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* blaise |
hides quietly in the corner to observe |
| 02:37 |
iqualfragile |
xyz, sapier, ShadowNinja: we could use socialist milionaire protocoll for password authentification |
| 02:39 |
iqualfragile |
both client and server have the clients passwordhash, so they could just test if its the same |
| 02:39 |
iqualfragile |
an attacker would then have to intercept the message the client uses to create a new account/ change his password to get it, which is a lot less likely |
| 02:45 |
iqualfragile |
(it allso makes shure the server is not fake, but i do not think that actually matters) |
| 02:45 |
iqualfragile |
*sure |
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| 09:15 |
sapier |
iqualfragile according to wikipedia socialist milionaire requires an additional "key" p. If we make that one to be hardcoded in minetest, it's useless. If it's generated on first connect (what I understand is what you suggested), you can't ever connect using a different client. |
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| 11:07 |
sapier |
john_minetest: did you do additional tests to 1090 yet? |
| 11:11 |
VanessaE |
sapier: for my servers, your 1090 pull, as it existed about 8 hours ago, just went online. Do I need to update? |
| 11:12 |
VanessaE |
that is to say, I'm at commit 9a12056dacafb8be67e95cbfcad203d234b89ae5 right now. |
| 11:13 |
VanessaE |
meh, I hate merge commits too. make that 1f1a4c9 |
| 11:15 |
VanessaE |
celeron55: about http://paste.ubuntu.com/6698208/ ... is there any point to actually applying those last couple of lines? I'm a little confused as to whether you'd decided it helped or not. |
| 11:18 |
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| 11:31 |
sapier |
tha last commit only affects low bandwidth connections |
| 11:32 |
sapier |
I recommend not to add celerons changes as they cause a lot of cpu load and will render test of networking useless |
| 11:33 |
VanessaE |
ok |
| 11:33 |
VanessaE |
I will leave my servers' configs at their normal state and just work off of what I've got from #1090 |
| 11:33 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1090 -- Network fixes udp 1 by sapier |
| 11:33 |
VanessaE |
shaddup, bot :) |
| 11:33 |
VanessaE |
(this is 1090 applied on top of a clean clone, btw) |
| 11:34 |
sapier |
but of course, once we know networking works it's worth a try according to celeron those settings will make minetest faster (if your server is fast enough) |
| 11:34 |
VanessaE |
john_minetest: rrdtool |
| 11:35 |
VanessaE |
http://digitalaudioconcepts.com/vanessa/hobbies/minetest/stats.html |
| 11:35 |
VanessaE |
in fact, I *JUST* put that online an hour ago, as you can see |
| 11:35 |
VanessaE |
(those big spikes are from the nightly backup script) |
| 11:35 |
sapier |
we tried 1090 yesterday on celerons adsl connection, with the additional fix applied it was slightly faster on downloading then master, but master didn't perform as bad as it did for you either |
| 11:36 |
sapier |
without it id did overload the adsl connection ;-) |
| 11:36 |
VanessaE |
heh |
| 11:36 |
VanessaE |
well you *do* want to be able to flood it out |
| 11:36 |
VanessaE |
but only if it's legit traffic and not tons and tons of resends/bad packets |
| 11:37 |
sapier |
yes but you have to adjust that setting if your connection is extremely slow |
| 11:37 |
VanessaE |
john_minetest: --> #minetest |
| 11:38 |
sapier |
meaning if there's no chance to send 1024*512 bytes in a single shot |
| 11:39 |
sapier |
512*554 ... I always forget overhead |
| 11:39 |
sapier |
and change wrong number 1024*554 |
| 11:44 |
VanessaE |
sapier: well in some near future, maybe you'll figure out some kind of auto-ranging feature. |
| 11:59 |
VanessaE |
not right now, busy with other stuff |
| 12:04 |
VanessaE |
turn off noclip. |
| 12:04 |
VanessaE |
they need time to generate, but that ^^^ will stop that behavior. |
| 12:04 |
VanessaE |
(they'll still need time to generate though) |
| 12:06 |
VanessaE |
sapier: potential problem... and this may have already been there and I didn't see it before: my servers are randomly disappearing from the master server list. |
