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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2021-03-14

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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03:34 Sokomine ups: that is new: i965: Failed to submit batchbuffer: Bad address
03:34 Sokomine but in general it performed quite well up to this point. the world seemed to have loaded far better and possible view range better
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07:27 nerzhul it's why i think we really need to link MT with irrlicht statically, the conflict will happen now :D
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12:35 celeron55 i'm still thinking renaming the library would allow distributions to package MT's irrlicht separately if they insist on dynamic linking and separate packages
12:36 celeron55 i guess they can patch it themselves if they want to, but just something to keep in mind if we want to be nice
12:38 celeron55 it has been one of MTs advantages that it's easy to build and the build breaks very rarely on its own
12:40 celeron55 so either rename the library and build it dynamically, or make it easy to rename the library and build it dynamically
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13:28 sfan5 hmm yea that'd be good
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16:19 Wuzzy Out of curiosity: Did the act of forking Irrlicht fix any major or longstanding bugs in Minetest? Would be interesting to know. 🙂
16:21 sfan5 some input issues probably
16:21 Krock also macos rendering
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16:22 Wuzzy input issues? like the M key on macOS?
16:22 sfan5 like shift on macos
16:22 Wuzzy ooff. okay
16:23 sfan5 there's likely many other issues fixed but we don't know yet until users test it and say "oh hey <thing> works in 5.5.0-dev"
16:23 Wuzzy is there a GitHub label like "broken because of Irrlicht"? 😀
16:24 sfan5 we call that "Upstream issue"
16:24 Wuzzy ah
16:24 sfan5 (of course that includes more than just irrlicht issues)
16:24 Wuzzy such as?
16:25 sfan5 the luajit memory issue, broken graphics drivers, ...
16:25 Wuzzy i just tried to compile minetest with the new irrlicht fork, and it worked. but i needed to fool around with ccmake first, i think the readme could be still a bit friendlier on compile instructions
16:25 sfan5 by "the readme" you're referring to which?
16:25 Wuzzy minetest
16:26 Wuzzy but i think the minetest irrlicht readme also needs some love in genral, its very short and vague
16:26 Wuzzy for minetest irrlicht, i just guessed cmake, make and it worked 😆
16:27 sfan5 minetest's readme could use example instructions so people don't have to figure out IRRLICHT_LIBRARY and IRRLICHT_INCLUDE_DIR themselves
16:27 sfan5 but irrlicht's readme is fully complete, it even includes an example
16:27 Wuzzy oh right
16:28 Wuzzy my memory is really broken sometimes. i even looked at the readme...
16:28 MTDiscord <Jordach> Wuzzy: the only non functional key under M1 Mac is the apostrophe
16:28 MTDiscord <Jordach> shift and everything else works fine
16:28 MTDiscord <Jordach> i can use a quote "
16:28 MTDiscord <Jordach> not an apostrophe '
16:29 Wuzzy was this tested in latest dev version as well (i.e. wth irrlicht fork)? sfan5 suspects many bugs were "accidentally" fixed 😀
16:29 MTDiscord <Jordach> i can test that one min
16:31 MTDiscord <Jordach> recompiling library+mt
16:31 Wuzzy oh i remember now. my actual problem with the minetest irrlicht readme was that it doesnt really explain well what this thing is and what it does and why you need it. i think just saying "this is a fork of irrlicht" is too vague IMHO
16:31 Wuzzy I generally like readmes to answer the one crucial question: "WTF does this thing?" 😀
16:32 MTDiscord <Jordach> what was the uh -D command for irrlicht folder locaiton
16:32 MTDiscord <Jordach> oh right there
16:32 Wuzzy use ccmake 🙂
16:33 MTDiscord <Jordach> lemme uh launch cmake gui
16:33 pgimeno "contains features, customizations and fixes specifically for use in Minetest" is accurate enough, it can't name each customization and fix
16:33 Wuzzy i think you need IRRLICHT_INCLUDE_DIR, IRRLICHT_LIBRARY_DIR.
16:33 pgimeno (re https://github.com/minetest/irrlicht/blob/master/README.md )
16:33 Wuzzy IRRLICHT_LIBRARY... oops
16:34 Wuzzy "This is a fork of X" is not a complete description IMHO. Does not say what it *does*.
16:35 pgimeno so you expect it to contain a description of what Irrlicht is?
16:35 sfan5 "The Irrlicht Engine is an open source realtime 3D engine written in C++." this text i guess
16:35 Wuzzy let me think...
16:36 MTDiscord <Jordach> ah fuck, there's some deprecated shit in irrlicht_changes that needs to go
16:36 Wuzzy yeah it goes in the right direction, let me think a bit ...
16:39 MTDiscord <Jordach> sfan5, https://gist.github.com/Jordach/70bf8b3f9ca671c211778aa4fc59f9c0 on latest commit from minetest/minetest with irrlicht branch
16:40 sfan5 "irrlicht branch"?
16:40 MTDiscord <Jordach> well it's using the fork
16:40 sfan5 works here
16:41 MTDiscord <Jordach> eh i'll redownload it
16:41 MTDiscord <Jordach> the good old git way
16:42 Wuzzy Suggested description: "This is a fork of the Irrlicht Engine, an open source realtime 3D engine written in C++. It was created specifically for the Minetest project for rendering. It contains features, customizations and fixes specifically for use in Minetest."
