| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 00:01 |
|
Wayward_One joined #minetest-dev |
| 00:03 |
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diemartin joined #minetest-dev |
| 00:07 |
gregorycu |
How does one view fps? |
| 00:07 |
jin_xi |
F5 |
| 00:09 |
gregorycu |
I'm looking at ClientMap::render |
| 00:09 |
gregorycu |
More than half of its time is spent in ShaderCallback::OnSetConstants |
| 00:09 |
gregorycu |
aka. Half the time it's not even rendering |
| 00:10 |
gregorycu |
Isn't this horrible? |
| 00:14 |
RealBadAngel |
yes it is |
| 00:15 |
RealBadAngel |
but with the current model of how the things goes its necesary |
| 00:15 |
gregorycu |
hmmm... |
| 00:15 |
RealBadAngel |
thats the main point of moving settings into a class and read its members instead of fiddlling with strings |
| 00:16 |
|
luizrpgluiz1 joined #minetest-dev |
| 00:16 |
gregorycu |
Is that a project which is happening? |
| 00:16 |
gregorycu |
Is someone making that change? |
| 00:16 |
RealBadAngel |
yes |
| 00:16 |
RealBadAngel |
Zeno started to code that |
| 00:17 |
luizrpgluiz1 |
hi devs and guys :) |
| 00:17 |
gregorycu |
Can someone tell that dude to hurry the fuck up |
| 00:17 |
gregorycu |
Where is he anyway? |
| 00:17 |
RealBadAngel |
on the other side of the globe, playing (sleeping?) with kangaroos ;) |
| 00:18 |
gregorycu |
I'm on the same side of the globe :P |
| 00:18 |
gregorycu |
And I play with the same animals |
| 00:18 |
RealBadAngel |
youre playing with kangaroos too? ;) |
| 00:19 |
RealBadAngel |
greetings from poland anyway ;) |
| 00:19 |
gregorycu |
Yeah, they are awesome |
| 00:19 |
RealBadAngel |
but seriously, that change is rather big |
| 00:20 |
RealBadAngel |
and definitely wont come in xmas release |
| 00:20 |
gregorycu |
That's fine |
| 00:20 |
gregorycu |
I'm looking at low hanging fruit to optimise, that is some of it |
| 00:20 |
gregorycu |
What can also be done is a cache for bool values |
| 00:20 |
gregorycu |
So the conversion happens on save |
| 00:20 |
gregorycu |
As opposed to every read |
| 00:21 |
RealBadAngel |
there are many spots to make things faster |
| 00:21 |
RealBadAngel |
just pick your fav one |
| 00:21 |
gregorycu |
Yeah, like the MeshUpdateThread |
| 00:21 |
gregorycu |
Not sure what it does, but it does a lot |
| 00:21 |
luizrpgluiz1 |
what improvements will put the new version of minetest? |
| 00:21 |
RealBadAngel |
it is overloaded atm |
| 00:22 |
RealBadAngel |
im working on the code that will require less mesh updates |
| 00:22 |
VanessaE |
luizrpgluiz1: http://dev.minetest.net/Changelog#0.4.10_.E2.86.92_.3F |
| 00:22 |
|
n4x joined #minetest-dev |
| 00:23 |
RealBadAngel |
luizrpgluiz1, theres a thread in forums for that |
| 00:23 |
RealBadAngel |
for example meshnodes |
| 00:24 |
RealBadAngel |
https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=10701 |
| 00:24 |
VanessaE |
what, no link to my test mod? :P |
| 00:25 |
VanessaE |
https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=10428 |
| 00:25 |
RealBadAngel |
https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=10621 |
| 00:25 |
VanessaE |
homedecor uses some mesh nodes also now (mostly starting from that primitives example) |
| 00:25 |
RealBadAngel |
VanessaE, i was lookin for links :P just wanted xmas themed in the first place :) |
| 00:26 |
RealBadAngel |
btw, can you turn that snowman into a mod? |
| 00:29 |
VanessaE |
a snowman? well, easily done of course.. |
| 00:29 |
VanessaE |
but not really interested in that honestly |
| 00:29 |
VanessaE |
(plus such is not slated for inclusion in minetest) |
| 00:30 |
|
nore joined #minetest-dev |
| 00:35 |
RealBadAngel |
VanessaE, hmmmm was asking for a model |
| 00:35 |
RealBadAngel |
i found one ccbysa 3.0 |
| 00:36 |
RealBadAngel |
http://www.blendswap.com/blends/view/71110 |
| 00:36 |
VanessaE |
yeah, I saw that before |
| 00:37 |
VanessaE |
Dec 10 03:01:28 <hmmmm> er rather two nodes, a snowman head and a snowman body |
| 00:37 |
VanessaE |
Dec 10 03:01:34 <hmmmm> not meshes, just nodes |
| 00:37 |
RealBadAngel |
it could be propably split |
| 00:38 |
RealBadAngel |
idk blender but it is supposed to do much neater tricks than that |
| 00:38 |
VanessaE |
http://irc.minetest.ru/minetest-dev/2014-12-10#i_4056170 |
| 00:38 |
VanessaE |
seems like he wants a nodebox-based, one-node-high snowman |
| 00:39 |
RealBadAngel |
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzm8kTIj_0M |
| 00:39 |
RealBadAngel |
theres no "nodebox" :) |
| 00:39 |
VanessaE |
heh |
| 00:40 |
jin_xi |
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ib2Vl7JEjfc |
| 00:41 |
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CraigyDavi joined #minetest-dev |
| 00:42 |
RealBadAngel |
jin_xi, lol |
| 00:43 |
|
Selah joined #minetest-dev |
| 00:48 |
gregorycu |
Hooray |
| 00:48 |
gregorycu |
5% speed improvement |
| 00:51 |
luizrpgluiz1 |
celeron55: hi Celeron :D |
| 01:03 |
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paramat left #minetest-dev |
| 01:05 |
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luizrpgluiz1 left #minetest-dev |
| 01:19 |
RealBadAngel |
gregorycu, at what? |
| 01:19 |
gregorycu |
Overall, but specifically it's a 10% speed improvement to the MeshUpdateThread |
| 01:20 |
RealBadAngel |
can i see the changes? |
| 01:20 |
gregorycu |
It's a simple change |
| 01:21 |
gregorycu |
I've replaced VoxelArea::getExtent() == v3s16(0,0,0) with a new function VoxelArea::hasEmptyExtent() |
| 01:22 |
gregorycu |
(I would have thought the compiler would have optimised the former to be equiv to the latter, but it did not) |
| 01:22 |
RealBadAngel |
simple is a piece of wire, idea behind a piece of code is much more complicated |
| 01:24 |
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AnotherBrick joined #minetest-dev |
| 01:27 |
gregorycu |
You are a wise sage |
| 01:36 |
RealBadAngel |
gregorycu, make a PR with that code so we can check it |
| 01:39 |
|
AnotherBrick joined #minetest-dev |
| 01:43 |
gregorycu |
Will do |
| 01:48 |
|
proller joined #minetest-dev |
| 01:51 |
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Zeno` joined #minetest-dev |
| 01:51 |
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nore joined #minetest-dev |
| 01:56 |
gregorycu |
Zeno |
| 02:02 |
Zeno` |
Can #1991 be merged please? |
| 02:02 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1991 -- Fix visual_scale for plantlike nodes by VanessaE |
| 02:03 |
Zeno` |
hi gregorycu |
| 02:04 |
gregorycu |
I heard you're going to fix settings |
| 02:04 |
Zeno` |
me? |
| 02:04 |
gregorycu |
Yeah |
| 02:04 |
gregorycu |
Singlehandedly |
| 02:10 |
Zeno` |
#1991 is so obviously correct I'll merge it 30 minutes or so unless someone objects |
| 02:10 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1991 -- Fix visual_scale for plantlike nodes by VanessaE |
| 02:14 |
RealBadAngel |
Zeno`, main problem was the "if" that was applying the move of the roots only for scale <1.0 |
| 02:14 |
Zeno` |
RealBadAngel, correct |
| 02:15 |
RealBadAngel |
but jungle grass is bigger for example |
| 02:15 |
Zeno` |
Which is why my bad is obvious :) |
| 02:15 |
Zeno` |
Also I did a second thing wrong. I was using HDX and for some reason it was working in that :/ |
| 02:15 |
RealBadAngel |
about the rest, thats my fault, i tried to fix the bug. but others just get used to faulty behaviour |
| 02:16 |
jin_xi |
but why flip the signs? just get rid of the if |
| 02:16 |
|
paramat joined #minetest-dev |
| 02:17 |
paramat |
hmmmm nore https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/pull/380 |
| 02:21 |
VanessaE |
for reference: HDX worked for Zeno` only because his imagery was outdated (there was extra empty space/padding at the bottoms of some images to account for the old vertical offset problem that RBA originally fixed) |
