Time  Nick         Message
00:01 Wuzzy        Hi all! What do you think of this mod?: https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=12244 This looks like it could go (maybe in modified form) into builtin.
01:26 est          Now I want to test other compression methods for mapblocks, and for that I need some kind of testing playground
01:26 est          to determine whether the new method is faster or so
01:26 est          and smaller
01:26 est          now I'm wondering how to best do this
01:27 est          bc of all this emergethreading stuff
01:28 est          so I am right with my assumption hmmmm that servermap::emergeBlock() does not always return a mapblock with contents, even if it has to do mapgen first?
01:28 hmmmm        that's true
01:28 hmmmm        initially, emergeBlock() synchronously generated a block inside of the ServerThread if it didn't exist
01:28 hmmmm        I removed this because it was... destructive
01:29 hmmmm        the idea was to have an asynochronous notification when a block finished being created but I guess that never happened
01:29 est          yea that would be the right approach
01:30 est          so currently, you can only say "generate this and that for me" and it will write that into the map once finished, but no way to get notified?
01:30 hmmmm        basically, yeah
01:30 est          means more hacking around :(
01:30 hmmmm        it's a lot more work than it might sound
01:31 hmmmm        but the upshot of this is that we know there's always exactly one producer of map and exactly one consumer
01:32 est          and if ppl have multiple emergethreads?
01:32 hmmmm        well that's a special case
01:32 hmmmm        in the future i hope to make multiple emergethreads useful
01:33 hmmmm        this is a technical challenge, however, due to some logical oversights with the whole system that aren't too easy to work around
01:33 est          they don't help right now?
01:33 hmmmm        they do but not as much as they should
01:33 est          k
01:33 hmmmm        right now having multiple emergethreads is actually worse for single player
01:33 hmmmm        since they tend to hog resources off of the game thread
01:33 hmmmm        but it does produce map... REALLY fast
01:34 est          but that depends on your system's config, right?
01:34 hmmmm        not really
01:34 hmmmm        I have 8 cores and the lag is noticable with even 3 emergethreads
01:34 est          thats bad
01:35 hmmmm        you can't lower the priority for emergethreads on non-windows
01:35 hmmmm        because you'd have to change the scheduling policy
01:35 est          and that needs root?
01:35 hmmmm        yes
01:35 Wuzzy        let me just repeat what I have said ca. 1.5 hours ago
01:35 Wuzzy        Hi all! What do you think of this mod?: https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=12244 This looks like it could go (maybe in modified form) into builtin.
01:36 hmmmm        it's also possibly less efficient than the system default scheduler
01:37 est          is there another way to get this synchronously?
01:37 est          I guess voxelmanips?
01:37 hmmmm        not currently... are you trying to do something in particular?
01:38 est          only benchmarking
01:38 est          new compression vs old
01:38 hmmmm        you could just copy what happens in the emerge thread relevant for making/sending map
01:40 est          can I use MMVManip somehow?
01:41 est          I've seen the c++ side of lua's voxelmanip is a subclass of that
01:41 est          and in lua you can force mapgen an area by constructing a voxelmanip around it.
01:45 est          that should really work
01:47 est          interesting the field m_create_area inside MMVManip isn't used
01:57 est          meh, I guess I just give this up
01:57 est          I'll have to fly around a bit
04:24 est31        pushing in 10 minutes: https://github.com/est31/minetest/commit/378df62234e47bdd49e0bf0591926a4a35731b14
04:26 hmmmm        +1
04:27 hmmmm        ahh, I forgot to change all the instances of MAP_BLOCKSIZE
04:27 est31        pushing now then
04:43 paramat      will push game#520 soon
04:47 paramat      please can the HP bug be fixed soonish? it's irritating, i need to fly underwater when working on mapgen
04:48 est31        today we had the second PR that tried to fix the bug
04:52 paramat      now pushing to mtgame
04:58 paramat      complete
05:10 est31        lol multoplication
05:10 est31        nice typo
05:45 paramat      hi nore, any comments added to https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/521 will be appreciated, it took a long time to perfect, finally i'm happy with it
05:45 nore         hi paramat
05:47 nore         it looks good!
05:47 paramat      cool
05:49 paramat      i'll prepare a PR for it
08:29 neoascetic   Hi all. What I have to install on debian in order to build server only? Am I still need all these libfreetype, libxxf86vm-dev etc?
08:29 Zeno`        nope
08:30 neoascetic   Ok, what deps for servers are required? Is there some FAQ?
