| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 01:25 |
MTDiscord |
<srinivas> hi, is it useful/possible to add in full html + css + js support for minetest formspecs... so formspecs become easier to write, and cient side... |
| 01:30 |
lhofhansl |
I think so, but that seem to be a major undertaking. |
| 01:31 |
lhofhansl |
And the js part... Probably not. Another language interpreter just for this? |
| 03:03 |
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| 04:16 |
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| 05:00 |
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| 06:04 |
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| 07:31 |
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| 08:00 |
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| 08:17 |
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| 08:17 |
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| 10:13 |
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| 10:16 |
MTDiscord |
<IhrFussel> Isn't there already the 'style' formspec element which allows css kinda? |
| 10:16 |
rubenwardy |
It's not really CSS, and it's not full HTML/Js |
| 10:17 |
rubenwardy |
Full HTML/JS would probably 30x the download size of Minetest, would be crazy |
| 10:19 |
MTDiscord |
<IhrFussel> In what areas is Js better than Lua though? |
| 10:20 |
rubenwardy |
Loads |
| 10:21 |
rubenwardy |
But in this case, it's the use of JS that's important |
| 10:21 |
rubenwardy |
JS is used in the web to manipulate the DOM and implement interactive GUIs |
| 10:22 |
rubenwardy |
Lua can be made to do the same thing in Minetest - but the point of the HTML/JS suggestion was to use existing tech |
| 10:23 |
rubenwardy |
The DOM is the GUI éléments in a webpage |
| 10:23 |
rubenwardy |
Lol, English/French keyboard sabotages me |
| 10:24 |
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| 10:25 |
MTDiscord |
<IhrFussel> But our formspecs aren't even remotely close to being DOM elements I'd say |
| 11:04 |
rubenwardy |
Which is why HTML/JS was suggested |
| 11:05 |
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| 11:52 |
hecks |
the day Minetest actually uses JS alongside Lua in one executable is the day I declare it a clown engine |
| 11:58 |
MTDiscord |
<appguru> heh |
| 11:58 |
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| 11:59 |
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| 11:59 |
MTDiscord |
<appguru> Seeing as we are already developing our own markup (formspecs) and styles (formspec styling), we probably shouldn't move to web stuff |
| 11:59 |
MTDiscord |
<appguru> Extending that with Lua would be nice, but should probably be left to SSCSM |
| 12:00 |
rubenwardy |
formspecs should be deprecated at some point |
| 12:00 |
MTDiscord |
<appguru> yeah |
| 12:02 |
hecks |
that point might be SSCSM with gui |
| 12:03 |
hecks |
if you solve hud, you also solve forms |
| 12:03 |
hecks |
and if someone really wants to use HTML, they can make a wrapper for that |
| 12:03 |
hecks |
until then, forms aren't that bad |
| 12:04 |
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| 12:05 |
hecks |
at least not bad enough to pull in an entire web browser, and let me tell you, those things usually suck |
| 12:06 |
hecks |
every time a game pulls in a chromium process or something as a lazy solution for GUI, it causes nothing but trouble |
| 12:06 |
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| 12:08 |
hecks |
in some cases it outright caused crash bugs, like with Quake Live (which was just fine before the awesomiumprocess nonsense) |
| 12:10 |
Wuzzy |
I doubt JS will ever be added. Which is good. Fuck JS! ? |
| 12:10 |
Wuzzy |
btw |
| 12:10 |
Wuzzy |
#10693 |
| 12:10 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/10693 -- Builtin translate (2nd attempt) by Wuzzy2 |
| 12:10 |
hecks |
yeah, I kinda meant to say the same, just very politely |
| 12:10 |
hecks |
we already have a perfectly good VM available |
| 12:17 |
rubenwardy |
I like JS, but pulling in a web browser is crazy and Lua can already fulfill JS's purpose on the client |
| 12:19 |
MTDiscord |
<appguru> We have to develop (or use) a proper GUI library for both HUD & dialogs (formspecs) |
| 12:19 |
pmp-p |
an html5canvas emulator + a minimal js engine would not be that bad for very complex UI |
| 12:19 |
MTDiscord |
<appguru> HTML bad |
| 12:20 |
MTDiscord |
<appguru> JS bad |
| 12:20 |
MTDiscord |
<appguru> CSS bad |
| 12:20 |
MTDiscord |
<appguru> the only reason for using these is that they are "standard" |
| 12:20 |
MTDiscord |
<appguru> Well, modern JS isn't even that bad, but not minimal either |
| 12:22 |
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| 12:22 |
hecks |
I would argue with the "not that bad" part, see above, this stuff isn't very high quality |
| 12:22 |
hecks |
