| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 00:00 |
est31 |
any stable version user cant connect with the nightly builds anymore |
| 00:00 |
est31 |
and vice versa |
| 00:00 |
est31 |
so thats not really what we want, no? |
| 00:00 |
est31 |
and man it should be dead simple to write a socket protocol where you distinguish between minetest udp protocol and sctp tunnelled over udp |
| 00:01 |
est31 |
just check the first few bytes |
| 00:01 |
est31 |
most likely sctp has some magic number |
| 00:03 |
VanessaE |
fwiw, est31, I run my servers on 0.4.14 stable (and plan to keep it there unless there's a huge reason to change) |
| 00:03 |
est31 |
VanessaE, you ran on git builds in the past, no? |
| 00:03 |
VanessaE |
yes. |
| 00:03 |
est31 |
what was the reason to change? |
| 00:03 |
VanessaE |
but if you guys are thinking of breaking old-version compat, now's a good time to do it |
| 00:04 |
OldCoder |
Calinou, old worlds are not there to be deprecated |
| 00:04 |
OldCoder |
People spent time creating them |
| 00:04 |
VanessaE |
oh, I just updated from time to time, and when 0.4.14 was released, I updated again and then decided to just stop there. |
| 00:04 |
OldCoder |
Breaking compatibility is not something to be done lightly |
| 00:04 |
VanessaE |
figured the server engine's good enough for anything I'd want to throw at it now. |
| 00:04 |
est31 |
OldCoder, I think Calinou "only" proposes us to not care about API and network compatibility |
| 00:04 |
OldCoder |
Yes |
| 00:04 |
est31 |
he still wants there to be map compat |
| 00:05 |
OldCoder |
Read that part |
| 00:05 |
OldCoder |
This is not a University project |
| 00:05 |
OldCoder |
This is a system that includes live worlds |
| 00:05 |
OldCoder |
A history that goes back nearly 6 years now |
| 00:05 |
VanessaE |
old map compat is definitely required, but old-client compat, bleh. |
| 00:05 |
OldCoder |
Yes and no |
| 00:05 |
OldCoder |
Remember Redcrab |
| 00:05 |
VanessaE |
there's no reason to support anything older than 0.4.12 or thereabouts |
| 00:05 |
OldCoder |
There are special cases |
| 00:05 |
OldCoder |
^ |
| 00:06 |
OldCoder |
A layered protocol, though... that sounds interesting |
| 00:06 |
VanessaE |
there's also no reason not to update your server software periodically |
| 00:06 |
OldCoder |
Is it out of the question? |
| 00:06 |
OldCoder |
Do that, and perhaps Proller's stuff can be rolled back into main |
| 00:06 |
est31 |
no |
| 00:06 |
est31 |
wont happen |
| 00:07 |
OldCoder |
What is practical, then? |
| 00:07 |
est31 |
without proller changing the license there is nothing we can do |
| 00:07 |
OldCoder |
Ah, that is separate |
| 00:07 |
OldCoder |
From a technical perspective, could network code be improved while allowing fallback to legacy? |
| 00:07 |
est31 |
and changing to GPL means giving up play store |
| 00:07 |
OldCoder |
See above |
| 00:07 |
est31 |
OldCoder, yes |
| 00:07 |
OldCoder |
Put aside Proller |
| 00:07 |
* OldCoder |
likes the idea of having fast and reliable *and* legacy |
| 00:07 |
est31 |
That's the thing you CAN do it |
| 00:08 |
est31 |
And where its totally impossible in fact I don't insist on it |
| 00:08 |
OldCoder |
There has not really been a network person for a while, though |
| 00:08 |
est31 |
just where it is possible but where people dont want to implement backwards compat |
| 00:08 |
OldCoder |
So it has not moved forward |
| 00:08 |
est31 |
The network is a very sensitive part |
| 00:08 |
OldCoder |
Yep |
| 00:09 |
OldCoder |
Object lesson in that recently |
| 00:09 |
OldCoder |
Finicky is the right word |
| 00:09 |
OldCoder |
But a two tier protocol |
| 00:09 |
OldCoder |
could move away from that |
| 00:09 |
VanessaE |
est31: and that "sensitivity" is why I suggest that now is as good a time as any to revamp the whole damn thing |
| 00:09 |
VanessaE |
the server/modding engine is pretty good these days, maps work well for the most part, current clients seem to have no trouble rendering what the server provides, etc. etc |
| 00:10 |
VanessaE |
(where whole damn thing of course just means the network stack) |
| 00:11 |
est31 |
Well the network is layered |
| 00:12 |
est31 |
you can revamp the whole connection.cpp thing without affecting much of the higher levels |
| 00:12 |
est31 |
that's why its also so easy to provide backwards compat here |
| 00:15 |
OldCoder |
Hm. About that "break API compatibility" bit... no way. But backwards compatible for network is a thumbs up. |
| 00:15 |
VanessaE |
OldCoder: is anyone talking about breaking modding API compatibility? |
| 00:15 |
VanessaE |
I thought this discussion was entirely about the network stuff, not modding |
| 00:16 |
OldCoder |
VanessaE, it was apparently about API as well; scroll up |
| 00:16 |
OldCoder |
But right now about networking |
| 00:16 |
* OldCoder |
was responding to a comment about breaking API |
| 00:16 |
VanessaE |
*shrug* I don't see anything about that. |
| 00:16 |
est31 |
I think calinou said that he wants to break everything except the map |
| 00:16 |
OldCoder |
<est31> OldCoder, I think Calinou "only" proposes us to not care about API and network compatibility |
| 00:17 |
OldCoder |
<Calinou> way too much IMO |
| 00:17 |
OldCoder |
<Calinou> only map format really needs to be compatible |
| 00:17 |
OldCoder |
<Calinou> that's about it |
| 00:17 |
VanessaE |
Calinou's comment isn't about the API |
| 00:17 |
OldCoder |
Then est31 misunderstood. If this is solely about networking, there seems to be consensus... |
| 00:18 |
OldCoder |
Is anybody, even Calinou, objecting to the notion of a new protocol with legacy fallback? |
| 00:18 |
est31 |
Calinou's comment gave that impression |
| 00:18 |
est31 |
well either way |
| 00:18 |
OldCoder |
I think you'll have consensus |
| 00:18 |
VanessaE |
now, old-mod-API compat, that's a different matter. if you were talking about dropping some old deprecated feature from the 0.4.0 days (assuming anything still exists) that's fine, imho |
| 00:18 |
VanessaE |
but one subject at a time |
| 00:18 |
OldCoder |
Separate discussion |
| 00:19 |
OldCoder |
No intention to break momentum on current issue |
| 00:19 |
OldCoder |
Question is |
| 00:19 |
est31 |
for example there is the send_pre_v25_init function |
| 00:19 |
OldCoder |
Does the project have one or more network people? |
| 00:19 |
est31 |
OldCoder, nrz originally did lots of network changes |
| 00:19 |
OldCoder |
Hm; not interested in a rewrite at this point? |
| 00:19 |
est31 |
And I did some network work in the past as well |
| 00:20 |
VanessaE |
I'm sure sapier could be convinced to weigh in as well. |
| 00:20 |
est31 |
the new v45 init protocol comes from me |
| 00:20 |
OldCoder |
Will Sapier return, though? But, est31, you indicate there is plenty of network expertise after all |
| 00:21 |
est31 |
0x4f457403 |
| 00:21 |
est31 |
if a packet starts with this value |
| 00:21 |
est31 |
we know its legacy protocol |
| 00:21 |
est31 |
if it starts with sth different we know its the new protocol |
| 00:22 |
est31 |
all we need to do is to prevent packets from the new protocol to start with this value |
| 00:22 |
OldCoder |
All packets? Or just before initial connection? |
| 00:22 |
* OldCoder |
is not familiar with the protocol |
| 00:24 |
est31 |
hrmm initial connection should be enough |
| 00:24 |
|
KaadmY joined #minetest-dev |
| 00:24 |
est31 |
or we just have two separate ports |
| 00:25 |
est31 |
one for normal udp one for sctp |
| 00:25 |
est31 |
but this makes things messy |
| 00:25 |
est31 |
(for the users) |
| 00:25 |
est31 |
and server owners |
| 00:25 |
est31 |
better only have one port |
| 00:28 |
Fixer |
trying to build debug build on ubuntu, exe goes in /usr/local/bin ? |
| 00:28 |
Fixer |
dhlocal error :/ |
| 00:28 |
est31 |
Fixer, do sudo make install |
| 00:28 |
est31 |
it puts everything to the right spots |
| 00:29 |
Fixer |
est31: why don't you guys also build -debug builds in ppa? |
| 00:29 |
est31 |
Fixer, simple reason, no idea how to do it |
| 00:29 |
est31 |
if you find out, tell me :) |
| 00:29 |
Fixer |
est31: i'm trying to make debug package for tenplus1 for gdb, fails on packaging deb |
| 00:29 |
est31 |
and partly missing motivation |
| 00:36 |
Fixer |
ok, i need to reconfigure my cmake, will try again tommorrow |
| 00:36 |
Fixer |
have fun |
| 00:41 |
est31 |
going too |
| 00:47 |
|
crazyR joined #minetest-dev |
| 01:12 |
hmmmm |
