| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 00:06 |
kahrl |
ShadowNinja: check if the index fits into the vector, and call resize() if not? |
| 00:33 |
|
smoke_fumus joined #minetest-dev |
| 00:38 |
|
us_0gb joined #minetest-dev |
| 00:48 |
|
domtron joined #minetest-dev |
| 00:50 |
|
rsiska joined #minetest-dev |
| 00:55 |
|
EvergreenTree joined #minetest-dev |
| 01:26 |
|
kaeza joined #minetest-dev |
| 01:28 |
|
domtron joined #minetest-dev |
| 01:44 |
|
djdduty joined #minetest-dev |
| 01:52 |
|
kaeza joined #minetest-dev |
| 02:13 |
|
domtron joined #minetest-dev |
| 02:15 |
sapier1 |
ok I think I'm done with investigating minetest networking issues https://github.com/sapier/minetest/tree/server_improvement is as good as it will get, it's capable of downloading 170 mb textures in < 5 min, can handle >100 simultaneous bots without stalling and is really reliable (at least compared to current version) |
| 02:16 |
iqualfragile_ |
faptastic, is it backwardscompatible? |
| 02:16 |
iqualfragile_ |
sapier1: ? |
| 02:16 |
sapier1 |
there are two issues I can't fix without breaking old clients: |
| 02:16 |
sapier1 |
-maximum filesize for textures limited to 16MB |
| 02:16 |
sapier1 |
-lack of cumulative ack |
| 02:17 |
iqualfragile_ |
how does lack of cumulative ack affect clients? |
| 02:17 |
sapier1 |
As far as I can tell it is compatible, yet old clients may still suffer from the bugs in their stack, but chance to happen is reduced dramatic |
| 02:18 |
iqualfragile_ |
great, lets test it |
| 02:18 |
sapier1 |
it's a performance feature, each packet has to be acknowledged itself, tcp for example acknowledges last of a bunch of packets only. Sender receiving an ack can be sure all previous packages are completed |
| 02:19 |
sapier1 |
and in combination with our 16 bit sequence number this is really painfull |
| 02:23 |
iqualfragile_ |
throws some warnings when compiling |
| 02:23 |
sapier1 |
yes just ignore them for now |
| 02:24 |
sapier1 |
btw this won't help if it's client side only, don't expect it to behave any better on connecting to an old server |
| 02:33 |
iqualfragile_ |
sapier1: yes, i am using your code on my server |
| 02:35 |
sapier1 |
there are some possible optimization points in this code but those need better measuring methods to adjust to correct direction |
| 02:38 |
iqualfragile_ |
well, mineguild.de uses that branch for now |
| 02:39 |
sapier1 |
please note it's still beta there's almost nothing same as before |
| 02:39 |
iqualfragile_ |
i am aware of that |
| 02:39 |
iqualfragile_ |
my server allways runs latest git of everything |
| 02:40 |
sapier1 |
I didn't even look at how much I actually have changed |
| 02:40 |
iqualfragile_ |
its there to break |
| 02:40 |
sapier1 |
and it contains my server.cpp split too |
| 02:41 |
sapier1 |
and a outdated version of mutex queue fix (functionnames changed in latest version of mutex queue fix) |
| 02:44 |
E4xoi |
better |
| 02:45 |
sapier1 |
what is "better"? |
| 02:46 |
E4xoi |
sapier: try even more pulls-that-should-get-merged at once! :P |
| 02:46 |
sapier |
network fixes are not supposed to be merged |
| 02:47 |
sapier |
the other ones are separate commits, network fixes require mutex queue fixes in order to work at all |
| 02:49 |
|
domtron joined #minetest-dev |
| 03:11 |
|
kaeza joined #minetest-dev |
| 03:12 |
OWNSyouAll |
Is it possible to set the size of heart.png? |
| 03:21 |
|
jojoa1997 joined #minetest-dev |
| 03:52 |
|
sapier left #minetest-dev |
| 03:54 |
|
domtron joined #minetest-dev |
| 04:08 |
|
domtron joined #minetest-dev |
| 04:11 |
|
NakedFury joined #minetest-dev |
| 04:15 |
OWNSyouAll |
cause you can't see shit when yout set the heart size higher than like 32x32 |
| 04:15 |
VanessaE |
been there, complained about that, got told to sit down, shut up, this is how it's gonna be. |
| 04:16 |
VanessaE |
