| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 00:29 |
|
zat joined #minetest-dev |
| 00:36 |
VanessaE_ |
ok, just making sure. |
| 00:36 |
VanessaE_ |
btw, that is some EPIC terrain :) |
| 00:36 |
paramat |
good. nice mapper page you have |
| 00:37 |
VanessaE_ |
thanks. est31's handiwork :) |
| 00:37 |
paramat |
i'm thinking of adding a thin layer of gravel under seabed sand, to make it more available, thoughts? |
| 00:38 |
VanessaE_ |
mmm... |
| 00:38 |
paramat |
since there are 2 layers of material usable and i'm only using 1 |
| 00:38 |
paramat |
i'm not sure either |
| 00:38 |
VanessaE_ |
how about right under the grass in those dirt_with_grass + sandstone biomes |
| 00:39 |
VanessaE_ |
with seabed sand, I'd honestly expect a clay layer, but you already have blobs of the stuff spawning |
| 00:39 |
paramat |
yeah |
| 00:39 |
VanessaE_ |
now that said, |
| 00:40 |
VanessaE_ |
some days ago, I added HDX support for someone's biomes mod, and a couple of the nodes there were sandy dirt, and silt. useful? |
| 00:40 |
paramat |
for gravel on land we would need an extra layer usable in code, the 2 layers are used up with grass on dirt |
| 00:41 |
VanessaE_ |
oh ok, so skip that then. didn't think about the just-dirt layer |
| 00:41 |
paramat |
best not add new nodes i think |
| 00:41 |
paramat |
well the gravel blobs are more common now underground so that's enough i think |
| 00:42 |
VanessaE_ |
well I wouldn't be afraid of a few nodes added for the sake of better biomes, but I see your point. |
| 00:43 |
paramat |
sure, we can consider new nodes but they have to be really needed |
| 00:43 |
VanessaE_ |
agreed. |
| 00:56 |
paramat |
what i meant was, sandy dirt and silt are similar to what we already have and i don't see a need for them in the seabed |
| 00:56 |
VanessaE_ |
fair enough |
| 00:57 |
VanessaE_ |
it's just, you ....well you know what? |
| 00:57 |
VanessaE_ |
every time I've played a survival map, there's just never been enough clay. |
| 00:57 |
VanessaE_ |
why not go ahead and spawn more of it under those sandy seabeds then |
| 00:58 |
VanessaE_ |
(I'm thinking in terms of how useful the material is; gravel doesn't have much use except perhaps for pathways) |
| 01:03 |
paramat |
ah clay was a bit broken, the blob ore creation was broken and created really small blobs, they were too rare too. that's now been fixed |
| 01:03 |
paramat |
fixed in 0.4.13dev |
| 01:04 |
VanessaE_ |
yeah, what I saw on that map was more reasonable :) |
| 01:05 |
VanessaE_ |
but anyway that's the only thing I could expect to find under a sandy seabed. |
| 01:07 |
paramat |
yes i think i'll leave it as-is. the dirt/gravel/sand blobs underground are also fixed, larger and more common |
| 01:07 |
VanessaE_ |
*nod* |
| 01:08 |
VanessaE_ |
now, something that came up while searching - if you had an extra layer to use, putting *cobble* between the dirt/grass/snow and stone in biomes where those combos exist, would be a good idea |
| 01:09 |
VanessaE_ |
(and desert cobble in deserts, of course. Not sure what you'd use in those grass-over-sandstone biomes) |
| 01:14 |
paramat |
yes a nice transition using a broken form of the stone |
| 01:18 |
|
paramat left #minetest-dev |
| 02:22 |
|
Player_2 joined #minetest-dev |
| 02:53 |
|
Zeno` joined #minetest-dev |
| 03:44 |
|
swaaws joined #minetest-dev |
| 04:32 |
|
paramat joined #minetest-dev |
| 04:36 |
|
book` joined #minetest-dev |
| 04:36 |
paramat |
attempting something, can anyone help? #3248 |
| 04:36 |
ShadowBot |
paramat: Error: Delimiter not found in "An error has occurred and has been logged. Please contact this bot's administrator for more information." |
| 04:37 |
paramat |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/3248 |
| 04:38 |
paramat |
"ABMs: Add bool for catch up behaviour" by paramat |
| 04:42 |
|
Icedream joined #minetest-dev |
| 04:47 |
paramat |
oh i made a mistake, nevermind |