[08:06 PM] <OldCoder> Do that, and perhaps Proller's stuff can be rolled back into main |
| 01:12 |
hmmmm |
no |
| 01:12 |
hmmmm |
"proller's stuff" is enet and i had a serious look at enet |
| 01:13 |
hmmmm |
i decided that it's not useful for our purposes since it does not provide any actual advantages over TCP |
| 01:13 |
hmmmm |
if you're okay with requiring reliable packets to have in-order delivery, then I would prefer TCP over enet 100 times over |
| 01:13 |
hmmmm |
also I hear that enet has poor IPv6 support |
| 01:14 |
hmmmm |
that's a no-go either |
| 01:14 |
hmmmm |
so, please, drop the "let's just use enet" meme. i'm getting tired of having to periodically re-defend the no-enet decision. |
| 01:15 |
hmmmm |
and i'm also tired of stressing out about the chance of somebody implementing an enet network backend, making a PR for it, and then everybody getting upset when I don't agree with it |
| 01:15 |
hmmmm |
and then having know-nothing users shouting "HMMMM IS HORRIBLE FOR THE PROJECT! HE KEEPS MINETEST IN THE DARK AGES!" |
| 01:22 |
rubenwardy |
Relevant: http://gafferongames.com/networking-for-game-programmers/udp-vs-tcp/ |
| 01:22 |
rubenwardy |
esp "Wait? Why can’t I use both UDP and TCP?" |
| 01:22 |
rubenwardy |
annoyingly that isn't a proper heading so can't be linked to |
| 01:22 |
rubenwardy |
Not sure what the opinion is of this |
| 01:23 |
rubenwardy |
" TCP tends to induce packet loss in UDP packets" |
| 01:23 |
rubenwardy |
http://www.isoc.org/INET97/proceedings/F3/F3_1.HTM |
| 01:28 |
hmmmm |
that is not true anymore |
| 01:28 |
|
Void7 joined #minetest-dev |
| 01:31 |
|
bugzapper joined #minetest-dev |
| 01:36 |
|
bugzapper joined #minetest-dev |
| 01:39 |
kahrl |
has anyone looked into usrsctp? https://github.com/sctplab/usrsctp |
| 01:40 |
kahrl |
it claims to support unordered reliable delivery and ipv6 |
| 01:41 |
|
Wuzzy2 joined #minetest-dev |
| 01:45 |
|
ElectronLibre joined #minetest-dev |
| 01:52 |
OldCoder |
hmmmm, it was just an example; the part that caught my attention was the possibility of a dual mode |
| 01:53 |
OldCoder |
A new protocol with fallback to legacy |
| 01:53 |
hmmmm |
i'd really prefer to just figure out what the biggest problem is with our current UDP *implementation* and fix that |
| 01:53 |
OldCoder |
Making a clean slate possible, or at least opening up options, while not breaking everything |
| 01:53 |
OldCoder |
Is that possible? |
| 01:53 |
OldCoder |
I mean, finding a specific issue with the current code |
| 01:53 |
* OldCoder |
assume Sapier might know |
| 01:54 |
OldCoder |
I wrote to Sapier recently |
| 01:54 |
OldCoder |
and asked him to comment here |
| 01:54 |
OldCoder |
He has not come yet |
| 01:54 |
OldCoder |
assumes * |
| 02:14 |
|
Void7 joined #minetest-dev |
| 02:34 |
|
Tmanyo joined #minetest-dev |
| 02:38 |
|
ElectronLibre joined #minetest-dev |
| 02:39 |
|
Miner_48er joined #minetest-dev |
| 03:24 |
|
yang2003 joined #minetest-dev |
| 04:54 |
|
Zeno` joined #minetest-dev |
| 05:32 |
|
Zeno` joined #minetest-dev |
| 05:40 |
|
Megal joined #minetest-dev |
| 05:45 |
|
Megal_ joined #minetest-dev |
| 05:46 |
hmmmm |
PTAL https://github.com/kwolekr/minetest/commit/7f3ba4e0ae546ed7f3dd188006200929fe9e455c |
| 05:46 |
hmmmm |
@ Zeno` this is what you requested in the original biomegen pr |
| 05:48 |
Zeno` |
yeah 4294967296 ought to be enough for anyone I agree |
| 05:48 |
Zeno` |
does it impact existing worlds or mapseeds out there in the wild? |
| 05:49 |
Zeno` |
I guess not based on the comment in the src code |
| 05:49 |
hmmmm |
? |
| 05:50 |
hmmmm |
you mean the comment I added? |
| 05:50 |
Zeno` |
yeah |
| 05:50 |
hmmmm |
it's never hurt anybody, it's just that people's seeds aren't as random as they think they are |
| 05:50 |
Zeno` |
yep |
| 05:50 |
Zeno` |
umm, you spelled entropy wrong |
| 05:51 |
Zeno` |
other than that I'm fine with it |
| 05:51 |
hmmmm |
whooops |
| 05:51 |
hmmmm |
okay fixing |
| 05:51 |
hmmmm |
pushing |
| 06:04 |
|
Puka_ joined #minetest-dev |
| 06:04 |
|
nrzkt joined #minetest-dev |
| 06:13 |
|
ElectronLibre joined #minetest-dev |
| 06:17 |
hmmmm |
https://github.com/kwolekr/minetest/commit/8ed467d438634ffe45806a6a6a325bb00774d651 trivial commit (documentation fix), pushing in 20 minutes... |
| 06:20 |
|
Puka joined #minetest-dev |
| 06:21 |
|
Krock joined #minetest-dev |
| 06:28 |
|
Hunterz joined #minetest-dev |
| 06:58 |
|
Robby joined #minetest-dev |
| 07:02 |
hmmmm |
https://github.com/kwolekr/minetest/commit/109c7e334920f859068aeda31463f644e6b69895 another trivial one (define a new typedef) |
| 07:02 |
hmmmm |
pushing in 20 minutes |
| 07:14 |
|
Krock joined #minetest-dev |
| 07:30 |
|
MillersMan joined #minetest-dev |
| 07:58 |
|
jin_xi joined #minetest-dev |
| 08:00 |
|
paramat joined #minetest-dev |
| 09:15 |
|
tenplus1 joined #minetest-dev |
| 09:15 |
tenplus1 |
hi folks... |
| 09:15 |
tenplus1 |
question: if map loads a chunk, and 1 node is broken... it knows node type, but paramtype2 is glitched... will it replace that node using default rotation or freak out ? |
| 09:17 |
paramat |
no idea |
| 09:18 |
kahrl |
the server doesn't typically care about param2 in bulk node data |
| 09:18 |
kahrl |
it does set param2 when a user places a node, but that's about it |
| 09:18 |
tenplus1 |
am trying to figure ways that may crash server/client when player is inside a specific area that's borked |
| 09:18 |
kahrl |
the client cares about param2 when rendering stuff, but it doesn't have the authority to change map data |
| 09:20 |
kahrl |
do you have a backtrace? |
| 09:21 |
paramat |
only a verbose debug so far |
| 09:21 |
tenplus1 |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4151 |
| 09:21 |
tenplus1 |
at end, full debug.txt with verbose is on forum as zip (link provided) |
| 09:22 |
|
naltamur joined #minetest-dev |
| 09:22 |
paramat |
i looked through the full debug it was full of '[ConnectionSend]: con(5/1)RE-SENDING timed-out RELIABLE' and '[ConnectionReceive]: con(5/1)WARNING: ACKed packet not in outgoing queue' |
| 09:22 |
naltamur |
Hello, Can I become a moderator of Italian forum of minetest? |
| 09:23 |
paramat |
those messages come in multiples right from server start |
| 09:23 |
tenplus1 |
it's just weird that specific areas of map set off the stall glitch, and I've bullet-proof all mods using metadata incase something there was corrupt... am thinking of other settings inside nodes now |
| 09:25 |
Krock |
naltamur, yes sure. Simply donate $1000 to me and I'll grant you that wish |
| 09:25 |
tenplus1 |
lol |
| 09:26 |
naltamur |
Krock: okay :) |
| 09:26 |
kahrl |
mmh, what I said wasn't entirely right. The server looks at param2 in some cases, for example when computing the collision boxes of facedir nodes |
| 09:27 |
paramat |
verbose debug is here (big) https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?p=219753#p219753 |
| 09:27 |
paramat |
of course we need a debug build gdb trace |
| 09:28 |
paramat |
fixer might be making a build for you |
| 09:29 |
tenplus1 |
kewl... but yeah, anything stored inside a node, I take it the engine has error correction for any failures |
| 09:33 |
paramat |
anyway, no point spending time on that debug.txt, the debug build gdb will be the thing to study |
| 09:34 |
paramat |
and the recent engine commit has made it worse? |
| 09:37 |
paramat |
if so it could be reverted |
| 09:37 |
tenplus1 |
using 0.4.14 stable we sometimes got up to 12 hours ininterrupted play on server before stall glitch happened.... with yesterday's build we're lucky to make it past the hour |
| 09:38 |
paramat |
ok can you document this somewhere on github and request a revert is considered? |
| 09:39 |
tenplus1 |
will paste info at end of github issue already psoted |
| 09:39 |
paramat |
fine |
| 09:39 |
tenplus1 |
n fact, it's already there :) |
| 09:39 |
tenplus1 |
the paragraph above the debug.txt clip |
| 09:50 |
tenplus1 |
meanwhile I'll bullet-proof entities next |
| 09:50 |
tenplus1 |
thx for help :) |
| 09:50 |
|
tenplus1 left #minetest-dev |
| 10:21 |
|
davisonio joined #minetest-dev |
| 10:37 |
|
Krock joined #minetest-dev |
| 10:41 |
|
Hunterz1 joined #minetest-dev |
| 10:54 |
|
Fixer joined #minetest-dev |
| 10:57 |
paramat |
hmmmm i've added some comments about our general mapgen plans in #4185 |
| 10:57 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4185 -- Biomes: Add biome-definable riverbed material by paramat |