(the heart needs to be less than about 19x19) |
| 04:16 |
|
darkrose joined #minetest-dev |
| 04:16 |
|
darkrose joined #minetest-dev |
| 04:32 |
|
OldCoder joined #minetest-dev |
| 04:46 |
OWNSyouAll |
Well found the max texture size you get bad allocation when attempting to load textures of 4096 x 4096 |
| 04:48 |
VanessaE |
most vid cards don't like textures > 2048px anyways, so I thought? |
| 04:49 |
ShadowNinja |
OWNSyouAll: What was the size of the texture? (Filesize-wise) |
| 04:50 |
OWNSyouAll |
ShadowNinja, biggest one is 3MB all the others are about 50KB |
| 04:51 |
OWNSyouAll |
VanessaE, appears to be 65536 according to http://blog.cuvilib.com/2010/06/09/nvidia-cuda-difference-between-fermi-and-previous-architectures/ |
| 04:52 |
OWNSyouAll |
ShadowNinja, Sorry 9.5MB is the biggest |
| 04:54 |
OWNSyouAll |
ShadowNinja, Dosen't appear that one 4k texture crashes it but it might be i'm hitting the memory limit |
| 04:55 |
ShadowNinja |
Minetest's limit is 16-32MB per file, that's why I was wondering. |
| 04:55 |
ShadowNinja |
(In the net code) |
| 04:56 |
OWNSyouAll |
I'm not using the net though just singleplayer |
| 04:59 |
ShadowNinja |
Singleplayer still uses a network connection in the background. |
| 04:59 |
thexyz |
but you do |
| 05:00 |
ShadowNinja |
Would be nice if it supported unix sockets.' |
| 05:07 |
|
Weedy joined #minetest-dev |
| 05:17 |
|
Miner_48er joined #minetest-dev |
| 05:25 |
OWNSyouAll |
"you hacker you!" |
| 05:25 |
OWNSyouAll |
well that was unexpected |
| 06:52 |
|
domtron joined #minetest-dev |
| 07:35 |
|
domtron joined #minetest-dev |
| 09:03 |
thexyz |
ShadowNinja: what's the point of that? |
| 09:05 |
|
Akien joined #minetest-dev |
| 09:34 |
|
Megaf joined #minetest-dev |
| 09:49 |
|
Megaf joined #minetest-dev |
| 09:56 |
|
Calinou joined #minetest-dev |
| 10:24 |
|
Gethiox joined #minetest-dev |
| 10:25 |
|
Jordach joined #minetest-dev |
| 10:26 |
thexyz |
something's not very right https://gist.github.com/xyzz/483e1db06d6b4707134d/raw/c8c1f1ff4ca540ea81f479bb0cb5a0068f5ed815/gistfile1.txt |
| 10:44 |
|
john_minetest joined #minetest-dev |
| 10:46 |
|
proller joined #minetest-dev |
| 11:02 |
|
sapier joined #minetest-dev |
| 11:05 |
sapier |
thexyz seems to be the connection unit test, happens to me sometimes too, no idea how to fix it to work better in multithreaded environment, but it did happen with current dev before too |
| 11:05 |
|
iqualfragile joined #minetest-dev |
| 11:06 |
|
PilzAdam joined #minetest-dev |
| 11:18 |
|
iqualfragile_ joined #minetest-dev |
| 11:23 |
|
john_cephalopoda joined #minetest-dev |
| 11:43 |
|
VanessaE joined #minetest-dev |
| 11:43 |
|
john_cephalopoda joined #minetest-dev |
| 11:54 |
|
iqualfragile_ joined #minetest-dev |
| 11:57 |
thexyz |
sapier: what's your connection speed you got 5 minutes for 170 mb of data on? |
| 11:58 |
sapier |
<5 min ... i haven't found a way to do a precise mesurement ... but it's way from comparable to ftp or http |
| 11:58 |
sapier |
best thing is compare 5 min to copy 170 mb on your machine ... so quite slow |
| 11:59 |
thexyz |
"connection speed" |
| 11:59 |
thexyz |
ah, it's localhost? |
| 11:59 |
sapier |
yes |
| 11:59 |
|
Gethiox joined #minetest-dev |
| 11:59 |
thexyz |
alright |
| 12:00 |
sapier |
but there's at least another bug left |
| 12:01 |
sapier |
argh gdb pretty printing doesn't work on -O0 |
| 12:17 |
iqualfragile_ |
sapier: wasnt some special debug -O introduced lately |
| 12:19 |
sapier |
something like "-DCMAKE_BUILD_TYPE="Debug_yes_really_DEBUG" |
| 12:23 |
thexyz |
why can't it just be changed to -O0 by default? |
| 12:25 |
sapier |
I was punched for doing this accidently multiple times |
| 12:27 |
sapier |
iqualfragile_: I fixed your client side crash, it's been a invalid assertion checking something completely different it was supposed to check only |
| 12:28 |
sapier |
