Time Nick Message 00:00 est31 any stable version user cant connect with the nightly builds anymore 00:00 est31 and vice versa 00:00 est31 so thats not really what we want, no? 00:00 est31 and man it should be dead simple to write a socket protocol where you distinguish between minetest udp protocol and sctp tunnelled over udp 00:01 est31 just check the first few bytes 00:01 est31 most likely sctp has some magic number 00:03 VanessaE fwiw, est31, I run my servers on 0.4.14 stable (and plan to keep it there unless there's a huge reason to change) 00:03 est31 VanessaE, you ran on git builds in the past, no? 00:03 VanessaE yes. 00:03 est31 what was the reason to change? 00:03 VanessaE but if you guys are thinking of breaking old-version compat, now's a good time to do it 00:04 OldCoder Calinou, old worlds are not there to be deprecated 00:04 OldCoder People spent time creating them 00:04 VanessaE oh, I just updated from time to time, and when 0.4.14 was released, I updated again and then decided to just stop there. 00:04 OldCoder Breaking compatibility is not something to be done lightly 00:04 VanessaE figured the server engine's good enough for anything I'd want to throw at it now. 00:04 est31 OldCoder, I think Calinou "only" proposes us to not care about API and network compatibility 00:04 OldCoder Yes 00:04 est31 he still wants there to be map compat 00:05 OldCoder Read that part 00:05 OldCoder This is not a University project 00:05 OldCoder This is a system that includes live worlds 00:05 OldCoder A history that goes back nearly 6 years now 00:05 VanessaE old map compat is definitely required, but old-client compat, bleh. 00:05 OldCoder Yes and no 00:05 OldCoder Remember Redcrab 00:05 VanessaE there's no reason to support anything older than 0.4.12 or thereabouts 00:05 OldCoder There are special cases 00:05 OldCoder ^ 00:06 OldCoder A layered protocol, though... that sounds interesting 00:06 VanessaE there's also no reason not to update your server software periodically 00:06 OldCoder Is it out of the question? 00:06 OldCoder Do that, and perhaps Proller's stuff can be rolled back into main 00:06 est31 no 00:06 est31 wont happen 00:07 OldCoder What is practical, then? 00:07 est31 without proller changing the license there is nothing we can do 00:07 OldCoder Ah, that is separate 00:07 OldCoder From a technical perspective, could network code be improved while allowing fallback to legacy? 00:07 est31 and changing to GPL means giving up play store 00:07 OldCoder See above 00:07 est31 OldCoder, yes 00:07 OldCoder Put aside Proller 00:07 * OldCoder likes the idea of having fast and reliable *and* legacy 00:07 est31 That's the thing you CAN do it 00:08 est31 And where its totally impossible in fact I don't insist on it 00:08 OldCoder There has not really been a network person for a while, though 00:08 est31 just where it is possible but where people dont want to implement backwards compat 00:08 OldCoder So it has not moved forward 00:08 est31 The network is a very sensitive part 00:08 OldCoder Yep 00:09 OldCoder Object lesson in that recently 00:09 OldCoder Finicky is the right word 00:09 OldCoder But a two tier protocol 00:09 OldCoder could move away from that 00:09 VanessaE est31: and that "sensitivity" is why I suggest that now is as good a time as any to revamp the whole damn thing 00:09 VanessaE the server/modding engine is pretty good these days, maps work well for the most part, current clients seem to have no trouble rendering what the server provides, etc. etc 00:10 VanessaE (where whole damn thing of course just means the network stack) 00:11 est31 Well the network is layered 00:12 est31 you can revamp the whole connection.cpp thing without affecting much of the higher levels 00:12 est31 that's why its also so easy to provide backwards compat here 00:15 OldCoder Hm. About that "break API compatibility" bit... no way. But backwards compatible for network is a thumbs up. 00:15 VanessaE OldCoder: is anyone talking about breaking modding API compatibility? 00:15 VanessaE I thought this discussion was entirely about the network stuff, not modding 00:16 OldCoder VanessaE, it was apparently about API as well; scroll up 00:16 OldCoder But right now about networking 00:16 * OldCoder was responding to a comment about breaking API 00:16 VanessaE *shrug* I don't see anything about that. 00:16 est31 I think calinou said that he wants to break everything except the map 00:16 OldCoder OldCoder, I think Calinou "only" proposes us to not care about API and network compatibility 00:17 OldCoder way too much IMO 00:17 OldCoder only map format really needs to be compatible 00:17 OldCoder that's about it 00:17 VanessaE Calinou's comment isn't about the API 00:17 OldCoder Then est31 misunderstood. If this is solely about networking, there seems to be consensus... 00:18 OldCoder Is anybody, even Calinou, objecting to the notion of a new protocol with legacy fallback? 00:18 est31 Calinou's comment gave that impression 00:18 est31 well either way 00:18 OldCoder I think you'll have consensus 00:18 VanessaE now, old-mod-API compat, that's a different matter. if you were talking about dropping some old deprecated feature from the 0.4.0 days (assuming anything still exists) that's fine, imho 00:18 VanessaE but one subject at a time 00:18 OldCoder Separate discussion 00:19 OldCoder No intention to break momentum on current issue 00:19 OldCoder Question is 00:19 est31 for example there is the send_pre_v25_init function 00:19 OldCoder Does the project have one or more network people? 00:19 est31 OldCoder, nrz originally did lots of network changes 00:19 OldCoder Hm; not interested in a rewrite at this point? 00:19 est31 And I did some network work in the past as well 00:20 VanessaE I'm sure sapier could be convinced to weigh in as well. 00:20 est31 the new v45 init protocol comes from me 00:20 OldCoder Will Sapier return, though? But, est31, you indicate there is plenty of network expertise after all 00:21 est31 0x4f457403 00:21 est31 if a packet starts with this value 00:21 est31 we know its legacy protocol 00:21 est31 if it starts with sth different we know its the new protocol 00:22 est31 all we need to do is to prevent packets from the new protocol to start with this value 00:22 OldCoder All packets? Or just before initial connection? 00:22 * OldCoder is not familiar with the protocol 00:24 est31 hrmm initial connection should be enough 00:24 est31 or we just have two separate ports 00:25 est31 one for normal udp one for sctp 00:25 est31 but this makes things messy 00:25 est31 (for the users) 00:25 est31 and server owners 00:25 est31 better only have one port 00:28 Fixer trying to build debug build on ubuntu, exe goes in /usr/local/bin ? 