| 10:58 |
paramat |
can anyone review? hmmmm disapproves but i feel this should go ahead |
| 10:58 |
paramat |
if only as a temporary thing |
| 11:17 |
celeron55 |
that part of the code is so squishy it literally doesn't matter at all what happens to it while something to possibly replace it is being designed |
| 11:18 |
celeron55 |
nothing saved, no protocols, just some lua fields, really only used by core mapgens |
| 11:20 |
celeron55 |
and sane defaults happen when compatibility breas |
| 11:20 |
celeron55 |
breaks* |
| 11:24 |
celeron55 |
i don't know if it's something in itself that players want but that's what the code looks like |
| 11:26 |
celeron55 |
the only opinion i really have about any of this stuff is that river water is ridiculous no matter how it's generated, because it doesn't work like normal water |
| 11:26 |
celeron55 |
it's like some slimey substance |
| 11:27 |
celeron55 |
i mean, regular water is quite slimy too, but river water goes too far in its slimyness |
| 11:28 |
celeron55 |
of course this has nothing to do with the issue at hand but this was the day i said it, now 8) |
| 11:38 |
Calinou |
<est31> Calinou, what would you say if 90% of your players can't connect to minetest CTF? |
| 11:38 |
Calinou |
personally I wouldn't care |
| 11:38 |
Calinou |
I don't earn money every time someone joins my server |
| 11:39 |
|
lisac joined #minetest-dev |
| 11:41 |
paramat |
ok thanks c55 |
| 11:42 |
paramat |
river water is the way it is for good reason though |
| 11:42 |
paramat |
try replacing it with range 8 renewable water and see |
| 11:42 |
paramat |
there's no other way to make rivers above sea level |
| 11:43 |
paramat |
it could perhaps be range 3, as long as river slopes don't get too steep |
| 11:44 |
paramat |
i'll consider this |
| 11:47 |
paramat |
in fact i have seen some glitchy water slopes with range 2 it might be too short |
| 11:57 |
paramat |
obviously depends on max river steepness in mgvalleys |
| 12:00 |
paramat |
please can anyone review #4163 ? |
| 12:00 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4163 -- Sky: Darker, bluer sky and improved horizon haze at night by paramat |
| 12:02 |
paramat |
nore sfan5 or any mtgame devs, please are you able to review game#1076 ? |
| 12:02 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/1076 -- Fire: Ignite tnt, gunpowder, permanent flame above coalblock by paramat |
| 12:03 |
celeron55 |
well 2->3 isn't going to fix it; it probably needs some new system some day |
| 12:09 |
sfan5 |
paramat: game1076 code looks good to me |
| 12:09 |
Fixer |
who is responsibe for daily minetest ppa builds? |
| 12:09 |
paramat |
ok thanks |
| 12:10 |
paramat |
well, normal water is ridiculous too, no problem |
| 12:10 |
Fixer |
it seems that installing `pkg-create-dbgsym` package on ubuntu can automatically create symbols for debug in separate .ddeb when normal .deb is build daily |
| 12:18 |
paramat |
will merge games 1076 and 1115 in a moment |
| 12:18 |
paramat |
game#1115 |
| 12:18 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/1115 -- Farming: allow LBM's for other mods as well. by sofar |
| 12:20 |
|
xunto joined #minetest-dev |
| 12:27 |
|
Zeno` joined #minetest-dev |
| 12:30 |
paramat |
merging |
| 12:47 |
paramat |
done |
| 12:59 |
|
KaadmY joined #minetest-dev |
| 13:09 |
|
davisonio joined #minetest-dev |
| 13:19 |
|
damiel joined #minetest-dev |
| 13:36 |
|
davisonio joined #minetest-dev |
| 13:36 |
|
nrzkt joined #minetest-dev |
| 13:56 |
|
Zeitgeist_ joined #minetest-dev |
| 13:56 |
|
Taoki joined #minetest-dev |
| 14:13 |
|
Zeno` joined #minetest-dev |
| 14:23 |
Fixer |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4187 |
| 15:06 |
|
hmmmm joined #minetest-dev |
| 15:51 |
|
paramat left #minetest-dev |
| 16:03 |
hmmmm |
celeron55: it's deceptive but reverse compatibility is a guarantee because biomes have been made documented in lua_api.txt |
| 16:04 |
hmmmm |
despite me advising against it, it was made documented and now we have a contract to uphold with regard to the interface |
| 16:04 |
hmmmm |
all of a sudden, something that shouldn't be a big deal is now a big deal because of that one detail |
| 16:07 |
celeron55 |
well you can leave some part experimental until later |
| 16:08 |
hmmmm |
there are a surprising number of mods that actually use biomes and rely on them |
| 16:09 |
hmmmm |
i think modders jump on new features because they like new shiny things and they have nothing else to do with their time other than ensuring their mod is as shiny as possible |
| 16:10 |
hmmmm |
i don't want to turn them off from ever wanting to use biomes because the whole interface is a minefield though |
| 16:10 |
|
est31 joined #minetest-dev |
| 16:10 |
hmmmm |
"oh it changes every week, at this point who cares about biomes, i'll just use X-lib which always worked just fine" |
| 16:10 |
est31 |
An API being unstable doesnt mean it shouldnt be documented |
| 16:11 |
est31 |
it can be documented but with a note "this is unstable" |
| 16:11 |
hmmmm |
i think a point we miss is that many parts of the core API is in active competition with preexisting mod libraries that do the same sort of thing |
| 16:12 |
hmmmm |
there needs to be a clear and compelling reason to go through the extra BS of total instability |
| 16:12 |
celeron55 |
well, getting development done while having enough stability is kind of a balancing act; i really don't know this part well enough to actually decide anything about it |
| 16:12 |
celeron55 |
i mean, this part of the api |
| 16:12 |
|
Player_2 joined #minetest-dev |
| 16:13 |
hmmmm |
well what i recently did was add a selection for multiple types of biome systems much like i did with multiple mapgens |
| 16:14 |
hmmmm |
part of the reason is because i don't know what's best either, it's all an experiment, but we have other people depending on this at the same time |
| 16:15 |
hmmmm |
part of me wants to leave paramat do whatever he wants to his own biome system, and have a separate more experimental version. sounds good in theory, but i think we'll have a new fragmentation problem within the same piece of software |
| 16:16 |
hmmmm |
and modders won't enjoy having to support them all |
| 16:25 |
celeron55 |
what is the approach currently being taken in making a single improved biome api? |
| 16:27 |
hmmmm |
negotiation |
| 16:28 |
celeron55 |
could there be an api documentation draft that you and paramat and others could develop as a team, before someone is allowed to develop it and block all changes to upstream? |
| 16:29 |
celeron55 |
going code first here certainly doesn't seem wise |
| 16:31 |
VanessaE |
celeron55: I assume hmmmm's "X lib" comment is a reference to stuff like biome_lib, and if that's the case why not start with the API doc I wrote for it? |
| 16:31 |
celeron55 |
you could even ask modders on #minetest-project |
| 16:31 |
hmmmm |
#minetest-project?? |
| 16:31 |
hmmmm |
VanessaE: I'll have to take a look... |
| 16:31 |
celeron55 |
for comments on the api before implementing |
| 16:31 |
hmmmm |
I know, it's just that I've never heard of that channel until now |
| 16:31 |
VanessaE |
hmmmm: https://github.com/minetest-mods/biome_lib/blob/master/API.txt |
| 16:32 |
hmmmm |
the reason why i've been doing this code-first is because i want to get a feel of what is going to work and what won't |
| 16:33 |
VanessaE |
I'm sure a few things there are...obscure or over-engineered, but it generally works well, if slower than an in-engine solution. |
| 16:33 |
celeron55 |
oh, i guess you weren't around at the time when it was created or something |
| 16:33 |
hmmmm |
one peculiar thing about the biome api is that the design of the interface dictates much of how the biome system will work |
| 16:34 |
celeron55 |
here is OldCoder's write-up about it; it's been running very succesfully since february http://minetest.org/proposal.html |
| 16:36 |
hmmmm |
lol |
| 16:36 |
hmmmm |
> including 12 year olds doing their first Pikachu block |
| 16:36 |
hmmmm |
that just about sums up minetest |
| 16:38 |
Krock |
Minetest, safe for work? This is a paradoxon.. work != playing Minetest |
| 16:39 |
hmmmm |
i work on minetest when i'm supposed to be doing job work too often |
| 16:39 |
hmmmm |
it really isn't safe for work at all. productivity killer |
| 16:39 |
Krock |
but we Minetesters are happy :P |
| 16:39 |
hmmmm |
