| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 00:02 |
est31 |
anyone knows whether rubenwardy is around |
| 00:02 |
est31 |
I wonder what the line limit was on the lua_api.txt |
| 00:03 |
est31 |
also they should read through my doc for grammatical errors |
| 00:08 |
hmmmm |
est31: kind of |
| 00:09 |
hmmmm |
NP_MAP_LOCK_REQUIRED is a macro that we add to APIs that don't actually access the map or environment |
| 00:09 |
hmmmm |
CURRENTLY at this very moment, it does nothing but profiles those api calls |
| 00:09 |
hmmmm |
but that it could do in the future is unlock and relock the map during its execution |
| 00:10 |
est31 |
to allow ... what? |
| 00:10 |
hmmmm |
if you write APIs that don't need to be envlocked and don't add that, we'll start to lose an accurate picture of how much time could be recovered by using opportunistic locking |
| 00:11 |
est31 |
is the busy part of the mapgen the copying to the map? I guess mapgen itself isnt locked, is it? |
| 00:19 |
|
paramat left #minetest-dev |
| 00:24 |
est31 |
ok #2898 is ready for review |
| 00:24 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2898 -- Add AreaStore data structure by est31 |
| 00:42 |
|
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| 00:43 |
asl97 |
est31: `takes up ~ 80% CPU`, this is before or after? |
| 00:44 |
|
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| 00:45 |
asl97 |
i am guessing before, if i am right, it is missing an after |
| 01:53 |
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| 02:02 |
hmmmm |
i'll have to take a look |
| 02:04 |
hmmmm |
wow @ the CAO code |
| 02:04 |
hmmmm |
magic constants ahoy |
| 02:06 |
|
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| 02:06 |
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cheapie joined #minetest-dev |
| 02:21 |
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| 02:24 |
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| 02:42 |
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| 02:49 |
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| 03:23 |
est31 |
what about this http://pasteboard.co/1RVN4OiJ.png |
| 03:23 |
est31 |
why is the mese so wrong here? |
| 03:23 |
est31 |
is it the texture? |
| 03:23 |
* est31 |
looks at the src |
| 03:27 |
est31 |
ah its supposed to be a "light source" |
| 03:27 |
est31 |
thats why |
| 04:17 |
|
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| 04:45 |
hmmmm |
so, was there any research into what the bottleneck with the current udp protocl is? |
| 05:05 |
|
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| 05:07 |
kaeza |
what would be the best way to implement "dynamic" items (see http://irc.minetest.ru/minetest/2015-07-11#i_4316976 ) currently I intend use a special marker in the metadata which if found loads the rest as JSON to get some properties |
| 05:08 |
hmmmm |
sounds... inefficient |
| 05:11 |
hmmmm |
that's the way that meta_set_nodedef works though, isn't it? |
| 05:12 |
est31 |
we have no json for these data, do we? |
| 05:12 |
est31 |
hmmmm, what do you mean with bottlenecks? |
| 05:12 |
hmmmm |
est31, the whole reason why people want to use enet is because it offers better transfer speeds |
| 05:12 |
kaeza |
I also thought about using a new packet to set this data explicitly, but not sure how to "sync" or get the "id" (if that's even possible) of the itemstack so it can be sent to client for modification |
| 05:13 |
hmmmm |
kaeza, if you are talking about setting the item description and such for individual itemstacks, then what you're planning on doing seems to be the way to go about it |
| 05:14 |
est31 |
doesnt that work already |
| 05:14 |
est31 |
I think Tenplus1's books have that feature |
| 05:14 |
|
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| 05:14 |
kaeza |
hmmmm, I'd also want to modify icon and possibly the capabilities; you think this would be sensible? |
| 05:15 |
hmmmm |
it'd be really slow |
| 05:15 |
hmmmm |
it all depends on how often these attributes actually need to be accessed |
| 05:15 |
hmmmm |
when I say really slow, I mean really slow for something so mundane |
| 05:17 |
kaeza |
it looks like it would be a tad slow without some kind of caching which will probably get a bit complex :/ |
| 05:17 |
hmmmm |
this is primarily why i don't like the idea behind meta set nodedef |
| 05:18 |
hmmmm |
(which, as you might predict, has performance problems) |
| 05:18 |
est31 |
^ |
| 05:19 |
est31 |
we can have meta set nodedef if some conditions are met |
| 05:19 |
hmmmm |
maybe it'd be doable with just the metadata part |
| 05:19 |
hmmmm |
like have special "control" metadata fields have some kind of prefix |
| 05:19 |
hmmmm |
__description = "foobarbaz" |
| 05:19 |
hmmmm |
i.e. skip the json |
| 05:20 |
est31 |
so have a "light" approach |
| 05:20 |
kaeza |
hmmmm, problem is itemstack meta is a simple string, not a hashtable/map/whatever |
| 05:20 |
hmmmm |
a std::map lookup is quite fast... parsing and loading json, then doing even more parsing and loading and lookups, all for some mundane detail like a string of text to be displayed on a tooltip is sorta dumb |
| 05:20 |
hmmmm |
oh that's not good |
| 05:20 |
est31 |
e.g. you have a certain string in the nodedef, and the mod gives a function that converts the string into a nodedef |
| 05:20 |
hmmmm |
is it possible to change the way itemstack meta works without breaking compatibility? |
| 05:20 |
kaeza |
hence the JSON hack |
| 05:20 |
hmmmm |
right... don't :( |
| 05:20 |
hmmmm |
that makes baby jesus cry |
| 05:21 |
hmmmm |
why not have the single "string" metadata be some kind of default key |
| 05:21 |
hmmmm |
like a blank string |
| 05:21 |
hmmmm |
so item_metadata[""] == "the_metadata_the_way_it_is_right_now" |
| 05:21 |
hmmmm |
and then item_metadata["__description"] == "custom itemstack description here." |
| 05:21 |
est31 |
so the engine then relies on the fact that the function has same results for same input |
| 05:22 |
hmmmm |
and then expose the keys to the lua api somehow in some reverse-compatible manner |
| 05:22 |
hmmmm |
? |
| 05:22 |
hmmmm |
does that work?? |
| 05:22 |
est31 |
? |
| 05:22 |
hmmmm |
this may be just as simple as the json version of the idea FYI |
| 05:23 |
est31 |
do we even send over metadata to the client |
| 05:23 |
kaeza |
the itemstack serialization would have to be changed (unless I read that wrong) |
| 05:23 |
hmmmm |
i don't doubt it |
| 05:23 |
est31 |
well thats doable |
| 05:23 |
hmmmm |
this is a worthwhile change |
| 05:24 |
hmmmm |
it's a crappy inefficient interface to begin with; fixing it is not something to hold back on |
| 05:24 |
est31 |
^ |
| 05:24 |
kaeza |
est31, yes (inventory.cpp:127) |
| 05:24 |
kaeza |
eh L 149 |
| 05:25 |
est31 |
so why do we have to change serialisation? |
| 05:26 |
est31 |
only for descriptions? |
| 05:26 |
hmmmm |
what about images |
| 05:26 |
hmmmm |
name |
| 05:26 |
est31 |
if I read it right, its only a client side change? |
| 05:26 |
hmmmm |
it's not |
| 05:27 |
est31 |
why |
| 05:27 |
est31 |
you can already access the metadata on the server cant you |
| 05:27 |
est31 |
its sent to the client |
| 05:27 |
est31 |
so then the only thing that needs to be done is let the client parse the metadata |
| 05:28 |
est31 |
and if we see "description" as key, we take the according key. |
| 05:30 |
est31 |
or am I wrong |
| 05:44 |
hmmmm |
itemstack metadata currently only exists as an amorphous string |
| 05:44 |
hmmmm |
the idea is to change it to send key/value pairs |
| 05:45 |
est31 |
ah I see |
| 05:47 |
est31 |
lets do this thing |
| 05:47 |
est31 |
set_metadata(name, value) |
| 05:48 |
est31 |
sets value for name |
| 05:48 |
est31 |
set_metadata(string) is legacy |
| 05:48 |
est31 |
and will set it for some legacy key |
| 05:48 |
est31 |
get_metadata() returns that value for the legacy key too |
| 05:49 |
est31 |
and get_metadata(key) returns it for the given key |
| 05:52 |
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| 05:54 |
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| 06:00 |
|
Hunterz joined #minetest-dev |
| 06:08 |
|
crecca joined #minetest-dev |
| 06:12 |
RealBadAngel |
hi guys |
| 06:13 |
RealBadAngel |
est31, am i right that you have mentioned lately saving data to the database? |
| 06:13 |
est31 |
yes |
| 06:13 |
RealBadAngel |
imho thats very crucial |
| 06:14 |
RealBadAngel |