00:28 Fixer dhlocal error :/ 00:28 est31 Fixer, do sudo make install 00:28 est31 it puts everything to the right spots 00:29 Fixer est31: why don't you guys also build -debug builds in ppa? 00:29 est31 Fixer, simple reason, no idea how to do it 00:29 est31 if you find out, tell me :) 00:29 Fixer est31: i'm trying to make debug package for tenplus1 for gdb, fails on packaging deb 00:29 est31 and partly missing motivation 00:36 Fixer ok, i need to reconfigure my cmake, will try again tommorrow 00:36 Fixer have fun 00:41 est31 going too 01:12 hmmmm [08:06 PM] Do that, and perhaps Proller's stuff can be rolled back into main 01:12 hmmmm no 01:12 hmmmm "proller's stuff" is enet and i had a serious look at enet 01:13 hmmmm i decided that it's not useful for our purposes since it does not provide any actual advantages over TCP 01:13 hmmmm if you're okay with requiring reliable packets to have in-order delivery, then I would prefer TCP over enet 100 times over 01:13 hmmmm also I hear that enet has poor IPv6 support 01:14 hmmmm that's a no-go either 01:14 hmmmm so, please, drop the "let's just use enet" meme. i'm getting tired of having to periodically re-defend the no-enet decision. 01:15 hmmmm and i'm also tired of stressing out about the chance of somebody implementing an enet network backend, making a PR for it, and then everybody getting upset when I don't agree with it 01:15 hmmmm and then having know-nothing users shouting "HMMMM IS HORRIBLE FOR THE PROJECT! HE KEEPS MINETEST IN THE DARK AGES!" 01:22 rubenwardy Relevant: http://gafferongames.com/networking-for-game-programmers/udp-vs-tcp/ 01:22 rubenwardy esp "Wait? Why can’t I use both UDP and TCP?" 01:22 rubenwardy annoyingly that isn't a proper heading so can't be linked to 01:22 rubenwardy Not sure what the opinion is of this 01:23 rubenwardy " TCP tends to induce packet loss in UDP packets" 01:23 rubenwardy http://www.isoc.org/INET97/proceedings/F3/F3_1.HTM 01:28 hmmmm that is not true anymore 01:39 kahrl has anyone looked into usrsctp? https://github.com/sctplab/usrsctp 01:40 kahrl it claims to support unordered reliable delivery and ipv6 01:52 OldCoder hmmmm, it was just an example; the part that caught my attention was the possibility of a dual mode 01:53 OldCoder A new protocol with fallback to legacy 01:53 hmmmm i'd really prefer to just figure out what the biggest problem is with our current UDP *implementation* and fix that 01:53 OldCoder Making a clean slate possible, or at least opening up options, while not breaking everything 01:53 OldCoder Is that possible? 01:53 OldCoder I mean, finding a specific issue with the current code 01:53 * OldCoder assume Sapier might know 01:54 OldCoder I wrote to Sapier recently 01:54 OldCoder and asked him to comment here 01:54 OldCoder He has not come yet 01:54 OldCoder assumes * 05:46 hmmmm PTAL https://github.com/kwolekr/minetest/commit/7f3ba4e0ae546ed7f3dd188006200929fe9e455c 05:46 hmmmm @ Zeno` this is what you requested in the original biomegen pr 05:48 Zeno` yeah 4294967296 ought to be enough for anyone I agree 05:48 Zeno` does it impact existing worlds or mapseeds out there in the wild? 05:49 Zeno` I guess not based on the comment in the src code 05:49 hmmmm ? 05:50 hmmmm you mean the comment I added? 05:50 Zeno` yeah 05:50 hmmmm it's never hurt anybody, it's just that people's seeds aren't as random as they think they are 05:50 Zeno` yep 05:50 Zeno` umm, you spelled entropy wrong 05:51 Zeno` other than that I'm fine with it 05:51 hmmmm whooops 05:51 hmmmm okay fixing 05:51 hmmmm pushing 06:17 hmmmm https://github.com/kwolekr/minetest/commit/8ed467d438634ffe45806a6a6a325bb00774d651 trivial commit (documentation fix), pushing in 20 minutes... 07:02 hmmmm https://github.com/kwolekr/minetest/commit/109c7e334920f859068aeda31463f644e6b69895 another trivial one (define a new typedef) 07:02 hmmmm pushing in 20 minutes 09:15 tenplus1 hi folks... 09:15 tenplus1 question: if map loads a chunk, and 1 node is broken... it knows node type, but paramtype2 is glitched... will it replace that node using default rotation or freak out ? 09:17 paramat no idea 09:18 kahrl the server doesn't typically care about param2 in bulk node data 09:18 kahrl it does set param2 when a user places a node, but that's about it 09:18 tenplus1 am trying to figure ways that may crash server/client when player is inside a specific area that's borked 09:18 kahrl the client cares about param2 when rendering stuff, but it doesn't have the authority to change map data 09:20 kahrl do you have a backtrace? 09:21 paramat only a verbose debug so far 09:21 tenplus1 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4151 09:21 tenplus1 at end, full debug.txt with verbose is on forum as zip (link provided) 09:22 paramat i looked through the full debug it was full of '[ConnectionSend]: con(5/1)RE-SENDING timed-out RELIABLE' and '[ConnectionReceive]: con(5/1)WARNING: ACKed packet not in outgoing queue' 09:22 naltamur Hello, Can I become a moderator of Italian forum of minetest? 09:23 paramat those messages come in multiples right from server start 09:23 tenplus1 it's just weird that specific areas of map set off the stall glitch, and I've bullet-proof all mods using metadata incase something there was corrupt... am thinking of other settings inside nodes now 09:25 Krock naltamur, yes sure. Simply donate $1000 to me and I'll grant you that wish 09:25 tenplus1 lol 09:26 naltamur Krock: okay :) 09:26 kahrl mmh, what I said wasn't entirely right. The server looks at param2 in some cases, for example when computing the collision boxes of facedir nodes 09:27 paramat verbose debug is here (big) https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?p=219753#p219753 09:27 paramat of course we need a debug build gdb trace 09:28 paramat fixer might be making a build for you 09:29 tenplus1 kewl... but yeah, anything stored inside a node, I take it the engine has error correction for any failures 09:33 paramat anyway, no point spending time on that debug.txt, the debug build gdb will be the thing to study 09:34 paramat and the recent engine commit has made it worse? 09:37 paramat if so it could be reverted 09:37 tenplus1 using 0.4.14 stable we sometimes got up to 12 hours ininterrupted play on server before stall glitch happened.... with yesterday's build we're lucky to make it past the hour 09:38 paramat ok can you document this somewhere on github and request a revert is considered? 09:39 tenplus1 will paste info at end of github issue already psoted 09:39 paramat fine 09:39 tenplus1 n fact, it's already there :) 09:39 tenplus1 the paragraph above the debug.txt clip 09:50 tenplus1 meanwhile I'll bullet-proof entities next 09:50 tenplus1 thx for help :) 10:57 paramat hmmmm i've added some comments about our general mapgen plans in #4185 10:57 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4185 -- Biomes: Add biome-definable riverbed material by paramat 10:58 paramat can anyone review? hmmmm disapproves but i feel this should go ahead 10:58 paramat if only as a temporary thing 11:17 celeron55 that part of the code is so squishy it literally doesn't matter at all what happens to it while something to possibly replace it is being designed 11:18 celeron55 nothing saved, no protocols, just some lua fields, really only used by core mapgens 11:20 celeron55 and sane defaults happen when compatibility breas 11:20 celeron55 breaks* 11:24 celeron55 i don't know if it's something in itself that players want but that's what the code looks like 11:26 celeron55 the only opinion i really have about any of this stuff is that river water is ridiculous no matter how it's generated, because it doesn't work like normal water 11:26 celeron55 it's like some slimey substance 11:27 celeron55 i mean, regular water is quite slimy too, but river water goes too far in its slimyness 11:28 celeron55 of course this has nothing to do with the issue at hand but this was the day i said it, now 8) 11:38 Calinou Calinou, what would you say if 90% of your players can't connect to minetest CTF? 11:38 Calinou personally I wouldn't care 11:38 Calinou I don't earn money every time someone joins my server 11:41 paramat ok thanks c55 11:42 paramat river water is the way it is for good reason though 11:42 paramat try replacing it with range 8 renewable water and see 11:42 paramat there's no other way to make rivers above sea level 11:43 paramat it could perhaps be range 3, as long as river slopes don't get too steep 11:44 paramat i'll consider this 11:47 paramat in fact i have seen some glitchy water slopes with range 2 it might be too short 11:57 paramat obviously depends on max river steepness in mgvalleys 12:00 paramat please can anyone review #4163 ? 