Time  Nick        Message
00:16 sapier      would it be difficult to enable tables in forum?
06:18 Eater4      celeron55: have you (are anyone who runs the serverlist) decide to extend the max servers to a higher number?
06:45 celeron55   Eater4: i have nothing to do with the list
06:45 celeron55   xyz hosts it, proller has implemented the server side and sapier probably knows most about the client side
06:46 Eater4      oh ok
06:49 VanessaE    kaeza and I and a couple others discussed the idea earlier of getting someone (read: not us because we have no access and no skill in this field) to implement a weighted sorting method into the list, both on the website and in the client, based on four factors:  uptime, lag, some sort of community upvoting, and some kind of alpha sorting (maybe by domain or so).
06:50 VanessaE    as it stands now it is incredibly unfair to the less-popular servers to be left to flounder in the backwaters of the bottom of the list just because they have few users.
06:53 celeron55   lag is a bit troublesome
06:53 VanessaE    yeah I know
06:53 VanessaE    it's based out of Russia or something
06:54 celeron55   but voting and uptime would seem like something that people would find useful
06:54 celeron55   xyz hosts stuff in germany
06:54 VanessaE    oh, ok
06:54 celeron55   (lag is going to affect votes anyway)
06:54 VanessaE    not sure where I got the Russia bit from)
06:55 celeron55   well his main domain is minetest.ru
06:55 VanessaE    the alpha order factor is there for the idea that if num_votes * uptime is roughly equal among two or more servers, then they'll end up listed in alpha order (in theory)
06:56 VanessaE    right - I must still be stuck on the idea that he was hosting the list from some server over there then.  eh, no matter.
08:37 proller     Eater4, what extend??
08:38 Eater4      expand the max servers on the public server list and website
08:39 proller     VanessaE, all games sorts server list by player number, or have adjustable srting
08:39 VanessaE    proller: also, please read scrollback ... ok, you read it.
08:39 proller     Eater4, how to expand?
08:40 sapier      I don't know of any limitation to serverlist on client side
08:40 VanessaE    proller: as we lack any kind of adjustable sorting, we need at least a more fair way of balancing out "best" versus "most busy".  "most busy" often is not the best but merely "has the most people signing on and off all day long".
08:42 Eater4      http://minetest.net/servers
08:42 Eater4      See the servers? 40/45?
08:42 VanessaE    proller: that's why I suggested something that should roughly calculate out to a sort of a "best score"
08:42 VanessaE    Eater4: 45 is how many servers the list has seen since its last restart, I think
08:42 proller     Eater4, and what to expand?
08:42 VanessaE    not the max possible number
08:43 proller     45 - was maximum online in one time
08:43 Eater4      Really?
08:43 VanessaE    proller: I think he believes the list will hard-cut the number of entries at 45. :P
08:43 Eater4      I did not know, sorry
08:44 proller     703 - hacked player number, one bad man have hacked server with 500+x players online
08:44 VanessaE    proller: yeah, that should probably be reset, imho :)
08:45 VanessaE    and in fact that bad server is precisely why I left number-of-players out of my proposed "best score" idea :)
08:45 VanessaE    you can't hack uptime, ping, or lag, and users' votes would be somewhat difficult to bias as well.
08:46 proller     no, only ping fully masterserver-side
08:46 proller     others recieved
08:46 VanessaE    yep I know, but that's a variable I figure the master server could send to the clients as part of this proposed score
08:46 proller     VanessaE, an you find good score formula?
08:46 VanessaE    let the master server make these calculations server-side and just send the scores to the clients.
08:47 VanessaE    proller: I have been thinking about it.  the terms would be pretty simple, you know..  just this times that times the other thing.  no complicated algebra or anything
08:48 VanessaE    maybe votes*uptime/(lag*ping)
08:49 VanessaE    then scale the result to some reasonable range, e.g. 8 or 16 bit int
08:49 proller     most popular servers must be on first places
08:49 VanessaE    well votes would be weighted
08:50 VanessaE    so how about, ((votes*vote_weight*uptime)/(lag*ping))*scale_factor
08:50 sapier      I wonder if we have any chance to not get a manipulated automatic weighting
08:50 proller     you want implement vote system to pick up your average-0-players servers
08:50 VanessaE    the idea being that lag, ping, and uptime could drag a server down to the ground if it has few votes
08:50 proller     ?
