| Time |
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Message |
| 01:39 |
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| 06:32 |
nerzhul_ |
Krock, sfan5 irrlicht 1.9.0 is not stable and we don't know if it works properly for MT, and we don't know when it will be released. I'm more confident on the stable version with our changes and backports |
| 06:53 |
nerzhul_ |
personnaly i'm not confident with it and with the only people maintaining it |
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| 12:25 |
MTDiscord |
<exe_virus> This. At this point we are becoming better devs for irrlicht and minetest's engine than the ones doing 1.9. |
| 12:26 |
Zughy[m] |
That I can't say, but we're definitely more reliable than them, as it's been years they've been working on 1.9 |
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| 14:35 |
MTDiscord |
<Flamore> Mt is light speed active |
| 14:35 |
MTDiscord |
<Flamore> Irrlicht already stuck for a few years |
| 14:46 |
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| 16:38 |
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| 16:49 |
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| 16:50 |
FelixActually |
Hi, I discussed this with celeron a little and he suggested I ask here about it. Would anyone object to starting to refer to Minetest as "libre software" rather than "open source"? |
| 16:54 |
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| 16:57 |
Krock |
who refers to what? You cannot simply change everybody's mind. In addition to that, tech-illiterate people will only be more confused due to the unclear difference |
| 16:58 |
FelixActually |
On the website |
| 16:59 |
Krock |
in this case, please propose a PR to https://github.com/minetest/minetest.github.io/ |
| 16:59 |
Krock |
where it's easier to discuss this sort of terminology |
| 16:59 |
FelixActually |
Since Microsoft took over Github I haven't been very eager to visit it :( |
| 16:59 |
FelixActually |
Are we able to discuss it here? |
| 17:00 |
Krock |
yes sure we can, but barely is active right now, and there would be a much larger audience on GitHub |
| 17:00 |
Krock |
*but barely anyone |
| 17:00 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> personally i tihnk open source is better for a public facing website since more people know and understand open source |
| 17:00 |
MTDiscord |
<appguru> I don't see how "libre software" is any clearer than "open source" |
| 17:00 |
FelixActually |
The text "An open source voxel game engine." under the heading could be changed to "An libre software voxel game engine. ('Libre' means that it gives you freedom: [Link to FSF page on free software])." |
| 17:00 |
FelixActually |
*A libre |
| 17:01 |
MTDiscord |
<appguru> Doesn't sound well IMO |
| 17:01 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> you know something isnt good language when you have to explain it |
| 17:01 |
FelixActually |
Same goes for "open source"... :) |
| 17:02 |
FelixActually |
When most people see that term, they think "oh, I can view the code" |
| 17:03 |
MTDiscord |
<appguru> "Free and open source" if it is to be made more obvious |
| 17:04 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> ^ this |
| 17:04 |
Krock |
in fact most people don't care and think it's the same as free software (as in no cost) |
| 17:04 |
FelixActually |
But "free and open source" is redundant and makes people think "free" means "gratis" |
| 17:04 |
Krock |
the ones who care about this are programmers and tech-savy people |
| 17:06 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> ^ yeah, and on a website that is pretty much for the public, you want it to be understandable to your target audience. i.e. the public |
| 17:07 |
FelixActually |
Would you say my suggestion isn't understandable? |
| 17:07 |
Krock |
more like nobody cares |
| 17:07 |
Krock |
but it could be changed like that in theory |
| 17:07 |
FelixActually |
Nobody cares because of the existence of the term "open source" to begin with :( |
| 17:08 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> its understandable to only a certain audience, not the general public |
| 17:08 |
FelixActually |
But if they don't understand what's said they can visit the link to read more |
| 17:09 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> you only have someone attention for a short span of time, so you want to make it as simple as possible |
| 17:10 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> google it, the average attention span is now 8 seconds |
| 17:10 |
FelixActually |
But if you simplify too much then you send the wrong message |
| 17:11 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> im not saying to simplify it, im saying not to over complicate it which is what you want to do |
| 17:11 |
FelixActually |
"Open source" is an oversimplification is what I mean |
| 17:12 |
FelixActually |
And like I said before, most people don't even know what it means to begin with anyway |
| 17:12 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> x. doubt |
