Time Nick Message 00:58 Piggybear87 us'0gb 01:05 VanessaE wrong channel 09:48 Exio4 what if the user runs a server? 09:48 Exio4 nvm 09:48 Exio4 thought it was another issue, not the same 12:12 Megaf morning 12:31 dsimon Hey all; I'm the author of PR 1285. There's no comments on it or anything yet, so I was hoping to get some feedback on whether anything needs to change in it. 12:46 Megaf #1285 12:46 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1285 -- Debugging visualization for MapBlock boundaries by DavidMikeSimon 12:48 Megaf dsimon: I think it's a great functionality 12:48 dsimon Megaf, cool, thanks :-) 12:49 dsimon I needed it in particular because I'm working on an alternate way to transfer mapblocks 12:49 Megaf proller: PilzAdam: what do you think about #1285 ? 12:49 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1285 -- Debugging visualization for MapBlock boundaries by DavidMikeSimon 16:32 sapier #1285 seems mostly fine 16:32 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1285 -- Debugging visualization for MapBlock boundaries by DavidMikeSimon 16:39 BlockMen sapier, is there anything why formspec toolkit is not merged yet? 16:39 sapier there's not been any response to various requests for comment 16:40 sapier I don't merge pulls that big without anyone to agree to it 16:40 BlockMen ic 16:41 sapier I fixed all critizized points no matter how pointless I believe them to be but seems like ppl only want to complain but not agree ;-) 16:42 sapier talking about agreeing, I'm gonna merge #1278 in about half an hour if there are no comments about problems 16:42 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1278 -- Map irrlicht log level to minetest. Allow write irrlicht logs to debug file. by RealBadAngel 16:52 Megaf sapier: I tested the formspec and it's ok to me 16:52 Megaf it works 16:52 Megaf and you know how hard is for me to like something 16:53 Megaf sapier: 1278 cant cause any harm, or can it? 16:53 sapier well there's nothing particular to like about it, in best case there's no change at all ... which isn't exactly true as there is a minor change 16:53 sapier the game bar now supports scrolling on to many games 16:53 Megaf yep, and it works 16:53 Megaf so it's fine 16:54 sapier I don't think 1278 can do anything wrong 16:54 Megaf now, I'm curious about #1285, that may be really useful somehow 16:54 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1285 -- Debugging visualization for MapBlock boundaries by DavidMikeSimon 16:55 Megaf bye the way sapier, I fixed my server, I found some interesting facts about network and cpu usage 16:56 sapier yes megaf, I'm quite interested as you have a very special setup 17:12 Megaf hm 17:12 Megaf it would be could if we coud use P2P to load media 17:12 Megaf I wonder how hard would it be 17:13 crazyR i see a slight issue with that.. you would need to checksum each file, as it wouldnt be hard for someone to modify say some of the images, or worst plant malware in them.. 17:15 crazyR its a cool idea though if it could be done safely 17:18 Megaf and if not P2P 17:18 Megaf there could be a fast and official media server 17:18 Megaf That would host all common media from common mods 17:19 Megaf maybe CloudFlare 17:20 crazyR cloudflare is just a cdn as far as im aware... but thats an idea fo its, own, what if we could intergrate the cloudflare api 17:21 Megaf I'm not sure if we need to use any APT 17:21 Megaf we could use just HTTP 17:21 * Megaf doesnt know how CloudFlare works 17:26 sapier to use p2p we'd require to use a p2p library as I don't wanna handle nat traversion firewall penetration and things like that on my own ;-) 17:36 Megaf well, we could just use a fast server as main server for media 17:36 Megaf and maybe add some mirrors and keep them commented 17:38 dsimon alternately, you could use bittorrent 17:39 Megaf that's p2p ;) 17:39 sapier problem with bittorrent is you risk being slowed down by providers l7 firewalls 17:40 sapier not mentioning all those false positive "you have downloaded copyrighted material" claims ;-) 17:40 dsimon bt does support an encryption mode that makes protocol analysis like that harder... 17:40 dsimon but perhaps that's not a war of escalation worth getting into :-) 17:40 Megaf metalink is pretty cool 17:40 Megaf metalink uses http, bittorrent and http and others 17:40 sapier the question is do we really need it? 17:40 Megaf sapier: sure 17:41 sapier for what? 17:41 Megaf sometime a single connection client and use all servers uplink 17:41 Megaf connectins client* 17:41 Megaf fetching media 17:41 sapier last time we did add a "faster" media protocol this was added because noone did want to fix the real bugs ;) 17:41 sapier now we have to maintain both 17:42 Megaf So why don't we fix bugs instead of looking for workarounds? 