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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2021-07-06

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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01:08 v-rob kilbith: #10265 just needs a rebase and a review, that's all. I'll rebase.
01:08 v-rob specing: The only drawing API I can find for SpringRTS is a thin OpenGL wrapper, is that what you mean?
01:14 v-rob Oh, actually, #10265 has already been code reviewed by rubenwardy, so all it would need is for him to test it.
01:18 v-rob And, rebased
01:27 v-rob sfan5: why is #10738 a possible close? Because no progress on SDL is happening?
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07:34 sfan5 v-rob: there's no progress but more importantly most of the listed problems are already solved with IrrlichtMt
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10:59 pgimeno https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/10265 -- FormSpec: 9-slice images, animated_images, and fgimg_middle by v-rob
10:59 pgimeno #10265
11:00 pgimeno hmm
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17:12 Wuzzy #10810
17:12 pgimeno https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/10810 -- Split liquid_viscosity to liquid_viscosity and move_resistance by Wuzzy2
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18:07 ShadowNinja pgimeno: ShadowBot reconnected, but it wasn't auto-joining channels for some reason, I re-joined it.
18:10 sfan5 do we have any use for .dae files
18:10 sfan5 has anyone ever used them
18:11 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Im not sure how to answer that
18:12 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> I would love to use dae files, but afaik they arent supported
18:12 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> One of the features of dae is having separate model/skeleton/animation files that can be applied to each other dynamically, which would be a fantastic feature to support
18:16 sfan5 Irrlicht supports loading Collada
18:16 sfan5 but I'm not sure whether for scenes or meshes
18:16 sfan5 or both or idk
18:16 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Irrlicht supports a bunch of stuff but Minetest seems to only support a subset of that last I checked
18:18 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> According to https://wiki.minetest.net/Using_Blender, Irrlicht doesnt support any modern standards for animated models
18:18 sfan5 ah right we have a whitelist
18:18 sfan5 >".x", ".b3d", ".md2", ".obj",
18:19 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Honestly forgot md2 was supported
18:19 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> We should really be supporting collada though, as its one of the modern standards for models
18:19 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> x and b3d are both outdated and defunct
18:20 sfan5 I was just comtemplating deleting all code that deals with XML from IrrlichtMt
18:20 sfan5 that includes collada
18:20 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> I mean it wont be a loss as it stands, but we should really support collada in the future
18:21 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> All of our supported model formats but obj need to be dropped
18:21 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> They are a pain to deal with
18:22 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> X exporters are getting harder to come by, and eventually I wont be able to keep my b3d exporter up to date with Blender
18:22 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> and md2 is older than both of them
18:23 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Collada or Gltf2 support would be great
18:23 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> gltf would be neat, but it is contested as a standard
18:23 sfan5 we should rather have gltf and you know that old formats won't be removed
18:23 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> collada is easier to deal with, and exporters for it are well-made
18:24 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> I know old formats wont be removed, I just mean we shouldnt be relying on them
18:24 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> I've used gltf and the way it was handled sucked, I'd personally want to use collada
18:25 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Deprecating the old formats might not be a bad idea though, encourage mods to move to a newer format so that the code can eventually be removed
18:25 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Technically theyll be "removed" by way of no longer being exportable by 3d modelling software ;]
18:25 sfan5 >//! Meshloader capable of loading COLLADA meshes and scene descriptions into Irrlicht.
18:25 sfan5 okay looks like it can do meshes
18:26 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Huh, apparently collada is also by Khronos. TIL.
18:26 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> If we really wanted to pretty much not worry about mesh formats we could use something like Assimp, but that been shot down in the past for being a dependency
18:27 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> (iirc)
18:27 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Alright, I concede. We should support gltf.
18:27 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Nuke the XML code
18:27 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> (https://godotengine.org/article/we-should-all-use-gltf-20-export-3d-assets-game-engines)
18:28 sfan5 btw here's the mesh formats in the irrlicht source: 3DS B3D BSP Irr LMTS LWO MD2 MD3 MS3D MY3D OBJ Ogre PLY SMF STL X
18:28 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> The exporter argument doesnt work for either collada or gltf, since the collada exporter is supposedly incomplete/broken and the gltf exporter is WIP as of 4 years ago
18:28 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Irrlicht is a bit outdated
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18:29 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> half of those are long dead
18:30 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> And id argue PLY and STL, while still in regular use, arent fit for games
18:30 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Converting to a more suitable format is trivial anyway
18:32 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Looks like Blender gltf support is fine nowadays
18:36 sfan5 when did you last try it?