| 17:12 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> more people have a idea of what open source is than libre software |
| 17:12 |
Calinou |
I don't think there are plans to switch terms, sorry |
| 17:13 |
Calinou |
source: I used to be a die hard free/libre activist, and then I took an arrow to the knee :P |
| 17:13 |
freshreplicant[m |
The Minetest community is not really united behind the whole FOSS thing. For some it is incidental that Minetest is also libre/free software. |
| 17:13 |
rubenwardy |
Minetest is pretty FOSS for an open source project though |
| 17:13 |
FelixActually |
And that's why we're not making progress :( |
| 17:13 |
rubenwardy |
I wouldn't say it's accurate that it's incidental |
| 17:14 |
FelixActually |
As long as people keep saying "nobody knows what libre software means", it'll continue to be true because they're not using it and explaining it |
| 17:14 |
FelixActually |
Is it not worth it to be more descriptive when it comes to something as important as freedom? |
| 17:15 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> well, open source kinda became the norm since there was nothing else to describe the field at the time and also got the most used |
| 17:15 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> the difference is now you have a term and are trying to change it |
| 17:15 |
FelixActually |
What do you mean "nothing else to describe the field"? |
| 17:16 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> describe the concept of open source/libre software |
| 17:16 |
FelixActually |
Are you asking me to or? |
| 17:16 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> im answering your question |
| 17:17 |
FelixActually |
Huh? But the libre software movement came first |
| 17:17 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> anyways, if it is to be changed, i agree with LMD on "free and open source" |
| 17:17 |
freshreplicant[m |
The project is FOSS for sure, but I mean the community itself is pretty split towards how important it is to endorse FOSS or adhere to it outside of Minetest, I guess. |
| 17:19 |
rubenwardy |
I meant the community as well |
| 17:19 |
FelixActually |
I just always wonder this when I talk to people who prefer "open source": Why would it be a bad thing to specify that libre software is about giving you freedom rather than 'brushing it under the rug'? |
| 17:20 |
FelixActually |
Maybe people don't understand, but how can they if we keep sidestepping the issue in question? |
| 17:21 |
FelixActually |
It's kind of like walking down a dark corridor with a bunch of rakes, so everyone gets hit in the face by a rake when they go down there, and instead of removing the rakes the entire corridor just gets closed off |
| 17:22 |
celeron55 |
wait what 8) |
| 17:22 |
FelixActually |
I'm no good at analogies :( |
| 17:22 |
rubenwardy |
ok, one thing the community is divided over is how extreme to be when it comes to FOSS |
| 17:23 |
FelixActually |
But is it "extreme" to talk about libre software and how it gives you freedom, or is it just the right thing to do? |
| 17:23 |
FelixActually |
For people who don't understand why it's important, they'll just say "oh okay" and move on, but maybe it'll make some people think about it, and any change is better than none |
| 17:24 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> I agree with Ruben |
| 17:25 |
celeron55 |
are we able to do A/B testing? |
| 17:25 |
Krock |
rubenwardy: I think you meant FLOSS |
| 17:25 |
celeron55 |
just make the website say different things and see how visitors react |
| 17:26 |
rubenwardy |
I prefer libre software to open source as open source is confused with source-available. But open source is the term commonly used |
| 17:26 |
FelixActually |
"Why does the text keep changing? What the hell?" :) |
| 17:27 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> ^this |
| 17:27 |
FelixActually |
Also another wording could be "Minetest is a voxel game engine which is libre software (meaning it gives you freedom)." |
| 17:27 |
celeron55 |
but i think, to most people, if you say "friendly reminder about FLOSS", it sounds like "friendly reminder about eating your veggies" |
| 17:27 |
FelixActually |
Then "libre" doesn't need to be repeated |
| 17:27 |
celeron55 |
it simply doesn't make you popular |
| 17:28 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> Also if you test within the minwtest Community then that means you'll get them or technology bias answer |
| 17:28 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> *minetest |
| 17:28 |
celeron55 |
and we're all about being the cool kid on the block... i mean, a bit about |
| 17:28 |
FelixActually |
Also you could always use a Wikipedia-style footnote |
| 17:28 |
freshreplicant[m |
I agree with the FOSS philosophy but find it hard to adhere to. Still something to be said for the criticisms of the term open source. Enables things like 'Discord ❤️ Open Source' and similar campaigns/marketing. |
| 17:28 |
FelixActually |
