: https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=27424 |
| 16:39 |
freshreplicant[m |
I'm not disagreeing, but doesn't that 'bit of column A, bit of column B' approach kind of relate to the whole spinning wheels vs moving forward thing? |
| 16:40 |
freshreplicant[m |
Veloren doesn't have that problem. It's a game (though it is an engine, and will later have all the possibilities of spin-off games and mods later). Godot is an engine, not a game. |
| 16:41 |
freshreplicant[m |
Sorry, Veloren has an engine behind it, not is an engine, I meant. |
| 16:43 |
erlehmann |
freshreplicant[m from a game developer perspective (mineclonia here) the biggest problem is really regressions, not that the engine does not move forward fast enough. |
| 16:45 |
erlehmann |
freshreplicant[m also, new features are cool, but instability in the engine is much more hated by players than if a feature is missing. |
| 16:47 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I've often noticed, at least outside the game world, that trying to bypass your customers and serve your customers' customers directly sounds fine in theory but often causes problems. |
| 16:47 |
erlehmann |
yes |
| 16:48 |
erlehmann |
i believe minetest has that problem |
| 16:48 |
erlehmann |
at least from time to time |
| 16:48 |
rubenwardy |
Players are also our customers |
| 16:49 |
rubenwardy |
We have two audiences |
| 16:49 |
rubenwardy |
Until such a point that most games and players use standalone clients |
| 16:50 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Yeah, that's what I'm saying is problematic. Tbf with the way MP works, it's pretty hard to fix though. |
| 16:50 |
erlehmann |
well, i have a good example, i think: there was a proposal (by desour i think?) to keep velocitd if detaching of an object. i pointed out that it breaks a bunch of games, it was scrapped, someone suggested to make such a thing opt-in. |
| 16:50 |
erlehmann |
so far so good. |
| 16:50 |
erlehmann |
the problem was that the original proposal did not seem to consider game devs at all, just what players would expect |
| 16:51 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Game mechanic stuff like conservation of momentum is a game dev's responsibility. |
| 16:51 |
erlehmann |
indeed |
| 16:52 |
erlehmann |
and in this case, i pointed out that a lot of mechanics actually rely on momentum not being conserved and i am happy it was not a zughy proposal ^^ |
| 16:53 |
erlehmann |
rubenwardy i believe with the freeze of minetest_game, “players are also our customers” could be actively being moved away from |
| 16:53 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> As game devs we already have plenty of hacks and workarounds for tons of stuff, which is not ideal of course, but it's really more important to fix things that we really can't just hack around. |
| 16:54 |
erlehmann |
oh yeah, i would actually prefer if “this should be fixed in the engine” would only be taken seriously if it came mostly from experienced game devs and not mostly from engine devs |
| 16:55 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> "players are also out customers" will probably never be eliminated, but it can probably be narrowed in scope, i.e. it only applies to the main menu, rendering options, etc. and not to in-game mechanics or other moddables. |
| 16:55 |
rubenwardy |
We still distribute clients and host player communities, erleh |
| 16:55 |
rubenwardy |
Oops failed autocomplete |
| 16:56 |
erlehmann |
rubenwardy yes but that can be the grounds for the narrowing of the scope, as Warr1024 says |
| 16:56 |
freshreplicant[m |
I try to be as objective as possible, but when I said 'pushing the envelope', I wasn't really thinking of clones so to say, though I get a straight up clone project can still push the envelope on a technical level. |
| 17:00 |
celeron55 |
if you think that way, then you really have to ask the questions "what is the end goal" and "is this the best way to reach the end goal" |
| 17:01 |
celeron55 |
frankly the answers probably are "we're only going to find out" and "probably not" |
| 17:02 |
erlehmann |
freshreplicant[m look, in my eyes, pushing the envelope is stuff like CTF doing FPS mechanics, that racing game from game jam, mineclone5 encoding images on the fly. |
| 17:02 |
erlehmann |
freshreplicant[m all of those are technical challenges for the most part, not gameplay challenges |
| 17:03 |
erlehmann |
or the skybox mod that makes the fog color similar to the skybox horizon color to look awesome |
| 17:03 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> The "get out of the gamedevs' way" thing to me is just assuming that making players happy is the end goal. The best way to do that is by empowering people who are already dedicated to that cause, instead of fighting against them. |
| 17:03 |
erlehmann |
there are so many cool little things |
| 17:03 |
erlehmann |
what Warr1024 says |
| 17:04 |
erlehmann |
about every PR from wuzzy for example comes from a game dev perspective |
| 17:04 |
erlehmann |
