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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2021-01-26

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Time Nick Message
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06:32 nerzhul_ Krock, sfan5 irrlicht 1.9.0 is not stable and we don't know if it works properly for MT, and we don't know when it will be released. I'm more confident on the stable version with our changes and backports
06:53 nerzhul_ personnaly i'm not confident with it and with the only people maintaining it
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12:25 MTDiscord <e​xe_virus> This. At this point we are becoming better devs for irrlicht and minetest's engine than the ones doing 1.9.
12:26 Zughy[m] That I can't say, but we're definitely more reliable than them, as it's been years they've been working on 1.9
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14:35 MTDiscord <F​lamore> Mt is light speed active
14:35 MTDiscord <F​lamore> Irrlicht already stuck for a few years
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16:50 FelixActually Hi, I discussed this with celeron a little and he suggested I ask here about it. Would anyone object to starting to refer to Minetest as "libre software" rather than "open source"?
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16:57 Krock who refers to what? You cannot simply change everybody's mind. In addition to that, tech-illiterate people will only be more confused due to the unclear difference
16:58 FelixActually On the website
16:59 Krock in this case, please propose a PR to https://github.com/minetest/minetest.github.io/
16:59 Krock where it's easier to discuss this sort of terminology
16:59 FelixActually Since Microsoft took over Github I haven't been very eager to visit it :(
16:59 FelixActually Are we able to discuss it here?
17:00 Krock yes sure we can, but barely is active right now, and there would be a much larger audience on GitHub
17:00 Krock *but barely anyone
17:00 MTDiscord <J​onathon> personally i tihnk open source is better for a public facing website since more people know and understand open source
17:00 MTDiscord <a​ppguru> I don't see how "libre software" is any clearer than "open source"
17:00 FelixActually The text "An open source voxel game engine." under the heading could be changed to "An libre software voxel game engine. ('Libre' means that it gives you freedom: [Link to FSF page on free software])."
17:00 FelixActually *A libre
17:01 MTDiscord <a​ppguru> Doesn't sound well IMO
17:01 MTDiscord <J​onathon> you know something isnt good language when you have to explain it
17:01 FelixActually Same goes for "open source"... :)
17:02 FelixActually When most people see that term, they think "oh, I can view the code"
17:03 MTDiscord <a​ppguru> "Free and open source" if it is to be made more obvious
17:04 MTDiscord <J​onathon> ^ this
17:04 Krock in fact most people don't care and think it's the same as free software (as in no cost)
17:04 FelixActually But "free and open source" is redundant and makes people think "free" means "gratis"
17:04 Krock the ones who care about this are programmers and tech-savy people
17:06 MTDiscord <J​onathon> ^ yeah, and on a website that is pretty much for the public, you want it to be understandable to your target audience. i.e. the public
17:07 FelixActually Would you say my suggestion isn't understandable?
17:07 Krock more like nobody cares
17:07 Krock but it could be changed like that in theory
17:07 FelixActually Nobody cares because of the existence of the term "open source" to begin with :(
17:08 MTDiscord <J​onathon> its understandable to only a certain audience, not the general public
17:08 FelixActually But if they don't understand what's said they can visit the link to read more
17:09 MTDiscord <J​onathon> you only have someone attention for a short span of time, so you want to make it as simple as possible
17:10 MTDiscord <J​onathon> google it, the average attention span is now 8 seconds
17:10 FelixActually But if you simplify too much then you send the wrong message
17:11 MTDiscord <J​onathon> im not saying to simplify it, im saying not to over complicate it which is what you want to do
17:11 FelixActually "Open source" is an oversimplification is what I mean
17:12 FelixActually And like I said before, most people don't even know what it means to begin with anyway
17:12 MTDiscord <J​onathon> x. doubt
17:12 MTDiscord <J​onathon> more people have a idea of what open source is than libre software
17:12 Calinou I don't think there are plans to switch terms, sorry
17:13 Calinou source: I used to be a die hard free/libre activist, and then I took an arrow to the knee :P
17:13 freshreplicant[m The Minetest community is not really united behind the whole FOSS thing. For some it is incidental that Minetest is also libre/free software.