17:42 sapier megaf that's not supposed to happen if you set parameters correct 17:43 sapier if you set max_packets_per_iteration to correct value it's gonna be impossible for a single client to use all your bandwith 17:43 sapier there's no perfect default for it as minetest can't guess the servers bandwidth 17:44 Megaf maybe a handshake could solve that 17:44 sapier no 17:44 Megaf client asks, hey server, how fast can you send me your data? 17:44 Megaf server replies, I don't know, let's see 17:44 sapier and what does this tell for other clients? 17:45 Megaf some servers would avarage out the numbers 17:45 Megaf but I don't think that's a good aproach 17:45 sapier it's a tradeoff automatic detection is likely to fail on various setups 17:46 sapier while semi automatic (like we do now) depends on server admin to find the best setup for his server 17:47 sapier and for what I know your connection is quite a challange, slow cpu asymetric (small) dsl line 17:47 sapier that's like driving a 50cm² bike and expecting it to compete with a ferrari ;) 17:48 Megaf not a slow CPU, just a software that doesnt know how to use its power 17:48 sapier well minetest is a generic application not a highly specialized app suitable for mobile devices 17:49 Megaf minetesetserver is a very specific applications, that should have as most CPU demanding tasks the mapgen and light calculation things 17:49 Megaf and thats not what uses my CPU 17:50 sapier and performing low latency packet switching 17:50 sapier player movement and actions have to be transmitted to other players as fast as possible 17:50 Megaf light calculations and mapgen could be done by, on PCs, OpenCL 17:50 Megaf and on ARM, its "GPU' 17:51 Megaf 14:50:49 +sapier | player movement and actions have to be transmitted to other players as fast as possible 17:51 Megaf well, that will depend on what kind of game minetest is 17:51 sapier well if you know someone to write that code you have my full support ;-) 17:52 sapier but the things you demand are all way from simple changes ;-) 17:52 sapier it'd be way more easy for you to buy a faster machine 17:54 Megaf no fun 17:54 crazyR to be fair thought it shouldnt be a question of how easy is it. it should be a question of is it going to make things better. if the awnser is yes, then we should be ploughing through it and finding a way for it to be done. ie of one of can not code it then we find someone who can and kindly push for it to be implemented 17:54 sapier I don't say your ideas aren't good, they are for sure. They're just a lot of work dedicated for a very very specific scenario 17:55 sapier crazyR we're all doing this in our freetime, time spent to benefit gained ration is a BIG issue 17:56 sapier adding a feature bothering only a couple of ppl instead of fixing issues paining almost everyone is hard to explain 17:57 sapier but still, if someone wants to do this and provides the code that'd be perfectly ok 17:57 crazyR i understand that. and so are us, who put our hard earned cash into hosting these games. i aslo try to contribute code where i can. but one thing i have noticed in this community and i dont mean everyone but most people have the "if it doesnt affect me then it doesnt matter" attitiude 17:58 sapier well crazyR then you most likely met wrong ppl. Yet you can't expect us to fix only your problems. Therefore if you find others supporting your suggestions chances they'll be addressed increase 17:59 sapier minetest is free, evereyone does what she/he WANTS to do, if you need some feature you'll have to find a way to persuade someone to do it, or do it yourself 18:00 sapier and for example megaf is the only one I know using a pi for a minetest server. One person isn't enough for me to even start to do a change that big. 18:01 sapier sorry megaf, if there's no other issue we need to do this for 18:02 crazyR sapier, ive not made no problem, or had no problems to as to be fixed, so to speak, Ive been lucky enought to only need to observe and where posible help. and sapier, most of the time when i want something done i go at it my self, simply because i see to many people ask for things then se them get moan at.. "oh its not important" or "yeah what ever" the list goes on. Im not here saying to implement anything of the above. i simply made a 18:02 crazyR comment based on observation, you didnt like it and have turned it into a tit for tat debate. 18:04 sapier I don't know how long you follow MT crazyR but you should know I'm actually only interested in mob related things ... so why do I do all those things I did recently? 