Lua is a similar enough language that it shouldn't be harder to manipulate a DOM or whatever with it |
| 12:23 |
hecks |
so the only reason you could ever have to literally use JS is to pull in JS dependencies - and the uses for this I can think of tell me that this idea shouldn't even be touched with a 100 foot stick |
| 12:23 |
pmp-p |
hecks: sure but i doubt you'll with complete ui toolkit for canvas like zebkit/zebra in lua |
| 12:23 |
pmp-p |
-with +find |
| 12:24 |
hecks |
someone's gonna make one eventually |
| 12:24 |
hecks |
I'll just roll my own |
| 12:24 |
MTDiscord |
<appguru> ^ |
| 12:25 |
hecks |
and having to audit and sandbox not one but *two* VMs handling code sent from the server stinks badly |
| 12:25 |
hecks |
just having two competing VMs stinks enough |
| 12:25 |
MTDiscord |
<appguru> https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6527 |
| 12:25 |
pmp-p |
*that* is a very good argument over "use the standards" |
| 12:26 |
hecks |
you speak as if the available JS tools are built for quality, and not to push corporate products out the door |
| 12:26 |
MTDiscord |
<appguru> TBH I like Flutter's approach |
| 12:26 |
pmp-p |
+1 for dart+flutter |
| 12:26 |
hecks |
see the part about games crashing or bugging out when they start bundling this stuff - the whole point of that is cutting costs |
| 12:26 |
pmp-p |
(i hate js) |
| 12:27 |
MTDiscord |
<appguru> We obviously can't bundle Dart & Flutter with Minetest though |
| 12:27 |
MTDiscord |
<appguru> So we'd have to take some inspiration from it and roll our own |
| 12:27 |
hecks |
a gui toolkit is nice to have but not mandatory if you have input and rendering |
| 12:28 |
MTDiscord |
<appguru> And SSCSM |
| 12:31 |
hecks |
to all devs: can we talk about that shadow mapping branch Liso is working on? |
| 12:32 |
hecks |
I'd really like some kind of confirmation that it won't be merged without safety brakes on it |
| 12:32 |
sfan5 |
you mean the server should be able to forbid the client from using it? |
| 12:32 |
hecks |
exactly |
| 12:33 |
hecks |
I mean, not the server - the game more specifically |
| 12:33 |
hecks |
so not a .conf entry but an api call |
| 12:33 |
sfan5 |
same thing in the end |
| 12:33 |
MTDiscord |
<appguru> why not allow server-sent conf entries? |
| 12:34 |
hecks |
it would be the same thing for me, but for everyone else, a .conf flag would be inferior |
| 12:35 |
hecks |
although okay, games can come with .conf |
| 12:35 |
sfan5 |
work to allow games/mods to better control visual features the client has (or doesn't) is still outstanding so I'd say in this state a shadow mapping feature would be merged *without* the feature you desire |
| 12:35 |
sfan5 |
but you're correct that as an engine Minetest should provide this |
| 12:36 |
hecks |
well, the server can already control stuff like the skybox |
| 12:36 |
hecks |
there are actually reasons to give it a similar API - you want to disable the sunlight shadow in caves or in other situations to save performance |
| 12:37 |
hecks |
per-object flags are very desirable too, some things do not deserve or outright shouldn't have a shadow |
| 12:38 |
hecks |
imagine an explosion, flame or smoke effect implemented as an objectref, you'd want that to have casting and receiving both off |
| 12:38 |
MTDiscord |
<appguru> does it even work in caves? |
| 12:38 |
sfan5 |
what do you mean by "work"? |
| 12:38 |
MTDiscord |
<appguru> display proper shadows emitted by other light sources |
| 12:39 |
sfan5 |
to my knowledge the shadow mapping implementation is for the sun only |
| 12:39 |
MTDiscord |
<appguru> :/ |
| 12:40 |
hecks |
yup, that's the only source of it, which is why it's a good idea to toggle it off entirely if you know a player is inside a cave or in some other place without sunlight |
| 12:41 |
hecks |
and only the game has the knowledge to do that for sure |
| 12:42 |
hecks |
in any case, I want at least an off switch for this |
| 12:42 |
hecks |
there is precedent for that in the form of CSM flags |
| 12:43 |
hecks |
and API functions to toggle stuff are also common - doing this once per player on login I can deal with |
| 12:44 |
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| 12:45 |
hecks |
so, how about it, can I have some assurance that #9374 won't repeat itself and I won't have to yell at anyone? |
| 12:45 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/9374 -- Basic model shading by dcbrwn |
| 12:57 |
sfan5 |
it certainly won't because none of the defaults are going to change |
| 12:57 |
celeron55 |
i agree with hecks, any kind of shading is an artistic decision especially when coming from originally having no shading at all |
| 12:57 |
hecks |
thank you |
| 12:58 |
hecks |
I'd really like to just focus on making my game and not having to constantly contest features that could break it. |
| 12:59 |
celeron55 |