christ vanessae's biomelib thing is big |
| 16:39 |
hmmmm |
i can't take all that in right now |
| 16:39 |
VanessaE |
yup. |
| 16:40 |
VanessaE |
it's had a lot of time to evolve |
| 16:41 |
VanessaE |
(ironic really, as the actual code is only 737 lines, 28kB :) ) |
| 16:41 |
hmmmm |
sounds to me like much of this and the associated plantlife mod is a lua-only prototype for biomes/schematics/decorations/etc. |
| 16:41 |
VanessaE |
yes basically |
| 16:42 |
celeron55 |
does there exist an estimate about how much slower it is than a C++ implementation would be? |
| 16:42 |
celeron55 |
of the same thing, that is |
| 16:43 |
VanessaE |
celeron55: a C++ implementation would be rather faster, I'd guess 4x at least, since the engine wouldn't have to go back over its own terrain to "evaluate" it as biome_lib does. |
| 16:43 |
VanessaE |
(4x over using luajit that is) |
| 16:43 |
hmmmm |
the point of having a version in the core is to reduce fragmentation |
| 16:43 |
celeron55 |
i'm just wondering; of course something like it should be in the engine |
| 16:43 |
hmmmm |
not necessarily having anything to do with speed |
| 16:44 |
hmmmm |
i can't really do a whole lot of discussion about this without paramat around (or, well, somebody else who is actually interested) |
| 16:44 |
celeron55 |
or, well; i guess not *really* of course; i think i would go with lua-only if it was as fast as C++; but it never is |
| 16:45 |
hmmmm |
maybe all of this is a farce |
| 16:45 |
hmmmm |
maybe we should be focusing our effort on finding a way to make plugins that are as fast as native engine code |
| 16:46 |
VanessaE |
honestly, the only way that's gonna happen is if you supply gcc or something along with MT (or make it a dependency) |
| 16:46 |
hmmmm |
because right now i honestly feel like i'm overdeveloping an obsolete rendering pipeline development model |
| 16:46 |
celeron55 |
well, buildat does that 8) |
| 16:46 |
VanessaE |
celeron55: oh, well that's not so far-fetched as I thought then :D |
| 16:47 |
celeron55 |
nice >100MB download for windows |
| 16:47 |
VanessaE |
well, |
| 16:47 |
hmmmm |
how does buildat do this? |
| 16:47 |
VanessaE |
what's the smallest compiler out there that could *just* do the job? |
| 16:47 |
celeron55 |
well if you go with C, you get quite small compilers |
| 16:47 |
celeron55 |
but buildat literally uses a bundled mingw-w64 |
| 16:48 |
celeron55 |
for C++ |
| 16:48 |
nore |
well, again, it depends on whether we want the mods to be as fast as the engine |
| 16:48 |
celeron55 |
it can be left out for playing only on other servers though |
| 16:48 |
nore |
if we do, then we need an optimizing compiler |
| 16:48 |
hmmmm |
it's the natural next step |
| 16:48 |
nore |
and these are already not so small |
| 16:49 |
hmmmm |
right now, the mapgen and all associated functions are large building blocks that i equivocate to the rendering pipeline |
| 16:49 |
hmmmm |
fast, sure, but monolithic. you can have any color you want as long as it's black |
| 16:50 |
celeron55 |
i'd say, maybe wait for WebAssembly or something to come up, and then use it or some copycat technology inspired by it |
| 16:50 |
hmmmm |
the majority of time is being spent in adding new options or features |
| 16:50 |
hmmmm |
whereas the next generation technology would be making a script for everything, i.e. the minetest equivalent to shaders |
| 16:51 |
hmmmm |
but what made shaders popular is that they were no-cost and in many cases faster |
| 16:52 |
hmmmm |
so in addition to making the modders happier because they'd have more control over their mod, we'd be happier too because there's more free time to be spent on other things instead of exposing more options through the lua api |
| 16:53 |
hmmmm |
so, i think having a plugin system like buildat's would be another Big Feature that would make a large visible improvement for minetest |
| 16:54 |
hmmmm |
i understand the point of buildat now too |
| 16:54 |
nore |
I agree |
| 16:54 |
celeron55 |
i wouldn't object it if somebody published an experimental version of minetest with C language server-side mods or something; there are small compilers like http://bellard.org/tcc/ |
| 16:55 |
hmmmm |
it's an experimental playground you could freely develop and add radical new concepts without disrupting anybody else |
| 16:55 |
celeron55 |
it's inherently not safe though |
| 16:55 |
celeron55 |
as are precompiled binary mods |
| 16:55 |
hmmmm |
this is a stupid video game for 12 year olds though |
| 16:55 |
hmmmm |
why are we so focused on stability and so on |
| 16:56 |
celeron55 |
well, you are the one most focused on that |
| 16:56 |
VanessaE |
hmmmm: because 30 pecent of the userbase isn't kids. |
| 16:56 |
celeron55 |
i can be pretty laid back as long as development is getting done |
| 16:56 |
|
damiel joined #minetest-dev |
| 16:56 |
VanessaE |
and even then, kids still hate unstable stuff (they just tolerate it better than we do) |
| 16:57 |
hmmmm |
yeah perhaps so |
| 16:57 |
hmmmm |
MT has come a long way |
| 16:57 |
hmmmm |
i remember when it used to crash every 5 minutes |
| 16:57 |
Calinou |
>MT has come a long way |
| 16:57 |
celeron55 |
anyway, i appreciate it that people now get buildat 8) it's certainly a way of thinking that might be useful in the future |
| 16:57 |
Calinou |
yeah, from 0.3... where it was very lightweight and stable :( |
| 16:57 |
VanessaE |
heh |
| 16:57 |
Calinou |
ran at 60 FPS on most systems |
| 16:57 |
Calinou |
today's Minetest almost never runs at 60 FPS on Windows for unknown reasons |
| 16:58 |
hmmmm |
yeah despite all the optimizations it seems like minetest is still slower |
| 16:58 |
hmmmm |
the rendering code doesn't *do* a whole lot more either |
| 16:58 |
Calinou |
if I had time I'd work on my own voxel project, but certainly lack the skills |
| 16:58 |
celeron55 |
let's check my rendering optimizations checklist; now where is it... |
| 16:58 |
Calinou |
I'm going to have trouble creating a FPS already :) |
| 16:59 |
celeron55 |
hmm, none of these have been taken care of i guess https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?p=133347#p133347 |
| 16:59 |
hmmmm |
i really hate saying this but i almost guarantee it was caused by the less-experienced chefs cooking up their own dishes *cough RBA* |
| 16:59 |
celeron55 |
no gain for no effort, obviously |
| 16:59 |
VanessaE |
Calinou: because there are number of CPU-bound things MT has going on that just weren't used much in the past, like entities and texture compositing |
| 17:00 |
Calinou |
also server being very unoptimized, and network protocol having issues |
| 17:00 |
VanessaE |
even if you have a badass GPU, a middle-of-the road CPU will kill your FPS |
| 17:00 |
hmmmm |
celeron55: the texture atlas is item #1 there. i notice your PR has the texture atlas re-added. why can't you split this out? |
| 17:00 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1 -- GlowStone code by anonymousAwesome |
| 17:00 |
Calinou |
well, i7-4720HQ can't sustain 60 FPS on Minetest on Windows |
| 17:00 |
Calinou |
that's a modern quad-core |
| 17:00 |
Calinou |
laptop CPU but still |
| 17:01 |
celeron55 |
hmmmm: well it doesn't necessarily make sense to make texture atlases general purpose, and more importantly a texture atlas is trivial; it's the usage of it that is hard |
| 17:01 |
VanessaE |
Calinou: Phenom II X6 1055T here (2.8 GHz x 6), same deal, though ever since the VBO code went in, MT has performed a LOT better than it used to |
| 17:01 |
VanessaE |
(at least compared to late 0.4 series, excluding 0.3) |
| 17:01 |
hmmmm |
fwiw i think it was kahrl who removed the texture atlas |
| 17:02 |
hmmmm |
the talk at the time was that it didn't really help much because of the texture sorting added in 0.4.3 |
| 17:02 |
VanessaE |
hmmmm: no |
| 17:02 |
celeron55 |
the texture atlas was removed by a consensus |
| 17:02 |
VanessaE |
well that's not the only reason |
| 17:02 |
celeron55 |
but it was a bad decision |
| 17:02 |
hmmmm |
it was years ago |
| 17:02 |
|
electrodude512 joined #minetest-dev |
| 17:02 |
VanessaE |
the texture atlas also had problems with too much texture data |
| 17:02 |
VanessaE |
e.g. HDX 32px would break it |
| 17:02 |
celeron55 |
i think RBA broke it and then it tended to be disabled |
| 17:03 |
celeron55 |
and it was also disabled for other reasons like that |
| 17:03 |
hmmmm |
he broke it by modifying it or by misusing it |