18:05 crazyR hmm im not sure, sapier. maybe its because your a core dev.. I would think its your responcability to put that little bit more effort into it that the average contributer. am i right? 18:06 troller sapier, because you like uselesss shitcode ;) 18:06 sapier as everyone else I still spend my freetime ... even to talk to the usuall trolls ;-P 18:06 troller maybe mojang pays you for killing MT 18:07 sapier I thought he's allready paying you troller, he wont pay two ppl 18:07 troller show my killing actions 18:08 sapier I've wasted to much time for useless discussions like that, I wont do it this time 18:08 crazyR useless.. what with me or with megaf? 18:09 sapier troller ;-) 18:09 troller so im only stopping you to killing 18:09 sapier megaf's request is perfectly fine 18:09 Calinou it would be could if we coud use P2P to load media 18:09 Calinou I wonder how hard would it be 18:09 Calinou too complex 18:09 Calinou the files are small anyway 18:10 sapier well you haven't requested anything crazyR but at least you don't tell trollers usuall "everything you do is bad" ;-) 18:10 sapier most time without giving any specific reason 18:10 troller you ignore all reasons 18:11 sapier #1241 ... is perfect example for me not ignoring complains 18:11 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1241 -- Add formspec toolkit and refactor mainmenu to use it by sapier 18:11 troller you just adding next 1000 lines 18:12 troller change one shitcode to another 18:12 sapier see what I'm talking about? ;-P 18:14 crazyR lol. come to think of it i have a suggestion....... what about haveing the minetest server side install a deamon. 1) makes our lives easier, also gives us the ability to auto restart upon crash without having to use hacky scripts 18:15 sfan5 lolwat 18:15 sapier there's nothing like a autostarting daemon on linux ;-) 18:15 sfan5 using scripts is not hacky 18:16 crazyR why isnt it hacky. its forcing a program/app/script to do something it wasnt designed to do 18:16 crazyR its doing it because we have no other choice 18:17 sapier crazyR maybe you know more then me how would you do a autostarting daemon on linx? 18:17 sfan5 no, minetest wasn't designed to be autostarted 18:17 sfan5 s/no, // 18:17 sfan5 autorestarted* 18:18 Calinou auto-restart script is fine to do 18:18 crazyR if it was intstalled as a deamon, then upstart could watch over it, if it stops responding then it could close the proccess via the pid. then start it up. 18:18 Calinou VanessaE has one 18:18 Calinou it's daemon, not deamon :p 18:18 sapier well my os doesn't have upstart 18:18 sapier bsd doesn't have too 18:18 Calinou Windows ;) 18:19 sapier and on linux that's basically a script thing 18:19 sfan5 crazyR: how would a program determine when it stops responding? 18:20 crazyR i wouldnt know, the ins and out of it. as thats not my area of expertise.. but what i do know, is i run several dedicated webserver. and nearly everything that i use is run via a deamon, the deamon is managed by upstart. and it works. any crashes are detected and a restart is started 18:21 sfan5 >a restart is started 18:21 sapier I don't know exactly what you're running but I guess it's basically same as a script 18:22 sfan5 if you use upstart with apache it is not automatically restarted 18:22 crazyR yes it is... if its setup correctly. 18:23 sfan5 no it does not 18:24 sapier and what does you stop from setting up upstart for minetest? ;-) 18:24 Megaf sapier: actually theres quite a big demand for RPi servers... 18:24 Megaf I've seen two more already on servers.minetest.net and topics about RPis on forums 18:24 crazyR ok, fine im lieing, like every other person who comes here with an idea. but. let just say for arguments sake, that your right and it does not.... then why the hell does nearly every linux proffesional software use a deamon 18:25 sapier megaf if you can find some supporters that's gonna rise quickly ... still you have to consider pi IS limited it will never be able to run as many players as a real pc 18:25 Amaz I like Megaf's RPi server. And I've played on another one. 18:26 sfan5 Megaf: boards like banana pi/odroid/pandaboard/beagleboard/cubieboard are way better suited than an rpi 18:26 Megaf Amaz: I should bring it back online 18:27 sapier crazyR who told you're lieing? 18:28 sfan5 crazyR: minetestserver is already a deamon, starting/stopping/restarting them is done by your system manager (upstart, systemd etc.); no daemon I know of does this yourself 18:28 sfan5 itself* 18:28 sfan5 +by 18:29 Megaf sfan5: really? 