| 02:21 |
Zeno` |
it was a trick! Obviously cunningly designed to lure me into a trap |
| 02:22 |
gregorycu |
Can you only do one pull request at a time? |
| 02:22 |
VanessaE |
haha |
| 02:22 |
VanessaE |
gregorycu: no |
| 02:22 |
VanessaE |
as long as you use a separate branch for each feature you're coding, you can have more than one pull |
| 02:22 |
gregorycu |
Oh, I don't have that |
| 02:23 |
gregorycu |
So one PR per branch then |
| 02:23 |
Zeno` |
merging |
| 02:24 |
gregorycu |
My changes? Hooray! |
| 02:25 |
paramat |
as far as i know if those temporary biomes get merged i will have to tell those using the biome api to use 'clear registered biomes' and 'register biome' within 'register on mapgen init' |
| 02:26 |
kaeza |
gregorycu, even if you are working in a single feature, it is better to use a separate branch, and leave the "master" branch as a "clean" copy of Minetest |
| 02:26 |
gregorycu |
Isn't the minetest/minetest branch a clean copy? |
| 02:26 |
hmmmm |
this is disasterous |
| 02:28 |
hmmmm |
i wonder how it would work out if I created the ServerEnvironment before scripts initialize, and then start processing environment steps only after they finish |
| 02:33 |
paramat |
its a bit messy having to do everything in 'on mapgen init' so i really don't mind if thoe simple biomes don't go in, to give us more time to work on a solution |
| 02:36 |
hmmmm |
you don't need to register biomes in on_mapgen_init though |
| 02:36 |
hmmmm |
there's absolutely no harm in having biomes registered if the mapgen used is v6 |
| 02:36 |
hmmmm |
it would be preferable if you could register biomes outside of on_mapgen_init |
| 02:37 |
gregorycu |
Are biomes a new feature? |
| 02:39 |
paramat |
yes i agree, i did this because registered decos grief mgv6 |
| 02:39 |
paramat |
perhaps place decos should be removed from mgv6 |
| 02:39 |
Tesseract |
gregorycu: Yes, fairly new. Not yet considered a public API. |
| 02:40 |
Tesseract |
paramat: Nah, decos can be usefull in v6 too. You can still register mapgen-specific decos too. |
| 02:41 |
paramat |
yes, but it would solve one of these problems |
| 02:41 |
paramat |
this indeed needs rethinking |
| 02:45 |
paramat |
if place decos is in v6 we need to disable v5/v7 deco registration, to do that mapgen must be detected and this has to be done n 'on mapgen init' |
| 02:45 |
paramat |
*in |
| 02:47 |
paramat |
wotamess |
| 02:48 |
paramat |
mapgen will need to be detected in 'on mapgen init' to enable/disable mgv6's on-gen function, to avoid that griefing mgv5/v7 |
| 02:53 |
paramat |
i'll withdraw my pull request then for now |
| 02:53 |
hmmmm |
? |
| 02:54 |
hmmmm |
you don't need to register decorations if mapgen v6 is used |
| 02:54 |
hmmmm |
just the biomes |
| 02:54 |
gregorycu |
Who knows a lot of stuff about the MeshUpdateThread ? |
| 02:59 |
paramat |
how do i register mapgen-specific decos? didn't know about this |
| 03:00 |
hmmmm |
register the biomes in the main init, decos in on_mapgen_init |
| 03:04 |
paramat |
yes |
| 03:05 |
hmmmm |
i'm gonna try to see if i can move environment init before scripts start to run |
| 03:05 |
hmmmm |
this has a lot of indirect consequences, though |
| 03:05 |
paramat |
but then it seems players will have to clear registered decorations in 'on mapgen init' |
| 03:06 |
hmmmm |
if i can remove on mapgen init completely, that would be excellent |
| 03:07 |
paramat |
a while ago i tested 'clear biomes' and discovered it had to be done within 'on mapgen init' to have any effect |
| 03:07 |
hmmmm |
not so |
| 03:08 |
paramat |
.. if biomes were registered within 'on mapgen init' |
| 03:08 |
hmmmm |
any biomes that were registered before it are cleared except for the internal builtin all stone biome |
| 03:08 |
paramat |
i may have misremembered |
| 03:08 |
paramat |
need to test again |
| 03:09 |
hmmmm |
i need to ask celeron if there is any actual reason why scripts run before environment init |
| 03:09 |
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MinerDad joined #minetest-dev |
| 03:10 |
hmmmm |
but this is stuff that needs to wait until after release |
| 03:10 |
paramat |
yes, since we're so close to release perhaps we go with hmmmmm's default biome in builtin |
| 03:10 |
hmmmm |
i don't *like* it, but it'll have to do |
| 03:10 |
hmmmm |
so listen |
| 03:11 |
hmmmm |
with clear biome and register biome you're able to add biome groups |
| 03:11 |
hmmmm |
each mod can add its own set of biomes |
| 03:12 |
hmmmm |
selecting a biome set makes the builtin functions do a raw biome clear and a raw biome add of all the biomes registered to that group |
| 03:12 |
paramat |
okay |
| 03:13 |
hmmmm |
the idea is to do as much of the work as possible in the lua |
| 03:13 |
hmmmm |
features like these are higher level and certainly don't need to be part of the core |
| 03:13 |
hmmmm |
the core is overbloated the way it is |
| 03:14 |
paramat |
this could be solved short term by removing 'place decos' from mgv6? |
| 03:15 |
hmmmm |
it's getting too close for comfort |
| 03:15 |
hmmmm |
we should probably let it go until after release |
| 03:16 |
paramat |
yes certainly, by short term i meant after release |
| 03:16 |
paramat |
i need to test and play with all this more, and edit my biome branch |
| 03:18 |
paramat |
sorry i should have discussed all this a while ago :) i'll close my MTgame pull |
| 03:20 |
paramat |
i still have lots of testing to do on new noise stuff for release so will focus on that |
| 03:33 |
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| 03:44 |
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| 03:46 |
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| 04:28 |
hmmmm |
not sure why it took me so long to realize it but our noise frankly sucks |
| 04:28 |
hmmmm |
it's low-quality |
| 04:29 |
hmmmm |
it has sort of a roundish-cube look |
| 04:29 |
hmmmm |
especially the 3d noise |
| 04:30 |
Zeno` |
pics? |
| 04:30 |
hmmmm |
see any mapgen output ever |
| 04:30 |
hmmmm |
this is one of the reasons why I want to add simplex noise as an option |
| 04:43 |
kahrl |
let's rename minetest to roundcube! oh wait... :P |
| 04:44 |
kaeza |
kahrl, https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1959#issuecomment-67597942 |
| 04:45 |
kahrl |
kaeza: hrm |
| 04:46 |
kahrl |
since I don't have windows: any idea in what function it locks up? |
| 04:46 |
gregorycu |
Thank you, I'll take a look right now |
| 04:46 |
VanessaE |
kahrl: got a moment? |
| 04:46 |
kahrl |
not really |
| 04:46 |
VanessaE |
mmh |
| 04:46 |
kahrl |
need to finish some stuff for uni |
| 04:47 |
VanessaE |
well I just wanted to point out while you're here.... regarding https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/17dde5ddd0387c66aefc77e210c676e39c3b653c |
| 04:47 |
kahrl |
glad it's the last day of uni for a while ;) |
| 04:47 |
VanessaE |
there's an XCF for that, http://digitalaudioconcepts.com/vanessa/hobbies/minetest/images/infinite16.xcf |
| 04:48 |
kahrl |
oh... does it produce different results? |
| 04:48 |
VanessaE |
kilbith mentioned that the image you ended up with has bad contrast compared to my original file |
| 04:48 |
VanessaE |
he seems to think so but I haven't had time to verify. |
| 04:49 |
kahrl |
well of course it looks like that with the white github background |
| 04:49 |
kahrl |
but it looks fine to me in the main menu |
| 04:50 |
VanessaE |
oh, nope he's right |
| 04:51 |
VanessaE |
hm, in practice it'll look the same though against a black background |
| 04:51 |
VanessaE |
well almost the same, the difference is subble |
| 04:51 |
VanessaE |
subtle* |
| 04:52 |
VanessaE |