shadows on the other hand … users want them, game devs are sceptical lol |
| 17:04 |
erlehmann |
shadows are “controversial” |
| 17:04 |
freshreplicant[m |
Not sure if the question of instability is more hated by players than lack of features is that clear cut though. In a mature, feature packed game? Maybe. By long time players who have things set up exactly as they are? Maybe. |
| 17:05 |
erlehmann |
freshreplicant[m try running a server (friends do that) or developing a game, or even a small mod that many people use. it might change your perspective. |
| 17:05 |
erlehmann |
users *hate* change that has no upsides. some even hate change that has upsides. |
| 17:06 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Different players will have different degrees of loss aversion, but everyone has some. |
| 17:06 |
freshreplicant[m |
It will probably take a while before saying 'players' in the MTE world means, on average, people not playing modded MTG though. |
| 17:06 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I just made major recipe changes in NodeCore and even conditioned as the players are to having to tolerate sudden change it's not painless. |
| 17:07 |
erlehmann |
Warr1024 have you considered making an option to keep the old recipes? |
| 17:07 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> There is already an option: it's called a fork. |
| 17:07 |
erlehmann |
ah ok |
| 17:07 |
erlehmann |
obv |
| 17:07 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> That's the extent of maintenance I'm willing to do to keep the most universally hated recipes in the game |
| 17:07 |
freshreplicant[m |
I logged on to Veloren the other day, on their production server. |
| 17:07 |
freshreplicant[m |
My characters skill points were reset. |
| 17:08 |
erlehmann |
freshreplicant[m it does not matter if they play MTG mod soup or something else. players hate if stuff breaks. |
| 17:08 |
freshreplicant[m |
I didn't go on a tantrum, or rage about it. Don't think many (or any people) did. |
| 17:08 |
erlehmann |
and no amount of “but our API is cleaner now” will pacify them |
| 17:08 |
erlehmann |
they do not care about the API |
| 17:08 |
freshreplicant[m |
I saw the progress and direction of the project and decided it's worth that inconvenience. |
| 17:09 |
erlehmann |
you can see this very well with the people who react to well-thought-out arguments about dynamic shadows with BUT SHADOWS COOL I WANT AND THIS ANIME MODEL IS NOT CUBIC IT SUCKS ANYWAY GIVE SHADOWS PLS |
| 17:09 |
freshreplicant[m |
It's harder with MTE of course, because there's now like one main playerbase and a whole bunch of smaller ones with some mingling. |
| 17:09 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Every player has a different tolerance for loss outside of their control, and as long as you're sufficiently gentle about it you can still make changes without having to pull the rug out from under someone... |
| 17:09 |
erlehmann |
freshreplicant[m i believe you are mistaken if you think there is a main playerbase |
| 17:10 |
freshreplicant[m |
Really? Statistically? |
| 17:10 |
erlehmann |
no two servers i have seen are alike, even different mineclone2 servers have vastly different culture |
| 17:10 |
celeron55 |
i think MT's online playerbase is quite flexible regarding to games |
| 17:10 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Thinking of the MT community as a monolith is probably not very useful. |
| 17:10 |
erlehmann |
you can check this out for yourself actually, the json from the server announcement contains the mods |
| 17:11 |
freshreplicant[m |
I dunno, I would have thought modded MTG is still the dominant portion. ?♂️ |
| 17:11 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> They aren't "dominant", merely "numerous". |
| 17:12 |
erlehmann |
and those numerous MTG players each have a bunch of different mods installed |
| 17:12 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> No one segment of the player population has a "controlling interest" and can make decisions for the whole. |
| 17:12 |
erlehmann |
also i think it is save to say that minetest_game is the one game that will never beg for new features ^^ |
| 17:12 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> If we were just about doing what's popular and the people who want to do something different have to just suck it up, we'd all just go play Minecraft. |
| 17:13 |
erlehmann |
hehe |
| 17:14 |
erlehmann |
this is not a joke |
| 17:14 |
erlehmann |
i told an online game who develops minecraft mods to try minetest |
| 17:14 |
celeron55 |
i think everyone in the community wants more from their effort than just FOSS minecraft |
| 17:14 |
erlehmann |
she hates the hodgepodge of different things |
| 17:14 |
erlehmann |
she apparently wants a game that is governerned with an iron grip, like stalin did it |
| 17:14 |
celeron55 |
it's just not entirely clear what the "more" is exactly supposed to be |
| 17:15 |
freshreplicant[m |
For the record, I don't want FOSS Minecraft. I don't play Mineclone 2 or 5, or Mineclonia. No shade on them, just not what I'm here for. |