john_minetest: everyone ducks and sneaks a way as soon as you mention something like "win32", "windows" "msvc" "cygwin" ... and some other keywords |
| 12:29 |
sapier |
yes that's the sad thing about it |
| 12:31 |
sapier |
we will fix it ... but I guess noone wants to do win32 fixes on christmas eve ... at least I can't motivate myself to fix my windows build right now ... everytime I did this it tool 2-4 hours |
| 12:32 |
sapier |
for windows everyone seems to be fine if it builds within his special build env, noone seems to even try to get it generic |
| 12:32 |
sapier |
or has given up on trying to do so |
| 12:33 |
sapier |
usually minetest doesn't compile on win32 without prior fixing |
| 12:34 |
sapier |
at least that's my experience |
| 12:34 |
iqualfragile_ |
john_minetest: false, most of the users use android |
| 12:35 |
sapier |
no idea if someone already did this fixes the last times |
| 12:35 |
sapier |
iqualfragile do my fixes work for you? |
| 12:36 |
sapier |
as far as I know delayed for unspecified time |
| 12:36 |
sapier |
seems I'm the only one who really wanted a christmas release and I can't do it on my own |
| 12:41 |
sapier |
ok I do a single try if it's going to work you get it if not skip for today |
| 12:45 |
|
blaaaaargh joined #minetest-dev |
| 12:45 |
sapier |
... I already said I give it a try |
| 12:46 |
sapier |
I did not say it's gonna work |
| 12:50 |
|
nore joined #minetest-dev |
| 12:51 |
|
jin_xi joined #minetest-dev |
| 12:54 |
proller |
i have 30-100 RE-SENDING timed-out RELIABLE to per second.. |
| 12:55 |
sapier |
ok seems to require some tweaking |
| 12:56 |
sapier |
guess automatic timeout adjustment isn't doing that fine ;-) |
| 12:58 |
sapier |
does anyone remember command for building a zip ? |
| 12:58 |
proller |
yes, enet tweaking |
| 12:59 |
sapier |
ok as we're talking about tweaking did you start tweaking enet to support old clients yet? ;-P |
| 13:03 |
proller |
its useless |
| 13:04 |
sapier |
so are some of your comments |
| 13:05 |
sapier |
it's fine you tell issues you find, and I'm thankfull for them |
| 13:06 |
sapier |
freeminer has about 2 months of good fixes in it it's a pitty you refuse to prepare them for minetest integration |
| 13:07 |
proller |
git merge freeminer/master |
| 13:07 |
proller |
anything is ready ^ |
| 13:08 |
sapier |
why even do this? just persuade community to drop minetest? |
| 13:09 |
sapier |
you still don't understand why we don't want commits titled "better" "ugh" "tuning" in our commit history ... do you? |
| 13:12 |
thexyz |
ugh |
| 13:13 |
sapier |
no I won't look for the exact wording everytime I mention this ;-) |
| 13:13 |
sapier |
you know what I'm talking about ;-) |
| 13:14 |
sapier |
to me freeminer is a nice play fork containing some interesting things, but you can't expect others to do the work of exptracting those things to mergable potions |
| 13:16 |
sapier |
it's out of question everyone will support you on doing so but as of my understanding this is primary your work to do |
| 13:17 |
|
zat joined #minetest-dev |
| 13:20 |
proller |
my primary work - make good playable game |
| 13:21 |
sapier |
if you don't even want to understand I can't help and will stop trying to explain to you |
| 13:24 |
sapier |
One last try ... proller did you ever think about how you would feel if someone demands you to review thousands and thousands of uncommented unexplained changes? |
| 13:25 |
sapier |
... waiting for "you don't have to review it just merge it"... |
| 13:27 |
|
domtron joined #minetest-dev |
| 13:29 |
proller |
++i; //increase value of i by one |
| 13:31 |
sapier |
seems you're even to ignorant to understand what term "commenting" is meant to be |
| 13:32 |
thexyz |
seems you're only interested in insulting other people instead of doing work |
| 13:33 |
sapier |
thexyz if you had a single look to commit history you'd know it's you insulting others by doing false accusations |