http://digitalaudioconcepts.com/vanessa/hobbies/minetest/screenshots/Screenshot%20-%2012182014%20-%2011%3a52%3a40%20PM.png |
| 04:53 |
VanessaE |
(left is yours, both loaded from their original files into GIMP and then flattened against black) |
| 04:53 |
gregorycu |
kaeza: I am still not able to repo |
| 04:54 |
gregorycu |
I'm using 4.11 rc1 |
| 04:55 |
VanessaE |
kahrl: I'd much appreciate it if you'd use my original file ;) also there's a 64px version for high-DPI screens if you're interested. |
| 04:56 |
kahrl |
VanessaE: I'll change it this weekend |
| 04:56 |
VanessaE |
ok. |
| 04:56 |
kahrl |
keep the .xcf around in case we need it again at some point |
| 04:56 |
VanessaE |
sure |
| 04:56 |
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| 05:00 |
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| 05:04 |
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| 05:16 |
gregorycu |
I have this situation where terrain fades into view, the disappears, then fades into view again |
| 05:16 |
gregorycu |
The same terrain, and I'm not moving |
| 05:17 |
VanessaE |
view range auto tuner. |
| 05:17 |
VanessaE |
yeah, does that to me too, sometimes |
| 05:18 |
gregorycu |
This happens endlessly |
| 05:18 |
gregorycu |
Why does it happen? |
| 05:20 |
VanessaE |
no idea |
| 05:20 |
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| 05:26 |
kaeza |
okay... gregorycu, kahrl, the issue seems to be somewhere in async event handling |
| 05:26 |
kaeza |
I have no idea how to debug this further |
| 05:27 |
gregorycu |
When you freeze, what does the console window say as the last line? |
| 05:29 |
kaeza |
currently, I modified builtin/mainmenu/common.lua, around line 183 (anon functions in handle_async call), and the second function is never called |
| 05:29 |
kaeza |
(the function that should handle the result of the async call) |
| 05:30 |
kaeza |
I also noticed that those async functions are being called twice in succession. not sure if that is intended |
| 05:33 |
gregorycu |
hmm |
| 05:35 |
gregorycu |
Well, I chucked some dodgy Lua in that file, and indeed, I crashed |
| 05:35 |
kaeza |
from a quick look, looks like whoever coded that ignored the first rule in menu_lua_api.txt and is using globals from inside the functions |
| 05:36 |
kaeza |
maybe kahr-l's patch just introduced some timing differences that makes it fail now |
| 05:37 |
kaeza |
(I'm assuming some sort of race condition or something) |
| 05:38 |
gregorycu |
In any case, Bad lua shouldn't cause a crash |
| 05:39 |
gregorycu |
I don't know how to handle it gracefully however |
| 05:40 |
kaeza |
I don't know how async calls work really, but in any case it should be some kind of hack as Lua is not really thread-safe |
| 05:40 |
kaeza |
and too sleepy to check out |
| 05:40 |
kaeza |
me, not Lua :P |
| 05:41 |
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| 05:43 |
gregorycu |
Before you go |
| 05:43 |
gregorycu |
You got no output in your console? |
| 05:43 |
kaeza |
just the regular intro |
| 05:44 |
gregorycu |
Interesting |
| 05:44 |
gregorycu |
If there is a lua error, it is meant to print to the console |
| 05:44 |
gregorycu |
Maybe there is a race condition where terminate is called before it gets the chance |
| 05:47 |
gregorycu |
This is a Lua issue, and I don't know enough |
| 06:09 |
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| 06:14 |
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| 06:14 |
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| 06:15 |
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| 06:29 |
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| 06:30 |
paramat |
hmmmm i have noticed the rounded-cube look of eased 3D noise, not unpleasant though, would tuning the easecurve help? |
| 06:31 |
hmmmm |
i don't think it would have a significant impact |
| 06:31 |
paramat |
non-eased 3D noise is still my favourite, looks amazing |
| 06:31 |
paramat |
i'm now testing lacunarity and flags in a lua mapgen, good so far and interesting |
| 06:32 |
hmmmm |
the rounded cube look i think is caused by having a low number of octaves |
| 06:32 |
paramat |
absvalue is indeed different to abs(2d noise result) |
| 06:32 |
Zeno` |
lunacy! |
| 06:33 |
hmmmm |
combined with a low persistence value |
| 06:34 |
paramat |
okay i'll test eased 3D noise next and try tuning it |
| 06:34 |
paramat |
what i mean of course is i noticed the rounded-cube look in mgv5 |
| 06:35 |
hmmmm |
is the output identical to the old mapgen v5? |
| 06:35 |
paramat |
perhaps slightly different |
| 06:36 |
paramat |
not sure |
| 06:38 |
paramat |
one thiing i did notice is new mgv5 seems to have more extreme values: higher mountains, more floatlands |
| 06:38 |
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| 06:39 |
hmmmm |
that's not necessarily good |
| 06:39 |
paramat |
uhuh, epic though |
| 06:40 |
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| 06:40 |
paramat |
highest point found in new mgv5 so far is y = 175 |
| 06:42 |
paramat |
https://cdn.mediacru.sh/R/R-Kj-hNdFDra.png |
| 06:45 |
gregorycu |
Is that good or bad? |
| 06:47 |
paramat |
good unless new mgv5 is significantly different from old mgv5 |
| 06:48 |
paramat |
i might re-compile c55's branch to compare again since i'm so unsure about this |
| 06:55 |
paramat |
mgv5 has terrain persistence 0.55, i'm tryng 0.63 in this lua mapgen and it looks awesome |
| 06:59 |
hmmmm |
aghh |
| 06:59 |
hmmmm |
i have to fix the irrlicht u64 problem every time i skip to a different old commit |
| 07:00 |
paramat |
the rounded-cube look is still subtly there but perhaps it's inherent with noise, not a problem to my eyes |
| 07:00 |
hmmmm |
it's inherent with that type of noise |
| 07:00 |
hmmmm |
simplex noise does not have this problem |
| 07:02 |
paramat |
interesting i'll research simplex |
| 07:03 |
paramat |
lacunarity 1.1 creates very high quality smooth rolling hills |
| 07:04 |
hmmmm |
with 3d noise? |
| 07:06 |
paramat |
2d |
| 07:06 |
hmmmm |
i tried modifying lacunarity a couple days ago, nothing below 2 though |
| 07:07 |
hmmmm |
with 3 it tends to make many small bumps in the terrain |
| 07:07 |
hmmmm |
so yeah, i guess it's the logical opposite of 1.1 |
| 07:08 |
hmmmm |
i can't help but wonder if the rounded cube look would be reduced if we used cubic interpolation rather than linear |
| 07:09 |
paramat |
lacunarity 1.1 with high octaves and persistence makes high quality 3d noise, very un-cubic |
| 07:09 |
paramat |
but heavy processing |
| 07:13 |
paramat |
ahhh its so good being back in lua mapgen, core is stressful |
| 07:14 |
paramat |
3d noise eased, absvalue is bubbly like merging bubbles with inverted ridges between |
| 07:15 |
paramat |
all checked and working then, thanks for these new possibilities |
| 07:31 |
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| 07:33 |
gregorycu |
Ahh damnit |
| 07:33 |
gregorycu |
Minetest searches for mods in ..\mods UNLESS it's under your home directory... |
| 07:36 |
gregorycu |
No, that's not accurate |
| 07:36 |
paramat |
okay simplex noise sounds excellent from research, really looking forward to that |
| 07:40 |
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| 07:42 |
hmmmm |
i can really understand when people say they miss the way 0.3.x was |
| 07:42 |
hmmmm |
there's a beautiful simplicity in it |
| 07:42 |
hmmmm |
super low tech but it works well |
| 07:44 |
gregorycu |
The Lua C API doesn't appear to make much sense |
| 07:47 |
hmmmm |
...? |
| 07:54 |
gregorycu |
For the record, minetest searches for mods relative to the binary if RUN_IN_PLACE is set, otherwise in user directory |
| 07:55 |
hmmmm |
that's the point of RUN_IN_PLACE |
| 07:55 |
gregorycu |
Yes... it would appear to be |
