| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 00:01 |
Wuzzy |
Hi all! What do you think of this mod?: https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=12244 This looks like it could go (maybe in modified form) into builtin. |
| 00:21 |
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| 01:26 |
est |
Now I want to test other compression methods for mapblocks, and for that I need some kind of testing playground |
| 01:26 |
est |
to determine whether the new method is faster or so |
| 01:26 |
est |
and smaller |
| 01:26 |
est |
now I'm wondering how to best do this |
| 01:27 |
est |
bc of all this emergethreading stuff |
| 01:28 |
est |
so I am right with my assumption hmmmm that servermap::emergeBlock() does not always return a mapblock with contents, even if it has to do mapgen first? |
| 01:28 |
hmmmm |
that's true |
| 01:28 |
hmmmm |
initially, emergeBlock() synchronously generated a block inside of the ServerThread if it didn't exist |
| 01:28 |
hmmmm |
I removed this because it was... destructive |
| 01:29 |
hmmmm |
the idea was to have an asynochronous notification when a block finished being created but I guess that never happened |
| 01:29 |
est |
yea that would be the right approach |
| 01:30 |
est |
so currently, you can only say "generate this and that for me" and it will write that into the map once finished, but no way to get notified? |
| 01:30 |
hmmmm |
basically, yeah |
| 01:30 |
est |
means more hacking around :( |
| 01:30 |
hmmmm |
it's a lot more work than it might sound |
| 01:31 |
hmmmm |
but the upshot of this is that we know there's always exactly one producer of map and exactly one consumer |
| 01:32 |
est |
and if ppl have multiple emergethreads? |
| 01:32 |
hmmmm |
well that's a special case |
| 01:32 |
hmmmm |
in the future i hope to make multiple emergethreads useful |
| 01:33 |
hmmmm |
this is a technical challenge, however, due to some logical oversights with the whole system that aren't too easy to work around |
| 01:33 |
est |
they don't help right now? |
| 01:33 |
hmmmm |
they do but not as much as they should |
| 01:33 |
est |
k |
| 01:33 |
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| 01:33 |
hmmmm |
right now having multiple emergethreads is actually worse for single player |
| 01:33 |
hmmmm |
since they tend to hog resources off of the game thread |
| 01:33 |
hmmmm |
but it does produce map... REALLY fast |
| 01:34 |
est |
but that depends on your system's config, right? |
| 01:34 |
hmmmm |
not really |
| 01:34 |
hmmmm |
I have 8 cores and the lag is noticable with even 3 emergethreads |
| 01:34 |
est |
thats bad |
| 01:35 |
hmmmm |
you can't lower the priority for emergethreads on non-windows |
| 01:35 |
hmmmm |
because you'd have to change the scheduling policy |
| 01:35 |
est |
and that needs root? |
| 01:35 |
hmmmm |
yes |
| 01:35 |
Wuzzy |
let me just repeat what I have said ca. 1.5 hours ago |
| 01:35 |
Wuzzy |
Hi all! What do you think of this mod?: https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=12244 This looks like it could go (maybe in modified form) into builtin. |
| 01:36 |
hmmmm |
it's also possibly less efficient than the system default scheduler |
| 01:37 |
est |
is there another way to get this synchronously? |
| 01:37 |
est |
I guess voxelmanips? |
| 01:37 |
hmmmm |
not currently... are you trying to do something in particular? |
| 01:38 |
est |
only benchmarking |
| 01:38 |
est |
new compression vs old |
| 01:38 |
hmmmm |
you could just copy what happens in the emerge thread relevant for making/sending map |
| 01:40 |
est |
can I use MMVManip somehow? |
| 01:41 |
est |
I've seen the c++ side of lua's voxelmanip is a subclass of that |
| 01:41 |
est |
and in lua you can force mapgen an area by constructing a voxelmanip around it. |
| 01:45 |
est |
that should really work |
| 01:47 |
est |
interesting the field m_create_area inside MMVManip isn't used |
| 01:57 |
est |
meh, I guess I just give this up |
| 01:57 |
est |
I'll have to fly around a bit |
| 02:23 |
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| 03:01 |
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| 03:47 |
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| 04:24 |
est31 |
pushing in 10 minutes: https://github.com/est31/minetest/commit/378df62234e47bdd49e0bf0591926a4a35731b14 |
| 04:26 |
hmmmm |
+1 |
| 04:27 |
hmmmm |
ahh, I forgot to change all the instances of MAP_BLOCKSIZE |
| 04:27 |
est31 |
pushing now then |
| 04:39 |
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| 04:43 |
paramat |
will push game#520 soon |
| 04:47 |
paramat |
please can the HP bug be fixed soonish? it's irritating, i need to fly underwater when working on mapgen |
| 04:48 |
est31 |
today we had the second PR that tried to fix the bug |
| 04:52 |
paramat |
now pushing to mtgame |
| 04:58 |
paramat |
complete |
| 05:10 |
est31 |
lol multoplication |
| 05:10 |
est31 |
nice typo |
| 05:25 |
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| 05:45 |
paramat |
hi nore, any comments added to https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/521 will be appreciated, it took a long time to perfect, finally i'm happy with it |
| 05:45 |
nore |
hi paramat |
| 05:47 |
nore |
it looks good! |
| 05:47 |
paramat |
cool |
| 05:49 |
paramat |
i'll prepare a PR for it |
| 05:57 |
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| 08:27 |
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| 08:29 |
neoascetic |