08:51 VanessaE    proller: almost but not entirely unlike that, yeah :)
08:51 VanessaE    a good server has low ping times, low lag, a nice number of votes, and a reasonable uptime, yes?
08:51 VanessaE    with number of votes and lag/ping probably being the most important factors
08:51 proller     good server have most connected users.
08:52 VanessaE    not really
08:52 proller     ddo what you want.
08:52 VanessaE    look at that bad one that had 500+
08:52 proller     ask ShadowNinja to rewrite serve on php
08:52 proller     and hardcode your servers on first place
08:52 proller     bye
08:52 VanessaE    um
08:53 VanessaE    dude, that was uncalled for...
08:53 Eater4      VanessaE: take a look at isis >:(
08:53 VanessaE    my servers will still end up somewhere in the middle of the list regardless of the formula that's used
08:55 sapier      I'm not conviced trouble/use relation of this feature is worth the work, any algorithm we implement is easy to manipulate
08:56 asl         and ping isn't really fair
08:56 VanessaE    sapier: perhaps, but if the choice is between a formula that can be manipulated versus using a method that IS being manipulated?  I'd choose the formula.
08:57 VanessaE    asl: by itself, you're right.
08:57 sapier      ping is useless as having a good ping to server list doesn't tell anything
08:57 sapier      and pings told by server aren't relieable
08:57 VanessaE    ok so leave ping out and just use the lag value.
08:58 sapier      which isn't relieable too as anything told by server ... that's the 500+x issue
08:58 VanessaE    aren't those figures measured by the server list?
08:58 asl         unless it's client side ping
08:58 sapier      now how is server list supposed to do?
08:59 VanessaE    sapier: the same way a client does?  connect to a server, get basic stats, measure ping/lag, disconnect?
08:59 VanessaE    well I suppose not.
08:59 sapier      no
08:59 sapier      server tells serverlist
08:59 VanessaE    the servers have to broadcast that data I guess
08:59 sapier      and server can tell anything
08:59 VanessaE    well going by just the number of players is a recipe for failure
08:59 VanessaE    and it has been failing.  miserably.
09:00 sapier      as anything else will fail
09:01 sapier      thus we'd do work for what benefit?
09:01 VanessaE    lemme put it this way:  if redcrab's server were in this list, it would be near the bottom because few people play on it now.  If it were properly weighted, it should be at the top.  It's one of the best servers in the community, you know that and I know that.
09:02 sapier      someone could implement it's own server list and do user voting
09:02 VanessaE    what good would that do?
09:02 VanessaE    no one would see it.
09:03 sapier      you can specify a different server list
09:03 VanessaE    server owners and users won't do that and you know it.
09:03 VanessaE    the point is to get a fair weighting on the servers in the list so that everyone gets a chance to be seen and get some usage out of their servers.
09:04 Eater4      I think it should mesure all of the componets that we talked about and avarage that out on a daily basis
09:05 VanessaE    there are 40 servers in the list.  users only see the top 6.
09:05 VanessaE    that means there are 34 they will never see.
09:05 VanessaE    ever.
09:05 VanessaE    because users don't like to scroll.
09:05 VanessaE    for reasons I do not understand, users don't seem to figure out this concept of the scroll bar.
09:05 Eater4      Because, this is the thing that minetest is WAY diffrent than Minecraft
09:06 VanessaE    that means we need to give servers a fair chance of getting into those critical 6 places in the list.
09:06 sapier      I understand your intention VanessaE and I'm fully compliant, I just don't se a way to implement it in a way it's not easy to manipulate it
09:06 proller     VanessaE, if he hardcode all your 7 servers to top - one always will be with 0 users
09:07 sapier      proller I know it's not your way of doingt things but could you please start to be constructive ?