| 12:07 |
VanessaE |
they'll be there on one refresh cycle, then on the next cycle one of them will be gone from the list, then it'll be a different one that's gone, etc. |
| 12:07 |
VanessaE |
john_minetest: because of things like floatlands |
| 12:07 |
VanessaE |
and there are mapgen mods that might put stuff way up high |
| 12:07 |
proller |
john_minetest, indev have floating islands |
| 12:07 |
VanessaE |
otherwise what's the use of a map that goes to +31k? |
| 12:08 |
proller |
and FM have no unloaded problem ;) |
| 12:08 |
proller |
VanessaE, Road server have ~20000 mountain |
| 12:09 |
VanessaE |
proller: case in point. |
| 12:14 |
VanessaE |
Is there some limit to how many servers can show up on the public list? |
| 12:26 |
VanessaE |
ah, figured out the server list issue. two servers fighting for the same port (a screwup when I migrated to the new host). |
| 12:26 |
VanessaE |
so I *still* don't have the announce problem that ShadowNinja was having. |
| 12:27 |
VanessaE |
for once I DON'T have a bug! :D |
| 12:27 |
VanessaE |
john_minetest: what stopped? |
| 12:28 |
proller |
VanessaE, announce problem already solved |
| 12:29 |
VanessaE |
proller: oh was it? what was the problem? |
| 12:29 |
proller |
too long get ?query= |
| 12:29 |
proller |
now it via post |
| 12:30 |
VanessaE |
ah |
| 12:30 |
VanessaE |
odd though that my servers probably issue the longest such GET commands and they worked. |
| 12:31 |
VanessaE |
oh ok. |
| 12:31 |
proller |
it was strange floating problem only for ShadowNinja |
| 12:38 |
sapier |
VanessaE I don't se a way to determin maximum server bandwidth automaticaly, I can and do this for each individual peer but that's something completely different |
| 12:39 |
VanessaE |
sapier: well I meant for some time down the road. |
| 12:40 |
sapier |
maybe but as this is supposed to be a interim solution ... |
| 12:40 |
VanessaE |
right |
| 12:40 |
VanessaE |
meanwhile: |
| 12:41 |
VanessaE |
I am connected to one of my servers, with your 1090 patch, using a vanilla mt client (at current HEAD) and it's working perfectly fine so far |
| 12:41 |
VanessaE |
just routine dig/build stuff, nothing wrong at present but theres no other-user activity right now |
| 12:42 |
sapier |
that's good, if no critical errors occur until tonight (utc) I'm gonna merge it |
| 12:42 |
VanessaE |
I would give it at least a couple of days before merging, if it can wait that long |
| 12:43 |
VanessaE |
(owing to the need to rebase, etc) |
| 12:45 |
sapier |
didn't you already try it for days? |
| 12:46 |
VanessaE |
sort of yes |
| 12:46 |
sapier |
1090 is just some refactoring |
| 12:46 |
VanessaE |
I mean, in the form of your separate fork |
| 12:46 |
VanessaE |
but not in the forum of this pull + merged against master |
| 12:46 |
VanessaE |
I'm paranoid like that :) |
| 12:47 |
sapier |
of course it's not 100% there wasn't a error on refactoring but it's dev not stable branch ;-) |
| 12:47 |
VanessaE |
did you fix that one exception that kept popping up? |
| 12:47 |
sapier |
yes |
| 12:48 |
VanessaE |
ok good |
| 12:49 |
sapier |
maybe other core devs could write their opinion too, I'd not have a problem waiting some days too |
| 12:54 |
VanessaE |
getting some reports now |
| 12:54 |
VanessaE |
three users online plus myself, seem to have no trouble playing. |
| 12:54 |
sapier |
what trouble? |
| 12:55 |
VanessaE |
no, no trouble. |
| 12:55 |
VanessaE |
one user reports losing some mese, but that was yesterday and may be a player error, not a server error. |
| 12:55 |
sapier |
oh :-= NO :-) |
| 12:56 |
sapier |
guess the word "trouble" is conotated that bad I don't see the "no" on first reading it :-) |
| 12:57 |
VanessaE |
reading comprehension FAIL :) |
| 13:02 |
VanessaE |
One user reports that they're using "4.9" (presumably 0.4.9-release) and it works fine |
| 13:20 |
VanessaE |
Still seeing a fair amount of sign-OFF lag though |
| 13:20 |
VanessaE |
(but I always exit-to-OS, so maybe it's the client crash issue and I just don't notice, as such) |
| 13:37 |
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| 13:50 |
sapier |