have you saw mudlet db code for that? |
| 06:15 |
est31 |
no |
| 06:16 |
RealBadAngel |
http://wiki.mudlet.org/w/Manual:Lua_Functions#Database_Functions |
| 06:17 |
RealBadAngel |
such thing would be perfect |
| 06:19 |
RealBadAngel |
dont you think? :) |
| 06:21 |
est31 |
hrmm |
| 06:21 |
est31 |
I had something higher level in mind |
| 06:21 |
est31 |
where you just have a key value store |
| 06:22 |
RealBadAngel |
this is transparent, you store tables here |
| 06:23 |
RealBadAngel |
thats way better when you have to store mods per player data |
| 06:23 |
RealBadAngel |
like ui's waypoints for example |
| 06:24 |
RealBadAngel |
btw key storage is already done in fm |
| 06:26 |
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| 06:26 |
RealBadAngel |
also, wheres mtgame team? |
| 06:27 |
RealBadAngel |
is only paramat active there? |
| 06:33 |
est31 |
no he isnt mtgame member |
| 06:33 |
est31 |
not yet |
| 06:34 |
est31 |
http://dev.minetest.net/minetest_game_Development |
| 06:34 |
est31 |
" |
| 06:34 |
est31 |
Note: To prevent problems with the development like before minetest_game is maintained by only five people (BlockMen, sfan5, nore, PilzAdam, ShadowNinja). |
| 06:34 |
est31 |
" |
| 06:38 |
* VanessaE |
peeks in |
| 06:57 |
hmmmm |
well |
| 06:57 |
hmmmm |
I've been looking at ActiveObjectMessages and I can't see yet *where* a corrupted datastring bug might occur |
| 06:58 |
est31 |
Activeobjects are like canaries for lower level network bugs |
| 06:59 |
est31 |
because they are the only message i think that actually reads the packet size |
| 06:59 |
hmmmm |
yeah, a lot of the existing network code stinks. |
| 07:00 |
hmmmm |
i would really love to give it The Treatment(tm) one day |
| 07:00 |
est31 |
there has been a bug for example where the packet size got larger, creating tons of active object errors in infostream |
| 07:00 |
est31 |
only noticed it after ive turned infostream on to test my srp patch |
| 07:00 |
hmmmm |
:/ |
| 07:00 |
hmmmm |
a lot of errors are going completely unnoticed |
| 07:01 |
VanessaE |
hmmmm: no... not the TREATMENT. Anything but THAT! |
| 07:01 |
est31 |
thats why im against hiding errors from chat |
| 07:01 |
est31 |
its like not building these tiny lamps into your car |
| 07:01 |
VanessaE |
est31: the problem with letting errors into the chat is the same problem with not trimming ginormous chat messages - all that text filling the screen will kill the client FPS, sometimes hanging it up entirely. |
| 07:02 |
hmmmm |
this is just me, but I sort of doubt this has to do with (de)serialization errors |
| 07:02 |
hmmmm |
look at handleCommand_ActiveObjectMessages |
| 07:02 |
est31 |
#2636 |
| 07:02 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2636 -- Verbose logging bloated regression |
| 07:04 |
hmmmm |
so it creates the istringstream, then goes into this loop where it iterates until it runs out of data to consume |
| 07:04 |
hmmmm |
first thing it does is checks if eof, so data with 0 length can't cause an error |
| 07:04 |
hmmmm |
next, the ID is read |
| 07:05 |
hmmmm |
ahh okay nevermind |
| 07:05 |
hmmmm |
this is the problem right here |
| 07:05 |
RealBadAngel |
hmmmm, so are you going to do something with mistaken "512" values in minimap? |
| 07:05 |
RealBadAngel |
you have messed it badly |
| 07:05 |
hmmmm |
tell me how |
| 07:05 |
hmmmm |
if there's a bug I'll definitely fix it |
| 07:05 |
hmmmm |
no questions asked |
| 07:05 |
RealBadAngel |
minimap size and image size are two different cases |
| 07:06 |
hmmmm |
well |
| 07:06 |
RealBadAngel |
image size is meant to be 512x512 and downscaled |
| 07:06 |
RealBadAngel |
but mapsize is max 256 |
| 07:06 |
hmmmm |
so you're saying there are two cases were the 512s should be different constants? |
| 07:06 |
RealBadAngel |
yes |
| 07:06 |
hmmmm |
maybe you shouldn'tve put in magic numbers like that which can be confused |
| 07:07 |
RealBadAngel |
indeed |
| 07:07 |
hmmmm |
like what is "512"? is it the number of stars in the sky? |
| 07:07 |
RealBadAngel |
i will remember that lesson |
| 07:07 |
hmmmm |
sorry about the bug. |
| 07:07 |
hmmmm |
please, when I give feedback in a code review, listen to it |
| 07:07 |
hmmmm |
rather than have me do it and possibly do it wrong |
| 07:07 |
RealBadAngel |
when images are created ive picked 512x512 image size |
| 07:08 |
RealBadAngel |
folks are using big screens so having highres image base is good |
| 07:08 |
hmmmm |
est31: okay, so handleCommand_ActiveObjectMessages() seems to be a potential problem. you were right, it was a low-level serialization handling issue |
| 07:09 |
RealBadAngel |
but map size is max 256x256 because of the engine limit |
| 07:09 |
hmmmm |
est31: I ruled it out earlier because I mistakenly thought the remaining data was checked /before/ the length parameter was extracted |
| 07:09 |
RealBadAngel |
it simply doesnt load enough blocks to fill that area |
| 07:13 |
hmmmm |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/8804c47e59b550ec9a533de662f086af623d68c1 |
| 07:13 |
hmmmm |
jesus.. christ.. |
| 07:17 |
hmmmm |
and this |
| 07:18 |
hmmmm |
what the FUCK is this supposed to do |
| 07:18 |
hmmmm |
u32 msgsize = src.size(); |
| 07:18 |
hmmmm |
if (msgsize > 0xFFFFFFFF) { |
| 07:18 |
hmmmm |
msgsize = 0xFFFFFFFF; |
| 07:18 |
hmmmm |
} |
| 07:18 |
hmmmm |
oh my god |
| 07:18 |
hmmmm |
no. nerzhul does not get to add enet |
| 07:18 |
est31 |
that has been in before |
| 07:18 |
hmmmm |
i am going to get people mad at me no doubt |
| 07:18 |
est31 |
he copy pasted |
| 07:18 |
est31 |
but yes horrible |
| 07:18 |
hmmmm |
exactly |
| 07:18 |
hmmmm |
he copy pasted |
| 07:18 |
hmmmm |
it's like he doesn't give a shit at all |
| 07:19 |
hmmmm |
this is some of the most critical code to minetest |
| 07:19 |
hmmmm |
there's no care, no consideration, code is flung around like monkeys fling poop |
| 07:19 |
|
blaze joined #minetest-dev |
| 07:19 |
hmmmm |
some kind of bug caused by my code? |
| 07:20 |
hmmmm |
add a couple of absolutely useless error handlers |
| 07:20 |
hmmmm |
that'll fix the problem |
| 07:20 |
RealBadAngel |
hmmmm, dont be too strict, mt is not a nasa project ;) |
| 07:20 |
hmmmm |
lookit |
| 07:20 |
crecca |
:D |
| 07:20 |
hmmmm |
i've tried to not be too strict and you know where it gets us? |
| 07:21 |
RealBadAngel |
jokin |
| 07:21 |
crecca |
not to the moon! |
| 07:21 |
est31 |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/0.4.10/src/client.cpp#L2086 |
| 07:21 |
hmmmm |
a shitheap of regressions and bugs so large, that nobody can make any meaningful progress because we're too busy playing perpetual clean up |
| 07:21 |
est31 |
here it makes even sense |
| 07:21 |
est31 |
because its size_t |
| 07:21 |
RealBadAngel |
but seriously, when dozens of folks have messed with a function such situations will happen no matter what |
| 07:22 |
RealBadAngel |
and each one next will say "wtf" |
| 07:23 |
hmmmm |
and we can't let that happen |
| 07:23 |
hmmmm |
that needs to end - as it stands right now I'm embarassed to have my name associated with this project |
| 07:23 |
hmmmm |
there's no quality |
| 07:23 |
hmmmm |
the only thing worse than minetest is freeminer |
| 07:23 |
RealBadAngel |
lol |
| 07:24 |
RealBadAngel |
actually proller made a few good things we dont have |
| 07:24 |
hmmmm |
.. i think i'll pass |
| 07:24 |
RealBadAngel |
please no |
| 07:25 |
RealBadAngel |
was just jokin |
| 07:25 |
RealBadAngel |
quality is good |
| 07:25 |
RealBadAngel |
and youre right person to make the pressure on us |
| 07:26 |
hmmmm |
i don't want to be required to put pressure on everybody else |
| 07:26 |
hmmmm |
everybody else should have the same attitude |
| 07:26 |
RealBadAngel |
should but will never have |
| 07:26 |
RealBadAngel |
we are not the same |
| 07:26 |
hmmmm |
right, because of the kinds of coders this project attracts |
| 07:26 |
hmmmm |
it's just a silly game |
| 07:26 |
hmmmm |
silly kids play and code the game |
| 07:27 |
hmmmm |
it's broken? who cares, it's just a game |
| 07:27 |
RealBadAngel |
we are not silly |
| 07:27 |
RealBadAngel |
and thats not nasa project |
| 07:27 |
RealBadAngel |
its our hobby |
| 07:27 |
hmmmm |
it certainly seems that way when a user encounters some retarded error caused by not using any care whatsoever in writing code and then decides that "lol this minetest thing sucks. gonna go try out terasology" |