09:07 proller     okay.
09:07 VanessaE    sapier: then we just have to deal with having a formula that's easy to manipulate and do what's been done in the past:  blacklist servers that attempt to manipulate their numbers.
09:07 proller     lets sell first 6 vip places
09:07 proller     1 place - 100$/month
09:07 kaeza       ...
09:07 VanessaE    *facepalm*
09:07 proller     paypal: plroler@gmail.com
09:07 Eater4      WHAAT!
09:07 kaeza       why are you even here?
09:08 sapier      if you use values like ping and lag, it's way more difficult to find out someone is cheating
09:08 proller     but better to implement auction system
09:08 sapier      e.g. a server telling 20% less lag as really mesured with some minimum value
09:09 VanessaE    sapier: this is true, which is why those numbers would have to be weighted as well.
09:09 VanessaE    of course it becomes an arms race, but in the end ping and lag could be made to have only a small influence on the ranking.
09:09 Eater4      Wait
09:09 VanessaE    maybe cap them above/below some arbitrary amount>
09:10 Eater4      Selling the places is really stupid
09:11 VanessaE    Eater4: he's being sarcastic.
09:11 Eater4      Hm...ok looks like it is time for me to go to bed
09:13 VanessaE    proller: I'm just trying to make it more fair for everyone.  I don't understand why you have to be so snotty about it.
09:15 VanessaE    one of the false positives in player counts, also, is "Guestxxxx".  If you *must* include the number of players in the ranking, the count should not include any names containing "admin", "test", "guest", etc.
09:18 sapier      we don't know about this
09:19 VanessaE    yes we do.
09:19 VanessaE    look at the master server list.
09:19 sapier      you wanna tell me servers send out all their playernames?
09:19 VanessaE    most of them already do.
09:19 VanessaE    the top server in the list has 11 guests and 23 total users.
09:20 VanessaE    mouse over the "23/25"
09:20 VanessaE    http://servers.minetest.net/
09:20 sapier      ahh we're talking about the current players
09:20 VanessaE    yes
09:20 VanessaE    just whatever the servers are announcing with
09:20 sapier      still I don't believe the benefit is in any relation to the work and trouble this will cause
09:22 jin_xi      cant there be 'server list tabs' sorting by #players, lag or community ranking, ping, lexicographical whatever
09:23 jin_xi      no function will ever find best servers reasonably
09:24 VanessaE    jin_xi: no formula can ever find the absolute best, no, but I'm trying to propose something that would be used as the default ranking/sort method.
09:24 VanessaE    other ways to sort could still be offered.
09:25 VanessaE    sapier: I guess it just depends on whether a person considers it important.
09:25 VanessaE    but to the average user, minetest only has 6 public servers.
09:25 VanessaE    because users for some reason, can't seem to figure out how to scroll.
09:27 jin_xi      make scroll arrow big and red?
09:28 VanessaE    won't help.
09:28 Eater4      Oh I know
09:29 Eater4      Make the list smaller
09:29 Eater4      So more servers can be seen
09:29 jin_xi      or shuffle them everytime so you get a chance to see them all eventually
09:30 VanessaE    Eater4: how would that help?
09:30 VanessaE    jin_xi: well that would help to some degree.
09:31 Eater4      So you can see more servers, there fore there is a more likeyhood that you would see more than six
09:31 VanessaE    if the list is "smaller" what happens to the servers that didn't make the list?
09:32 Eater4      I mean Not smaller
09:32 VanessaE    well if you make the viewport bigger, you need screenspace to do it.
09:32 VanessaE    it's already limited on PCs, and it's at a premium on a tablet
09:32 VanessaE    so that's not happening.
