Time Nick Message 00:05 paramat will merge #5533 #6091 #6126 in a few mins 00:05 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5533 -- Sneak: Strip down version by SmallJoker 00:05 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6091 -- Revert "[CSM] Add send_chat_message and run_server_chatcommand" by rubenwardy 00:05 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6126 -- Default window size: Increase to 1024x576, aspect ratio 16:9 by paramat 00:37 paramat merging 00:41 paramat done 00:50 garywhite So now it's 16:9? 07:27 nerzhul reverting #bdac12761cd92960c3df83c932aa610f2322215f which was merged whereas it's controversial and agreed by pr author 07:28 nerzhul and has 1 approval 07:59 Krock inb4 Revert "Revert "CSM: Revert "[CSM] Add send_chat_message and run_server_chatcommand""" 07:59 nerzhul inb4 ? what does that mean ? 07:59 nerzhul inception revert ? :p 08:00 nerzhul hi Krock 08:01 Krock "in before", here a sarcastic comment about reverting a revert commit 08:01 Krock hello nerzhul :) 08:01 Krock also yeah, kind of an inception 08:02 nerzhul i really need time to finish those flavour, we merge, and that's all 08:02 nerzhul can you review my PR about chat protocol rewrite? 08:02 nerzhul it's almost finished 08:02 nerzhul #5117 08:02 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5117 -- Chat protocol rewrite by nerzhul 08:02 nerzhul only CSM binding update and SSM binding updates are required now 08:17 nerzhul Krock, why do we want to not send the packet? 08:18 Krock context please 08:20 Krock If you mean my suggested code.. it's yours, but with an additional pointer instead of two separate Send calls 08:20 nerzhul oh :p 08:20 Krock the packet will not be sent in your code too 08:20 Krock okay, we already found an issue there :) 08:21 Krock well, it doesn't matter, as "sentToAll()" ignores proto version 0 too 08:23 Krock but otherwise looks good - will test when you're done with it 08:45 nerzhul okay, i have some IRL things to do and i'm polishing #5930 08:45 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5930 -- [WIP] [CSM] Add flavour limits controlled by server by nerzhul 08:46 nerzhul see you later 11:42 nerzhul guyz, on client i think we should only have get_node working like get_node_or_nil, this doesn'th make sense to have the two functions (expecially client side) 12:49 nerzhul #5930 is now ready for merge, i finished it 12:49 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5930 -- [CSM] Add flavour limits controlled by server by nerzhul 12:50 nerzhul red-001, Krock sofar rubenwardy please look at it :) 16:19 paramat Krock nore rubenwardy sofar if #6091 is to remain reverted you need to add your disapprovals, if you feel that way. i did wait a long time and asked for more opinions 16:19 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6091 -- Revert "[CSM] Add send_chat_message and run_server_chatcommand" by rubenwardy 16:20 paramat it's dubious whether a revert was justified, but a merge was fine 16:21 paramat ^ sfan5 ShadowNinja 16:21 Krock run_server_command sounds overengineered anyway. there's send_chat_message 16:21 paramat see my comment 16:22 rubenwardy send_chat_message shouldn't be in the next release, but I'm happy to wait longer if others want that 16:22 Krock only that it has 2 approvals doesn't make it mergeable 16:22 Krock the disapprovals must be solved somehow 16:22 paramat correct 16:23 paramat 1 disapproval doesn't stop a PR 16:23 paramat there needs to be more than 1. many PRs have 1 disapproval and get merged 16:24 paramat and there was no additional comments for a long time, even though i asked and waited 16:25 nerzhul flavour is ready 16:25 nerzhul just review merge and close that thing. 16:25 nerzhul remove feature != disable if server owner doesn't want 16:25 rubenwardy it's a misfeatur 16:25 paramat it needs more disapproval to revert 16:28 paramat anyway let's merge flavours first, then 6091 can be rebased if the author feels like it, by that time hopefully it will have more opinions added 16:30 nerzhul merge 6091 it with flavour PR merged has no sense 16:31 paramat well duh 16:32 paramat just because flavours is merged doesn't mean we have to keep a CSM feature 16:36 paramat rubenwardy see mark-otaris's comment, perhaps the server command part is useful and can stay? mark suggests mod channels are not enough 16:36 rubenwardy no, that's not a valid use-case IMO 16:36 paramat i'll look at flavours in a moment, thanks for that 16:36 rubenwardy the server should have authority 16:36 paramat ok 16:36 paramat obviously 16:56 paramat all CSM functions are enabled by default? 