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us'0gb |
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VanessaE |
wrong channel |
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Exio4 |
what if the user runs a server? |
| 09:48 |
Exio4 |
nvm |
| 09:48 |
Exio4 |
thought it was another issue, not the same |
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| 12:12 |
Megaf |
morning |
| 12:14 |
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dsimon |
Hey all; I'm the author of PR 1285. There's no comments on it or anything yet, so I was hoping to get some feedback on whether anything needs to change in it. |
| 12:46 |
Megaf |
#1285 |
| 12:46 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1285 -- Debugging visualization for MapBlock boundaries by DavidMikeSimon |
| 12:48 |
Megaf |
dsimon: I think it's a great functionality |
| 12:48 |
dsimon |
Megaf, cool, thanks :-) |
| 12:49 |
dsimon |
I needed it in particular because I'm working on an alternate way to transfer mapblocks |
| 12:49 |
Megaf |
proller: PilzAdam: what do you think about #1285 ? |
| 12:49 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1285 -- Debugging visualization for MapBlock boundaries by DavidMikeSimon |
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| 16:32 |
sapier |
#1285 seems mostly fine |
| 16:32 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1285 -- Debugging visualization for MapBlock boundaries by DavidMikeSimon |
| 16:38 |
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| 16:39 |
BlockMen |
sapier, is there anything why formspec toolkit is not merged yet? |
| 16:39 |
sapier |
there's not been any response to various requests for comment |
| 16:40 |
sapier |
I don't merge pulls that big without anyone to agree to it |
| 16:40 |
BlockMen |
ic |
| 16:41 |
sapier |
I fixed all critizized points no matter how pointless I believe them to be but seems like ppl only want to complain but not agree ;-) |
| 16:42 |
sapier |
talking about agreeing, I'm gonna merge #1278 in about half an hour if there are no comments about problems |
| 16:42 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1278 -- Map irrlicht log level to minetest. Allow write irrlicht logs to debug file. by RealBadAngel |
| 16:44 |
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| 16:52 |
Megaf |
sapier: I tested the formspec and it's ok to me |
| 16:52 |
Megaf |
it works |
| 16:52 |
Megaf |
and you know how hard is for me to like something |
| 16:53 |
Megaf |
sapier: 1278 cant cause any harm, or can it? |
| 16:53 |
sapier |
well there's nothing particular to like about it, in best case there's no change at all ... which isn't exactly true as there is a minor change |
| 16:53 |
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| 16:53 |
sapier |
the game bar now supports scrolling on to many games |
| 16:53 |
Megaf |
yep, and it works |
| 16:53 |
Megaf |
so it's fine |
| 16:54 |
sapier |
I don't think 1278 can do anything wrong |
| 16:54 |
Megaf |
now, I'm curious about #1285, that may be really useful somehow |
| 16:54 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1285 -- Debugging visualization for MapBlock boundaries by DavidMikeSimon |
| 16:55 |
Megaf |
bye the way sapier, I fixed my server, I found some interesting facts about network and cpu usage |
| 16:56 |
sapier |
yes megaf, I'm quite interested as you have a very special setup |
| 17:12 |
Megaf |
hm |
| 17:12 |
Megaf |
it would be could if we coud use P2P to load media |
| 17:12 |
Megaf |
I wonder how hard would it be |
| 17:13 |
crazyR |
i see a slight issue with that.. you would need to checksum each file, as it wouldnt be hard for someone to modify say some of the images, or worst plant malware in them.. |
| 17:15 |
crazyR |
its a cool idea though if it could be done safely |
| 17:18 |
Megaf |
and if not P2P |
| 17:18 |
Megaf |
there could be a fast and official media server |
| 17:18 |
Megaf |
That would host all common media from common mods |
| 17:19 |
Megaf |
maybe CloudFlare |
| 17:20 |
crazyR |
cloudflare is just a cdn as far as im aware... but thats an idea fo its, own, what if we could intergrate the cloudflare api |
| 17:21 |
Megaf |
I'm not sure if we need to use any APT |
| 17:21 |
Megaf |
we could use just HTTP |
| 17:21 |
* Megaf |
doesnt know how CloudFlare works |
| 17:26 |
sapier |
to use p2p we'd require to use a p2p library as I don't wanna handle nat traversion firewall penetration and things like that on my own ;-) |
| 17:27 |
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| 17:36 |
Megaf |
well, we could just use a fast server as main server for media |
| 17:36 |
Megaf |
and maybe add some mirrors and keep them commented |
| 17:38 |
dsimon |
alternately, you could use bittorrent |
| 17:39 |
Megaf |
that's p2p ;) |
| 17:39 |
sapier |
problem with bittorrent is you risk being slowed down by providers l7 firewalls |
| 17:40 |
sapier |
not mentioning all those false positive "you have downloaded copyrighted material" claims ;-) |
| 17:40 |
dsimon |
bt does support an encryption mode that makes protocol analysis like that harder... |
| 17:40 |
dsimon |
but perhaps that's not a war of escalation worth getting into :-) |
| 17:40 |
Megaf |
metalink is pretty cool |
| 17:40 |
Megaf |
metalink uses http, bittorrent and http and others |
| 17:40 |
sapier |
the question is do we really need it? |
| 17:40 |
Megaf |
sapier: sure |