| 07:28 |
hmmmm |
there are many minecraft clones out there |
| 07:28 |
est31 |
there are many people in the minetest modding world who only know lua and would wish to contribute to the c++ code too, but dont have the knowledge to do so |
| 07:28 |
RealBadAngel |
so we shall learn from it |
| 07:28 |
hmmmm |
:( |
| 07:28 |
hmmmm |
lots of C++ beginners |
| 07:28 |
RealBadAngel |
im learning from your comments to my code |
| 07:28 |
RealBadAngel |
really |
| 07:29 |
est31 |
me too, I've learnt alot from you hmmmm. |
| 07:29 |
hmmmm |
:( |
| 07:29 |
hmmmm |
jesus christ what kinds of coders do we have on this project |
| 07:29 |
hmmmm |
oh well |
| 07:29 |
hmmmm |
i'll turn you into C++ machines |
| 07:30 |
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| 07:30 |
RealBadAngel |
hmmmm, https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/2897/files#diff-8b1361a90a460ea33ecf3db026997f8aR2077 |
| 07:30 |
RealBadAngel |
see? :) |
| 07:30 |
hmmmm |
:) |
| 07:31 |
RealBadAngel |
thats all because of you ;) |
| 07:31 |
hmmmm |
don't mean to be naggy but |
| 07:31 |
RealBadAngel |
yes? |
| 07:32 |
hmmmm |
first of all, "bool normalmap_present = tile->normal_texture ? true : false;" isn't necessary |
| 07:32 |
hmmmm |
you can make that |
| 07:32 |
hmmmm |
bool normalmap_present = tile->normal_texture |
| 07:32 |
hmmmm |
or if you want to make the conversion to from a pointer type to bool explicit, "bool normalmap_present = !!tile->normal_texture; |
| 07:33 |
hmmmm |
then, to add a single character to a std::string, you could use push_back() |
| 07:33 |
est31 |
interesting trick |
| 07:33 |
est31 |
the !! one |
| 07:33 |
RealBadAngel |
pushback is not as obvious as += |
| 07:33 |
hmmmm |
so you can turn tname += normalmap_present ? strue : sfalse; into tname.push_back(normalmap_present ? '1' : '0'); |
| 07:34 |
hmmmm |
or if you want to feel extra clever |
| 07:34 |
hmmmm |
tname.push_back('0' + normalmap_present); |
| 07:34 |
RealBadAngel |
that is what i mean |
| 07:35 |
RealBadAngel |
from just taking a look one wont know what the code does |
| 07:35 |
RealBadAngel |
too tricky |
| 07:37 |
est31 |
'0' + normalmap_present is bad style agree |
| 07:37 |
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| 07:38 |
RealBadAngel |
so, hmmmm dont push that ;) |
| 07:38 |
hmmmm |
well i did say, if you're feeling extra clever |
| 07:38 |
hmmmm |
being clever is not necessarily a good thing |
| 07:39 |
RealBadAngel |
anyway, push for me feels like using a stack |
| 07:39 |
hmmmm |
it's the only way to append a single char onto a std::string |
| 07:39 |
hmmmm |
append() only has a std::string variant |
| 07:39 |
hmmmm |
and operator+ is a wrapper for append |
| 07:39 |
RealBadAngel |
+= "a" also appends one |
| 07:40 |
hmmmm |
i suppose so, it converts that "a" into a std::string and does a lot of other unnecessary things too though |
| 07:41 |
RealBadAngel |
but gain in speed is not worth it imho |
| 07:42 |
RealBadAngel |
i can fight for changes that can save us lotsa time |
| 07:43 |
RealBadAngel |
but not such small things, that have impact next to nothing |
| 07:43 |
|
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| 07:44 |
RealBadAngel |
hmmmm, other thing. how about client side lua? |
| 07:44 |
RealBadAngel |
are you doing something in this direction? |
| 07:44 |
hmmmm |
what about it |
| 07:44 |
hmmmm |
yes |
| 07:44 |
RealBadAngel |
cool |
| 07:44 |
hmmmm |
i am working on a bunch of bugs then going to start on client side lua |
| 07:44 |
RealBadAngel |
we definitely need it |
| 07:45 |
est31 |
how again can i make a for loop in lua that does for(i = 0; i < n; i++) |
| 07:45 |
RealBadAngel |
when im done with current shaders issues, i do plan to work on drawtypes |
| 07:46 |
RealBadAngel |
i plan to make wires, tubes, signs and terminals |
| 07:46 |
RealBadAngel |
all those things that make number of nodedefs grow insanely |
| 07:46 |
hmmmm |
oh god |
| 07:47 |
hmmmm |
NetworkPacket has a huge security hole in it |
| 07:47 |
RealBadAngel |
can we get a virus through it? ;) |
| 07:48 |
hmmmm |
well, you can definitely cause a crash |
| 07:48 |
est31 |
thats category "security" then |
| 07:48 |
Calinou |
est31, https://duckduckgo.com/?q=lua+for+loop&ia=qa :) |
| 07:48 |
* RealBadAngel |
can almost see buch of chineese hackers exploiting that hole to get control over all mt servers in the world ;) |
| 07:49 |
RealBadAngel |
brb, going out for shopping |
| 07:49 |
hmmmm |
:/ |
| 07:50 |
hmmmm |
honestly I'd rather rewrite NetworkPacket than deal with all of these security problems |
| 07:51 |
hmmmm |
the entire thing is a giant security flaw |
| 07:51 |
hmmmm |
checkReadOffset() is cute, but it doesn't really help the case where a read of a size is requested larger than there is data available |
| 07:52 |
hmmmm |
and then all of the string functions/operators don't even have checkReadOffset() |
| 08:00 |
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| 08:10 |
est31 |
~ping |
| 08:10 |
ShadowBot |
pong |
| 08:10 |
est31 |
both kwolekr and RBA have ping timeout? |
| 08:10 |
est31 |
and no netsplit? |
| 08:11 |
est31 |
w31rd ... |
| 08:40 |
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Krock joined #minetest-dev |
| 08:55 |
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proller joined #minetest-dev |
| 09:08 |
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chchjesus joined #minetest-dev |
| 09:16 |
VanessaE |
what'r the odds? oOoooooOOoooOOOooOOO |
| 09:16 |
VanessaE |
:) |
| 09:16 |
Krock |
huh? |
| 09:17 |
VanessaE |
late response to est31 |
| 09:18 |
|
RealBadAngel joined #minetest-dev |
| 09:47 |
RealBadAngel |
i am rising the PR once again |
| 09:47 |
RealBadAngel |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1651 |
| 09:47 |
est31 |
wow thats old |
| 09:47 |
RealBadAngel |
how can it be that modern game does not have a music |
| 09:47 |
RealBadAngel |
are all devs deaf? |
| 09:48 |
RealBadAngel |
we can use decent free of charge music source |
| 09:50 |
RealBadAngel |
atm, since always, minetest seems like being developed by a bunch of deaf guys |
| 09:51 |
RealBadAngel |
"farting" issue when flyin even proves that |
| 09:52 |
RealBadAngel |
hmmm, intel cpu, and others just do not care about sounds |
| 09:53 |
RealBadAngel |
but folks that download our game do |
| 09:53 |
RealBadAngel |
we are half naked |
| 09:53 |
crecca |
there is also large room for improvement with sound effects |
| 09:54 |
RealBadAngel |
ofc there is |
| 09:54 |
RealBadAngel |
but stubborns like PilzAdam are blocking everything |
| 09:54 |
crecca |
the sound of nature should be the music in-game |
| 09:55 |
RealBadAngel |
mt is able to play client cached music since always |
| 09:55 |
RealBadAngel |
it doesnt even have to be sent by server |
| 09:56 |
RealBadAngel |
i cannot see any single fucking reason we are not using that |
| 09:56 |
RealBadAngel |
except for PilzAdam's being stubborn |
| 09:56 |
crecca |
stubborn in what way? what does he say about it? |
| 09:56 |
RealBadAngel |
show me single fucking game without music |
| 09:57 |
RealBadAngel |
even sudoku on mobile has music |
| 09:57 |
RealBadAngel |
crecca, he just refuses it |
| 09:59 |
RealBadAngel |
not the particular score, but using music at all |
| 09:59 |
crecca |
menu music can work but in most games it doesn't and sounds awful |
| 09:59 |
crecca |
but if it works it's worth it |
| 09:59 |
RealBadAngel |
have you heard the scores i proposed? |
| 09:59 |
crecca |
good example of good menu music is worms |
| 09:59 |
crecca |
I'm about to |
| 10:00 |
crecca |
but where can I find it? |
| 10:00 |
est31 |
https://raw.githubusercontent.com/RealBadAngel/minetest/menu_music/sounds/main_menu.ogg |
| 10:01 |
RealBadAngel |
thats fuckin right |
| 10:02 |
crecca |
It's a nice score |
| 10:02 |
crecca |
although bit serious |
| 10:02 |
RealBadAngel |
this is imho piece that promises chalenghe, fun and mystery |
| 10:03 |
crecca |
but sets a mood for medieval themes, with those horns and big drums |
| 10:03 |
RealBadAngel |
we are serious |
| 10:03 |
RealBadAngel |
so theme should be |
| 10:03 |
RealBadAngel |
its a bit cinematic, and i love that way |
| 10:04 |
RealBadAngel |
anyway, that guy have produced hundreds of pieces for freely usage |
| 10:05 |
RealBadAngel |
most of them are decent |
| 10:05 |
crecca |