Hi all. What I have to install on debian in order to build server only? Am I still need all these libfreetype, libxxf86vm-dev etc? |
| 08:29 |
Zeno` |
nope |
| 08:30 |
neoascetic |
Ok, what deps for servers are required? Is there some FAQ? |
| 08:30 |
Zeno` |
just start with irrlicht and build |
| 08:30 |
neoascetic |
oh, well :) |
| 08:30 |
Zeno` |
when you come across a dependency (because the build will fail), install it and continue :) |
| 08:30 |
Zeno` |
cmake will tell you what's needed |
| 08:31 |
neoascetic |
okay, thx |
| 08:31 |
Zeno` |
there should be a FAQ, but I'm not sure where it is... I just do the cmake method (it's quicker lol) |
| 08:32 |
Zeno` |
be aware that cmake will not fail if sqlite is missing (it will use the bundled version); it will also not fail if, say, leveldb is not installed (because that's optional) |
| 08:32 |
Zeno` |
so make sure you read the cmake output carefully once it passes |
| 08:32 |
neoascetic |
why do we have bundled sqlite? |
| 08:32 |
Zeno` |
maybe we don't anymore. But make sure LuaJIT is installed at least |
| 08:33 |
Zeno` |
over to #minetest for a sec, please? |
| 08:34 |
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| 09:01 |
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| 09:03 |
Zeno` |
Will merge #2744 in 10 minutes or so |
| 09:04 |
Zeno` |
we have no bot? |
| 09:04 |
Zeno` |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/2744 |
| 09:05 |
Krock |
ShadowBot is offline, yes |
| 09:05 |
Zeno` |
ok |
| 09:10 |
sfan5 |
uhh |
| 09:10 |
sfan5 |
nvm |
| 09:11 |
sfan5 |
Krock: your commit does more than the server does |
| 09:11 |
Krock |
sfan5, explain, please. |
| 09:12 |
sfan5 |
also I'd change "cURL is required to announce the server" to "cURL is required to announce to the server list" |
| 09:12 |
sfan5 |
Krock: your commit msg says "Throw a warning if cURL is missing when building server" |
| 09:13 |
sfan5 |
Krock: but your commit does "Automatically enable server and curl support if client disabled" and the thing your msg actually says |
| 09:13 |
Krock |
ah I see |
| 09:14 |
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| 09:14 |
Zeno` |
Well I was going to change that, but yes |
| 09:14 |
Zeno` |
Krock, fix it! Pronto! |
| 09:14 |
sfan5 |
Krock: if(CURL_FOUND) else(BUILD_SERVER) endif() || it's easy to miss the BUILD_SERVER |
| 09:14 |
sfan5 |
someone might think it says the warning when curl is not found |
| 09:14 |
sfan5 |
hm |
| 09:15 |
sfan5 |
actually that could make sense |
| 09:15 |
sfan5 |
you can run a server with the client build too |
| 09:15 |
Zeno` |
yeah I think that's correct. Maybe a comment |
| 09:15 |
Krock |
cURL is helpful for clients, so no problem if you mean that |
| 09:16 |
Zeno` |
yeah I think it should make the warning for both |
| 09:17 |
Krock |
and finally we're at the sound warning if it's not enabled |
| 09:18 |
Krock |
no, I think it's good how it is (updated the commit) |
| 09:18 |
sfan5 |
Krock: can you make it warn for both client and server? |
| 09:20 |
Krock |
"cURL is required to load the server list"? |
| 09:21 |
Calinou |
it is required for both |
| 09:21 |
sfan5 |
Krock: your commit msg still doesn't describe what your commit actually does |
| 09:22 |
Krock |
"This commit adds some lines to cmakelists.txt in the minetest project" |
| 09:28 |
Zeno` |
maybe always emit the warning and change it to "cURL is required for the public server list" (or something generic like that) |
| 09:31 |
Zeno` |
Also the commit title "Modify CMakelists.txt" isn't all *that* bad as a title if the body of the commit has two lines explaining the 2 things it does (adds a cURL warning and sets BUILD_SERVER to true if BUILD_CLIENT is false) |
| 09:32 |
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| 10:03 |
celeron55 |
https://twitter.com/glassbottommeg/status/604407061380640768 |
| 10:07 |
jin_xi |
it is a hard problem |
| 10:18 |
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| 10:19 |
celeron55 |
the funny thing is, most of those are probably created by the children themselves who they are trying to "protect" 8) |
| 10:20 |
celeron55 |
or at least one funny thing |
| 10:22 |
Calinou |
“Funny story - we were asked to make dong detection software for LEGO Universe too. We found it to be utterly impossible at any scale.†|
| 10:22 |
Calinou |
this is regularly discussed in #web |
| 10:29 |
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| 12:49 |
kahrl |
um, what does the if(CURL_FOUND) else(BUILD_SERVER) syntax actally do |
| 12:49 |
kahrl |
I thought you had to use the same expression (or none) in the else command as in the if command |
| 12:50 |
kahrl |
if you want an elseif use elseif(expression) |
| 12:56 |
sfan5 |
kahrl: it looks like if(foo) dog elseif(bar) cat endif() is actually if(foo) dof else() if(bar) cat endif() endif() |
| 12:56 |
sfan5 |
s/dof/dog/ |
| 12:57 |
kahrl |
yeah, those should be equivalent |
| 12:57 |
kahrl |
but Krock used else() instead of elseif() |
| 12:57 |
kahrl |
else(expr) I mean |
| 12:58 |
kahrl |
it looks like the expression passed to else is ignored, if CURL_FOUND is false then the first else is always run regardless of what BUILD_SERVER is |
| 12:59 |
kahrl |
and the second else is never run |
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| 15:54 |
Kenney_ |
Hey guys |
| 15:54 |
Kenney_ |
Got a question; Im going to be accepting donations for Voxus and I would like X percentage of those donations to flow back into Minetest development |