| 13:33 |
thexyz |
please don't be mean to people even if you don't like how they do things |
| 13:34 |
sapier |
it's not about liking things, do you really think minetest shoud add hundreds of commits with non sense commit messages ? DO YOU? |
| 13:34 |
thexyz |
I've already said this, I don't care about minetest for now, I think the development process is flawed here |
| 13:35 |
sapier |
I want a answer YES or NO |
| 13:35 |
|
rsiska joined #minetest-dev |
| 13:35 |
sapier |
come on put your pants town and tell what you think |
| 13:35 |
thexyz |
I don't care, that's the answer |
| 13:35 |
thexyz |
your question is invalid, by the way |
| 13:35 |
sapier |
so why do you insult others who care? |
| 13:36 |
thexyz |
I don't insult anybody |
| 13:36 |
thexyz |
it's you who say those mean things always |
| 13:36 |
sapier |
telling me to insult someone I want to explain why some things are done this way is insulting to me |
| 13:37 |
thexyz |
I've never told you to insult someone |
| 13:37 |
sapier |
"seems you're only interested in insulting other people instead of doing work" ? |
| 13:37 |
proller |
if its hundreds of good commits - no problem. |
| 13:38 |
sapier |
no proller good work doesn't weight up bad work in this case |
| 13:40 |
sapier |
we can fix broken code by new commits but we can't fix a broken history with justifyable effort |
| 13:41 |
proller |
you make game or history ? |
| 13:42 |
sapier |
if you want to maintain a project you need a usefull history ... lack of it may not a problem in short term but will be in mid and long term development |
| 13:44 |
sapier |
john_minetest: http://animalsmod.comuf.com/downloads/minetest-0.4.8-dev-20131224-sapier-mingw32.7z try this one, no guarantee for anything built this on my windows box which is a playground only |
| 13:46 |
proller |
++i; //increase value of i by one, it can broke game if i>65534 |
| 13:47 |
proller |
john_minetest, okay, WHAT broke windows and freebsd threads? and how to fix it? |
| 13:47 |
proller |
you have good history! |
| 13:48 |
sapier |
proller why do you always try to put most extreme example? we don't expect comments like those noone ever requested this |
| 13:48 |
|
john_minetest joined #minetest-dev |
| 13:48 |
|
john_minetest joined #minetest-dev |
| 13:48 |
sapier |
the only thing we absolutely demand is a commit message telling what a author intended to do with a commit ... this our first hint to see if the code can even to what was intended |
| 13:49 |
thexyz |
have we actually solved any issue with the help of glorious history minetest has? |
| 13:49 |
thexyz |
I mean |
| 13:49 |
sapier |
and we demand reasonable small pulls, one feature one pull request |
| 13:49 |
thexyz |
there're like 3 commits |
| 13:49 |
|
ShadowNinja joined #minetest-dev |
| 13:49 |
thexyz |
and you go all shit on them |
| 13:49 |
thexyz |
every time someone mentions Freeminer here |
| 13:50 |
|
john_minetest joined #minetest-dev |
| 13:50 |
sapier |
last time history beeing usefull I remember was finding the commit making entity duplication worse instead of better |
| 13:50 |
|
john_minetest joined #minetest-dev |
| 13:50 |
sapier |
thexyz because this is the primary reason for all this mess! |
| 13:52 |
sapier |
most of us did refuse to review prollers changes for ages because of not knowing what to review at all |
| 13:52 |
thexyz |
sapier: three commits is the primary reason for all this mess, noted |
| 13:52 |
sapier |
which three? |
| 13:53 |
|
Neological joined #minetest-dev |
| 13:54 |
thexyz |
dunno, you always talk about them |
| 13:54 |
sapier |
I didn't ever tell about three commits? |
| 13:55 |
sapier |
what are you talking about? |
| 13:57 |
|
Jordach_ joined #minetest-dev |
| 13:57 |
|
kahrl_ joined #minetest-dev |
| 13:57 |
sapier |