yeah it should be cinematic, evoke images of some story going on, but minetest have many different themes depending how you play |
| 10:05 |
RealBadAngel |
we are just dumb not using them |
| 10:05 |
crecca |
it is a sandbox after all |
| 10:05 |
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autodidact joined #minetest-dev |
| 10:05 |
crecca |
after hearing this music you feel obliged to build a castle :D |
| 10:05 |
RealBadAngel |
above was picked for main menu only |
| 10:06 |
crecca |
but it is not all-medieval, only a little bit |
| 10:06 |
crecca |
i think it should be a little bit medieval, a little bit electronic, a little bit field recording... |
| 10:07 |
RealBadAngel |
i will make a repo now |
| 10:07 |
RealBadAngel |
hold on |
| 10:07 |
crecca |
descent (old game, if you can remember it) also had good score |
| 10:08 |
crecca |
cinematic yes, but choosing a music for a game is more difficult than for a movie, imho |
| 10:08 |
VanessaE |
RealBadAngel: regarding issue 1328, you should add something indicating why you've closed it. |
| 10:08 |
est31 |
#1328 |
| 10:08 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1328 -- Add 3D torches by BlockMen |
| 10:08 |
VanessaE |
I was avoiding that... |
| 10:09 |
est31 |
I wanted a clickable link |
| 10:09 |
est31 |
still thinking that 2d torches are stupid |
| 10:10 |
RealBadAngel |
est31, VanessaE these were outdated |
| 10:10 |
VanessaE |
ok |
| 10:10 |
RealBadAngel |
extruded ones are way better |
| 10:10 |
est31 |
but need more polygons, no? |
| 10:10 |
RealBadAngel |
extruded are animated |
| 10:11 |
RealBadAngel |
yes they do |
| 10:11 |
VanessaE |
RealBadAngel: homedecor "3dforniture" torches |
| 10:11 |
VanessaE |
FAR fewer faces than would be created by extruding, and still animated nicely imho |
| 10:11 |
RealBadAngel |
we need to pick up one way |
| 10:12 |
RealBadAngel |
blockmen's one was wrong |
| 10:12 |
RealBadAngel |
more like a hack than a solution |
| 10:12 |
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err404 joined #minetest-dev |
| 10:13 |
RealBadAngel |
not to say we do have too many issues open |
| 10:13 |
RealBadAngel |
ive closed a few that i can judge |
| 10:19 |
kahrl_ |
please do not use this main_menu.ogg. If I ever rewatch kurtjmac's season 4 intro, I don't want to be reminded of the formspec mess that minetest's main menu is 8) |
| 10:19 |
RealBadAngel |
kahrl_, repo of the music aviable from that guy is HUGE |
| 10:20 |
RealBadAngel |
i am uploading now repo with selections, picked of how i feel them |
| 10:20 |
kahrl_ |
most of the "epic" themed music is pretty overused though |
| 10:20 |
RealBadAngel |
please hold on |
| 10:21 |
RealBadAngel |
but anyway |
| 10:21 |
RealBadAngel |
i am mt contributor, only app i do run is mt |
| 10:22 |
RealBadAngel |
except for developing tools |
| 10:22 |
RealBadAngel |
i did turned on my speakers on for the very first time since half a yr or something |
| 10:23 |
RealBadAngel |
mt doesnt offer anything to your ears simply |
| 10:23 |
RealBadAngel |
its a deaf game |
| 10:23 |
RealBadAngel |
sounds used are annoying and to be skipped just |
| 10:25 |
RealBadAngel |
theres no such situation like in mc that i was lookin for mob drop (a record) to get a piece of music and play it at my base |
| 10:25 |
RealBadAngel |
shame on US |
| 10:26 |
RealBadAngel |
not only lunatics but deaf lunatics :P |
| 10:28 |
VanessaE |
on another note, |
| 10:29 |
VanessaE |
kilbith suggested that the "lite" mode I added to Unified Inventory be used, with some polishing, as a built-in replacement for the existing inventory display. |
| 10:29 |
est31 |
yea like no worldedit or trash buttons |
| 10:29 |
VanessaE |
that's easily done. |
| 10:30 |
kahrl_ |
RealBadAngel: I wasn't really serious :P I'm not against music in the main menu or the game, although I won't vote for or against particular pieces (since I would probably disable them anyway) |
| 10:30 |
VanessaE |
the worldedit button is actually added by that mod |
| 10:30 |
VanessaE |
the trash button is supposed to only be visible in creative mode |
| 10:30 |
RealBadAngel |
kahrl_, one can have speaker off, or disable that |
| 10:31 |
RealBadAngel |
but modern game without music is unacceptable at all |
| 10:31 |
kahrl_ |
I'd disable them because music in games tends to get repetitive (except in story driven games where the music is composed to directly fit some cutscene, I guess) |
| 10:31 |
kahrl_ |
but yeah, I guess it's expected that there is some |
| 10:31 |
* est31 |
^ |
| 10:31 |
est31 |
(to the first statement) |
| 10:31 |
RealBadAngel |
kahrl_, im uploading now about 30 picked pieces of music |
| 10:32 |
RealBadAngel |
grouped them in folders where they could fit imo |
| 10:33 |
RealBadAngel |
its several hours of continous playtime |
| 10:33 |
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| 10:35 |
RealBadAngel |
some of them are "peace of mind" some hardcore |
| 10:35 |
VanessaE |
RBA: were these those tunes from...Skaven I think? or were they from that guy who had like hundreds of tunes of various genres? |
| 10:37 |
kahrl_ |
VanessaE: main_menu.ogg is from incompetech.com by Kevin MacLeod |
| 10:37 |
VanessaE |
that's the latter option then :) |
| 10:37 |
RealBadAngel |
VanessaE, no |
| 10:37 |
RealBadAngel |
Kevin's |
| 10:38 |
VanessaE |
yeah, that's what I meant |
| 10:38 |
VanessaE |
couldn't remember the site |
| 10:38 |
RealBadAngel |
hes allowing freely usage |
| 10:39 |
RealBadAngel |
but imho when we decide to use his tunes we shall put there a link with his paypal |
| 10:39 |
RealBadAngel |
his tunes are worth it |
| 10:40 |
kahrl_ |
well attribution is required by the license anyway |
| 10:40 |
RealBadAngel |
i will personally send him a few bucks for a few beers |
| 10:40 |
RealBadAngel |
howgh |
| 10:42 |
RealBadAngel |
97%, should end shortly |
| 10:43 |
Calinou |
<+RealBadAngel> hes allowing freely usage |
| 10:43 |
Calinou |
we need a free license, more than just "free usage" |
| 10:44 |
kahrl_ |
Calinou: it's CC-BY 3 |
| 10:44 |
Calinou |
ok |
| 10:48 |
RealBadAngel |
https://github.com/RealBadAngel/mtmusic |
| 10:48 |
kahrl_ |
so how is the main menu music chosen by the engine? is it a fixed file or does it depend on the chosen subgame? |
| 10:48 |
RealBadAngel |
uploaded |
| 10:48 |
RealBadAngel |
kahrl_, asfair i coded that games can force own scores |
| 10:49 |
kahrl_ |
ah good |
| 10:49 |
RealBadAngel |
so theyre able to override mt main one |
| 10:50 |
kahrl_ |
I don't think the engine should come with music |
| 10:50 |
kahrl_ |
it should be part of minetest_game |
| 10:50 |
RealBadAngel |
it should |
| 10:50 |
RealBadAngel |
with one for where theres no game |
| 10:50 |
RealBadAngel |
or no picked one yet |
| 10:51 |
RealBadAngel |
our score, an embleem |
| 10:51 |
RealBadAngel |
https://github.com/RealBadAngel/mtmusic/blob/master/server%20/Our%20Story%20Begins.mp3 |
| 10:51 |
RealBadAngel |
listen to this |
| 10:52 |
RealBadAngel |
that could fit |
| 10:53 |
kahrl_ |
it's nice but you can't ensure it will fit all subgames or all servers |
| 10:54 |
kahrl_ |
1:25 |
| 10:54 |
kahrl_ |
that's way too short |
| 10:55 |
kahrl_ |
while the user is still browsing the server list, the music will restart and the user will get annoyed at the repetitive music |
| 10:56 |
RealBadAngel |
there are many scores |
| 10:57 |
RealBadAngel |
my selections are due to the feel of them |
| 10:58 |
RealBadAngel |
https://github.com/RealBadAngel/mtmusic/blob/master/menu/The%20Descent.mp3 |
| 10:58 |
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| 10:58 |
RealBadAngel |
this is imho the best for menu |
| 10:59 |
RealBadAngel |
i do have it in my pocket mp3 player for almost a yr |
| 10:59 |
RealBadAngel |
and i would love it to be known as mt main score |
| 11:00 |
RealBadAngel |
it reminds me The Rock with Sean Connery and Nicolas Cage |
| 11:00 |
RealBadAngel |
its the same style |
| 11:01 |
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Amaz joined #minetest-dev |
| 11:04 |
kahrl_ |
I still don't see the problem with making it a part of minetest_game |
| 11:05 |
kahrl_ |
people that use the official builds will have minetest_game |
| 11:07 |
kahrl_ |
people that don't have it by default are mostly power users and can decide for themselves if they want to have it or not |
| 11:12 |
RealBadAngel |