VanessaE that might be result of fixing singleplayer shutdown hang, if client doesn't manage to get disco out within half a second it's not sent at all ... causing peer to timeout at server |
| 14:08 |
sapier |
enet jitter calculation seems to be totally broken or is rounded to an extent beeing useless |
| 14:09 |
sapier |
to be correct not jitter calculation but rtt calculation |
| 14:26 |
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| 14:31 |
Exio4 |
the feature i would love is the "send-view-distance-to-server", it would be good for people with not-that-good networks |
| 14:34 |
ShadowNinja |
proller: I'm about 99% sure that your semi-POST commit doesn''t fix my issue. But I'll test it. |
| 14:43 |
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| 15:36 |
iqualfragile |
sapier: the key is the hashed password |
| 15:36 |
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| 15:39 |
iqualfragile |
btw: my server is still running on sapiers branch |
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| 16:45 |
sapier |
iqualfragile I did understand this different for what I read it you need a key p AND hashes to verify |
| 16:46 |
sapier |
but I could be wrong about it |
| 16:46 |
iqualfragile |
you are :D |
| 16:46 |
iqualfragile |
while there is another key in use that just gets generated |
| 16:46 |
sapier |
so I'm right |
| 16:47 |
sapier |
that one generated is the one I'm talking about |
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| 18:19 |
iqualfragile |
sapier: nah, thats allright, will still work |
| 18:19 |
sapier |
I don't understand how is this supposed to work? |
| 18:20 |
iqualfragile |
the socialist milionarie protocoll checks two values for equality |
| 18:20 |
iqualfragile |
without giving any information about their actual value |
| 18:20 |
sapier |
yes I assume this is the hash |
| 18:20 |
sapier |
but to be able to check it it requires that key "p" |
| 18:20 |
iqualfragile |
so if both the client and server have the same value (pwhash in this case) they will successfully compare it |
| 18:20 |
sapier |
that both of them need to know |
| 18:22 |
iqualfragile |
sapier: https://otr.cypherpunks.ca/Protocol-v3-4.0.0.html better description |
| 18:23 |
sapier |
that's otr wich requires to accept a common secret first |
| 18:23 |
iqualfragile |
search for socialist milin |
| 18:23 |
iqualfragile |
*milion |
| 18:26 |
xyz |
please |
| 18:26 |
xyz |
if you're going to harden security or use crypto in any way |
| 18:26 |
xyz |
do use libraries, don't write your own crypto |
| 18:26 |
proller |
lets use openssl with clients certs |
| 18:27 |
proller |
and usb tokens |
| 18:28 |
sapier |
ok iqualfragile p doesn't have to be secret so I misinterpreted this point, but I agree with xyz imho we don't have any chance to implement crypto in a save way on our own |
| 18:28 |
xyz |
correct |
| 18:29 |
sapier |
but I disagree that using libraries in general will help, security is only as good as library itself, and there are plenty of broken libs out there but just a few proofen ones |
| 18:29 |
sapier |
so decision of what library to use is as important as using a library at all |
| 18:30 |
xyz |
just use openssl |
| 18:31 |
sapier |
openssl is one of the most proven libs for sure, gnupg (used by curl) might be another option |
| 18:32 |
sapier |
yet adding encrypted communication will increase requirements for local password storing too ;-) |
| 18:33 |
sapier |
I'm not gonna implement secure communications but I won't stop anyone from doing it, and I will assist where possible of course |
| 18:36 |
iqualfragile |
libotr contains smp irrc |
| 18:36 |
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| 18:36 |
iqualfragile |
iirc |
| 18:38 |
sapier |
I'm not sure if otr is right thing to use, does anyone how it performs for large data transfers? |
| 18:39 |
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| 18:39 |
xyz |
sapier: so what do you suggest for local password storage? |
| 18:40 |
sapier |
right now I don't suggest any change but we have to talk about it once secure communication is most likely to be merged |
| 18:41 |
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| 18:42 |
celeron55 |