| 17:15 |
celeron55 |
me neither, really. FOSS minecraft is a useful technical benchmark, but it's not interesting otherwise |
| 17:15 |
freshreplicant[m |
That general genre though, as much as Terraria or Hypixel occupy that space. |
| 17:16 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I hated the hodgepodge and that was why I gave up on Minecraft, and eventually gave up on MTG and made my own game. I love that MTE enabled that as an option. |
| 17:16 |
freshreplicant[m |
That is definitely what I'm here for. |
| 17:16 |
erlehmann |
celeron55 following a rough roadmap of imitating minecraft frees people from disagreeing about creative decisions though |
| 17:17 |
celeron55 |
the mineclones of course should be doing exactly what they're doing |
| 17:17 |
erlehmann |
also otherwise i doubt minetest would have games that are so obviously about colonizing and exploitation, minecraft does that very well |
| 17:17 |
erlehmann |
it really is the grimdark of block games |
| 17:18 |
celeron55 |
anyway, i would characterize this discussion as "trying to see the forst for the trees" and it should be done more |
| 17:18 |
celeron55 |
forest* |
| 17:18 |
freshreplicant[m |
If the kart games on MTE suddenly become better and more fun than Super Tux Kart, cool though. Or if suddenly MTE is cranking out RTS of the quality, fun and popularity (so you can play with people) of 0AD or TBSs on the level of Wesnoth. |
| 17:18 |
MTDiscord |
<josiah_wi> So you've said what Minetest is not, but what is Minetest's goal? |
| 17:19 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> To be everything it isn't not :-D |
| 17:19 |
erlehmann |
obviously, one of the goals is change. change you can believe in. you believe it because your old code does not run anymore. |
| 17:19 |
erlehmann |
it is legacy now, go update your mod! |
| 17:19 |
erlehmann |
freshreplicant[m what are you here for though, did you develop any mods or games |
| 17:19 |
freshreplicant[m |
Just...not sure we're anywhere near yet. These projects are cool, but they feel a bit like running Doom on a calculator. Something that makes you go 'Huh, cool. Somebody did it" but not something that you'll necessarily play. |
| 17:20 |
erlehmann |
which projects? |
| 17:20 |
freshreplicant[m |
No, erlehmann. I'm not a dev (so I probably shouldn't be talking here). I'm unashamedly more of a player than a dev. |
| 17:20 |
erlehmann |
0ad is more fun than age of empires, but laggy as hell in the lategame |
| 17:20 |
erlehmann |
freshreplicant[m why would you care about engine direction if you are not a gamedev. |
| 17:20 |
erlehmann |
i don't get it |
| 17:20 |
freshreplicant[m |
Just trying to bring that perspective, it's ok if it's not appropriate here. |
| 17:21 |
erlehmann |
no one said you should not talk! |
| 17:21 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Insofar as engine design limits game dev possibilities, I would imagine a player could actually be quite interested. |
| 17:21 |
freshreplicant[m |
Because I understand the engine direction will affect the gameplay experience and possibilities. |
| 17:21 |
erlehmann |
yeah but then they might have a vision of what kind of game they want to play |
| 17:22 |
MTDiscord |
<josiah_wi> I don't think Minetest will ever be truly great unless the attitude of the community changes. When you've fallen to the point that the drama is practically an inside joke, what are you even doing anymore. |
| 17:22 |
erlehmann |
i have a vision: i want to make a space game. or one where you live on a giant cubic planet. alas, the gravity system does not allow me to make one in an easy way. |
| 17:22 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> "truly great" is kind of an arbitrary goalpost, and remember that a lot of why we joke about the drama is because taking things too seriously is a big cause of drama in the first place. |
| 17:23 |
erlehmann |
josiah_wi every hobby has dramas |
| 17:23 |
celeron55 |
i don't know of any social circles where i would be in where drama wasn't an inside joke |
| 17:23 |
celeron55 |
literally |
| 17:24 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I might actually be terrified if I ever found a community where we couldn't take drama lightly. |
| 17:24 |
erlehmann |
MESE is best |
| 17:24 |
freshreplicant[m |
Still though, there's always the ratio of drama to...other stuff, no? |
| 17:24 |
celeron55 |
there definitely is |
| 17:24 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Other stuff ... like actually getting shit done? |
| 17:25 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> That would be nice too ;-D |
| 17:25 |
erlehmann |
look no one talks for 30 comments about stuff that works well |
| 17:25 |
MTDiscord |
<josiah_wi> If they did this community would be a lot nicer place. |
| 17:25 |
erlehmann |
also have you seen discussions on systemd stuff? *that* is drama |
| 17:26 |
freshreplicant[m |
Systemd doesn't grind to a halt because people hate its guts. |