https://github.com/RealBadAngel/mtmusic/blob/master/server%20/Our%20Story%20Begins.mp3 could be used for world loading |
| 11:12 |
RealBadAngel |
yes, but |
| 11:12 |
RealBadAngel |
whos gonna vote for it? |
| 11:12 |
RealBadAngel |
mt game team? |
| 11:12 |
RealBadAngel |
theres no such team |
| 11:13 |
RealBadAngel |
its dead |
| 11:13 |
RealBadAngel |
theres only paramat active |
| 11:13 |
RealBadAngel |
stubborn PA |
| 11:13 |
RealBadAngel |
and no one else |
| 11:14 |
RealBadAngel |
and even paramat is not formally a mtgame dev |
| 11:14 |
kahrl_ |
that would be a reason to fix the issue with minetest_game development, not a reason to add music to the engine where it doesn't belong |
| 11:14 |
RealBadAngel |
those are two separate things |
| 11:15 |
RealBadAngel |
altough havin no active mt game team exludes such changes being merged |
| 11:15 |
RealBadAngel |
lets put it other way |
| 11:16 |
RealBadAngel |
im active dev for 2 yrs or so already |
| 11:16 |
RealBadAngel |
do i deserve to hear a piece of music in my project or not? |
| 11:16 |
RealBadAngel |
do i have to patch the sources constantly? |
| 11:17 |
kahrl_ |
being active for that long means you should know we don't want to have content in the engine |
| 11:17 |
kahrl_ |
instead it's defined by subgames |
| 11:17 |
RealBadAngel |
read the patch |
| 11:17 |
RealBadAngel |
it allows games to play music |
| 11:18 |
RealBadAngel |
but any way, we dont have any |
| 11:18 |
kahrl_ |
the patch is adding music to the engine |
| 11:18 |
RealBadAngel |
and the games |
| 11:19 |
RealBadAngel |
main score for the engine and switcheable for games |
| 11:21 |
* RealBadAngel |
is walkin currently in desert biome: https://github.com/RealBadAngel/mtmusic/blob/master/desert/Tabuk.mp3 |
| 11:22 |
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| 11:23 |
RealBadAngel |
kahrl_, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIYMAuPEiE8 |
| 11:24 |
RealBadAngel |
you know this? |
| 11:26 |
kahrl_ |
no |
| 11:26 |
kahrl_ |
but well |
| 11:26 |
kahrl_ |
it's a medieval themed game |
| 11:26 |
kahrl_ |
but the minetest engine has no theme |
| 11:26 |
RealBadAngel |
its a piece that i love since 15 yrs |
| 11:27 |
RealBadAngel |
made by Paul Romero |
| 11:27 |
RealBadAngel |
i do play HOMM3 since it was released, all the time |
| 11:27 |
RealBadAngel |
never turned the music off |
| 11:28 |
VanessaE |
bbl |
| 11:28 |
RealBadAngel |
be it medievelal or whatever |
| 11:28 |
RealBadAngel |
its a piece to love and remember |
| 11:29 |
RealBadAngel |
yet our project has little reasons to turn the speaker on... |
| 11:29 |
RealBadAngel |
do you get my point? |
| 11:30 |
RealBadAngel |
atm you could as well disable all the sound in game |
| 11:30 |
RealBadAngel |
its a fucking noise, nothin more |
| 11:33 |
kahrl_ |
sound effect quality is a different issue |
| 11:33 |
kahrl_ |
although still minetest_game ;) |
| 11:34 |
kahrl_ |
I do agree that the current sounds are bad |
| 11:36 |
RealBadAngel |
you know what? |
| 11:36 |
RealBadAngel |
lets make it this way |
| 11:37 |
RealBadAngel |
until this https://github.com/RealBadAngel/mtmusic/blob/master/menu/The%20Descent.mp3 |
| 11:37 |
RealBadAngel |
goes as main menu score, i am hanging all coding for mt project |
| 11:37 |
kahrl_ |
extortion? |
| 11:37 |
kahrl_ |
yay |
| 11:37 |
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| 11:37 |
RealBadAngel |
and i mean it |
| 11:38 |
Calinou |
we do need more sound effects |
| 11:38 |
kilbith |
RealBadAngel: have you ever listened musics from 0ad or Hedgewars ? |
| 11:38 |
Calinou |
we don't even have pain/death sounds |
| 11:38 |
RealBadAngel |
so do it |
| 11:38 |
RealBadAngel |
my way is in effect since now |
| 11:39 |
RealBadAngel |
no more code for mt if this is not merged |
| 11:39 |
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| 11:39 |
Calinou |
we could as well have respawn/teleport sounds, and lava/water ambient sound |
| 11:41 |
kilbith |
RBA, your musics sound like the intro of action movies |
| 11:42 |
kilbith |
this is epic theme that doesn't suit that game |
| 11:42 |
RealBadAngel |
kilbith, menu should be an ivitation to adventure |
| 11:42 |
kilbith |
there is not enough challenge in MT |
| 11:42 |
RealBadAngel |
and a piece for what you will remember the app |
| 11:43 |
kilbith |
even optionally, challenges are shit compared to MC |
| 11:43 |
RealBadAngel |
yes, mt is lacking this |
| 11:43 |
RealBadAngel |
we dont have reasons for users to remember our game |
| 11:43 |
kilbith |
the only existing challenge is griefing and attacking ppl |
| 11:43 |
RealBadAngel |
time to change that |
| 11:43 |
kilbith |
exciting* |
| 11:44 |
RealBadAngel |
i am coding AV stuff |
| 11:44 |
RealBadAngel |
since now i wasnt allowed to change anything realated to this "A" |
| 11:44 |
kilbith |
i'd prefer a polished VBO patch now, honestly |
| 11:44 |
kilbith |
rather than a music |
| 11:45 |
RealBadAngel |
you will |
| 11:45 |
kilbith |
let that stuff to the artists |
| 11:45 |
RealBadAngel |
when the music will be merged |
| 11:45 |
RealBadAngel |
not any minute sooner |
| 11:45 |
RealBadAngel |
until then i will not code anything more |
| 11:45 |
kilbith |
it's blackmail ^ |
| 11:46 |
RealBadAngel |
yes it is |
| 11:48 |
RealBadAngel |
i do earned that right i think |
| 11:49 |
RealBadAngel |
if all of you think different way, maybe its a good time for me to make my fork |
| 11:49 |
RealBadAngel |
and say goodbye |
| 11:49 |
RealBadAngel |
for this time, i am serious and i really mean it |
| 11:50 |
kilbith |
i think you need a good nap :) |
| 11:51 |
RealBadAngel |
music pr was here for long enough |
| 11:51 |
RealBadAngel |
you want AV coder? let him code things |
| 11:51 |
crecca |
sound effects define how the game sounds, not the menu music |
| 11:52 |
crecca |
the menu music should come last, so it finds with the sound design used in-game |
| 11:52 |
RealBadAngel |
im off by now, bbl |
| 11:52 |
crecca |
so it fits* |
| 11:53 |
crecca |
for example there are already bird-songs in-game, I think it should be developed, it is very cool. |
| 11:53 |
crecca |
I've heard sounds of the wind on some servers, albeit really crappy ones, it is a good idea. |
| 11:53 |
crecca |
Echoing caverns is another thing that can add to the mood. |
| 11:54 |
crecca |
In a world like this, a full-band classical orchestra coming out of nowhere doesn't make sense |
| 11:55 |
crecca |
you have to be Stanley Kubrick to pull that off |
| 11:55 |
kilbith |
agreed |
| 11:55 |
crecca |
but that is a problem with many games and movies seem to repeat over and over again... |
| 11:56 |
kilbith |
more generally that's bad idea that devs replace the work of the artists |
| 11:56 |
kilbith |
it's like if my garagist would be self-improvised carpenter |
| 11:56 |
crecca |
at least wear an artist cap... |
| 12:24 |
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| 13:48 |
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est31 joined #minetest-dev |
| 13:48 |
est31 |
whats av stuff |
| 13:50 |
H-H-H |
audio visual ? |
| 13:51 |
est31 |
ah thats the a part |
| 13:52 |
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| 15:45 |
H-H-H |
ok need to do some diffing lol just built the fdroid repo source tgz for android and the sound works fine on my devices yet with master built the same way it doesnt |
| 16:06 |
crecca |
Is the majority of minetest development done on GNU/Linux? |
| 16:07 |
crecca |
I mean minetest core and minetest_game |
| 16:07 |
crecca |
is the development on Windows even viable? |
| 16:08 |
* H-H-H |
gave up on winblows and switced to linux yrs ago |
| 16:29 |
sfan5 |
crecca: you can do minetest development on windows |
| 16:29 |
sfan5 |
cmake works on windows |
| 16:30 |
sfan5 |
you can use either visual studio or mingw |
| 16:30 |
sfan5 |
git also works on windows |
| 16:30 |
crecca |
yeah i was thinking that |
| 16:30 |
sfan5 |
but most of the core devs use linux |
| 16:31 |
crecca |
I'm asking just to know if the familiarity with unix is a requirement or just an option for the stubborn |
| 16:33 |
sfan5 |
requirement for what? |
| 16:34 |
crecca |
for being able to work on minetest code |
| 16:34 |
sfan5 |
it's not a requirement |
| 16:35 |
sfan5 |
it would probably even be an advantage to use windows for development |
| 16:35 |
sfan5 |
a lot of code is written but not tested on windows |
