| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 00:05 |
paramat |
will merge #5533 #6091 #6126 in a few mins |
| 00:05 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5533 -- Sneak: Strip down version by SmallJoker |
| 00:05 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6091 -- Revert "[CSM] Add send_chat_message and run_server_chatcommand" by rubenwardy |
| 00:05 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6126 -- Default window size: Increase to 1024x576, aspect ratio 16:9 by paramat |
| 00:18 |
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| 00:19 |
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| 00:37 |
paramat |
merging |
| 00:41 |
paramat |
done |
| 00:41 |
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| 00:45 |
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| 00:50 |
garywhite |
So now it's 16:9? |
| 00:59 |
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| 07:27 |
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| 07:27 |
nerzhul |
reverting #bdac12761cd92960c3df83c932aa610f2322215f which was merged whereas it's controversial and agreed by pr author |
| 07:28 |
nerzhul |
and has 1 approval |
| 07:58 |
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| 07:59 |
Krock |
inb4 Revert "Revert "CSM: Revert "[CSM] Add send_chat_message and run_server_chatcommand""" |
| 07:59 |
nerzhul |
inb4 ? what does that mean ? |
| 07:59 |
nerzhul |
inception revert ? :p |
| 08:00 |
nerzhul |
hi Krock |
| 08:01 |
Krock |
"in before", here a sarcastic comment about reverting a revert commit |
| 08:01 |
Krock |
hello nerzhul :) |
| 08:01 |
Krock |
also yeah, kind of an inception |
| 08:02 |
nerzhul |
i really need time to finish those flavour, we merge, and that's all |
| 08:02 |
nerzhul |
can you review my PR about chat protocol rewrite? |
| 08:02 |
nerzhul |
it's almost finished |
| 08:02 |
nerzhul |
#5117 |
| 08:02 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5117 -- Chat protocol rewrite by nerzhul |
| 08:02 |
nerzhul |
only CSM binding update and SSM binding updates are required now |
| 08:10 |
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| 08:17 |
nerzhul |
Krock, why do we want to not send the packet? |
| 08:18 |
Krock |
context please |
| 08:20 |
Krock |
If you mean my suggested code.. it's yours, but with an additional pointer instead of two separate Send calls |
| 08:20 |
nerzhul |
oh :p |
| 08:20 |
Krock |
the packet will not be sent in your code too |
| 08:20 |
Krock |
okay, we already found an issue there :) |
| 08:21 |
Krock |
well, it doesn't matter, as "sentToAll()" ignores proto version 0 too |
| 08:23 |
Krock |
but otherwise looks good - will test when you're done with it |
| 08:45 |
nerzhul |
okay, i have some IRL things to do and i'm polishing #5930 |
| 08:45 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5930 -- [WIP] [CSM] Add flavour limits controlled by server by nerzhul |
| 08:46 |
nerzhul |
see you later |
| 09:02 |
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| 11:36 |
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| 11:42 |
nerzhul |
guyz, on client i think we should only have get_node working like get_node_or_nil, this doesn'th make sense to have the two functions (expecially client side) |
| 11:55 |
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| 12:01 |
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| 12:49 |
nerzhul |
#5930 is now ready for merge, i finished it |
| 12:49 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5930 -- [CSM] Add flavour limits controlled by server by nerzhul |
| 12:50 |
nerzhul |
red-001, Krock sofar rubenwardy please look at it :) |
| 13:34 |
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| 16:17 |
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| 16:19 |
paramat |
Krock nore rubenwardy sofar if #6091 is to remain reverted you need to add your disapprovals, if you feel that way. i did wait a long time and asked for more opinions |
| 16:19 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6091 -- Revert "[CSM] Add send_chat_message and run_server_chatcommand" by rubenwardy |
| 16:20 |
paramat |
it's dubious whether a revert was justified, but a merge was fine |
