| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 00:16 |
sapier |
would it be difficult to enable tables in forum? |
| 00:59 |
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| 01:36 |
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| 01:41 |
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| 01:48 |
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| 04:06 |
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| 04:48 |
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| 05:02 |
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| 05:15 |
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| 06:06 |
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| 06:18 |
Eater4 |
celeron55: have you (are anyone who runs the serverlist) decide to extend the max servers to a higher number? |
| 06:30 |
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| 06:45 |
celeron55 |
Eater4: i have nothing to do with the list |
| 06:45 |
celeron55 |
xyz hosts it, proller has implemented the server side and sapier probably knows most about the client side |
| 06:46 |
Eater4 |
oh ok |
| 06:49 |
VanessaE |
kaeza and I and a couple others discussed the idea earlier of getting someone (read: not us because we have no access and no skill in this field) to implement a weighted sorting method into the list, both on the website and in the client, based on four factors: uptime, lag, some sort of community upvoting, and some kind of alpha sorting (maybe by domain or so). |
| 06:50 |
VanessaE |
as it stands now it is incredibly unfair to the less-popular servers to be left to flounder in the backwaters of the bottom of the list just because they have few users. |
| 06:53 |
celeron55 |
lag is a bit troublesome |
| 06:53 |
VanessaE |
yeah I know |
| 06:53 |
VanessaE |
it's based out of Russia or something |
| 06:54 |
celeron55 |
but voting and uptime would seem like something that people would find useful |
| 06:54 |
celeron55 |
xyz hosts stuff in germany |
| 06:54 |
VanessaE |
oh, ok |
| 06:54 |
celeron55 |
(lag is going to affect votes anyway) |
| 06:54 |
VanessaE |
not sure where I got the Russia bit from) |
| 06:55 |
celeron55 |
well his main domain is minetest.ru |
| 06:55 |
VanessaE |
the alpha order factor is there for the idea that if num_votes * uptime is roughly equal among two or more servers, then they'll end up listed in alpha order (in theory) |
| 06:56 |
VanessaE |
right - I must still be stuck on the idea that he was hosting the list from some server over there then. eh, no matter. |
| 06:57 |
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| 07:02 |
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| 07:48 |
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| 08:11 |
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| 08:33 |
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| 08:37 |
proller |
Eater4, what extend?? |
| 08:38 |
Eater4 |
expand the max servers on the public server list and website |
| 08:39 |
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| 08:39 |
proller |
VanessaE, all games sorts server list by player number, or have adjustable srting |
| 08:39 |
VanessaE |
proller: also, please read scrollback ... ok, you read it. |
| 08:39 |
proller |
Eater4, how to expand? |
| 08:40 |
sapier |
I don't know of any limitation to serverlist on client side |
| 08:40 |
VanessaE |
proller: as we lack any kind of adjustable sorting, we need at least a more fair way of balancing out "best" versus "most busy". "most busy" often is not the best but merely "has the most people signing on and off all day long". |
| 08:42 |
Eater4 |
http://minetest.net/servers |
| 08:42 |
Eater4 |
See the servers? 40/45? |
| 08:42 |
VanessaE |
proller: that's why I suggested something that should roughly calculate out to a sort of a "best score" |
| 08:42 |
VanessaE |
Eater4: 45 is how many servers the list has seen since its last restart, I think |
| 08:42 |
proller |
Eater4, and what to expand? |
| 08:42 |
VanessaE |
not the max possible number |
| 08:43 |
proller |
45 - was maximum online in one time |
| 08:43 |
Eater4 |
Really? |
| 08:43 |
VanessaE |
proller: I think he believes the list will hard-cut the number of entries at 45. :P |
| 08:43 |
Eater4 |
I did not know, sorry |
| 08:44 |
proller |
703 - hacked player number, one bad man have hacked server with 500+x players online |
| 08:44 |
VanessaE |
proller: yeah, that should probably be reset, imho :) |
| 08:45 |
VanessaE |
and in fact that bad server is precisely why I left number-of-players out of my proposed "best score" idea :) |
| 08:45 |
VanessaE |
you can't hack uptime, ping, or lag, and users' votes would be somewhat difficult to bias as well. |
| 08:46 |
proller |
no, only ping fully masterserver-side |