12:00 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4163 -- Sky: Darker, bluer sky and improved horizon haze at night by paramat 12:02 paramat nore sfan5 or any mtgame devs, please are you able to review game#1076 ? 12:02 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/1076 -- Fire: Ignite tnt, gunpowder, permanent flame above coalblock by paramat 12:03 celeron55 well 2->3 isn't going to fix it; it probably needs some new system some day 12:09 sfan5 paramat: game1076 code looks good to me 12:09 Fixer who is responsibe for daily minetest ppa builds? 12:09 paramat ok thanks 12:10 paramat well, normal water is ridiculous too, no problem 12:10 Fixer it seems that installing `pkg-create-dbgsym` package on ubuntu can automatically create symbols for debug in separate .ddeb when normal .deb is build daily 12:18 paramat will merge games 1076 and 1115 in a moment 12:18 paramat game#1115 12:18 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/1115 -- Farming: allow LBM's for other mods as well. by sofar 12:30 paramat merging 12:47 paramat done 14:23 Fixer https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4187 16:03 hmmmm celeron55: it's deceptive but reverse compatibility is a guarantee because biomes have been made documented in lua_api.txt 16:04 hmmmm despite me advising against it, it was made documented and now we have a contract to uphold with regard to the interface 16:04 hmmmm all of a sudden, something that shouldn't be a big deal is now a big deal because of that one detail 16:07 celeron55 well you can leave some part experimental until later 16:08 hmmmm there are a surprising number of mods that actually use biomes and rely on them 16:09 hmmmm i think modders jump on new features because they like new shiny things and they have nothing else to do with their time other than ensuring their mod is as shiny as possible 16:10 hmmmm i don't want to turn them off from ever wanting to use biomes because the whole interface is a minefield though 16:10 hmmmm "oh it changes every week, at this point who cares about biomes, i'll just use X-lib which always worked just fine" 16:10 est31 An API being unstable doesnt mean it shouldnt be documented 16:11 est31 it can be documented but with a note "this is unstable" 16:11 hmmmm i think a point we miss is that many parts of the core API is in active competition with preexisting mod libraries that do the same sort of thing 16:12 hmmmm there needs to be a clear and compelling reason to go through the extra BS of total instability 16:12 celeron55 well, getting development done while having enough stability is kind of a balancing act; i really don't know this part well enough to actually decide anything about it 16:12 celeron55 i mean, this part of the api 16:13 hmmmm well what i recently did was add a selection for multiple types of biome systems much like i did with multiple mapgens 16:14 hmmmm part of the reason is because i don't know what's best either, it's all an experiment, but we have other people depending on this at the same time 16:15 hmmmm part of me wants to leave paramat do whatever he wants to his own biome system, and have a separate more experimental version. sounds good in theory, but i think we'll have a new fragmentation problem within the same piece of software 16:16 hmmmm and modders won't enjoy having to support them all 16:25 celeron55 what is the approach currently being taken in making a single improved biome api? 16:27 hmmmm negotiation 16:28 celeron55 could there be an api documentation draft that you and paramat and others could develop as a team, before someone is allowed to develop it and block all changes to upstream? 16:29 celeron55 going code first here certainly doesn't seem wise 16:31 VanessaE celeron55: I assume hmmmm's "X lib" comment is a reference to stuff like biome_lib, and if that's the case why not start with the API doc I wrote for it? 16:31 celeron55 you could even ask modders on #minetest-project 16:31 hmmmm #minetest-project?? 16:31 hmmmm VanessaE: I'll have to take a look... 16:31 celeron55 for comments on the api before implementing 16:31 hmmmm I know, it's just that I've never heard of that channel until now 16:31 VanessaE hmmmm: https://github.com/minetest-mods/biome_lib/blob/master/API.txt 16:32 hmmmm the reason why i've been doing this code-first is because i want to get a feel of what is going to work and what won't 16:33 VanessaE I'm sure a few things there are...obscure or over-engineered, but it generally works well, if slower than an in-engine solution. 16:33 celeron55 oh, i guess you weren't around at the time when it was created or something 16:33 hmmmm one peculiar thing about the biome api is that the design of the interface dictates much of how the biome system will work 16:34 celeron55 here is OldCoder's write-up about it; it's been running very succesfully since february http://minetest.org/proposal.html 16:36 hmmmm lol 16:36 hmmmm > including 12 year olds doing their first Pikachu block 16:36 hmmmm that just about sums up minetest 16:38 Krock Minetest, safe for work? This is a paradoxon.. work != playing Minetest 16:39 hmmmm i work on minetest when i'm supposed to be doing job work too often 16:39 hmmmm it really isn't safe for work at all. productivity killer 16:39 Krock but we Minetesters are happy :P 16:39 hmmmm christ vanessae's biomelib thing is big 16:39 hmmmm i can't take all that in right now 16:39 VanessaE yup. 16:40 VanessaE it's had a lot of time to evolve 16:41 VanessaE (ironic really, as the actual code is only 737 lines, 28kB :) ) 16:41 hmmmm sounds to me like much of this and the associated plantlife mod is a lua-only prototype for biomes/schematics/decorations/etc. 16:41 VanessaE yes basically 16:42 celeron55 does there exist an estimate about how much slower it is than a C++ implementation would be? 16:42 celeron55 of the same thing, that is 16:43 VanessaE celeron55: a C++ implementation would be rather faster, I'd guess 4x at least, since the engine wouldn't have to go back over its own terrain to "evaluate" it as biome_lib does. 16:43 VanessaE (4x over using luajit that is) 16:43 hmmmm the point of having a version in the