08:30 Zeno`        just start with irrlicht and build
08:30 neoascetic   oh, well :)
08:30 Zeno`        when you come across a dependency (because the build will fail), install it and continue :)
08:30 Zeno`        cmake will tell you what's needed
08:31 neoascetic   okay, thx
08:31 Zeno`        there should be a FAQ, but I'm not sure where it is... I just do the cmake method (it's quicker lol)
08:32 Zeno`        be aware that cmake will not fail if sqlite is missing (it will use the bundled version); it will also not fail if, say, leveldb is not installed (because that's optional)
08:32 Zeno`        so make sure you read the cmake output carefully once it passes
08:32 neoascetic   why do we have bundled sqlite?
08:32 Zeno`        maybe we don't anymore. But make sure LuaJIT is installed at least
08:33 Zeno`        over to #minetest for a sec, please?
09:03 Zeno`        Will merge #2744 in 10 minutes or so
09:04 Zeno`        we have no bot?
09:04 Zeno`        https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/2744
09:05 Krock        ShadowBot is offline, yes
09:05 Zeno`        ok
09:10 sfan5        uhh
09:10 sfan5        nvm
09:11 sfan5        Krock: your commit does more than the server does
09:11 Krock        sfan5, explain, please.
09:12 sfan5        also I'd change "cURL is required to announce the server" to "cURL is required to announce to the server list"
09:12 sfan5        Krock: your commit msg says "Throw a warning if cURL is missing when building server"
09:13 sfan5        Krock: but your commit does "Automatically enable server and curl support if client disabled" and the thing your msg actually says
09:13 Krock        ah I see
09:14 Zeno`        Well I was going to change that, but yes
09:14 Zeno`        Krock, fix it! Pronto!
09:14 sfan5        Krock: if(CURL_FOUND) else(BUILD_SERVER) endif() || it's easy to miss the BUILD_SERVER
09:14 sfan5        someone might think it says the warning when curl is not found
09:14 sfan5        hm
09:15 sfan5        actually that could make sense
09:15 sfan5        you can run a server with the client build too
09:15 Zeno`        yeah I think that's correct. Maybe a comment
09:15 Krock        cURL is helpful for clients, so no problem if you mean that
09:16 Zeno`        yeah I think it should make the warning for both
09:17 Krock        and finally we're at the sound warning if it's not enabled
09:18 Krock        no, I think it's good how it is (updated the commit)
09:18 sfan5        Krock: can you make it warn for both client and server?
09:20 Krock        "cURL is required to load the server list"?
09:21 Calinou      it is required for both
09:21 sfan5        Krock: your commit msg still doesn't describe what your commit actually does
09:22 Krock        "This commit adds some lines to cmakelists.txt in the minetest project"
09:28 Zeno`        maybe always emit the warning and change it to "cURL is required for the public server list" (or something generic like that)
09:31 Zeno`        Also the commit title "Modify CMakelists.txt" isn't all *that* bad as a title if the body of the commit has two lines explaining the 2 things it does (adds a cURL warning and sets BUILD_SERVER to true if BUILD_CLIENT is false)
10:03 celeron55    https://twitter.com/glassbottommeg/status/604407061380640768
10:07 jin_xi       it is a hard problem
10:19 celeron55    the funny thing is, most of those are probably created by the children themselves who they are trying to "protect" 8)
10:20 celeron55    or at least one funny thing
10:22 Calinou      “Funny story - we were asked to make dong detection software for LEGO Universe too. We found it to be utterly impossible at any scale.”
10:22 Calinou      this is regularly discussed in #web
12:49 kahrl        um, what does the if(CURL_FOUND) else(BUILD_SERVER) syntax actally do
12:49 kahrl        I thought you had to use the same expression (or none) in the else command as in the if command
12:50 kahrl        if you want an elseif use elseif(expression)
12:56 sfan5        kahrl: it looks like if(foo) dog elseif(bar) cat endif() is actually if(foo) dof else() if(bar) cat endif() endif()
12:56 sfan5        s/dof/dog/
12:57 kahrl        yeah, those should be equivalent
12:57 kahrl        but Krock used else() instead of elseif()
12:57 kahrl        else(expr) I mean
12:58 kahrl        it looks like the expression passed to else is ignored, if CURL_FOUND is false then the first else is always run regardless of what BUILD_SERVER is
12:59 kahrl        and the second else is never run
15:54 Kenney_      Hey guys
15:54 Kenney_      Got a question; Im going to be accepting donations for Voxus and I would like X percentage of those donations to flow back into Minetest development
15:55 Kenney_      what would be the best way? Im thinking bounties for solving/adding/fixing issues and feature requests. Let me know what you think
15:58 celeron55    not sure if this helps but there are already small bounties on two issues here: https://www.bountysource.com/teams/minetest/issues
15:59 celeron55    nobody has ever resolved any issue that has bounties on bountysource though so there's no experience of that
15:59 Kenney_      hm, right. well hopefully some better bounties could take care of that
16:00 neoascetic   I have resolved!