| 08:46 |
proller |
others recieved |
| 08:46 |
VanessaE |
yep I know, but that's a variable I figure the master server could send to the clients as part of this proposed score |
| 08:46 |
proller |
VanessaE, an you find good score formula? |
| 08:46 |
VanessaE |
let the master server make these calculations server-side and just send the scores to the clients. |
| 08:47 |
VanessaE |
proller: I have been thinking about it. the terms would be pretty simple, you know.. just this times that times the other thing. no complicated algebra or anything |
| 08:48 |
VanessaE |
maybe votes*uptime/(lag*ping) |
| 08:49 |
VanessaE |
then scale the result to some reasonable range, e.g. 8 or 16 bit int |
| 08:49 |
proller |
most popular servers must be on first places |
| 08:49 |
VanessaE |
well votes would be weighted |
| 08:50 |
VanessaE |
so how about, ((votes*vote_weight*uptime)/(lag*ping))*scale_factor |
| 08:50 |
sapier |
I wonder if we have any chance to not get a manipulated automatic weighting |
| 08:50 |
proller |
you want implement vote system to pick up your average-0-players servers |
| 08:50 |
VanessaE |
the idea being that lag, ping, and uptime could drag a server down to the ground if it has few votes |
| 08:50 |
proller |
? |
| 08:51 |
VanessaE |
proller: almost but not entirely unlike that, yeah :) |
| 08:51 |
VanessaE |
a good server has low ping times, low lag, a nice number of votes, and a reasonable uptime, yes? |
| 08:51 |
VanessaE |
with number of votes and lag/ping probably being the most important factors |
| 08:51 |
proller |
good server have most connected users. |
| 08:52 |
VanessaE |
not really |
| 08:52 |
proller |
ddo what you want. |
| 08:52 |
VanessaE |
look at that bad one that had 500+ |
| 08:52 |
proller |
ask ShadowNinja to rewrite serve on php |
| 08:52 |
proller |
and hardcode your servers on first place |
| 08:52 |
proller |
bye |
| 08:52 |
VanessaE |
um |
| 08:53 |
VanessaE |
dude, that was uncalled for... |
| 08:53 |
Eater4 |
VanessaE: take a look at isis >:( |
| 08:53 |
VanessaE |
my servers will still end up somewhere in the middle of the list regardless of the formula that's used |
| 08:55 |
sapier |
I'm not conviced trouble/use relation of this feature is worth the work, any algorithm we implement is easy to manipulate |
| 08:56 |
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| 08:56 |
asl |
and ping isn't really fair |
| 08:56 |
VanessaE |
sapier: perhaps, but if the choice is between a formula that can be manipulated versus using a method that IS being manipulated? I'd choose the formula. |
| 08:57 |
VanessaE |
asl: by itself, you're right. |
| 08:57 |
sapier |
ping is useless as having a good ping to server list doesn't tell anything |
| 08:57 |
sapier |
and pings told by server aren't relieable |
| 08:57 |
VanessaE |
ok so leave ping out and just use the lag value. |
| 08:58 |
sapier |
which isn't relieable too as anything told by server ... that's the 500+x issue |
| 08:58 |
VanessaE |
aren't those figures measured by the server list? |
| 08:58 |
asl |
unless it's client side ping |
| 08:58 |
sapier |
now how is server list supposed to do? |
| 08:59 |
VanessaE |
sapier: the same way a client does? connect to a server, get basic stats, measure ping/lag, disconnect? |
| 08:59 |
VanessaE |
well I suppose not. |
| 08:59 |
sapier |
no |
| 08:59 |
sapier |
server tells serverlist |
| 08:59 |
VanessaE |
the servers have to broadcast that data I guess |
| 08:59 |
sapier |
and server can tell anything |
| 08:59 |
VanessaE |
well going by just the number of players is a recipe for failure |
| 08:59 |
VanessaE |
and it has been failing. miserably. |
| 09:00 |
sapier |
as anything else will fail |
| 09:01 |
sapier |
thus we'd do work for what benefit? |
| 09:01 |
VanessaE |
lemme put it this way: if redcrab's server were in this list, it would be near the bottom because few people play on it now. If it were properly weighted, it should be at the top. It's one of the best servers in the community, you know that and I know that. |
| 09:02 |
sapier |
someone could implement it's own server list and do user voting |
| 09:02 |
VanessaE |
what good would that do? |
| 09:02 |
VanessaE |
no one would see it. |
| 09:03 |
sapier |
you can specify a different server list |
| 09:03 |
VanessaE |
server owners and users won't do that and you know it. |
| 09:03 |
VanessaE |
the point is to get a fair weighting on the servers in the list so that everyone gets a chance to be seen and get some usage out of their servers. |
| 09:04 |
Eater4 |
I think it should mesure all of the componets that we talked about and avarage that out on a daily basis |
| 09:05 |
VanessaE |
there are 40 servers in the list. users only see the top 6. |
| 09:05 |