09:33 Eater4      Hm
09:36 sapier      while I'm generally positive about using "recent" science discoverys to improve our usability I wonder if this is a really important issue ;-) ... btw mainmenu is lua, any modder should be able to improve it
09:36 sfan5       >btw mainmenu is lua
09:37 sfan5       > any modder should be able to improve it
09:37 sfan5       the problem are formspecs
09:37 sfan5       they are awful
09:37 sapier      I wont discuss that issue again ;-P
09:38 sfan5       there is no need for discussion
09:38 sapier      at least not now ... maybe in about half a year ... or in unlikely case someone comes up with a fully implemented full featured replacemend ;-)
09:38 sfan5       formspecs ARE awful
09:38 sapier      including compatibility code of course ;-)
09:40 sapier      https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1371 I don't know why there was used getBlockNoCreateNoEx(p) just to throw an assertion if this resulted in not getting that block ... that's pointless
09:41 sapier      and of course noone uses the MapBlock passed back by that function so why is it passed?
09:55 jin_xi      well, double click on scroll arrow starts connecting, which is not what i want.
09:56 jin_xi      doubleclick outside of ingame volume control does not exit the menu if it matters
09:57 sapier      first one has been this way before too
09:58 sapier      later one is relic of volume control still being a non formspec menu
09:58 sapier      guess that should be fixed by some time
09:58 jin_xi      i just bring it up because of previous users cant seem to scroll comment
09:59 VanessaE    jin_xi: you're not a user.  you're a geek :)
09:59 jin_xi      idk, but i hardly ever connect to servers anyways
09:59 sapier      the volume control menu is an open issue on android
14:48 nore        "16:47:17: ERROR[main]: ServerError: error in error handling" <-- eh.. what?
14:51 sfan5       seems like this comes from Lua:
14:51 sfan5       ./lua/src/ldo.c:58:      setsvalue2s(L, oldtop, luaS_newliteral(L, "error in error handling"));
14:53 sfan5       can only happen in a few cases:
14:53 sfan5       ./lua/src/ldo.c:171:    luaD_throw(L, LUA_ERRERR);
14:53 sfan5       ./lua/src/ldo.c:374:      luaD_throw(L, LUA_ERRERR);  /* error while handing stack error */
14:53 sfan5       ./lua/src/ldebug.c:621:    if (!ttisfunction(errfunc)) luaD_throw(L, LUA_ERRERR);
14:55 nore        I guess what happened was minetest.after(0, <not a function>)
14:55 nore        so there is a problem there
14:55 sfan5       doesn't it check for that?
14:56 nore        it does... perhaps it was the assert that crashed
14:57 sfan5       o.O
14:59 ShadowNinja I did rewrite the serverlist in PHP, but it's unfinished.
15:00 sfan5       >PHP
15:00 sfan5       pls
15:00 sfan5       use a decent programming language
15:00 sfan5       like Python or Ruby
15:00 ShadowNinja And that error should only happen if you didn't pass a proper error handle to lua_pcall(), xpcall(), or it otherwise broke internally.
15:00 ShadowNinja sfan5: Those are harder to set up for web usage.
15:01 Megaf       or pure HTML 4
15:01 PenguinDad  Megaf: why not HTML 5?
15:01 Megaf       pure HTML 4 with a frame that shows a txt file
15:01 Megaf       lightweight and works on everything
15:02 ShadowNinja Megaf: No, that won't work.  It has to receive JSON data, decode it, proccess it, and store it in a file on the server.
15:02 sfan5       ShadowNinja: be prepared to get hit by any of these http://me.veekun.com/blog/2012/04/09/php-a-fractal-of-bad-design/
15:02 Megaf       PenguinDad; if you can write HTML5 without JavaScript...
15:02 Megaf       ShadowNinja; yep, there shold be another program or daemon getting the data and writing to a txt file,
15:02 Megaf       and html 4 would show that file
15:03 Megaf       IMHO the server list should be as light as possible
15:04 Megaf       and simple as possible
15:04 Megaf       then it would be easy to anything read from it
15:05 sfan5       it is already simple
15:06 sfan5       dl http://servers.minetest.net/list and parse it as JSON
15:06 Megaf       so, what change it?
15:06 Megaf       why*
15:07 Megaf       And can't we get rid of JSON?
15:07 sfan5       why?