| 16:35 |
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| 16:36 |
Krock |
yeah, just ask me when a windows tester is needed .. |
| 16:38 |
crecca |
sfan5: okay that's good then that the game can be developed on windows too |
| 16:39 |
crecca |
although you can use VM for the purpose of testing and debugging |
| 16:41 |
H-H-H |
also the game is lua so can be developed on anything that can read/write txt files :P the engine is a different beast entirely |
| 16:41 |
crecca |
H-H-H: right |
| 16:45 |
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| 17:22 |
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| 17:25 |
paramat |
hi sfan5 please could you review game#562 ? currently the favourite seems to be asl97's 2nd subtle edit of gambit's texture |
| 17:25 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/562 -- Default: New ice texture by Gambit by paramat |
| 17:25 |
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| 17:27 |
sfan5 |
paramat: https://cloud.githubusercontent.com/assets/4752645/8611487/62282e18-26f4-11e5-8c66-67ade8065c74.png this one? |
| 17:44 |
paramat |
yes asl97's most recent edit |
| 17:45 |
paramat |
so yes that one |
| 17:47 |
Hunterz |
hi paramat, try create something like volcano biome... |
| 17:49 |
paramat |
that's difficult, they would be tiny |
| 17:49 |
paramat |
i might try adding large ones in a future mapgen though |
| 17:50 |
paramat |
sfan thanks for attending to game, it's really neglected recently |
| 17:53 |
paramat |
now i need a 2nd +1 from the team *sigh* (waits to pounce) |
| 18:04 |
sloantothebone |
Hello, can you add in-game .conf editing? |
| 18:04 |
sloantothebone |
I know you have /set but I'd like to see a gui in the menu that opens when you first open minetest |
| 18:05 |
sloantothebone |
with a settings button |
| 18:05 |
sloantothebone |
Do you need more detail |
| 18:05 |
est31 |
its doable in a mod |
| 18:05 |
sloantothebone |
You can change the menu with mods? |
| 18:06 |
est31 |
ah you mean main menu |
| 18:06 |
est31 |
no |
| 18:06 |
sloantothebone |
Yeah main menu |
| 18:06 |
sloantothebone |
Is the main menu written in lua? |
| 18:06 |
est31 |
yes |
| 18:06 |
sloantothebone |
Ok how do I edit .conf in lua |
| 18:07 |
est31 |
its hte Settings object read it up |
| 18:07 |
est31 |
the* |
| 18:07 |
paramat |
'setting set' i think |
| 18:08 |
paramat |
see lua_api.txt |
| 18:18 |
sloantothebone |
Lua_api.txt? |
| 18:19 |
crecca |
there is also menu_lua_api.txt |
| 18:20 |
sloantothebone |
Is it possible to delete the map for a world in lua? |
| 18:20 |
crecca |
although it might be only in the development version |
| 18:21 |
sloantothebone |
I might want to add a checkmark under "creative mode" and "damage enabled" called "hardcore mode" where it deletes the map when you die in a world |
| 18:22 |
paramat |
these modding questions are best asked in the other channel |
| 18:22 |
sloantothebone |
Ok |
| 18:25 |
est31 |
well its mainmenu modding |
| 18:41 |
est31 |
I spoke with celeron55 about a new website design |
| 18:41 |
est31 |
idea is we hold a contest of designs |
| 18:42 |
crecca |
est31: woah, awesome |
| 18:43 |
est31 |
new page will be hosted at github pages and will be static |
| 18:45 |
crecca |
not so awesome... |
| 18:46 |
crecca |
(the github part) |
| 18:47 |
paramat |
sorry sloantothebone i may be wrong about moving the subject to the other channel, so forget what i wrote =) |
| 18:47 |
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| 18:48 |
celeron55 |
crecca: can you explain why that wouldn't be awesome? |
| 18:48 |
crecca |
celeron55: github is not a free platform |
| 18:48 |
sloantothebone |
Oh |
| 18:48 |
celeron55 |
it's the only lightweight way to make a site editable by many members of the community but still have a flexible lightweight-to-make visual style |
| 18:49 |
H-H-H |
set up gitlab thats free iirc |
| 18:49 |
hmmmm |
I don't think there should be music in minetest |
| 18:49 |
crecca |
celeron55: yes that is true |
| 18:49 |
hmmmm |
everybody would just turn it off and listen to their dedicated music player anyway |
| 18:49 |
est31 |
github only demands money from people who want to hide their source from the world |
| 18:50 |
hmmmm |
if it does happen though, I propose we change the main menu music to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnHm4ro_l8s |
| 18:50 |
celeron55 |
crecca: feel free to suggest something else though |
| 18:50 |
celeron55 |
crecca: the current site is hosted by me and is a dokuwiki instance with a custom template |
| 18:50 |
celeron55 |
making those templates can get kind of clumsy |
| 18:53 |
sloantothebone |
Is the Lua compiled? |
| 18:54 |
est31 |
sloantothebone, yes if you activate LuaJIT |
| 18:54 |
sloantothebone |
and if it is, would certain mods run faster in singleplayer if parts of it were ran client-side (when the api has that capability)? |
| 18:54 |
sloantothebone |
Can I make minetest run faster with luajit? |
| 18:54 |
est31 |
it wont be faster, but will have less lag and less load on multiplayer servers |
| 18:54 |
est31 |
yes definitely |
| 18:55 |
sloantothebone |
Why isnt luajit included with minetest? |
| 18:55 |
crecca |
celeron55: yup I understand; the github pages service is a good one, if you don't want to pay for hosting it will be hard to find an alternative that is on par |
| 18:55 |
crecca |
at least the last time I checked |
| 18:55 |
est31 |
sloantothebone, we dont include everything, only whats required for a "minimal" game experience |
| 18:55 |
est31 |
and even that has been softened i think |
| 18:55 |
est31 |
after all we dont ship sqlite anymore |
| 18:55 |
hmmmm |
luajit is specific to x86/64 |
| 18:56 |
est31 |
no |
| 18:56 |
crecca |
If I'll have anything I'll let you know |
| 18:56 |
est31 |
but platforms are limited yes |
| 18:56 |
sloantothebone |
Can you make a reccomendation for luajit on the download page? |
| 18:56 |
est31 |
hmmmm, http://luajit.org/luajit.html |
| 18:56 |
hmmmm |
oh it seems they have arm, ppc, e500 and mips too |
| 18:56 |
hmmmm |
what is e500? |
| 18:56 |
sloantothebone |
I'm trying to find a deb to install it |
| 18:56 |
hmmmm |
ah, another PPC variant it seems |
| 18:57 |
sloantothebone |
Unless all I need are build-essential to compile it |
| 18:57 |
hmmmm |
no SPARC? |
| 18:57 |
hmmmm |
:/ |
| 18:58 |
hmmmm |
so I'd be able to theoretically run luajit on everything except my HP 9000 and the SunBlade |
| 18:58 |
hmmmm |
and the VaxStation of course |
| 18:58 |
hmmmm |
lol minetest on a vaxstation |
| 18:58 |
est31 |
im not sure whether all platforms support actual JIT |
| 18:58 |
est31 |
or only can use the assembler written parser |
| 19:00 |
hmmmm |
heh I bet minetest would be too buggy to play on the more obscure platforms |
| 19:00 |
hmmmm |
e.g. i caught a bunch of instances where people wrote code like... "int foobar = some_u16_value_here" |
| 19:00 |
est31 |
yea |
| 19:00 |
est31 |
even c_converter.h has that issue |
| 19:00 |
est31 |
you have getintfield_default |
| 19:01 |
est31 |
not well defined at all |
| 19:01 |
hmmmm |
unfortunately you can't fix stupid |
| 19:01 |
hmmmm |
i've been realizing lately that no matter how many polices, rules, etc. you put into place, there is no substitute for pure competence in terms of making code good |
| 19:01 |
Calinou |
supa 1337 indeed |
| 19:02 |
est31 |
you sorta have to live the culture hmmmm i think |
| 19:02 |
hmmmm |
I can't force would-be core developers to read CERT C secure coding standards |
| 19:02 |
hmmmm |
or read K&R |
| 19:03 |
hmmmm |
so this is why you get cargo culted code like "u32 foobar = blah; if (foobar > 0xffffffff) ..." |
| 19:04 |
hmmmm |
we would be a huge advantage if we made developers explain exactly the reason why every single line of code they write is necessary to be there |
| 19:04 |
hmmmm |
"so why did you write this line? uhh.." |
| 19:04 |
hmmmm |
"lol i dunno because the other thing did it" |
| 19:04 |
crecca |
maybe if you don't use the extension modules in your luajit code, you can just run good ol' lua parser, instead of luajit |
| 19:05 |
crecca |
or maybe I'm completely wrong |
| 19:05 |
hmmmm |
aren't the only extension modules FFI and BitOp? |
| 19:06 |
crecca |
http://luajit.org/extensions.html |
| 19:06 |
crecca |
few more |
| 19:06 |
hmmmm |
hmm |
| 19:07 |
est31 |