18:29 sfan5 yes 18:29 Megaf I never used it as daemon 18:29 Megaf alway run in place 18:30 VanessaE Calinou: http://digitalaudioconcepts.com/vanessa/hobbies/minetest/Server-scripts/minetestserver-creative.sh 18:30 sfan5 run in place does not really matter for daemon or not 18:30 sapier maybe we should first specify what a "daemon" is, I feel like we all understand different things 18:30 VanessaE all of the other server scripts are in that dir also. 18:30 crazyR lol sfan where did you read that.. we been talking abou this for what 5 mins, and you only just tell me this. well then if it runs as a deamon, then why does it attatch its self to the console 18:31 VanessaE also, hi. 18:31 crazyR Hi VanessaE 18:31 sapier ok crazyR so I assume your definition of "daemon" is a application detaching from console? 18:32 crazyR not specificly no, but that is not the normal behavour of a deamon 18:32 sfan5 crazyR: just because it does not fork into the bg does not mean it is not a deamon; init systems should be able to handle "daemons" that do not fork into bg too 18:32 sapier then be more precise because that feature is a 5 min fix ;-P 18:33 sfan5 not even 5 mins 18:33 sapier well the golden edge variant adding a configurable pid file too 18:34 crazyR ok to clear things up about what a daemon is, go rread this... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daemon_%28computing%29 18:34 crazyR then start to understand, why i dont think minetest runs as a deamon. 18:35 sfan5 if I run "minetestserver &" it would be daemon 18:35 sfan5 problem solved in 1 character 18:35 sapier ok .. so and what's the actuall benefit of doing it this way ? 18:36 sapier I know it'd be more clean ... but still a unix only feature 18:36 sfan5 windows is not designed to run something like "daemons" and that is not a problem 18:36 crazyR the beneift is, 1) deamons always have a pid file assocaited with it, meaning it would be easier to manage. easier to shut down. easier for upstart and other managment programs to monitor(for the crashes) 18:37 sfan5 >meaning it would be easier to manage. easier to shut down. 18:37 sfan5 [citation needed] 18:37 crazyR the truely run inthebackground, not just hidden 18:37 sfan5 "minetestserver&" would run in the background 18:37 sfan5 and what's running "hidden"? 18:37 crazyR citation needed?? are you off your head... to shut it down i have to do one of 2 things.. 18:38 crazyR killaa minetestserver 18:38 crazyR or look for the pid and close it that way 18:38 sfan5 >I have to do 2 things 18:38 sfan5 >foo 18:38 sfan5 >or 18:38 sfan5 >bar 18:38 sfan5 wat 18:38 sfan5 that is one thing 18:38 crazyR read 18:38 crazyR it 18:38 crazyR carefully 18:38 crazyR do get smart 18:38 sfan5 if you have a pidfile you also need to open the pidfile and kill the process, that is one thing too 18:39 sfan5 ah sorry, misread it 18:39 VanessaE minetestserver & echo $! > /var/run/minetestserver.pid 18:39 sfan5 ^ 18:39 VanessaE (I think it's $! that gets you the pid of the process 18:39 VanessaE and nevermind where I put the file, that's just off the top of my head 18:40 sapier VanessaE: he doesn't like scripts he believes them to be "hacky" 18:40 crazyR Thanks VanessaE i will experiment with that. but my point is why are we having to do it this way. 18:40 VanessaE crazyR: the entirety of the Unix world is build on scripting. you don't honestly think the files in /etc/init.d are binaries do you? 18:40 sapier linux startup was almost script only for about two decades ... but I guess that's not a valid reason for him 18:41 VanessaE many of those init scripts do exactly the same thing - they get the pid of the processes they just started so they can be used later 18:41 crazyR also sapier: i never siad i dont like scripts. i siad it should be done better 18:41 sfan5 you are implying scripts are "bad" 18:41 crazyR lol 18:41 crazyR i can see why people find it hard to suggest anythinghere 18:41 sapier >>> (20:14:39) crazyR: 18:42 sfan5 read 18:42 sfan5 it 18:42 sfan5 carefully 18:42 VanessaE crazyR: scripts are used because they're easier to customize for specific applications than binaries. 18:42 sfan5 don't get smart 18:42 sfan5 18:43 sapier "... without having to use hacky scripts" I don't se another way to interpret this as you believing scripts to be hacky 18:43 crazyR i siad hacky scripts. i never siad i dont like scripts 18:43 crazyR learnt he diffrence 18:44 crazyR *the 18:44 VanessaE and how do you define a script as being hacky? 18:44 VanessaE because of things like keepalive in the case of minetest? 18:44 sapier well in this case, just write a non hacky script to start your server and we alle are happy 18:44 crazyR that being one yeah. 18:45 sfan5 and how do you define a script as being hacky? 