| 17:26 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> It would be more pleasant if we could be more appreciative of what does work, but that kind of thing is also not as productive a thing to spend time on as far as forward momentum goes. |
| 17:26 |
freshreplicant[m |
It still keeps going, whether anyone thinks its for better or worse. |
| 17:26 |
celeron55 |
freshreplicant[m: there's big enterprise money pushing it forward |
| 17:26 |
erlehmann |
which is because the ppl in the systemd team are for the most part the same type of guy sharing a goal |
| 17:26 |
MTDiscord |
<josiah_wi> I fail to see how being unappreciative leads to forward momentum. |
| 17:27 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> It doesn't either, but discussions about controversial things in the future matter, whereas things in the past not so much |
| 17:27 |
erlehmann |
celeron55 i bet big enterprise would be happier if their employees would not try to shit on every other project ;) |
| 17:28 |
freshreplicant[m |
I just wonder if we surveyed players, on aggregate, across the whole MTE ecosystem and asked them about stuff like shadowmapping, or expanding the world size, would they be interested or excited about it? |
| 17:28 |
erlehmann |
why does it matter |
| 17:28 |
erlehmann |
to you, i mean |
| 17:29 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Yeah, I've largely taken a kind of Steve Jobs approach to design where I don't expect users to know whether they want something or not untill they actually have it in their hands. |
| 17:29 |
erlehmann |
users lie after all |
| 17:29 |
erlehmann |
steve jobs also lies, but differently |
| 17:29 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Users don't even know they're lying because they lie to themselves. |
| 17:29 |
freshreplicant[m |
Why does what matter to me? |
| 17:30 |
erlehmann |
why does it matter to you if users are excited, are you working in marketing or something? |
| 17:30 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> We as humans are exceptionally bad at predicting how something hypothetical would make us feel in the future. |
| 17:30 |
freshreplicant[m |
Oh, because I think that players matter to games and game engines. |
| 17:30 |
|
olliy joined #minetest-dev |
| 17:31 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Players matter, but quantity of players doesn't really, to me, so knowing the quantity of players interested in a thing wouldn't help me, at least. |
| 17:31 |
erlehmann |
i am always suspicious if someone is like “but feature X gets you more players” |
| 17:31 |
MTDiscord |
<josiah_wi> The number one reason I've heard for people not playing Minetest is the user experience. |
| 17:31 |
freshreplicant[m |
Would you say there's a co-relation between numbers of players, general project popularity and devs? |
| 17:32 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I mean it's a game system, so UX is like everything... |
| 17:32 |
erlehmann |
why would you even listen to people who not play minetest about what minetest should do |
| 17:32 |
MTDiscord |
<josiah_wi> Because I respect their opinion? |
| 17:32 |
erlehmann |
but if they do not play minetest, how can they form a good opinion? |
| 17:32 |
erlehmann |
about it |
| 17:33 |
MTDiscord |
<josiah_wi> I'm referring to people who tried Minetest and then went back to Minrecraft because it's "better" |
| 17:33 |
erlehmann |
oh ok |
| 17:33 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I actually have made it a point to respect people's opinions about my game, even while completely not doing what they think I should be doing. |
| 17:33 |
freshreplicant[m |
Then why is it not important to listen to people who (god forbid) like MTG and modded MTG and loved the direction shadowmapping was going? |
| 17:33 |
erlehmann |
i do not care about those. they have found something that suits them. |
| 17:34 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> People who find Minecraft inherently "better" than any of the experiences available in Minetest are just out of scope for me. |
| 17:34 |
erlehmann |
freshreplicant[m who said that it is not? |
| 17:34 |
MTDiscord |
<josiah_wi> I was personally very excited about shadowmapping. Not only excited but very impressed, astonished even. |
| 17:34 |
freshreplicant[m |
The whole furore around shadowmapping certain made it seem that way. |
| 17:35 |
freshreplicant[m |
Probably also to the contributors submitting the PRs. |
| 17:35 |
MTDiscord |
<josiah_wi> I actually checked out the branch early to test it out. |
| 17:35 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I thought shadowmapping was a neat trick, even though I won't use it in my own game as it's not applicable. It's sort of like the "cool cam" story and might actually be a boon for the project, if it can just be done right (or disabled when appropriate) |
| 17:36 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Really if there were just a player:set_shadows_allowed(bool) or something I'd have no objection. |
| 17:36 |
freshreplicant[m |