| 15:55 |
Kenney_ |
what would be the best way? Im thinking bounties for solving/adding/fixing issues and feature requests. Let me know what you think |
| 15:58 |
celeron55 |
not sure if this helps but there are already small bounties on two issues here: https://www.bountysource.com/teams/minetest/issues |
| 15:59 |
celeron55 |
nobody has ever resolved any issue that has bounties on bountysource though so there's no experience of that |
| 15:59 |
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| 15:59 |
Kenney_ |
hm, right. well hopefully some better bounties could take care of that |
| 16:00 |
neoascetic |
I have resolved! |
| 16:00 |
neoascetic |
But payed back to myself through :) |
| 16:00 |
celeron55 |
lol |
| 16:00 |
Kenney_ |
would it be possible to add hooks to the github entry of Minetest to auto tag issues/features with bounties? |
| 16:00 |
neoascetic |
here this issue: https://www.bountysource.com/issues/4723941-osx-0-4-10-assertion-failed |
| 16:01 |
neoascetic |
I think better bountysource integration will do the trick :) |
| 16:02 |
kahrl |
if you pay yourself, does paypal/whatever take a cut? |
| 16:02 |
neoascetic |
Boutysource take 10% (or lower) fee only when you want to take money from the system. |
| 16:02 |
neoascetic |
You may spent it to other issues without fee |
| 16:03 |
neoascetic |
First, I even put into system not dollars, but bitcoins :) something about 0.004 |
| 16:04 |
kahrl |
honestly that's quite a large cut, I'd rather circumvent that middleman |
| 16:04 |
celeron55 |
Kenney_: it seems like bountysource provides a thing for doing that |
| 16:04 |
Krock |
why not dogecins? |
| 16:04 |
Kenney_ |
yep it does, neoascetic just told me |
| 16:04 |
neoascetic |
you may convert them to bitcoins first :) As I did with my primecoins |
| 16:05 |
neoascetic |
on minetestmapper: what for freeimage branch exist? |
| 16:06 |
celeron55 |
kahrl: i too think that 10% is rather much; but what are the alternatives? |
| 16:06 |
Kenney_ |
alright, prepare for more requests from me - need to add them in order to add bounties |
| 16:06 |
kahrl |
I have no idea |
| 16:07 |
Kenney_ |
i think im just going to create a forum post or something, that lists issues + bounty from me personally, and then see if/when they get sold and PayPal the money by hand |
| 16:07 |
celeron55 |
you can do that; however it will only work if people trust you |
| 16:07 |
Kenney_ |
hm, thats true |
| 16:07 |
neoascetic |
I think bountysource is good not for take a lot of money, but instead to make faster issue fixes in any open source project |
| 16:07 |
celeron55 |
i guess at least some will, though, so it might work |
| 16:07 |
neoascetic |
you got money on one project -> you spent it to another |
| 16:08 |
Kenney_ |
i dont like the fact that i first need to transfer the money to bountysource |
| 16:08 |
Kenney_ |
bountysource could just go bankrupt, or what if the issue gets resolved a different way than intented? |
| 16:08 |
celeron55 |
i guess personally i would trust a direct bounty from Kenney_ |
| 16:09 |
neoascetic |
bountysource works for 3 years and IBM, Mozilla, Github work through it |
| 16:09 |
Kenney_ |
righ yeah but how to add more trust to it? possibly adding company details of mine |
| 16:09 |
neoascetic |
It means nothing if we are in different countries |
| 16:09 |
Kenney_ |
like my chamber of commerce registration |
| 16:09 |
Kenney_ |
thats true though yeah |
| 16:10 |
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| 16:10 |
Kenney_ |
what forum would be best to put the bounty thread in? |
| 16:10 |
celeron55 |
if you start with small bounties for smaller things with less risk and let people give public feedback, it might work out just fine |
| 16:11 |
celeron55 |
however be prepared that money is a touchy subject in a hobbyist community like this |
| 16:11 |
Kenney_ |
true, very true |
| 16:12 |
Kenney_ |
although, there are some many benefits. It would make Voxus an awesome game, improve the Minetest engine, improve other mods and reward the developers |
| 16:12 |
neoascetic |
sfan5 what is freeimage branch in minetestmapper for? |
| 16:12 |
sfan5 |
it uses freeimage instead of libgd |
| 16:13 |
celeron55 |
hmm... there's no good place for this on the forum; i wonder how to sort that out |
| 16:13 |
kahrl |
mailing list? |
| 16:13 |
Kenney_ |
possibly ´Feature Discussion´? |
| 16:13 |
Kenney_ |
im mostly going to put bounty on features hah |
| 16:15 |
neoascetic |
Who trust me that I'll pay $20 for #1367 ? I have no company and live in Russia |
| 16:16 |
neoascetic |
Bountysource fixes that to trust/not to trust issue for us. Why don't simply use it? 10% fee is the only stopper I guess |
| 16:16 |
celeron55 |
Kenney_: i'd say post it in "Minetest-related projects"; we'll see what kind of discussion springs up and possibly move it accordingly |
| 16:16 |
Kenney_ |
great, will do! |
| 16:17 |
neoascetic |
But I even think it is for good, not for bad -> you don't want to pay that 10% fee, money still may go to (some) open-source project |
| 16:17 |
Kenney_ |
10% fee is pretty much if you want to put up a 100 dollar bounty |
| 16:17 |
neoascetic |
You must do not care when money go next. It is not your headache. |
| 16:18 |
Kenney_ |
well if the money are donations from people I do actually care where it goes to |
| 16:20 |
neoascetic |
yeah... nevermind. I hope no one will delete minetest team on bountysource because personally I love the way how it works and will continue post bounties through it :) |