core is to reduce fragmentation 16:43 celeron55 i'm just wondering; of course something like it should be in the engine 16:43 hmmmm not necessarily having anything to do with speed 16:44 hmmmm i can't really do a whole lot of discussion about this without paramat around (or, well, somebody else who is actually interested) 16:44 celeron55 or, well; i guess not *really* of course; i think i would go with lua-only if it was as fast as C++; but it never is 16:45 hmmmm maybe all of this is a farce 16:45 hmmmm maybe we should be focusing our effort on finding a way to make plugins that are as fast as native engine code 16:46 VanessaE honestly, the only way that's gonna happen is if you supply gcc or something along with MT (or make it a dependency) 16:46 hmmmm because right now i honestly feel like i'm overdeveloping an obsolete rendering pipeline development model 16:46 celeron55 well, buildat does that 8) 16:46 VanessaE celeron55: oh, well that's not so far-fetched as I thought then :D 16:47 celeron55 nice >100MB download for windows 16:47 VanessaE well, 16:47 hmmmm how does buildat do this? 16:47 VanessaE what's the smallest compiler out there that could *just* do the job? 16:47 celeron55 well if you go with C, you get quite small compilers 16:47 celeron55 but buildat literally uses a bundled mingw-w64 16:48 celeron55 for C++ 16:48 nore well, again, it depends on whether we want the mods to be as fast as the engine 16:48 celeron55 it can be left out for playing only on other servers though 16:48 nore if we do, then we need an optimizing compiler 16:48 hmmmm it's the natural next step 16:48 nore and these are already not so small 16:49 hmmmm right now, the mapgen and all associated functions are large building blocks that i equivocate to the rendering pipeline 16:49 hmmmm fast, sure, but monolithic. you can have any color you want as long as it's black 16:50 celeron55 i'd say, maybe wait for WebAssembly or something to come up, and then use it or some copycat technology inspired by it 16:50 hmmmm the majority of time is being spent in adding new options or features 16:50 hmmmm whereas the next generation technology would be making a script for everything, i.e. the minetest equivalent to shaders 16:51 hmmmm but what made shaders popular is that they were no-cost and in many cases faster 16:52 hmmmm so in addition to making the modders happier because they'd have more control over their mod, we'd be happier too because there's more free time to be spent on other things instead of exposing more options through the lua api 16:53 hmmmm so, i think having a plugin system like buildat's would be another Big Feature that would make a large visible improvement for minetest 16:54 hmmmm i understand the point of buildat now too 16:54 nore I agree 16:54 celeron55 i wouldn't object it if somebody published an experimental version of minetest with C language server-side mods or something; there are small compilers like http://bellard.org/tcc/ 16:55 hmmmm it's an experimental playground you could freely develop and add radical new concepts without disrupting anybody else 16:55 celeron55 it's inherently not safe though 16:55 celeron55 as are precompiled binary mods 16:55 hmmmm this is a stupid video game for 12 year olds though 16:55 hmmmm why are we so focused on stability and so on 16:56 celeron55 well, you are the one most focused on that 16:56 VanessaE hmmmm: because 30 pecent of the userbase isn't kids. 16:56 celeron55 i can be pretty laid back as long as development is getting done 16:56 VanessaE and even then, kids still hate unstable stuff (they just tolerate it better than we do) 16:57 hmmmm yeah perhaps so 16:57 hmmmm MT has come a long way 16:57 hmmmm i remember when it used to crash every 5 minutes 16:57 Calinou >MT has come a long way 16:57 celeron55 anyway, i appreciate it that people now get buildat 8) it's certainly a way of thinking that might be useful in the future 16:57 Calinou yeah, from 0.3... where it was very lightweight and stable :( 16:57 VanessaE heh 16:57 Calinou ran at 60 FPS on most systems 16:57 Calinou today's Minetest almost never runs at 60 FPS on Windows for unknown reasons 16:58 hmmmm yeah despite all the optimizations it seems like minetest is still slower 16:58 hmmmm the rendering code doesn't *do* a whole lot more either 16:58 Calinou if I had time I'd work on my own voxel project, but certainly lack the skills 16:58 celeron55 let's check my rendering optimizations checklist; now where is it... 16:58 Calinou I'm going to have trouble creating a FPS already :) 16:59 celeron55 hmm, none of these have been taken care of i guess https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?p=133347#p133347 16:59 hmmmm i really hate saying this but i almost guarantee it was caused by the less-experienced chefs cooking up their own dishes *cough RBA* 16:59 celeron55 no gain for no effort, obviously 16:59 VanessaE Calinou: because there are number of CPU-bound things MT has going on that just weren't used much in the past, like entities and texture compositing 17:00 Calinou also server being very unoptimized, and network protocol having issues 17:00 VanessaE even if you have a badass GPU, a middle-of-the road CPU will kill your FPS 17:00 hmmmm celeron55: the texture atlas is item #1 there. i notice your PR has the texture atlas re-added. why can't you split this out? 17:00 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1 -- GlowStone code by anonymousAwesome 17:00 Calinou well, i7-4720HQ can't sustain 60 FPS on Minetest on Windows 17:00 Calinou that's a modern quad-core 17:00 Calinou laptop CPU but still 17:01 celeron55 hmmmm: well it doesn't necessarily make sense to make texture atlases general purpose, and more importantly a texture atlas is trivial; it's the usage of it that is hard 17:01 VanessaE Calinou: Phenom II X6 1055T here (2.8 GHz x 6), same deal, though ever since the VBO code went in, MT has performed a LOT better than it used to 17:01 VanessaE (at least compared to late 0.4 series, excluding 0.3) 17:01 hmmmm fwiw i think it was kahrl who removed the texture atlas 17:02 hmmmm the talk at the time was that it didn't really help much because of the texture sorting added in 0.4.3 17:02 VanessaE hmmmm: no 17:02 celeron55 the texture atlas was removed by a consensus 17:02 VanessaE well that's not the only reason 17:02 celeron55 but it was a bad decision 17:02 hmmmm it was years ago 17:02 VanessaE the texture atlas also had problems with too much texture data 17:02 VanessaE e.g. HDX 32px would break it 17:02 celeron55 i think RBA broke it and then it tended to be disabled 17:03 celeron55 and it was also disabled for other reasons like that 17:03 hmmmm he broke it by modifying it or by misusing it 17:03 hmmmm ? 