luajit btw does have a fix for valgrind you only have to recompile it with another config option |
| 19:09 |
sfan5 |
<est31> im not sure whether all platforms support actual JIT |
| 19:09 |
sfan5 |
every modern processor can support JIT |
| 19:09 |
sfan5 |
no matter which architecture |
| 19:10 |
est31 |
well not a harvard one |
| 19:10 |
sfan5 |
crecca: also you can build minetest with standard lua, luajit is not required |
| 19:11 |
est31 |
but my point was more directed towards whether luajit supports it |
| 19:11 |
sfan5 |
is there any modern proccessor with havard arch.? |
| 19:11 |
est31 |
not jit in general |
| 19:11 |
celeron55 |
crecca: well i mean, if github pages goes paid or starts doing something that we don't like, i can just implement some kind of a repo puller on my VPS |
| 19:11 |
est31 |
no, but I think some optimisations have weaked up von neumann |
| 19:11 |
celeron55 |
crecca: but as long as github pages exist for free, it's not worth it to build the same thing oneself |
| 19:11 |
est31 |
but you wont see anything performance wise i think |
| 19:12 |
crecca |
celeron55: yeah that's why it's a minor issue, hosts can always be changed, if the situation changes |
| 19:12 |
celeron55 |
we just have to make sure we aren't using any fancy stuff that's hard to implement on another host |
| 19:12 |
celeron55 |
not sure if they offer anything like that right now |
| 19:12 |
crecca |
it's just not "awesome" |
| 19:13 |
crecca |
it's the service that is the most convenient, not the actual technical functionality |
| 19:14 |
crecca |
(and github totally understood this when they introduced github pages) |
| 19:16 |
crecca |
sfan5: I just realized I don't have luajit installed lol |
| 19:18 |
* crecca |
recompiles |
| 19:18 |
sfan5 |
you possible need to delete CMakeCache.txt and CMakeFiles to make cmake redo library detection |
| 19:18 |
sfan5 |
possibly* |
| 19:20 |
sloantothebone |
I need help with troubleshooting, my chat is laggy |
| 19:20 |
sloantothebone |
So is the inventory |
| 19:20 |
crecca |
yeah good call |
| 19:20 |
sloantothebone |
I get messages in irc before I get them in minetest |
| 19:21 |
sfan5 |
that doesn't automatically mean that your lagging |
| 19:21 |
sfan5 |
also please discuss this in #minetest |
| 19:28 |
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| 19:45 |
Calinou |
seriously, can someone fix the glitches where a respawned player is not really teleported? |
| 19:54 |
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| 20:06 |
hmmmm |
is there an issue on github for it |
| 20:13 |
Calinou |
nope |
| 20:14 |
est31 |
is it that "moved too fast -- resetting position" thing |
| 20:14 |
Calinou |
it is not related |
| 20:14 |
Calinou |
it happens on servers with anticheat disabled |
| 20:15 |
Calinou |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2903 |
| 20:15 |
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| 20:15 |
est31 |
doesnt it give any logging message? |
| 20:16 |
est31 |
I see the hunger games creators have "fixed" it by teleporting players every second to the starting positions during countdown |
| 20:17 |
Calinou |
nothing happens in logs IIRC |
| 20:19 |
sfan5 |
est31: i think thats a seperate feature not a fix for that bug |
| 20:20 |
est31 |
sfan5, its both |
| 20:20 |
est31 |
perhaps accidental fix |
| 20:20 |
est31 |
dunno |
| 20:20 |
est31 |
im not the author :) |
| 20:24 |
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| 20:27 |
paramat |
hey mtgame team, can anyone give the ice texture the second necessary +1? Tesseract? |
| 20:28 |
kilbith |
this is so cosmetical stuff that you don't need to IMO |
| 20:33 |
est31 |
Tesseract, you also are one of the few engine devs to have the knowledge required to review #2898 |
| 20:33 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2898 -- Add AreaStore data structure by est31 |
| 20:34 |
est31 |
(and you are the areas mod author, to where I've sent another PR) |
| 20:34 |
paramat |
sfan5 how about my approval counting since i added the snow biomes myself? |
| 20:34 |
sfan5 |
it's a texture issue |
| 20:34 |
sfan5 |
biome does not matter |
| 20:35 |
sfan5 |
(or who added it) |
| 20:40 |
paramat |
yes that's what i thought =) |
| 20:59 |
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| 21:34 |
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| 21:36 |
Calinou |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1908 |
| 21:36 |
Calinou |
makes sprinting feel much better, still automatically merge-able |
| 21:37 |
hmmmm |
i hate these parameter adjustment CLs |
| 21:37 |
hmmmm |
can we please stop doing them |
| 21:38 |
hmmmm |
if you want to change something, write some actual code to make it adjustable and then set the /default/ to what you think is better |
| 21:42 |
Calinou |
do we really need a minetest.conf setting for this? |
| 21:42 |
Calinou |
this is not DarkPlaces, we don't want ~2500 settings :P |
| 21:44 |
hmmmm |
it's vastly more productive than making a PR to change some numerical constant whose effect is up to the creator's subjective tastes |
| 21:44 |
hmmmm |
we want code, not opinions |
| 21:45 |
sfan5 |
what a shitty way to do discussions |
| 21:45 |
sfan5 |
saying something and then leaving irc |
| 21:45 |
hmmmm |
didn't notice that |
| 21:45 |
hmmmm |
oh well, he can see the logs |
| 21:52 |
hmmmm |
can anybody point me to the issue on github for the flat player glitch? |
| 21:59 |
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| 22:03 |
* VanessaE |
peeks in |
| 22:05 |
VanessaE |
hmmmm: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2524 |
| 22:05 |
VanessaE |
sort of. only reference I could find. |
| 22:07 |
hmmmm |
have you been able to readily reproduce it |
| 22:10 |
hmmmm |
unrelated: https://github.com/kwolekr/minetest/commit/473af3f6d58dfebb05e4ca221291d441607f6583 |
| 22:10 |
hmmmm |
PTAL |
| 22:11 |
VanessaE |
"readily" is not quite the right word, rather "frequently". Happens a lot on VE-C. |
| 22:11 |
* VanessaE |
looks.. |
| 22:13 |
VanessaE |
interesting unit test. :) |
| 22:13 |
VanessaE |
I'll go ahead and put that in the servers' build and see what it bre--er does. :) |
| 22:14 |
hmmmm |
i'll have to spend some time on your server |
| 22:15 |
hmmmm |
do i not need to do anything special |
| 22:15 |
VanessaE |
nope, just sign on. and try again, and again, and... :) |
| 22:15 |
hmmmm |
just keep joining and leaving until I see players |
| 22:15 |
hmmmm |
with the bug |
| 22:15 |
hmmmm |
okay |
| 22:15 |
VanessaE |
VE-Creative is the worst of them, where the flat glitch, 0,0,0 glitch, and so forth happen. VE-Survival is where the serialization error happens most often |
| 22:16 |
VanessaE |
OH, you can see the flat glitch for yourself too |
| 22:16 |
VanessaE |
press f7 after sign-on |
| 22:16 |
VanessaE |
s/for/on/ |
| 22:16 |
hmmmm |
what does F7 do? |
| 22:16 |
VanessaE |
third-person view |
| 22:16 |
hmmmm |
ahh okay |
| 22:16 |
hmmmm |
sweet |
| 22:26 |
hmmmm |
so describe to me exactly what i'm looking for here? |
| 22:27 |
hmmmm |
the green guy shows up sometimes, and other times the player model texture is messed up |
| 22:27 |
VanessaE |
that's it. |
| 22:27 |
hmmmm |
how much of a % would you estimate each happens on VE-Creative? |
| 22:27 |
hmmmm |
of each player viewed |
| 22:27 |
VanessaE |
if you look close, "messed up" also correlates to a flat sprite image |
| 22:27 |
VanessaE |
um |
| 22:27 |
VanessaE |
on a bad day at least 75% of the time the skin will turn up flat or green-guy |
| 22:27 |
hmmmm |
in any case I'm guessing that the model parsing fails or something like that and it 'falls back' to the flat guy |
| 22:28 |
hmmmm |
and i'm also guessing it's due to file transfer corruption, possibly |
| 22:28 |
hmmmm |
or a screwed up parameter serialization |
| 22:28 |
hmmmm |
who knows |
| 22:29 |
VanessaE |
I would assume param serialization, as it happens to veteran users with full caches (including the model and skin) also |
| 22:29 |
hmmmm |
that sounds more like it, seeing as how this happened with nerzhul's change which did not modify the transport layer of the protocol (mostly serialization/deserialization of command-specific data) |
| 22:30 |
VanessaE |
hm. just looked at this week's overview map for VE-Vanilla ... weren't we supposed to have v6 snow biomes? |
| 22:30 |
hmmmm |
i'm just throwing out nonsensical ideas that might be possible |