16:59 paramat -1 17:04 paramat even red-001 agrees with node getters disabled by default 17:06 paramat and chat 17:06 VanessaE any CSM function that involves sending something back to the server that then affects the maps or is seen by other players ought be disabled by default. 17:06 VanessaE period. 17:06 ShadowNinja paramat: It doesn't allow anything that you couldn't do anyways in C++, so I think you should just make the server-side anti-spam more effective. 17:10 paramat ShadowNinja the 'possible in C++' argument is invalid, compliling a hacked client is different to using a CSM mod 17:11 shivajiva ^ 17:12 paramat CSM makes it easy for anyone, multiplying the number of cheaters by 100-1000 17:16 ShadowNinja paramat: Yes, it's more difficult, but still possible. I'd prefer if the anti-spam was improved to make this ineffective. But it's probably better to be conservative with the CSM API so I don't mind too much if it's removed. 17:19 ShadowNinja BTW, I won't be here for the meeting today. paramat: Could you take over? We didn't get much of anything done the last two weeks since there wasn't much participation, so the notes would be the same as last week (or you could add your own stuff). 17:21 kilbith distributing a hacked client is also easy, and easier to run than CSM hacking 17:22 nerzhul there is no function to interact with server 17:23 nerzhul chat message is a way to have pure CSM admin interfaces without channel, and it permits to learn code, by implementing some interactions with server, impossible before that 17:23 nerzhul it's one of the usecases 17:25 paramat sorry, i don't like running meetings, i would rather we have meetings when people are around 17:28 ShadowNinja paramat: 18:00Z is one of the best times, it's just that not everyone shows up. 17:28 ShadowNinja Anyone else to run the meeting? 17:32 paramat well, we can still have a meeting and run it together 17:35 ShadowNinja Alright. 17:47 paramat we can start now, Krock nore rubenwardy sfan5 sofar #5930 what are dev's opinions about the default for this? all server owners who have given their opinion want all disabled, safe option as default makes sense to me 17:47 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5930 -- [CSM] Add flavour limits controlled by server by nerzhul 17:48 nerzhul personnaly i think it's server owner to have responsibility to disable what he wants 17:49 Krock these are features that server owners must unlock for players in order to use 17:49 Krock like we have "privileges" instead of "restrictions" 17:50 Krock i.e. safe, forbidding all by default 17:52 paramat at least node getters and chat should be disabled, as red suggests 17:53 paramat but i think we should go with server owners wishes here 17:53 paramat since they are so concerned 18:02 Krock okay, what other PRs are there to discuss? 18:03 paramat #6125 ? but i'm biased 18:03 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6125 -- F5 debug display: Reformat and remove some information by paramat 18:05 Krock the 3-line debug method is the most promising of them 18:06 paramat most is just cleanup of format 18:06 paramat but param1 is removed as is top tile info, both fairly useless 18:07 paramat the PR has the 3rd line only appearing if a node is pointed at 18:07 Krock the variable names (guitext3) could be better but that's trivial 18:08 Krock IMO more important, to move the whole stuff below the chat console when opened 18:08 VanessaE :+1: 18:08 paramat oh, the PR is mostly to stop node info running off-screen 18:09 paramat (shown in 3rd screenshot which is current behaviour) 18:10 paramat yeah moving below chat would be good but i don't know how to yet 18:10 nore I feel that if it is disabled by default, most servers will be with disabled CSM and that will incite much more users to create hacked clients ignoring server limitations on CSM 18:11 VanessaE forbidden fruit argument? 