17:03 VanessaE he insists that a texture atlas would break some other feature, don't recall what though 17:03 VanessaE something related to normalmapping I think 17:03 hmmmm blahhh 17:03 VanessaE insisted* ( :( ) 17:04 hmmmm i feel like we've given up more in performance for normalmapping than any other feature 17:04 OldCoder tcc isn't maintained 17:04 hmmmm and was it even necessary? i don't really know because i've never done it before, but could've there been a better approach to adding normalmapping that didn't require such a large change and performance hit? 17:05 VanessaE honestly, 17:05 VanessaE I HATE how normalmapping is done in MT 17:05 hmmmm how is normalmapping done in MT vs. another game you do like? 17:05 VanessaE well that's just it, I don't play enough other games to tell how THEY do it, 17:06 VanessaE but this mess with using four RGBA channels for different things in one file? 17:06 VanessaE let's see, what was it... R+G are used for directional vectors, B for height, A for something else that I can't even remember now 17:07 VanessaE and yet, we can't do basic stuff like lighting that follows the sun, specular highlighting, and so on 17:07 hmmmm blahhh 17:08 hmmmm how'd we get from biomes to normal mapping 17:08 VanessaE I think RBA should have taken a different path through that jungle. 17:08 hmmmm this is a jungle and i am not going to get anywhere unless i focus on my own problem 17:08 VanessaE oh sorry, my fault :) 17:08 hmmmm a jungle biome if you will 17:08 VanessaE heh 17:09 celeron55 i think, if we wanted, we could afford to maintain a lightweight but official effort at making a new incompatible engine designed for a smaller core, faster mods and refreshed library choices, alongside minetest; but i'm not sure if anything useful would come out of it 17:09 hmmmm all this stuff requires effort 17:10 VanessaE celeron55: that's not a bad idea but folks around here always say that manpower is already stretched too thin 17:10 celeron55 it does; but you also get more effort if you have inspiring projects 17:10 VanessaE if dev were started on a whole new engine core, the existing core would have to basically be abandoned 17:10 celeron55 manpower depends on how interested people are 17:10 celeron55 it's not a zero-sum game 17:10 hmmmm let's face it nobody is interested in a minecraft clone 17:10 hmmmm minecraft is old and busted, everybody has moved on 17:10 hmmmm not popular anymore 17:11 VanessaE I dunno 17:11 VanessaE my server stats of late belie that claim.. 17:11 VanessaE (bely?) 17:12 VanessaE MC may not be popular but MT seems to be holding its own; out of nowhere, my userbase jumped by 2x 17:13 celeron55 well, interest isn't dying down; it's pretty steady as far as i can tell 17:13 VanessaE (and just as quickly, seemed to wane off) 17:13 Calinou celeron55: time for you to clone CS: GO and DOTA 2! ;) 17:13 Fixer MC not popular anymore? o_0 17:13 hmmmm it's still hugely popular for sure 17:14 hmmmm it's just that the fad died off long ago 17:14 celeron55 i don't think you are here to chase fads, though 17:15 Fixer hmmmm: minecraft inspired subgame will be nice, i will play that for sure, I don't need fad 17:15 hmmmm that determines in part the number of potential developers we have 17:15 hmmmm not all trees bare fruit 17:15 hmmmm i don't want to start a minimal engine that does all these experimental things while neglecting the current minetest project and pissing everybody off 17:15 VanessaE well at the same time, as MC loses popularity, devs will leave it and some will come here. 17:15 Calinou I wish there was a standalone project that aimed to clone modern Minecraft, so far there is none 17:16 VanessaE (we've already seen that happening) 17:16 Calinou there are projects that aim to clone Roller Coaster Tycoon 2 for example 17:16 Calinou seems to be quite popular on GitHub, and looks like it's playable 17:16 celeron55 hmmmm: that's why (i said) it should take a very small amount of resources 17:16 celeron55 hmmmm: or, of course, not exist at all 17:16 hmmmm a very small amount of resources of a small amount of resources is probably like 5 minutes per day 17:17 VanessaE celeron55: what is the viability of resurrecting buildat for that purpose? 17:17 hmmmm let's face it some people have the mental energy required to do all this development on top of maintaining a normal life 17:17 celeron55 well, let's forget it then 17:17 VanessaE seems like you already did a lot of the work needed 17:17 hmmmm i don't 17:17 Fixer Calinou: openttd is also big success 17:17 celeron55 VanessaE: i don't know; after two months i decided that two months is too long considering half of the interfaces have to be redesigned 17:17 Fixer Calinou: and oolite 17:18 Fixer people want that classic stuff 17:18 Fixer minecraft is classic 17:18 VanessaE celeron55: well what I mean is, you built a fairly good codebase, for it is, right? 17:18 Calinou we don't even have open source Counter-Strike clone :< 17:18 VanessaE for what it is* 17:18 celeron55 VanessaE: i wish it had some crazy userbase that abused the shit out of it and showed me what it can do 17:19 Fixer Calinou: cs 1.6 still very very popular, many thousands of players, i think >30000 or so 17:19 VanessaE heh 17:19 celeron55 i have one for minetest 17:19 celeron55 it helps a bit 17:19 celeron55 or helped 17:19 Calinou Fixer: also CS:S and CS:GO of course 17:19 Fixer Calinou: yes, i like cs:s too 17:19 hmmmm surely some other projects have gone through the same phases as ours is 17:20 hmmmm isn't there any past precedent? 17:20 Fixer it is just minetest_game is boring 17:20 Calinou well, Cube 2: Sauerbraten was quite popular in 2007-2009 17:20 Calinou then it started fading in 2010, with less frequent releases 17:20 Calinou it made the news many times, which is why it's still on Wikipedia today 17:20 Calinou (Burger King ad) 17:20 Fixer people want minecraft like stuff, building etc 17:20 VanessaE hmmmm: micropolis -> lincity -> lincity-ng 17:21 Fixer minecraft_game is mostly sandbox, not a survival or anything, and you don't include any good subgames (even tutorial is having hard time to move in) 17:22 Fixer minetest_game* 17:22 VanessaE tuxracer -> ppracer is another that comes to mind 17:23 Fixer you end up with boring singleplayer, no survival, no monsters, NO CARTS (damn it) 17:23 VanessaE Fixer: well we all know why there are no monsters/carts 17:23 Fixer no wind sounds 17:23 Fixer VanessaE: now i think it is just an excuse 17:23 VanessaE s/wind/environmental/ 17:24 Fixer VanessaE: many servers run mobs with large amount of people and it works, you can use this in singleplayer, period 17:24 Fixer carts don't lag in singleplayer 17:24 VanessaE sure they do. 17:24 Fixer in multiplayer they are installed anyway and lag anyway 17:25 VanessaE remember even singleplayer is still one process communicating with another; haven't you ever noticed a cart occasionally jitter while it's moving along? 17:25 Fixer VanessaE: yes, environmental, it feels like you are half-deef 17:25 Fixer VanessaE: sometimes, not a big deal 17:25 VanessaE that's lag. 17:25 VanessaE now as for environmental sounds, that's easily solved with the Ambiance mod. 17:26 Fixer VanessaE: pfff, server stall = now that a tough shit! some cart jitter? boat jitters too, can we remove it for Cthulhu's sake? 17:26 VanessaE but again lag is an issue there, especially since the client can't tell the server "hey, shut this sound off and play this other sound the instant the user crosses this such and such boundary" 17:26 VanessaE I don't have much opinion on the bot, but then again since we have them, a decent carts implementation would make sense. 