18:46 crazyR why you use script to force an app to do somthing it wasnt designed to do. as stated above 18:47 VanessaE crazyR: that's the sole purpose of scripting. 18:47 sfan5 ^ 18:47 VanessaE to make applications do things that they, in the singular, are not supposed to do. 18:47 sapier crazyR a programm can't supervise itself by definition 18:48 crazyR yes, but you seem to forget, that this is an app is being run to near proffessional levels. so it should be treated in the same way 18:48 sfan5 uh, what? 18:48 VanessaE just because you may only run one single application over and over (not counting containing while loop or sleep) doesn't change the fact that you're using the scripting language to do precisely what it's intended for 18:48 sfan5 how do you define "professional applications"? 18:48 VanessaE crazyR: Minetest is NOT enterprise-level software. 18:48 VanessaE no one here will make that claim. 18:49 VanessaE we'd sure like it to be, but it isn't. 18:51 crazyR no it not, and no one need to claim it, but when its being run on servers that cost in exccess of £40 + then it should be looked at as a proffesional application. when we are providing a service(allbeit a free service) to all the players out there who use our servers then its our responcability to push for it to be made to work like a proffesional app. 18:52 jin_xi you'd be surprised as of what kind of code lurks beneath many a shiny professional surface 18:52 sfan5 wat :D 18:53 sfan5 if I run "bash" on a server that costs more than €40, "bash" automagically is a "professional application"? 18:54 crazyR lol no but you should damn well trwat it like it is. why would you waste that sort of money otherwise... if you think of it as just another file sat on the hd, then you show alot of neglect. 18:54 crazyR *treat 18:55 sfan5 so "running scripts on servers that cost more than €40" = "waste of money"? 18:56 crazyR but forget about the money aspect. heck forget about the service aspect.. we use this app on a daily basis, why the hell are we "scripting" to make it do what 60% or more of us want it todo anyhow? 18:56 sfan5 crazyR: that's the sole purpose of scripting. 18:56 sfan5 did you not understand that? 18:57 sapier crazyR I guess instead of discussing this here just write a feature request on github this change is as small as you might even have a chance someone is gonna implement it while doing something else 18:59 crazyR lmao sfan is that all your going todo... copy and paste other peoples awnsers and ask for definitions. how about say something usefull or helpfull or dont say anything on this topic. sapier, i refuse to write anything on minetest's github as it turns into a warzone.. but then again, as i found out here tonight, its not worth commenting here, neither as it has the same outcome 18:59 Anchakor_ crazyR: all server hosting services are like that - shielding clients from the configuration of management of the servers, why should minetest be any different? 18:59 VanessaE wait a minute, what? 18:59 sfan5 ^ 18:59 VanessaE head --> desk 19:00 sfan5 crazyR: please clean your system of "hacky" scripts entirely; if you're done we'll see how well it runs 19:00 sfan5 also I just tried to tell you that the whole point of scripting is to make applications do things they aren't designed to 19:00 sfan5 that like.. 19:01 sapier lol crazyR you're doing to easy, once you're requested to do what any professional would do you refuse to do it 19:01 sfan5 saying CMake should support downloading libraries, building minetest (already done) & uploading it for me because I currently use "hacky" (according to your definiton) scripts to do this automatically 19:02 VanessaE crazyR: let me give you a TRUE definition of hacky: 19:03 VanessaE http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/7464277/ 19:03 VanessaE see this? 19:03 VanessaE I put this little bit of code into place yesterday because bfgminer has a bug that makes it hang up after a while. Since I can't fix it, I set up a script to kill it and restart it after 1 hour. 19:03 VanessaE THAT is hacky. 19:04 VanessaE (not exactly on-topic for this channel, but it IS a mining application... just a different kind of mining ;) ) 19:04 Anchakor_ sounds like the guy is trying to con other people into doing what is part of his job 19:05 sfan5 VanessaE: dogecoin or litecoin? 19:05 VanessaE sfan5: it pays out in dogecoin. 19:05 Megaf VanessaE: yep, Im thinking in making a script to restart mineteserserver every hour 19:05 sfan5 Megaf: why that? 19:05 puhfa is there a valid, preferred way to suggest new features or discuss about those? 