| 17:41 |
sapier |
for what? |
| 17:41 |
Megaf |
sometime a single connection client and use all servers uplink |
| 17:41 |
Megaf |
connectins client* |
| 17:41 |
Megaf |
fetching media |
| 17:41 |
sapier |
last time we did add a "faster" media protocol this was added because noone did want to fix the real bugs ;) |
| 17:41 |
sapier |
now we have to maintain both |
| 17:42 |
Megaf |
So why don't we fix bugs instead of looking for workarounds? |
| 17:42 |
sapier |
megaf that's not supposed to happen if you set parameters correct |
| 17:43 |
sapier |
if you set max_packets_per_iteration to correct value it's gonna be impossible for a single client to use all your bandwith |
| 17:43 |
sapier |
there's no perfect default for it as minetest can't guess the servers bandwidth |
| 17:44 |
Megaf |
maybe a handshake could solve that |
| 17:44 |
sapier |
no |
| 17:44 |
Megaf |
client asks, hey server, how fast can you send me your data? |
| 17:44 |
Megaf |
server replies, I don't know, let's see |
| 17:44 |
sapier |
and what does this tell for other clients? |
| 17:45 |
Megaf |
some servers would avarage out the numbers |
| 17:45 |
Megaf |
but I don't think that's a good aproach |
| 17:45 |
sapier |
it's a tradeoff automatic detection is likely to fail on various setups |
| 17:46 |
sapier |
while semi automatic (like we do now) depends on server admin to find the best setup for his server |
| 17:47 |
sapier |
and for what I know your connection is quite a challange, slow cpu asymetric (small) dsl line |
| 17:47 |
sapier |
that's like driving a 50cm² bike and expecting it to compete with a ferrari ;) |
| 17:48 |
Megaf |
not a slow CPU, just a software that doesnt know how to use its power |
| 17:48 |
sapier |
well minetest is a generic application not a highly specialized app suitable for mobile devices |
| 17:49 |
Megaf |
minetesetserver is a very specific applications, that should have as most CPU demanding tasks the mapgen and light calculation things |
| 17:49 |
Megaf |
and thats not what uses my CPU |
| 17:50 |
sapier |
and performing low latency packet switching |
| 17:50 |
sapier |
player movement and actions have to be transmitted to other players as fast as possible |
| 17:50 |
Megaf |
light calculations and mapgen could be done by, on PCs, OpenCL |
| 17:50 |
Megaf |
and on ARM, its "GPU' |
| 17:51 |
Megaf |
14:50:49 +sapier | player movement and actions have to be transmitted to other players as fast as possible |
| 17:51 |
Megaf |
well, that will depend on what kind of game minetest is |
| 17:51 |
sapier |
well if you know someone to write that code you have my full support ;-) |
| 17:52 |
sapier |
but the things you demand are all way from simple changes ;-) |
| 17:52 |
sapier |
it'd be way more easy for you to buy a faster machine |
| 17:54 |
Megaf |
no fun |
| 17:54 |
crazyR |
to be fair thought it shouldnt be a question of how easy is it. it should be a question of is it going to make things better. if the awnser is yes, then we should be ploughing through it and finding a way for it to be done. ie of one of can not code it then we find someone who can and kindly push for it to be implemented |
| 17:54 |
sapier |
I don't say your ideas aren't good, they are for sure. They're just a lot of work dedicated for a very very specific scenario |
| 17:55 |
sapier |
crazyR we're all doing this in our freetime, time spent to benefit gained ration is a BIG issue |
| 17:56 |
sapier |
adding a feature bothering only a couple of ppl instead of fixing issues paining almost everyone is hard to explain |
| 17:57 |
sapier |
but still, if someone wants to do this and provides the code that'd be perfectly ok |
| 17:57 |
crazyR |
i understand that. and so are us, who put our hard earned cash into hosting these games. i aslo try to contribute code where i can. but one thing i have noticed in this community and i dont mean everyone but most people have the "if it doesnt affect me then it doesnt matter" attitiude |
| 17:58 |
sapier |
well crazyR then you most likely met wrong ppl. Yet you can't expect us to fix only your problems. Therefore if you find others supporting your suggestions chances they'll be addressed increase |
| 17:59 |
sapier |
minetest is free, evereyone does what she/he WANTS to do, if you need some feature you'll have to find a way to persuade someone to do it, or do it yourself |
| 18:00 |
sapier |
and for example megaf is the only one I know using a pi for a minetest server. One person isn't enough for me to even start to do a change that big. |
| 18:01 |
sapier |
sorry megaf, if there's no other issue we need to do this for |
| 18:02 |
crazyR |
sapier, ive not made no problem, or had no problems to as to be fixed, so to speak, Ive been lucky enought to only need to observe and where posible help. and sapier, most of the time when i want something done i go at it my self, simply because i see to many people ask for things then se them get moan at.. "oh its not important" or "yeah what ever" the list goes on. Im not here saying to implement anything of the above. i simply made a |
| 18:02 |
crazyR |
comment based on observation, you didnt like it and have turned it into a tit for tat debate. |
| 18:04 |
sapier |
I don't know how long you follow MT crazyR but you should know I'm actually only interested in mob related things ... so why do I do all those things I did recently? |
| 18:05 |
crazyR |