| 05:14 |
|
OldCoder joined #minetest-dev |
| 05:37 |
paramat |
seems to work now =} |
| 05:53 |
|
Hunterz joined #minetest-dev |
| 06:21 |
|
sebastia joined #minetest-dev |
| 06:26 |
|
Ardonel joined #minetest-dev |
| 06:28 |
|
kaeza joined #minetest-dev |
| 06:28 |
|
paramat left #minetest-dev |
| 07:19 |
|
Travis__ joined #minetest-dev |
| 07:30 |
|
Travis__ left #minetest-dev |
| 07:42 |
hmmmm |
new rule for contributing to minetest: |
| 07:43 |
hmmmm |
if you are submitting something that claims to be a fix, you MUST HAVE TESTED the code to verify that it works, and add in the PR a complete description on how to replicate the original bug |
| 07:43 |
hmmmm |
if you do not have this in your PR, it IS GROUNDS FOR REJECTION. |
| 07:44 |
hmmmm |
the point is that it needs to be reproducible for others to perform an effective review on the said PR |
| 07:45 |
hmmmm |
you know what, I take back what I said about minetest not having enough developers |
| 07:45 |
hmmmm |
we don't have enough /quality/ developers |
| 07:46 |
hmmmm |
I think it's time the pull requests get more selective. we don't *owe it* to the world to submit their code changes |
| 07:47 |
hmmmm |
when I get a nice stretch of free time I want to implement a formal framework of requirements for code submission |
| 07:47 |
hmmmm |
others no doubt already have some ideas on how to improve PR quality. please share them |
| 07:48 |
hmmmm |
this disorganized "holistic" approach we take right now is really disorganized, messy, overly subjective, and generally bad |
| 08:00 |
|
VanessaE_ joined #minetest-dev |
| 08:29 |
|
nrzkt joined #minetest-dev |
| 08:29 |
|
H-H-H joined #minetest-dev |
| 08:36 |
|
Ardonel joined #minetest-dev |
| 08:49 |
|
Icedream joined #minetest-dev |
| 08:55 |
|
julienrat joined #minetest-dev |
| 09:02 |
|
VanessaE_ joined #minetest-dev |
| 09:16 |
|
jin_xi joined #minetest-dev |
| 09:19 |
|
VanessaE_ joined #minetest-dev |
| 09:33 |
|
Calinou joined #minetest-dev |
| 09:41 |
|
VanessaE_ joined #minetest-dev |
| 09:45 |
|
VanessaE joined #minetest-dev |
| 10:34 |
|
julienrat joined #minetest-dev |
| 10:41 |
|
proller joined #minetest-dev |
| 10:59 |
|
nrzkt joined #minetest-dev |
| 11:11 |
|
rubenwardy joined #minetest-dev |
| 12:05 |
|
proller joined #minetest-dev |
| 12:10 |
|
Puma_rc_ joined #minetest-dev |
| 12:16 |
|
Darcidride joined #minetest-dev |
| 13:14 |
|
nyje joined #minetest-dev |
| 13:19 |
|
swaaws joined #minetest-dev |
| 13:21 |
|
sebastia joined #minetest-dev |
| 13:21 |
|
swaaws joined #minetest-dev |
| 13:22 |
|
sebastia joined #minetest-dev |
| 14:01 |
|
zat joined #minetest-dev |
| 14:20 |
|
DFeniks joined #minetest-dev |
| 14:30 |
|
CraigyDavi joined #minetest-dev |
| 14:48 |
|
Puma_rc joined #minetest-dev |
| 14:54 |
|
hmmmm joined #minetest-dev |
| 15:07 |
|
younishd joined #minetest-dev |
| 15:56 |
|
proller joined #minetest-dev |
| 16:00 |
|
proller joined #minetest-dev |
| 16:35 |
|
younishd joined #minetest-dev |
| 16:38 |
|
VargaD joined #minetest-dev |
| 16:43 |
|
FR^2 joined #minetest-dev |
| 16:48 |
|
rubenwardy joined #minetest-dev |
| 16:56 |
|
Darcidride joined #minetest-dev |
| 17:02 |
|
Robert_Zenz joined #minetest-dev |
| 17:05 |
|
VargaD joined #minetest-dev |
| 17:19 |
|
Robert_Zenz joined #minetest-dev |
| 17:33 |
|
troller joined #minetest-dev |
| 17:36 |
|
nrzkt joined #minetest-dev |
| 18:27 |
|
est31 joined #minetest-dev |
| 18:29 |
est31 |
hmmmm, I have some ideas, like automated checking of git whitespace errors #3142 |
| 18:29 |
ShadowBot |
est31: Error: Delimiter not found in "An error has occurred and has been logged. Please contact this bot's administrator for more information." |
| 18:30 |
est31 |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/3142 |
| 18:30 |
est31 |
"Let travis check for git format mistakes" |
| 18:31 |
est31 |
but that's only about some smaller things |
| 18:31 |
est31 |
