| Time |
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Message |
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| 05:52 |
v-rob |
Man, EnrichedString is gross. |
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| 12:14 |
rubenwardy |
anyone know what's happening here? https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=27657 |
| 12:14 |
rubenwardy |
!title |
| 12:14 |
ShadowBot |
minetest not connecting to content db - Minetest Forums |
| 12:19 |
celeron55 |
i think their router has been hacked or something |
| 12:19 |
celeron55 |
Linuxdirk's first answer is spot-on |
| 12:20 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Not necessarily hacked, sometimes "security" software will MITM your traffic to "scan" it. I have experienced this when using my school WiFi. Obviously, they must then send the wrong certificate. Websites with HSTS enabled won't accept that. |
| 12:20 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> My workaround is to just use a VPN. |
| 12:47 |
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| 16:00 |
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| 16:04 |
freshreplicant[m |
There's always this: https://www.grc.com/fingerprints.htm |
| 16:06 |
rubenwardy |
but what if that page is compromised |
| 16:07 |
Krock |
.. why does container[] reset the child element's origin, but not scroll_container[] ? |
| 16:08 |
Krock |
._. scroll_container, not scrollbar_container. nvm |
| 16:32 |
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| 16:54 |
rubenwardy |
trivial update: https://github.com/rubenwardy/minetest.github.io/commit/cc565858e6fddab024af0f2ab6d3a1a56d195e57 |
| 16:55 |
rubenwardy |
remember that the direction.md document has the links I removed |
| 16:56 |
rubenwardy |
well, most of them |
| 17:14 |
Krock |
> mostly iteratively |
| 17:14 |
Krock |
what's this supposed to mean? |
| 17:15 |
Krock |
is that equal to "spontaneous development"? |
| 17:16 |
Krock |
and an "open issues" link would surely be nice to have (without the "high priority" filter) |
| 17:20 |
rubenwardy |
iteratively is code for without much planning. You choose what to do next based on the current state |
| 17:25 |
Krock |
ah that's how it's meant. yes, that makes sense. |
| 17:31 |
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| 17:36 |
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| 17:43 |
perfomanceHigh |
is there a document or page that outlines design decisions? |
| 17:43 |
perfomanceHigh |
Lua is not that highly regarded anymore, so i'm trying to read why Lua was chosen over alternatives. |
| 17:49 |
sfan5 |
the choice to use Lua was made 7+ years ago so how it's regarded today is not particularily relevant |
| 17:50 |
sfan5 |
also I can't think of an alternative off the top of my head |
| 17:50 |
sfan5 |
the important part here is that a language has to be embeddable |
| 17:51 |
Krock |
wHy dO We nOT UsE jAvAscRipT |
| 17:51 |
sfan5 |
javascript is well embeddable these days actually |
| 17:52 |
rubenwardy |
Javascript is tempting :D |
| 17:52 |
Krock |
mostly using CEF, which is a giant beast. slim javascript interpreters might work well for minetest's use-case tho |
| 17:52 |
perfomanceHigh |
yeah, a percentage of devs would unironically use javascript over lua. |
| 17:52 |
perfomanceHigh |
i personally am not advocating for or against anything, but i wish to read about the decision process/trade-off made |
| 17:53 |
rubenwardy |
The main reason is that Lua is small, lightweight, and fast |
| 17:53 |
rubenwardy |
it's a common game language as well |
| 17:53 |
rubenwardy |
Javascript has gotten faster in recent years |
| 17:53 |
sfan5 |
well I was thinking like https://mujs.com/ |
| 17:53 |
sfan5 |
but that's just an interpreter |
| 17:54 |
sfan5 |
nobody wants to touch V8 for embedding |
| 17:54 |
perfomanceHigh |
mmmh, i have heard arguments against it being fast. but ofcourse, that's just a matter of scale. therefore i need to know where Lua is used within the big picture and what the trade-offs are. |
| 17:54 |
rubenwardy |
LuaJIT is fast |
| 17:54 |
sfan5 |
Lua is mostly not used for performance critical parts |
| 17:54 |
celeron55 |
duktape is another lua-like javascript interpreter |