| 16:24 |
celeron55 |
i'm a bit worried about somebody coming up with bad solutions to the bountied issues and us being not prepared to handle those properly; how do other projects solve this? it seems to me that Kenney_ should state right from the beginning that a solution will only get the bounty if it is accepted by both Kenney_ and... well i guess myself, and i will try to consult a relevant contributor if possible |
| 16:24 |
neoascetic |
celeron55 may you please connect bountysource with github in a better way? https://www.bountysource.com/tools It won't cost you a thing |
| 16:25 |
neoascetic |
> somebody coming up with bad solutions |
| 16:25 |
neoascetic |
bounty should be payed out only if PR was merged |
| 16:25 |
Kenney_ |
celeron55: hows this? http://puu.sh/i7hQJ/8481c86faf.png |
| 16:25 |
neoascetic |
that how it works |
| 16:28 |
celeron55 |
neoascetic: ...it's not always that simple; but i guess we can hope it is that simple for these ones |
| 16:30 |
Krock |
using money as motivation? interesting system |
| 16:33 |
celeron55 |
i think i actually need to raise yet another concern for the benefit of everyone: some bounties could be for things that me or other core developers can't agree to have in the engine either at all (unlikely) or made in a certain way (eg. implemented separately instead of within a larger, better designed system) |
| 16:33 |
celeron55 |
and solving these requires a lot of work from everyone that should be done before even announcing the bounties |
| 16:33 |
Kenney_ |
hm, true |
| 16:34 |
neoascetic |
yeah, probably |
| 16:34 |
neoascetic |
so, core-devs moderated list of bonties? |
| 16:35 |
neoascetic |
however, if issue was fixed, money will go back to they owner on bountysource |
| 16:35 |
neoascetic |
was fixed -> was closed |
| 16:37 |
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| 16:37 |
celeron55 |
the only solution is to require a design review for issues before a bounties are allowed; and this isn't really a thing where slacking off for months is a valid thing to do |
| 16:38 |
celeron55 |
i guess i'm going to have to do it |
| 16:38 |
Kenney_ |
alright, I got a list compiled of features + bounty Id like to put on it |
| 16:40 |
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| 16:43 |
Kenney_ |
celeron55 you can view them here, posted them on a dead forum of mine as a temp solution. If you think all/any features can be added for bounty ill create a thread on the minetest forums; http://kenneyland.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=188 |
| 16:43 |
Kenney_ |
total bounty amount if $190 |
| 16:46 |
celeron55 |
i feel i probably need to write a comment for most explaining a bit about how it should probably be done |
| 16:46 |
Kenney_ |
im not too technical so yeah, thats up to you im afraid |
| 16:48 |
celeron55 |
also if this becomes a trend, i will probably start asking a $1 per bounty review them; but i will volunteer for now |
| 16:48 |
celeron55 |
-them |
| 16:48 |
Kenney_ |
hah yeah totally |
| 16:49 |
celeron55 |
anyway, i'll start going through these now; let's see how long this takes |
| 16:55 |
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| 17:00 |
celeron55 |
yeah, here's some initial taste of what kind of stuff i need to do: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2727 |
| 17:00 |
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| 17:01 |
Kenney_ |
you think that you can cover that for $1 per issue? |
| 17:01 |
celeron55 |
well dunno, we'll have to see later |
| 17:02 |
Kenney_ |
alright well id be willing to pay that for this batch |
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| 17:26 |
hmmmm |
hey celeron, did block generation have multiple stages at some point? |
| 17:28 |
celeron55 |
what kind of stages? |
| 17:29 |
celeron55 |
do you mean whether blocks have ever been stored in a half-generated state of some kind? |
| 17:30 |
hmmmm |
yeah |
| 17:30 |
hmmmm |
I saw something like this in mapblock.h and I was wondering if you tried doing the same thing I plan on trying |
| 17:30 |
celeron55 |
i don't quite remember |
| 17:30 |
hmmmm |
not generated, stage 1 = generate caves and dungeons, stage 2 = generate land, stage 3 = generate biomes and place things dependent upon land |
| 17:31 |
hmmmm |
and each stage can only be generated if all 26 neighbors are at least at that stage |
| 17:32 |
celeron55 |
ah there's the BlockGenerationStatus |
| 17:32 |
celeron55 |
it wasn't really more than the current generated flag |
| 17:32 |
celeron55 |
or i mean, the current dummy and generated flags combined |
| 17:34 |
celeron55 |
actually wait... |
| 17:34 |
hmmmm |
dunno, if what I'm thinking of works correctly, this would fix many of the block dependency-class of bugs |
| 17:35 |
hmmmm |
i.e. vertical lighting at chunk borders, cave generation eating through trees, etc. |
| 17:36 |
hmmmm |
I just implemented a mini-minetest in Irrlicht for testing purposes |
| 17:36 |
hmmmm |
8) |
| 17:36 |
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| 17:38 |
celeron55 |
i have some very vague memories about something like this but i can't find any proof from old versions of the code or by searching for minetestmapper images |
| 17:38 |
celeron55 |
for one it seems like BlockGenerationStatus has *never* been actually used |
| 17:39 |
hmmmm |
what made you decide not to use it? |
| 17:39 |
celeron55 |