The voices who felt...a lot more negatively about it...than you guys were just way louder. |
| 17:37 |
freshreplicant[m |
Thankfully it's still going though. |
| 17:37 |
erlehmann |
well to be fair the shadowmapping thing was merged based on hype |
| 17:37 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Something doesn't have to be great, it just needs to be a little better, and there needs to be a sane thing you can do to make sure it isn't worse. |
| 17:37 |
erlehmann |
and not on technical achievement (as it obviosly introduced a bunch of rendering errors and did not sit right with game devs) |
| 17:38 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Hype is unfortunately a thing that we can't entirely discount because any project needs some of it from time to time. |
| 17:38 |
freshreplicant[m |
But it's progressing, right? Work is ongoing in response to those concerns? |
| 17:38 |
erlehmann |
i think shadows is a good example for stuff that players LOVE but game devs are at most lukewarm about |
| 17:39 |
erlehmann |
freshreplicant[m i think many bugs were fixed, not sure which ones are still open |
| 17:39 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I'm fine with lukewarm, myself, as long as it's on the balmier side of tepid. |
| 17:39 |
freshreplicant[m |
Would MTE be better off if the people behind those PRs (and those in favours) had thrown in the towel, never to revisit the idea again? |
| 17:39 |
MTDiscord |
<josiah_wi> Hype can be directed into doing a good job though. What I'm hearing is that the shadowmapping was a half-done job and now people feel iffy about that. |
| 17:39 |
erlehmann |
it would be better off if someone™ had waited until the feature was ready |
| 17:39 |
mister-e[m] |
I'm a gamedev and a player. As a player, I love it, and as a gamedev, I want to be able to forcibly disable it if I choose, bpt also love it, tho now I want colored light |
| 17:39 |
mister-e[m] |
As a game dev |
| 17:40 |
erlehmann |
because if all concerns were addressed before, it would not be a problem |
| 17:41 |
freshreplicant[m |
But they had to be raised first of all, right? |
| 17:41 |
freshreplicant[m |
So they could be addressed, worked on further. |
| 17:41 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Waiting until things are "ready" is what so often kills good ideas that I try to give new ideas a lot of leeway so long as they can avoid stepping on toes. At worst, the shadow mapping thing is just a cosmetic thing anyway, and for e.g. games without a sun in the sky, there are at least workarounds. |
| 17:42 |
erlehmann |
yeah, the 200k line removal patch was handled much worse |
| 17:42 |
erlehmann |
but i need a sleep |
| 17:42 |
MTDiscord |
<josiah_wi> So... why aren't we fixing the concerns? That's what boggles my mind. |
| 17:42 |
freshreplicant[m |
I don't think anybody actually disagreed with making it toggleable. |
| 17:42 |
freshreplicant[m |
Or opt-out. |
| 17:42 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> A lot of the reason my own project makes progress is because I merge things when they're okay but not perfect, and perfect can be worked on down the road. |
| 17:42 |
freshreplicant[m |
There was lots of roaring about killing it dead because it wasn't perfect from day 1. |
| 17:43 |
mister-e[m] |
That just doesn't make sense to me |
| 17:43 |
MTDiscord |
<josiah_wi> A great mind once said that it's great when you sit in a meeting listening to everyone arguing about how to implement a feature, and when they finish you're done implementing it. |
| 17:44 |
freshreplicant[m |
Nuke it from orbit, because it tarnished some games that (as far as I know) aren't even playable yet. |
| 17:44 |
erlehmann |
a lot of the reasons why mineclonia is not as buggy and unstable as mineclone2 is because stuff needs to be stable before a merge |
| 17:44 |
MTDiscord |
<josiah_wi> I believe that was Warr. |
| 17:44 |
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| 17:44 |
erlehmann |
Fleckenstein merged the most important stuff back into mineclone2 though |
| 17:44 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> There's a lot of "why wasn't this done right" noise all the time, and people forget that you're not supposed to do it right the first time; doing it half-assed is often the only way to find out what right really IS. What's obviously right to you is just as obviously wrong to the person next to you. |
| 17:44 |
erlehmann |
Fleckenstein said it once, mineclonia is defined by what it not has (new features that might be less stable) |
| 17:45 |
MTDiscord |
<josiah_wi> You are, however, supposed to go back and tidy it up after the first round. |
| 17:46 |
celeron55 |
i would love to merge half assed stuff into MTE |
| 17:46 |
celeron55 |
but it's not practically possible |
| 17:46 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I guess going back and fixing things often requires some high-level leadership that can prioritize stuff from a very big picture view, but most of what MTE has is a bunch of specialists in their own interest areas, which doesn't make for good governance... |