VanessaE |
that means there are 34 they will never see. |
| 09:05 |
VanessaE |
ever. |
| 09:05 |
VanessaE |
because users don't like to scroll. |
| 09:05 |
VanessaE |
for reasons I do not understand, users don't seem to figure out this concept of the scroll bar. |
| 09:05 |
Eater4 |
Because, this is the thing that minetest is WAY diffrent than Minecraft |
| 09:06 |
VanessaE |
that means we need to give servers a fair chance of getting into those critical 6 places in the list. |
| 09:06 |
sapier |
I understand your intention VanessaE and I'm fully compliant, I just don't se a way to implement it in a way it's not easy to manipulate it |
| 09:06 |
proller |
VanessaE, if he hardcode all your 7 servers to top - one always will be with 0 users |
| 09:07 |
sapier |
proller I know it's not your way of doingt things but could you please start to be constructive ? |
| 09:07 |
proller |
okay. |
| 09:07 |
VanessaE |
sapier: then we just have to deal with having a formula that's easy to manipulate and do what's been done in the past: blacklist servers that attempt to manipulate their numbers. |
| 09:07 |
proller |
lets sell first 6 vip places |
| 09:07 |
proller |
1 place - 100$/month |
| 09:07 |
kaeza |
... |
| 09:07 |
VanessaE |
*facepalm* |
| 09:07 |
proller |
paypal: plroler gmail.com |
| 09:07 |
Eater4 |
WHAAT! |
| 09:07 |
kaeza |
why are you even here? |
| 09:08 |
sapier |
if you use values like ping and lag, it's way more difficult to find out someone is cheating |
| 09:08 |
proller |
but better to implement auction system |
| 09:08 |
sapier |
e.g. a server telling 20% less lag as really mesured with some minimum value |
| 09:09 |
VanessaE |
sapier: this is true, which is why those numbers would have to be weighted as well. |
| 09:09 |
VanessaE |
of course it becomes an arms race, but in the end ping and lag could be made to have only a small influence on the ranking. |
| 09:09 |
Eater4 |
Wait |
| 09:09 |
VanessaE |
maybe cap them above/below some arbitrary amount> |
| 09:10 |
Eater4 |
Selling the places is really stupid |
| 09:11 |
VanessaE |
Eater4: he's being sarcastic. |
| 09:11 |
Eater4 |
Hm...ok looks like it is time for me to go to bed |
| 09:13 |
VanessaE |
proller: I'm just trying to make it more fair for everyone. I don't understand why you have to be so snotty about it. |
| 09:15 |
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| 09:15 |
VanessaE |
one of the false positives in player counts, also, is "Guestxxxx". If you *must* include the number of players in the ranking, the count should not include any names containing "admin", "test", "guest", etc. |
| 09:18 |
sapier |
we don't know about this |
| 09:19 |
VanessaE |
yes we do. |
| 09:19 |
VanessaE |
look at the master server list. |
| 09:19 |
sapier |
you wanna tell me servers send out all their playernames? |
| 09:19 |
VanessaE |
most of them already do. |
| 09:19 |
VanessaE |
the top server in the list has 11 guests and 23 total users. |
| 09:20 |
VanessaE |
mouse over the "23/25" |
| 09:20 |
VanessaE |
http://servers.minetest.net/ |
| 09:20 |
sapier |
ahh we're talking about the current players |
| 09:20 |
VanessaE |
yes |
| 09:20 |
VanessaE |
just whatever the servers are announcing with |
| 09:20 |
sapier |
still I don't believe the benefit is in any relation to the work and trouble this will cause |
| 09:22 |
jin_xi |
cant there be 'server list tabs' sorting by #players, lag or community ranking, ping, lexicographical whatever |
| 09:23 |
jin_xi |
no function will ever find best servers reasonably |
| 09:24 |
VanessaE |
jin_xi: no formula can ever find the absolute best, no, but I'm trying to propose something that would be used as the default ranking/sort method. |
| 09:24 |
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| 09:24 |
VanessaE |
other ways to sort could still be offered. |
| 09:25 |
VanessaE |
sapier: I guess it just depends on whether a person considers it important. |
| 09:25 |
VanessaE |
but to the average user, minetest only has 6 public servers. |
| 09:25 |
VanessaE |
because users for some reason, can't seem to figure out how to scroll. |
| 09:27 |
jin_xi |
make scroll arrow big and red? |
| 09:28 |
VanessaE |
won't help. |
| 09:28 |
Eater4 |
Oh I know |
| 09:29 |
Eater4 |
Make the list smaller |
| 09:29 |
Eater4 |
So more servers can be seen |
| 09:29 |
jin_xi |
or shuffle them everytime so you get a chance to see them all eventually |
| 09:30 |
VanessaE |
Eater4: how would that help? |
| 09:30 |
VanessaE |
jin_xi: well that would help to some degree. |
| 09:31 |
Eater4 |
So you can see more servers, there fore there is a more likeyhood that you would see more than six |
| 09:31 |
VanessaE |
if the list is "smaller" what happens to the servers that didn't make the list? |