| 07:55 |
hmmmm |
paramat: http://i.imgur.com/ScVcjFm.jpg http://i.imgur.com/ScVcjFm.jpg |
| 07:55 |
hmmmm |
I'd say v5 is pretty different |
| 07:56 |
hmmmm |
er http://i.imgur.com/AZDj7w7.jpg |
| 07:56 |
gregorycu |
wow |
| 07:56 |
gregorycu |
What's your FoV? |
| 07:56 |
hmmmm |
what? |
| 07:56 |
gregorycu |
Field of view |
| 07:57 |
hmmmm |
paramat: most notably, 3d noise isn't eased in 0.3.3 |
| 07:57 |
hmmmm |
I don't know.. |
| 07:57 |
gregorycu |
It's large |
| 08:24 |
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| 08:24 |
* paramat |
looks |
| 08:25 |
paramat |
but eased in later 0.3.x? |
| 08:26 |
hmmmm |
this is the latest 0.3.x |
| 08:26 |
hmmmm |
btw here's the same thing with not-eased noise: http://i.imgur.com/rPb2QsH.jpg |
| 08:26 |
paramat |
so mgv5 only became eased in c55's branch...? |
| 08:26 |
hmmmm |
you're doing something waay different |
| 08:27 |
hmmmm |
mgv5 as in the mgv5 in 0.3.1, 0.3.2, and 0.3.3 |
| 08:27 |
hmmmm |
did he base his v5 revival off an earlier version? |
| 08:28 |
paramat |
don't know |
| 08:29 |
paramat |
his input on this will be interesting =) |
| 08:30 |
paramat |
all i know is right from the beginning of reviving v5 it was chosen to have eased noise |
| 08:30 |
paramat |
we could make it an option |
| 08:31 |
paramat |
when i compiled his branch it was almost certainly eased (from memory) |
| 08:31 |
paramat |
fairly sure |
| 08:32 |
paramat |
i would heve noticed the spikiness |
| 08:36 |
paramat |
non eased v5 looks good to me, should be an option, especially since it's true to some/all versions of 0.3.x |
| 08:37 |
hmmmm |
guess what |
| 08:37 |
hmmmm |
it's already an option |
| 08:37 |
hmmmm |
you can set mapgen noise parameters in the config :) |
| 08:38 |
paramat |
oh yeah |
| 08:38 |
paramat |
kewl |
| 08:39 |
hmmmm |
heh |
| 08:39 |
hmmmm |
looking at the commit where genuine perlin noise was dumped in favor of the simplified version |
| 08:40 |
hmmmm |
"// This is too slow" |
| 08:40 |
hmmmm |
i'll have to give it some love and bring that back too, since the noise it creates is typically of higher quality |
| 08:41 |
hmmmm |
humm |
| 08:41 |
hmmmm |
sorry to break it to ya but historically minetest never had eased 3d noise |
| 08:41 |
hmmmm |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/48a772b3c6388cbe7f9003557f27cc2cf51b8fe8 this is where 3d noise gets added |
| 08:42 |
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| 08:42 |
paramat |
in early 0.4.x |
| 08:44 |
hmmmm |
noise.cpp doesn't seem to be touched in 0.4.x |
| 08:46 |
Zeno` |
touch noise.cpp |
| 08:46 |
Zeno` |
problem fixed |
| 08:46 |
hmmmm |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commits/0.4.4/src/noise.cpp |
| 08:46 |
hmmmm |
so yeah |
| 08:46 |
paramat |
26 feb 2011 seems to be v0.2.x looking at releases |
| 08:47 |
Zeno` |
wow, I didn't realise it would have been that long |
| 08:47 |
hmmmm |
after adding the mindless "flip xz" and "constant 1" noise options, celeron didn't actually touch that file |
| 08:48 |
paramat |
O/ |
| 08:48 |
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| 12:52 |
kilbith |
does someone could update http://dev.minetest.net/Changelog please ? |
| 12:53 |
Zeno` |
0.4.11 is not released yet though |
| 12:53 |
kilbith |
it can me made since the freezing appliance |
| 12:54 |
Zeno` |
hmm, probably yeah |
| 12:55 |
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sol_invictus |
beeheizeitiesaijahbu |
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luizrpgluiz |
hi |
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| 14:42 |
roniz |
http://a.pomf.se/vrnjvs.png what is wrong with the glass? |
| 14:44 |
sfan5 |
roniz: 1) you should ask this in #minetest 2) the drawtype of glass should be set to glasslike |
| 14:45 |
roniz |
okay, can you help in #minetest sfan5 |
| 14:45 |
sfan5 |
roniz: see 2) |
| 14:46 |
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| 14:56 |
sfan5 |
celeron55: has there been a decision about including subgames into 0.4.11? |
| 14:59 |
celeron55 |
none of the menu stuff that postponed it from 0.4.10 was done, so the situation is quite the same |
| 14:59 |
sfan5 |
so.. no subgames? |
| 14:59 |
celeron55 |
i.e. there still are no game descriptions in the menu |
| 15:01 |
celeron55 |
what's the planned release day? |
| 15:01 |
sfan5 |
I think hmmmm said something about christmas |
| 15:01 |
sfan5 |
I wrote around 24th in the RC post on the forums |
| 15:02 |
sfan5 |
s/around 24th/"around the 24th"/ |
| 15:07 |
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| 15:14 |
celeron55 |
there's a serious polishedness issue in skytest for example |
| 15:14 |
celeron55 |
because the helicopter lags like literal hell due to the very heavyweight map generator |
| 15:15 |
sfan5 |
nore: https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/pull/379 ok? [yay/nay] |
| 15:15 |
celeron55 |
it's just... not worth releasing to the wide public, practically everyone would hate it |
| 15:16 |
kilbith |
Carbone is mature for it, though |
| 15:18 |
celeron55 |
guys, it would be kind of a good idea to focus development on these things that that subgames are trying to do but fail at due to engine issues |
| 15:18 |
Zeno` |
any comments on #1967? |
| 15:18 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1967 -- Add display_gamma option for client by Zeno- |
| 15:18 |
celeron55 |
instead of anything else |
| 15:18 |
celeron55 |
nothing else is worth it |
| 15:18 |
celeron55 |
just so that you know what to do for 0.4.12 |
| 15:20 |
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| 15:27 |
Zeno` |
celeron55, what kind of things? |
| 15:27 |
celeron55 |
this is still a very tough question |
| 15:27 |
celeron55 |
Zeno`: that isn't a tough question |
| 15:27 |
celeron55 |
Zeno`: the things that for example skytest and tutorial need are quite obvious |
| 15:28 |
celeron55 |
skytest needs a way to asynchronously generate the custom world so that the helicopter does not suck, and tutorial needs support for pre-made worlds which can be instantiated from the menu |
| 15:28 |
celeron55 |
and both need a description in the menu |
| 15:28 |
Zeno` |
I thought we were not allowed to add extra Lua functions |
| 15:29 |
celeron55 |
anything that is required for a clean implementation for each of those features is allowed, because how else they could ever be made? |
| 15:29 |
celeron55 |
but! the tough questions is subgames for this release |
| 15:30 |
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| 15:30 |
celeron55 |
question* |
| 15:31 |
shadowzone |
good thing my subgame is simple and doesn't have all these extra features |
| 15:31 |
hmmmm |
oh hey celeron |
| 15:31 |
hmmmm |
why is the ServerMap created after script init |
| 15:32 |
celeron55 |
shadowzone: that means it's also quite identical to minetest_game and thus unneeded |
| 15:32 |
celeron55 |
hmmmm: i don't know |
| 15:32 |
hmmmm |
good |
| 15:32 |
hmmmm |
i'm going to flip that around and remove on_mapgen_init |
| 15:33 |
celeron55 |
maybe you will find out while doing it |
| 15:34 |
hmmmm |
oh another thing |
| 15:34 |
shadowzone |
celeron55: I am trying to make different from minetest_game and I am young and still learning so I could use some encouraging. |
| 15:35 |
hmmmm |
what version was your mapgen v5 revival branch based on |
| 15:35 |
celeron55 |
shadowzone: that means you will need these extra features 8) |
| 15:35 |
shadowzone |
Which I hope to end up with |
| 15:35 |
shadowzone |
I am working on a HUGE mod for it |
| 15:35 |
hmmmm |
it certainly doesn't match the output of 0.3.3 (which has incredible terrain, by the way) and minetest never had eased 3d noise |
| 15:37 |
celeron55 |