16:00 neoascetic   But payed back to myself through :)
16:00 celeron55    lol
16:00 Kenney_      would it be possible to add hooks to the github entry of Minetest to auto tag issues/features with bounties?
16:00 neoascetic   here this issue: https://www.bountysource.com/issues/4723941-osx-0-4-10-assertion-failed
16:01 neoascetic   I think better bountysource integration will do the trick :)
16:02 kahrl        if you pay yourself, does paypal/whatever take a cut?
16:02 neoascetic   Boutysource take 10% (or lower) fee only when you want to take money from the system.
16:02 neoascetic   You may spent it to other issues without fee
16:03 neoascetic   First, I even put into system not dollars, but bitcoins :) something about 0.004
16:04 kahrl        honestly that's quite a large cut, I'd rather circumvent that middleman
16:04 celeron55    Kenney_: it seems like bountysource provides a thing for doing that
16:04 Krock        why not dogecins?
16:04 Kenney_      yep it does, neoascetic just told me
16:04 neoascetic   you may convert them to bitcoins first :) As I did with my primecoins
16:05 neoascetic   on minetestmapper: what for freeimage branch exist?
16:06 celeron55    kahrl: i too think that 10% is rather much; but what are the alternatives?
16:06 Kenney_      alright, prepare for more requests from me - need to add them in order to add bounties
16:06 kahrl        I have no idea
16:07 Kenney_      i think im just going to create a forum post or something, that lists issues + bounty from me personally, and then see if/when they get sold and PayPal the money by hand
16:07 celeron55    you can do that; however it will only work if people trust you
16:07 Kenney_      hm, thats true
16:07 neoascetic   I think bountysource is good not for take a lot of money, but instead to make faster issue fixes in any open source project
16:07 celeron55    i guess at least some will, though, so it might work
16:07 neoascetic   you got money on one project -> you spent it to another
16:08 Kenney_      i dont like the fact that i first need to transfer the money to bountysource
16:08 Kenney_      bountysource could just go bankrupt, or what if the issue gets resolved a different way than intented?
16:08 celeron55    i guess personally i would trust a direct bounty from Kenney_
16:09 neoascetic   bountysource works for 3 years and IBM, Mozilla, Github work through it
16:09 Kenney_      righ yeah but how to add more trust to it? possibly adding company details of mine
16:09 neoascetic   It means nothing if we are in different countries
16:09 Kenney_      like my chamber of commerce registration
16:09 Kenney_      thats true though yeah
16:10 Kenney_      what forum would be best to put the bounty thread in?
16:10 celeron55    if you start with small bounties for smaller things with less risk and let people give public feedback, it might work out just fine
16:11 celeron55    however be prepared that money is a touchy subject in a hobbyist community like this
16:11 Kenney_      true, very true
16:12 Kenney_      although, there are some many benefits. It would make Voxus an awesome game, improve the Minetest engine, improve other mods and reward the developers
16:12 neoascetic   sfan5 what is freeimage branch in minetestmapper for?
16:12 sfan5        it uses freeimage instead of libgd
16:13 celeron55    hmm... there's no good place for this on the forum; i wonder how to sort that out
16:13 kahrl        mailing list?
16:13 Kenney_      possibly ´Feature Discussion´?
16:13 Kenney_      im mostly going to put bounty on features hah
16:15 neoascetic   Who trust me that I'll pay $20 for #1367 ? I have no company and live in Russia
16:16 neoascetic   Bountysource fixes that to trust/not to trust issue for us. Why don't simply use it? 10% fee is the only stopper I guess
16:16 celeron55    Kenney_: i'd say post it in "Minetest-related projects"; we'll see what kind of discussion springs up and possibly move it accordingly
16:16 Kenney_      great, will do!
16:17 neoascetic   But I even think it is for good, not for bad -> you don't want to pay that 10% fee, money still may go to (some) open-source project
16:17 Kenney_      10% fee is pretty much if you want to put up a 100 dollar bounty
16:17 neoascetic   You must do not care when money go next. It is not your headache.