| 09:32 |
Eater4 |
I mean Not smaller |
| 09:32 |
VanessaE |
well if you make the viewport bigger, you need screenspace to do it. |
| 09:32 |
VanessaE |
it's already limited on PCs, and it's at a premium on a tablet |
| 09:32 |
VanessaE |
so that's not happening. |
| 09:33 |
Eater4 |
Hm |
| 09:36 |
sapier |
while I'm generally positive about using "recent" science discoverys to improve our usability I wonder if this is a really important issue ;-) ... btw mainmenu is lua, any modder should be able to improve it |
| 09:36 |
sfan5 |
>btw mainmenu is lua |
| 09:37 |
sfan5 |
> any modder should be able to improve it |
| 09:37 |
sfan5 |
the problem are formspecs |
| 09:37 |
sfan5 |
they are awful |
| 09:37 |
sapier |
I wont discuss that issue again ;-P |
| 09:38 |
sfan5 |
there is no need for discussion |
| 09:38 |
sapier |
at least not now ... maybe in about half a year ... or in unlikely case someone comes up with a fully implemented full featured replacemend ;-) |
| 09:38 |
sfan5 |
formspecs ARE awful |
| 09:38 |
sapier |
including compatibility code of course ;-) |
| 09:40 |
sapier |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1371 I don't know why there was used getBlockNoCreateNoEx(p) just to throw an assertion if this resulted in not getting that block ... that's pointless |
| 09:41 |
sapier |
and of course noone uses the MapBlock passed back by that function so why is it passed? |
| 09:55 |
jin_xi |
well, double click on scroll arrow starts connecting, which is not what i want. |
| 09:56 |
jin_xi |
doubleclick outside of ingame volume control does not exit the menu if it matters |
| 09:57 |
sapier |
first one has been this way before too |
| 09:58 |
sapier |
later one is relic of volume control still being a non formspec menu |
| 09:58 |
sapier |
guess that should be fixed by some time |
| 09:58 |
jin_xi |
i just bring it up because of previous users cant seem to scroll comment |
| 09:59 |
VanessaE |
jin_xi: you're not a user. you're a geek :) |
| 09:59 |
jin_xi |
idk, but i hardly ever connect to servers anyways |
| 09:59 |
sapier |
the volume control menu is an open issue on android |
| 10:12 |
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| 14:27 |
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| 14:48 |
nore |
"16:47:17: ERROR[main]: ServerError: error in error handling" <-- eh.. what? |
| 14:51 |
sfan5 |
seems like this comes from Lua: |
| 14:51 |
sfan5 |
./lua/src/ldo.c:58: setsvalue2s(L, oldtop, luaS_newliteral(L, "error in error handling")); |
| 14:53 |
sfan5 |
can only happen in a few cases: |
| 14:53 |
sfan5 |
./lua/src/ldo.c:171: luaD_throw(L, LUA_ERRERR); |
| 14:53 |
sfan5 |
./lua/src/ldo.c:374: luaD_throw(L, LUA_ERRERR); /* error while handing stack error */ |
| 14:53 |
sfan5 |
./lua/src/ldebug.c:621: if (!ttisfunction(errfunc)) luaD_throw(L, LUA_ERRERR); |
| 14:55 |
nore |
I guess what happened was minetest.after(0, <not a function>) |
| 14:55 |
nore |
so there is a problem there |
| 14:55 |
sfan5 |
doesn't it check for that? |
| 14:56 |
nore |
it does... perhaps it was the assert that crashed |
| 14:57 |
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| 14:57 |
sfan5 |
o.O |
| 14:59 |
ShadowNinja |
I did rewrite the serverlist in PHP, but it's unfinished. |
| 15:00 |
sfan5 |
>PHP |
| 15:00 |
sfan5 |
pls |
| 15:00 |
sfan5 |
use a decent programming language |
| 15:00 |
sfan5 |
like Python or Ruby |
| 15:00 |
ShadowNinja |
And that error should only happen if you didn't pass a proper error handle to lua_pcall(), xpcall(), or it otherwise broke internally. |
| 15:00 |
ShadowNinja |
sfan5: Those are harder to set up for web usage. |
| 15:01 |
Megaf |
or pure HTML 4 |
| 15:01 |
PenguinDad |
Megaf: why not HTML 5? |
| 15:01 |
Megaf |
pure HTML 4 with a frame that shows a txt file |
| 15:01 |
Megaf |
lightweight and works on everything |
| 15:02 |
ShadowNinja |
Megaf: No, that won't work. It has to receive JSON data, decode it, proccess it, and store it in a file on the server. |
| 15:02 |
sfan5 |
ShadowNinja: be prepared to get hit by any of these http://me.veekun.com/blog/2012/04/09/php-a-fractal-of-bad-design/ |
| 15:02 |
Megaf |
PenguinDad; if you can write HTML5 without JavaScript... |
| 15:02 |
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| 15:02 |
Megaf |
ShadowNinja; yep, there shold be another program or daemon getting the data and writing to a txt file, |
| 15:02 |
Megaf |
and html 4 would show that file |
| 15:03 |
Megaf |
IMHO the server list should be as light as possible |
| 15:04 |
Megaf |
and simple as possible |
| 15:04 |
Megaf |
then it would be easy to anything read from it |
| 15:05 |
sfan5 |
it is already simple |
| 15:06 |
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| 15:06 |
sfan5 |