| 17:03 |
hmmmm |
? |
| 17:03 |
VanessaE |
he insists that a texture atlas would break some other feature, don't recall what though |
| 17:03 |
VanessaE |
something related to normalmapping I think |
| 17:03 |
hmmmm |
blahhh |
| 17:03 |
VanessaE |
insisted* ( :( ) |
| 17:04 |
hmmmm |
i feel like we've given up more in performance for normalmapping than any other feature |
| 17:04 |
OldCoder |
tcc isn't maintained |
| 17:04 |
hmmmm |
and was it even necessary? i don't really know because i've never done it before, but could've there been a better approach to adding normalmapping that didn't require such a large change and performance hit? |
| 17:05 |
VanessaE |
honestly, |
| 17:05 |
VanessaE |
I HATE how normalmapping is done in MT |
| 17:05 |
hmmmm |
how is normalmapping done in MT vs. another game you do like? |
| 17:05 |
VanessaE |
well that's just it, I don't play enough other games to tell how THEY do it, |
| 17:06 |
VanessaE |
but this mess with using four RGBA channels for different things in one file? |
| 17:06 |
VanessaE |
let's see, what was it... R+G are used for directional vectors, B for height, A for something else that I can't even remember now |
| 17:07 |
VanessaE |
and yet, we can't do basic stuff like lighting that follows the sun, specular highlighting, and so on |
| 17:07 |
hmmmm |
blahhh |
| 17:08 |
hmmmm |
how'd we get from biomes to normal mapping |
| 17:08 |
VanessaE |
I think RBA should have taken a different path through that jungle. |
| 17:08 |
hmmmm |
this is a jungle and i am not going to get anywhere unless i focus on my own problem |
| 17:08 |
VanessaE |
oh sorry, my fault :) |
| 17:08 |
hmmmm |
a jungle biome if you will |
| 17:08 |
VanessaE |
heh |
| 17:09 |
|
Zeitgeist_ joined #minetest-dev |
| 17:09 |
celeron55 |
i think, if we wanted, we could afford to maintain a lightweight but official effort at making a new incompatible engine designed for a smaller core, faster mods and refreshed library choices, alongside minetest; but i'm not sure if anything useful would come out of it |
| 17:09 |
hmmmm |
all this stuff requires effort |
| 17:10 |
VanessaE |
celeron55: that's not a bad idea but folks around here always say that manpower is already stretched too thin |
| 17:10 |
celeron55 |
it does; but you also get more effort if you have inspiring projects |
| 17:10 |
VanessaE |
if dev were started on a whole new engine core, the existing core would have to basically be abandoned |
| 17:10 |
celeron55 |
manpower depends on how interested people are |
| 17:10 |
celeron55 |
it's not a zero-sum game |
| 17:10 |
hmmmm |
let's face it nobody is interested in a minecraft clone |
| 17:10 |
hmmmm |
minecraft is old and busted, everybody has moved on |
| 17:10 |
hmmmm |
not popular anymore |
| 17:11 |
VanessaE |
I dunno |
| 17:11 |
VanessaE |
my server stats of late belie that claim.. |
| 17:11 |
VanessaE |
(bely?) |
| 17:12 |
|
amadin joined #minetest-dev |
| 17:12 |
VanessaE |
MC may not be popular but MT seems to be holding its own; out of nowhere, my userbase jumped by 2x |
| 17:13 |
celeron55 |
well, interest isn't dying down; it's pretty steady as far as i can tell |
| 17:13 |
VanessaE |
(and just as quickly, seemed to wane off) |
| 17:13 |
Calinou |
celeron55: time for you to clone CS: GO and DOTA 2! ;) |
| 17:13 |
Fixer |
MC not popular anymore? o_0 |
| 17:13 |
hmmmm |
it's still hugely popular for sure |
| 17:14 |
hmmmm |
it's just that the fad died off long ago |
| 17:14 |
celeron55 |
i don't think you are here to chase fads, though |
| 17:15 |
Fixer |
hmmmm: minecraft inspired subgame will be nice, i will play that for sure, I don't need fad |
| 17:15 |
hmmmm |
that determines in part the number of potential developers we have |
| 17:15 |
hmmmm |
not all trees bare fruit |
| 17:15 |
hmmmm |
i don't want to start a minimal engine that does all these experimental things while neglecting the current minetest project and pissing everybody off |
| 17:15 |
VanessaE |
well at the same time, as MC loses popularity, devs will leave it and some will come here. |
| 17:15 |
Calinou |
I wish there was a standalone project that aimed to clone modern Minecraft, so far there is none |
| 17:16 |
VanessaE |
(we've already seen that happening) |
| 17:16 |
Calinou |
there are projects that aim to clone Roller Coaster Tycoon 2 for example |
| 17:16 |
Calinou |
seems to be quite popular on GitHub, and looks like it's playable |
| 17:16 |
celeron55 |
hmmmm: that's why (i said) it should take a very small amount of resources |
| 17:16 |
celeron55 |
hmmmm: or, of course, not exist at all |
| 17:16 |
hmmmm |
a very small amount of resources of a small amount of resources is probably like 5 minutes per day |
| 17:17 |
VanessaE |
celeron55: what is the viability of resurrecting buildat for that purpose? |
| 17:17 |
hmmmm |
let's face it some people have the mental energy required to do all this development on top of maintaining a normal life |
| 17:17 |
celeron55 |
well, let's forget it then |
| 17:17 |
VanessaE |
seems like you already did a lot of the work needed |
| 17:17 |
hmmmm |
i don't |
| 17:17 |
Fixer |
Calinou: openttd is also big success |
| 17:17 |
celeron55 |
VanessaE: i don't know; after two months i decided that two months is too long considering half of the interfaces have to be redesigned |
| 17:17 |
Fixer |
Calinou: and oolite |
| 17:18 |
Fixer |
people want that classic stuff |
| 17:18 |
Fixer |
minecraft is classic |
| 17:18 |
VanessaE |
celeron55: well what I mean is, you built a fairly good codebase, for it is, right? |
| 17:18 |
Calinou |
we don't even have open source Counter-Strike clone :< |
| 17:18 |
VanessaE |
for what it is* |
| 17:18 |
celeron55 |
VanessaE: i wish it had some crazy userbase that abused the shit out of it and showed me what it can do |
| 17:19 |
|
jin_xi joined #minetest-dev |
| 17:19 |
Fixer |
Calinou: cs 1.6 still very very popular, many thousands of players, i think >30000 or so |
| 17:19 |
VanessaE |
heh |
| 17:19 |
celeron55 |
i have one for minetest |
| 17:19 |
celeron55 |
it helps a bit |
| 17:19 |
celeron55 |
or helped |
| 17:19 |
Calinou |
Fixer: also CS:S and CS:GO of course |
| 17:19 |
Fixer |
Calinou: yes, i like cs:s too |
| 17:19 |
hmmmm |
surely some other projects have gone through the same phases as ours is |
| 17:20 |
hmmmm |
isn't there any past precedent? |
| 17:20 |
Fixer |
it is just minetest_game is boring |
| 17:20 |
Calinou |
well, Cube 2: Sauerbraten was quite popular in 2007-2009 |
| 17:20 |
Calinou |
then it started fading in 2010, with less frequent releases |
| 17:20 |
Calinou |
it made the news many times, which is why it's still on Wikipedia today |
| 17:20 |
Calinou |
(Burger King ad) |
| 17:20 |
Fixer |
people want minecraft like stuff, building etc |
| 17:20 |
VanessaE |
hmmmm: micropolis -> lincity -> lincity-ng |
| 17:21 |
Fixer |
minecraft_game is mostly sandbox, not a survival or anything, and you don't include any good subgames (even tutorial is having hard time to move in) |
| 17:22 |
Fixer |
minetest_game* |
| 17:22 |
VanessaE |
tuxracer -> ppracer is another that comes to mind |
| 17:23 |
Fixer |
you end up with boring singleplayer, no survival, no monsters, NO CARTS (damn it) |
| 17:23 |
VanessaE |
Fixer: well we all know why there are no monsters/carts |
| 17:23 |
Fixer |
no wind sounds |
| 17:23 |
Fixer |
VanessaE: now i think it is just an excuse |
| 17:23 |
VanessaE |
s/wind/environmental/ |
| 17:24 |
Fixer |
VanessaE: many servers run mobs with large amount of people and it works, you can use this in singleplayer, period |
| 17:24 |
Fixer |
carts don't lag in singleplayer |
| 17:24 |
VanessaE |
sure they do. |
| 17:24 |
Fixer |
in multiplayer they are installed anyway and lag anyway |
| 17:25 |
VanessaE |
remember even singleplayer is still one process communicating with another; haven't you ever noticed a cart occasionally jitter while it's moving along? |
| 17:25 |
Fixer |
VanessaE: yes, environmental, it feels like you are half-deef |
| 17:25 |
Fixer |
VanessaE: sometimes, not a big deal |
| 17:25 |
VanessaE |
that's lag. |
| 17:25 |
|
Zeitgeist_ joined #minetest-dev |
| 17:25 |
VanessaE |
now as for environmental sounds, that's easily solved with the Ambiance mod. |
| 17:26 |
Fixer |
VanessaE: pfff, server stall = now that a tough shit! some cart jitter? boat jitters too, can we remove it for Cthulhu's sake? |
| 17:26 |
VanessaE |