16:18 Kenney_      well if the money are donations from people I do actually care where it goes to
16:20 neoascetic   yeah... nevermind. I hope no one will delete minetest team on bountysource because personally I love the way how it works and will continue post bounties through it :)
16:24 celeron55    i'm a bit worried about somebody coming up with bad solutions to the bountied issues and us being not prepared to handle those properly; how do other projects solve this? it seems to me that Kenney_ should state right from the beginning that a solution will only get the bounty if it is accepted by both Kenney_ and... well i guess myself, and i will try to consult a relevant contributor if possible
16:24 neoascetic   celeron55 may you please connect bountysource with github in a better way? https://www.bountysource.com/tools It won't cost you a thing
16:25 neoascetic   > somebody coming up with bad solutions
16:25 neoascetic   bounty should be payed out only if PR was merged
16:25 Kenney_      celeron55: hows this? http://puu.sh/i7hQJ/8481c86faf.png
16:25 neoascetic   that how it works
16:28 celeron55    neoascetic: ...it's not always that simple; but i guess we can hope it is that simple for these ones
16:30 Krock        using money as motivation? interesting system
16:33 celeron55    i think i actually need to raise yet another concern for the benefit of everyone: some bounties could be for things that me or other core developers can't agree to have in the engine either at all (unlikely) or made in a certain way (eg. implemented separately instead of within a larger, better designed system)
16:33 celeron55    and solving these requires a lot of work from everyone that should be done before even announcing the bounties
16:33 Kenney_      hm, true
16:34 neoascetic   yeah, probably
16:34 neoascetic   so, core-devs moderated list of bonties?
16:35 neoascetic   however, if issue was fixed, money will go back to they owner on bountysource
16:35 neoascetic   was fixed -> was closed
16:37 celeron55    the only solution is to require a design review for issues before a bounties are allowed; and this isn't really a thing where slacking off for months is a valid thing to do
16:38 celeron55    i guess i'm going to have to do it
16:38 Kenney_      alright, I got a list compiled of features + bounty Id like to put on it
16:43 Kenney_      celeron55 you can view them here, posted them on a dead forum of mine as a temp solution. If you think all/any features can be added for bounty ill create a thread on the minetest forums; http://kenneyland.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=188
16:43 Kenney_      total bounty amount if $190
16:46 celeron55    i feel i probably need to write a comment for most explaining a bit about how it should probably be done
16:46 Kenney_      im not too technical so yeah, thats up to you im afraid
16:48 celeron55    also if this becomes a trend, i will probably start asking a $1 per bounty review them; but i will volunteer for now
16:48 celeron55    -them
16:48 Kenney_      hah yeah totally
16:49 celeron55    anyway, i'll start going through these now; let's see how long this takes
17:00 celeron55    yeah, here's some initial taste of what kind of stuff i need to do: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2727
17:01 Kenney_      you think that you can cover that for $1 per issue?
17:01 celeron55    well dunno, we'll have to see later
17:02 Kenney_      alright well id be willing to pay that for this batch
17:26 hmmmm        hey celeron, did block generation have multiple stages at some point?
17:28 celeron55    what kind of stages?
17:29 celeron55    do you mean whether blocks have ever been stored in a half-generated state of some kind?
17:30 hmmmm        yeah
17:30 hmmmm        I saw something like this in mapblock.h and I was wondering if you tried doing the same thing I plan on trying
17:30 celeron55    i don't quite remember
17:30 hmmmm        not generated, stage 1 = generate caves and dungeons, stage 2 = generate land, stage 3 = generate biomes and place things dependent upon land
17:31 hmmmm        and each stage can only be generated if all 26 neighbors are at least at that stage
17:32 celeron55    ah there's the BlockGenerationStatus
17:32 celeron55    it wasn't really more than the current generated flag
17:32 celeron55    or i mean, the current dummy and generated flags combined
17:34 celeron55    actually wait...
17:34 hmmmm        dunno, if what I'm thinking of works correctly, this would fix many of the block dependency-class of bugs
17:35 hmmmm        i.e. vertical lighting at chunk borders, cave generation eating through trees, etc.
17:36 hmmmm        I just implemented a mini-minetest in Irrlicht for testing purposes
17:36 hmmmm        8)
17:38 celeron55    i have some very vague memories about something like this but i can't find any proof from old versions of the code or by searching for minetestmapper images
17:38 celeron55    for one it seems like BlockGenerationStatus has *never* been actually used
17:39 hmmmm        what made you decide not to use it?
17:39 celeron55    how could i know?!
17:39 hmmmm        did it not work very well in practice?
17:39 celeron55    i guess my brain's garbage collector decided this wasn't useful information
17:40 hmmmm        your brain has a garbage collector, huh?
17:40 hmmmm        what kind?  can I try frying your brain by adding circular memory references?