16:46 Wuzzy By the way, the more i think about it, the more i think the irrlicht fork should be renamed. I have no idea how to install this lib in a non-awkward way because of the name "libIrrlicht.so", which clashes with the real Irrlicht, obviously.
16:46 sfan5 the answer to that would be not to install it system-wide
16:47 Wuzzy 🙁
16:47 MTDiscord <Jordach> there we go, compiled
16:47 Wuzzy I think it gets even funnier when Linux distros have to deal with it which also need to figure out how to deal with the name-clash...
16:47 MTDiscord <Jordach> the apostrophe doesn't work when using chat, but is recognised by formspecs
16:48 DS-minetest shouldn't distros just bundle out irrlicht together with minetest? it's unlikely that any other software will use our fork
16:48 sfan5 Wuzzy: you make a good point but I'm saying that you can avoid all trouble by linking it statically
16:48 DS-minetest s/out/our/
16:49 Wuzzy true. i'm not saying i can't work around the awkwardness, but its still super annoying to have this name-clash to begin with
16:50 MTDiscord <Jordach> just bundle it into minetest ;)
16:50 Wuzzy heh, thats also an option ...
16:50 MTDiscord <Jordach> like we already for for lua 5.1
16:51 Wuzzy hmmm that would simplify the build process as well
16:51 Wuzzy since you dont have to download 2 repos
16:52 Wuzzy do you approve of the suggested description above?
16:52 celeron55 what arguments are there for keeping the same name?
16:53 Wuzzy none so far 😀
16:53 celeron55 there are many arguments for changing it
16:53 Wuzzy YES!
16:53 celeron55 it needs to be changed if there's nothing to gain from keeping the name
16:53 Wuzzy oh finally. i thought i was talking against a brick wall. finally some agreement
16:53 pgimeno <celeron55> what arguments are there for keeping the same name?  <-- that no one has offered to bell that cat yet?
16:54 Wuzzy "MTIrrlicht" has been suggested. but i really dont care about the new name, as long its different. 🙂
16:55 celeron55 i'd say IrrMT
16:55 sfan5 Wuzzy: if you think the points I made are what a brick wall is like you must have misunderstood me
16:55 celeron55 it might be a bad idea to keep the full "irrlicht" in the name, it can cause confusion and could even be a trademark problem
16:56 Wuzzy it doesnt seem the name "Irrlicht" is trademarked tho
16:56 celeron55 trademarks are implied always
16:57 sfan5 did supertuxkart rename their fork?
16:57 Wuzzy Antarctica
16:57 DS-minetest call it ErrLight
16:57 Wuzzy wait, STK did fork Irrlicht, too?
16:57 DS-minetest Errlight*
16:58 Wuzzy anyway, the engine behind STK is called "Antarctica"
17:14 rubenwardy worth noting that STK includes Antarctica in their source code, not even statically or dynamically linked
17:15 MTDiscord <Jordach> that is what i alluded to earlier
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18:08 MTDiscord <IhrFussel> @Wuzzy Irrlicht was not specifically made for MT, but the description suggestion you gave earlier included that sentence
18:08 Wuzzy "It was created for ..." referring to the fork, not Irrlicht
18:09 Wuzzy but ok probably needs a rephrase then :/
18:10 MTDiscord <IhrFussel> No, I missed the "fork" part somehow...it's fine
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19:46 MTDiscord <exe_virus> Well, minetest is a voxel engine, and for now irrlicht is our graphics and input backend so perhaps we name it more like a underlying backend name?
19:46 MTDiscord <exe_virus> Dungeon?
19:47 MTDiscord <exe_virus> Shaft?
19:47 MTDiscord <exe_virus> bedrock
20:39 Krock irrtest
20:39 Krock naming convention solved
20:39 Krock !next
20:39 ShadowBot Another satisfied customer. Next!
20:39 rubenwardy I don't think it's worth giving a marketting name to it
20:40 DS-minetest What about "meinlicht", to keep it german?
20:41 DS-minetest (speaks minelicht)
20:41 rubenwardy apparently german for Mine is Mine
20:42 rubenwardy according to https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english-german/mine
20:42 rubenwardy not sure what the die is
20:42 rubenwardy die Mine! DIE
20:42 rubenwardy I shall see myself out
20:43 DS-minetest it's the article, like the the in english
20:43 MTDiscord <appguru> ^
20:44 DS-minetest for german mine it should be minenlicht, btw.
20:53 MTDiscord <appguru> Lichtmine :thonking:
20:59 freshreplicant[m Minelight = Lantern or (Laterne in German).
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23:03 MTDiscord <exe_virus> Okay so if no marketing name, then it should be as least mention irrlicht. So just mtirrlicht
23:03 MTDiscord <exe_virus> All lower case
23:04 MTDiscord <exe_virus> Easy for programmers to remember and type
23:04 sfan5 I was thinking IrrlichtMT so that the library would be libIrrlichtMt.so.1.9.0
23:05 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> That seems more reasonable
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