| 16:21 |
paramat |
^ sfan5 ShadowNinja |
| 16:21 |
Krock |
run_server_command sounds overengineered anyway. there's send_chat_message |
| 16:21 |
paramat |
see my comment |
| 16:22 |
rubenwardy |
send_chat_message shouldn't be in the next release, but I'm happy to wait longer if others want that |
| 16:22 |
Krock |
only that it has 2 approvals doesn't make it mergeable |
| 16:22 |
Krock |
the disapprovals must be solved somehow |
| 16:22 |
paramat |
correct |
| 16:23 |
paramat |
1 disapproval doesn't stop a PR |
| 16:23 |
paramat |
there needs to be more than 1. many PRs have 1 disapproval and get merged |
| 16:24 |
paramat |
and there was no additional comments for a long time, even though i asked and waited |
| 16:25 |
nerzhul |
flavour is ready |
| 16:25 |
nerzhul |
just review merge and close that thing. |
| 16:25 |
nerzhul |
remove feature != disable if server owner doesn't want |
| 16:25 |
rubenwardy |
it's a misfeatur |
| 16:25 |
paramat |
it needs more disapproval to revert |
| 16:28 |
paramat |
anyway let's merge flavours first, then 6091 can be rebased if the author feels like it, by that time hopefully it will have more opinions added |
| 16:30 |
nerzhul |
merge 6091 it with flavour PR merged has no sense |
| 16:31 |
paramat |
well duh |
| 16:32 |
paramat |
just because flavours is merged doesn't mean we have to keep a CSM feature |
| 16:36 |
paramat |
rubenwardy see mark-otaris's comment, perhaps the server command part is useful and can stay? mark suggests mod channels are not enough |
| 16:36 |
rubenwardy |
no, that's not a valid use-case IMO |
| 16:36 |
paramat |
i'll look at flavours in a moment, thanks for that |
| 16:36 |
rubenwardy |
the server should have authority |
| 16:36 |
paramat |
ok |
| 16:36 |
paramat |
obviously |
| 16:49 |
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| 16:56 |
paramat |
all CSM functions are enabled by default? |
| 16:59 |
paramat |
-1 |
| 17:00 |
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| 17:04 |
paramat |
even red-001 agrees with node getters disabled by default |
| 17:06 |
paramat |
and chat |
| 17:06 |
VanessaE |
any CSM function that involves sending something back to the server that then affects the maps or is seen by other players ought be disabled by default. |
| 17:06 |
VanessaE |
period. |
| 17:06 |
ShadowNinja |
paramat: It doesn't allow anything that you couldn't do anyways in C++, so I think you should just make the server-side anti-spam more effective. |
| 17:07 |
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| 17:10 |
paramat |
ShadowNinja the 'possible in C++' argument is invalid, compliling a hacked client is different to using a CSM mod |
| 17:11 |
shivajiva |
^ |
| 17:12 |
paramat |
CSM makes it easy for anyone, multiplying the number of cheaters by 100-1000 |
| 17:15 |
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| 17:16 |
ShadowNinja |
paramat: Yes, it's more difficult, but still possible. I'd prefer if the anti-spam was improved to make this ineffective. But it's probably better to be conservative with the CSM API so I don't mind too much if it's removed. |
| 17:19 |
ShadowNinja |
BTW, I won't be here for the meeting today. paramat: Could you take over? We didn't get much of anything done the last two weeks since there wasn't much participation, so the notes would be the same as last week (or you could add your own stuff). |
| 17:21 |
kilbith |
distributing a hacked client is also easy, and easier to run than CSM hacking |
| 17:22 |
nerzhul |
there is no function to interact with server |
| 17:23 |
nerzhul |
chat message is a way to have pure CSM admin interfaces without channel, and it permits to learn code, by implementing some interactions with server, impossible before that |
| 17:23 |
nerzhul |
it's one of the usecases |
| 17:25 |
paramat |
sorry, i don't like running meetings, i would rather we have meetings when people are around |
| 17:28 |
ShadowNinja |
paramat: 18:00Z is one of the best times, it's just that not everyone shows up. |
| 17:28 |
ShadowNinja |
Anyone else to run the meeting? |
| 17:32 |
paramat |
well, we can still have a meeting and run it together |
| 17:33 |