| 22:30 |
hmmmm |
yes.. they're not enabled by default |
| 22:30 |
hmmmm |
do you want your already existing map to start adding them in? |
| 22:31 |
VanessaE |
well consider this: VE-Survival gets that huge, sometimes-screenfull serialization error as in that other bug report. maybe the fix you provided will help both? |
| 22:32 |
VanessaE |
nah, there's no reason right now to turn snow biomes on. Someone had just asked me if there was a way to get ice, which prompted me to look at the overview in case there were new biomes showing up. |
| 22:33 |
VanessaE |
(at least, no reason to turn them on for an existing world. I see nothing wrong with turning them on by default for new worlds though, if the settings and such are stable) |
| 22:35 |
VanessaE |
one tool I need to get off my ass and write is a "strip the map down" program, something that'll delete mapblocks if they don't contain anything more than the standard mapgen stuff |
| 22:43 |
VanessaE |
um, is this normal? http://digitalaudioconcepts.com/vanessa/hobbies/minetest/screenshots/random/Screenshot_2015-07-11_18-41-32.png |
| 22:43 |
VanessaE |
(specifically the distant caves visible between the two loaded sections of map) |
| 22:43 |
VanessaE |
(the two separately-loaded sections is fine - I teleported around a bit) |
| 22:52 |
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| 22:52 |
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| 22:53 |
paramat |
Vanessa those 'distant caves' are under the far section of terrain, so seem okay |
| 22:54 |
VanessaE |
ok. I don't teleport around much, particularly where there'll be unloaded map in my view, so I wasn't sure. |
| 22:55 |
paramat |
v6 snow biomes are enabled by default for new worlds |
| 22:55 |
VanessaE |
that's what I thought |
| 22:56 |
VanessaE |
hmmmm: let me know when you've sufficiently tested your connection to VE-Survival (30001), and I'll deploy that patch. |
| 22:58 |
paramat |
game#550 has a new leaves texture and seems ready to go |
| 22:58 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/550 -- Default: Add savanna nodes, crafting and fuels by paramat |
| 22:58 |
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| 23:00 |
VanessaE |
interesting look |
| 23:00 |
VanessaE |
you should use my l-system acacia trees :) |
| 23:03 |
VanessaE |
oh I see why you didn't. |
| 23:04 |
paramat |
it's the 'umbrella thorn' 'acacia tortilis' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vachellia_tortilis |
| 23:04 |
paramat |
big pale thons |
| 23:04 |
paramat |
*thorns |
| 23:06 |
paramat |
and wide flat canopy. l-system is slower |
| 23:07 |
VanessaE |
that's the model I was going for also |
| 23:07 |
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| 23:08 |
VanessaE |
damn it, why did you have to point to that page. It has good imagery of the tree and now I have to add HDX support :P |
| 23:09 |
crecca |
will there be gnus on the savanna? |
| 23:10 |
paramat |
lol |
| 23:10 |
VanessaE |
haha |
| 23:16 |
hmmmm |
vanessae: sure |
| 23:16 |
hmmmm |
i'm starting on it now |
| 23:16 |
VanessaE |
ok. |
| 23:17 |
hmmmm |
so to make sure |
| 23:17 |
VanessaE |
hmmmm: one thing that seems to help cause it is if you run several additional client instances in singleplayer, enough to drag down the responsiveness of your machine, while you're focused on the one you're connecting to VE-S with. |
| 23:17 |
hmmmm |
PlayerSAO is the object that players are represented with, which is the thing that actually contains m_prop.textures() |
| 23:18 |
hmmmm |
m_prop being an ObjectProperties |
| 23:18 |
hmmmm |
so you think it's a race condition |
| 23:18 |
VanessaE |
could be. at this point I'm utterly clueless |
| 23:19 |
hmmmm |
i can't help but wonder if this could be caused by the serialization error |
| 23:20 |
VanessaE |
possibly. I say the above because ordinarily I don't see the serialization error -- but the one time I decide to run several client instances at one (for that 11-client stress test for example), is the one time that connecting to VE-S almost guaranteed a serialization error, until cheapie teleported me away from the spawn area out to the middle of nowhere |
| 23:20 |
VanessaE |
while others, cheapie included, get those errors pretrry regularly, with only their one client instance |
| 23:20 |
VanessaE |
pretty* |
| 23:20 |
hmmmm |
does your creative server not have 11 clients on it regularly? |
| 23:21 |
VanessaE |
11 clients refers to 11 instances of minetest on my box, each connected to a different server. |
| 23:21 |
VanessaE |
but no it doesn't usually have much traffic these days. most of the time it is idle, or maybe 1 or 2 players. |
| 23:25 |
hmmmm |
my guess is that ObjectProperties::deSerialize is failing but the SerializationError is ignored |
| 23:25 |
hmmmm |
this code is plain retarded |
| 23:25 |
VanessaE |
lol |
| 23:25 |
hmmmm |
it's never okay to ignore errors like this |
| 23:26 |
|
asl97 joined #minetest-dev |
| 23:27 |
hmmmm |
of course it's not even possible to get a serializationerror because nothing throws them |
| 23:27 |
hmmmm |
I wonder how much of a shitstorm minetest would have if I started actually throwing serializationerrors on a bad read in readU* and related functions |
| 23:30 |
VanessaE |
my guess is it would be a total clusterfuck. |
| 23:30 |
VanessaE |
:) |
| 23:36 |
hmmmm |
which one is your creative server again? |
| 23:36 |
hmmmm |
nevermind used the public serverlist |
| 23:36 |
VanessaE |
30000 |
| 23:36 |
VanessaE |
ok. |
| 23:37 |
VanessaE |
that's the one you're gonna play hell connecting to |
| 23:37 |
hmmmm |
llo |
| 23:37 |
VanessaE |
at least if it's acting up |
| 23:37 |
hmmmm |
"my username is jibberish" |
| 23:37 |
VanessaE |
lol |
| 23:37 |
VanessaE |
yeah, anything longer than 5 chars is tested against sfan5's anti-gibberish filter |
| 23:37 |
hmmmm |
oh ffs |
| 23:37 |
hmmmm |
what is not gibberish? according to sfan5? |
| 23:37 |
VanessaE |
I got tired of people signing on as dhjeqiupfhiupsehfsa :P |
| 23:38 |
VanessaE |
anything that's remotely pronouncable |
| 23:38 |
VanessaE |
or you can just use 'hmmmm' as you do here, that should fit. |
| 23:39 |
hmmmm |
hmm |
| 23:39 |
hmmmm |
2015-07-11 19:38:53: ERROR[CurlFetchThread]: http://minetest.digitalaudioconcepts.com/creative-survival-media/index.mth not found (HTTP response code said error) (response code 404) |
| 23:39 |
VanessaE |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1466 |
| 23:40 |
VanessaE |
I use the flat-folder method, rather than the filenames-by-hash method (which would supply that ^^^ file) |
| 23:44 |
hmmmm |
ermm |
| 23:44 |
hmmmm |
i can't see the other instances of my clients |
| 23:48 |
VanessaE |
weird. |
| 23:49 |
VanessaE |
maybe related though |
| 23:49 |
VanessaE |
you sure you didn't get hit by the "player delete" bug? |
| 23:49 |
VanessaE |
when it happens, it's usually immediately after connecting |
| 23:49 |
VanessaE |
you get like half a dozen mapblocks' worth of world and then, nothing. |
| 23:50 |
VanessaE |
I can see your sign-ons though, from IRC anyway |
| 23:56 |
hmmmm |
yeah i dunno |
| 23:56 |
hmmmm |
this is so screwed up |
| 23:56 |
hmmmm |
and laggy to boot |
| 23:56 |
VanessaE |
yep |
| 23:56 |
VanessaE |
meanwhile VE-V is nice and spritely |
| 23:56 |
hmmmm |
they get stuck in this half-emerged state where I see a gray background but only players |
| 23:56 |
hmmmm |
and then i can't chat from it |
| 23:56 |
hmmmm |
and i don't get others' chats |
| 23:56 |
VanessaE |
yep, that's another manifestation of it. |
| 23:57 |
hmmmm |
lots of "got message for object blah blah blah that doesn't exist" |
| 23:57 |
hmmmm |
and now the players are fucking flashing |
| 23:57 |
hmmmm |
what the hell |
| 23:57 |
hmmmm |
how can you stand this? |
| 23:57 |
VanessaE |
I can't. |
| 23:57 |
VanessaE |
I've been bitching about this for a while now |
| 23:57 |
VanessaE |
but I don't have the heart to shut the server down |
| 23:58 |
hmmmm |
i would quit minetest altogether this is so horrible |
| 23:58 |
VanessaE |
I'm stubborn :) |
| 23:59 |
hmmmm |
but people would rather focus on adding new cool features instead of making this shit work |
| 23:59 |
VanessaE |
mmhmm |
| 23:59 |
VanessaE |
THIS is why I called for a multi-week feature freeze |
| 23:59 |
hmmmm |
i really am going to get flack for saying this but i thin k |