this is the go-to solution for cross-platform up-to-date "don't write your own crypto" things: https://github.com/jedisct1/libsodium |
| 18:42 |
xyz |
other apps just store password in plaintext and no one ever had problems with that |
| 18:44 |
celeron55 |
(using openssl is quite DIY these days) |
| 18:44 |
sapier |
"no one intends to build a wall" ... "no one is watching american citizens" ... "no one has to fear anything" ... |
| 18:44 |
celeron55 |
(and if someone wants to use openssl, use gnupg instead because of licenses) |
| 18:46 |
sapier |
and storing passwords in cleartext wasn't even state of art yesterday ... of course that doesn't stop people from using stone age softwar |
| 18:47 |
xyz |
yeah well, your point? |
| 18:48 |
xyz |
storing them in a keychain? |
| 18:48 |
xyz |
and ask for a password to this keychain which kinda defeats the purpose |
| 18:49 |
sapier |
that's the problem that solution would only help if someone regularly connects to different servers |
| 18:50 |
sapier |
but why do people compain about having to enter a password for minetest they have to do this for any web service |
| 18:51 |
xyz |
no |
| 18:51 |
xyz |
for web people can just use browser's password save |
| 18:52 |
xyz |
games typically save passwords, don't they? |
| 18:52 |
xyz |
people are used to this behavior |
| 18:52 |
sapier |
I don't know as all online games I know require some kind of "I herby sell my sole to (google/valve/apple/microsoft/....) |
| 18:54 |
celeron55 |
well just generate a keypair on the client and use public key crypto to get in like ssh 8) |
| 18:54 |
sapier |
not storing passwords in browser internal password storage is one of number one suggerstions to improve security ... everyone recommends to use a password safe which is locked by a master password |
| 18:54 |
xyz |
yet people still do that |
| 18:55 |
sapier |
yes just using ssl to encrypt connection would probably most easy and reliable way to do |
| 18:55 |
sapier |
because most ppl just can't understand what they're doing, that's not a excuse to those knowing |
| 18:57 |
xyz |
hmm... |
| 18:58 |
xyz |
sapier: your irc client stores passwords in plain text, also nice read https://developer.pidgin.im/wiki/PlainTextPasswords |
| 18:58 |
sapier |
that's why I use a nonsense password for irc |
| 18:59 |
sapier |
irc isn't encrypted anyway |
| 19:00 |
xyz |
that's not true |
| 19:00 |
ShadowNinja |
It has the option via SSL/TLS. |
| 19:00 |
sapier |
the only reason why I'm registred at all is because I lot of people kept asking me to do so, I still se no reason for doing it except of avoiding to be asked to do so twice a day |
| 19:01 |
xyz |
my point: no need to implement any security around storing passwords/hashes (like keychains, etc); if you're willing to do so then I won't object anyway since it's your time, just don't forget to add an option to turn password-protected storage off |
| 19:02 |
sapier |
basicaly this irc thing is same as minetests current security state, with the small difference that you gamers usualle know even less about security then irc users |
| 19:03 |
sapier |
as long as we don't have encrypted communication you're absolutely right about no need to encrypt hashes |
| 19:04 |
ShadowNinja |
Actually, IRC is fairly secure, in fact I know of a network that requires TLS with SHA-256, and a number of other things to keep everything securely encrypted. |
| 19:06 |
ShadowNinja |
Minetest needs some work. In fact I beleive SHA-1 was depreciated a few years ago... |
| 19:06 |
sapier |
yes |
| 19:07 |
sapier |
because it was supposed to be broken in a few years by that time, as far as I know this hasn't happend by now ... but who knows what nsa knows |
| 19:08 |
ShadowNinja |
Well, better to be overly secure than inadequately so. |
| 19:09 |
sapier |
the only reason why I demand non cleartext passwords beeing saved right now is to protect users from their own ignorance ... I assume they will use passwords the better not should use for minetest |
| 19:09 |
xyz |
sapier: nah, my point should be applied to both encrypted and unencrypted communications |
| 19:11 |
ShadowNinja |
We should also be using a long, random hash that isn't the username. |
| 19:11 |
sapier |