17:40 celeron55    sometimes it seems like it has
17:42 celeron55    why did you use irrlicht for your mini-minetest
17:42 hmmmm        it's low friction
17:43 hmmmm        it already has all the v3f/v3s16/etc. definitions
17:43 celeron55    you could have gotten something interesting for the graphics guys if you'd have used something else :P
17:43 hmmmm        you copy and paste in the code for a mapgen and it'll generate a 700x200x700 sized area instantaneously
17:43 hmmmm        much better than having to recompile all this crap, making a new map, and then flying around waiting for the blocks to load
17:44 est31        oh
17:44 est31        cool
17:44 est31        where is that
17:44 hmmmm        on my own computer
17:44 est31        not published?
17:44 hmmmm        absolutely not
17:44 est31        :(
17:44 hmmmm        this is some of the hackiest code I've ever written
17:45 hmmmm        it's not fit for public consumption at all
17:45 est31        ok
17:45 hmmmm        this is how I figure out appropriate parameters for mapgens and biomes and whatever :)
17:45 hmmmm        otherwise it'd be way too cumbersome and time consuming
17:50 celeron55    you're kind of monopolizing it by keeping it to yourself though 8)
17:55 jin_xi       imho the dubious status of what 3d engine to use is a bit unhelpful. in anyway, cleaning up between mt client and 3d engine (whichever it is) would be helpful. maybe using more of irrlicht could in that sense be a solid basis for a later switch
17:56 jin_xi       camera_offset for example, its there purely for irrlicht, and could maybe be solved on irrlicht side
17:58 VanessaE     zeno has been hacking around a bit with separating/abstracting the rendering stuff so that irrlicht could be swapped out for something else if desired
18:00 Kenney_      is irrlicht still being worked on? if not, i would definately vote for switching engines
18:02 Calinou      barely
18:02 Calinou      is there anything lightweight and better?
18:02 Calinou      we are definitely not going for OGRE
18:02 Calinou      Urho3D is not packaged in distributions
18:03 Calinou      and no, id tech 3's not where it's at anymore :)
18:03 Kenney_      Why not OGRE, just interested - only know if because a few big games used it
18:03 Calinou      because it's too heavy
18:03 Calinou      and celeron55 probably hates it
18:03 Kenney_      hah alright
18:03 Kenney_      good enough
18:03 Calinou      does it require Boost?
18:03 Calinou      if so, it probably won't be considered
18:03 Calinou      as we don't consider Boost itself
18:05 Kenney_      Torque3D, is that a contender?
18:06 VanessaE     why exactly is boost avoided?
18:06 VanessaE     HAH!  speak of the devil
18:06 Zeno`        celeron55, what does "(Review for bounty: OK)" mean?
18:07 Zeno`        boost is an added dependency that's probably not needed. (not needed at all IMO)
18:07 Calinou      Torque3D is literally Microsoft making a game engine
18:07 Calinou      on top of that it's a full game engine, not just a rendering engine
18:07 Kenney_      and http://gameplay3d.org/ ?
18:07 Calinou      same
18:08 Kenney_      looks rather dated though
18:08 Kenney_      ah
18:08 Calinou      we need something that is just a rendering engine
18:08 Calinou      and good ones are quite rare
18:08 Kenney_      gotcha
18:08 Zeno`        I'm intrigued by celeron55's "review for bounty ok" comments
18:08 Kenney_      Zeno, means I can put up a bounty for it ;)
18:08 Zeno`        you're "allowed"?
18:09 Zeno`        wait, you're not allowed unless c55 puts that comment?
18:09 Kenney_      yeah, well, features are added to the main engine so c55 should check if its okay if it gets added
18:10 hmmmm        celeron55:  Yeah, you're right
18:10 Zeno`        wow
18:10 hmmmm        I guess this could serve as the basis for a quick-n-dirty map generation mode triggered from a command line switch that bypasses everything except for map generation and rendering
18:10 Zeno`        I didn't realize celeron55 has to approve stuff
18:10 Kenney_      his approval is a bit more meaningful than me, the game designer, just blabbing around about features
18:11 Zeno`        he hasn't contributed in years
18:11 Kenney_      well its just about a technical standpoint, not if the feature gets added, but if it does, how it should be added
18:11 Zeno`        I don't think we need his stupid "bounty ok" comments
18:11 hmmmm        I would highly prefer to stay boost-free
18:12 hmmmm        to whoever mentioned that
18:12 Zeno`        If that's the way things are going the whole project is better off being forked
18:12 * Krock      does not like boost
18:12 hmmmm        boost is like a cancer.  it has cross compatibility problems too
18:12 Kenney_      I dont think so, it would be better if it benefits Minetest rather than forking over and abandoning the main engine
18:13 Calinou      is Boost well-supported on mobile platforms (ARM)?