generally, I wish: |
| 18:31 |
est31 |
1. better commit messages |
| 18:31 |
est31 |
recent bad example would be https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/3a4bcf35a14d0f4740fe1ce379d87ac2094cc5ba |
| 18:31 |
est31 |
"Fractal mapgen: Fix mysterious bug " |
| 18:32 |
est31 |
no reference at all what the bug is about |
| 18:32 |
est31 |
and a bug that gets fixed is usually not mysterious anymore |
| 18:32 |
est31 |
(I don't know the details though, perhaps it still is, so correct me if I'm wrong) |
| 18:33 |
est31 |
It would be great if a commit message included at least a reference to the bug report, or explanations about the bug fixed, except its really trivial |
| 18:34 |
est31 |
kahrl's commit https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/e0b57c1140554fccbf3e57a036cc4100887ab8f1 |
| 18:34 |
est31 |
would be a good example |
| 18:37 |
est31 |
2. unless its really impossible, PRs should only be about one single change. I support what hmmmm said in SN's logging PR, about splitting it up. |
| 18:37 |
est31 |
you can put similar commits into one PR, but there should be separate commits |
| 18:39 |
est31 |
3. I like the rules with squashing PR commits if they are just fixing the commit of the PR, etc. this creates a clean history. It should be kept. Also the "rebase to merge" strategy we currently have. |
| 18:41 |
est31 |
so a PR shouldn't have 15 commits where the first is about the actual change, and the remaining 14 are "Update server.cpp", "Fix what @kwolekr pointed out", "Remove trailing whitespace" |
| 18:44 |
est31 |
4. We discuss about new rules. Its like hmmmm proclaims a new rule, at least thats my impression when I read http://irc.minetest.ru/minetest-dev/2015-10-13#i_4421633 |
| 18:45 |
est31 |
correct me if my impression is wrong hmmmm, and you want to discuss it first. |
| 18:48 |
est31 |
A good example to study a very formalized contribution process is coreboot: https://github.com/coreboot/coreboot/commits/master |
| 18:49 |
nrzkt |
est31: agree with all points |
| 18:49 |
hmmmm |
[02:32 PM] <est31> and a bug that gets fixed is usually not mysterious anymore |
| 18:49 |
hmmmm |
hah that's exactly what I said |
| 18:50 |
hmmmm |
est31: yeah I want to discuss it first |
| 18:50 |
hmmmm |
I want to discuss rules in general though |
| 18:50 |
hmmmm |
what rules should we have, what don't make sense, how to enforce them, etc. |
| 18:51 |
hmmmm |
what ones we already have that don't make sense* |
| 18:51 |
hmmmm |
i'll have to take a look at coreboot |
| 19:14 |
|
jin_xi joined #minetest-dev |
| 19:21 |
|
shadowzone joined #minetest-dev |
| 19:57 |
|
damiel joined #minetest-dev |
| 20:06 |
|
rubenwardy joined #minetest-dev |
| 20:28 |
|
nyje joined #minetest-dev |
| 20:49 |
|
alket joined #minetest-dev |
| 21:14 |
|
eugd joined #minetest-dev |
| 21:22 |
|
Amaz joined #minetest-dev |
| 21:52 |
eugd |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/3199 |
| 21:52 |
|
paramat joined #minetest-dev |
| 21:53 |
eugd |
anything else? |
| 21:54 |
eugd |
paramat anything else on https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/3199? |
| 22:00 |
paramat |
a bug fixed is no longer mysterious of course :) i wrote that because, in my mind at least, the bug was known as 'the mysterious bug'. the message was a bit sloppy though and needed more detail, i was half asleep and hyper about the fix |
| 22:01 |
paramat |
eugd nothing else, seems good to me |
| 22:02 |
eugd |
cool, can we talk about mapgen determinism? |
| 22:02 |
|
proller joined #minetest-dev |
| 22:02 |
eugd |
i feel this needs to be a feature |
| 22:03 |
eugd |
eventually a delta engine with user-side generation is preferred, right? |
| 22:08 |
paramat |
not sure it's preferred |
| 22:09 |
paramat |
this was discussed a while ago, can't remember the opinions |
| 22:10 |
eugd |
well in any case deterministic generation is critical to a lot |