but again lag is an issue there, especially since the client can't tell the server "hey, shut this sound off and play this other sound the instant the user crosses this such and such boundary" |
| 17:26 |
VanessaE |
I don't have much opinion on the bot, but then again since we have them, a decent carts implementation would make sense. |
| 17:27 |
Fixer |
boat has jitter, railcart has jitter, yet boat is in default and you end up with uselsess rail, come on |
| 17:27 |
Fixer |
again, if ambience is running fine on server with 40 players, why this is an issue for damn singleplayer? |
| 17:27 |
VanessaE |
the problem with adding a default carts mod is the same problem hmmmm and celeron55 were talking about with biomes - you need to remain backward compatible with whatever the most-installed implementation there is |
| 17:28 |
Fixer |
than you will never have carts in default |
| 17:28 |
VanessaE |
which in the case of carts means making sure you support things like brake and power rails, which depend on Mesecons. |
| 17:28 |
VanessaE |
(well the power rails do) |
| 17:28 |
VanessaE |
and if you do THAT, you open up a whole new can of worms |
| 17:29 |
Fixer |
you are overcomplicating everything, server owners or modmakers can adapt it whatever they like i guess |
| 17:29 |
VanessaE |
of course, |
| 17:29 |
VanessaE |
but you're forgetting an important point: |
| 17:29 |
Fixer |
VanessaE: you can always disable builtin carts and use whatever you like |
| 17:29 |
Fixer |
end of story |
| 17:29 |
Fixer |
simple |
| 17:30 |
VanessaE |
if you re-implement a popular mod as a default game feature, you have to make sure server owners can safely delete the theoretically-now-obsoleted "popular" mod. |
| 17:30 |
Fixer |
thats their job to maintain server |
| 17:31 |
Fixer |
if you are hosting the server, you are expected to fix it/maintain blabal, otherwise you are just a bad admin |
| 17:31 |
VanessaE |
with carts that wouldn't be TOO hard really, I think the only "odd" feature there is the power rail, which could be excluded from default and moved into Mesecons |
| 17:31 |
VanessaE |
fixing/maintaining a server is impossible if you're starting from a broken base system. |
| 17:31 |
VanessaE |
not to say MT is a broken base system of course |
| 17:31 |
VanessaE |
but one must ensure that it never does get to that point. |
| 17:32 |
VanessaE |
now, I must challenge you: |
| 17:32 |
VanessaE |
how many servers do you host or run? |
| 17:33 |
VanessaE |
because I've got 23 instances running on my server, all of which as far as I am aware, are as stable as can be expected. |
| 17:33 |
VanessaE |
(if I counted right) |
| 17:35 |
VanessaE |
my point being, don't say a person is a "bad" admin if they have trouble keeping a server going. |
| 17:36 |
Fixer |
my point is: include good and proven mods from community in default MTG to create nice survival/building default subgame (close to MC in gameplay), and let modmakers contribute to it |
| 17:37 |
VanessaE |
that's fine. |
| 17:37 |
VanessaE |
but you HAVE to make sure that what gets included is neither over-engineered nor incompatible with what they're intended to replace. |
| 17:42 |
est31 |
hmmmm, you know that minecraft is the second most popular game in history, after tetris |
| 17:42 |
est31 |
? |
| 17:42 |
hmmmm |
heh no |
| 17:42 |
est31 |
Its like saying avatar was a badly selling movie |
| 17:42 |
VanessaE |
I would have thought that Pac man would be at the top. |
| 17:43 |
|
damiel joined #minetest-dev |
| 17:43 |
est31 |
https://games.slashdot.org/story/16/06/03/0215243/minecraft-tops-100-million-sales |
| 17:43 |
VanessaE |
meh that doesn't really count without a per-capita figure, does it? |
| 17:44 |
VanessaE |
that's based entirely on sales/downloads |
| 17:45 |
est31 |
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_video_games#All_platforms |
| 17:45 |
VanessaE |
I'm already looking at that page. |
| 17:45 |
|
Megal joined #minetest-dev |
| 17:46 |
VanessaE |
as I figured, Pac Man took the top of the list for arcade games. |
| 17:48 |
est31 |
IDK, I have never played minecraft |
| 17:48 |
est31 |
and even if I wanted I didnt know how to start an open source clone of modern minecraft |
| 17:49 |
est31 |
I think if you call yourself "minecraft clone" and make sure almost every aspect is the same you just get more allegations into the direction |
| 17:49 |
est31 |
"minetest is pirated minecraft!" |
| 17:49 |
est31 |
etc |
| 17:49 |
est31 |
You can't simply clone a movie, book or song either |
| 17:49 |
VanessaE |
haters gonna hate |
| 17:50 |
VanessaE |
no matter how similar it is, someone will find fault |
| 17:51 |
est31 |
One must give people a reason to switch |
| 17:51 |
est31 |
and most people will just think "its free" |
| 17:51 |
VanessaE |
well that's easy. just make it better ;) |
| 17:51 |
VanessaE |
simple, right? |
| 17:51 |
est31 |
hehe |
| 17:52 |
VanessaE |
Fixer makes good points though |
| 17:52 |
hmmmm |
FREE as in FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEDOM |
| 17:52 |
VanessaE |
minetest_game needs some work, but not all that much. Too much change and you risk breaking things in ways that can't be easily fixed/worked around |
| 17:53 |
hmmmm |
GNU/Minetest, or as I've recently taken to calling it, GNU + Minetest |
| 17:53 |
est31 |
hmmmm, in fact that was the reason for me to using minetest the first place |
| 17:53 |
hmmmm |
freetards gonna freetard |
| 17:53 |
est31 |
hmmmm, dont interject |
| 17:53 |
celeron55 |
free, as in freedom from getting any money from development work d8-) |
| 17:53 |
hmmmm |
i love interjecting though |
| 17:55 |
hmmmm |
anyway i didn't say that minecraft is a poorly-selling game, i'm just saying that the fad is over and there are notably less developers than there was during its heyday |
| 17:55 |
Fixer |
VanessaE: it needs a lot of work, hunger, mobs, carts, environment sounds, weather *cough*, now it is just lifeless world, not even fucking wind :/ |
| 17:55 |
hmmmm |
less minecraft fans means less minetest fans |
| 17:55 |
hmmmm |
less minetest fans means less minetest developers |
| 17:56 |
hmmmm |
we have a huge manpower problem |
| 17:56 |
hmmmm |
don't get me wrong - there's no shortage of people who *want* to contribute, but they really aren't qualified |
| 17:56 |
est31 |
|
| 17:56 |
est31 |
^ |
| 17:56 |
Fixer |
merge everything, fix later *trollface* |
| 17:56 |
est31 |
https://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=linux |
| 17:56 |
hmmmm |
that's what happened with particlespawners |
| 17:57 |
est31 |
google confirms, linux is dying! |
| 17:57 |
Fixer |
est31: we are dying :( |
| 17:57 |
Fixer |
slowly |
| 17:57 |
Fixer |
damn |
| 17:57 |
VanessaE |
Fixer: I measure the amount of work it needs by the amount of new code that needs to be written and tested, not the number of features that are presumed missing. |
| 17:57 |
est31 |
ttps://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=minetest |
| 17:57 |
Fixer |
VanessaE: code already written, just merge it in and polish |
| 17:57 |
VanessaE |
and since all of what you describe already has mods that can do most of the work, then by definition most of the work of making MT "better" is already done. |
| 17:57 |
Fixer |
minetest is excuse world |
| 17:57 |
hmmmm |
everybody works on what they want to work on |
| 17:57 |
hmmmm |
that's another problem |
| 17:58 |
hmmmm |
there is no concentrated effort |
| 17:58 |
est31 |
minetest seems to be more popular in third world/developing countries |
| 17:58 |
est31 |
probably because they dont have so much money like us |
| 17:58 |
Fixer |
cdda is make game interesting, experiment, awesome features, minetest is boring, nah, don't want, too hard, bugz, there are no bug free software anyway, make it at least fun |
| 17:58 |
est31 |
and minecraft costs there as much as in western world |
| 17:58 |
hmmmm |
i'd expect minetest to be most popular in latin american countries |
| 17:59 |
hmmmm |
because the latin american people truly understand the concept of freedom as in libre |
| 17:59 |
hmmmm |
</stallman> |
| 17:59 |
est31 |
lol |
| 17:59 |
Fixer |
hmmmm: forget East Europe and Asia %) |
| 18:00 |
hmmmm |
I love stallman |
| 18:00 |
hmmmm |
I just wish he wasn't as myopic |
| 18:00 |
hmmmm |
he eats shits drinks and breathes free software |
| 18:00 |
Fixer |
open source software gives you freedom that you want, everybody else can just pirate MC and shut the fuck up |