hmm im not sure, sapier. maybe its because your a core dev.. I would think its your responcability to put that little bit more effort into it that the average contributer. am i right? |
| 18:06 |
troller |
sapier, because you like uselesss shitcode ;) |
| 18:06 |
sapier |
as everyone else I still spend my freetime ... even to talk to the usuall trolls ;-P |
| 18:06 |
troller |
maybe mojang pays you for killing MT |
| 18:07 |
sapier |
I thought he's allready paying you troller, he wont pay two ppl |
| 18:07 |
troller |
show my killing actions |
| 18:08 |
sapier |
I've wasted to much time for useless discussions like that, I wont do it this time |
| 18:08 |
crazyR |
useless.. what with me or with megaf? |
| 18:09 |
sapier |
troller ;-) |
| 18:09 |
troller |
so im only stopping you to killing |
| 18:09 |
sapier |
megaf's request is perfectly fine |
| 18:09 |
Calinou |
<Megaf> it would be could if we coud use P2P to load media |
| 18:09 |
Calinou |
<Megaf> I wonder how hard would it be |
| 18:09 |
Calinou |
too complex |
| 18:09 |
Calinou |
the files are small anyway |
| 18:10 |
sapier |
well you haven't requested anything crazyR but at least you don't tell trollers usuall "everything you do is bad" ;-) |
| 18:10 |
sapier |
most time without giving any specific reason |
| 18:10 |
troller |
you ignore all reasons |
| 18:11 |
sapier |
#1241 ... is perfect example for me not ignoring complains |
| 18:11 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1241 -- Add formspec toolkit and refactor mainmenu to use it by sapier |
| 18:11 |
troller |
you just adding next 1000 lines |
| 18:12 |
troller |
change one shitcode to another |
| 18:12 |
sapier |
see what I'm talking about? ;-P |
| 18:14 |
crazyR |
lol. come to think of it i have a suggestion....... what about haveing the minetest server side install a deamon. 1) makes our lives easier, also gives us the ability to auto restart upon crash without having to use hacky scripts |
| 18:15 |
sfan5 |
lolwat |
| 18:15 |
sapier |
there's nothing like a autostarting daemon on linux ;-) |
| 18:15 |
sfan5 |
using scripts is not hacky |
| 18:16 |
crazyR |
why isnt it hacky. its forcing a program/app/script to do something it wasnt designed to do |
| 18:16 |
crazyR |
its doing it because we have no other choice |
| 18:17 |
sapier |
crazyR maybe you know more then me how would you do a autostarting daemon on linx? |
| 18:17 |
sfan5 |
no, minetest wasn't designed to be autostarted |
| 18:17 |
sfan5 |
s/no, // |
| 18:17 |
sfan5 |
autorestarted* |
| 18:18 |
Calinou |
auto-restart script is fine to do |
| 18:18 |
crazyR |
if it was intstalled as a deamon, then upstart could watch over it, if it stops responding then it could close the proccess via the pid. then start it up. |
| 18:18 |
Calinou |
VanessaE has one |
| 18:18 |
Calinou |
it's daemon, not deamon :p |
| 18:18 |
sapier |
well my os doesn't have upstart |
| 18:18 |
sapier |
bsd doesn't have too |
| 18:18 |
Calinou |
Windows ;) |
| 18:19 |
sapier |
and on linux that's basically a script thing |
| 18:19 |
sfan5 |
crazyR: how would a program determine when it stops responding? |
| 18:20 |
crazyR |
i wouldnt know, the ins and out of it. as thats not my area of expertise.. but what i do know, is i run several dedicated webserver. and nearly everything that i use is run via a deamon, the deamon is managed by upstart. and it works. any crashes are detected and a restart is started |
| 18:21 |
sfan5 |
>a restart is started |
| 18:21 |
sapier |
I don't know exactly what you're running but I guess it's basically same as a script |
| 18:22 |
sfan5 |
if you use upstart with apache it is not automatically restarted |
| 18:22 |
crazyR |
yes it is... if its setup correctly. |
| 18:23 |
sfan5 |
no it does not |
| 18:24 |
sapier |
and what does you stop from setting up upstart for minetest? ;-) |
| 18:24 |
Megaf |
sapier: actually theres quite a big demand for RPi servers... |
| 18:24 |
Megaf |
I've seen two more already on servers.minetest.net and topics about RPis on forums |
| 18:24 |
crazyR |
ok, fine im lieing, like every other person who comes here with an idea. but. let just say for arguments sake, that your right and it does not.... then why the hell does nearly every linux proffesional software use a deamon |
| 18:25 |
sapier |
megaf if you can find some supporters that's gonna rise quickly ... still you have to consider pi IS limited it will never be able to run as many players as a real pc |
| 18:25 |
Amaz |
I like Megaf's RPi server. And I've played on another one. |
| 18:26 |
sfan5 |
Megaf: boards like banana pi/odroid/pandaboard/beagleboard/cubieboard are way better suited than an rpi |
| 18:26 |
Megaf |
Amaz: I should bring it back online |
| 18:27 |
sapier |
crazyR who told you're lieing? |
| 18:28 |
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| 18:28 |
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| 18:28 |
sfan5 |
crazyR: minetestserver is already a deamon, starting/stopping/restarting them is done by your system manager (upstart, systemd etc.); no daemon I know of does this yourself |
| 18:28 |
sfan5 |
itself* |
| 18:28 |
sfan5 |
+by |
| 18:29 |
Megaf |
sfan5: really? |
| 18:29 |
sfan5 |
yes |
| 18:29 |
Megaf |
I never used it as daemon |
| 18:29 |
Megaf |
alway run in place |
| 18:30 |
VanessaE |
Calinou: http://digitalaudioconcepts.com/vanessa/hobbies/minetest/Server-scripts/minetestserver-creative.sh |