| 22:11 |
paramat |
do you mean only saving changes to world? |
| 22:11 |
eugd |
i mean mapgen reliably giving the same results |
| 22:12 |
paramat |
(that's what delta engine suggested to me) |
| 22:12 |
paramat |
mapgen is mostly deterministic due to pseudorandom |
| 22:14 |
paramat |
but order of chunk generation changes things due to mapgen overgeneration of caves, dungeons etc |
| 22:14 |
eugd |
yeah |
| 22:14 |
eugd |
so i put forward this should be fixed |
| 22:22 |
paramat |
it's not much of a problem, and only a few minor details are non-deterministic. i feel it's not worth breaking dungeon gen for. of course mgv6 can't be changed now. mgv5/v7 could have 3D noise large caves though |
| 22:24 |
paramat |
however mgv7 was meant to have pr large caves, and is near stable now |
| 22:25 |
paramat |
so only mgv5 and future mapgens can be flexible |
| 22:25 |
eugd |
what causes nondeterministic gen? just chunksize or is there more to it? chunk ordering, you said? |
| 22:31 |
paramat |
there may be a few 'randoms' instead of 'pseudorandoms'. order of chunk gen due to how players explore, problem is overgeneration is extremely useful in mapgen (essential in some cases) |
| 22:32 |
paramat |
changing chunksize you would expect different generation because it's so fundamental to everything |
| 22:33 |
eugd |
"overgeneration"? |
| 22:33 |
eugd |
why would order affect generation? |
| 22:34 |
eugd |
and what is value of chunksize as a user config? performance i would guess? |
| 22:36 |
paramat |
the per-node randomness of schematics is not pseudorandom (the randomness of leaves on trees) |
| 22:37 |
paramat |
chunksize is a parameter yes but it's usually it's best to leave it alone |
| 22:37 |
paramat |
(-it's) |
| 22:38 |
eugd |
'schematics' ~= 'decorations', dungeons, trees, etc.? |
| 22:38 |
paramat |
i've never used it |
| 22:38 |
paramat |
yeah all trees in mgv5/v7 are schematics |
| 22:38 |
paramat |
dungeons are not |
| 22:39 |
paramat |
mgv6 trees are deterministic |
| 22:42 |
paramat |
surely though the non-determinism of tree rotation, leaves, roots and branches is not a problem |
| 22:44 |
paramat |
the locations of decorations are deterministic it seems |
| 22:47 |
paramat |
mgv6 relies on a chunksize of 5+. 5 is probably close to optimum. i only know of one modder who needs to use an alternative chunksize |
| 22:48 |
paramat |
i've written a lot of mapgens and never needed to change it |
| 22:53 |
paramat |
mgv6 type trees grown from saplings are non-deterministic |
| 22:54 |
eugd |
who was the modder who needed it changed, and why? |
| 23:02 |
paramat |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3222 |
| 23:05 |
paramat |
i suspect chunk gen order doesn't change large caves much, so it seems the only non-deterministic things are tree structure and the rare protruding dungeons |
| 23:09 |
eugd |
why would chunk order change anything? referencing system time? |
| 23:14 |
paramat |
overgeneration is a structure generating out beyond a mapchunk's border, whether the neighbouring mapchunk penetrated is generated or not might affect how that structure generates |
| 23:19 |
|
eugd joined #minetest-dev |
| 23:33 |
|
paramat left #minetest-dev |
| 23:47 |
|
zat joined #minetest-dev |
| 23:48 |
|
zat joined #minetest-dev |
| 23:49 |
|
zat joined #minetest-dev |
| 23:51 |
|
zat joined #minetest-dev |
| 23:52 |
hmmmm |
blah |
| 23:52 |
hmmmm |
back |
| 23:52 |
|
zat joined #minetest-dev |
| 23:53 |
hmmmm |
okay so I separated the core of SN's logging cleanup: https://github.com/kwolekr/minetest/commits/sncleanup |
| 23:53 |
hmmmm |
errr https://github.com/kwolekr/minetest/commit/ed24a0e00f0971957c30a07be1d4b196421cafb6 |
| 23:53 |
hmmmm |
now I just need to fix the commit message/author/etc.. |
| 23:54 |
hmmmm |
not bad, only 25 changed files so far... |
| 23:54 |
|
zat joined #minetest-dev |
| 23:55 |
|
zat joined #minetest-dev |