| 17:55 |
sfan5 |
e.g. no number crunching, buffer wrangling |
| 17:55 |
celeron55 |
i've used it and it does work |
| 17:55 |
celeron55 |
but whatever, this entire topic doesn't really make sens |
| 17:55 |
celeron55 |
+e |
| 17:55 |
celeron55 |
lua works fine and there's a lot of code written using it already that MT is compatible with |
| 17:56 |
celeron55 |
and lua isn't a half bad language to learn if you're aiming for the game industry |
| 17:57 |
perfomanceHigh |
so the argument is. "Lua is sufficient, already invested in and there was no reasonable alternative at the time the decision was made"? |
| 17:58 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> honestly even some of the most bloated servers still manage to keep there legs under them with luajit |
| 17:59 |
celeron55 |
back then the only reasonable alternatives would really have been python, which is a pain to embed as it's designed as a host language, and something like guile, which is lisp so nobody wants to program that |
| 18:00 |
celeron55 |
lua is also secure in addition to being small, lightweight and fast |
| 18:00 |
celeron55 |
and extremely easy to embed - which is obvious today as many scripting languages copy lua's interface |
| 18:02 |
rubenwardy |
If I were to add another API, I'd go for something like C# or a general interface like C ABI |
| 18:02 |
rubenwardy |
both of those are much more complicated |
| 18:02 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Yes. Lua is a great language. It can be sufficiently fast; highly performance-relevant code should ideally be part of the engine or Lua libraries written in C(++). Lua's popularity has been stable. It's frequently used in the games industry, as has already been pointed out. I think the burden of proof lies on you, performanceHigh: Why not Lua? Lua is maybe the only thing that MT didn't get horribly wrong. |
| 18:03 |
ROllerozxa |
having javascript as an embedded language honestly sounds extremely unweildy even with a minimal library like duktape |
| 18:03 |
sfan5 |
not like js has a larger stdlib than lua ;) |
| 18:03 |
rubenwardy |
JS isn't that dissimilar from Lua |
| 18:03 |
rubenwardy |
just bigger |
| 18:03 |
rubenwardy |
JS is designed for embedding as well: web browsers |
| 18:04 |
celeron55 |
also i think lua is a better language design than javascript |
| 18:04 |
celeron55 |
javascript is kind of an "oops well let's leave it like that" design |
| 18:04 |
rubenwardy |
there's less of it |
| 18:04 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> ^ |
| 18:04 |
celeron55 |
lua was designed by software reserachers |
| 18:04 |
celeron55 |
who knew what they were doing |
| 18:04 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> JS is dirty as heck, Lua started out clean |
| 18:04 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> JS is slowly getting cleaner, but still is a mess; and a bloaty one, at that |
| 18:04 |
rubenwardy |
JS is more useful |
| 18:05 |
rubenwardy |
and has typescript |
| 18:05 |
perfomanceHigh |
JS is truly the pop culture of languages. everyone loves to hate it, yet it keeps failing upwards. |
| 18:05 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Teal (typed Lua) exists too |
| 18:06 |
celeron55 |
JS - the client-side PHP |
| 18:06 |
rubenwardy |
JS is so much better than PHP |
| 18:06 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Not ES5 |
| 18:06 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> I think a "niche" language is exactly the right choice for a "niche" voxel engine. |
| 18:06 |
celeron55 |
(i actually like PHP, it suits the job 8)) |
| 18:06 |
MTDiscord |
<threehymns> @preformanceHigh, that sounds more like C++ to me LOL |
| 18:08 |
perfomanceHigh |
old C++ devs hate new C++, but it is spoken well off by everyone else (from my experience) |
| 18:08 |
rubenwardy |
and the rest of C++ devs hate old C++ |
| 18:08 |
rubenwardy |
meanwhile I hate all C++ |
| 18:09 |
MTDiscord |
<threehymns> I just gave that one a star ! ? |
| 18:11 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> (1) we can see that (2) the IRC people can't see that and now wonder what a "star" is |