dl http://servers.minetest.net/list and parse it as JSON |
| 15:06 |
Megaf |
so, what change it? |
| 15:06 |
Megaf |
why* |
| 15:07 |
Megaf |
And can't we get rid of JSON? |
| 15:07 |
sfan5 |
why? |
| 15:07 |
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| 15:07 |
sfan5 |
almost nobody can read perl |
| 15:07 |
Megaf |
because JavaScript |
| 15:07 |
PenguinDad |
Megaf: what would you use instead? |
| 15:07 |
sfan5 |
what does JSON have to do with JavaScript? |
| 15:08 |
Megaf |
I don't know, I don't know how that works at the moment |
| 15:08 |
Megaf |
I would use simple and standard xml, html 4 and all plain text |
| 15:08 |
sfan5 |
XML |
| 15:08 |
Megaf |
sfan5; The text inside :P |
| 15:08 |
sfan5 |
fucking XML |
| 15:08 |
Megaf |
why? |
| 15:08 |
Megaf |
It works and it's simple |
| 15:08 |
sfan5 |
XML is not readable |
| 15:09 |
sfan5 |
Did you just really say XML is simple? |
| 15:09 |
Megaf |
I depends on how you write it |
| 15:09 |
sfan5 |
no it does not |
| 15:09 |
Megaf |
well, I like the way it is now |
| 15:09 |
sfan5 |
JSON is always simpler than XML |
| 15:09 |
Megaf |
I'm not really familiar with JSON actually |
| 15:10 |
sfan5 |
is the XML spec as short as the JSON one? http://json.org/ |
| 15:10 |
sfan5 |
the images with the green boxes _completly_ describe JSON |
| 15:10 |
sfan5 |
this is what simplicity is |
| 15:10 |
sfan5 |
XML is anything but simple |
| 15:11 |
LemonLake |
+sfan5 |
| 15:12 |
Megaf |
Right, I'm wrong about XML |
| 15:36 |
sapier |
wasn't javascript the reason why json was invented? |
| 15:39 |
sapier |
any additional comments to https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1309? |
| 15:40 |
sapier |
if not I'm gonna merge it soon |
| 15:41 |
sapier |
same for https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1371 |
| 15:41 |
sapier |
and https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1372 |
| 15:44 |
proller |
js stolen data format from perl {'a'=>1, 2=>[3,4,'five']} |
| 15:47 |
proller |
today dice shows to use )\n{ |
| 15:50 |
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| 15:54 |
hmmmm |
[11:08 AM] <Megaf> I would use simple and standard xml, html 4 and all plain text |
| 15:54 |
hmmmm |
no. |
| 15:54 |
hmmmm |
XML is *NOT* simple. |
| 15:54 |
hmmmm |
the standard is actually very overcomplicated, making it just about impossible to parse or build without a third party library. |
| 15:54 |
sapier |
hmmmm do you really believe that discussion will end anytime? |
| 15:55 |
sapier |
:-) |
| 15:56 |
hmmmm |
sapier: probably not, but minetest SHALL NEVER need to use a third party library to achieve some task as mundane as data serialization |
| 15:56 |
hmmmm |
I think we already have way too many dependencies the way it is |
| 15:57 |
sapier |
you know we use json lib too? ;-) ... true it's quite lightweight |
| 15:57 |
hmmmm |
I don't like it though |
| 15:58 |
sapier |
I don't take part at that discussion, imho we have within minetest what we need if someone wants something new he's got to provide very very good reason why this can't be done with what we already have |
| 15:59 |
hmmmm |
yes |
| 15:59 |
hmmmm |
it's just that every time I see these sorts of discussion on #minetest-dev it scares me, because I'm not around hardly ever anymore and I don't want the project to become overrun with horrible design decisions |
| 16:00 |
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| 16:00 |
sapier |
I usually try to stop commits adding x-th way to do same thing but I don't always suceed ... see redis |
| 16:01 |
sapier |
at least it's some completely different style of db ... and db interface is quite clean so adding and removing has almost no sideeffects |
| 16:02 |
sapier |
talking about design decisions what about https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1364 ? |
| 16:03 |
sapier |
removes some reimplemented irrlicht gui element which doesn't compile on irrlicht 1.9 |
| 16:03 |
hmmmm |
i'm all for removing things that aren't used |
| 16:04 |
sapier |
as of comment it's used for some hack ... I haven't found a way to trigger it |
| 16:04 |
hmmmm |
however I think the reason that's there is due to Irrlicht brain damage and something wouldn't work unless it were basically reimplemented from scratch with the needed modifications |
| 16:04 |
hmmmm |
absolutely ridiculous |
| 16:04 |
sapier |
and the thing done by the hack is implemented in a way more clean way |
| 16:05 |
sapier |
the only thing I can imagine is there might be quite old worlds out where that one was used |
| 16:05 |
sapier |
but I don't know if it'S 2 or 4 years back |
| 16:23 |
sfan5 |
sapier: "Shouldn't the dirt texture get moved to textures/base/pack/ to make it not depend on a minimal game being available?" you did not reply to that yet |
