Time Nick Message 01:25 MTDiscord hi, is it useful/possible to add in full html + css + js support for minetest formspecs... so formspecs become easier to write, and cient side... 01:30 lhofhansl I think so, but that seem to be a major undertaking. 01:31 lhofhansl And the js part... Probably not. Another language interpreter just for this? 10:16 MTDiscord Isn't there already the 'style' formspec element which allows css kinda? 10:16 rubenwardy It's not really CSS, and it's not full HTML/Js 10:17 rubenwardy Full HTML/JS would probably 30x the download size of Minetest, would be crazy 10:19 MTDiscord In what areas is Js better than Lua though? 10:20 rubenwardy Loads 10:21 rubenwardy But in this case, it's the use of JS that's important 10:21 rubenwardy JS is used in the web to manipulate the DOM and implement interactive GUIs 10:22 rubenwardy Lua can be made to do the same thing in Minetest - but the point of the HTML/JS suggestion was to use existing tech 10:23 rubenwardy The DOM is the GUI éléments in a webpage 10:23 rubenwardy Lol, English/French keyboard sabotages me 10:25 MTDiscord But our formspecs aren't even remotely close to being DOM elements I'd say 11:04 rubenwardy Which is why HTML/JS was suggested 11:52 hecks the day Minetest actually uses JS alongside Lua in one executable is the day I declare it a clown engine 11:58 MTDiscord heh 11:59 MTDiscord Seeing as we are already developing our own markup (formspecs) and styles (formspec styling), we probably shouldn't move to web stuff 11:59 MTDiscord Extending that with Lua would be nice, but should probably be left to SSCSM 12:00 rubenwardy formspecs should be deprecated at some point 12:00 MTDiscord yeah 12:02 hecks that point might be SSCSM with gui 12:03 hecks if you solve hud, you also solve forms 12:03 hecks and if someone really wants to use HTML, they can make a wrapper for that 12:03 hecks until then, forms aren't that bad 12:05 hecks at least not bad enough to pull in an entire web browser, and let me tell you, those things usually suck 12:06 hecks every time a game pulls in a chromium process or something as a lazy solution for GUI, it causes nothing but trouble 12:08 hecks in some cases it outright caused crash bugs, like with Quake Live (which was just fine before the awesomiumprocess nonsense) 12:10 Wuzzy I doubt JS will ever be added. Which is good. Fuck JS! ? 12:10 Wuzzy btw 12:10 Wuzzy #10693 12:10 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/10693 -- Builtin translate (2nd attempt) by Wuzzy2 12:10 hecks yeah, I kinda meant to say the same, just very politely 12:10 hecks we already have a perfectly good VM available 12:17 rubenwardy I like JS, but pulling in a web browser is crazy and Lua can already fulfill JS's purpose on the client 12:19 MTDiscord We have to develop (or use) a proper GUI library for both HUD & dialogs (formspecs) 12:19 pmp-p an html5canvas emulator + a minimal js engine would not be that bad for very complex UI 12:19 MTDiscord HTML bad 12:20 MTDiscord JS bad 12:20 MTDiscord CSS bad 12:20 MTDiscord the only reason for using these is that they are "standard" 12:20 MTDiscord Well, modern JS isn't even that bad, but not minimal either 12:22 hecks I would argue with the "not that bad" part, see above, this stuff isn't very high quality 12:22 hecks Lua is a similar enough language that it shouldn't be harder to manipulate a DOM or whatever with it 12:23 hecks so the only reason you could ever have to literally use JS is to pull in JS dependencies - and the uses for this I can think of tell me that this idea shouldn't even be touched with a 100 foot stick 12:23 pmp-p hecks: sure but i doubt you'll with complete ui toolkit for canvas like zebkit/zebra in lua 12:23 pmp-p -with +find 12:24 hecks someone's gonna make one eventually 12:24 hecks I'll just roll my own 12:24 MTDiscord ^ 12:25 hecks and having to audit and sandbox not one but *two* VMs handling code sent from the server stinks badly 12:25 hecks just having two competing VMs stinks enough 12:25 MTDiscord https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6527 12:25 pmp-p *that* is a very good argument over "use the standards" 12:26 hecks you speak as if the available JS tools are built for quality, and not to push corporate products out the door 12:26 MTDiscord TBH I like Flutter's approach 12:26 pmp-p +1 for dart+flutter 12:26 hecks see the part about games crashing or bugging out when they start bundling this stuff - the whole point of that is cutting costs 12:26 pmp-p (i hate js) 12:27 MTDiscord We obviously can't bundle Dart & Flutter with Minetest though 12:27 MTDiscord So we'd have to take some inspiration from it and roll our own 12:27 hecks a gui toolkit is nice to have but not mandatory if you have input and rendering 12:28 MTDiscord And SSCSM 12:31 hecks to all devs: can we talk about that shadow mapping branch Liso is working on? 12:32 hecks I'd really like some kind of confirmation that it won't be merged without safety brakes on it 12:32 sfan5 you mean the server should be able to forbid the client from using it? 12:32 hecks exactly 12:33 hecks I mean, not the server - the game more specifically 12:33 hecks so not a .conf entry but an api call 12:33 sfan5 same thing in the end 12:33 MTDiscord why not allow server-sent conf entries? 