how could i know?! |
| 17:39 |
hmmmm |
did it not work very well in practice? |
| 17:39 |
celeron55 |
i guess my brain's garbage collector decided this wasn't useful information |
| 17:40 |
hmmmm |
your brain has a garbage collector, huh? |
| 17:40 |
hmmmm |
what kind? can I try frying your brain by adding circular memory references? |
| 17:40 |
celeron55 |
sometimes it seems like it has |
| 17:41 |
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| 17:42 |
celeron55 |
why did you use irrlicht for your mini-minetest |
| 17:42 |
hmmmm |
it's low friction |
| 17:43 |
hmmmm |
it already has all the v3f/v3s16/etc. definitions |
| 17:43 |
celeron55 |
you could have gotten something interesting for the graphics guys if you'd have used something else :P |
| 17:43 |
hmmmm |
you copy and paste in the code for a mapgen and it'll generate a 700x200x700 sized area instantaneously |
| 17:43 |
hmmmm |
much better than having to recompile all this crap, making a new map, and then flying around waiting for the blocks to load |
| 17:44 |
est31 |
oh |
| 17:44 |
est31 |
cool |
| 17:44 |
est31 |
where is that |
| 17:44 |
hmmmm |
on my own computer |
| 17:44 |
est31 |
not published? |
| 17:44 |
hmmmm |
absolutely not |
| 17:44 |
est31 |
:( |
| 17:44 |
hmmmm |
this is some of the hackiest code I've ever written |
| 17:45 |
hmmmm |
it's not fit for public consumption at all |
| 17:45 |
est31 |
ok |
| 17:45 |
hmmmm |
this is how I figure out appropriate parameters for mapgens and biomes and whatever :) |
| 17:45 |
hmmmm |
otherwise it'd be way too cumbersome and time consuming |
| 17:48 |
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| 17:50 |
celeron55 |
you're kind of monopolizing it by keeping it to yourself though 8) |
| 17:51 |
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| 17:55 |
jin_xi |
imho the dubious status of what 3d engine to use is a bit unhelpful. in anyway, cleaning up between mt client and 3d engine (whichever it is) would be helpful. maybe using more of irrlicht could in that sense be a solid basis for a later switch |
| 17:55 |
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| 17:56 |
jin_xi |
camera_offset for example, its there purely for irrlicht, and could maybe be solved on irrlicht side |
| 17:58 |
VanessaE |
zeno has been hacking around a bit with separating/abstracting the rendering stuff so that irrlicht could be swapped out for something else if desired |
| 18:00 |
Kenney_ |
is irrlicht still being worked on? if not, i would definately vote for switching engines |
| 18:02 |
Calinou |
barely |
| 18:02 |
Calinou |
is there anything lightweight and better? |
| 18:02 |
Calinou |
we are definitely not going for OGRE |
| 18:02 |
Calinou |
Urho3D is not packaged in distributions |
| 18:03 |
Calinou |
and no, id tech 3's not where it's at anymore :) |
| 18:03 |
Kenney_ |
Why not OGRE, just interested - only know if because a few big games used it |
| 18:03 |
Calinou |
because it's too heavy |
| 18:03 |
Calinou |
and celeron55 probably hates it |
| 18:03 |
Kenney_ |
hah alright |
| 18:03 |
Kenney_ |
good enough |
| 18:03 |
Calinou |
does it require Boost? |
| 18:03 |
Calinou |
if so, it probably won't be considered |
| 18:03 |
Calinou |
as we don't consider Boost itself |
| 18:05 |
Kenney_ |
Torque3D, is that a contender? |
| 18:06 |
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| 18:06 |
VanessaE |
why exactly is boost avoided? |
| 18:06 |
VanessaE |
HAH! speak of the devil |
| 18:06 |
Zeno` |
celeron55, what does "(Review for bounty: OK)" mean? |
| 18:07 |
Zeno` |
boost is an added dependency that's probably not needed. (not needed at all IMO) |
| 18:07 |
Calinou |
Torque3D is literally Microsoft making a game engine |
| 18:07 |
Calinou |
on top of that it's a full game engine, not just a rendering engine |
| 18:07 |
Kenney_ |
and http://gameplay3d.org/ ? |
| 18:07 |
Calinou |
same |
| 18:08 |
Kenney_ |
looks rather dated though |
| 18:08 |
Kenney_ |
ah |
| 18:08 |
Calinou |
we need something that is just a rendering engine |
| 18:08 |
Calinou |
and good ones are quite rare |
| 18:08 |
Kenney_ |
gotcha |
| 18:08 |
Zeno` |
I'm intrigued by celeron55's "review for bounty ok" comments |
| 18:08 |
Kenney_ |
Zeno, means I can put up a bounty for it ;) |
| 18:08 |
Zeno` |
you're "allowed"? |
| 18:09 |
Zeno` |
wait, you're not allowed unless c55 puts that comment? |
| 18:09 |
Kenney_ |
yeah, well, features are added to the main engine so c55 should check if its okay if it gets added |
| 18:10 |
hmmmm |
celeron55: Yeah, you're right |
| 18:10 |
Zeno` |
wow |
| 18:10 |
hmmmm |
I guess this could serve as the basis for a quick-n-dirty map generation mode triggered from a command line switch that bypasses everything except for map generation and rendering |
| 18:10 |
Zeno` |
I didn't realize celeron55 has to approve stuff |
| 18:10 |
Kenney_ |
his approval is a bit more meaningful than me, the game designer, just blabbing around about features |
| 18:11 |
Zeno` |
he hasn't contributed in years |
| 18:11 |
Kenney_ |
well its just about a technical standpoint, not if the feature gets added, but if it does, how it should be added |
| 18:11 |
Zeno` |
I don't think we need his stupid "bounty ok" comments |
| 18:11 |
hmmmm |
I would highly prefer to stay boost-free |
| 18:12 |
hmmmm |
to whoever mentioned that |
| 18:12 |
Zeno` |
If that's the way things are going the whole project is better off being forked |
| 18:12 |
* Krock |
does not like boost |
| 18:12 |
hmmmm |