| 18:30 |
sfan5 |
run in place does not really matter for daemon or not |
| 18:30 |
sapier |
maybe we should first specify what a "daemon" is, I feel like we all understand different things |
| 18:30 |
VanessaE |
all of the other server scripts are in that dir also. |
| 18:30 |
crazyR |
lol sfan where did you read that.. we been talking abou this for what 5 mins, and you only just tell me this. well then if it runs as a deamon, then why does it attatch its self to the console |
| 18:31 |
VanessaE |
also, hi. |
| 18:31 |
crazyR |
Hi VanessaE |
| 18:31 |
sapier |
ok crazyR so I assume your definition of "daemon" is a application detaching from console? |
| 18:32 |
crazyR |
not specificly no, but that is not the normal behavour of a deamon |
| 18:32 |
sfan5 |
crazyR: just because it does not fork into the bg does not mean it is not a deamon; init systems should be able to handle "daemons" that do not fork into bg too |
| 18:32 |
sapier |
then be more precise because that feature is a 5 min fix ;-P |
| 18:33 |
sfan5 |
not even 5 mins |
| 18:33 |
sapier |
well the golden edge variant adding a configurable pid file too |
| 18:34 |
crazyR |
ok to clear things up about what a daemon is, go rread this... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daemon_%28computing%29 |
| 18:34 |
crazyR |
then start to understand, why i dont think minetest runs as a deamon. |
| 18:35 |
sfan5 |
if I run "minetestserver &" it would be daemon |
| 18:35 |
sfan5 |
problem solved in 1 character |
| 18:35 |
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| 18:35 |
sapier |
ok .. so and what's the actuall benefit of doing it this way ? |
| 18:36 |
sapier |
I know it'd be more clean ... but still a unix only feature |
| 18:36 |
sfan5 |
windows is not designed to run something like "daemons" and that is not a problem |
| 18:36 |
crazyR |
the beneift is, 1) deamons always have a pid file assocaited with it, meaning it would be easier to manage. easier to shut down. easier for upstart and other managment programs to monitor(for the crashes) |
| 18:37 |
sfan5 |
>meaning it would be easier to manage. easier to shut down. |
| 18:37 |
sfan5 |
[citation needed] |
| 18:37 |
crazyR |
the truely run inthebackground, not just hidden |
| 18:37 |
sfan5 |
"minetestserver&" would run in the background |
| 18:37 |
sfan5 |
and what's running "hidden"? |
| 18:37 |
crazyR |
citation needed?? are you off your head... to shut it down i have to do one of 2 things.. |
| 18:38 |
crazyR |
killaa minetestserver |
| 18:38 |
crazyR |
or look for the pid and close it that way |
| 18:38 |
sfan5 |
>I have to do 2 things |
| 18:38 |
sfan5 |
>foo |
| 18:38 |
sfan5 |
>or |
| 18:38 |
sfan5 |
>bar |
| 18:38 |
sfan5 |
wat |
| 18:38 |
sfan5 |
that is one thing |
| 18:38 |
crazyR |
read |
| 18:38 |
crazyR |
it |
| 18:38 |
crazyR |
carefully |
| 18:38 |
crazyR |
do get smart |
| 18:38 |
sfan5 |
if you have a pidfile you also need to open the pidfile and kill the process, that is one thing too |
| 18:39 |
sfan5 |
ah sorry, misread it |
| 18:39 |
VanessaE |
minetestserver & echo $! > /var/run/minetestserver.pid |
| 18:39 |
sfan5 |
^ |
| 18:39 |
VanessaE |
(I think it's $! that gets you the pid of the process |
| 18:39 |
VanessaE |
and nevermind where I put the file, that's just off the top of my head |
| 18:40 |
sapier |
VanessaE: he doesn't like scripts he believes them to be "hacky" |
| 18:40 |
crazyR |
Thanks VanessaE i will experiment with that. but my point is why are we having to do it this way. |
| 18:40 |
VanessaE |
crazyR: the entirety of the Unix world is build on scripting. you don't honestly think the files in /etc/init.d are binaries do you? |
| 18:40 |
sapier |
linux startup was almost script only for about two decades ... but I guess that's not a valid reason for him |
| 18:41 |
VanessaE |
many of those init scripts do exactly the same thing - they get the pid of the processes they just started so they can be used later |
| 18:41 |
crazyR |
also sapier: i never siad i dont like scripts. i siad it should be done better |
| 18:41 |
sfan5 |
you are implying scripts are "bad" |
| 18:41 |
crazyR |
lol |
| 18:41 |
crazyR |
i can see why people find it hard to suggest anythinghere |
| 18:41 |
sapier |
>>> (20:14:39) crazyR: |
| 18:42 |
sfan5 |
read |
| 18:42 |
sfan5 |
it |
| 18:42 |
sfan5 |
carefully |
| 18:42 |
VanessaE |
crazyR: scripts are used because they're easier to customize for specific applications than binaries. |
| 18:42 |
sfan5 |
don't get smart |
| 18:42 |
sfan5 |
</quote from="you"> |
| 18:42 |
|
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| 18:43 |
sapier |
"... without having to use hacky scripts" I don't se another way to interpret this as you believing scripts to be hacky |
| 18:43 |
crazyR |
i siad hacky scripts. i never siad i dont like scripts |
| 18:43 |
crazyR |
learnt he diffrence |
| 18:44 |
crazyR |
*the |
| 18:44 |
VanessaE |
and how do you define a script as being hacky? |
| 18:44 |
VanessaE |
because of things like keepalive in the case of minetest? |
| 18:44 |
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| 18:44 |
sapier |
well in this case, just write a non hacky script to start your server and we alle are happy |
| 18:44 |
crazyR |
that being one yeah. |
| 18:45 |
sfan5 |
<VanessaE> and how do you define a script as being hacky? |
| 18:46 |
crazyR |
why you use script to force an app to do somthing it wasnt designed to do. as stated above |