12:34 hecks it would be the same thing for me, but for everyone else, a .conf flag would be inferior 12:35 hecks although okay, games can come with .conf 12:35 sfan5 work to allow games/mods to better control visual features the client has (or doesn't) is still outstanding so I'd say in this state a shadow mapping feature would be merged *without* the feature you desire 12:35 sfan5 but you're correct that as an engine Minetest should provide this 12:36 hecks well, the server can already control stuff like the skybox 12:36 hecks there are actually reasons to give it a similar API - you want to disable the sunlight shadow in caves or in other situations to save performance 12:37 hecks per-object flags are very desirable too, some things do not deserve or outright shouldn't have a shadow 12:38 hecks imagine an explosion, flame or smoke effect implemented as an objectref, you'd want that to have casting and receiving both off 12:38 MTDiscord does it even work in caves? 12:38 sfan5 what do you mean by "work"? 12:38 MTDiscord display proper shadows emitted by other light sources 12:39 sfan5 to my knowledge the shadow mapping implementation is for the sun only 12:39 MTDiscord :/ 12:40 hecks yup, that's the only source of it, which is why it's a good idea to toggle it off entirely if you know a player is inside a cave or in some other place without sunlight 12:41 hecks and only the game has the knowledge to do that for sure 12:42 hecks in any case, I want at least an off switch for this 12:42 hecks there is precedent for that in the form of CSM flags 12:43 hecks and API functions to toggle stuff are also common - doing this once per player on login I can deal with 12:45 hecks so, how about it, can I have some assurance that #9374 won't repeat itself and I won't have to yell at anyone? 12:45 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/9374 -- Basic model shading by dcbrwn 12:57 sfan5 it certainly won't because none of the defaults are going to change 12:57 celeron55 i agree with hecks, any kind of shading is an artistic decision especially when coming from originally having no shading at all 12:57 hecks thank you 12:58 hecks I'd really like to just focus on making my game and not having to constantly contest features that could break it. 12:59 celeron55 i probably won't be policing this in PRs though so you'll have to quote me on that 8) 12:59 celeron55 or link them to me 12:59 hecks I've done that already :( 12:59 hecks some people just don't get it 13:01 celeron55 well of course they won't 13:02 hecks which is why I wanted some kind of assurance from devs that they won't approve features without safety brakes on them 13:03 celeron55 i actually don't even know if MT currently applies any kind of shading on models or not 13:03 hecks Since that PR I linked, it does 13:03 hecks and it was a feature without an opt-out and I kinda yelled at people over it 13:04 celeron55 that being said, people also barely notice any kind of artistic quality 13:04 hecks since hardcoded lambert shading just doesn't look good on my stuff, and it wasn't a thing when I started 13:04 celeron55 most of the time people comment that things look better when in reality it's worse 13:04 hecks what you mean to say it, most people don't have taste 13:04 celeron55 yes 13:05 hecks =] 13:06 hecks https://a.uguu.se/Bu1ue0ZCoXr2_stuff.png I'm really trying to break out of that voxel=ugly routine 13:06 hecks and I've got the skills to make that happen, just please don't pull the rug from under me 13:07 hecks celeron55: I believe you've wanted to see this kind of consistent, original content for a long time 15:55 celeron55 yours indeed probably is stylistically most ambitious thing i've seen on MT 15:56 celeron55 +the 15:58 celeron55 throwing a barely dressed anime character in an MT world is ambitious enough to initially feel completely wrong 17:14 Krock thank you Irrlicht for not generating an Event when Shift is released 17:14 hecks uh oh 17:18 Krock though according to the code, it seems to depend on xorg 17:18 hecks you got something I can quickly test on windows? 17:19 Krock current master. 17:19 Krock sadly not compiled 17:19 Krock perhaps you can grab a binary from the buildbot. dunno if that's possible 17:19 Krock otherwise: https://gitlab.com/minetest/minetest/pipelines/ 17:20 kilbith don't you think there are much more important stuff than fixing a platform nobody cares about there 17:21 hecks are you implying nobody cares about xorg or about windows 17:21 kilbith a small bug on an irrelevant platform moreover 17:21 hecks because both are wrong 17:21 kilbith about MacOS 17:21 Krock works on Wine... lol 17:21 Krock working around an irrlicht but unreveals another one. will revert that change 17:22 kilbith it wasn't worth patching the shift-click on this 17:36 Krock #10721 17:36 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/10721 -- Revert "GUIFormSpecMenu: Shift+Click listring workaround for MacOS" by SmallJoker 17:37 sfan5 lgtm 17:38 Krock how about "Q"? Does it need docs, or is stating the solution in the issue enough? 17:42 Krock assuming latter 17:43 Krock will merge game#2795 game#2794 game#2796 and game#2758 in 15 minutes 17:43 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/2795 -- Use Minetest 5.3 'minetest.is_creative_enabled' API by MoNTE48 17:43 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/2794 -- Improve Russian translation (carts) by RichardTry 17:43 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/2796 -- Update zh_CN translation for mtg_craftguide and dye by IFRFSX 17:43 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/2758 -- Fixed some mistakes in the Indonesian translations by SpicyOnta 17:49 sfan5 Minetest should switch to using its own irrlicht fork "soon" anyway so just the latter for now 17:50 Krock alright, thanks. 17:58 Krock merging 17:59 Krock done 18:02 kilbith git reset --hard HEAD~1 wasn't enough? 18:03 Krock that's only allowed in a 5 min timespan by project rules 18:03 Krock assuming the same rule as with amended commits can be applied here