17:13 rubenwardy Minetest is pretty FOSS for an open source project though
17:13 FelixActually And that's why we're not making progress :(
17:13 rubenwardy I wouldn't say it's accurate that it's incidental
17:14 FelixActually As long as people keep saying "nobody knows what libre software means", it'll continue to be true because they're not using it and explaining it
17:14 FelixActually Is it not worth it to be more descriptive when it comes to something as important as freedom?
17:15 MTDiscord <J​onathon> well, open source kinda became the norm since there was nothing else to describe the field at the time and also got the most used
17:15 MTDiscord <J​onathon> the difference is now you have a term and are trying to change it
17:15 FelixActually What do you mean "nothing else to describe the field"?
17:16 MTDiscord <J​onathon> describe the concept of open source/libre software
17:16 FelixActually Are you asking me to or?
17:16 MTDiscord <J​onathon> im answering your question
17:17 FelixActually Huh? But the libre software movement came first
17:17 MTDiscord <J​onathon> anyways, if it is to be changed, i agree with LMD on "free and open source"
17:17 freshreplicant[m The project is FOSS for sure, but I mean the community itself is pretty split towards how important it is to endorse FOSS or adhere to it outside of Minetest, I guess.
17:19 rubenwardy I meant the community as well
17:19 FelixActually I just always wonder this when I talk to people who prefer "open source": Why would it be a bad thing to specify that libre software is about giving you freedom rather than 'brushing it under the rug'?
17:20 FelixActually Maybe people don't understand, but how can they if we keep sidestepping the issue in question?
17:21 FelixActually It's kind of like walking down a dark corridor with a bunch of rakes, so everyone gets hit in the face by a rake when they go down there, and instead of removing the rakes the entire corridor just gets closed off
17:22 celeron55 wait what 8)
17:22 FelixActually I'm no good at analogies :(
17:22 rubenwardy ok, one thing the community is divided over is how extreme to be when it comes to FOSS
17:23 FelixActually But is it "extreme" to talk about libre software and how it gives you freedom, or is it just the right thing to do?
17:23 FelixActually For people who don't understand why it's important, they'll just say "oh okay" and move on, but maybe it'll make some people think about it, and any change is better than none
17:24 MTDiscord <J​onathon> I agree with Ruben
17:25 celeron55 are we able to do A/B testing?
17:25 Krock rubenwardy: I think you meant FLOSS
17:25 celeron55 just make the website say different things and see how visitors react
17:26 rubenwardy I prefer libre software to open source as open source is confused with source-available. But open source is the term commonly used
17:26 FelixActually "Why does the text keep changing? What the hell?" :)
17:27 MTDiscord <J​onathon> ^this
17:27 FelixActually Also another wording could be "Minetest is a voxel game engine which is libre software (meaning it gives you freedom)."
17:27 celeron55 but i think, to most people, if you say "friendly reminder about FLOSS", it sounds like "friendly reminder about eating your veggies"
17:27 FelixActually Then "libre" doesn't need to be repeated
17:27 celeron55 it simply doesn't make you popular
17:28 MTDiscord <J​onathon> Also if you test within the minwtest Community then that means you'll get them or technology bias answer
17:28 MTDiscord <J​onathon> *minetest
17:28 celeron55 and we're all about being the cool kid on the block... i mean, a bit about
17:28 FelixActually Also you could always use a Wikipedia-style footnote
17:28 freshreplicant[m I agree with the FOSS philosophy but find it hard to adhere to. Still something to be said for the criticisms of the term open source. Enables things like 'Discord ❤️ Open Source' and similar campaigns/marketing.
17:28 FelixActually "... which is libre software[1]" and if you hover over the [1] it pops up test saying "meaning it gives you freedom"
17:29 FelixActually *text
17:29 FelixActually Why do you find it hard to adhere to replicant?