sorry don't understand, "your point" is disabling it? |
| 19:11 |
celeron55 |
ShadowNinja: it's not deprecated; it's deprecated for certain uses (like password hashing) |
| 19:12 |
celeron55 |
sha1 and even md5 and even md4 are fine for eg. checksumming files |
| 19:12 |
sfan5 |
how about we use crc32 for passwords? /s |
| 19:12 |
celeron55 |
sfan5: lol 8) |
| 19:12 |
sfan5 |
It is especially hard to brute force crc32 |
| 19:13 |
ShadowNinja |
celeron55: Well, what a coincidence, that's what we're using it for. ;-) |
| 19:14 |
sfan5 |
john_minetest: want a script that turns auth.txt into something understood by jtr |
| 19:15 |
sfan5 |
there is a salt too.. |
| 19:15 |
Exio4 |
is it $username-?? or $username?? |
| 19:16 |
Exio4 |
with ?? being the pwd |
| 19:16 |
xyz |
sapier: no, my point is that "no need to implement any security around storing passwords/hashes (like keychains, etc); if you're willing to do so then I won't object anyway since it's your time, just don't forget to add an option to turn password-protected storage off" |
| 19:16 |
xyz |
i didn't say anything about encrypted/unencrypted network |
| 19:17 |
sapier |
I consider storing passwords something completely different to storing hashes, maybe that's why I don't understand |
| 19:18 |
sfan5 |
Exio4: sha1(${username}${password}) IIRC |
| 19:18 |
ShadowNinja |
Exio4: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/src/util/string.cpp#L61 |
| 19:18 |
xyz |
sapier: well, i think both are fine |
| 19:56 |
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| 20:42 |
xiong |
What code base controls the public server list? |
| 20:43 |
xiong |
Do I raise an issue against 'minetest' itself? |
| 20:43 |
proller |
wat? |
| 20:44 |
xiong |
A public server list is displayed in the client main menu. This is also available, in more detail, on a web page. Where should I raise an issue against the list itself -- not the rendering of it? |
| 20:46 |
celeron55 |
it's in the main minetest repo, util/masterserver |
| 20:47 |
celeron55 |
with BlockMen about 3rd person view: http://paste.ubuntu.com/6717038/ |
| 20:47 |
xiong |
Excellent. How do, celeron55? |
| 20:47 |
celeron55 |
we probably need to whip up a preliminary lua api for setting those |
| 20:47 |
celeron55 |
but not implement it yet because lazy (and lua and networking stuff is too hard to implement anyway) |
| 20:48 |
celeron55 |
xiong: so the issue belongs in minetest's issue tracker |
| 20:48 |
xiong |
Yes, thanks. How are you doing, celeron55? |
| 20:48 |
celeron55 |
the thing that provides the list is called the masterserver (doh) and it's hosted by thexyz (so hosting issues go to him) |
| 20:49 |
celeron55 |
xiong: i'm finnish so i don't like that question! but according to your culture, i should say "fine, thanks" |
| 20:49 |
xiong |
What do Finns say? |
| 20:50 |
celeron55 |
they grumble something funny |
| 20:50 |
xiong |
Well we do that too. Some people, if you say "Good Morning!" they grumble, "What's good about it!?" |
| 20:51 |
xiong |
I meant to ask what sort of greeting you do like. |
| 20:52 |
celeron55 |
that was the answer to that question |
| 20:53 |
xiong |
Well, in any case, Greetings. |
| 20:54 |
xiong |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1092 |
| 20:56 |
celeron55 |
oh and, proller, who said "wat?", is the one who develops the masterserver |
| 20:56 |
proller |
we cant add all random flags to list |
| 20:56 |
proller |
"angry admin" |
| 20:56 |
proller |
"griefers disalloewed" |
| 20:57 |
celeron55 |
i'd guess just prefixing the server name with "TEST: " would be enough |
| 20:57 |
celeron55 |
...as proller already commented on the issue (slow me) |
| 20:59 |
proller |
now you can see at "uptime" and "age" of server map - it it low (less than hour) - server 99% temporary |
| 20:59 |
celeron55 |
anyway about this: http://paste.ubuntu.com/6717038/ |
| 21:00 |
celeron55 |
or, really, nothing in particular about that; but there's that and it seems to largely work while not messing with a terrible amount of stuff |
| 21:00 |
celeron55 |
and it seems to be wanted by a number of people |
| 21:00 |
celeron55 |
so i will merge some variant of it unless someone objects or wants to develop it more |