15:07 sfan5       almost nobody can read perl
15:07 Megaf       because JavaScript
15:07 PenguinDad  Megaf: what would you use instead?
15:07 sfan5       what does JSON have to do with JavaScript?
15:08 Megaf       I don't know, I don't know how that works at the moment
15:08 Megaf       I would use simple and standard xml, html 4 and all plain text
15:08 sfan5       XML
15:08 Megaf       sfan5; The text inside :P
15:08 sfan5       fucking XML
15:08 Megaf       why?
15:08 Megaf       It works and it's simple
15:08 sfan5       XML is not readable
15:09 sfan5       Did you just really say XML is simple?
15:09 Megaf       I depends on how you write it
15:09 sfan5       no it does not
15:09 Megaf       well, I like the way it is now
15:09 sfan5       JSON is always simpler than XML
15:09 Megaf       I'm not really familiar with JSON actually
15:10 sfan5       is the XML spec as short as the JSON one? http://json.org/
15:10 sfan5       the images with the green boxes _completly_ describe JSON
15:10 sfan5       this is what simplicity is
15:10 sfan5       XML is anything but simple
15:11 LemonLake   +sfan5
15:12 Megaf       Right, I'm wrong about XML
15:36 sapier      wasn't javascript the reason why json was invented?
15:39 sapier      any additional comments to https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1309?
15:40 sapier      if not I'm gonna merge it soon
15:41 sapier      same for https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1371
15:41 sapier      and https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1372
15:44 proller     js stolen data format from perl {'a'=>1, 2=>[3,4,'five']}
15:47 proller     today dice shows to use )\n{
15:54 hmmmm       [11:08 AM] <Megaf> I would use simple and standard xml, html 4 and all plain text
15:54 hmmmm       no.
15:54 hmmmm       XML is *NOT* simple.
15:54 hmmmm       the standard is actually very overcomplicated, making it just about impossible to parse or build without a third party library.
15:54 sapier      hmmmm do you really believe that discussion will end anytime?
15:55 sapier      :-)
15:56 hmmmm       sapier:  probably not, but minetest SHALL NEVER need to use a third party library to achieve some task as mundane as data serialization
15:56 hmmmm       I think we already have way too many dependencies the way it is
15:57 sapier      you know we use json lib too? ;-) ... true it's quite lightweight
15:57 hmmmm       I don't like it though
15:58 sapier      I don't take part at that discussion, imho we have within minetest what we need if someone wants something new he's got to provide very very good reason why this can't be done with what we already have
15:59 hmmmm       yes
15:59 hmmmm       it's just that every time I see these sorts of discussion on #minetest-dev it scares me, because I'm not around hardly ever anymore and I don't want the project to become overrun with horrible design decisions
16:00 sapier      I usually try to stop commits adding x-th way to do same thing but I don't always suceed ... see redis
16:01 sapier      at least it's some completely different style of db ... and db interface is quite clean so adding and removing has almost no sideeffects
16:02 sapier      talking about design decisions what about https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1364 ?
16:03 sapier      removes some reimplemented irrlicht gui element which doesn't compile on irrlicht 1.9
16:03 hmmmm       i'm all for removing things that aren't used
16:04 sapier      as of comment it's used for some hack ... I haven't found a way to trigger it
16:04 hmmmm       however I think the reason that's there is due to Irrlicht brain damage and something wouldn't work unless it were basically reimplemented from scratch with the needed modifications
16:04 hmmmm       absolutely ridiculous
16:04 sapier      and the thing done by the hack is implemented in a way more clean way
16:05 sapier      the only thing I can imagine is there might be quite old worlds out where that one was used
16:05 sapier      but I don't know if it'S 2 or 4 years back
16:23 sfan5       sapier: "Shouldn't the dirt texture get moved to textures/base/pack/ to make it not depend on a minimal game being available?" you did not reply to that yet
16:25 sapier      because I moved it
16:27 sfan5       I see
16:28 sapier      actually I added same one again to base as I can't remove it from minimal
16:28 sapier      as it's a 16x16 texture that's not a big deal
16:38 jin_xi      so, i've been looking at the particle situation. irrlicht particles look nice for classic particle effects, but cannot do the physics which current node digging particles need
16:40 jin_xi      so we could add/use a particle engine lib like sparkengine or combine a physics engine for node fragments and such and use irrlichts particles for smoke etc
16:41 jin_xi      or just fix the wtf code for current particles and be done with it
18:21 Megaf       Ok, I'm downloading the Android SDK and will make builds of Minetest for Android
18:23 Megaf       will we use the same name for the Android version?