and btw thexyz and proller if you didn't realize, I want to find a way to get fixes from freeminer to minetest. The only suggestion you make is just merge everything at once, but this isn't an option. So if you don't move a single mm I can't help no matter how hard I try |
| 13:58 |
|
xrogaan joined #minetest-dev |
| 13:58 |
|
xrogaan joined #minetest-dev |
| 13:58 |
proller |
my small useless messages was from other rule - "rebase anything 2 times per day" |
| 13:59 |
sapier |
yes and this is true for all of us proller, do you think you're the only one beeing annoyed about it? |
| 13:59 |
sapier |
I usually rebase any commit about 10 times prior getting merged (some more some less) |
| 14:02 |
thexyz |
well if everyone is annoyed then why not get rid of this rule? |
| 14:02 |
sapier |
what rule? |
| 14:02 |
|
naxthesurvivor_ joined #minetest-dev |
| 14:03 |
sapier |
rebase prior merge? because it's the only way to get a straight history |
| 14:03 |
sapier |
and there's no difference between rebasing and merge (as of work to be done) |
| 14:06 |
thexyz |
no, not really |
| 14:07 |
thexyz |
often people are asked to rebase their pull requests multiple times |
| 14:07 |
sapier |
actually it is if you did squash your commits prior rebase |
| 14:07 |
thexyz |
well honestly, talking about the history is not the most productive thing we can do |
| 14:07 |
sapier |
true |
| 14:07 |
sapier |
we need to find a way to do it better in future |
| 14:08 |
thexyz |
I just think we should stop caring that much about history and care about code instead |
| 14:08 |
sapier |
no |
| 14:08 |
thexyz |
the forcepush being allowed is another case of it |
| 14:08 |
thexyz |
ah fine |
| 14:08 |
thexyz |
do whatever you want then |
| 14:08 |
sapier |
"history" as of things beeing done in past should be ignored for future discussions |
| 14:09 |
thexyz |
just don't expect others to do the same |
| 14:09 |
sapier |
but history as of timeline of changes is important |
| 14:09 |
thexyz |
and don't be upset when someone else calls your way of doing things ridiculous, too |
| 14:10 |
sapier |
maybe we should do a poll about this right now it's proller and you who don't care about history which is very very important for coordinating work. For example I usually read commit log to see what happended. |
| 14:10 |
|
proller joined #minetest-dev |
| 14:10 |
|
dzho joined #minetest-dev |
| 14:11 |
sapier |
and me defending this ... all others seem to either rely on me defending or you not requireing it ... but haven't told about their real attitude |
| 14:17 |
thexyz |
it's not that i don't care about history |
| 14:17 |
thexyz |
also you shouldn't even ask me since I don't contribute to Minetest much those days |
| 14:18 |
|
domtron joined #minetest-dev |
| 14:18 |
thexyz |
better ask active contributors |
| 14:26 |
Exio4 |
tell me what https://github.com/freeminer/freeminer/commit/664e6813be456998e0c5b7cf3096bc4643418792 does |
| 14:30 |
Exio4 |
https://github.com/freeminer/freeminer/commit/149a2c99084edb8ed486e7ac2d188f6e28150466 why this |
| 14:32 |
thexyz |
ah, I guess proller forgot to squash them before pushing |
| 14:33 |
Exio4 |
there are some good ones |
| 14:33 |
Exio4 |
but because there are some like thoses, the controversy 'and shit' |
| 14:33 |
sapier |
yes latest freeminer commit seem to get better |
| 14:33 |
Exio4 |
there are a lot of changes i would like to see in minetest |
| 14:34 |
Exio4 |
but that applies to changes that i would revert locally if i could (without breaking compatibility) |
| 14:35 |
sapier |
me too exio4 but I feel betrayed proller claiming all the fun (coding) for himself and forcing others to do the administrative tasks(squash, comment, prepare for review, fix review comments) |
| 14:36 |
|
nore joined #minetest-dev |
| 14:36 |
thexyz |
no one forces you to do this |
| 14:38 |
sapier |
either this way or argueing about not finding anything in hundreds of nonses commit messages in about half a year |