18:13 Calinou      or is it x86-centric like OGRE?
18:13 Zeno`        Kenney_, what I am saying is that celeron55's "approval" is irrelevant, so I am not sure why he's suddenly posting these bizarre comments
18:14 Kenney_      is it though? from what Im reading its actually good feedback
18:14 Zeno`        "bounty ok" is good feedback?
18:14 Kenney_      thats not the only thing hes adding though
18:14 Zeno`        oh?
18:15 Kenney_      check the other feature requests
18:15 Zeno`        yeah, they all have "bounty ok" added
18:15 Zeno`        which is bullshit
18:15 Kenney_      http://kenneyland.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=188
18:15 Kenney_      no it is not
18:15 Zeno`        it is. We don't need approval from celeron55 to accept a bounty or not
18:15 Kenney_      those are all the bounties I wish to put out, so celeron55 is checking them and see if they can be added or not
18:16 Zeno`        if it's good it's good and it will be added
18:16 Calinou      those bounties are pretty small
18:16 Calinou      I'd say $50 at least, $200 at most if you want to really give incentive :P
18:16 Kenney_      yeah well, got $0 in donations so its my own money here
18:16 Calinou      hiring free software developers is more expensive
18:16 Kenney_      after the release of Voxus on Steam it will properly be a lot higher bounties
18:16 Zeno`        who cares? There is no point in adding "bounty ok" to a feature request
18:17 Zeno`        we don't need his permission to accept or ignore a bounty
18:17 Kenney_      well then, I do
18:17 Zeno`        strange; it's LGPL
18:17 Kenney_      how does that matter?
18:18 Zeno`        it matters that the comments from c55 are pointless
18:18 Kenney_      they arent to me, thats the point
18:18 Kenney_      I put bounties out, Id like celeron55 to check if they can be done, and thus it is
18:18 Zeno`        if you want to pay me $1000000 to implement a feature then why do you need his permission?
18:18 Zeno`        but celeron55 hasn't coded for years
18:18 Kenney_      rather than permission its just a quick check to see if it can be done, if you want to do the checks, go right ahead
18:19 Zeno`        it's just... wrong
18:19 Zeno`        it's not in the spirit of LGPL or GPL or open source in general
18:19 Kenney_      Im a game designer, not so much a programmer. So when I want a feature, I get it checked by a programmer to see if it can be done, then another programmer can actually pick up the job and do it
18:20 Zeno`        (bounties are ok, but you don't need permission from a single person) :/
18:20 Kenney_      its still not a permission
18:20 Zeno`        the way he's written it it is
18:20 Kenney_      as long as I understand what he means its all cool
18:21 Kenney_      just ignore it
18:21 Zeno`        but... who cares if he understands? He's not an active contributer
18:21 jin_xi       i think its more to say go ahead this will actually be merged if its done
18:21 Kenney_      I do
18:21 celeron55    Zeno`: you don't need my permission to make something in a fork
18:22 jin_xi       so noone makes a bounty, and then gets the feature coded only to be told no way thats going in
18:22 celeron55    but if you want to use bounties to pay developers to do stuff in minetest, i will want to oversee that things are at least technically proper
18:23 Zeno`        Has this been documented?
18:23 Zeno`        Because it's not "normal" for open source
18:23 kahrl        jin_xi, will it though?
18:23 Kenney_      (bt, Calinou was right though, doubled all bounties)
18:24 Zeno`        *most* linux developers, for example, are paid
18:24 kahrl        what if most devs are against it after it's coded, for whatever reasons?
18:24 Zeno`        they don't need Linus's permission though
18:24 celeron55    oh also, i don't hate ogre; i wonder who came up with that idea
18:24 jin_xi       who knows... 50/50 over 3 years i'd say...
18:25 Zeno`        This seems like a very slippery slope and quite akin to proprietary software if you ask me
18:25 Kenney_      Alright well I can take my bounties to a fork for Voxus
18:25 Kenney_      thats not really what I wanted though, id wish to contribute to Minetest instead of forking off
18:25 Zeno`        Kenney_, I think we'd all rather the features here
18:26 Zeno`        What is unwanted, in my view anyway, is this silly "celeron55 approves this as a bounty" crap
18:27 Zeno`        If he wants that maybe he can fork minetest
18:27 celeron55    Zeno`: somebody has to approve it
18:27 Zeno`        celeron55, you are "pre-approving" it
18:27 Kenney_      Yeah so I dont mind who approves it; but it would be great if a bounty was actually put on something that has some chance of actually being merged
18:27 Zeno`        that's wrong
18:28 celeron55    i want to make them pre-approved to get rid of implementations of ones that aren't wanted at all in the first place
18:28 celeron55    the fact that the idea is okay does not mean that the end result would automatically be
18:28 exio4        getting along with upstream is a nice way to improve both sides
18:28 celeron55    it's just there to get rid of stupid ideas being implemented for bounties that wouldn't have been merged in any case
18:31 Zeno`        you could be normal and just say "good idea"
18:31 Zeno`        instead of "I'm ok with a bounty being offered for this"
18:32 celeron55    that is true
18:33 celeron55    does anyone think of this as strongly as Zeno`?