19:05 VanessaE crazyR: the proper, NON-hacky way to do what I did in this script would have been to fix bfgminer to not get stuck in the first place, andjust not even bother with the do/while loop. 19:05 dsimon puhfa, write PR? ;-) 19:06 puhfa so far i have seen github pull requests and #minetest-dev discussions very quickly turn into this kind of non-productive nitpicking 19:06 VanessaE Megaf: don't restart your minetest server repeatedly. that's pointless. restart it daily when you take backups, like I do. THAT has a point. 19:06 crazyR carefull puhfa, they will ask you to citate 19:06 puhfa good point 19:06 crazyR heck my spelling is bad 19:07 sfan5 puhfa: github issues; also this mostly happens to stuff many people disagree with 19:07 puhfa anyway, i understand that there is a close-knit group formed around the core development and thats all fine and dandy, but if there is a preferred way to participate, id like to know that 19:07 puhfa if i want to rant and split hairs, i have my own channels for that 19:07 crazyR listen the point i was trying to make before it turned into this mess. is that upstart monitors the proccess... that is how it determines if the app is crashed. thus restarting it. 19:08 sfan5 crazyR: that is done the most effectively with a script 19:08 VanessaE crazyR: did you read the above script or not? 19:08 puhfa sounds like a daemon to me but im no expert on networking or operating systems. i only know that there are other oses supporting similar things even if they dont call them exactly daemons 19:08 VanessaE christ in a cartoon, did you read EITHER of the scripts I linked to?? 19:09 puhfa and yeah, you can always write a for (;;) equivalent instead 19:09 VanessaE and why the hell are we discussing this here in -dev in the first place? 19:09 crazyR Vanessae i read it but i dont see the point it writing scripts to do somthing that half the other osses have builtin scripts an apps to do the same or similar things. 19:09 crazyR the onlky thing they rely on is that the app is built correctly 19:10 VanessaE *facepalm* 19:10 puhfa thats another good question. why everything on #minetest is about placing felines on other peoples heads? 19:10 sfan5 >that half the other osses have builtin 19:10 sfan5 which OSs have that? 19:10 puhfa again, is there a preferred channel for this kind of questions? 19:10 puhfa sfan5: windows for instance does have its services 19:10 sfan5 puhfa: -dev is for development 19:10 sfan5 puhfa: windows is not important for servers 19:10 puhfa so is there a #minetest-drphil then? 19:10 crazyR lmao, 19:10 puhfa sfan5: name an os other than an unix variant that is 19:11 sfan5 bsd 19:11 puhfa touche 19:11 dsimon bsd is a unix variant :-| 19:11 sfan5 (strictly that is an unix variant too) 19:11 VanessaE crazyR: what do you mean by "built in scripts and apps to do the same"? citation needed. 19:12 VanessaE and I mean program names, paths, script names, exit status, etc. 19:12 puhfa i would still like to see people answering even one question here or directing people elsewhere if questions are not welcome on -dev, which i would perfectly understand too 19:12 puhfa or if such a channel does not exists yet (doesnt have to be an irc channel), there is apparent demand for one 19:12 puhfa +english 19:13 crazyR wow. ok upstart for linux, does the monitoring, taskmanager monitors on windows, and im sure any other os worth its name has an app to do that. so what i was saying above is why are we/ you writing scripts to that very same job 19:13 sfan5 >taskmanager monitors on windows 19:13 VanessaE puhfa: any question you want to ask regarding development of the engine (and sometimes the default games) can be asked here. 19:13 sfan5 since when does taskmanager start/restart services? 19:13 sfan5 >im sure any other os worth its name has an app to do that 19:13 sfan5 iOS, Android? 19:13 VanessaE crazyR: an app to do WHAT exactly? 19:14 puhfa VanessaE: okay. so clearly crazyR is in the wrong place then. is there any other channel he could have a better chance of getting his answers? 19:14 VanessaE to watchdog a process? 19:14 crazyR yes 19:14 crazyR pretty much 19:14 VanessaE puhfa: if he wants to take up his questions in this community, #minetest. 19:14 VanessaE crazyR: linux has such programs too. 19:14 VanessaE we just don't use them all the time because sometimes scripting is more convenient. 