18:11 paramat that's a ridiculous argument 18:11 paramat the default won't affect how server admin set flavours 18:12 VanessaE I can see the logic in it, but there's one thing to consider: the majority of Minetest users barely know how to install a mod, let alone hack on the C++ side of things 18:12 VanessaE I don't think it would actually lead to more "hacked" clients 18:12 DS-minetest +1 to bellow chat console; csm disabled by default would be bad imo. as it's also bad imo that disable_anticheat is disabled by default 18:12 paramat very few can hack a client, but everyone can use a CSM mod 18:12 red-001 disabling too much will lead to people not updating 18:12 Grandolf speaking of clients 18:13 Grandolf i just saw a sifi node where scifi isnt a mod 18:13 Grandolf *scifi 18:13 Grandolf wonder if adding on_punch to it and making it give u 1000 diamonds would be possible 18:13 Grandolf ^not really wondering 18:14 nore what I'm saying is that many regular players will want to use client-enhancing features that do not affect the server; but that for that they will need to circumvent the limitation 18:14 nore and if a lot of players do that, the risk that one of these clients gets out is greater 18:14 Krock minetest.override_item("blah:bar", { on_punch = function(foo, bar, covfefe) end } 18:14 VanessaE nore: that's why my preference is only to disable by default that which can affect the server. 18:14 nerzhul Krock, okay then, just set it to UINT64_MAX 18:14 VanessaE Krock: covfefe is now a metasyn variable? :) 18:15 Krock yes. 18:15 VanessaE heh 18:15 Krock foo bar baz covfefe 18:15 nerzhul merging trivial fix #6138 18:15 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6138 -- Camera: Fix wieldmesh glitch after teleporting by kilbith 18:15 nore disabling too much will lead to people not updating <-- very true 18:15 paramat if the default did result in most servers disabling CSM then 1000 times more cheatere will be using CSM mods unrestricted, that's a far larger danger 18:16 paramat e i mean the opposite 18:16 paramat *er 18:16 nore also, there will probably be hacked clients that will be distributed anyway, so *shrug* 18:16 Krock they will update as soon we have attracting new features 18:16 nerzhul i can disable chat + enable node limit 18:16 nerzhul nore hacked clients always can do this 18:16 nore it's a 1-line patch 18:16 red-001 see `minehacker` for that one 18:17 red-001 they even had the nerve to charge for it 18:17 Krock nore, heh. For years it's already possible to change a single line to "unlock" all privileges locally 18:17 paramat *if it is enabled by default .. 18:17 nore Krock: yep, we still don't have enough server-side checking :( 18:17 red-001 when thankfully there hasn't been a good cheating client yet 18:18 nerzhul red-001, agreed because anticheat with opensource is zero 18:18 Krock sadly I lost my ore digging code when switching to linux.. only got this newer area filler code left 18:18 Krock quite useless in the daily minetest cheating :P 18:18 paramat the players can ask the server owner to enable the CSM functions if they have not already 18:18 red-001 `minehacker` for all the fuss it caused on the forums was a subpar product 18:19 nore Krock: I think I still have ore digging code, but it is so old it needs a lot of rebasing :p 18:19 nerzhul red-001, can you update it please ? 18:19 nerzhul #6066 18:19 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6066 -- Move the code for taking and saving a screenshot to `RenderingEngine` by red-001 18:19 red-001 will do tomorrow 18:19 paramat only 4 function types would be disabled by default, the majority have no restrictions 18:19 nerzhul nice 18:19 Grandolf how does a server diable csm's? is there an option? 18:20 nerzhul #5793 & #5797 should be reviewed to 18:20 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5793 -- [CSM] Add callback on open inventory by Dumbeldor 18:20 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5797 -- [CSM] Add function to set the FOV of the local player by bigfoot547 18:20 nerzhul server should not have possibility to disable CSM but limit some API 18:20 nerzhul CSM is the JS of minetest 18:20 nerzhul both you have a contract but none can alter the whole state of the other 18:21 VanessaE um, no. CSM is more like browser add-ons/extensions 18:21 kaeza it's even better since it's not JS 18:21 nerzhul VanessaE, browser addons are more intrusive than websites 18:21 Grandolf cant server see ur settings? 