| 18:47 |
VanessaE |
crazyR: that's the sole purpose of scripting. |
| 18:47 |
sfan5 |
^ |
| 18:47 |
VanessaE |
to make applications do things that they, in the singular, are not supposed to do. |
| 18:47 |
sapier |
crazyR a programm can't supervise itself by definition |
| 18:48 |
crazyR |
yes, but you seem to forget, that this is an app is being run to near proffessional levels. so it should be treated in the same way |
| 18:48 |
sfan5 |
uh, what? |
| 18:48 |
VanessaE |
just because you may only run one single application over and over (not counting containing while loop or sleep) doesn't change the fact that you're using the scripting language to do precisely what it's intended for |
| 18:48 |
sfan5 |
how do you define "professional applications"? |
| 18:48 |
VanessaE |
crazyR: Minetest is NOT enterprise-level software. |
| 18:48 |
VanessaE |
no one here will make that claim. |
| 18:49 |
VanessaE |
we'd sure like it to be, but it isn't. |
| 18:51 |
crazyR |
no it not, and no one need to claim it, but when its being run on servers that cost in exccess of £40 + then it should be looked at as a proffesional application. when we are providing a service(allbeit a free service) to all the players out there who use our servers then its our responcability to push for it to be made to work like a proffesional app. |
| 18:52 |
jin_xi |
you'd be surprised as of what kind of code lurks beneath many a shiny professional surface |
| 18:52 |
sfan5 |
wat :D |
| 18:53 |
sfan5 |
if I run "bash" on a server that costs more than €40, "bash" automagically is a "professional application"? |
| 18:54 |
crazyR |
lol no but you should damn well trwat it like it is. why would you waste that sort of money otherwise... if you think of it as just another file sat on the hd, then you show alot of neglect. |
| 18:54 |
crazyR |
*treat |
| 18:55 |
sfan5 |
so "running scripts on servers that cost more than €40" = "waste of money"? |
| 18:56 |
crazyR |
but forget about the money aspect. heck forget about the service aspect.. we use this app on a daily basis, why the hell are we "scripting" to make it do what 60% or more of us want it todo anyhow? |
| 18:56 |
sfan5 |
<VanessaE> crazyR: that's the sole purpose of scripting. |
| 18:56 |
sfan5 |
did you not understand that? |
| 18:57 |
sapier |
crazyR I guess instead of discussing this here just write a feature request on github this change is as small as you might even have a chance someone is gonna implement it while doing something else |
| 18:57 |
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| 18:59 |
crazyR |
lmao sfan is that all your going todo... copy and paste other peoples awnsers and ask for definitions. how about say something usefull or helpfull or dont say anything on this topic. sapier, i refuse to write anything on minetest's github as it turns into a warzone.. but then again, as i found out here tonight, its not worth commenting here, neither as it has the same outcome |
| 18:59 |
Anchakor_ |
crazyR: all server hosting services are like that - shielding clients from the configuration of management of the servers, why should minetest be any different? |
| 18:59 |
VanessaE |
wait a minute, what? |
| 18:59 |
sfan5 |
^ |
| 18:59 |
VanessaE |
head --> desk |
| 19:00 |
sfan5 |
crazyR: please clean your system of "hacky" scripts entirely; if you're done we'll see how well it runs |
| 19:00 |
sfan5 |
also I just tried to tell you that the whole point of scripting is to make applications do things they aren't designed to |
| 19:00 |
sfan5 |
that like.. |
| 19:01 |
sapier |
lol crazyR you're doing to easy, once you're requested to do what any professional would do you refuse to do it |
| 19:01 |
sfan5 |
saying CMake should support downloading libraries, building minetest (already done) & uploading it for me because I currently use "hacky" (according to your definiton) scripts to do this automatically |
| 19:02 |
VanessaE |
crazyR: let me give you a TRUE definition of hacky: |
| 19:03 |
VanessaE |
http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/7464277/ |
| 19:03 |
VanessaE |
see this? |
| 19:03 |
VanessaE |
I put this little bit of code into place yesterday because bfgminer has a bug that makes it hang up after a while. Since I can't fix it, I set up a script to kill it and restart it after 1 hour. |
| 19:03 |
VanessaE |
THAT is hacky. |
| 19:04 |
VanessaE |
(not exactly on-topic for this channel, but it IS a mining application... just a different kind of mining ;) ) |
| 19:04 |
Anchakor_ |
sounds like the guy is trying to con other people into doing what is part of his job |
| 19:05 |
sfan5 |
VanessaE: dogecoin or litecoin? |
| 19:05 |
VanessaE |
sfan5: it pays out in dogecoin. |
| 19:05 |
Megaf |
VanessaE: yep, Im thinking in making a script to restart mineteserserver every hour |
| 19:05 |
sfan5 |
Megaf: why that? |
| 19:05 |
puhfa |
is there a valid, preferred way to suggest new features or discuss about those? |
| 19:05 |
VanessaE |
crazyR: the proper, NON-hacky way to do what I did in this script would have been to fix bfgminer to not get stuck in the first place, andjust not even bother with the do/while loop. |
| 19:05 |
dsimon |
puhfa, write PR? ;-) |
| 19:06 |
puhfa |
so far i have seen github pull requests and #minetest-dev discussions very quickly turn into this kind of non-productive nitpicking |
| 19:06 |
VanessaE |