i am guessing 0.3.2 because i have that code around |
| 15:37 |
hmmmm |
the difference between 0.3.2 and 0.3.3 is two commits and neither of them are related to map generation |
| 15:37 |
celeron55 |
i would guess the noise parameters have somehow got modified in the process of porting it |
| 15:37 |
celeron55 |
either their interpretation or the actual parameters itself |
| 15:38 |
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| 15:40 |
celeron55 |
or that they just haven't changed; obviously all screenshot of v5 over the years have been from the absolute best stuff it has ended up creating |
| 15:42 |
hmmmm |
i did a comparison last night with the same seed at the same position |
| 15:46 |
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| 15:47 |
celeron55 |
flying around in a current mgv5 world, i would say yes, this is the exact same stuff we had back then |
| 15:48 |
celeron55 |
dunno about exact seeds, doesn't seem like a big issue |
| 15:48 |
celeron55 |
various things have changed since then anyway |
| 15:48 |
hmmmm |
http://i.imgur.com/ScVcjFm.jpg http://i.imgur.com/AZDj7w7.jpg |
| 15:50 |
celeron55 |
i will say though that current texture packs are boring as hell compared to the bright colors of 0.3 |
| 15:53 |
Zeno` |
did 0.3 have stuff (land) floating in the air? |
| 15:54 |
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| 15:55 |
Megaf_ |
Zeno`: Im getting a billion of this |
| 15:55 |
Megaf_ |
10:53:57: ERROR[ServerThread]: ServerEnv: Trying to store id=2824 statically but block (-6,2,-13) already contains 128 objects. Forcing delete. |
| 15:55 |
Megaf_ |
like, 200 of them in one second |
| 15:56 |
Megaf_ |
I increased the number to 4000 |
| 15:57 |
Zeno` |
that has nothing to do with anything I've done AFAIK |
| 15:57 |
VanessaE |
I've gotten the same thing on my worlds before, and I've been unable to explain it |
| 15:58 |
Zeno` |
I get it on MTZ quite commonly :( |
| 15:58 |
VanessaE |
go to the mapblock in question and there are NONE in the block (not even the 128 allegedly already there) |
| 16:03 |
Megaf_ |
yep, there's nothing there |
| 16:03 |
sol_invictus |
reported block position is false |
| 16:03 |
VanessaE |
make sure you're in the right block (multiply the coords by 16 and teleport to there) |
| 16:04 |
VanessaE |
sol_invictus: oh? |
| 16:04 |
sol_invictus |
VanessaE: ah, right |
| 16:05 |
sol_invictus |
well, I remember I added logging to spawn entity function and the reported position of spawn entity and the error message were different |
| 16:06 |
sol_invictus |
anyway, why spawn entity is not logged? |
| 16:06 |
sol_invictus |
I'd help tracking down problems like this |
| 16:07 |
sol_invictus |
s/I'd/it'd |
| 16:21 |
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| 16:24 |
Calinou |
can be added in builtin code |
| 16:25 |
hmmmm |
so it's friday, supposed to be the day of the 0.4.11 release |
| 16:25 |
hmmmm |
what's the status on the blockers? |
| 16:29 |
Calinou |
wasn't it December 24? |
| 16:29 |
Zeno` |
2 blockers fixed, 3 to go |
| 16:30 |
hmmmm |
no, there's a week of feature freezes |
| 16:30 |
kilbith |
hmmm: the week-end is the period when the devs are the most available for reviewing the PRs, better releasing after that |
| 16:31 |
hmmmm |
so |
| 16:31 |
hmmmm |
#1896 has a patch already - nobody committed it? |
| 16:31 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1896 -- font_size setting broken |
| 16:32 |
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| 16:32 |
hmmmm |
#1860, RBA said he's working on it yesterday |
| 16:32 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1860 -- Wield item is always fully bright |
| 16:32 |
hmmmm |
the root cause for #1959 was found i think, kaeza is the one working on that i think? |
| 16:32 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1959 -- Checking public serverlist checkbox causes minetest to freeze. |
| 16:33 |
hmmmm |
we could theoretically get this out today |
| 16:33 |
Zeno` |
#1896 has a workaround committed that you and I discussed, hmmmm |
| 16:33 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1896 -- font_size setting broken |
| 16:33 |
hmmmm |
then perhaps the blocker label should be removed |
| 16:33 |
Zeno` |
well, I dunno |
| 16:35 |
Zeno` |
5c55738 is related |
| 16:35 |
Zeno` |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/f7f7fec497f83da0d9f6ea2e83796720484033ff is the one that bypasses the issue |
| 16:37 |
Zeno` |
Since sapier seems to be away maybe the blocker should be removed |
| 16:37 |
hmmmm |
yeah it was |
| 16:38 |
hmmmm |
as far as i understand, the other two are in progress |
| 16:41 |
Zeno` |
Since the issue no longer manifests because the offending code is commented maybe the blocker should be removed |
| 16:42 |
Zeno` |
it still needs to be fixed but it doesn't look like anyone is working on it and *shrug* the current version works |
| 16:43 |
VanessaE |
hmmmm: the release date IS december 24. |
| 16:43 |
VanessaE |
that was the target date. |
| 16:44 |
hmmmm |
who came up with friday as the feature freeze then |
| 16:44 |
VanessaE |
beast me |
| 16:44 |
VanessaE |
beats* |
| 16:44 |
hmmmm |
a one week feature freeze started last friday |
| 16:44 |
hmmmm |
so this friday at whatever time, there should be a release |
| 16:44 |
VanessaE |
er, today is friday you know... |
| 16:45 |
Zeno` |
not here! It's saturday here |
| 16:45 |
VanessaE |
sorry, your choice of words just seems odd |
| 16:45 |
hmmmm |
but today is not the 24th |
| 16:45 |
VanessaE |
anyway, the 24th is the target date. |
| 16:45 |
hmmmm |
aha |
| 16:45 |
VanessaE |
it was supposed to be out by then as a "christmas release" |
| 16:45 |
hmmmm |
i don't know who came up with that |
| 16:45 |
hmmmm |
christmas release doesn't mean it needs to be released on or right before christmas |
| 16:46 |
VanessaE |
um, yeah it does |
| 16:46 |
VanessaE |
that's basic marketing |
| 16:46 |
hmmmm |
.. |
| 16:46 |
hmmmm |
well look |
| 16:46 |
hmmmm |
as soon as these two blockers get resolved, there's going to be a release |
| 16:46 |
Zeno` |
the release date as far as I know is the 24th |
| 16:46 |
hmmmm |
point me to where that was said |
| 16:46 |
Zeno` |
no, leave it until the 24th hmmmm |
| 16:46 |
hmmmm |
could you explain why |
| 16:47 |
VanessaE |
Dec 19 10:01:55 <sfan5> I think hmmmm said something about christmas |
| 16:47 |
VanessaE |
Dec 19 10:02:06 <sfan5> I wrote around 24th in the RC post on the forums |
| 16:47 |
Zeno` |
because that is the date that was published and that's the purpose of a feature freeze even if no new issue crop up |
| 16:47 |
VanessaE |
but that's far too recent, lemme search back |
| 16:47 |
hmmmm |
I said we should add a snowman block that gets added to maps around christmas time |
| 16:48 |
hmmmm |
and stops getting added after christmas |
| 16:48 |
VanessaE |
hmmmm: that ^^^ was in response to c55 asking what the release date was. |
| 16:48 |
Zeno` |
you don't "feature freeze" until x/x/x and then decide before that date there is nothing left to resolve and release anyway |
| 16:48 |
VanessaE |
I'm checking logs |
| 16:48 |
hmmmm |
Zeno`, the feature freeze was defined to be a week lon |
| 16:48 |
hmmmm |
long |
| 16:48 |
hmmmm |
that's the problem i'm having |
| 16:49 |
hmmmm |
so if the release date were actually going to be the 24th, why wasn't the feature freeze on the 17th? |
| 16:49 |
Zeno` |
I'm certain the 24th was specified. If not then *shrug* (but a week is not long enough; that's a different issue) |
| 16:49 |
VanessaE |
hmmmm: why does anything around here lag behind? |
| 16:50 |
Zeno` |
it was/is a 2 week feature freeze IIRC |
| 16:50 |
hmmmm |
because people like yourself and zeno think that we should wait longer |
| 16:50 |