| 18:00 |
Calinou |
you'd be surprised |
| 18:00 |
Fixer |
if they don't have money |
| 18:00 |
Calinou |
latin communities are often more supporting of free software than Americans |
| 18:00 |
Calinou |
for obvious reasons |
| 18:01 |
Calinou |
because America is all about ultra-liberalism [phoronix rolleyes] |
| 18:01 |
Fixer |
open source is about control of software, you have all control, you can modify it as you like |
| 18:01 |
Calinou |
but well, US is the home of Red hat |
| 18:01 |
hmmmm |
phoronix == "zomg 40 ms faster" |
| 18:01 |
Fixer |
proprietary software controls you |
| 18:01 |
est31 |
Calinou, and of linus torvalds |
| 18:01 |
est31 |
he could have lived in northern europe |
| 18:02 |
Fixer |
hmmmm: biggest phoronix problem, absence of good "Conclusions" |
| 18:02 |
est31 |
up there they are very supportive of free software as well |
| 18:02 |
hmmmm |
phoronix is one single person who does nothing but writes articles based on the results of benchmarks for a zillion different permutations of hardware/software configurations |
| 18:02 |
hmmmm |
like |
| 18:02 |
hmmmm |
shit |
| 18:02 |
Calinou |
and the usual "I work 100 hours a week! Donate pls!" |
| 18:02 |
Fixer |
because he can |
| 18:02 |
hmmmm |
he does NOTHING else all day except run benchmarks |
| 18:03 |
Fixer |
he can join ISIS, and well... but instead he contributes to this world |
| 18:03 |
hmmmm |
lol |
| 18:03 |
hmmmm |
he contributes flamewar fuel |
| 18:03 |
hmmmm |
ahh this is too offtopic |
| 18:04 |
hmmmm |
back to our regularly scheduled programming... |
| 18:04 |
Fixer |
no |
| 18:04 |
Fixer |
this is serious |
| 18:04 |
Fixer |
look at stall bug |
| 18:05 |
Fixer |
tenplus1 will bring some backtraces soon |
| 18:05 |
Fixer |
hope it helps |
| 18:08 |
Fixer |
you have not seen gentoo flamewars for 30 pages, thats good one, now it is boring "radeon vs nvidia", both crap anyway |
| 18:10 |
|
twoelk joined #minetest-dev |
| 18:11 |
Fixer |
flamewar is much weaker today, it seems all the craze went into reddit, have fun with your coding |
| 18:13 |
VanessaE |
you know, I don't get it. |
| 18:13 |
|
Zeitgeist_ joined #minetest-dev |
| 18:13 |
VanessaE |
this "stall" bug everyone is complaining about |
| 18:13 |
VanessaE |
how come I haven't seen anything nearly as serious on my setup? |
| 18:15 |
twoelk |
VanessaE: so lets find out how the setups differ :-) |
| 18:17 |
VanessaE |
well here'http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/17000277/ |
| 18:17 |
VanessaE |
gah. |
| 18:17 |
VanessaE |
who put enter right next to "'" ??!? |
| 18:17 |
VanessaE |
well here's my config for VE-Basic, which is my fastest general-purpose server: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/17000277/ |
| 18:17 |
VanessaE |
(the "Nostalgia" server is faster but only because it has like 20 defined nodes and no modern features) |
| 18:18 |
twoelk |
it might even be triggered by some diferent versions of localizations - or other obxcure reasons |
| 18:18 |
twoelk |
*obscure |
| 18:19 |
Fixer |
VanessaE: stall bug is probably not a one bug either, but many |
| 18:19 |
Fixer |
VanessaE: it is server lock up, you can run it on megaclaster and it will lock up and go in coma anyway |
| 18:19 |
twoelk |
fore example maybe a playername is accepted at joining but sends server into a loop when used in a mod such as areas because of some bad character |
| 18:22 |
twoelk |
or maybe old rogue vines trigger a massive neibourchecking cascade when specific type of client approaches |
| 18:23 |
twoelk |
actually I once had a real life car that wouldn't start because of an obscure totally unimportant never used light bulb being broken - took ages to find and made no sense at all |
| 18:25 |
VanessaE |
who can say for sure, but that basically never happens on my servers, except VE-Survival before the map reset (was due to technic mod being slow) |
| 18:25 |
VanessaE |
twoelk: shorted out? |
| 18:26 |
Fixer |
one thing I noticed: it could be database problem |
| 18:26 |
|
Miner_48er joined #minetest-dev |
| 18:27 |
Fixer |
if people go back to builds that worked earlier, and still have this problem, that means something was changed in database/worldfile/cache that now persists even old versions causing the lock up |
| 18:28 |
Fixer |
once you catch lock up, you can't fix it anymore simply going back (or you can but to a lot older builds, nobody did this, too bad, git bisect can help) |
| 18:29 |
|
damiel joined #minetest-dev |
| 18:34 |
|
Void7 joined #minetest-dev |
| 18:38 |
|
KaadmY joined #minetest-dev |
| 18:41 |
|
Zeitgeist_ joined #minetest-dev |
| 18:42 |
|
Puka joined #minetest-dev |
| 18:44 |
Hijiri |
I'm surprised how quickly new versions of minetest get into Debian testing |
| 18:45 |
Hijiri |
maybe it's easier to get a new version through when it's not a library or something that other packages are dependent on, or maybe the package mantainers are just more proactive |
| 18:45 |
|
damiel joined #minetest-dev |
| 18:46 |
MillersMan |
Hi, paramat and hmmmm: I have created a small list of whishes I have for Mapgen and BiomeManager's C++ API for further work on the Canyon Mapgen, see #4189 |
| 18:46 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4189 -- Requests for a extensible Mapgen and BiomeManager |
| 18:47 |
MillersMan |
I know that I'm currently just a third party developer working on a fork. but I'll like to stay up to date with the rest of minetest and would love to see the Mapgen to be integrated into the MT engine someday |
| 18:49 |
est31 |
Hijiri, we notify the maintainers directly at each release |
| 18:49 |
est31 |
glad to see you are impressed by the speed |
| 18:57 |
twoelk |
VanessaE: could be, never understood it |
| 19:08 |
|
edgrey joined #minetest-dev |
| 19:10 |
|
paramat joined #minetest-dev |
| 19:10 |
MillersMan |
hmm, celeron: just an idea i got, maybe completely stupid but maybe its worth a try: plugins could be provided as llvm bitcode, this would limit plugins to be developed in languages that have an llvm-compatible compiler but at least c and c++ are supported with clang |
| 19:11 |
MillersMan |
hmmmm i mean |
| 19:11 |
hmmmm |
a big reason why nothing ever gets done in minetest is a lack of focus |
| 19:12 |
sfan5 |
MillersMan: and people are supposed to install a compiler to install mods/plugins? |
| 19:12 |
hmmmm |
i don't plan on doing anything with the fast plugin idea - that's for somebody else |
| 19:12 |
est31 |
<MillersMan> hmm, celeron: just an idea i got, maybe completely stupid but maybe its worth a try: plugins could be provided as llvm bitcode, this would limit plugins to be developed in languages that have an llvm-compatible compiler but at least c and c++ are supported with clang |
| 19:12 |
est31 |
Theoretically this isnt required |
| 19:12 |
est31 |
just add a C api |
| 19:12 |
est31 |
done |
| 19:12 |
hmmmm |
i'm totally focused on the mapgen for right now |
| 19:13 |
|
Lunatrius` joined #minetest-dev |
| 19:13 |
hmmmm |
MillersMan I want to merge this https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/4065 could you take a look and respond to the comments soon? |
| 19:14 |
MillersMan |
est31: but even with a C-api we still have to many different operating systems that need to be supported, not to speak about linking problems with external dependencies (wrong libc version for IO-support etc) |
| 19:14 |
sfan5 |
forcing users to install a compiler framework isn't much better |
| 19:15 |
MillersMan |
hmmmm: yes, i was already working on the new 4061 implementation, but that can wait, will fix 4065 |
| 19:15 |
est31 |
My main reason against a C api is that then mods can be written in any language on the world |
| 19:15 |
twoelk |
regarding mapgen, I think water is weighted wrong at the moment. now it seems to be just random decoration while it should rather be an terrain changing element of mapgen |
| 19:15 |
est31 |
meanind that in the end there is too much fragmentation |
| 19:15 |
sfan5 |
also C mods can't offer Lua APIs |
| 19:16 |
hmmmm |
twolek: ?? |
| 19:16 |
sfan5 |
extensibility would be impossible with a C++ mesecons |
| 19:16 |
sfan5 |
(well actually you could allow those apis, but it'd be way harder) |
| 19:18 |
MillersMan |
just a code-style question: having member implementation in different order than their declarations isn't a problem if it's for having private declarations separated from public ones, right? |