boost is like a cancer. it has cross compatibility problems too |
| 18:12 |
Kenney_ |
I dont think so, it would be better if it benefits Minetest rather than forking over and abandoning the main engine |
| 18:13 |
Calinou |
is Boost well-supported on mobile platforms (ARM)? |
| 18:13 |
Calinou |
or is it x86-centric like OGRE? |
| 18:13 |
Zeno` |
Kenney_, what I am saying is that celeron55's "approval" is irrelevant, so I am not sure why he's suddenly posting these bizarre comments |
| 18:14 |
Kenney_ |
is it though? from what Im reading its actually good feedback |
| 18:14 |
Zeno` |
"bounty ok" is good feedback? |
| 18:14 |
Kenney_ |
thats not the only thing hes adding though |
| 18:14 |
Zeno` |
oh? |
| 18:15 |
Kenney_ |
check the other feature requests |
| 18:15 |
Zeno` |
yeah, they all have "bounty ok" added |
| 18:15 |
Zeno` |
which is bullshit |
| 18:15 |
Kenney_ |
http://kenneyland.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=188 |
| 18:15 |
Kenney_ |
no it is not |
| 18:15 |
Zeno` |
it is. We don't need approval from celeron55 to accept a bounty or not |
| 18:15 |
Kenney_ |
those are all the bounties I wish to put out, so celeron55 is checking them and see if they can be added or not |
| 18:16 |
Zeno` |
if it's good it's good and it will be added |
| 18:16 |
Calinou |
those bounties are pretty small |
| 18:16 |
Calinou |
I'd say $50 at least, $200 at most if you want to really give incentive :P |
| 18:16 |
Kenney_ |
yeah well, got $0 in donations so its my own money here |
| 18:16 |
Calinou |
hiring free software developers is more expensive |
| 18:16 |
Kenney_ |
after the release of Voxus on Steam it will properly be a lot higher bounties |
| 18:16 |
Zeno` |
who cares? There is no point in adding "bounty ok" to a feature request |
| 18:17 |
Zeno` |
we don't need his permission to accept or ignore a bounty |
| 18:17 |
Kenney_ |
well then, I do |
| 18:17 |
Zeno` |
strange; it's LGPL |
| 18:17 |
Kenney_ |
how does that matter? |
| 18:18 |
Zeno` |
it matters that the comments from c55 are pointless |
| 18:18 |
Kenney_ |
they arent to me, thats the point |
| 18:18 |
Kenney_ |
I put bounties out, Id like celeron55 to check if they can be done, and thus it is |
| 18:18 |
Zeno` |
if you want to pay me $1000000 to implement a feature then why do you need his permission? |
| 18:18 |
Zeno` |
but celeron55 hasn't coded for years |
| 18:18 |
Kenney_ |
rather than permission its just a quick check to see if it can be done, if you want to do the checks, go right ahead |
| 18:19 |
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| 18:19 |
Zeno` |
it's just... wrong |
| 18:19 |
Zeno` |
it's not in the spirit of LGPL or GPL or open source in general |
| 18:19 |
Kenney_ |
Im a game designer, not so much a programmer. So when I want a feature, I get it checked by a programmer to see if it can be done, then another programmer can actually pick up the job and do it |
| 18:20 |
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| 18:20 |
Zeno` |
(bounties are ok, but you don't need permission from a single person) :/ |
| 18:20 |
Kenney_ |
its still not a permission |
| 18:20 |
Zeno` |
the way he's written it it is |
| 18:20 |
Kenney_ |
as long as I understand what he means its all cool |
| 18:21 |
Kenney_ |
just ignore it |
| 18:21 |
Zeno` |
but... who cares if he understands? He's not an active contributer |
| 18:21 |
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| 18:21 |
jin_xi |
i think its more to say go ahead this will actually be merged if its done |
| 18:21 |
Kenney_ |
I do |
| 18:21 |
celeron55 |
Zeno`: you don't need my permission to make something in a fork |
| 18:22 |
jin_xi |
so noone makes a bounty, and then gets the feature coded only to be told no way thats going in |
| 18:22 |
celeron55 |
but if you want to use bounties to pay developers to do stuff in minetest, i will want to oversee that things are at least technically proper |
| 18:23 |
Zeno` |
Has this been documented? |
| 18:23 |
Zeno` |
Because it's not "normal" for open source |
| 18:23 |
kahrl |
jin_xi, will it though? |
| 18:23 |
Kenney_ |
(bt, Calinou was right though, doubled all bounties) |
| 18:24 |
Zeno` |
*most* linux developers, for example, are paid |
| 18:24 |
kahrl |
what if most devs are against it after it's coded, for whatever reasons? |
| 18:24 |
Zeno` |
they don't need Linus's permission though |
| 18:24 |
celeron55 |
oh also, i don't hate ogre; i wonder who came up with that idea |
| 18:24 |
jin_xi |
who knows... 50/50 over 3 years i'd say... |
| 18:25 |
Zeno` |
This seems like a very slippery slope and quite akin to proprietary software if you ask me |
| 18:25 |
Kenney_ |
Alright well I can take my bounties to a fork for Voxus |
| 18:25 |
Kenney_ |
thats not really what I wanted though, id wish to contribute to Minetest instead of forking off |
| 18:25 |
Zeno` |
Kenney_, I think we'd all rather the features here |
| 18:26 |
Zeno` |
What is unwanted, in my view anyway, is this silly "celeron55 approves this as a bounty" crap |
| 18:27 |
Zeno` |
If he wants that maybe he can fork minetest |
| 18:27 |
celeron55 |
Zeno`: somebody has to approve it |
| 18:27 |
Zeno` |
celeron55, you are "pre-approving" it |
| 18:27 |
Kenney_ |
Yeah so I dont mind who approves it; but it would be great if a bounty was actually put on something that has some chance of actually being merged |
| 18:27 |
Zeno` |
that's wrong |
| 18:28 |
celeron55 |