19:14 crazyR wow. im talking to a walll 19:14 Anchakor_ crazyR: what exactly you want? someone to write you an upstart config for MT? you have the config and want to share it? 19:15 VanessaE convenience and maintainability trumps "built-in, already does that job" nearly every single time, provided the result is not slower 19:15 puhfa okay. from what ive understood the chances of seeing any real discussion there are very slim 19:15 sfan5 crazyR: http://upstart.ubuntu.com/getting-started.html see "Writing Jobs" 19:15 sfan5 upstart uses scripts too 19:15 VanessaE puhfa: right *now*, yeah. later you can expect more relevant discussion 19:15 puhfa but i will take my rant there then and will not bother you guys anymore unless its engine related 19:16 puhfa VanessaE: so far i havent seen any :P 19:16 VanessaE puhfa: 90% of what goes on in here is strictly on-topic. this discussion here is actually quite opposite of the norm 19:17 crazyR didnt realise that my suggesion wasnt DEV based 19:17 crazyR i do appologise 19:17 VanessaE crazyR: in other words, by G*d I will use a cron job or some simply 5-10 line script if it gets the job done better for my needs than some built-in program, script, upstart job, etc. if it also means I can more easily understand and maintain that script, make it do something new, etc. 19:17 VanessaE s/simply/simple/ 19:18 Anchakor_ I run linux for almost 10 years and never got to work with upstart, heard about it maybe once 19:24 crazyR Anchakor_ I beleive thats personal choice. im sure there was other similar apps that did similar things before upstart. the point immaking is not neccerily directed towards upstart. but in genral. why should we have to create scripts to do something that most os's are capable of doing already. provided the app is built as a deamon. 19:25 sfan5 upstart is capable of running minetestserver as a daemon 19:25 sfan5 guess what it uses! 19:25 crazyR lol go on sfan5. enlighten me 19:25 sfan5 right! upstart uses scripts for that" 19:25 sfan5 S/"/!/ 19:25 sfan5 crazyR: http://upstart.ubuntu.com/getting-started.html see "Writing Jobs" 19:27 Anchakor_ well that is what people who sell gaming servers do - write scripts and manage the servers, you should be prepared to o that if you want to host servers 19:29 crazyR ahh right so your one of the few who promote hindering the learning of others through direct action, by telling them to go pay for a prebuilt pres setup server. what an idiot. 19:29 sfan5 if you want to continue insulting people please leave 19:31 crazyR sfan5> if you want to continue insulting people please leave <<--- sfan i am leaving, i dont think its fair on others to see this debate. and i really can not be bother, its not constructive in the slightest. and by the way, you saw me as being insulting, well you we're insulting to me. but then again, your a dev, you can. 19:31 sfan5 >what an idiot. 19:31 sfan5 nope 19:31 sfan5 not insulting 19:31 VanessaE crazyR: you're arguing with people who have already done this stuff 19:31 VanessaE been there, done that, GOT PAID TO DO IT. 19:31 sfan5 >you're a dev, you can 19:32 sfan5 what does being a dev have to do with it? 19:32 Anchakor_ crazyR: and you are one of those who demand others to do what you want, with no regard for the fact that it actualy has almost nothing to do with their (voluntary and unpaid) job 19:32 crazyR there is no argument. IT WAS A SUGGESTION THAT YOU GUIYS OBVIOUSLY DIDNT LIKE, AND DECIDED THAT I MUST BE BELITTLED IN ORDER TO MAKE YOUR SMALL MINDS FEEL BETTER 19:32 VanessaE crazyR: no one's belittling you. 19:32 sfan5 here you go again 19:32 crazyR really 19:33 VanessaE you're the one launching into insults here. 19:33 sfan5 I would count that as an insult 19:33 VanessaE "small minds"? 19:33 sfan5 the suggestion of adding an option for e.g. forking into bg is not bad, we like it 19:34 Anchakor_ crazyR: why didn't you just say "I wish there was an upstart script bundled with minetest" and stopped at that? 19:34 VanessaE crazyR: you're arguing for us to do shit that we don't believe is really needed in minetest at this point in its development. 19:35 crazyR Vanessae: that is my exact point "you're arguing for us to do shit that we don't believe is really needed in minetest at this point in its development." who decides what is needed. the community the ones that make suggestions or the core devs? 19:35 VanessaE sfan5: a good idea indeed, but since the same can be done with a simple ampersand, it's not needed yet. 19:35 VanessaE crazyR: a meeting of minds, but ultimately the core devs make that decision. 19:35 sfan5 crazyR: whether something is needed or not is argued with everyone, but ultimately the core devs make that decision. 