18:39 sfan5 irrlicht can load .dae but animations don't work, might as well use .obj then
18:39 sfan5 (with a default blender export of MTG character.blend that is)
18:41 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> That is what I said earlier
18:41 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Oh, well I thought it
18:41 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> but ended up saying "Irrlicht doesnt support any modern standards for animated models"
18:41 sfan5 ah no you did
18:42 sfan5 I merely tested it
18:42 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> I last used the Blender gltf exporter a few months ago, and it worked fine
18:42 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> It is actively developed
18:42 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> And there dont seem to be any notable missing features
18:43 sfan5 <GreenXenith> I've used gltf and the way it was handled sucked, I'd personally want to use collada
18:43 sfan5 when was that I meant
18:45 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Also a few months ago, and I was referring to how the engine I used handled it. I dont know if there is a different way to handle it, or maybe I just didnt get how it worked
18:45 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Its not your traditional "specify a path and youre done" thing
18:45 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Its all built on scenes and whatnot
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19:17 pgimeno ShadowNinja: thanks, disabled my workaround
19:34 pgimeno re models, Collada seems quite bloated to me, not good for server-sent models
19:34 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Yeah, gltf replaces it anyway
19:35 pgimeno IDK about gltf, I know about .obj and it's quite "pure" and straight to the point, except for the fact of being text
19:36 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> and not having animations of any sort
19:36 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> I like obj, don't get me wrong, but it's not useful for anything animated
19:37 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> (I wonder if you could use a file specific for animations though, like you can for material defs)
19:38 pgimeno animations are a different problem, I know of a certain 3D engine that uses IQM, it seems like a format to consider.
19:38 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Better to use well-established and supported standards
19:39 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Was just a curiosity, I still support ^
19:44 pgimeno IQM is compact, which is a plus for server-sent media https://github.com/lsalzman/iqm/blob/master/iqm.txt
19:46 sfan5 IQM is not one of the formats I saw blender have an exporter for
19:46 pgimeno https://github.com/excessive/iqm-exm#blender-exporter
19:47 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> There is a Blender exporter, but I dont trust a non-standard to stick around forever
19:47 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Looks like another B3D to me
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22:12 sfan5 just noticed that deleting XML from irrlicht also breaks the non-freetype fonts
22:12 sfan5 not a big loss I guess
22:18 sfan5 if we wanted it could be kept pretty easily by swapping out the fonts/mono_dejavu_sans_10.xml format for something simpler
22:41 specing v-rob: I actually can't find any GUI drawing api either, though I remember using it
22:42 specing v-rob: it's possible that it just uses opengl directly
22:43 specing v-rob: also https://springrts.com/wiki/Lua_Fonts & https://springrts.com/wiki/Chili
22:44 specing https://springrts.com/wiki/Chili:ScreenShots
22:44 specing ^ for everyone else, to see what's possible
22:49 specing v-rob: https://github.com/gajop/chiliui/blob/master/luaui/chili/chili/controls/progressbar.lua  at the bottom
22:49 v-rob Ah, OK, so it is OpenGL.
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22:50 v-rob I am fairly happy with my Lua drawing API as it is, at least for 2D.
22:52 specing I'd still advise to keeping it as close as possible to other games
22:52 specing so people don't have to learn twice, and you also don't have to work twice (and can just copy chili)
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23:41 v-rob Well, I can't copy Chili for a number of reasons, namely that SpringRTS is GPL and we're LGPL, but also because Chili's API isn't powerful enough for what the new GUI has to do. The bare necessities for the new GUI is: a) can do everything formspecs and the HUD do, but with a better API (since formspec strings and player HUD calls will be translated to the new GUI) and b) work over the network with a SSM API. Chili doesn't fulfil either requirement.
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23:43 v-rob Obviously, there's more to the new GUI than those two requirements, but it's a good way to weed out impossibilities, since nearly every existing GUI toolkit can't work with Minetest without significant changes to the toolkit.
23:47 specing Why stick to LGPL?
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23:55 v-rob Minetest's license is not something I have control over, and I'm fairly sure I can't just license an integrated part of the engine as GPL while everything else is LGPL.
23:55 specing Sure you can. The whole linked binary just becomes GPL
23:57 v-rob I still don't have the authority to make that choice alone.
23:57 v-rob Regardless of licensing, Chili simply isn't capable enough anyway.

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