18:34 celeron55    well i guess i'll edit them and see what kind of feedback that ends up getting
18:35 sfan5        <Calinou> I'd say $50 at least, $200 at most if you want to really give incentive :P
18:36 sfan5        "hey look, someone if offering us money. they should be offering more"
18:36 sfan5        s/if/is/
18:37 celeron55    saying anything about the amounts of money is dumb; they are more like tips than anything else anyway and are not intended to turn your hobby into work
18:38 celeron55    Zeno`: what about the issue comments now?
18:40 Zeno`        I don't know. I will look later. I just take offence at "pre-approving" something (or basically doing that) for some reason
18:41 Zeno`        "OK" seems fine
18:41 celeron55    Zeno`: also, please go through them and review whether i do or do not appear to be up-to-date enough on things to review these issues
18:41 celeron55    if that is a concern
18:42 Zeno`        well, a good idea is a good idea and an opinion
18:42 Kenney_      so celeron55, where to place the bounty thread on the forums?
18:42 Zeno`        I don't need to review opinions, lol
18:43 Zeno`        I think the comments look more like the "open source way" now
18:43 celeron55    Zeno`: even if i don't contribute code, i do follow both the development of the engine and the community; i'm not just coming here and pretending i know things
18:43 Zeno`        celeron55, I know you do
18:44 Zeno`        I was over the line saying that you didn't contribute
18:45 celeron55    do people think Kenney_ should post to "minetest-related projects" about this, or if not, which forum section instead?
18:45 celeron55    i don't think adding a section is a good idea at least
18:46 sfan5        adding a new section would result in having a section with exactly 1 topic
18:46 VanessaE     imho, it belongs squarely in the engine development section
18:46 neoascetic   So, why not Bountysource, after all?
18:47 celeron55    VanessaE: hmm... well all of them are about the engine at the moment, so that might work
18:47 Kenney_      I dont like the pre-payment of bountysource, the 10% fee, trusting my money with bountysource etc.
18:48 Kenney_      Yeah, agreed with engine dev section
18:48 Zeno`        Bounties are fine
18:48 Zeno`        engine dev section seems good
18:49 exio4        10% fee? that's a bit high
18:49 Zeno`        Wait... you pre-pay bounties?
18:49 Zeno`        I'm not sure that is necessary
18:50 Kenney_      Yeah well if you use BountySource you pre-pay to them, and then will transfer the money to the dev that clears the job
18:50 Zeno`        pay for work done, fine. I have no problem with anybody being paid... but before they do it? What if they don't deliver?
18:50 Zeno`        oh
18:50 Zeno`        hmm
18:51 Kenney_      https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=12370
18:51 Kenney_      bounties are up
18:51 Zeno`        oh you pay the website?
18:51 Zeno`        maybe celeron55 can set up a similar system on the forums
18:52 Zeno`        e.g. you give celeron55 the money (bounty) and if/when a dev implements it he pays them (taking a cut for himself)
18:52 sfan5        that sounds like a lot of unnecessary work
18:52 Zeno`        maybe
18:52 celeron55    well i'm in the progress of transferring the hosting of the forum and other stuff xyz is currently hosting onto a server of mine so there might be some website development ahead; but we'll see
18:52 celeron55    probably not about bounties though
18:53 Zeno`        sfan5, it's better than Kenney_ paying a bounty to another website who takes a cut though
18:53 Zeno`        isn't it?
18:53 sfan5        yes
18:54 Kenney_      yeah but right now ill just transfer the money directly to the dev, no website inbetween
18:54 exio4        what's wrong with the current approach?
18:56 kahrl        I'm not sure about the legal implications of running an escrow service
18:56 neoascetic   Why use forums for this instead of github issues? If someone want to pay bounty, he just need to note this in title/description
18:56 kahrl        I'd personally avoid it, but it might be fine in some countries
18:56 neoascetic   if feature cannot be implemented, issue just closes
18:56 exio4        neoascetic: the forum links to the github issues
18:57 exio4        neoascetic: the post is more for having all of them in a single place, like bookmarks :P
18:57 neoascetic   I know, but why use forum at all if all dev stuff is on github anyway?