18:23 sfan5       why would we not?
18:27 Megaf       well, MC did the Pocket Edtion
18:27 Megaf       Maybe Minetest Mobile Edition or Minetest Mobile
18:27 sfan5       it's not a pocket edition
18:27 sfan5       it is the full featured client
18:27 sfan5       it does not need a name change
18:27 Megaf       indeed
18:29 Megaf       well, my build will run on ARMv6, ARMv7, x86, x64 and maybe ARMv8 (64 bit)
18:29 sfan5       I don't think android supports arm64 yet
18:30 Megaf       It does
18:30 Megaf       the latest one does
18:30 sfan5       [citation needed]}
18:30 sfan5       s/}//
18:30 Megaf       by Meaf
18:30 Megaf       Megaf*
18:30 Megaf       lol
18:30 Megaf       let me see the official doc
18:32 Megaf       sfan5; wow, there's no support from Android to ARMv8
18:33 sfan5       what did I say? >.>
18:33 Megaf       ok
18:33 Megaf       well, my build will run on ARMv6, ARMv7, x86, x64 and not ARMv8
18:33 Megaf       >P
18:34 Megaf       sfan5; I see my mistake, there's a number of Linux distros that supports ARMv8 and iOS 7 supports iOSv8 already too
18:35 Megaf       citation = http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel/1367774/focus=1367868
18:37 Megaf       now, what Android versions should I support?
18:37 Megaf       I think from 2.1+ ?
18:37 sapier1     2.3+
18:37 Megaf       ok
18:37 sfan5       you can't support 2.1
18:37 sfan5       it does not have android_native_app_glue
18:38 sapier1     we could write it outselfs but as long as noone has a device fast enough to be capable of running mt I see no use in spending that time
18:53 sapier1     merging rebased #1309 once travis build is complete
19:01 Megaf       hm, eclipse will never load here
19:05 Eater4      Megaf?
19:10 Megaf       I'm trying to run Eclipse from Android Developer Tools, it shows the splash screen, then asks about the workspace, then I select one and then it show the splash screen again "Loading orc.eclipse.help" and stays there.
19:12 sapier1     pushing now
19:12 Megaf       gonna try with Java from Oracle
19:21 sapier1     I'm gonna merge #1372 soon
19:37 Megaf       Ok, ADT doesnt work here sapier1 =/
19:37 sapier1     there are plenty of different reasons for this ... you know you need adt AND ndk?
19:38 Megaf       Yep, I dont the bundle
19:38 Megaf       It used to work on Debian Wheezy, Now I upgrade to Debian Jessey and it doesnt work anymore
19:39 sapier1     hmm I'm on wheezy
19:39 sapier1     pushing #1372 now
19:46 Megaf       Wheres the bot that used to say github links to issues we wrote here?
19:46 sapier1     ShadowNinja just because you label a regression to "not a bug" it still is a bug
19:50 Megaf       sapier1; Eclipse from Debian works fine
19:50 sapier1     maybe google did some strange patches
19:54 Megaf       I wonder if I can use normal eclipse
19:54 sapier1     you don't need eclipse to build
19:55 sapier1     who feels responsible for redis?
19:58 Taoki       So I'm experimenting with workbenches again. I must say, the node inventory lag even in singleplayer is really visible, for both a workbench and chest or furnace.
19:58 Taoki       Can't anything be done to predict it locally?