| 16:25 |
sapier |
because I moved it |
| 16:27 |
sfan5 |
I see |
| 16:28 |
sapier |
actually I added same one again to base as I can't remove it from minimal |
| 16:28 |
sapier |
as it's a 16x16 texture that's not a big deal |
| 16:38 |
jin_xi |
so, i've been looking at the particle situation. irrlicht particles look nice for classic particle effects, but cannot do the physics which current node digging particles need |
| 16:40 |
jin_xi |
so we could add/use a particle engine lib like sparkengine or combine a physics engine for node fragments and such and use irrlichts particles for smoke etc |
| 16:41 |
jin_xi |
or just fix the wtf code for current particles and be done with it |
| 16:51 |
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| 18:21 |
Megaf |
Ok, I'm downloading the Android SDK and will make builds of Minetest for Android |
| 18:23 |
Megaf |
will we use the same name for the Android version? |
| 18:23 |
sfan5 |
why would we not? |
| 18:27 |
Megaf |
well, MC did the Pocket Edtion |
| 18:27 |
Megaf |
Maybe Minetest Mobile Edition or Minetest Mobile |
| 18:27 |
sfan5 |
it's not a pocket edition |
| 18:27 |
sfan5 |
it is the full featured client |
| 18:27 |
sfan5 |
it does not need a name change |
| 18:27 |
Megaf |
indeed |
| 18:29 |
Megaf |
well, my build will run on ARMv6, ARMv7, x86, x64 and maybe ARMv8 (64 bit) |
| 18:29 |
sfan5 |
I don't think android supports arm64 yet |
| 18:29 |
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| 18:30 |
Megaf |
It does |
| 18:30 |
Megaf |
the latest one does |
| 18:30 |
sfan5 |
[citation needed]} |
| 18:30 |
sfan5 |
s/}// |
| 18:30 |
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| 18:30 |
Megaf |
by Meaf |
| 18:30 |
Megaf |
Megaf* |
| 18:30 |
Megaf |
lol |
| 18:30 |
Megaf |
let me see the official doc |
| 18:32 |
Megaf |
sfan5; wow, there's no support from Android to ARMv8 |
| 18:33 |
sfan5 |
what did I say? >.> |
| 18:33 |
Megaf |
ok |
| 18:33 |
Megaf |
well, my build will run on ARMv6, ARMv7, x86, x64 and not ARMv8 |
| 18:33 |
Megaf |
>P |
| 18:34 |
Megaf |
sfan5; I see my mistake, there's a number of Linux distros that supports ARMv8 and iOS 7 supports iOSv8 already too |
| 18:35 |
Megaf |
citation = http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel/1367774/focus=1367868 |
| 18:36 |
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| 18:37 |
Megaf |
now, what Android versions should I support? |
| 18:37 |
Megaf |
I think from 2.1+ ? |
| 18:37 |
sapier1 |
2.3+ |
| 18:37 |
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| 18:37 |
Megaf |
ok |
| 18:37 |
sfan5 |
you can't support 2.1 |
| 18:37 |
sfan5 |
it does not have android_native_app_glue |
| 18:38 |
sapier1 |
we could write it outselfs but as long as noone has a device fast enough to be capable of running mt I see no use in spending that time |
| 18:49 |
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| 18:53 |
sapier1 |
merging rebased #1309 once travis build is complete |
| 19:01 |
Megaf |
hm, eclipse will never load here |
| 19:05 |
Eater4 |
Megaf? |
| 19:10 |
Megaf |
I'm trying to run Eclipse from Android Developer Tools, it shows the splash screen, then asks about the workspace, then I select one and then it show the splash screen again "Loading orc.eclipse.help" and stays there. |
| 19:12 |
sapier1 |
pushing now |
| 19:12 |
Megaf |
gonna try with Java from Oracle |
| 19:21 |
sapier1 |
I'm gonna merge #1372 soon |
| 19:29 |
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| 19:37 |
Megaf |
Ok, ADT doesnt work here sapier1 =/ |
| 19:37 |
sapier1 |
there are plenty of different reasons for this ... you know you need adt AND ndk? |
| 19:38 |
Megaf |
Yep, I dont the bundle |
| 19:38 |
Megaf |
It used to work on Debian Wheezy, Now I upgrade to Debian Jessey and it doesnt work anymore |
| 19:39 |
sapier1 |
hmm I'm on wheezy |
| 19:39 |
sapier1 |
pushing #1372 now |
| 19:46 |
Megaf |
Wheres the bot that used to say github links to issues we wrote here? |
| 19:46 |
sapier1 |
ShadowNinja just because you label a regression to "not a bug" it still is a bug |
| 19:50 |
Megaf |
sapier1; Eclipse from Debian works fine |
| 19:50 |
sapier1 |
maybe google did some strange patches |
| 19:54 |
Megaf |
I wonder if I can use normal eclipse |
| 19:54 |
sapier1 |
you don't need eclipse to build |
| 19:55 |
sapier1 |
who feels responsible for redis? |
| 19:58 |
Taoki |
So I'm experimenting with workbenches again. I must say, the node inventory lag even in singleplayer is really visible, for both a workbench and chest or furnace. |
| 19:58 |
Taoki |
Can't anything be done to predict it locally? |
| 19:59 |
sapier1 |
not without major changes |
| 19:59 |
Taoki |