17:27 Fixer boat has jitter, railcart has jitter, yet boat is in default and you end up with uselsess rail, come on 17:27 Fixer again, if ambience is running fine on server with 40 players, why this is an issue for damn singleplayer? 17:27 VanessaE the problem with adding a default carts mod is the same problem hmmmm and celeron55 were talking about with biomes - you need to remain backward compatible with whatever the most-installed implementation there is 17:28 Fixer than you will never have carts in default 17:28 VanessaE which in the case of carts means making sure you support things like brake and power rails, which depend on Mesecons. 17:28 VanessaE (well the power rails do) 17:28 VanessaE and if you do THAT, you open up a whole new can of worms 17:29 Fixer you are overcomplicating everything, server owners or modmakers can adapt it whatever they like i guess 17:29 VanessaE of course, 17:29 VanessaE but you're forgetting an important point: 17:29 Fixer VanessaE: you can always disable builtin carts and use whatever you like 17:29 Fixer end of story 17:29 Fixer simple 17:30 VanessaE if you re-implement a popular mod as a default game feature, you have to make sure server owners can safely delete the theoretically-now-obsoleted "popular" mod. 17:30 Fixer thats their job to maintain server 17:31 Fixer if you are hosting the server, you are expected to fix it/maintain blabal, otherwise you are just a bad admin 17:31 VanessaE with carts that wouldn't be TOO hard really, I think the only "odd" feature there is the power rail, which could be excluded from default and moved into Mesecons 17:31 VanessaE fixing/maintaining a server is impossible if you're starting from a broken base system. 17:31 VanessaE not to say MT is a broken base system of course 17:31 VanessaE but one must ensure that it never does get to that point. 17:32 VanessaE now, I must challenge you: 17:32 VanessaE how many servers do you host or run? 17:33 VanessaE because I've got 23 instances running on my server, all of which as far as I am aware, are as stable as can be expected. 17:33 VanessaE (if I counted right) 17:35 VanessaE my point being, don't say a person is a "bad" admin if they have trouble keeping a server going. 17:36 Fixer my point is: include good and proven mods from community in default MTG to create nice survival/building default subgame (close to MC in gameplay), and let modmakers contribute to it 17:37 VanessaE that's fine. 17:37 VanessaE but you HAVE to make sure that what gets included is neither over-engineered nor incompatible with what they're intended to replace. 17:42 est31 hmmmm, you know that minecraft is the second most popular game in history, after tetris 17:42 est31 ? 17:42 hmmmm heh no 17:42 est31 Its like saying avatar was a badly selling movie 17:42 VanessaE I would have thought that Pac man would be at the top. 17:43 est31 https://games.slashdot.org/story/16/06/03/0215243/minecraft-tops-100-million-sales 17:43 VanessaE meh that doesn't really count without a per-capita figure, does it? 17:44 VanessaE that's based entirely on sales/downloads 17:45 est31 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_video_games#All_platforms 17:45 VanessaE I'm already looking at that page. 17:46 VanessaE as I figured, Pac Man took the top of the list for arcade games. 17:48 est31 IDK, I have never played minecraft 17:48 est31 and even if I wanted I didnt know how to start an open source clone of modern minecraft 17:49 est31 I think if you call yourself "minecraft clone" and make sure almost every aspect is the same you just get more allegations into the direction 17:49 est31 "minetest is pirated minecraft!" 17:49 est31 etc 17:49 est31 You can't simply clone a movie, book or song either 17:49 VanessaE haters gonna hate 17:50 VanessaE no matter how similar it is, someone will find fault 17:51 est31 One must give people a reason to switch 17:51 est31 and most people will just think "its free" 17:51 VanessaE well that's easy. just make it better ;) 17:51 VanessaE simple, right? 17:51 est31 hehe 17:52 VanessaE Fixer makes good points though 17:52 hmmmm FREE as in FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEDOM 17:52 VanessaE minetest_game needs some work, but not all that much. Too much change and you risk breaking things in ways that can't be easily fixed/worked around 17:53 hmmmm GNU/Minetest, or as I've recently taken to calling it, GNU + Minetest 17:53 est31 hmmmm, in fact that was the reason for me to using minetest the first place 17:53 hmmmm freetards gonna freetard 17:53 est31 hmmmm, dont interject 17:53 celeron55 free, as in freedom from getting any money from development work d8-) 17:53 hmmmm i love interjecting though 17:55 hmmmm anyway i didn't say that minecraft is a poorly-selling game, i'm just saying that the fad is over and there are notably less developers than there was during its heyday 17:55 Fixer VanessaE: it needs a lot of work, hunger, mobs, carts, environment sounds, weather *cough*, now it is just lifeless world, not even fucking wind :/ 17:55 hmmmm less minecraft fans means less minetest fans 17:55 hmmmm less minetest fans means less minetest developers 17:56 hmmmm we have a huge manpower problem 17:56 hmmmm don't get me wrong - there's no shortage of people who *want* to contribute, but they really aren't qualified 17:56 est31 17:56 est31 ^ 17:56 Fixer merge everything, fix later *trollface* 17:56 est31 https://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=linux 17:56 hmmmm that's what happened with particlespawners 17:57 est31 google confirms, linux is dying! 17:57 Fixer est31: we are dying :( 17:57 Fixer slowly 17:57 Fixer damn 17:57 VanessaE Fixer: I measure the amount of work it needs by the amount of new code that needs to be written and tested, not the number of features that are presumed missing. 17:57 est31 ttps://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=minetest 17:57 Fixer VanessaE: code already written, just merge it in and polish 17:57 VanessaE and since all of what you describe already has mods that can do most of the work, then by definition most of the work of making MT "better" is already done. 17:57 Fixer minetest is excuse world 17:57 hmmmm everybody works on what they want to work on 17:57 hmmmm that's another problem 17:58 hmmmm there is no concentrated effort 17:58 est31 minetest seems to be more popular in third world/developing countries 17:58 est31 probably because they dont have so much money like us 17:58 Fixer cdda is make game interesting, experiment, awesome features, minetest is boring, nah, don't want, too hard, bugz, there are no bug free software anyway, make it at least fun 17:58 est31 and minecraft costs there as much as in western world 17:58 hmmmm i'd expect minetest to be most popular in latin american countries 17:59 hmmmm because the latin american people truly understand the concept of freedom as in libre 17:59 hmmmm 17:59 est31 lol 17:59 Fixer hmmmm: forget East Europe and Asia %) 18:00 hmmmm I love stallman 18:00 hmmmm I just wish he wasn't as myopic 18:00 hmmmm he eats shits drinks and breathes free software 18:00 Fixer open source software gives you freedom that