| 17:47 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> We need an iron-fisted and heavily invested c55 :-D |
| 17:47 |
celeron55 |
piling what's essentially technical debt into an engine makes for an absolute shitshow |
| 17:47 |
MTDiscord |
<josiah_wi> Celeron, you could merge my half a$$ed unit tests into Irrlicht - nobody probably runs the tests anyway. (joking, I want to be recognized as caring to do things well lol) |
| 17:47 |
celeron55 |
it took years to fix the stuff made during the time when we allowed some core devs to merge stuff without reviews from others |
| 17:47 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Technical debt is fine as long as you can make the necessary payments. We keep missing the payments and so therefore nobody offers us credit anymore. |
| 17:49 |
celeron55 |
like, i could go and merge the database mod storage PR right now |
| 17:49 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Ironically we can't even get technical debt loans at this point to cover the work necessary to make payments on past debts :-| |
| 17:49 |
celeron55 |
but i have no idea if it works on like 12% of the android devices MT is run on |
| 17:49 |
rubenwardy |
the mod storage PR was reviewed though |
| 17:49 |
rubenwardy |
oh right |
| 17:49 |
freshreplicant[m |
There has to be comfy middle ground between merging and murdering though, right? |
| 17:51 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Yeah, sentencing PRs to life in the backlog without parole :-D |
| 17:51 |
celeron55 |
Warr1024: well, some things have gotten such loans - the shadows for example |
| 17:51 |
celeron55 |
we're still waiting how that'll turn out |
| 17:52 |
MTDiscord |
<josiah_wi> Since I want to improve code quality etc. can I maybe get a free pass to use uniform initalization? ? |
| 17:53 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Tbh if you released MTE 5.5 today with shadows enabled and players had full control of them and gamedevs did not, I at least would be able to handle it. I've got a workaround, it's not great, but it does the job where it matters. |
| 17:54 |
mister-e[m] |
What is the workaround? |
| 17:54 |
freshreplicant[m |
I have not turned off shadows since they were available, and play on MTE 5.5 explicitly because of them. But the again, I also have a system that can handle them. |
| 17:55 |
mister-e[m] |
Yeah unfortunately I have to disable shadows on some devices bc of performance |
| 17:56 |
mister-e[m] |
But when I can use them theyre great |
| 17:58 |
freshreplicant[m |
If Minetest does continue moving towards the Roblox-y side of things: does Roblox have one central account/client? |
| 17:59 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> We don't want that here. |
| 17:59 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I can't force disable shadows in a performance sense, but I can make them display nothing by forcing the time of day to stay at 5AM when shadows are invisible. |
| 18:00 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Players who don't want the performance impact of shadows ... should just turn them off regardless. |
| 18:00 |
sfan5 |
do I need to read anything of the last 500 messages |
| 18:00 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Unlikely? |
| 18:00 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> Not really |
| 18:01 |
celeron55 |
reviewing a PR is probably a better bet |
| 18:01 |
freshreplicant[m |
As somebody who contributed a good few of them... |
| 18:01 |
freshreplicant[m |
Probably not. |
| 18:02 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> Tldr: Erlehmann whining, kibilith being himself as usual, moon arguments, bikeshedding |
| 18:02 |
celeron55 |
sfan5: give me an opinion on whether 5.5 has too many blocking issues |
| 18:02 |
celeron55 |
i'd like to add one, lol |
| 18:02 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> wsor: you don't get it |
| 18:03 |
sfan5 |
I wish it was less but it's not too much |
| 18:03 |
celeron55 |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/11763#issuecomment-1007614587 |
| 18:03 |
celeron55 |
referring to this |
| 18:04 |
freshreplicant[m |
I'll go back to the parts of the community without the '-dev' suffix soon. As a random player I get antsy being here too long. |
| 18:05 |
celeron55 |
well actually, as there are so many people here... does anyone happen to have an old android device? |
| 18:05 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> celeron55: I don't think the "REPLACE INTO" is much of an issue. |
| 18:05 |
MTDiscord |
<josiah_wi> I have an Android 5 device. |
| 18:05 |
sfan5 |
how does this bug exist anyway |
| 18:06 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> It doesn't |
| 18:06 |
sfan5 |
we ship our own sqlite version, how can it have a version-specific bug? |
| 18:06 |
celeron55 |
well we can decide not to make it an issue |
| 18:06 |
celeron55 |
do we? |