i want to make them pre-approved to get rid of implementations of ones that aren't wanted at all in the first place |
| 18:28 |
celeron55 |
the fact that the idea is okay does not mean that the end result would automatically be |
| 18:28 |
exio4 |
getting along with upstream is a nice way to improve both sides |
| 18:28 |
celeron55 |
it's just there to get rid of stupid ideas being implemented for bounties that wouldn't have been merged in any case |
| 18:31 |
Zeno` |
you could be normal and just say "good idea" |
| 18:31 |
Zeno` |
instead of "I'm ok with a bounty being offered for this" |
| 18:31 |
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| 18:32 |
celeron55 |
that is true |
| 18:33 |
celeron55 |
does anyone think of this as strongly as Zeno`? |
| 18:34 |
celeron55 |
well i guess i'll edit them and see what kind of feedback that ends up getting |
| 18:35 |
sfan5 |
<Calinou> I'd say $50 at least, $200 at most if you want to really give incentive :P |
| 18:36 |
sfan5 |
"hey look, someone if offering us money. they should be offering more" |
| 18:36 |
sfan5 |
s/if/is/ |
| 18:37 |
celeron55 |
saying anything about the amounts of money is dumb; they are more like tips than anything else anyway and are not intended to turn your hobby into work |
| 18:38 |
celeron55 |
Zeno`: what about the issue comments now? |
| 18:40 |
Zeno` |
I don't know. I will look later. I just take offence at "pre-approving" something (or basically doing that) for some reason |
| 18:41 |
Zeno` |
"OK" seems fine |
| 18:41 |
celeron55 |
Zeno`: also, please go through them and review whether i do or do not appear to be up-to-date enough on things to review these issues |
| 18:41 |
celeron55 |
if that is a concern |
| 18:42 |
Zeno` |
well, a good idea is a good idea and an opinion |
| 18:42 |
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| 18:42 |
Kenney_ |
so celeron55, where to place the bounty thread on the forums? |
| 18:42 |
Zeno` |
I don't need to review opinions, lol |
| 18:43 |
Zeno` |
I think the comments look more like the "open source way" now |
| 18:43 |
celeron55 |
Zeno`: even if i don't contribute code, i do follow both the development of the engine and the community; i'm not just coming here and pretending i know things |
| 18:43 |
Zeno` |
celeron55, I know you do |
| 18:44 |
Zeno` |
I was over the line saying that you didn't contribute |
| 18:45 |
celeron55 |
do people think Kenney_ should post to "minetest-related projects" about this, or if not, which forum section instead? |
| 18:45 |
celeron55 |
i don't think adding a section is a good idea at least |
| 18:46 |
sfan5 |
adding a new section would result in having a section with exactly 1 topic |
| 18:46 |
VanessaE |
imho, it belongs squarely in the engine development section |
| 18:46 |
neoascetic |
So, why not Bountysource, after all? |
| 18:47 |
celeron55 |
VanessaE: hmm... well all of them are about the engine at the moment, so that might work |
| 18:47 |
Kenney_ |
I dont like the pre-payment of bountysource, the 10% fee, trusting my money with bountysource etc. |
| 18:48 |
Kenney_ |
Yeah, agreed with engine dev section |
| 18:48 |
Zeno` |
Bounties are fine |
| 18:48 |
Zeno` |
engine dev section seems good |
| 18:49 |
exio4 |
10% fee? that's a bit high |
| 18:49 |
Zeno` |
Wait... you pre-pay bounties? |
| 18:49 |
Zeno` |
I'm not sure that is necessary |
| 18:50 |
Kenney_ |
Yeah well if you use BountySource you pre-pay to them, and then will transfer the money to the dev that clears the job |
| 18:50 |
Zeno` |
pay for work done, fine. I have no problem with anybody being paid... but before they do it? What if they don't deliver? |
| 18:50 |
Zeno` |
oh |
| 18:50 |
Zeno` |
hmm |
| 18:51 |
Kenney_ |
https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=12370 |
| 18:51 |
Kenney_ |
bounties are up |
| 18:51 |
Zeno` |
oh you pay the website? |
| 18:51 |
Zeno` |
maybe celeron55 can set up a similar system on the forums |
| 18:52 |
Zeno` |
e.g. you give celeron55 the money (bounty) and if/when a dev implements it he pays them (taking a cut for himself) |
| 18:52 |
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| 18:52 |
sfan5 |
that sounds like a lot of unnecessary work |
| 18:52 |
Zeno` |
maybe |
| 18:52 |
celeron55 |
well i'm in the progress of transferring the hosting of the forum and other stuff xyz is currently hosting onto a server of mine so there might be some website development ahead; but we'll see |
| 18:52 |
celeron55 |
probably not about bounties though |
| 18:53 |
Zeno` |
sfan5, it's better than Kenney_ paying a bounty to another website who takes a cut though |
| 18:53 |
Zeno` |
isn't it? |
| 18:53 |
sfan5 |
yes |
| 18:54 |
Kenney_ |
yeah but right now ill just transfer the money directly to the dev, no website inbetween |
| 18:54 |
exio4 |
what's wrong with the current approach? |
| 18:56 |
kahrl |
I'm not sure about the legal implications of running an escrow service |
| 18:56 |
neoascetic |
Why use forums for this instead of github issues? If someone want to pay bounty, he just need to note this in title/description |
| 18:56 |
kahrl |
I'd personally avoid it, but it might be fine in some countries |
| 18:56 |
neoascetic |
if feature cannot be implemented, issue just closes |
| 18:56 |
exio4 |
neoascetic: the forum links to the github issues |
| 18:57 |
exio4 |
neoascetic: the post is more for having all of them in a single place, like bookmarks :P |
| 18:57 |
neoascetic |
I know, but why use forum at all if all dev stuff is on github anyway? |
| 18:57 |