Megaf: don't restart your minetest server repeatedly. that's pointless. restart it daily when you take backups, like I do. THAT has a point. |
| 19:06 |
crazyR |
carefull puhfa, they will ask you to citate |
| 19:06 |
puhfa |
good point |
| 19:06 |
crazyR |
heck my spelling is bad |
| 19:07 |
sfan5 |
puhfa: github issues; also this mostly happens to stuff many people disagree with |
| 19:07 |
puhfa |
anyway, i understand that there is a close-knit group formed around the core development and thats all fine and dandy, but if there is a preferred way to participate, id like to know that |
| 19:07 |
puhfa |
if i want to rant and split hairs, i have my own channels for that |
| 19:07 |
crazyR |
listen the point i was trying to make before it turned into this mess. is that upstart monitors the proccess... that is how it determines if the app is crashed. thus restarting it. |
| 19:08 |
sfan5 |
crazyR: that is done the most effectively with a script |
| 19:08 |
VanessaE |
crazyR: did you read the above script or not? |
| 19:08 |
puhfa |
sounds like a daemon to me but im no expert on networking or operating systems. i only know that there are other oses supporting similar things even if they dont call them exactly daemons |
| 19:08 |
VanessaE |
christ in a cartoon, did you read EITHER of the scripts I linked to?? |
| 19:09 |
puhfa |
and yeah, you can always write a for (;;) equivalent instead |
| 19:09 |
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| 19:09 |
VanessaE |
and why the hell are we discussing this here in -dev in the first place? |
| 19:09 |
crazyR |
Vanessae i read it but i dont see the point it writing scripts to do somthing that half the other osses have builtin scripts an apps to do the same or similar things. |
| 19:09 |
crazyR |
the onlky thing they rely on is that the app is built correctly |
| 19:10 |
VanessaE |
*facepalm* |
| 19:10 |
puhfa |
thats another good question. why everything on #minetest is about placing felines on other peoples heads? |
| 19:10 |
sfan5 |
>that half the other osses have builtin |
| 19:10 |
sfan5 |
which OSs have that? |
| 19:10 |
puhfa |
again, is there a preferred channel for this kind of questions? |
| 19:10 |
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| 19:10 |
puhfa |
sfan5: windows for instance does have its services |
| 19:10 |
sfan5 |
puhfa: -dev is for development |
| 19:10 |
sfan5 |
puhfa: windows is not important for servers |
| 19:10 |
puhfa |
so is there a #minetest-drphil then? |
| 19:10 |
crazyR |
lmao, |
| 19:10 |
puhfa |
sfan5: name an os other than an unix variant that is |
| 19:11 |
sfan5 |
bsd |
| 19:11 |
puhfa |
touche |
| 19:11 |
dsimon |
bsd is a unix variant :-| |
| 19:11 |
sfan5 |
(strictly that is an unix variant too) |
| 19:11 |
VanessaE |
crazyR: what do you mean by "built in scripts and apps to do the same"? citation needed. |
| 19:12 |
VanessaE |
and I mean program names, paths, script names, exit status, etc. |
| 19:12 |
puhfa |
i would still like to see people answering even one question here or directing people elsewhere if questions are not welcome on -dev, which i would perfectly understand too |
| 19:12 |
puhfa |
or if such a channel does not exists yet (doesnt have to be an irc channel), there is apparent demand for one |
| 19:12 |
puhfa |
+english |
| 19:13 |
crazyR |
wow. ok upstart for linux, does the monitoring, taskmanager monitors on windows, and im sure any other os worth its name has an app to do that. so what i was saying above is why are we/ you writing scripts to that very same job |
| 19:13 |
sfan5 |
>taskmanager monitors on windows |
| 19:13 |
VanessaE |
puhfa: any question you want to ask regarding development of the engine (and sometimes the default games) can be asked here. |
| 19:13 |
sfan5 |
since when does taskmanager start/restart services? |
| 19:13 |
sfan5 |
>im sure any other os worth its name has an app to do that |
| 19:13 |
sfan5 |
iOS, Android? |
| 19:13 |
VanessaE |
crazyR: an app to do WHAT exactly? |
| 19:14 |
puhfa |
VanessaE: okay. so clearly crazyR is in the wrong place then. is there any other channel he could have a better chance of getting his answers? |
| 19:14 |
VanessaE |
to watchdog a process? |
| 19:14 |
crazyR |
yes |
| 19:14 |
crazyR |
pretty much |
| 19:14 |
VanessaE |
puhfa: if he wants to take up his questions in this community, #minetest. |
| 19:14 |
VanessaE |
crazyR: linux has such programs too. |
| 19:14 |
VanessaE |
we just don't use them all the time because sometimes scripting is more convenient. |
| 19:14 |
crazyR |
wow. im talking to a walll |
| 19:14 |
Anchakor_ |
crazyR: what exactly you want? someone to write you an upstart config for MT? you have the config and want to share it? |
| 19:15 |
VanessaE |
convenience and maintainability trumps "built-in, already does that job" nearly every single time, provided the result is not slower |
| 19:15 |
puhfa |
okay. from what ive understood the chances of seeing any real discussion there are very slim |
| 19:15 |
sfan5 |
crazyR: http://upstart.ubuntu.com/getting-started.html see "Writing Jobs" |
| 19:15 |
sfan5 |
upstart uses scripts too |
| 19:15 |
VanessaE |
puhfa: right *now*, yeah. later you can expect more relevant discussion |
| 19:15 |
puhfa |
but i will take my rant there then and will not bother you guys anymore unless its engine related |
| 19:16 |
puhfa |
VanessaE: so far i havent seen any :P |
| 19:16 |