| 18:11 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> meanwhile people in irc not caring because there stuck in the 1800s feature wise. or till ircv3? or whatever the latest standard was |
| 18:11 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Libera doesn't even support a chat history |
| 18:11 |
MTDiscord |
<threehymns> At least ruben can see it! |
| 18:12 |
celeron55 |
at that this rate someone will soon kickban the discord bridge |
| 18:12 |
rubenwardy |
1800s would be telegraph |
| 18:12 |
perfomanceHigh |
i use discord, but i find IRC is more productive. |
| 18:12 |
rubenwardy |
pretty sure this isn't telegraph-based |
| 18:12 |
celeron55 |
-that |
| 18:12 |
perfomanceHigh |
chat history being wiped is nice as well |
| 18:12 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> except its not |
| 18:12 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> its all logged to irc.minetest.net |
| 18:12 |
MTDiscord |
<threehymns> which is sadly a seperate website |
| 18:13 |
MTDiscord |
<Benrob0329> What does this have to do with Minetest? |
| 18:13 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> nothing |
| 18:13 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> more #minetest content |
| 18:13 |
MTDiscord |
<threehymns> #meta-discussion |
| 18:14 |
perfomanceHigh |
yeah, but like, information theory wise, i know my messages are logged. it's just a difference of the conditions under which they are collected. |
| 18:14 |
ROllerozxa |
an IRC client can be run on a crunched together ball of orange peels, try to do the same with discord without getting banned |
| 18:14 |
perfomanceHigh |
irc just has this clean, decentralised feel i wish i used more |
| 18:15 |
rubenwardy |
please -> #minetest |
| 18:15 |
perfomanceHigh |
discord, but you host it yourself rather than sell the data of yourself and all your users. |
| 18:15 |
celeron55 |
the beauty if IRC is it's the bare minimum, and as a result, IRC hosting can be done for free |
| 18:16 |
celeron55 |
of IRC* |
| 18:16 |
celeron55 |
without corporate interests |
| 18:16 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> true |
| 18:16 |
celeron55 |
ideologically it suits projects like MT very well |
| 18:18 |
MTDiscord |
<threehymns> agreed, but discord is not explicitly against opensource, they just understandably dont want people making copies of their own software. |
| 18:19 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> wrong channel, please cease |
| 18:19 |
MTDiscord |
<Benrob0329> Anyways, as a note once the docs project matures a little bit more (give us a couple weeks to get our templates and formatting under wraps) if any core devs want to review our information for accuracy that'd be great :D |
| 18:19 |
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| 18:20 |
MTDiscord |
<Benrob0329> We do the best we can of course, but the actual devs are obviously the most familiar with the source code, especially when there is influence on an API from 3+ locations in the tree. |
| 18:21 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> I have already seen that Desour is lurking, sometimes dropping comments. |
| 18:22 |
MTDiscord |
<Benrob0329> Indeed |
| 18:27 |
rubenwardy |
Should Minetest only load from share/mods if the game is also in share? Or am I reading this wrong |
| 18:27 |
rubenwardy |
because that seems wrong |
| 18:28 |
celeron55 |
maybe |
| 18:29 |
celeron55 |
but i won't pretend i know how users are actually using share/mods :D |
| 18:30 |
rubenwardy |
subgames.cpp:110 |
| 18:32 |
rubenwardy |
I suspect this isn't tested much at all |
| 18:32 |
rubenwardy |
the mainmenu doesn't seem to support share mods |
| 18:34 |
celeron55 |
wait so there's already logic to avoid loading share/mods if the game is loaded from the user directory |
| 18:34 |
celeron55 |
and user/mods is loaded only if the game is loaded from the user directory |
| 18:35 |
celeron55 |
no |
| 18:35 |
rubenwardy |
user/mods is always loaded - see user!=share bit |
| 18:35 |
rubenwardy |
share/mods is only loaded if the game is in share/games |
| 18:35 |
celeron55 |
user/mods is loaded for any game, yes |
| 18:35 |
celeron55 |
i think these make sense |
| 18:36 |
rubenwardy |
I don't think so, I think it should always support both. But that's something for another PR |