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| 17:35 |
ShadowNinja |
Alright. |
| 17:47 |
paramat |
we can start now, Krock nore rubenwardy sfan5 sofar #5930 what are dev's opinions about the default for this? all server owners who have given their opinion want all disabled, safe option as default makes sense to me |
| 17:47 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5930 -- [CSM] Add flavour limits controlled by server by nerzhul |
| 17:48 |
nerzhul |
personnaly i think it's server owner to have responsibility to disable what he wants |
| 17:49 |
Krock |
these are features that server owners must unlock for players in order to use |
| 17:49 |
Krock |
like we have "privileges" instead of "restrictions" |
| 17:50 |
Krock |
i.e. safe, forbidding all by default |
| 17:52 |
paramat |
at least node getters and chat should be disabled, as red suggests |
| 17:53 |
paramat |
but i think we should go with server owners wishes here |
| 17:53 |
paramat |
since they are so concerned |
| 18:02 |
Krock |
okay, what other PRs are there to discuss? |
| 18:03 |
paramat |
#6125 ? but i'm biased |
| 18:03 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6125 -- F5 debug display: Reformat and remove some information by paramat |
| 18:05 |
Krock |
the 3-line debug method is the most promising of them |
| 18:06 |
paramat |
most is just cleanup of format |
| 18:06 |
paramat |
but param1 is removed as is top tile info, both fairly useless |
| 18:07 |
paramat |
the PR has the 3rd line only appearing if a node is pointed at |
| 18:07 |
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| 18:07 |
Krock |
the variable names (guitext3) could be better but that's trivial |
| 18:08 |
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| 18:08 |
Krock |
IMO more important, to move the whole stuff below the chat console when opened |
| 18:08 |
VanessaE |
:+1: |
| 18:08 |
paramat |
oh, the PR is mostly to stop node info running off-screen |
| 18:09 |
paramat |
(shown in 3rd screenshot which is current behaviour) |
| 18:10 |
paramat |
yeah moving below chat would be good but i don't know how to yet |
| 18:10 |
nore |
I feel that if it is disabled by default, most servers will be with disabled CSM and that will incite much more users to create hacked clients ignoring server limitations on CSM |
| 18:11 |
VanessaE |
forbidden fruit argument? |
| 18:11 |
paramat |
that's a ridiculous argument |
| 18:11 |
paramat |
the default won't affect how server admin set flavours |
| 18:12 |
VanessaE |
I can see the logic in it, but there's one thing to consider: the majority of Minetest users barely know how to install a mod, let alone hack on the C++ side of things |
| 18:12 |
VanessaE |
I don't think it would actually lead to more "hacked" clients |
| 18:12 |
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| 18:12 |
DS-minetest |
+1 to bellow chat console; csm disabled by default would be bad imo. as it's also bad imo that disable_anticheat is disabled by default |
| 18:12 |
paramat |
very few can hack a client, but everyone can use a CSM mod |
| 18:12 |
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| 18:12 |
red-001 |
disabling too much will lead to people not updating |
| 18:12 |
Grandolf |
speaking of clients |
| 18:13 |
Grandolf |
i just saw a sifi node where scifi isnt a mod |
| 18:13 |
Grandolf |
*scifi |
| 18:13 |
Grandolf |
wonder if adding on_punch to it and making it give u 1000 diamonds would be possible |
| 18:13 |
Grandolf |
^not really wondering |
| 18:14 |
nore |
what I'm saying is that many regular players will want to use client-enhancing features that do not affect the server; but that for that they will need to circumvent the limitation |
| 18:14 |
nore |
and if a lot of players do that, the risk that one of these clients gets out is greater |
| 18:14 |
Krock |
minetest.override_item("blah:bar", { on_punch = function(foo, bar, covfefe) end } |
| 18:14 |
VanessaE |
nore: that's why my preference is only to disable by default that which can affect the server. |
| 18:14 |
nerzhul |
Krock, okay then, just set it to UINT64_MAX |
| 18:14 |
VanessaE |
Krock: covfefe is now a metasyn variable? :) |
| 18:15 |
Krock |
yes. |