hmmmm |
that's why |
| 16:50 |
Zeno` |
me? |
| 16:50 |
hmmmm |
you're clearly a proponent of a 24th release |
| 16:51 |
Zeno` |
Yes, I do think 2 weeks is more appropriate but I was not involved in the discussion at all |
| 16:51 |
Zeno` |
So don't look at me :P |
| 16:51 |
hmmmm |
the development process as a whole is fubar |
| 16:52 |
hmmmm |
waiting some arbitrary amount of time doesn't make the software better |
| 16:52 |
VanessaE |
um... |
| 16:52 |
hmmmm |
this is like Debian |
| 16:52 |
Zeno` |
it does. It gives people time to TEST |
| 16:52 |
hmmmm |
"if we have REALLY old packages, our OS will be more stable" |
| 16:52 |
Zeno` |
you really think 2 weeks is a long time? |
| 16:53 |
VanessaE |
we should "wait longer" because we have a BAD habit of making a pending-release announcement when there are nasty bugs left on the table, and not focusing on fixing those nasty bugs before people start talking about releasing... |
| 16:53 |
hmmmm |
0.4.11 should have its own branch already |
| 16:53 |
hmmmm |
any bugfixes should be retroactively applied to that |
| 16:53 |
hmmmm |
development should never stop though |
| 16:53 |
VanessaE |
I don't care if it's released at christmas, channukah (8th night, since the 1st night is long past), new years, easter, or any other major holiday |
| 16:54 |
hmmmm |
this has got to be the only project in existence that doesn't have a distinction between -RELEASE and -CURRENT |
| 16:54 |
VanessaE |
I care that a release is planned when there are few big, user-facing bugs on the table, such that devs who are capable of fixing those bugs can find the time and can be bothered to fix them |
| 16:54 |
Zeno` |
it's probably one of about 2 projects that also has functions that are 500 lines ore more (commonly) |
| 16:55 |
Zeno` |
seriously, what is wrong with a feature freeze? |
| 16:56 |
hmmmm |
nothing, but you need to set a boundary somewhere |
| 16:56 |
Zeno` |
yes, the boundary is the 24th |
| 16:56 |
hmmmm |
1 week was the agreed upon boundary |
| 16:56 |
hmmmm |
this better be the least buggy release ever done |
| 16:56 |
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| 16:56 |
Zeno` |
1 week to check for bugs and properly test? |
| 16:57 |
hmmmm |
we shouldn't have to do so many god damn bugs |
| 16:57 |
Zeno` |
even 2 weeks is not long enough |
| 16:57 |
hmmmm |
from now on if someone adds a new feature, they need to add unit tests for it |
| 16:57 |
Zeno` |
you cannot unit test many of the things in minetest |
| 16:57 |
VanessaE |
hmmmm: oh, also, the start-of-freeze was delayed because kahrl was working on adding some icons |
| 16:57 |
VanessaE |
Dec 12 16:16:46 <Tesseract> I'm just waiting on kahrl for icons before start |
| 16:57 |
VanessaE |
ing the freeze. |
| 16:57 |
VanessaE |
Dec 12 16:17:15 <Tesseract> hmmmm: Really? Is anyone going to make substant |
| 16:57 |
hmmmm |
then perhaps your software is poorly designed |
| 16:58 |
Zeno` |
unit tests for anything but the lowest level of functions are a waste of time |
| 16:58 |
VanessaE |
(oops, ignore the second line) |
| 16:58 |
Zeno` |
hmmmm, my software? |
| 16:58 |
VanessaE |
and before that, Dec 12 13:14:40 <PilzAdam> ok, so we freeze today? |
| 16:58 |
Zeno` |
no, I don't think so :P |
| 16:58 |
hmmmm |
minetest as a whole |
| 16:58 |
VanessaE |
Dec 12 13:15:22 <Tesseract> PilzAdam: +1 |
| 16:59 |
VanessaE |
so yeah, freeze was announced and began on the 12th |
| 16:59 |
hmmmm |
yeah |
| 16:59 |
hmmmm |
you and zeno both indicated you want it to be longer than a week |
| 16:59 |
hmmmm |
so the date which the feature freeze went into effect is irrelevant |
| 17:00 |
Zeno` |
hmmmm, a week is not long enough. But I based all of my comments on the fact that I *thought* 24th was the planned released dat |
| 17:00 |
Zeno` |
date* |
| 17:00 |
hmmmm |
zeno-, have you ever heard of test-driven design |
| 17:00 |
Zeno` |
those remaining two blockers will not be fixed today anyway |
| 17:00 |
Zeno` |
hmmmm, I have |
| 17:00 |
hmmmm |
well then |
| 17:01 |
Zeno` |
hmmmm, you can not convert the minetest codebase to a test-driven design because of the crap load of functions that do 25428592 different things |
| 17:01 |
Zeno` |
instead of ONE |
| 17:02 |
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| 17:02 |
Zeno` |
well, you can. But not this month |
| 17:02 |
hmmmm |
and that's fine |
| 17:02 |
hmmmm |
good things take time |
| 17:02 |
hmmmm |
a lot of end users are starting to complain about overall quality being more important than having new features |
| 17:02 |
Zeno` |
there are good arguments against test-driven design as well |
| 17:02 |
VanessaE |
AH |
| 17:02 |
VanessaE |
found the reference |
| 17:02 |
VanessaE |
Dec 12 10:08:23 <sfan5> there are about 12 days left until we plan to release, w |
| 17:02 |
VanessaE |
ould not be a good time to release an RC build for people to test? |
| 17:02 |
hmmmm |
the reason why we focus on new features is because that's what everybody wanted initially |
| 17:03 |
VanessaE |
that equates to dec. 24 |
| 17:03 |
sfan5 |
VanessaE: that's a guess |
| 17:03 |
sfan5 |
s/that's/that was/ |
| 17:03 |
sfan5 |
ugh |
| 17:03 |
sfan5 |
s/.*/I was not sure when we planned to release./ |
| 17:04 |
sfan5 |
VanessaE: try searching before that date |
| 17:04 |
celeron55 |
i'm testing some subgames to be up to date with them |
| 17:04 |
VanessaE |
and besides, according to my logs, *I* was the one who suggested start-of-freeze on Dec 10 and release day on Dec 24 |
| 17:04 |
VanessaE |
sfan5: ^^ |
| 17:04 |
celeron55 |
voxelgarden is a very solid start at something slightly different than mt_game, but it's lacking content; i'm guessing it will be good once the author finds a way to add mobs in a solid way |
| 17:05 |
VanessaE |
well not suggested but rather put 2-and-2 together |
| 17:05 |
celeron55 |
everything it contains is of high quality |
| 17:05 |
hmmmm |
speaking of mobs |
| 17:05 |
hmmmm |
mobv2 is broken in 0.3.3 |
| 17:05 |
hmmmm |
thanks to an irrlicht interface change |
| 17:05 |
celeron55 |
carbone is a bit like a lower quality less different version of voxelgarden with more content |
| 17:06 |
Zeno` |
One of the best arguments against test-driven design is that all the things it's suppose to do can be in the actual code |
| 17:06 |
Zeno` |
except assert() is redefined |
| 17:06 |
Zeno` |
in mt |
| 17:06 |
celeron55 |
skytest is awesome but the helicopter sucks due to the engine |
| 17:06 |
celeron55 |
tutorial needs management functionality in menu |
| 17:06 |
hmmmm |
assert() was made to be redefined |
| 17:07 |
celeron55 |
none of this is very good |
| 17:07 |
Zeno` |
hmmmm, it is not, however, meant to persist in release builds |
| 17:07 |
hmmmm |
it doesn't |
| 17:07 |
Zeno` |
it does in minetest |
| 17:07 |
hmmmm |
if that's true, then it's a problem |
| 17:08 |
celeron55 |
is everyone going to hate me if i will still say that subgames need to wait for the engine to catch up with them |
| 17:09 |
hmmmm |
no, it's true |
| 17:09 |
hmmmm |
but damn |
| 17:09 |
hmmmm |
people want new features |
| 17:09 |
hmmmm |
people want a good interface for their subgames |
| 17:09 |
celeron55 |
we need to add features to the engine based on what subgames want to do |
| 17:09 |
hmmmm |
people want minetest to be stable and backwards compatible |
| 17:09 |
hmmmm |
people want better quality control |
| 17:09 |
Zeno` |
hmmmm, https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/src/debug.h#L80 |
| 17:10 |
Zeno` |
read and weep |
| 17:10 |
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| 17:10 |
hmmmm |
for the people to get what they want, minetest would need to have full time developers |
| 17:10 |
VanessaE |
http://irc.minetest.ru/minetest-dev/2014-11-30#i_4043879 |