| 18:06 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> The PR author just did his job exceedingly well and identified an ancient workaround |
| 18:06 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Which got him wondering whether he would have to include the same workaround |
| 18:07 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> But from a couple quick Google searches, I see no reason to include the workaround |
| 18:07 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I think I have Android 8, 11, and 12. My old Android device is so old though that actually trying to play MT on it is a tad painful. |
| 18:07 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> https://www.sqlite.org/lang_replace.html |
| 18:08 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I can't test super old Android stuff but I suppose you could put me on the "poke these guys for mobile testing" list. |
| 18:08 |
celeron55 |
well, in this case 8 is too new |
| 18:08 |
sfan5 |
anyway I wouldn't worry about the android thing |
| 18:08 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> https://www.sqlite.org/lang_conflict.html according to the docs, "ON CONFLICT" (for which "REPLACE" is just an alias) has been part of SQLite since 2004. |
| 18:08 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Maintaining a list of testing volunteers for each platform would be nice. |
| 18:08 |
celeron55 |
believe or not, 12% of android users use 8.0 or older |
| 18:08 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Hmm, that's a shame. |
| 18:08 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I believe it. |
| 18:09 |
celeron55 |
5 is great for testing this, but |
| 18:09 |
sfan5 |
personally I'd like to read the code of that specific PR before it's merged but if two other devs have reviewed it instead then it must be okay |
| 18:09 |
celeron55 |
let's go with "we cannot figure out why this workaround would have to exist, so we will assume it's not needed.... even while it was deliberately made a long time ago" |
| 18:09 |
celeron55 |
i read every line of it, it's fine |
| 18:10 |
sfan5 |
how often is a value copied when it's written to the db |
| 18:10 |
sfan5 |
(implicitly by using T instead of T& or T*) |
| 18:11 |
* celeron55 |
needs to go and check |
| 18:14 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> What the heck |
| 18:14 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> This is database abuse |
| 18:14 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> The current player backend deletes the entire player meta during saving |
| 18:14 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> it kills ACID |
| 18:15 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> and then fully rewrites it |
| 18:15 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> that's not how you use a database |
| 18:15 |
sfan5 |
that's okay if done in a transaction |
| 18:15 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> pretty sure it's not in a transaction |
| 18:18 |
celeron55 |
i'm fairly sure the string given as a reference to ModMetadata::setString ends up as a reference all the way to sqlite3_bind_text |
| 18:19 |
sfan5 |
sounds good |
| 18:19 |
celeron55 |
wait |
| 18:19 |
celeron55 |
i mean sqlite3_bind_blob |
| 18:20 |
celeron55 |
the implementation is pretty simple, the worst part i think is that there's duplication between this and some existing code that this was... duplicated from |
| 18:21 |
celeron55 |
but it isn't exactly the same so it would need some actual rework to unify anything |
| 18:22 |
celeron55 |
and it already uses Database_SQLite3 |
| 18:22 |
celeron55 |
so, it's pretty much what i would have done |
| 18:23 |
sfan5 |
rubenwardy: "It should error when opening the dialog" is this new code or just fixing an existing condition? |
| 18:23 |
sfan5 |
well I'm probably supposed to find out myself |
| 18:24 |
rubenwardy |
Previously, there was a game list so the error bad sense after opening the dialog |
| 18:24 |
rubenwardy |
There's no game list now so the error should either be before opening the dialog, or it should select a game magically |
| 18:24 |
sfan5 |
wait I thought your situation was that *no game* is installed |
| 18:24 |
rubenwardy |
The latter is what happens if no game is specified in .conf |
| 18:24 |
sfan5 |
in that case it's my fallback code that doesn't work |
| 18:25 |
rubenwardy |
Was installed. It's no longer installed |
| 18:25 |
rubenwardy |
There's probably some caching issues or it's not checking for the existence of the game |
| 18:25 |
sfan5 |
I mean: is the total amount of installed games zero or not? |
| 18:25 |
rubenwardy |
There's more than one installed game, but the one that was selected was just uninstalled |
| 18:26 |
sfan5 |
i see |
| 18:26 |
rubenwardy |
it already correctly handles there being no installed games |
| 18:38 |
celeron55 |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11937 |
| 18:38 |
celeron55 |
if someone wants to label it as something or add it to the 5.5 milestone, feel free to |
| 18:39 |
celeron55 |
i guess it could be considered to be a bug |