19:59 sapier1     not without major changes
19:59 Taoki       Like modify the menu / formspec code that handles inventory lists, to show an item as having been moved before th server reports that
19:59 Taoki       Ok... that's strange as it would sound pretty easy
19:59 Taoki       It's just a local visual effect to remove the feeling of lag
20:00 sapier1     only if you don't consider that a move may be prohibited
20:00 Taoki       Can't the client know that when the formspec is initially notified to it?
20:00 sapier1     at this time it's far from sure that this move will be allowed
20:01 sapier1     if we display it we'll never get told that it didn't actually happen
20:01 Taoki       Yes, but IMO that's far better than seeing this horrible lag in chests and all
20:01 sapier1     no that's not
20:01 Taoki       There can be a client setting for it, if anyone's unsure
20:01 sapier1     one is lag other is inconsistent messed up inventory
20:02 sapier1     client will NEVER get told about the correct locations later
20:03 Taoki       It can get told when the server tells it, like it happens currently. Just that the visual effect of item movement is also applied locally before that
20:03 Taoki       And updated when it's told, in case something changes then
20:03 sapier1     server does only update inventorys if things changed
20:03 sapier1     if you do modify your local representation of the inventory you wont get back in sync to server
20:04 Taoki       yeah, but if you do a change locally that's sent to the server automatically
20:04 sapier1     server is the one to decide not your local client
20:04 Taoki       Also, if the local representation is also updated again when the server notifies it, alongside local effect, that can reduce any out of sync problem
20:04 Taoki       True. But that's prediction
20:04 sapier1     server won't update it
20:04 Taoki       Same with movement prediction in some games
20:05 sapier1     no not same
20:05 sapier1     it's scriptable if some move is allowed or not thus prediction isn't possible without client side lua
20:05 kahrl       sapier1: how about: if the server doesn't update the inventory within X seconds after your request, revert to the last state sent by the server
20:06 kahrl       see also: client.cpp:711
20:06 Taoki       kahrl: X seconds means lag. The idea is for item changes to be represented instantly
20:06 sapier1     that'd ne the way to go for client side lua too but any at least somehow generic solution would be quite some work
20:06 kahrl       Taoki: yeah. Change the local inventory instantly, but revert to the authoritative state if it turns out the server doesn't update
20:06 Taoki       kahrl: Exactly
20:07 Taoki       That's what I meant. Can't fully get why that's not possible
20:07 kahrl       (either because of extreme lag or because the move was prohibited)
20:07 sapier1     you'd remove network lag but add permission lag
20:08 Taoki       Permission lag ia s lot more rare however
20:08 sapier1     no matter how fast your connection is, if some move is prohibited client will realize at best after X seconds
20:08 sapier1     but it's a permanent fixed lag
20:08 kahrl       sapier1: we could change the server to always send the inventory if a move was prohibited
20:08 kahrl       so this lag only occurs with new client -> old server
20:08 Taoki       sapier1: Yeah, but currently it does that for everything else
20:08 sapier1     hmm yes that'd be a way to go
20:09 Taoki       IMO it's far better to have lag in a rare circumstance (like prohibited move) rather than the most frequent circumstance (every move)
20:09 sapier1     no it's not taoki
20:10 sapier1     if there's lag user expects it because it's always there, having some random huge lag on a few situations causes way more confusion
20:10 sapier1     yet kahrls suggestions make sense, at least if there's someone to implement it, I'm still busy with android port
20:11 Taoki       sapier1: There are two solutions at least: 1 - Have the client know which inventories in a formspec hae permissions to put items in then, or 2 - Make this a setting turned off by default, so only weirdos like me can enable it :P
20:11 sapier1     and this is not a fix for crafting lag
20:11 Taoki       Yeah, that's a fix too
20:11 sapier1     no that's not
20:11 sapier1     for crafting we'd need to tell clients about craft recieps too which isn't done by now
20:12 Taoki       yes, seeing the craft result update would remain slow. But that's more acceptable
20:12 sapier1     write a feature request or implement it yourself ;-) or persuade someone to do it for you ;-)
20:12 * Taoki     nods, will do
20:29 sapier1     anyone to comment #1371?