| 17:10 |
VanessaE |
that's enough. |
| 17:11 |
celeron55 |
hmmmm: what i am saying is that everything else can have lower priority |
| 17:11 |
Zeno` |
assert() is used incorrectly all throughout minetest, so there is this horrible hack there |
| 17:11 |
hmmmm |
okay then |
| 17:12 |
celeron55 |
i'm okay with changing debug.h's assert to not override the standard assert |
| 17:12 |
hmmmm |
priority is a murky concept when you're dealing with people not on the hook to get this piece software working |
| 17:12 |
hmmmm |
I'll certainly respect priorities though |
| 17:12 |
celeron55 |
(and leave it there for where it's explicitly wanted) |
| 17:12 |
hmmmm |
is there a list of subgame requests? |
| 17:13 |
VanessaE |
https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=9103 |
| 17:14 |
celeron55 |
umm |
| 17:14 |
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| 17:14 |
celeron55 |
there is a thread on the forum but i cannot find itt |
| 17:14 |
celeron55 |
it* |
| 17:14 |
celeron55 |
about modder's requests directed to engine development |
| 17:14 |
celeron55 |
where the hell is it? |
| 17:15 |
Krock |
Already checked the forum "Inofficial Developement"? |
| 17:16 |
celeron55 |
here i think; it has devolved into something not very useful though https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=9179 |
| 17:16 |
celeron55 |
i'll consider starting to collect such a list myself |
| 17:18 |
VanessaE |
this? https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=9709 |
| 17:22 |
VanessaE |
eh, beat me to it. |
| 17:24 |
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| 17:28 |
hmmmm |
different topic... what do you guys think about running abms in a coroutine so that we can lua_yield() after a certain timeout |
| 17:28 |
hmmmm |
this way Server consumers don't get starved from a mod that's taking too long |
| 17:29 |
VanessaE |
how much effort would it take? |
| 17:29 |
Krock |
hmmmm, how long would be that timeout? |
| 17:31 |
Krock |
#1987 any thoughts? I tested it and haven't got any problems with it |
| 17:31 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1987 -- Change TileSpec::frames to be std::vector not std::map by gregorycu |
| 17:31 |
Krock |
..yet |
| 17:32 |
Krock |
Yes, it could be labeled as feature.. |
| 17:32 |
Krock |
but it would increase the speed (looking on his pictures) |
| 17:33 |
Zeno` |
There is no problem with it as far as I can see and, perhaps, std::vector is the better type but profiling on Linux yields no difference |
| 17:33 |
Zeno` |
That said, I would agree to it because std::vector seems the more appropriate data type |
| 17:35 |
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| 17:35 |
Zeno` |
and maybe it does help with MSVC build... I can't profile that |
| 17:35 |
Krock |
hmmmm, If I may ask - What would you say about the PR above? |
| 17:36 |
hmmmm |
it's fine but it can't get committed until after the release |
| 17:36 |
Krock |
too bad :( |
| 17:37 |
Zeno` |
why? |
| 17:37 |
Zeno` |
it probably makes no difference with an optimised build |
| 17:38 |
Zeno` |
it's better but not something that is "too bad" :( |
| 17:39 |
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| 17:41 |
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| 17:45 |
Krock |
Zeno`, I'm not sure if it's the commit but I have about 10% less CPU usage now |
| 17:45 |
VanessaE |
celeron55: here's an important one: |
| 17:45 |
VanessaE |
https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=9709#p147812 |
| 17:46 |
VanessaE |
pretty much every complex mod out there aside from his list suffers this problem. |
| 17:46 |
kaeza |
related to that ^, I've been thinking of a way to allow mods to override the description for a particular ItemStack |
| 17:47 |
VanessaE |
yep, that too |
| 17:48 |
kaeza |
I have a hacky proposal: if the ItemStack metadata is valid JSON, use some fields from it for special things |
| 17:49 |
kaeza |
like "image", "description", etc, fields |
| 17:49 |
kaeza |
if it can't be parsed as JSON, just do nothing |
| 17:49 |
kaeza |
but... not sure if metadata is sent to client in the first place anyway :P |
| 17:49 |
hmmmm |
okay in order to do that you need to read map metadata |
| 17:50 |
hmmmm |
for every single node written to a mesh |
| 17:50 |
hmmmm |
this is sllllow |
| 17:50 |
kaeza |
"node"? |
| 17:50 |
hmmmm |
"node" |
| 17:50 |
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| 17:50 |
hmmmm |
ahh itemstack |
| 17:51 |
kaeza |
yeah |
| 17:51 |
VanessaE |
well there is still that old meta-set-nodedef branch...... ;) |
| 17:51 |
hmmmm |
ha ha ... |
| 17:51 |
VanessaE |
(it could be used to solve this issue) |
| 17:51 |
hmmmm |
nope |
| 17:51 |
VanessaE |
I never said it was efficient ;) |
| 17:51 |
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| 17:55 |
kaeza |
how to translate from node meta to stack meta is left up to mods, and the JSON parsing and interpretation of fields is done fully client-side |
| 17:56 |
kaeza |
and since stack meta is just a regular string it should be backwards compatible |
| 17:58 |
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| 18:00 |
VanessaE |
and here's another one: https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=9709&start=50#p150944 |
| 18:00 |
VanessaE |
(summary: liquids should just stop flowing at all when they hit CONTENT_IGNORE, rather than trying to spread) |
| 18:04 |
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| 18:08 |
VanessaE |
https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=9709&start=75#p155705 |
| 18:09 |
VanessaE |
I've noticed that middle-click-to-craft-10 slowness as well, even in singleplayer |
| 18:10 |
VanessaE |
celeron55: you wanted to make a list, this thread (same one I pointed you at) does have some good stuff. |
| 18:24 |
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| 18:26 |
VanessaE |
bbl |
| 18:40 |
kaeza |
the middle-click-to-craft-10 issue is because the client or server makes 10 "pick one" requests instead of a single "pick ten" request |
| 18:42 |
jin_xi |
srs |
| 18:43 |
kaeza |
or at least, the log outputs 10 times "player foo crafted bar:baz 1", instead of a single "player foo crafted bar:baz 10" |
| 18:44 |
kaeza |
each "request" possibly has to make a slow look up with get_craft_recipe or whatever |
| 18:51 |
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| 19:31 |
hmmmm |
hey celeron |
| 19:31 |
hmmmm |
if you're around I was just wondering what the rationale was behind the restrictions on PseudoRandom() |
| 19:31 |
hmmmm |
why does min and max have to be within a certain range? |
| 19:32 |
celeron55 |
it happens to have a rather limited implementation |
| 19:32 |
hmmmm |
but what was the whole purpose |
| 19:32 |
hmmmm |
did you just decide to add some arbitrary restrictions to it |
| 19:32 |
celeron55 |
what restriction exactly? |
| 19:32 |
hmmmm |
if(max-min > 32768/10) |
| 19:33 |
celeron55 |
if you have eg. max-min=25000, you get much higher chance of the result being <7768 or something than any other value |
| 19:33 |
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| 19:33 |
celeron55 |
because it's just % basically |
| 19:35 |
hmmmm |
huh |
| 19:35 |
celeron55 |
it's embarrassingly bad really but this is again one of those things that has worked well enough that nobody noticed it wasn't really up to scratch |
| 19:35 |
hmmmm |
it's really bad actually |
| 19:35 |
celeron55 |
and now people rely on it giving the same values |
| 19:35 |
celeron55 |
(well, some people; not that many i would guess) |
| 19:35 |
hmmmm |
for example blockseeds are always even or odd depending on the least significant bit of the map seed |
| 19:36 |
hmmmm |