you want, everybody else can just pirate MC and shut the fuck up 18:00 Calinou you'd be surprised 18:00 Fixer if they don't have money 18:00 Calinou latin communities are often more supporting of free software than Americans 18:00 Calinou for obvious reasons 18:01 Calinou because America is all about ultra-liberalism [phoronix rolleyes] 18:01 Fixer open source is about control of software, you have all control, you can modify it as you like 18:01 Calinou but well, US is the home of Red hat 18:01 hmmmm phoronix == "zomg 40 ms faster" 18:01 Fixer proprietary software controls you 18:01 est31 Calinou, and of linus torvalds 18:01 est31 he could have lived in northern europe 18:02 Fixer hmmmm: biggest phoronix problem, absence of good "Conclusions" 18:02 est31 up there they are very supportive of free software as well 18:02 hmmmm phoronix is one single person who does nothing but writes articles based on the results of benchmarks for a zillion different permutations of hardware/software configurations 18:02 hmmmm like 18:02 hmmmm shit 18:02 Calinou and the usual "I work 100 hours a week! Donate pls!" 18:02 Fixer because he can 18:02 hmmmm he does NOTHING else all day except run benchmarks 18:03 Fixer he can join ISIS, and well... but instead he contributes to this world 18:03 hmmmm lol 18:03 hmmmm he contributes flamewar fuel 18:03 hmmmm ahh this is too offtopic 18:04 hmmmm back to our regularly scheduled programming... 18:04 Fixer no 18:04 Fixer this is serious 18:04 Fixer look at stall bug 18:05 Fixer tenplus1 will bring some backtraces soon 18:05 Fixer hope it helps 18:08 Fixer you have not seen gentoo flamewars for 30 pages, thats good one, now it is boring "radeon vs nvidia", both crap anyway 18:11 Fixer flamewar is much weaker today, it seems all the craze went into reddit, have fun with your coding 18:13 VanessaE you know, I don't get it. 18:13 VanessaE this "stall" bug everyone is complaining about 18:13 VanessaE how come I haven't seen anything nearly as serious on my setup? 18:15 twoelk VanessaE: so lets find out how the setups differ :-) 18:17 VanessaE well here'http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/17000277/ 18:17 VanessaE gah. 18:17 VanessaE who put enter right next to "'" ??!? 18:17 VanessaE well here's my config for VE-Basic, which is my fastest general-purpose server: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/17000277/ 18:17 VanessaE (the "Nostalgia" server is faster but only because it has like 20 defined nodes and no modern features) 18:18 twoelk it might even be triggered by some diferent versions of localizations - or other obxcure reasons 18:18 twoelk *obscure 18:19 Fixer VanessaE: stall bug is probably not a one bug either, but many 18:19 Fixer VanessaE: it is server lock up, you can run it on megaclaster and it will lock up and go in coma anyway 18:19 twoelk fore example maybe a playername is accepted at joining but sends server into a loop when used in a mod such as areas because of some bad character 18:22 twoelk or maybe old rogue vines trigger a massive neibourchecking cascade when specific type of client approaches 18:23 twoelk actually I once had a real life car that wouldn't start because of an obscure totally unimportant never used light bulb being broken - took ages to find and made no sense at all 18:25 VanessaE who can say for sure, but that basically never happens on my servers, except VE-Survival before the map reset (was due to technic mod being slow) 18:25 VanessaE twoelk: shorted out? 18:26 Fixer one thing I noticed: it could be database problem 18:27 Fixer if people go back to builds that worked earlier, and still have this problem, that means something was changed in database/worldfile/cache that now persists even old versions causing the lock up 18:28 Fixer once you catch lock up, you can't fix it anymore simply going back (or you can but to a lot older builds, nobody did this, too bad, git bisect can help) 18:44 Hijiri I'm surprised how quickly new versions of minetest get into Debian testing 18:45 Hijiri maybe it's easier to get a new version through when it's not a library or something that other packages are dependent on, or maybe the package mantainers are just more proactive 18:46 MillersMan Hi, paramat and hmmmm: I have created a small list of whishes I have for Mapgen and BiomeManager's C++ API for further work on the Canyon Mapgen, see #4189 18:46 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4189 -- Requests for a extensible Mapgen and BiomeManager 18:47 MillersMan I know that I'm currently just a third party developer working on a fork. but I'll like to stay up to date with the rest of minetest and would love to see the Mapgen to be integrated into the MT engine someday 18:49 est31 Hijiri, we notify the maintainers directly at each release 18:49 est31 glad to see you are impressed by the speed 18:57 twoelk VanessaE: could be, never understood it 19:10 MillersMan hmm, celeron: just an idea i got, maybe completely stupid but maybe its worth a try: plugins could be provided as llvm bitcode, this would limit plugins to be developed in languages that have an llvm-compatible compiler but at least c and c++ are supported with clang 19:11 MillersMan hmmmm i mean 19:11 hmmmm a big reason why nothing ever gets done in minetest is a lack of focus 19:12 sfan5 MillersMan: and people are supposed to install a compiler to install mods/plugins? 19:12 hmmmm i don't plan on doing anything with the fast plugin idea - that's for somebody else 19:12 est31 hmm, celeron: just an idea i got, maybe completely stupid but maybe its worth a try: plugins could be provided as llvm bitcode, this would limit plugins to be developed in languages that have an llvm-compatible compiler but at least c and c++ are supported with clang 19:12 est31 Theoretically this isnt required 19:12 est31 just add a C api 19:12 est31 done 19:12 hmmmm i'm totally focused on the mapgen for right now 19:13 hmmmm MillersMan I want to merge this https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/4065 could you take a look and respond to the comments soon? 19:14 MillersMan est31: but even with a C-api we still have to many different operating systems that need to be supported, not to speak about linking problems with external dependencies (wrong libc version for IO-support etc) 19:14 sfan5 forcing users to install a compiler framework isn't much better 19:15 MillersMan hmmmm: yes, i was already working on the new 4061 implementation, but that can wait, will fix 4065 19:15 est31 My main reason against a C api is that then mods can be written in any language on the world 19:15 twoelk regarding mapgen, I think water is weighted wrong at the moment. now it seems to be just random decoration while it should rather be an terrain changing element of mapgen 19:15 est31 meanind that in the end there is too much fragmentation 19:15 sfan5 also C mods can't offer Lua APIs 19:16 hmmmm twolek: ?? 19:16 sfan5 extensibility would be impossible with a C++ mesecons 19:16 sfan5 (well actually you could allow those apis, but it'd be way harder) 19:18 MillersMan just a code-style question: having member implementation in different order than their declarations isn't a problem if it's for having private declarations separated from public ones, right? 