18:21 nerzhul no because it's intrusive 18:21 Grandolf and block people with csm's enabled? 18:21 VanessaE nerzhul: you can't compare it to JS - the server does not send any code to the client. 18:21 nerzhul VanessaE, atm 18:21 VanessaE indeed. 18:22 nerzhul i changed default flavour to 3 (limit node range + disable chat) on #5930 18:22 VanessaE until it does, it can't be compared to JS. it can best be compared to addons/extensions 18:22 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5930 -- [CSM] Add flavour limits controlled by server by nerzhul 18:22 nerzhul i don't see any security issue to block itemdefs and nodedefs by default 18:22 nerzhul browsers extensions are enabled by users to alter websites :p 18:22 paramat ok good enough for me 18:22 VanessaE nerzhul: exactly my point. 18:23 VanessaE and just as a browser and server should never allow things to be sent to the server that can disrupt it, so should Minetest restrict the power of CSM. 18:23 paramat thanks 18:24 nerzhul chat messages are AJAX calls, it's allowed in a browser :) 18:25 VanessaE you know what I mean... 18:25 red-001 is web browser metaphor is kinda breaking down isn't it? 18:26 VanessaE it only breaks down if you over-analyze it :P 18:26 nerzhul red-001, okay for 5930 ? 18:26 nerzhul nore, ShadowNinja ? 18:26 nerzhul sofar, ? 18:26 red-001 #5930 18:26 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5930 -- [CSM] Add flavour limits controlled by server by nerzhul 18:27 paramat meeting notes are here https://public.etherpad-mozilla.org/p/g50S6G3Fou 18:27 nerzhul this close the controversy and we can really do other things :p 18:28 red-001 you should explain how a byteflag works or link to something that does 18:28 red-001 it's not something you can expect server owners to already know 18:29 Krock paramat, wasn't there a newer one somewhere? 18:29 paramat yeah possibly 18:29 paramat that one is old, but thought it was one that got updated 18:30 paramat not much has happened in meetings for weeks though 18:35 red-001 oh nvm looks like you did explain it 18:35 DS-minetest imo the CHAT_MESSAGES: 2 (disable send_chat_message call client-side) flag of 5930 should be disabled by default, if server owners are annoyed by spamming or colored chat, they will disable it 18:35 paramat nice priorities 18:36 red-001 server owner that don't like coloured chat should enable colour filtering 18:36 red-001 it's literal a setting on the server 18:36 VanessaE bbl 18:36 DS-minetest but if they don't care, they are mostly too lazy to deactivate it 18:37 paramat so many people suggesting everything is set up in favour of troublemakers 18:46 Grandolf https://github.com/Grandolf/cheater/tree/master 18:52 paramat first offtopic, then 'ur', now that, not sure grandolf should be allowed in this channel 18:53 paramat we can give you a chance if you behave 18:54 Krock no kindergarten here. first warn, then kick. simple. 19:05 paramat nerzhul sorry, my 'ok for me' wasn't a +1 19:05 paramat i'm not sure i am qualified to review the code 19:05 paramat but i don't oppose 19:06 paramat can we have a protocol bump with this? 19:07 paramat to allow those who want to enforce restrictions 19:08 paramat what do others think about a bump? 19:18 red-001 paramat? 19:19 red-001 he didn't say anything 19:19 red-001 oh I just have them ignored by ip 19:20 paramat :] 21:09 nerzhul his mod is not cheat, it's a server side mod, i do'nt see any hole lol 21:18 Calinou this guy has been making a lot of confusing/nonsense issues lately: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6132 21:18 Calinou :| 21:19 Calinou https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=author%3Azaoqi%20 21:44 red-001 just ban them 21:45 red-001 or not dunno 21:46 bigfoot547 red-001, ban who? 21:47 paramat zaoqi is chinese, but could make more effort to use google translate or something 21:47 red-001 nvm I though the two users where the same person 21:47 red-001 I though Calinou was referring to the same person as nerzhul 21:56 rubenwardy #6136 21:56 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6136 -- TCP 21:57 bigfoot547 lol