so anything that does range(0,1) == 0 or whatever would always fail for a specific map |
| 19:36 |
hmmmm |
or always be true for a different map |
| 19:36 |
hmmmm |
a better random is definitely needed, but i don't completely understand what you mean by this |
| 19:36 |
hmmmm |
[02:33 PM] <celeron55> if you have eg. max-min=25000, you get much higher chance of the result being <7768 or something than any other value |
| 19:36 |
hmmmm |
did you find that out via experimentation? |
| 19:37 |
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| 19:37 |
celeron55 |
it randomizes a value that has a proper distribution between 0 and 32767 or something like that (i assume here that it does exactly this, it might differ a bit) |
| 19:37 |
celeron55 |
so then when you feed that value to %25000, the distribution shifts |
| 19:38 |
hmmmm |
ahhh |
| 19:38 |
hmmmm |
i get what you mean |
| 19:38 |
celeron55 |
you no longer get >25000 values and they add to the <7000 values |
| 19:38 |
hmmmm |
the proper way to do this would not to use modulo but rather floating point division by the max |
| 19:38 |
hmmmm |
yes I totally understand |
| 19:38 |
hmmmm |
that is a rather obvious consequence of using such a mechanism |
| 19:38 |
celeron55 |
well to begin with, i think it should generate enough bits to not fall into this problem at all no matter how it does it |
| 19:39 |
hmmmm |
(float)next() / RAND_MAX) * (max - min) + min |
| 19:39 |
celeron55 |
that would then consistently prefer some values over others still |
| 19:39 |
hmmmm |
it generates 32 bits but only uses the lower 16 of them |
| 19:39 |
hmmmm |
how would that? |
| 19:39 |
celeron55 |
it should just detect that it needs a large value and do the equivalent of rand()<<whatever+rand() |
| 19:39 |
celeron55 |
and then continue from there |
| 19:39 |
hmmmm |
you're supposed to use the middle-ish 16 bits of m_next |
| 19:40 |
hmmmm |
the lower bits in a LCG are notorious for having low enthropy |
| 19:40 |
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| 19:40 |
hmmmm |
oh sorry |
| 19:40 |
hmmmm |
you use the top 16 bits |
| 19:41 |
hmmmm |
so really it's m_next[16:31] |
| 19:43 |
hmmmm |
how would what I proposed prefer some values over others, assuming the rand algorithm generates uniformly random bits (which it doesn't in practice)? |
| 19:43 |
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| 19:44 |
celeron55 |
because of the rounding |
| 19:44 |
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| 19:44 |
celeron55 |
if you squeeze 3 into 2, you'll get 2 in one bucket and 1 in the other |
| 19:45 |
hmmmm |
is C-style truncate-to-zero rounding the issue? |
| 19:46 |
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| 19:46 |
hmmmm |
it seems so |
| 19:47 |
hmmmm |
(int)((float)next() / RAND_MAX) * (max - min) + min + 0.5f) |
| 19:48 |
hmmmm |
with this ^, pr.range(2,3) should be 2 50% of the time |
| 19:52 |
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| 20:10 |
celeron55 |
hmmmm: but pr:range(0,32766) will be some value 2 times more often than the other values |
| 20:10 |
celeron55 |
this was my original point |
| 20:10 |
celeron55 |
it will happen no matter how you round it |
| 20:10 |
hmmmm |
ahhh |
| 20:11 |
hmmmm |
pidgeonholled |
| 20:11 |
celeron55 |
precise random generators actually generate more bits than needed and *throw away* results that are out of the wanted range |
| 20:13 |
celeron55 |
but i guess we can get away by generating a bunch of extra bits and just scaling or taking modulo of the result |
| 20:15 |
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| 20:18 |
hmmmm |
that's how pseudorandom already works... |
| 20:18 |
hmmmm |
it wouldn't hurt to have a better algorithm like the mersenne twister |
| 20:22 |
kilbith |
Tesseract: you could add paramat as active contributor in credits |
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| 21:26 |
casimir |
I already asked this in the forum, but will subgames be included in 0.4.11 ? |
| 21:31 |
celeron55 |
the situation with them hasn't changed at all since 0.4.10 |
| 21:31 |
celeron55 |
so sadly and due to engine development being done in the wrong parts, i don't think they will |
| 21:32 |
celeron55 |
there is only one type of subgame that is not nonsensical to consider given the situation of subgames and the engine |
| 21:33 |
celeron55 |
that type is the "mt_game with way more content" type |
| 21:33 |
celeron55 |
which basically holds dreambuilder and carbone |
| 21:33 |
celeron55 |
(if you want to know more you could read today's logs) |
| 21:35 |
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| 21:43 |
celeron55 |
i would like to hear it if someone has a good reason for objecting this decision |
| 21:45 |
celeron55 |
i like where the tutorial, skytest and voxelgarden are going but each of them is limited by the engine right now |
| 21:46 |
celeron55 |
and i am very dulled out by the mt_game-with-simply-more-content subgames |
| 21:47 |
celeron55 |
does someone think that officially recommending carbone to be included with mt_game in builds would be a good idea? |
| 21:48 |
celeron55 |
well, it's a fact that some people do |
| 21:48 |
celeron55 |
does someone have a reason to object that being done? |
| 21:52 |
Megaf_ |
The only game that should be officially included is minetest_game and the user must me told about choice and alternatives |
| 21:54 |
Megaf_ |
hmmmm: How hard would it be to implement Proxy support, like Socksv5 in Minetest? |
| 21:54 |
kaeza |
that is exactly what we have now, and it's working marvelously /s |
| 21:55 |
Megaf_ |
kaeza: that what? |
| 21:55 |
kaeza |
Megaf_> The only game that should be officially included is minetest_game and the user must me told about choice and alternatives |
| 21:56 |
Megaf_ |
kaeza: the one that is included is minimal |
| 22:15 |
celeron55 |
informing the user would be good indeed |
| 22:15 |
celeron55 |
doing it in the current menu or game would be very clumsy |
| 22:15 |
celeron55 |
this stuff simply isn't up to scratch now |
| 22:16 |
celeron55 |
i guess i will personally implement this for 0.4.12 |
| 22:16 |
celeron55 |
everyone else already had the chance, now i decide how it's done 8) |
| 22:18 |
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| 22:18 |
celeron55 |
i for sure hope implementing it isn't worse than with irrlicht's native UI system |
| 22:22 |
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| 22:25 |
hmmmm |
wow |
| 22:25 |
hmmmm |
it is so frustrating how sensitive noise parameters are |
| 22:28 |
hmmmm |
tada! http://i.imgur.com/Fu7YJEx.png ore veins |
| 23:02 |
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| 23:10 |
luizrpgluiz |
hi |
| 23:19 |
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| 23:21 |
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| 23:30 |
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| 23:31 |
luizrpgluiz |
when will end the test session of the new version of minetest? |
| 23:36 |
kaeza |
I published an Inno Setup script to make an installer a while ago; I can modify it so it installs only minimal, and optionally download and install other games as well. |
| 23:37 |
kaeza |
FWIW, CMake has the capability to create installers with such a feature too |
| 23:37 |
kaeza |
Inno Setup is Windows-only I think; not sure about CMake-made installers |
| 23:40 |
kaeza |
well, for Linux it doesn't matter anyway, as that work is carried by the relevant package manager |
| 23:43 |
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| 23:58 |
celeron55 |
i don't think any distributions have minetest and games listed separately though |
| 23:58 |
celeron55 |
at lest fedora and ubuntu don't |
| 23:58 |
celeron55 |
least* |