19:18 hmmmm anyway, earlier celeron made a very valid point. i think it would be useful to have a focused discussion about what biomes should be and so on in order to come to a final decision on what the interface ought to look like since this impacts quite a bit. 19:18 hmmmm could everybody who is interested in the mapgen and/or biomes join #minetest-mapgen, please? 19:19 est31 lol 19:19 paramat hi hmmmm > "it's deceptive but reverse compatibility is a guarantee because biomes have been made documented in lua_api.txt. despite me advising against it, it was made documented and now we have a contract to uphold with regard to the interface" nope and nope, see #3407 you made no comments and probably weren't active then. many things are documented before being stable 19:19 twoelk something like hightmap first, then water placement and resulting effects, then biomes, then border bioms including those needed for water changes to biomes such as beaches, river banks, swamps, whatever 19:19 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3407 -- Lua_api.txt: Add documentation for biome definition by paramat 19:19 paramat people were desperate for documentation so i added it 19:19 hmmmm MillersMan: that's fine 19:20 paramat the biome API is not stable and can be changed, and is :) 19:20 hmmmm paramat: not stable as in new things could be added but not removed 19:20 hmmmm peoples mods shouldn't break 19:20 hmmmm and i did say on numerous occasions why biomes weren't documented yet and why they shouldn't be 19:21 hmmmm maybe not at the exact time you wrote that patch adding the documentation 19:21 hmmmm in any case 19:21 paramat ok 19:21 hmmmm like i said, could everybody interested in the mapgen discussion join #minetest-mapgen?? 19:21 hmmmm we need more focus 19:22 MillersMan hmmmm: should i replace the whole PR, or is it ok to add the fixes in a new commit that will be squashed on merge? 19:22 paramat i am focussed 19:22 hmmmm the standard revision process is to either create a new commit in that branch or amend the old commit 19:23 hmmmm follow-up commits in a PR that are clearly revisions to the original change do get squashed before merge 19:23 paramat really modders don't mind too much if biome definitions change, it's not stable so we are free to make any change we want 19:23 MillersMan ok, thanks 19:52 VanessaE one thing that needs fixed is this damn issue with people ending up at 0,0,0 when they sign in 19:53 est31 the problem about these issues is is that they are barely reproducible 19:53 VanessaE I know. 20:08 Fixer VanessaE: also, when you have noclip and fly and at server start go down into -50, easily reproducable 20:15 paramat 0,0,0 spawn means spawn search failed, were custom noise parameters used? 20:15 paramat or a weird mapgen? 20:16 VanessaE paramat: mgv6, and I have static_spawnpoint set on all my servers. 20:18 paramat weird, dunno why then 20:23 VanessaE it's an ollllld bug. 20:31 VanessaE it's not hard to work around at least. just build a nice 3x3x3 room surrounding 0,0,0, make it look presentable, protect it, and give instructions on a sign on how to get back to the real spawn 20:31 VanessaE (and of course make sure it's positioned so that the user "falls" to the floor of the room on arrival) 20:37 Fixer VanessaE: or even dumber, download tp1 "teleport potion", place it in 0 0 0 to teleport back to spawn, done! 20:37 Fixer or similar mod 20:43 twoelk if at undisired place got to somewhere else = worldedge mod 20:44 Fixer !tell ShadowNinja what do you think about this jump jiggle - https://imgur.com/UmsgUPt ? acceptable? pr 3810 20:44 ShadowBot Fixer: O.K. 21:29 paramat climbing stairs in a restricted space will always be rough 21:40 VanessaE looks normal to m,e 21:40 VanessaE me* 21:40 VanessaE you're hitting your head as you climb up :P 21:40 paramat exactly 21:41 paramat the real test is an almost smooth and continuous run up a 45 degree hill slope 21:41 VanessaE can't be done 21:42 VanessaE well not without an ass-ton of collision boxes like how nodebox-based slopes used to be done 21:42 paramat i mean a fast sequence of jumps 21:42 paramat as currently 21:43 VanessaE oh 22:08 hmmmm oh 22:08 hmmmm millersMan: vi should NOT be int! 22:08 hmmmm array indexes should be unsigned 22:09 hmmmm so at least u32, preferably size_t though 22:09 hmmmm size_t is the proper type for array indexes 22:14 MillersMan of course 22:14 MillersMan i've also dropped the argument em, as it could be easily fetched from vm, i don't think this is a real performance overhead compared to the improved readability 22:15 hmmmm well 22:16 hmmmm i'm willing to bet the compiler isn't going to optimize that and it'll be calculated 6400 times per chunk 22:16 hmmmm you should probably leave it in 22:16 hmmmm better yet, you should test to see for yourself 22:17 hmmmm TimeTaker t("sdfg", NULL, PRECISION_MICRO); ... printf("updateLiquids: %uus\n", t.stop()); 22:17 MillersMan i'll leave it in even though it should be optimizable as its just a const call and i'm not changing vm at all (ok, but maybe there is another non-const call) 22:18 paramat btw i'm ok with 'water top' and 'depth water top' being removed. currently ice sheet in tundra ocean is so thick it often hits seabed anyway 22:18 hmmmm see 22:18 hmmmm there's your problem 22:18 hmmmm "currently ice sheet in tundra ocean is so thick it often hits seabed anyway" 22:19 hmmmm the biome API was not created for minetest game 22:21 paramat i know, i mean, do you think an upper liquid layer is still necessary? 22:24 paramat hm maybe .. something to consider 22:25 hmmmm i really don't know 22:25 hmmmm how do you know what other people are going to do with their mods 22:27 hmmmm btw millersman 22:28 hmmmm i just tested it on clang 3.8 - if your function is marked as inline, it doesn't make any difference in the output if you make the argument const ref or by value 22:28 hmmmm https://paste.fedoraproject.org/374657/07933314/ 22:30 MillersMan yes it's just from the style guide at my work, we always declare everything as const and pass by reference if it is more then 32 bit 22:32 MillersMan imho having all variables const is a good way to ensure that nothing is changed accidentially, on the other side code that might have such changes might need some cleanup 22:32 hmmmm ahh i see 22:32 hmmmm for me, it's 64 bit 22:33 hmmmm okay then you're right, 32 bit users do still exist in this universe 22:33 hmmmm you should make it const ref 22:35 MillersMan it shouldn't matter at all, thanks to inline and i'm not sure that pushing another 16 bits doesn't make that much of a difference, especially as it could be passed in a register 22:37 MillersMan i leave it without const ref, it doesn't matter thanks to inline and all other methods pass it this way too 22:39 MillersMan i've updated the PR 22:49 Fixer nice 22:49 Fixer as always i compile my builds with it 22:50 Fixer 4065? 23:06 MillersMan Fixer: yes, only 4065, the mapgen fixes/performance improvements 23:06 MillersMan i've already started fixing of 4061 23:07 MillersMan but for today its enough 23:07 MillersMan good night