Like modify the menu / formspec code that handles inventory lists, to show an item as having been moved before th server reports that |
| 19:59 |
Taoki |
Ok... that's strange as it would sound pretty easy |
| 19:59 |
Taoki |
It's just a local visual effect to remove the feeling of lag |
| 20:00 |
sapier1 |
only if you don't consider that a move may be prohibited |
| 20:00 |
Taoki |
Can't the client know that when the formspec is initially notified to it? |
| 20:00 |
sapier1 |
at this time it's far from sure that this move will be allowed |
| 20:01 |
sapier1 |
if we display it we'll never get told that it didn't actually happen |
| 20:01 |
Taoki |
Yes, but IMO that's far better than seeing this horrible lag in chests and all |
| 20:01 |
sapier1 |
no that's not |
| 20:01 |
Taoki |
There can be a client setting for it, if anyone's unsure |
| 20:01 |
sapier1 |
one is lag other is inconsistent messed up inventory |
| 20:02 |
sapier1 |
client will NEVER get told about the correct locations later |
| 20:03 |
Taoki |
It can get told when the server tells it, like it happens currently. Just that the visual effect of item movement is also applied locally before that |
| 20:03 |
Taoki |
And updated when it's told, in case something changes then |
| 20:03 |
sapier1 |
server does only update inventorys if things changed |
| 20:03 |
sapier1 |
if you do modify your local representation of the inventory you wont get back in sync to server |
| 20:04 |
Taoki |
yeah, but if you do a change locally that's sent to the server automatically |
| 20:04 |
sapier1 |
server is the one to decide not your local client |
| 20:04 |
Taoki |
Also, if the local representation is also updated again when the server notifies it, alongside local effect, that can reduce any out of sync problem |
| 20:04 |
Taoki |
True. But that's prediction |
| 20:04 |
sapier1 |
server won't update it |
| 20:04 |
Taoki |
Same with movement prediction in some games |
| 20:05 |
sapier1 |
no not same |
| 20:05 |
sapier1 |
it's scriptable if some move is allowed or not thus prediction isn't possible without client side lua |
| 20:05 |
kahrl |
sapier1: how about: if the server doesn't update the inventory within X seconds after your request, revert to the last state sent by the server |
| 20:06 |
kahrl |
see also: client.cpp:711 |
| 20:06 |
Taoki |
kahrl: X seconds means lag. The idea is for item changes to be represented instantly |
| 20:06 |
sapier1 |
that'd ne the way to go for client side lua too but any at least somehow generic solution would be quite some work |
| 20:06 |
kahrl |
Taoki: yeah. Change the local inventory instantly, but revert to the authoritative state if it turns out the server doesn't update |
| 20:06 |
Taoki |
kahrl: Exactly |
| 20:07 |
Taoki |
That's what I meant. Can't fully get why that's not possible |
| 20:07 |
kahrl |
(either because of extreme lag or because the move was prohibited) |
| 20:07 |
sapier1 |
you'd remove network lag but add permission lag |
| 20:08 |
Taoki |
Permission lag ia s lot more rare however |
| 20:08 |
sapier1 |
no matter how fast your connection is, if some move is prohibited client will realize at best after X seconds |
| 20:08 |
sapier1 |
but it's a permanent fixed lag |
| 20:08 |
kahrl |
sapier1: we could change the server to always send the inventory if a move was prohibited |
| 20:08 |
kahrl |
so this lag only occurs with new client -> old server |
| 20:08 |
Taoki |
sapier1: Yeah, but currently it does that for everything else |
| 20:08 |
sapier1 |
hmm yes that'd be a way to go |
| 20:09 |
Taoki |
IMO it's far better to have lag in a rare circumstance (like prohibited move) rather than the most frequent circumstance (every move) |
| 20:09 |
sapier1 |
no it's not taoki |
| 20:10 |
sapier1 |
if there's lag user expects it because it's always there, having some random huge lag on a few situations causes way more confusion |
| 20:10 |
sapier1 |
yet kahrls suggestions make sense, at least if there's someone to implement it, I'm still busy with android port |
| 20:11 |
Taoki |
sapier1: There are two solutions at least: 1 - Have the client know which inventories in a formspec hae permissions to put items in then, or 2 - Make this a setting turned off by default, so only weirdos like me can enable it :P |
| 20:11 |
sapier1 |
and this is not a fix for crafting lag |
| 20:11 |
Taoki |
Yeah, that's a fix too |
| 20:11 |
sapier1 |
no that's not |
| 20:11 |
sapier1 |
for crafting we'd need to tell clients about craft recieps too which isn't done by now |
| 20:12 |
Taoki |
yes, seeing the craft result update would remain slow. But that's more acceptable |
| 20:12 |
sapier1 |
write a feature request or implement it yourself ;-) or persuade someone to do it for you ;-) |
| 20:12 |
* Taoki |
nods, will do |
| 20:17 |