"... which is libre software[1]" and if you hover over the [1] it pops up test saying "meaning it gives you freedom" |
| 17:29 |
FelixActually |
*text |
| 17:29 |
FelixActually |
Why do you find it hard to adhere to replicant? |
| 17:32 |
freshreplicant[m |
Network effect, groups and people I want to interact with are elsewhere. |
| 17:32 |
rubenwardy |
for me it's the network effect + some software not having alternatives (ie: it's rare to find good game alternatives) |
| 17:34 |
FelixActually |
I think the A/B test as celeron mentioned could be tried |
| 17:34 |
freshreplicant[m |
The network effect part however is why I'm all for stating very clearly whether a project endorses or supports FOSS or just happens to be FOSS but remains agnostic about the philosophy. |
| 17:37 |
freshreplicant[m |
The network effect is hard to combat without feeling isolated in the wider world, so ideally it would be easier to do so in the community built around a FOSS project. |
| 17:40 |
celeron55 |
well, a fact is, MT endorses FOSS (not necessarily FSF, but FOSS for sure and is almost as strict about it as projects like Debian that people sometimes consider laughably adamant about it) and if people doen't perceive that from the website, then i think it's a reason to change the website just to give the proper idea |
| 17:40 |
celeron55 |
i'm not sure how people perceive the website |
| 17:40 |
FelixActually |
Do you think that referring to Minetest as libre software rather than open source would have a measurable impact on playerbase replicant? |
| 17:41 |
FelixActually |
As in negatively |
| 17:41 |
celeron55 |
(and by FOSS i mean FLOSS) |
| 17:41 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> A website change doesnt affect people inside unless its massive, more affects possible new players |
| 17:42 |
celeron55 |
yeah that's what i mean, new people who come to the website should get the most accurate idea about what MT is, as fast as possible |
| 17:42 |
FelixActually |
But why would they choose not to play if they saw the words "libre software" rather than "open source"? |
| 17:43 |
celeron55 |
if open source makes them think MT is something else than what it actually is, then i'm voting for change |
| 17:43 |
MTDiscord |
<Lone_Wolf> If the saw the words 'you should only use libre software (+? you idiot)' |
| 17:43 |
FelixActually |
I'm certainly not suggesting that |
| 17:43 |
FelixActually |
(Even though it's true :) ) |
| 17:44 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> Id vote against that because you want it to be easily understandable |
| 17:44 |
celeron55 |
to me personally "open source" is fine, i'll just check the license and go on... of course it would help if i could click or hover "open source" and get the info right awa |
| 17:44 |
celeron55 |
y |
| 17:44 |
FelixActually |
To be honest I don't think that a goal of "easily understandable" is possible with this type of thing |
| 17:45 |
celeron55 |
a popup saying "FLOSS, mostly licensed under X and Y" would make sense |
| 17:45 |
FelixActually |
"open source" is a popular buzz term, yes, but people don't really think about what it means |
| 17:45 |
FelixActually |
And therefore which term is chosen, it's not easily understood |
| 17:45 |
FelixActually |
Some concepts are more nuanced than language allows for |
| 17:46 |
FelixActually |
At the very least "libre software" makes people think about it because they probably haven't heard the term before |
| 17:46 |
FelixActually |
*whichever term |
| 17:59 |
freshreplicant[m |
It'd be cool if the Matrix room was featured here too: https://www.minetest.net/get-involved/ |
| 17:59 |
pgimeno |
to me, libre software sounds a little bit like radical slang, especially given that 'libre' is not even an English word |
| 17:59 |
rubenwardy |
freshreplicant[m: https://github.com/minetest/minetest.github.io/pull/224 |
| 17:59 |
FelixActually |
I feel like "libre software" is a better term than "free software" right now, because many can't escape "free as in zero price" |
| 18:01 |
FelixActually |
And while Minetest is gratis, that's not what we're trying to point out :) |
| 18:01 |
pgimeno |
I prefer free open source. Yes, free is ambiguous and suggests zero price. But one of the suggestions was to add a clarification. Why not put it in "free" instead of in "libre"? The clarification could read: "free as in freedom" |
| 18:01 |
freshreplicant[m |
I agree with making the distinction there and not listing Discord. |
| 18:01 |
MTDiscord |
<Lone_Wolf> ? |
| 18:02 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> So we shouldnt list reddit by that logic either? |
| 18:03 |
FelixActually |
I just don't really like the term "open source" at all; I don't consider it necessary and (at least to me) its usage has the subtle implication of "we don't *really* care, we're just using this software development method because it makes us look like we care" |
| 18:03 |
MTDiscord |
<Lone_Wolf> Just put it in a different category, list libre stuff first |
| 18:03 |
pgimeno |
free software works for me |
| 18:04 |
FelixActually |