18:57 neoascetic   ohh, maybe
18:57 Kenney_      yep
18:57 celeron55    it also serves as an announcement of the whole thing
18:58 celeron55    and as a spot where people can give feedback to Kenney_ who people have to be able to trust because he's the one paying
18:58 kahrl        I think for having them all in a single place, github issue labels are best
18:58 Kenney_      oh also Ive got like 100 game keys lying around for Steam, would that be of value to add to the bounties?
18:58 neoascetic   lol
18:59 celeron55    kahrl: i guess you could make an escrow service with bitcoins; not that it would be legal, but nobody could track it :P
18:59 kahrl        heh, yeah
19:03 Kenney_      (added $20 to random texture bounty)
19:04 neoascetic   Do not expect that those will be fixed quickly. My small bounties here for moths :D
19:04 neoascetic   months
19:05 Kenney_      oh well, its better than nothing ;)
19:13 hmmmm        #2746 is something I was going to do anyway
19:13 ShadowBot    https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2746 -- Randomized textures (sprite strip)
19:13 hmmmm        except it'd be composition of multiple textures into one based on perlin noise
19:14 hmmmm        #2732 is technically challenging
19:14 ShadowBot    https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2732 -- Key to toggle fullscreen
19:14 hmmmm        #2727 and #2728 should be trivial
19:15 ShadowBot    https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2727 -- Sound pitch
19:15 ShadowBot    https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2728 -- Change volume of sound on the fly
19:15 Kenney_      well Id love to see the randomized textures in 1 sprite, to remove clutter from the textures folder
19:17 hmmmm        when you say sprite you mean a single texture for a node?
19:18 hmmmm        or rather, a texture for sprite-drawn nodes like grass
19:18 Kenney_      single texture for a node
19:22 hmmmm        textures already don't repeat
19:22 hmmmm        there's just one per node.  this will make things more organic looking, but it won't cut down on clutter
19:22 hmmmm        the only thing there are variations of are the grass textures which are hard to randomly generate in a meaningful way
19:23 Kenney_      hm, not sure if you understand what I mean
19:23 Kenney_      let me show
19:23 celeron55    having even just 3 textures selected by 3d noise (not perlin) is actually very effective
19:23 Kenney_      http://puu.sh/i7tBa/9c767654c9.png
19:24 Kenney_      this would be 1 texture for grass, and the method would select a random frame from that texture
19:24 Kenney_      similar to how animations are played, just not playing an animation, but selecting a random frame
19:26 celeron55    doing that is pretty much the whole basis of the visual design of this project of mine: http://www.8dromeda.net/data/soilnar-2014-02-09_14-01-40.png
19:27 celeron55    (sadly i don't have a comparison screenshot)
19:29 Kenney_      That looks interesting!
21:21 exio4        #2727 #2728 would be easier if done at the same time
21:21 ShadowBot    https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2727 -- Sound pitch
21:21 ShadowBot    https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2728 -- Change volume of sound on the fly
22:04 paramat      hi sfan5 please can i push game#523 later? or otherwise your comments added to the discussion would be appreciated
23:12 RealBadAngel i took a little break from minimapper because i noticed im able to improve something...
23:12 RealBadAngel http://picpaste.com/pics/screenshot_20150601_010858-GhVYUGvS.1433113888.png
23:12 RealBadAngel thats before
23:12 RealBadAngel and now after:
23:13 RealBadAngel http://picpaste.com/pics/screenshot_20150601_010838-LgMOiYLP.1433113998.png
23:13 VanessaE     looks way better.
23:14 RealBadAngel i changed all the meshes into meshes with tangents
23:15 RealBadAngel so, real parallax mapping is possible
23:21 MikeFair     parallax as in HMD integration that displays properly?
23:24 RealBadAngel now it works as desired, ive eliminated all the problems using it
23:29 MikeFair     RealBadAngel: I like the screenshots :)
23:29 hmmmm        looks awesome RBA
23:30 celeron55    http://c55.me/~celeron55/random/2012-06/minetest_chart.png
23:30 celeron55    here's a chart.
23:31 celeron55    i was browsing some old files and found this apparent design document of minetest 0.4
23:31 VanessaE     haha
23:32 paramat      lol
23:35 hmmmm        heh..
23:36 hmmmm        hrmm
23:36 hmmmm        for 2728, I suppose that Kenney is talking about modifying sounds that are currently running (looping?)
23:38 hmmmm        not that i'm saying i would be the one to fix these things