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| 20:29 |
sapier1 |
anyone to comment #1371? |
| 20:30 |
sapier1 |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1371 |
| 20:37 |
sfan5 |
sapier1: looks good |
| 20:39 |
VanessaE |
sapier1: *reading some of the backlog* what exactly stops us from sending the crafting recipes to the clients? aside from this needing a protocol bump I mean? |
| 20:41 |
sapier1 |
I didn't say we can't do it it's just some work to be done |
| 20:41 |
VanessaE |
ok. |
| 20:42 |
VanessaE |
just that the previous conversation clearly shows a strong resistance to client-side prediction of crafting, and seeing as how that ^^^ is the only sane way to do it... :) |
| 20:42 |
* VanessaE |
hopes taoki takes your second idea and just codes it :P |
| 20:43 |
sapier1 |
ok that's not what I wanted to tell, I'm only reluctant to do this myself ... especially as last big thing is far from finished ;-) |
| 20:43 |
VanessaE |
(as you and I both know, feature requests around here tend to be ignored, in favor of "code it yourself", and finding others to do the work tens to be...difficult) |
| 20:43 |
Taoki |
VanessaE: Predicting crafting results would actually be hard, since they're a server function and the client couldn't know how it's used |
| 20:43 |
Taoki |
Predicting movement of inventory items however would be easy to add |
| 20:44 |
VanessaE |
Taoki: right, hence the client has to execute the same code the server would execute when conducting the craft. |
| 20:44 |
sapier1 |
my guess it's gonna be done together with client side lua |
| 20:44 |
VanessaE |
that means iterating through the cookbook. |
| 20:44 |
* Taoki |
isn't fully sure about client-side Lua at this day, and how worth it it is |
| 20:44 |
Taoki |
Though it could help with such stuff i guess |
| 20:45 |
sapier1 |
for this special case it's not absolutely required |
| 20:45 |
sapier1 |
maybe it's even of almost no use ;-) except of the permission things |
| 20:53 |
Krock |
Just a little thing: I edited the font-image "fontlucida.png", so the special chars are better readable. Would this one ( http://imgur.com/xiCPGfT ) look better than the original? |
| 20:55 |
VanessaE |
Krock: no one uses that font anymore. use freetype. |
| 20:55 |
Krock |
VanessaE, for the case _if_ freetype isn't used |
| 20:55 |
sapier1 |
still if it is better I see no reason not to add it |
| 20:55 |
VanessaE |
(besides, if freetype isn't used, use my better fonts) |
| 20:56 |
kaeza |
Krock, how do they look in-game? |
| 20:56 |
VanessaE |
https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?id=4436 |
| 20:56 |
sapier1 |
isn't your font bigger then original one vanessae? |
| 20:56 |
kaeza |
as in, actual usage |
| 20:56 |
VanessaE |
sapier1: yep. because the default 2point font sucks :P |
| 20:57 |
sapier1 |
well that's a point of discussion speaking for Krock's ;-) |
| 20:57 |
VanessaE |
saqpso why not include mine as an option? |
| 20:57 |
VanessaE |
sapier1* |
| 20:57 |
Krock |
kaeza, it's just btter readable because it's whiter and some transpareny gotremoved |
| 20:57 |
VanessaE |
as well as using Krock's |
| 20:59 |
sapier1 |
well I prefere freetype too maybe we should make some example screenshots |
| 21:12 |
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| 21:41 |
kaeza |
an user on ##minetest-es is having this issue: http://i.imgur.com/KvRui75.png |
| 21:42 |
kaeza |
I recommended to update to latest git, but problem still persists |
| 21:42 |
Taoki |
kaeza: Is that my workbench mod? I see a 2x2 grid so just asking. |
| 21:42 |
Taoki |
Though it doesn't look related |
| 21:43 |
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| 21:50 |
kaeza |
on a related note, this user seems to be trying to run it on a P4 with 448M of RAM (and from the screenshot, Win XP) :S |
| 21:51 |
VanessaE |
that's winXP? |
| 21:51 |
VanessaE |
looks more like 2K |
| 21:51 |
kaeza |
could be *checks* |
| 21:51 |
kaeza |
yep :S |
| 21:51 |
VanessaE |
note the minetest version displayed - did they actually update? |
| 21:53 |
kaeza |
that's an old screenshot; he already downloaded http://sfan5.pf-control.de/minetest-builds/minetest/minetest-0.4.9-9675d9e-win32.7z (which I don't think it's exactly latest git, but way newer than 0.4.8 or 0.4.9), but reports that the problem persists |
| 21:53 |
VanessaE |
the displayed inventory MIGHT be realtest |
| 21:53 |
sfan5 |
using direct3d9 might hel |
| 21:53 |
VanessaE |
it has an inventory similar to that I think |
| 21:53 |
sfan5 |
p |
| 21:53 |
sfan5 |
but only my 64bit builds have that |
| 22:08 |
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| 22:09 |
kaeza |
I guess he'll have to get a better comp :/ |
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