neoascetic |
ohh, maybe |
| 18:57 |
Kenney_ |
yep |
| 18:57 |
celeron55 |
it also serves as an announcement of the whole thing |
| 18:58 |
celeron55 |
and as a spot where people can give feedback to Kenney_ who people have to be able to trust because he's the one paying |
| 18:58 |
kahrl |
I think for having them all in a single place, github issue labels are best |
| 18:58 |
Kenney_ |
oh also Ive got like 100 game keys lying around for Steam, would that be of value to add to the bounties? |
| 18:58 |
neoascetic |
lol |
| 18:59 |
celeron55 |
kahrl: i guess you could make an escrow service with bitcoins; not that it would be legal, but nobody could track it :P |
| 18:59 |
kahrl |
heh, yeah |
| 19:02 |
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| 19:03 |
Kenney_ |
(added $20 to random texture bounty) |
| 19:04 |
neoascetic |
Do not expect that those will be fixed quickly. My small bounties here for moths :D |
| 19:04 |
neoascetic |
months |
| 19:05 |
Kenney_ |
oh well, its better than nothing ;) |
| 19:09 |
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| 19:12 |
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| 19:13 |
hmmmm |
#2746 is something I was going to do anyway |
| 19:13 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2746 -- Randomized textures (sprite strip) |
| 19:13 |
hmmmm |
except it'd be composition of multiple textures into one based on perlin noise |
| 19:14 |
hmmmm |
#2732 is technically challenging |
| 19:14 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2732 -- Key to toggle fullscreen |
| 19:14 |
hmmmm |
#2727 and #2728 should be trivial |
| 19:15 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2727 -- Sound pitch |
| 19:15 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2728 -- Change volume of sound on the fly |
| 19:15 |
Kenney_ |
well Id love to see the randomized textures in 1 sprite, to remove clutter from the textures folder |
| 19:17 |
hmmmm |
when you say sprite you mean a single texture for a node? |
| 19:18 |
hmmmm |
or rather, a texture for sprite-drawn nodes like grass |
| 19:18 |
Kenney_ |
single texture for a node |
| 19:19 |
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| 19:22 |
hmmmm |
textures already don't repeat |
| 19:22 |
hmmmm |
there's just one per node. this will make things more organic looking, but it won't cut down on clutter |
| 19:22 |
hmmmm |
the only thing there are variations of are the grass textures which are hard to randomly generate in a meaningful way |
| 19:23 |
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| 19:23 |
Kenney_ |
hm, not sure if you understand what I mean |
| 19:23 |
Kenney_ |
let me show |
| 19:23 |
celeron55 |
having even just 3 textures selected by 3d noise (not perlin) is actually very effective |
| 19:23 |
Kenney_ |
http://puu.sh/i7tBa/9c767654c9.png |
| 19:24 |
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| 19:24 |
Kenney_ |
this would be 1 texture for grass, and the method would select a random frame from that texture |
| 19:24 |
Kenney_ |
similar to how animations are played, just not playing an animation, but selecting a random frame |
| 19:26 |
celeron55 |
doing that is pretty much the whole basis of the visual design of this project of mine: http://www.8dromeda.net/data/soilnar-2014-02-09_14-01-40.png |
| 19:27 |
celeron55 |
(sadly i don't have a comparison screenshot) |
| 19:29 |
Kenney_ |
That looks interesting! |
| 19:33 |
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| 21:21 |
exio4 |
#2727 #2728 would be easier if done at the same time |
| 21:21 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2727 -- Sound pitch |
| 21:21 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2728 -- Change volume of sound on the fly |
| 21:26 |
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| 22:04 |
paramat |
hi sfan5 please can i push game#523 later? or otherwise your comments added to the discussion would be appreciated |
| 22:49 |
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| 23:11 |
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| 23:12 |
RealBadAngel |
i took a little break from minimapper because i noticed im able to improve something... |
| 23:12 |
RealBadAngel |
http://picpaste.com/pics/screenshot_20150601_010858-GhVYUGvS.1433113888.png |
| 23:12 |
RealBadAngel |
thats before |
| 23:12 |
RealBadAngel |
and now after: |
| 23:13 |
RealBadAngel |
http://picpaste.com/pics/screenshot_20150601_010838-LgMOiYLP.1433113998.png |
| 23:13 |
VanessaE |
looks way better. |
| 23:14 |
RealBadAngel |
i changed all the meshes into meshes with tangents |
| 23:15 |
RealBadAngel |
so, real parallax mapping is possible |
| 23:21 |
MikeFair |
parallax as in HMD integration that displays properly? |
| 23:24 |
RealBadAngel |
now it works as desired, ive eliminated all the problems using it |
| 23:29 |
MikeFair |
RealBadAngel: I like the screenshots :) |
| 23:29 |
hmmmm |
looks awesome RBA |
| 23:30 |
celeron55 |
http://c55.me/~celeron55/random/2012-06/minetest_chart.png |
| 23:30 |
celeron55 |
here's a chart. |
| 23:31 |
celeron55 |
i was browsing some old files and found this apparent design document of minetest 0.4 |
| 23:31 |
VanessaE |
haha |
| 23:32 |
paramat |
lol |
| 23:35 |
hmmmm |
heh.. |
| 23:36 |
hmmmm |
hrmm |
| 23:36 |
hmmmm |
for 2728, I suppose that Kenney is talking about modifying sounds that are currently running (looping?) |
| 23:38 |
hmmmm |
not that i'm saying i would be the one to fix these things |