| 18:41 |
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| 19:59 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> celeron55: No, this is way better than the sucky PlayerDatabaseSQLite3 |
| 20:00 |
v-rob |
I noticed, in that hodge-podge of IRC logs, someone likening Minetest games to "Doom on a calculator". It's really not a bad comparison; I program things on calculators myself because I like the challenge, and I actually do like playing with the things I created. Same with all my Minetest stuff. |
| 20:03 |
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| 20:03 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> NVM ACID is not violated, should have had a closer look at endSave, which commits the transaction |
| 20:04 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Still, this is not optimal for performance |
| 20:05 |
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| 20:07 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> #11938 |
| 20:07 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11938 -- PlayerDatabaseSQLite3 is implemented inefficiently |
| 20:27 |
sfan5 |
this issue has just informed me that editing mod storage directly writes to sqlite3 |
| 20:27 |
sfan5 |
if this is true, how are transactions used / when are they committed? |
| 20:37 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> sfan5: If I'm not mistaken, each change has it's own transaction, which is reasonable |
| 20:37 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/11763/files#diff-92bd418e16a984bf8e5c99f3665744345824f5d377a57918deeb2387af58ecbaR847 |
| 20:41 |
sfan5 |
uh no, I don't see a call to beginSave there |
| 20:41 |
sfan5 |
and that would be far from reasonable |
| 20:41 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Why would it be far from reasonable? |
| 20:42 |
sfan5 |
you want to flush to disk 10 times when writing 10 variables? |
| 20:42 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> SQLite3 handles that |
| 20:42 |
sfan5 |
no it does not |
| 20:42 |
sfan5 |
if you commit 10 times it writes 10 times |
| 20:43 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> flashes are fast on my SSD ¯_(ツ)_/¯ |
| 20:43 |
sfan5 |
https://github.com/TurkeyMcMac/minetest/blob/4fd6a36d6576a89bd54d48fed0322542141f3744/src/client/client.cpp#L654-L660 <- this is reasonable |
| 20:44 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> It should write 10 times, for maximum persistence granularity |
| 20:44 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Otherwise everything that happened in the last MAP_SAVE_INTERVAL seconds might be lost |
| 20:44 |
sfan5 |
yes that's literally what the interval means |
| 20:45 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> I'm aware |
| 20:48 |
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| 21:27 |
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| 21:53 |
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| 21:54 |
Pexin |
I have a working fix to restore bouncy behavior, but it is slightly hacky, and also does anyone know if using sneak to manually reduce jump height at moment of impact would cause problems? (since sneak is used for so many purposes) |
| 21:55 |
Pexin |
I'll hopefully clean it up and push to a fork tonight |
| 22:00 |
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| 22:19 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> During a discussion earlier rubenwardy mentioned Minetest is more like Roblox than Godot: I actually tried Roblox just yesterday, and while Minetest may be closer to Roblox than Godot, it is laughably far away from being anywhere near the level of Roblox in both player and developer experience. |
| 22:24 |
MTDiscord |
<josiah_wi> Did we decide whether I need to do anything with my Android 5 device? |
| 22:24 |
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| 22:58 |
MTDiscord |
<Benrob0329> Minetest is probably closer to Gmod than Roblox |
| 22:59 |
MTDiscord |
<Benrob0329> An old engine with lots of preconceived notions given a Lua API which has numerous problems and long standing issues but which is fun enough to build on that you get the occasional gem out of it. |
| 23:00 |
Pexin |
where "idiots of minetest" videos |
| 23:01 |
Pexin |
minetest idiot blox.. |
| 23:02 |
Pexin |
I hope everyone remembers youtube from 10 years ago or ima look insulting... -_- |
| 23:03 |
MTDiscord |
<Benrob0329> "HAAAAX!" |
| 23:37 |
rubenwardy |
you can now translate ContentDB: https://hosted.weblate.org/projects/minetest/contentdb/ |
| 23:37 |
rubenwardy |
(the interface; user content like packages can't be translated) |
| 23:37 |
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| 23:40 |
kilbith_ |
CDB is in french now? very nice |
| 23:40 |
rubenwardy |
only 50% translated to French, I added it prematurely for testing |
| 23:41 |
kilbith_ |
it's "franglais" like we call it |
| 23:41 |
rubenwardy |
lol |
| 23:41 |
rubenwardy |
I like that |
| 23:45 |
rubenwardy |
ContentDB has about 1/3 the word count of Minetest, and 45% the number of strings |