19:36 Anchakor_ in short those who do the work do the decision, whether it ends up as part of a MT or a fork 19:36 dsimon Anchakor, upstart is actually relatively new on the init management scene 19:37 dsimon and it's ubuntu specific 19:37 dsimon so it's not that odd that you may not have seen it 19:37 Anchakor_ yeah, no surprise it is largery ignored 19:38 sfan5 systemd FTW 19:38 dsimon or supervisord 19:38 VanessaE no love for sysv? ;) 19:38 crazyR guys/girls/women those who arnt so sure... you are all obviously a verry close bunch. and dont like views that conflict with your own, so i wont waste any more of my time here. take care good luck. enjoy. bye 19:39 sfan5 (even if I use xubuntu myself, systemd is better[but not perfect]) 19:39 VanessaE ... 19:39 dsimon so anyways, i removed my editorconfig change from #1285 and moved it to #1301 19:39 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1285 -- Debugging visualization for MapBlock boundaries by DavidMikeSimon 19:39 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1301 -- Added editorconfig file by DavidMikeSimon 19:39 VanessaE *gasp* a core dev related question? 19:39 sfan5 :D 19:54 sapier #1302 nfc 19:54 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1302 -- Add daemon support for linux like operating systems by sapier 19:59 VanessaE sapier: see #minetest log when you get a sec. 20:34 Megaf join #odroid 20:34 Megaf oops 20:54 cerulean256 can someone describe what object:get_luaentity().collect does... i can't find this method in the docs. 21:02 sapier cerulean256: where do you have that from? 21:02 CraigyDavi cerulean256, If I'm not mistaken.. it should get the object entity and collect it in the players inventory 21:03 CraigyDavi I belive it is from item_drop mod 21:03 sapier object:get_luaentity() provides a entity while .collect accesses the "collect" member of that entity 21:05 sapier you can set whatever member you want, so I'd not be surprised if this wasn't a official api element 21:06 sapier if it's from that mod most likely the one who wrote it can tell you what he did save in that param 21:27 CraigyDavi Is this a bug? https://mediacru.sh/YdnDNoT5bnwx.png IP shows as 0.0.0.0. 21:27 proller no 21:30 CraigyDavi Ok 21:31 sapier 0.0.0.0 is "listen to all interfaces" 21:33 CraigyDavi Ah I see 21:33 cerulean256 Well PilzAdam wrote it :) 21:44 RealBadAngel hi 21:44 RealBadAngel new commit about shaders: 21:44 RealBadAngel #1303 21:45 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1303 -- Unite nodes shaders. by RealBadAngel 21:45 sapier RealBadAngel: compiles 21:45 sapier btw is there any way to stop channels from waving like big ocean? ;.) 21:46 RealBadAngel atm no 21:50 RealBadAngel and i cant even imagine how one should make connection from waving to non-waving surfaces 21:54 sapier hmm sad, can you think about it? 21:55 RealBadAngel maybe some day 21:55 sapier well waving is cool but once you have a lot of small water channels it just looks strange :-( 21:56 RealBadAngel to make them behave different way, another water would be needed 21:56 RealBadAngel i mean another node 22:08 sapier hmm maybe that wouldn't even be the worst thing 22:08 RealBadAngel like ocean_water and still_water 22:10 sapier for example ... we'd most likely need some abms for transformation too .. well a lot of finetuning 22:11 jin_xi so, i started working on a patch to fix some weird code in particles 22:11 jin_xi but now im baffled 22:12 jin_xi https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/src/script/common/c_converter.cpp#L88 so, those two functions are the same, amirite? 22:13 jin_xi read and check_v3f 22:16 sapier possible 22:16 sapier must have missed that when collecting those functions from different parts of code to a single file 22:17 jin_xi read_v3f is used mostly check_v3f only mostly in particles 22:18 jin_xi ^ fail sentence 22:19 sapier I think you should replace the check by read 22:19 jin_xi well, on a closer look, they re slighlty different 22:20 jin_xi one uses lua_tonumber the other luaL_checknumber 22:20 sapier hmmm what's the difference? 22:20 jin_xi i am wondering too 22:21 RealBadAngel better idea: on mapgen generate two kinds of water - ocean and lake/rivers 22:22 RealBadAngel only ocean water could wave 22:22 RealBadAngel then no abms needed at all 22:22 sapier hmm hard to tell the only possible difference I can imagine from docs is lua_checknumber may fail if param is a string type 22:23 jin_xi ok, so it seems tonumber is more tolerant and gives 0 when no number or numeric string is there and the other will throw error in that case 22:23 jin_xi what you said 22:23 sapier I don't know why that difference should be relevant 22:24 sapier my guess is this wasn't intentionally but only different coders writing them 22:24 jin_xi i'd rather use read 22:25 sapier well I suggest replacing check by read and then give it some time to review, maybe some other dev knows a issue we don't think about right now