| 18:15 |
VanessaE |
heh |
| 18:15 |
Krock |
foo bar baz covfefe |
| 18:15 |
nerzhul |
merging trivial fix #6138 |
| 18:15 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6138 -- Camera: Fix wieldmesh glitch after teleporting by kilbith |
| 18:15 |
nore |
<red-001> disabling too much will lead to people not updating <-- very true |
| 18:15 |
paramat |
if the default did result in most servers disabling CSM then 1000 times more cheatere will be using CSM mods unrestricted, that's a far larger danger |
| 18:16 |
paramat |
e i mean the opposite |
| 18:16 |
paramat |
*er |
| 18:16 |
nore |
also, there will probably be hacked clients that will be distributed anyway, so *shrug* |
| 18:16 |
Krock |
they will update as soon we have attracting new features |
| 18:16 |
nerzhul |
i can disable chat + enable node limit |
| 18:16 |
nerzhul |
nore hacked clients always can do this |
| 18:16 |
nore |
it's a 1-line patch |
| 18:16 |
red-001 |
see `minehacker` for that one |
| 18:17 |
red-001 |
they even had the nerve to charge for it |
| 18:17 |
Krock |
nore, heh. For years it's already possible to change a single line to "unlock" all privileges locally |
| 18:17 |
paramat |
*if it is enabled by default .. |
| 18:17 |
nore |
Krock: yep, we still don't have enough server-side checking :( |
| 18:17 |
red-001 |
when thankfully there hasn't been a good cheating client yet |
| 18:18 |
nerzhul |
red-001, agreed because anticheat with opensource is zero |
| 18:18 |
Krock |
sadly I lost my ore digging code when switching to linux.. only got this newer area filler code left |
| 18:18 |
Krock |
quite useless in the daily minetest cheating :P |
| 18:18 |
paramat |
the players can ask the server owner to enable the CSM functions if they have not already |
| 18:18 |
red-001 |
`minehacker` for all the fuss it caused on the forums was a subpar product |
| 18:19 |
nore |
Krock: I think I still have ore digging code, but it is so old it needs a lot of rebasing :p |
| 18:19 |
nerzhul |
red-001, can you update it please ? |
| 18:19 |
nerzhul |
#6066 |
| 18:19 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6066 -- Move the code for taking and saving a screenshot to `RenderingEngine` by red-001 |
| 18:19 |
red-001 |
will do tomorrow |
| 18:19 |
paramat |
only 4 function types would be disabled by default, the majority have no restrictions |
| 18:19 |
nerzhul |
nice |
| 18:19 |
Grandolf |
how does a server diable csm's? is there an option? |
| 18:20 |
nerzhul |
#5793 & #5797 should be reviewed to |
| 18:20 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5793 -- [CSM] Add callback on open inventory by Dumbeldor |
| 18:20 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5797 -- [CSM] Add function to set the FOV of the local player by bigfoot547 |
| 18:20 |
nerzhul |
server should not have possibility to disable CSM but limit some API |
| 18:20 |
nerzhul |
CSM is the JS of minetest |
| 18:20 |
nerzhul |
both you have a contract but none can alter the whole state of the other |
| 18:21 |
VanessaE |
um, no. CSM is more like browser add-ons/extensions |
| 18:21 |
kaeza |
it's even better since it's not JS |
| 18:21 |
nerzhul |
VanessaE, browser addons are more intrusive than websites |
| 18:21 |
Grandolf |
cant server see ur settings? |
| 18:21 |
nerzhul |
no because it's intrusive |
| 18:21 |
Grandolf |
and block people with csm's enabled? |
| 18:21 |
VanessaE |
nerzhul: you can't compare it to JS - the server does not send any code to the client. |
| 18:21 |
nerzhul |
VanessaE, atm |
| 18:21 |
VanessaE |
indeed. |
| 18:22 |
nerzhul |
i changed default flavour to 3 (limit node range + disable chat) on #5930 |
| 18:22 |
VanessaE |
until it does, it can't be compared to JS. it can best be compared to addons/extensions |
| 18:22 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5930 -- [CSM] Add flavour limits controlled by server by nerzhul |
| 18:22 |
nerzhul |
i don't see any security issue to block itemdefs and nodedefs by default |
| 18:22 |
nerzhul |
browsers extensions are enabled by users to alter websites :p |
| 18:22 |
paramat |
ok good enough for me |
| 18:22 |
VanessaE |
nerzhul: exactly my point. |
| 18:23 |
VanessaE |