VanessaE |
puhfa: 90% of what goes on in here is strictly on-topic. this discussion here is actually quite opposite of the norm |
| 19:17 |
crazyR |
didnt realise that my suggesion wasnt DEV based |
| 19:17 |
crazyR |
i do appologise |
| 19:17 |
VanessaE |
crazyR: in other words, by G*d I will use a cron job or some simply 5-10 line script if it gets the job done better for my needs than some built-in program, script, upstart job, etc. if it also means I can more easily understand and maintain that script, make it do something new, etc. |
| 19:17 |
VanessaE |
s/simply/simple/ |
| 19:18 |
Anchakor_ |
I run linux for almost 10 years and never got to work with upstart, heard about it maybe once |
| 19:24 |
crazyR |
Anchakor_ I beleive thats personal choice. im sure there was other similar apps that did similar things before upstart. the point immaking is not neccerily directed towards upstart. but in genral. why should we have to create scripts to do something that most os's are capable of doing already. provided the app is built as a deamon. |
| 19:25 |
sfan5 |
upstart is capable of running minetestserver as a daemon |
| 19:25 |
sfan5 |
guess what it uses! |
| 19:25 |
crazyR |
lol go on sfan5. enlighten me |
| 19:25 |
sfan5 |
right! upstart uses scripts for that" |
| 19:25 |
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| 19:25 |
sfan5 |
S/"/!/ |
| 19:25 |
sfan5 |
<sfan5> crazyR: http://upstart.ubuntu.com/getting-started.html see "Writing Jobs" |
| 19:27 |
Anchakor_ |
well that is what people who sell gaming servers do - write scripts and manage the servers, you should be prepared to o that if you want to host servers |
| 19:28 |
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| 19:29 |
crazyR |
ahh right so your one of the few who promote hindering the learning of others through direct action, by telling them to go pay for a prebuilt pres setup server. what an idiot. |
| 19:29 |
sfan5 |
if you want to continue insulting people please leave |
| 19:31 |
crazyR |
sfan5> if you want to continue insulting people please leave <<--- sfan i am leaving, i dont think its fair on others to see this debate. and i really can not be bother, its not constructive in the slightest. and by the way, you saw me as being insulting, well you we're insulting to me. but then again, your a dev, you can. |
| 19:31 |
sfan5 |
>what an idiot. |
| 19:31 |
sfan5 |
nope |
| 19:31 |
sfan5 |
not insulting |
| 19:31 |
VanessaE |
crazyR: you're arguing with people who have already done this stuff |
| 19:31 |
VanessaE |
been there, done that, GOT PAID TO DO IT. |
| 19:31 |
sfan5 |
>you're a dev, you can |
| 19:32 |
sfan5 |
what does being a dev have to do with it? |
| 19:32 |
Anchakor_ |
crazyR: and you are one of those who demand others to do what you want, with no regard for the fact that it actualy has almost nothing to do with their (voluntary and unpaid) job |
| 19:32 |
crazyR |
there is no argument. IT WAS A SUGGESTION THAT YOU GUIYS OBVIOUSLY DIDNT LIKE, AND DECIDED THAT I MUST BE BELITTLED IN ORDER TO MAKE YOUR SMALL MINDS FEEL BETTER |
| 19:32 |
VanessaE |
crazyR: no one's belittling you. |
| 19:32 |
sfan5 |
here you go again |
| 19:32 |
crazyR |
really |
| 19:33 |
VanessaE |
you're the one launching into insults here. |
| 19:33 |
sfan5 |
I would count that as an insult |
| 19:33 |
VanessaE |
"small minds"? |
| 19:33 |
sfan5 |
the suggestion of adding an option for e.g. forking into bg is not bad, we like it |
| 19:34 |
Anchakor_ |
crazyR: why didn't you just say "I wish there was an upstart script bundled with minetest" and stopped at that? |
| 19:34 |
VanessaE |
crazyR: you're arguing for us to do shit that we don't believe is really needed in minetest at this point in its development. |
| 19:35 |
crazyR |
Vanessae: that is my exact point "you're arguing for us to do shit that we don't believe is really needed in minetest at this point in its development." who decides what is needed. the community the ones that make suggestions or the core devs? |
| 19:35 |
VanessaE |
sfan5: a good idea indeed, but since the same can be done with a simple ampersand, it's not needed yet. |
| 19:35 |
VanessaE |
crazyR: a meeting of minds, but ultimately the core devs make that decision. |
| 19:35 |
sfan5 |
crazyR: whether something is needed or not is argued with everyone, but <quote>ultimately the core devs make that decision.</quote> |
| 19:36 |
Anchakor_ |
in short those who do the work do the decision, whether it ends up as part of a MT or a fork |
| 19:36 |
dsimon |
Anchakor, upstart is actually relatively new on the init management scene |
| 19:37 |
dsimon |
and it's ubuntu specific |
| 19:37 |
dsimon |
so it's not that odd that you may not have seen it |
| 19:37 |
Anchakor_ |
yeah, no surprise it is largery ignored |
| 19:38 |
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| 19:38 |
sfan5 |
systemd FTW |
| 19:38 |
dsimon |
or supervisord |
| 19:38 |
VanessaE |
no love for sysv? ;) |
| 19:38 |
crazyR |
guys/girls/women those who arnt so sure... you are all obviously a verry close bunch. and dont like views that conflict with your own, so i wont waste any more of my time here. take care good luck. enjoy. bye |
| 19:38 |
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| 19:39 |
sfan5 |
(even if I use xubuntu myself, systemd is better[but not perfect]) |
| 19:39 |
VanessaE |
... |
| 19:39 |
dsimon |