20:30 sapier1     https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1371
20:37 sfan5       sapier1: looks good
20:39 VanessaE    sapier1: *reading some of the backlog*  what exactly stops us from sending the crafting recipes to the clients?  aside from this needing a protocol bump I mean?
20:41 sapier1     I didn't say we can't do it it's just some work to be done
20:41 VanessaE    ok.
20:42 VanessaE    just that the previous conversation clearly shows a strong resistance to client-side prediction of crafting, and seeing as how that ^^^ is the only sane way to do it... :)
20:42 * VanessaE  hopes taoki takes your second idea and just codes it :P
20:43 sapier1     ok that's not what I wanted to tell, I'm only reluctant to do this myself ... especially as last big thing is far from finished ;-)
20:43 VanessaE    (as you and I both know, feature requests around here tend to be ignored, in favor of "code it yourself", and finding others to do the work tens to be...difficult)
20:43 Taoki       VanessaE: Predicting crafting results would actually be hard, since they're a server function and the client couldn't know how it's used
20:43 Taoki       Predicting movement of inventory items however would be easy to add
20:44 VanessaE    Taoki: right, hence the client has to execute the same code the server would execute when conducting the craft.
20:44 sapier1     my guess it's gonna be done together with client side lua
20:44 VanessaE    that means iterating through the cookbook.
20:44 * Taoki     isn't fully sure about client-side Lua at this day, and how worth it it is
20:44 Taoki       Though it could help with such stuff i guess
20:45 sapier1     for this special case it's not absolutely required
20:45 sapier1     maybe it's even of almost no use ;-) except of the permission things
20:53 Krock       Just a little thing: I edited the font-image "fontlucida.png", so the special chars are better readable. Would this one ( http://imgur.com/xiCPGfT ) look better than the original?
20:55 VanessaE    Krock: no one uses that font anymore.  use freetype.
20:55 Krock       VanessaE, for the case _if_ freetype isn't used
20:55 sapier1     still if it is better I see no reason not to add it
20:55 VanessaE    (besides, if freetype isn't used, use my better fonts)
20:56 kaeza       Krock, how do they look in-game?
20:56 VanessaE    https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?id=4436
20:56 sapier1     isn't your font bigger then original one vanessae?
20:56 kaeza       as in, actual usage
20:56 VanessaE    sapier1: yep.  because the default 2point font sucks :P
20:57 sapier1     well that's a point of discussion speaking for Krock's ;-)
20:57 VanessaE    saqpso why not include mine as an option?
20:57 VanessaE    sapier1*
20:57 Krock       kaeza, it's just btter readable because it's whiter and some transpareny gotremoved
20:57 VanessaE    as well as using Krock's
20:59 sapier1     well I prefere freetype too maybe we should make some example screenshots
21:41 kaeza       an user on ##minetest-es is having this issue: http://i.imgur.com/KvRui75.png
21:42 kaeza       I recommended to update to latest git, but problem still persists
21:42 Taoki       kaeza: Is that my workbench mod? I see a 2x2 grid so just asking.
21:42 Taoki       Though it doesn't look related
21:50 kaeza       on a related note, this user seems to be trying to run it on a P4 with 448M of RAM (and from the screenshot, Win XP) :S
21:51 VanessaE    that's winXP?
21:51 VanessaE    looks more like 2K
21:51 kaeza       could be *checks*
21:51 kaeza       yep :S
21:51 VanessaE    note the minetest version displayed - did they actually update?
21:53 kaeza       that's an old screenshot; he already downloaded http://sfan5.pf-control.de/minetest-builds/minetest/minetest-0.4.9-9675d9e-win32.7z (which I don't think it's exactly latest git, but way newer than 0.4.8 or 0.4.9), but reports that the problem persists
21:53 VanessaE    the displayed inventory MIGHT be realtest
21:53 sfan5       using direct3d9 might hel
21:53 VanessaE    it has an inventory similar to that I think
21:53 sfan5       p
21:53 sfan5       but only my 64bit builds have that
22:09 kaeza       I guess he'll have to get a better comp :/