and just as a browser and server should never allow things to be sent to the server that can disrupt it, so should Minetest restrict the power of CSM. |
| 18:23 |
paramat |
thanks |
| 18:24 |
nerzhul |
chat messages are AJAX calls, it's allowed in a browser :) |
| 18:25 |
VanessaE |
you know what I mean... |
| 18:25 |
red-001 |
is web browser metaphor is kinda breaking down isn't it? |
| 18:26 |
VanessaE |
it only breaks down if you over-analyze it :P |
| 18:26 |
nerzhul |
red-001, okay for 5930 ? |
| 18:26 |
nerzhul |
nore, ShadowNinja ? |
| 18:26 |
nerzhul |
sofar, ? |
| 18:26 |
red-001 |
#5930 |
| 18:26 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5930 -- [CSM] Add flavour limits controlled by server by nerzhul |
| 18:27 |
paramat |
meeting notes are here https://public.etherpad-mozilla.org/p/g50S6G3Fou |
| 18:27 |
nerzhul |
this close the controversy and we can really do other things :p |
| 18:27 |
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| 18:28 |
red-001 |
you should explain how a byteflag works or link to something that does |
| 18:28 |
red-001 |
it's not something you can expect server owners to already know |
| 18:29 |
Krock |
paramat, wasn't there a newer one somewhere? |
| 18:29 |
paramat |
yeah possibly |
| 18:29 |
paramat |
that one is old, but thought it was one that got updated |
| 18:30 |
paramat |
not much has happened in meetings for weeks though |
| 18:35 |
red-001 |
oh nvm looks like you did explain it |
| 18:35 |
DS-minetest |
imo the CHAT_MESSAGES: 2 (disable send_chat_message call client-side) flag of 5930 should be disabled by default, if server owners are annoyed by spamming or colored chat, they will disable it |
| 18:35 |
paramat |
nice priorities |
| 18:36 |
red-001 |
server owner that don't like coloured chat should enable colour filtering |
| 18:36 |
red-001 |
it's literal a setting on the server |
| 18:36 |
VanessaE |
bbl |
| 18:36 |
DS-minetest |
but if they don't care, they are mostly too lazy to deactivate it |
| 18:37 |
paramat |
so many people suggesting everything is set up in favour of troublemakers |
| 18:40 |
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| 18:46 |
Grandolf |
https://github.com/Grandolf/cheater/tree/master |
| 18:50 |
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| 18:52 |
paramat |
first offtopic, then 'ur', now that, not sure grandolf should be allowed in this channel |
| 18:52 |
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| 18:53 |
paramat |
we can give you a chance if you behave |
| 18:53 |
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| 18:54 |
Krock |
no kindergarten here. first warn, then kick. simple. |
| 18:54 |
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| 19:05 |
paramat |
nerzhul sorry, my 'ok for me' wasn't a +1 |
| 19:05 |
paramat |
i'm not sure i am qualified to review the code |
| 19:05 |
paramat |
but i don't oppose |
| 19:06 |
paramat |
can we have a protocol bump with this? |
| 19:07 |
paramat |
to allow those who want to enforce restrictions |
| 19:08 |
paramat |
what do others think about a bump? |
| 19:18 |
red-001 |
paramat? |
| 19:19 |
red-001 |
he didn't say anything |
| 19:19 |
red-001 |
oh I just have them ignored by ip |
| 19:20 |
paramat |
:] |
| 19:57 |
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| 21:09 |
nerzhul |
his mod is not cheat, it's a server side mod, i do'nt see any hole lol |
| 21:18 |
Calinou |
this guy has been making a lot of confusing/nonsense issues lately: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6132 |
| 21:18 |
Calinou |
:| |
| 21:19 |
Calinou |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=author%3Azaoqi%20 |
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| 21:44 |
red-001 |
just ban them |
| 21:45 |
red-001 |
or not dunno |
| 21:47 |
paramat |
zaoqi is chinese, but could make more effort to use google translate or something |
| 21:47 |
red-001 |
nvm I though the two users where the same person |
| 21:47 |
red-001 |
I though Calinou was referring to the same person as nerzhul |
| 21:56 |
rubenwardy |
#6136 |
| 21:56 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6136 -- TCP |
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