| 18:36 |
rubenwardy |
I'd like to refactor and combine all this code. There's currently duplicates in C++ and Lua |
| 18:36 |
rubenwardy |
context: #11784 |
| 18:36 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11784 -- Use virtual paths to specify exact mod to enable by rubenwardy |
| 18:36 |
celeron55 |
well this logic does completely predate the main menu and probably any configurability in choosing mods in any way |
| 18:37 |
celeron55 |
initially all mods were always loaded |
| 18:37 |
rubenwardy |
yeah |
| 19:17 |
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| 19:29 |
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| 20:06 |
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| 20:07 |
sfan5 |
merging #11872, #11935 in 7m |
| 20:07 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11872 -- Fix damage wraparound if very high damage by Wuzzy2 |
| 20:07 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11935 -- Fix incorrect bit positions in paramtype documentation by aerkiaga |
| 20:09 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> sfan5: the damage wraparound might require more attention, thinking of exploitation attempts |
| 20:10 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> "This PR makes sure that the wraparound no longer occurs by switching to s32. While in theory that boundary can be exceeded as well, this scenario is too theoretical." Is it? What about cheating? |
| 20:11 |
sfan5 |
the TOSERVER_DAMAGE takes an u8, so this was never an issue even with the old code |
| 20:14 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> NVM, there is a rangelim included. Merge it. |
| 20:14 |
sfan5 |
the value can overflow before that |
| 20:14 |
sfan5 |
but for that you need a tool with level=999999 or whatever stupid |
| 20:15 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Are levels not s16? |
| 20:15 |
sfan5 |
? |
| 20:17 |
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lhofhansl joined #minetest-dev |
| 20:18 |
lhofhansl |
Just saw the share/games discussion in the logs. Wanted to mention my previous somewhat related efforts: #10426 |
| 20:18 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/10426 -- Handle world mods and world game mods in the config dialog. by lhofhansl |
| 20:18 |
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| 20:19 |
rubenwardy |
ah, interesting |
| 20:19 |
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| 20:20 |
rubenwardy |
this stuff should really use a tree rather than a bunch of random fields |
| 20:20 |
lhofhansl |
Yes. In general per game mods are very powerful, IMHO |
| 20:20 |
sfan5 |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pulls?q=is%3Apr+is%3Aopen+milestone%3A5.5.0 <<<< reviews please |
| 20:21 |
sfan5 |
and/or testing |
| 20:33 |
sfan5 |
for #11831 btw I plan to check if the implementation can't be made simpler but idk when I will have time do to that |
| 20:33 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11831 -- Don't go out of the map during raycast by savilli |
| 20:33 |
sfan5 |
also #11866, not essential but you'll have to live with erlehmann's complaints otherwise |
| 20:33 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11866 -- Raise max mapgen limit constant to align with MapBlock by sfan5 |
| 20:48 |
v-rob |
Do we need this code anymore? https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/src/util/string.h#L382-L416 |
| 20:49 |
rubenwardy |
no, as that's in C++11 |
| 20:51 |
sfan5 |
definitely not but maybe hold off with a cleanup as it looks we're going c++14 soon-ish |
| 20:51 |
rubenwardy |
:O |
| 20:51 |
rubenwardy |
also, disregard my second comment on the create game PR |
| 21:43 |
v-rob |
Left three comments on #11863, but otherwise looks good and works properly. |
| 21:43 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11863 -- Fully remove bitmap font support by sfan5 |
| 21:51 |
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| 21:52 |
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| 22:00 |
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| 22:06 |
sfan5 |
thanks, will check back tomorrow |
| 23:32 |
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