If it were to be referred to as free software it would be important for the distinction to be clearly noted in brackets after it then |
| 18:04 |
pgimeno |
"A free software voxel game engine" |
| 18:05 |
FelixActually |
In fact, two things: |
| 18:05 |
FelixActually |
"A free software (free as in freedom) voxel game engine" plus linking "free software" to the Wikipedia page |
| 18:05 |
pgimeno |
if you put that you can omit "software" |
| 18:05 |
pgimeno |
"A free (as in freedom) voxel game engine" |
| 18:06 |
FelixActually |
How about "free as in freedom" without brackets? |
| 18:06 |
FelixActually |
And linking the entire "free as in freedom" to the Wikipedia free software article |
| 18:06 |
rubenwardy |
we don't need to use words to show we care, our actions should |
| 18:06 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> ^ |
| 18:07 |
FelixActually |
Both are important; you could of course have an unethical project which calls itself free software |
| 18:07 |
rubenwardy |
I would have prefered that OSI used a less ambigious term, but "open source" is the most recognisable term we have |
| 18:08 |
pgimeno |
to me "free software" is as understandable as "open source" and does not have the same "zero price" connotation |
| 18:08 |
pgimeno |
that's why I suggested "A free software voxel game engine" |
| 18:08 |
FelixActually |
Most people would consider free software to mean gratis |
| 18:08 |
celeron55 |
rubenwardy: oh i guess i should review this |
| 18:08 |
FelixActually |
I think that "free as in freedom" is the best choice of wording |
| 18:09 |
pgimeno |
"A free voxel game engine" <-- ambiguous |
| 18:09 |
pgimeno |
"A free voxel game engine" <-- not so ambiguous |
| 18:09 |
FelixActually |
And then in the features section have the "open source" heading changed to "free software" |
| 18:09 |
pgimeno |
oops |
| 18:09 |
pgimeno |
"A free software voxel game engine" <-- not so ambiguous |
| 18:10 |
FelixActually |
"The engine is free software, meaning you have "the four essential freedoms" with the software: (link to FSF page). Submit an issue for features you'd like or bugs you've caught, or get a copy of the source code to make changes yourself." |
| 18:12 |
FelixActually |
Alternatively |
| 18:13 |
FelixActually |
"The engine is free software, meaning you have the freedom to run, copy, distribute, study, change and improve the software [link to FSF page spanning from "the freedom" to the end of the sentence]. Submit an issue for features you'd like or bugs you've caught, or get a copy of the source code to make changes yourself." |
| 18:15 |
pgimeno |
"free software" suggests the Free Software Foundation. The FSF is not called the Free as in Freedom Software Foundation, nor the Libre Software Foundation. I really think that "free software" is a good replacement for "open source" without going too radical. |
| 18:15 |
FelixActually |
The "free as in freedom" text could link to the free software heading in the features section |
| 18:16 |
FelixActually |
Then it would have more clarity while also giving more information which has the context of the clarity at the top of the page |
| 18:17 |
FelixActually |
So people understand what's meant at the top of the page, while having the option to read more in the features section |
| 18:19 |
FelixActually |
Also pgimeno: The motto of the FSF is actually "free as in freedom" so I don't think it should be too big of an issue |
| 18:28 |
MTDiscord |
<exe_virus> Does the engine have bit operations exposed to lua? |
| 18:29 |
Krock |
no it doesn't, but IIRC there's a "bit" library for LuaJIT (only) |
| 18:32 |
Zughy[m] |
my two cents: free software is the best choice. Also, "open source" as a term was coined because employers wasn't happy to hear "free", so they basically removed the philosophical aspect to sell it |
| 18:32 |
Zughy[m] |
we're not a company :^] |
| 18:34 |
FelixActually |
Was that the reason? I thought they just didn't like the ethical implications, rather than believing it referred to price |
| 18:35 |
MTDiscord |
<exe_virus> While there is* a luaJIT bit library, we aren't allowed to access it. I did a require and minetest errors because I tried accessing it |
| 18:35 |
FelixActually |
They wanted the benefits of free software (others working on their code without getting paid) without the "downsides" (people realising that freedom is as important in computing as in real life) |
| 18:36 |
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| 21:44 |
pgimeno |
I think rubenwardy was working on a secure 'require' replacement - maybe bit could be made available |
| 21:45 |
pgimeno |
otherwise there's always the possibility to request an insecure environment |
| 21:46 |
pgimeno |
'bit' is another reason for dropping Lua support in favour of LuaJIT |
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| 21:49 |
sfan5 |
'bit' is not exclusive to LuaJIT, so no, that's not a reason |
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| 22:25 |
Pharsalos |
Well thank you Jonathon for your support |
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