17:32 freshreplicant[m Network effect, groups and people I want to interact with are elsewhere.
17:32 rubenwardy for me it's the network effect + some software not having alternatives (ie: it's rare to find good game alternatives)
17:34 FelixActually I think the A/B test as celeron mentioned could be tried
17:34 freshreplicant[m The network effect part however is why I'm all for stating very clearly whether a project endorses or supports FOSS or just happens to be FOSS but remains agnostic about the philosophy.
17:37 freshreplicant[m The network effect is hard to combat without feeling isolated in the wider world, so ideally it would be easier to do so in the community built around a FOSS project.
17:40 celeron55 well, a fact is, MT endorses FOSS (not necessarily FSF, but FOSS for sure and is almost as strict about it as projects like Debian that people sometimes consider laughably adamant about it) and if people doen't perceive that from the website, then i think it's a reason to change the website just to give the proper idea
17:40 celeron55 i'm not sure how people perceive the website
17:40 FelixActually Do you think that referring to Minetest as libre software rather than open source would have a measurable impact on playerbase replicant?
17:41 FelixActually As in negatively
17:41 celeron55 (and by FOSS i mean FLOSS)
17:41 MTDiscord <J​onathon> A website change doesnt affect people inside unless its massive, more affects possible new players
17:42 celeron55 yeah that's what i mean, new people who come to the website should get the most accurate idea about what MT is, as fast as possible
17:42 FelixActually But why would they choose not to play if they saw the words "libre software" rather than "open source"?
17:43 celeron55 if open source makes them think MT is something else than what it actually is, then i'm voting for change
17:43 MTDiscord <L​one_Wolf> If the saw the words 'you should only use libre software (+? you idiot)'
17:43 FelixActually I'm certainly not suggesting that
17:43 FelixActually (Even though it's true :) )
17:44 MTDiscord <J​onathon> Id vote against that because you want it to be easily understandable
17:44 celeron55 to me personally "open source" is fine, i'll just check the license and go on... of course it would help if i could click or hover "open source" and get the info right awa
17:44 celeron55 y
17:44 FelixActually To be honest I don't think that a goal of "easily understandable" is possible with this type of thing
17:45 celeron55 a popup saying "FLOSS, mostly licensed under X and Y" would make sense
17:45 FelixActually "open source" is a popular buzz term, yes, but people don't really think about what it means
17:45 FelixActually And therefore which term is chosen, it's not easily understood
17:45 FelixActually Some concepts are more nuanced than language allows for
17:46 FelixActually At the very least "libre software" makes people think about it because they probably haven't heard the term before
17:46 FelixActually *whichever term
17:59 freshreplicant[m It'd be cool if the Matrix room was featured here too: https://www.minetest.net/get-involved/
17:59 pgimeno to me, libre software sounds a little bit like radical slang, especially given that 'libre' is not even an English word
17:59 rubenwardy freshreplicant[m: https://github.com/minetest/minetest.github.io/pull/224
17:59 FelixActually I feel like "libre software" is a better term than "free software" right now, because many can't escape "free as in zero price"
18:01 FelixActually And while Minetest is gratis, that's not what we're trying to point out :)
18:01 pgimeno I prefer free open source. Yes, free is ambiguous and suggests zero price. But one of the suggestions was to add a clarification. Why not put it in "free" instead of in "libre"? The clarification could read: "free as in freedom"
18:01 freshreplicant[m I agree with making the distinction there and not listing Discord.
18:01 MTDiscord <L​one_Wolf> 😠
18:02 MTDiscord <J​onathon> So we shouldnt list reddit by that logic either?