| 21:01 |
celeron55 |
(and that is 3rd person view, for the logs) |
| 21:01 |
xiong |
Testing may go on a long time; live servers may go down for backup every day. The concept of a testing server is a personal view that must be expressed; it cannot be inferred. |
| 21:02 |
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| 21:02 |
celeron55 |
yes; name and description are for those personal views that cannot be inferred |
| 21:03 |
xiong |
There may be a practical limit to the number of flags displayed in the list; however an identical argument can be made against any such flag: C, D, P, etc. |
| 21:03 |
celeron55 |
in fact, most of the flags could be inferred by joining the server |
| 21:03 |
xiong |
The point of a flag is to indicate to a player whether he might want to attempt to join at all. |
| 21:04 |
xiong |
Whether the server is testing or live is a critical point. I mandate no metadata in identifiers; that's the Hungarian bump route. |
| 21:04 |
celeron55 |
but the meaning of "testing" is very fuzzy too |
| 21:04 |
celeron55 |
for someone it might mean something completely different than for someone else |
| 21:04 |
xiong |
Everything is fuzzy. |
| 21:04 |
celeron55 |
flags are gotten from actual server configuration |
| 21:04 |
celeron55 |
so they aren't fuzzy |
| 21:05 |
xiong |
Why debate this so hard? It's an obviously good idea. If you don't like it, I can't force it. |
| 21:05 |
xiong |
You don't gain anything additional by "proving" me wrong. |
| 21:05 |
proller |
maybe i want "dev" "RC" "stable" flags to my server.. |
| 21:05 |
BlockMen |
celeron55, some variant of it? |
| 21:06 |
celeron55 |
yes i don't; but as it seems proller doesn't see the need for it and i don't particularly care, i'm trying to see if you have some argument for it that would make sense for everyone |
| 21:06 |
xiong |
Yes, proller; that's would be okay too -- except the additional complexity now needs to be explained. 'T' is well understood. |
| 21:06 |
celeron55 |
BlockMen: assuming someone develops it more |
| 21:06 |
xiong |
celeron55, it's like a lot of things: blatantly obvious. |
| 21:07 |
celeron55 |
let's just wait for someone else to come up and comment |
| 21:07 |
xiong |
If you think you can set the flag programmatically, great. Accumulate uptime data and set a bar. Therefore all servers join the list with T set; and that flag is only cleared after crossing that performance standard. |
| 21:08 |
BlockMen |
ic. in general i will continue developing it, but ofc other can take care of it too |
| 21:08 |
xiong |
I've come to notice that the majority of servers in the public list are unplayable for one reason or another. I've also come to believe that many are not intended to be played. I know I run a testing server and I tell players upfront to expect nothing. |
| 21:09 |
proller |
maybe UNSTABLE flag if uptime less ~30 minutes and age less ~2 days |
| 21:09 |
celeron55 |
why is it in the list then? |
| 21:09 |
celeron55 |
maybe you have misunderstood the purpose of the list and maybe it shouldn't even contain those testing servers |
| 21:09 |
celeron55 |
(i don't know the purpose of the list) |
| 21:10 |
sapier |
celeron that mesh fix floods console |
| 21:11 |
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| 21:11 |
celeron55 |
sapier: what is "that mesh fix" |
| 21:11 |
sapier |
now on activation of each entity a "Loaded mesh: .... " is show |
| 21:12 |
celeron55 |
i know |
| 21:12 |
celeron55 |
also it re-loads them every time without caching a single one; there's a comment in the code about that with a suggestion of improvement |
| 21:12 |
xiong |
proller, servers do go down for daily backup -- just restarting the server regularly seems to improve matters, deal with leaked memory and so forth. So it's asking too much to say that the server should be running continuously for X hours. |
| 21:12 |
sapier |
I haven't explicitly checked but I guess this is it https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/d76957ee22c27adab89cee551e3ab1c85d8717cc |
| 21:14 |
xiong |