| 14:39 |
thexyz |
well so what's the problem? |
| 14:39 |
sapier |
I don't know your background proller and thexyz but just have a look at any good oss project I guess you won't find a lot of broken commit messages |
| 14:39 |
Exio4 |
yay |
| 14:39 |
Exio4 |
found the merge commit https://github.com/freeminer/freeminer/commit/32d43bbcb00db2d206e366caf70b82673b0ceb21 |
| 14:40 |
sapier |
yes I already found it by reverse engeneering yesterday |
| 14:40 |
sapier |
reverse engeneering == make dev crash and look when that file was last changed in freeminer |
| 14:40 |
sapier |
and that commit isn't all there's andother one exio4 |
| 14:40 |
Exio4 |
yeah |
| 14:41 |
thexyz |
well so what do you want from me/us? |
| 14:41 |
sapier |
wait ... that isn't even the one I found yesterday |
| 14:42 |
sapier |
what I would like from proller and you thexyz is split fixes and feature improvements from freeminer to single reviewable commits ... so enough wishes for christmas, I have to go no |
| 14:42 |
Exio4 |
it gives us enough info to then do this: https://github.com/proller/minetest/compare/null |
| 14:42 |
sapier |
actually https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1070 is all required for a bot to join |
| 14:43 |
thexyz |
ok, fine |
| 14:44 |
thexyz |
to me it always looks like he thinks we have to conform to his standards |
| 14:44 |
Exio4 |
you are both two extremes |
| 14:45 |
Exio4 |
(and my english is shit) |
| 14:46 |
thexyz |
fine |
| 14:46 |
thexyz |
and you don't even code D: |
| 14:47 |
Exio4 |
i don't know the codebase enough for being able to do a lot of shit :P |
| 14:47 |
|
domtron joined #minetest-dev |
| 14:47 |
Exio4 |
the last time i tried to do something irrlicht trolled me with its copy&paste support |
| 14:49 |
thexyz |
do something which doesn't involve irrlicht then |
| 14:49 |
thexyz |
if you want to, of course |
| 14:50 |
Exio4 |
yep |
| 14:59 |
|
bas080 joined #minetest-dev |
| 15:05 |
|
domtron joined #minetest-dev |
| 15:18 |
|
domtron joined #minetest-dev |
| 15:28 |
|
hmmmm joined #minetest-dev |
| 15:29 |
|
Akien joined #minetest-dev |
| 16:09 |
|
Anchakor_ joined #minetest-dev |
| 16:26 |
kahrl_ |
anybody mind me merging https://gist.github.com/kahrl/8106473? |
| 16:27 |
kahrl |
it fixes the win32 bug john_minetest reported |
| 16:28 |
hmmmm |
that looks good |
| 16:30 |
kahrl |
brb, will merge it then when I come back in 15 minutes |
| 16:33 |
|
OldCoder joined #minetest-dev |
| 16:36 |
|
bas080 joined #minetest-dev |
| 16:41 |
|
kaeza joined #minetest-dev |
| 16:50 |
|
diemartin joined #minetest-dev |
| 16:55 |
|
Gethiox joined #minetest-dev |
| 16:59 |
kahrl |
I think testing if (max_fd == -1) would be better than if (max_fd < 0) |
| 16:59 |
kahrl |
can valid windows sockets be negative? |
| 16:59 |
kahrl |
brb in a few hours |
| 17:06 |
OWNSyouAll |
Hey am i doing something wrong i can't get string:split to work http://pastebin.com/fCc2V5jf |
| 17:10 |
thexyz |
use . |
| 17:10 |
thexyz |
instead of : |
| 17:11 |
thexyz |
don't ask those questions here, they're not related to minetest development |
| 17:11 |
|
us_0gb joined #minetest-dev |
| 17:11 |
|
us_0gb joined #minetest-dev |
| 17:14 |
|
sapier joined #minetest-dev |
| 17:16 |
|
domtron joined #minetest-dev |
| 17:18 |
sapier |
thexyz I don't want you to meet "my standards" (which are quite relaxed to standards set e.g. for linux kernel, samba wine ...) I just want there to be defined standards different from "none" |
| 17:18 |
thexyz |
then don't complain |
| 17:19 |
sapier |
you didn't even bother to read did you? |
| 17:19 |
thexyz |
ok |
| 17:19 |
thexyz |
you want there to be standards |
| 17:19 |
sapier |
"defined standards" |
| 17:19 |
thexyz |
you think this isn't true for a particular project |
| 17:19 |
sapier |
AND "different from none" |
| 17:19 |
|