| 19:18 |
hmmmm |
anyway, earlier celeron made a very valid point. i think it would be useful to have a focused discussion about what biomes should be and so on in order to come to a final decision on what the interface ought to look like since this impacts quite a bit. |
| 19:18 |
hmmmm |
could everybody who is interested in the mapgen and/or biomes join #minetest-mapgen, please? |
| 19:19 |
est31 |
lol |
| 19:19 |
paramat |
hi hmmmm > "it's deceptive but reverse compatibility is a guarantee because biomes have been made documented in lua_api.txt. despite me advising against it, it was made documented and now we have a contract to uphold with regard to the interface" nope and nope, see #3407 you made no comments and probably weren't active then. many things are documented before being stable |
| 19:19 |
twoelk |
something like hightmap first, then water placement and resulting effects, then biomes, then border bioms including those needed for water changes to biomes such as beaches, river banks, swamps, whatever |
| 19:19 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3407 -- Lua_api.txt: Add documentation for biome definition by paramat |
| 19:19 |
paramat |
people were desperate for documentation so i added it |
| 19:19 |
hmmmm |
MillersMan: that's fine |
| 19:20 |
paramat |
the biome API is not stable and can be changed, and is :) |
| 19:20 |
hmmmm |
paramat: not stable as in new things could be added but not removed |
| 19:20 |
hmmmm |
peoples mods shouldn't break |
| 19:20 |
hmmmm |
and i did say on numerous occasions why biomes weren't documented yet and why they shouldn't be |
| 19:21 |
hmmmm |
maybe not at the exact time you wrote that patch adding the documentation |
| 19:21 |
hmmmm |
in any case |
| 19:21 |
paramat |
ok |
| 19:21 |
hmmmm |
like i said, could everybody interested in the mapgen discussion join #minetest-mapgen?? |
| 19:21 |
hmmmm |
we need more focus |
| 19:22 |
|
edgrey joined #minetest-dev |
| 19:22 |
MillersMan |
hmmmm: should i replace the whole PR, or is it ok to add the fixes in a new commit that will be squashed on merge? |
| 19:22 |
paramat |
i am focussed |
| 19:22 |
hmmmm |
the standard revision process is to either create a new commit in that branch or amend the old commit |
| 19:23 |
hmmmm |
follow-up commits in a PR that are clearly revisions to the original change do get squashed before merge |
| 19:23 |
paramat |
really modders don't mind too much if biome definitions change, it's not stable so we are free to make any change we want |
| 19:23 |
MillersMan |
ok, thanks |
| 19:36 |
|
rubenwardy joined #minetest-dev |
| 19:40 |
|
Tmanyo joined #minetest-dev |
| 19:47 |
|
Void7 joined #minetest-dev |
| 19:52 |
VanessaE |
one thing that needs fixed is this damn issue with people ending up at 0,0,0 when they sign in |
| 19:53 |
est31 |
the problem about these issues is is that they are barely reproducible |
| 19:53 |
VanessaE |
I know. |
| 20:04 |
|
electrodude512 joined #minetest-dev |
| 20:08 |
Fixer |
VanessaE: also, when you have noclip and fly and at server start go down into -50, easily reproducable |
| 20:15 |
paramat |
0,0,0 spawn means spawn search failed, were custom noise parameters used? |
| 20:15 |
paramat |
or a weird mapgen? |
| 20:16 |
VanessaE |
paramat: mgv6, and I have static_spawnpoint set on all my servers. |
| 20:18 |
paramat |
weird, dunno why then |
| 20:23 |
VanessaE |
it's an ollllld bug. |
| 20:31 |
VanessaE |
it's not hard to work around at least. just build a nice 3x3x3 room surrounding 0,0,0, make it look presentable, protect it, and give instructions on a sign on how to get back to the real spawn |
| 20:31 |
VanessaE |
(and of course make sure it's positioned so that the user "falls" to the floor of the room on arrival) |
| 20:37 |
Fixer |
VanessaE: or even dumber, download tp1 "teleport potion", place it in 0 0 0 to teleport back to spawn, done! |
| 20:37 |
Fixer |
or similar mod |
| 20:43 |
twoelk |
if at undisired place got to somewhere else = worldedge mod |
| 20:44 |
Fixer |
!tell ShadowNinja what do you think about this jump jiggle - https://imgur.com/UmsgUPt ? acceptable? pr 3810 |
| 20:44 |
ShadowBot |
Fixer: O.K. |
| 21:12 |
|
Void7 joined #minetest-dev |
| 21:29 |
paramat |
climbing stairs in a restricted space will always be rough |
| 21:40 |
VanessaE |
looks normal to m,e |
| 21:40 |
VanessaE |
me* |
| 21:40 |
VanessaE |
you're hitting your head as you climb up :P |
| 21:40 |
paramat |
exactly |
| 21:41 |
paramat |
the real test is an almost smooth and continuous run up a 45 degree hill slope |
| 21:41 |
VanessaE |
can't be done |
| 21:42 |
VanessaE |
well not without an ass-ton of collision boxes like how nodebox-based slopes used to be done |
| 21:42 |
paramat |
i mean a fast sequence of jumps |
| 21:42 |
paramat |
as currently |
| 21:43 |
VanessaE |
oh |
| 22:08 |
hmmmm |
oh |
| 22:08 |
hmmmm |
millersMan: vi should NOT be int! |
| 22:08 |
hmmmm |
array indexes should be unsigned |
| 22:09 |
hmmmm |
so at least u32, preferably size_t though |
| 22:09 |
hmmmm |
size_t is the proper type for array indexes |
| 22:14 |
MillersMan |
of course |
| 22:14 |
MillersMan |
i've also dropped the argument em, as it could be easily fetched from vm, i don't think this is a real performance overhead compared to the improved readability |
| 22:15 |
hmmmm |
well |
| 22:16 |
hmmmm |
i'm willing to bet the compiler isn't going to optimize that and it'll be calculated 6400 times per chunk |
| 22:16 |
hmmmm |
you should probably leave it in |
| 22:16 |
hmmmm |
better yet, you should test to see for yourself |
| 22:17 |
hmmmm |
TimeTaker t("sdfg", NULL, PRECISION_MICRO); ... printf("updateLiquids: %uus\n", t.stop()); |
| 22:17 |
MillersMan |
i'll leave it in even though it should be optimizable as its just a const call and i'm not changing vm at all (ok, but maybe there is another non-const call) |
| 22:18 |
paramat |
btw i'm ok with 'water top' and 'depth water top' being removed. currently ice sheet in tundra ocean is so thick it often hits seabed anyway |
| 22:18 |
hmmmm |
see |
| 22:18 |
hmmmm |
there's your problem |
| 22:18 |
hmmmm |
"currently ice sheet in tundra ocean is so thick it often hits seabed anyway" |
| 22:19 |
hmmmm |
the biome API was not created for minetest game |
| 22:21 |
paramat |
i know, i mean, do you think an upper liquid layer is still necessary? |
| 22:24 |
paramat |
hm maybe .. something to consider |
| 22:24 |
|
Miner_48er joined #minetest-dev |
| 22:25 |
hmmmm |
i really don't know |
| 22:25 |
hmmmm |
how do you know what other people are going to do with their mods |
| 22:27 |
hmmmm |
btw millersman |
| 22:28 |
hmmmm |
i just tested it on clang 3.8 - if your function is marked as inline, it doesn't make any difference in the output if you make the argument const ref or by value |
| 22:28 |
hmmmm |
https://paste.fedoraproject.org/374657/07933314/ |
| 22:29 |
|
STHGOM joined #minetest-dev |
| 22:30 |
MillersMan |
yes it's just from the style guide at my work, we always declare everything as const and pass by reference if it is more then 32 bit |
| 22:32 |
MillersMan |
imho having all variables const is a good way to ensure that nothing is changed accidentially, on the other side code that might have such changes might need some cleanup |
| 22:32 |
hmmmm |
ahh i see |
| 22:32 |
hmmmm |
for me, it's 64 bit |
| 22:33 |
hmmmm |
okay then you're right, 32 bit users do still exist in this universe |
| 22:33 |
hmmmm |
you should make it const ref |
| 22:35 |
MillersMan |
it shouldn't matter at all, thanks to inline and i'm not sure that pushing another 16 bits doesn't make that much of a difference, especially as it could be passed in a register |
| 22:37 |
MillersMan |
i leave it without const ref, it doesn't matter thanks to inline and all other methods pass it this way too |
| 22:39 |
MillersMan |
i've updated the PR |
| 22:41 |
|
lisac joined #minetest-dev |
| 22:49 |
Fixer |
nice |
| 22:49 |
Fixer |
as always i compile my builds with it |
| 22:50 |
Fixer |
4065? |
| 23:06 |
MillersMan |
Fixer: yes, only 4065, the mapgen fixes/performance improvements |
| 23:06 |
MillersMan |
i've already started fixing of 4061 |
| 23:07 |
MillersMan |
but for today its enough |
| 23:07 |
MillersMan |
good night |
| 23:08 |
|
paramat left #minetest-dev |
| 23:48 |
|
Tmanyo joined #minetest-dev |
| 23:59 |
|
xunto joined #minetest-dev |