However, a given address *and* port -- since multiple servers run from one address -- will accumulate some % of uptime. I'd say, roughly, 95% uptime with restart intervals averaging 6 hours or more constitutes stability. |
| 21:15 |
xiong |
Still, please provide a setting that operators can use to override and declare a testing server regardless of uptime. I ran a testing server for a week without a restart and wiped it without regret or notice. |
| 21:16 |
xiong |
Note that the client does not display enough characters in each item to permit verbose descriptions, which are only available after user has selected. |
| 21:16 |
proller |
why tou cant place TESTING: to name? |
| 21:17 |
xiong |
Because then that's the entire displayed name. |
| 21:17 |
celeron55 |
do enough users understand the flags in any case? |
| 21:17 |
celeron55 |
a flag is not some magic wand of understanding |
| 21:17 |
xiong |
C clearly is creative; P is, I imagine, PvP. I don't know what D means. |
| 21:17 |
xiong |
No; nothing is magic. :( |
| 21:18 |
xiong |
Might be nice to explain the flags in the client, too. |
| 21:19 |
celeron55 |
...well, they're probably going to be replaced by images once someone manages to get that functionality in the gui system |
| 21:19 |
Calinou |
D = Dedicated |
| 21:19 |
Calinou |
err no |
| 21:19 |
Calinou |
it's Damage enabled |
| 21:19 |
celeron55 |
even i don't know what those flags mean, lol |
| 21:19 |
Calinou |
* is password required |
| 21:20 |
Calinou |
"Ded" stands for dedicated, it's a flag that doesn't appear in-game, only on the web list |
| 21:20 |
Calinou |
it appears if the server is not run from a client |
| 21:20 |
Calinou |
"liq" is finite liquid, also doesn't appear in-game |
| 21:20 |
Calinou |
"rol" is rollback, I guess |
| 21:21 |
kaeza |
"password required" flag is kinda useless, as you can check that by simply trying to join |
| 21:21 |
celeron55 |
kaeza: you can check everything by trying to join |
| 21:21 |
Exio4 |
you can know if it is creative by joining too |
| 21:21 |
Exio4 |
damn |
| 21:21 |
celeron55 |
we don't need even names, just join and see 8D |
| 21:21 |
Exio4 |
^ |
| 21:21 |
kaeza |
celeron55, you can't know if it's survival or creative before actually joining |
| 21:21 |
kaeza |
but meh |
| 21:22 |
celeron55 |
anyway, i'm not against the flag; if more people would like it, tell that to proller |
| 21:23 |
celeron55 |
(this you should be doing without me requesting it) |
| 21:23 |
kaeza |
I'm not against it, just giving an opinion |
| 21:24 |
kaeza |
(I almost never play online anyway because crappy 3G) |
| 21:24 |
xiong |
It's possible to argue that it's pointless to describe any server in the public list because players don't care and join randomly, wreak havoc, and move on. |
| 21:24 |
proller |
[far future] in game flags must be show as images with hover tooltip with long description |
| 21:25 |
xyz |
I think it's already possible with kahrl's formspec table |
| 21:25 |
xyz |
at least images are |
| 21:26 |
sapier |
guess we should merge the formspec table soon |
| 21:27 |
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| 21:32 |
celeron55 |
what's stopping it from being merged? |
| 21:32 |
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| 21:33 |
sapier |
as far as I know the only reason is no one did it by now |
| 21:42 |
ShadowNinja |
Are nodeboxes still "EXPERIMENTAL"? I think not... |
| 21:44 |
ShadowNinja |
I'll fix this in a minute: <Peacock> https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/doc/lua_api.txt#L2013 <--- missing "wielditem" |
| 21:46 |
ShadowNinja |
The only other thing marked experimental is the HUD API, I guess that's unlikely to drasticaly change at this point too, although maybe not. |
| 21:59 |
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| 22:19 |
ShadowNinja |
I'll push #1084 in a while too. |
| 22:19 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1084 -- Add InvRef::get/set_lists() by ShadowNinja |
| 22:21 |
ShadowNinja |
hmmmm: Can you look at #1061? |
| 22:21 |
ShadowBot |
ShadowNinja: Error: ProcessTimeoutError: Process #230 (for String.re) aborted due to timeout. |
| 22:22 |
ShadowNinja |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1061 -- Crash with no error message with `minetest.place_schematic` and table schematic specifier. |