domtron_ joined #minetest-dev |
| 17:20 |
thexyz |
that's fine |
| 17:20 |
thexyz |
what is not fine |
| 17:20 |
sapier |
then start at defining standards instead of argueing about it |
| 17:20 |
thexyz |
is that you try to force stuff like this |
| 17:20 |
sapier |
come one I just want to enforce things I have been told anytime I wanted to merge something |
| 17:21 |
thexyz |
you want to force those on a particular project which you aren't even a part of |
| 17:21 |
sapier |
It's crap to have one standard per person and maybe per personal mood too |
| 17:21 |
thexyz |
I just don't understand this |
| 17:22 |
sapier |
wait I was assuming you intended to merge your development back to minetest by some time (not saying anything about how)? |
| 17:22 |
sapier |
is this assumption wrong? |
| 17:22 |
thexyz |
I've already said: at this point I don't care |
| 17:22 |
thexyz |
yes, this is wrong |
| 17:22 |
thexyz |
is it clear enough now? |
| 17:23 |
sapier |
ok then I'm sorry no need to continue this discussion |
| 17:24 |
thexyz |
great, it didn't took too long |
| 17:26 |
hmmmm |
no, windows sockets cannot be negative |
| 17:27 |
sapier |
joso good to merge hmmmm? |
| 17:27 |
sapier |
-jo |
| 17:27 |
hmmmm |
which piece of code is he talking about exactly |
| 17:28 |
sapier |
https://gist.github.com/kahrl/8106473 this one |
| 17:28 |
sapier |
we should have a pull request to talk about |
| 17:28 |
hmmmm |
ahh |
| 17:32 |
|
ImQ009 joined #minetest-dev |
| 17:32 |
hmmmm |
I would change that to max_fd == -1 |
| 17:32 |
hmmmm |
simply to conform to cURL's own specification |
| 17:33 |
sapier |
you're right about that |
| 17:33 |
hmmmm |
socket descriptors in Windows aren't sequential at all, but in practice they aren't negative either |
| 17:33 |
hmmmm |
that doesn't really matter though because we just follow the spec |
| 17:33 |
sapier |
I don't understand much about windows internals so I have to rely on kahrl's opinion for it |
| 17:34 |
hmmmm |
doesn't matter |
| 17:34 |
sapier |
and of course relying on spec is another option to ... then it's spec's fault ;-) |
| 17:34 |
hmmmm |
you don't need to know anything about windows internals |
| 17:34 |
hmmmm |
it's just following the manpage |
| 17:35 |
iqualfragile_ |
is there some way to tell minetest to stop generating new blocks? |
| 17:35 |
hmmmm |
nope |
| 17:35 |
sapier |
maybe I'm biast specs I usually have to work with are in best case incomplete and sometimes even wrong |
| 17:35 |
hmmmm |
although I can understand the need for such a mechanism |
| 17:35 |
hmmmm |
I was thinking of adding generation limits to emergethread |
| 17:35 |
thexyz |
iqualfragile_: i think you can add allow_generate = false to enqueueBlockEmerge |
| 17:35 |
iqualfragile_ |
ok |
| 17:35 |
hmmmm |
clearly, he means from a configuration option :p |
| 17:36 |
thexyz |
who knows |
| 17:36 |
iqualfragile_ |
yes, i do, but i can just change a litle bit of code |
| 17:36 |
thexyz |
map pre-generation would be nice too |
| 17:36 |
hmmmm |
I was going to do that |
| 17:36 |
thexyz |
so that I can pregenerate my map and then just disable the mapgen |
| 17:36 |
thexyz |
would be really cool |
| 17:37 |
iqualfragile_ |
my usecase was to stop the generation and then remove unused but generated blocks |
| 17:37 |
iqualfragile_ |
so they can be regenerated |
| 17:37 |
thexyz |
since the lock here waits the most time according to my profiler |
| 17:37 |
iqualfragile_ |
when will mapgen v7 be ready, when will differential storage be ready? |
| 17:38 |
thexyz |
differential storage? |
| 17:40 |
sapier |
is differential storage saving diff to what would've been generated only? |
| 17:41 |
iqualfragile_ |
yes |
| 17:41 |
proller |
https://github.com/freeminer/freeminer/commit/575d8c8e71ad15573a8f8b7031d46a523a5ed47d |
| 17:42 |
sapier |
hmm taking this thougth to another level we could skip map generation completely and make client to it |