i probably won't be policing this in PRs though so you'll have to quote me on that 8) |
| 12:59 |
celeron55 |
or link them to me |
| 12:59 |
hecks |
I've done that already :( |
| 12:59 |
hecks |
some people just don't get it |
| 13:01 |
celeron55 |
well of course they won't |
| 13:02 |
hecks |
which is why I wanted some kind of assurance from devs that they won't approve features without safety brakes on them |
| 13:03 |
celeron55 |
i actually don't even know if MT currently applies any kind of shading on models or not |
| 13:03 |
hecks |
Since that PR I linked, it does |
| 13:03 |
hecks |
and it was a feature without an opt-out and I kinda yelled at people over it |
| 13:04 |
celeron55 |
that being said, people also barely notice any kind of artistic quality |
| 13:04 |
hecks |
since hardcoded lambert shading just doesn't look good on my stuff, and it wasn't a thing when I started |
| 13:04 |
celeron55 |
most of the time people comment that things look better when in reality it's worse |
| 13:04 |
hecks |
what you mean to say it, most people don't have taste |
| 13:04 |
celeron55 |
yes |
| 13:05 |
hecks |
=] |
| 13:06 |
hecks |
https://a.uguu.se/Bu1ue0ZCoXr2_stuff.png I'm really trying to break out of that voxel=ugly routine |
| 13:06 |
hecks |
and I've got the skills to make that happen, just please don't pull the rug from under me |
| 13:07 |
hecks |
celeron55: I believe you've wanted to see this kind of consistent, original content for a long time |
| 15:42 |
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| 15:46 |
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| 15:55 |
celeron55 |
yours indeed probably is stylistically most ambitious thing i've seen on MT |
| 15:56 |
celeron55 |
+the |
| 15:58 |
celeron55 |
throwing a barely dressed anime character in an MT world is ambitious enough to initially feel completely wrong |
| 16:09 |
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| 16:43 |
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| 16:45 |
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| 16:50 |
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| 16:54 |
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| 17:14 |
Krock |
thank you Irrlicht for not generating an Event when Shift is released |
| 17:14 |
hecks |
uh oh |
| 17:18 |
Krock |
though according to the code, it seems to depend on xorg |
| 17:18 |
hecks |
you got something I can quickly test on windows? |
| 17:19 |
Krock |
current master. |
| 17:19 |
Krock |
sadly not compiled |
| 17:19 |
Krock |
perhaps you can grab a binary from the buildbot. dunno if that's possible |
| 17:19 |
Krock |
otherwise: https://gitlab.com/minetest/minetest/pipelines/ |
| 17:20 |
kilbith |
don't you think there are much more important stuff than fixing a platform nobody cares about there |
| 17:21 |
hecks |
are you implying nobody cares about xorg or about windows |
| 17:21 |
kilbith |
a small bug on an irrelevant platform moreover |
| 17:21 |
hecks |
because both are wrong |
| 17:21 |
kilbith |
about MacOS |
| 17:21 |
Krock |
works on Wine... lol |
| 17:21 |
Krock |
working around an irrlicht but unreveals another one. will revert that change |
| 17:22 |
kilbith |
it wasn't worth patching the shift-click on this |
| 17:31 |
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| 17:36 |
Krock |
#10721 |
| 17:36 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/10721 -- Revert "GUIFormSpecMenu: Shift+Click listring workaround for MacOS" by SmallJoker |
| 17:37 |
sfan5 |
lgtm |
| 17:38 |
Krock |
how about "Q"? Does it need docs, or is stating the solution in the issue enough? |
| 17:42 |
Krock |
assuming latter |
| 17:43 |
Krock |
will merge game#2795 game#2794 game#2796 and game#2758 in 15 minutes |
| 17:43 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/2795 -- Use Minetest 5.3 'minetest.is_creative_enabled' API by MoNTE48 |
| 17:43 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/2794 -- Improve Russian translation (carts) by RichardTry |
| 17:43 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/2796 -- Update zh_CN translation for mtg_craftguide and dye by IFRFSX |
| 17:43 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/2758 -- Fixed some mistakes in the Indonesian translations by SpicyOnta |
| 17:49 |
sfan5 |
Minetest should switch to using its own irrlicht fork "soon" anyway so just the latter for now |
| 17:50 |
Krock |
alright, thanks. |
| 17:57 |
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| 17:58 |
Krock |
merging |
| 17:59 |
Krock |
done |
| 18:02 |
kilbith |
git reset --hard HEAD~1 wasn't enough? |
| 18:03 |
Krock |
that's only allowed in a 5 min timespan by project rules |
| 18:03 |
Krock |
assuming the same rule as with amended commits can be applied here |
| 18:05 |
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| 19:48 |
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