so anyways, i removed my editorconfig change from #1285 and moved it to #1301 |
| 19:39 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1285 -- Debugging visualization for MapBlock boundaries by DavidMikeSimon |
| 19:39 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1301 -- Added editorconfig file by DavidMikeSimon |
| 19:39 |
VanessaE |
*gasp* a core dev related question? |
| 19:39 |
sfan5 |
:D |
| 19:54 |
sapier |
#1302 nfc |
| 19:54 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1302 -- Add daemon support for linux like operating systems by sapier |
| 19:57 |
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| 19:59 |
VanessaE |
sapier: see #minetest log when you get a sec. |
| 20:07 |
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| 20:14 |
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| 20:22 |
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| 20:25 |
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| 20:34 |
Megaf |
join #odroid |
| 20:34 |
Megaf |
oops |
| 20:37 |
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| 20:46 |
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proller joined #minetest-dev |
| 20:54 |
cerulean256 |
can someone describe what object:get_luaentity().collect does... i can't find this method in the docs. |
| 21:02 |
sapier |
cerulean256: where do you have that from? |
| 21:02 |
CraigyDavi |
cerulean256, If I'm not mistaken.. it should get the object entity and collect it in the players inventory |
| 21:03 |
CraigyDavi |
I belive it is from item_drop mod |
| 21:03 |
sapier |
object:get_luaentity() provides a entity while .collect accesses the "collect" member of that entity |
| 21:04 |
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| 21:05 |
sapier |
you can set whatever member you want, so I'd not be surprised if this wasn't a official api element |
| 21:06 |
sapier |
if it's from that mod most likely the one who wrote it can tell you what he did save in that param |
| 21:11 |
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| 21:27 |
CraigyDavi |
Is this a bug? https://mediacru.sh/YdnDNoT5bnwx.png IP shows as 0.0.0.0. |
| 21:27 |
proller |
no |
| 21:30 |
CraigyDavi |
Ok |
| 21:31 |
sapier |
0.0.0.0 is "listen to all interfaces" |
| 21:33 |
CraigyDavi |
Ah I see |
| 21:33 |
cerulean256 |
Well PilzAdam wrote it :) |
| 21:43 |
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RealBadAngel joined #minetest-dev |
| 21:44 |
RealBadAngel |
hi |
| 21:44 |
RealBadAngel |
new commit about shaders: |
| 21:44 |
RealBadAngel |
#1303 |
| 21:45 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1303 -- Unite nodes shaders. by RealBadAngel |
| 21:45 |
sapier |
RealBadAngel: compiles |
| 21:45 |
sapier |
btw is there any way to stop channels from waving like big ocean? ;.) |
| 21:46 |
RealBadAngel |
atm no |
| 21:50 |
RealBadAngel |
and i cant even imagine how one should make connection from waving to non-waving surfaces |
| 21:54 |
sapier |
hmm sad, can you think about it? |
| 21:55 |
RealBadAngel |
maybe some day |
| 21:55 |
sapier |
well waving is cool but once you have a lot of small water channels it just looks strange :-( |
| 21:56 |
RealBadAngel |
to make them behave different way, another water would be needed |
| 21:56 |
RealBadAngel |
i mean another node |
| 22:08 |
sapier |
hmm maybe that wouldn't even be the worst thing |
| 22:08 |
RealBadAngel |
like ocean_water and still_water |
| 22:10 |
sapier |
for example ... we'd most likely need some abms for transformation too .. well a lot of finetuning |
| 22:11 |
jin_xi |
so, i started working on a patch to fix some weird code in particles |
| 22:11 |
jin_xi |
but now im baffled |
| 22:12 |
jin_xi |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/src/script/common/c_converter.cpp#L88 so, those two functions are the same, amirite? |
| 22:13 |
jin_xi |
read and check_v3f |
| 22:16 |
sapier |
possible |
| 22:16 |
sapier |
must have missed that when collecting those functions from different parts of code to a single file |
| 22:17 |
jin_xi |
read_v3f is used mostly check_v3f only mostly in particles |
| 22:18 |
jin_xi |
^ fail sentence |
| 22:19 |
sapier |
I think you should replace the check by read |
| 22:19 |
jin_xi |
well, on a closer look, they re slighlty different |
| 22:20 |
jin_xi |
one uses lua_tonumber the other luaL_checknumber |
| 22:20 |
sapier |
hmmm what's the difference? |
| 22:20 |
jin_xi |
i am wondering too |
| 22:21 |
RealBadAngel |
better idea: on mapgen generate two kinds of water - ocean and lake/rivers |
| 22:22 |
RealBadAngel |
only ocean water could wave |
| 22:22 |
RealBadAngel |
then no abms needed at all |
| 22:22 |
sapier |
hmm hard to tell the only possible difference I can imagine from docs is lua_checknumber may fail if param is a string type |
| 22:23 |
jin_xi |
ok, so it seems tonumber is more tolerant and gives 0 when no number or numeric string is there and the other will throw error in that case |
| 22:23 |
jin_xi |
what you said |
| 22:23 |
sapier |
I don't know why that difference should be relevant |
| 22:24 |
sapier |
my guess is this wasn't intentionally but only different coders writing them |
| 22:24 |
jin_xi |
i'd rather use read |
| 22:25 |
sapier |
well I suggest replacing check by read and then give it some time to review, maybe some other dev knows a issue we don't think about right now |
| 22:26 |
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