| 22:23 |
ShadowNinja |
kahrl: Is this ready? https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/920 |
| 22:27 |
ShadowNinja |
I don't like how this means that players have to be kept loaded: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/804 |
| 22:33 |
ShadowNinja |
This seems good, any comments? https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/706 |
| 22:39 |
sapier |
for most other formspec elements scale factors are multiples of inventory item size is this different in hud? |
| 22:43 |
ShadowNinja |
GCC warnings: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/6717607/ clang has a whole bunch of them: https://travis-ci.org/minetest/minetest/jobs/16617091 |
| 22:43 |
ShadowNinja |
sapier: The HUD uses percentage values and pixels. |
| 22:44 |
sapier |
hmm someone musthave been sleeping when this was added :-( |
| 22:44 |
ShadowNinja |
sapier: The formspec or the HUD? :-) |
| 22:46 |
sapier |
as formspec was there before hud should've been implemented consistent ... but it's to late so we need to ensure consistency within each somehow separate thing ... lets hope noone ever wants to use formspecs as hud elements |
| 22:47 |
ShadowNinja |
sapier: No, the formspec system doesn't scale to the HUD at all, it's essentially pixel values multiplied by some unknown number. |
| 22:47 |
sapier |
the "unknown" number is calculated as fraction of current window size ... same as inventory item sizes |
| 22:48 |
sapier |
that's why formspecs grow if you increase window |
| 22:48 |
sapier |
except of mainmenu I added a fixed size mod for this |
| 22:50 |
ShadowNinja |
That's hacky. |
| 22:50 |
sapier |
yes but pilzadam insisted on mainmenu having fixed size |
| 22:51 |
ShadowNinja |
Just use percentage values. It would be nice if the HUD was just a 100% width formspec with a clear background that didn't prevent playing. |
| 22:51 |
sapier |
you could use this from in game too if you had a parameter in size field |
| 22:51 |
sapier |
sorry but I think we're talking about different things |
| 22:52 |
ShadowNinja |
+pixel values for things that need to be absolute. |
| 22:52 |
sapier |
as you tell hud already does use pixel values so it has to use them in future too |
| 22:53 |
sapier |
while formspec doesn't so it can't switch to pixel anytime soon too |
| 22:54 |
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| 22:54 |
emptty |
Hello there |
| 22:54 |
ShadowNinja |
Well, formspecs badly need a redesign. The inventory item scale thing can be changed then. |
| 22:55 |
emptty |
Can the recent versions of minetest be built without luajit ? |
| 22:55 |
sapier |
you know my opinion about formspecs, bad but not as bad as requireing immediate action |
| 22:56 |
emptty |
I have a bug against the debian package because luajit is not available on some of our architectures: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=734461 |
| 22:56 |
sapier |
as far as I know lua is still default |
| 23:16 |
ShadowNinja |
emptty: Yes, but only by removing the system lib or modifying CMakeLists.txt. |
| 23:18 |
emptty |
ShadowNinja: I'm currently trying to compile on an host where lua-dev is installed but not luajit(-dev), and cmake didn't complain |
| 23:18 |
emptty |
I'll soon tell you whether it compiles till the end, and whether it works afterward |
| 23:19 |
ShadowNinja |
emptty: Lua 5.1 is bundled. |
| 23:19 |
emptty |
not in the debian package. It's prunned |
| 23:19 |
ShadowNinja |
Well, that's good. |
| 23:20 |
emptty |
we use the system libs as much as possible. We are a distro ;) |
| 23:20 |
ShadowNinja |
But apparently the lib location varies by distro, so we can't do that. |
| 23:20 |
emptty |
sure |
| 23:22 |
ShadowNinja |
What happened to the travis integration in pull requests? It still builds pulls, but the results don't show up. |
| 23:22 |
ShadowNinja |
xyz: Do you know anything about ^? |
| 23:24 |
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| 23:29 |
emptty |
of course I had to patch a bit the CMakeList.txt to build with the system lua when luajit is not available, but it seems under control |
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