18:03 FelixActually I just don't really like the term "open source" at all; I don't consider it necessary and (at least to me) its usage has the subtle implication of  "we don't *really* care, we're just using this software development method because it makes us look like we care"
18:03 MTDiscord <L​one_Wolf> Just put it in a different category, list libre stuff first
18:03 pgimeno free software works for me
18:04 FelixActually If it were to be referred to as free software it would be important for the distinction to be clearly noted in brackets after it then
18:04 pgimeno "A free software voxel game engine"
18:05 FelixActually In fact, two things:
18:05 FelixActually "A free software (free as in freedom) voxel game engine" plus linking "free software" to the Wikipedia page
18:05 pgimeno if you put that you can omit "software"
18:05 pgimeno "A free (as in freedom) voxel game engine"
18:06 FelixActually How about "free as in freedom" without brackets?
18:06 FelixActually And linking the entire "free as in freedom" to the Wikipedia free software article
18:06 rubenwardy we don't need to use words to show we care, our actions should
18:06 MTDiscord <J​onathon> ^
18:07 FelixActually Both are important; you could of course have an unethical project which calls itself free software
18:07 rubenwardy I would have prefered that OSI used a less ambigious term, but "open source" is the most recognisable term we have
18:08 pgimeno to me "free software" is as understandable as "open source" and does not have the same "zero price" connotation
18:08 pgimeno that's why I suggested "A free software voxel game engine"
18:08 FelixActually Most people would consider free software to mean gratis
18:08 celeron55 rubenwardy: oh i guess i should review this
18:08 FelixActually I think that "free as in freedom" is the best choice of wording
18:09 pgimeno "A free voxel game engine" <-- ambiguous
18:09 pgimeno "A free voxel game engine" <-- not so ambiguous
18:09 FelixActually And then in the features section have the "open source" heading changed to "free software"
18:09 pgimeno oops
18:09 pgimeno "A free software voxel game engine" <-- not so ambiguous
18:10 FelixActually "The engine is free software, meaning you have "the four essential freedoms" with the software: (link to FSF page). Submit an issue for features you'd like or bugs you've caught, or get a copy of the source code to make changes yourself."
18:12 FelixActually Alternatively
18:13 FelixActually "The engine is free software, meaning you have the freedom to run, copy, distribute, study, change and improve the software [link to FSF page spanning from "the freedom" to the end of the sentence].  Submit an issue for features you'd like or bugs you've caught, or get a copy of the source code to make changes yourself."
18:15 pgimeno "free software" suggests the Free Software Foundation. The FSF is not called the Free as in Freedom Software Foundation, nor the Libre Software Foundation. I really think that "free software" is a good replacement for "open source" without going too radical.
18:15 FelixActually The "free as in freedom" text could link to the free software heading in the features section
18:16 FelixActually Then it would have more clarity while also giving more information which has the context of the clarity at the top of the page
18:17 FelixActually So people understand what's meant at the top of the page, while having the option to read more in the features section
18:19 FelixActually Also pgimeno: The motto of the FSF is actually "free as in freedom" so I don't think it should be too big of an issue
18:28 MTDiscord <e​xe_virus> Does the engine have bit operations exposed to lua?
18:29 Krock no it doesn't, but IIRC there's a "bit" library for LuaJIT (only)
18:32 Zughy[m] my two cents: free software is the best choice. Also, "open source" as a term was coined because employers wasn't happy to hear "free", so they basically removed the philosophical aspect to sell it
18:32 Zughy[m] we're not a company :^]
18:34 FelixActually Was that the reason? I thought they just didn't like the ethical implications, rather than believing it referred to price
18:35 MTDiscord <e​xe_virus> While there is* a luaJIT bit library, we aren't allowed to access it. I did a require and minetest errors because I tried accessing it
18:35 FelixActually They wanted the benefits of free software (others working on their code without getting paid) without the "downsides" (people realising that freedom is as important in computing as in real life)
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21:44 pgimeno I think rubenwardy was working on a secure 'require' replacement - maybe bit could be made available
21:45 pgimeno otherwise there's always the possibility to request an insecure environment
21:46 pgimeno 'bit' is another reason for dropping Lua support in favour of LuaJIT
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21:49 sfan5 'bit' is not exclusive to LuaJIT, so no, that's not a reason
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22:25 Pharsalos Well thank you Jonathon for your support
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