| 17:42 |
hmmmm |
haha |
| 17:42 |
hmmmm |
you can't do that |
| 17:42 |
sapier |
why not hmmmm? |
| 17:43 |
hmmmm |
it's too complicated in practice |
| 17:43 |
hmmmm |
the mapgen would need to be pixel-perfect between clients |
| 17:43 |
hmmmm |
well, voxel-perfect :) |
| 17:43 |
proller |
and client must run all lua mods |
| 17:44 |
hmmmm |
yep, that too |
| 17:44 |
proller |
it main problem |
| 17:44 |
|
blaaaaargh joined #minetest-dev |
| 17:44 |
hmmmm |
it would be doable with a much simpler version of minetest that lacks a lot of features |
| 17:44 |
sapier |
ok the lua thing is an issue true |
| 17:44 |
hmmmm |
but at that point you might as well make a new game |
| 17:45 |
sapier |
but at least we could skip sending blocks |
| 17:45 |
hmmmm |
also think about all the synchronization |
| 17:45 |
sapier |
assuming it really is node perfect ... what I assume to be |
| 17:45 |
hmmmm |
say like player A is in a far away area from player B and he modifies a node there |
| 17:46 |
sapier |
changes already need to be synchronized no need to do anything more, map is rebuilt as player enters or leaves ... of course this will put just "slightly" more presure to client cpu ;-) |
| 17:46 |
hmmmm |
yeah but think of all the modifications you need to keep track of |
| 17:46 |
sapier |
server gets node modifications, once player enters that block he'll get the delta from server |
| 17:47 |
hmmmm |
alright sorry about that, back |
| 17:47 |
sapier |
but of course I'm by no means sure the complexity is in any relation to the bandwith reduction |
| 17:47 |
hmmmm |
so let's think about this |
| 17:48 |
hmmmm |
each client would store the map on his own |
| 17:48 |
hmmmm |
in terms of deltas |
| 17:48 |
hmmmm |
it'd be quite stupid any other way, so this would combine two big features together |
| 17:48 |
hmmmm |
s/features/improvements/ |
| 17:49 |
sapier |
then you need checksumming for block so client can re-request server delta and rebuild it's block uppon e.g. network split |
| 17:49 |
hmmmm |
so the server is storing the deltas as well? |
| 17:49 |
hmmmm |
er, right, it'd have to |
| 17:49 |
hmmmm |
dumb question |
| 17:49 |
sapier |
I don't se a way how this should work without it |
| 17:50 |
hmmmm |
I'm distracted at the moment |
| 17:51 |
hmmmm |
anyway that would be an interesting idea, p2p minetest |
| 17:52 |
sapier |
but getting that one stable is even more work then fixing the current network code ;-) I don't see map handling beeing broken anywhere close to this to justify the effort ;-) ... but of course if someone is interested in havng fun :-) |
| 17:52 |
hmmmm |
decentralized servers in terms of swarms |
| 17:52 |
hmmmm |
this would require a ridiculous amount of effort and it'd never make it out of the idea stage |
| 17:52 |
hmmmm |
at this point you might as well design a brand new game |
| 17:52 |
sapier |
yes |
| 17:52 |
sapier |
almost |
| 17:53 |
hmmmm |
and I don't know anybody who would want to start a brand new minetest after already working on minetest |
| 17:53 |
sapier |
I don't even have an idea how much time this will be ... btw my guess fixing network code is about a week of work was quite accurate I'm at day 4 now and only doing finetuning |
| 17:54 |
|
domtron_ joined #minetest-dev |
| 17:55 |
hmmmm |
so like, where do you get the time to work on minetest exactly? |
| 17:55 |
sapier |
actually there are rumors about replacing irrlicht, network protocol, packet format, serialization format, map format, formspec ... rough guess this is about 50% of game ;-) |
| 17:55 |
hmmmm |
right now I'm on my vacation and I find myself doing more christmas-y stuff with family instead |
| 17:55 |
|
kaeza joined #minetest-dev |
| 17:55 |
sapier |
I abuse sleep time ;-) |
| 17:55 |
thexyz |
why do we want to replace irrlicht? |
| 17:56 |
hmmmm |
but erm |
| 17:56 |
sapier |
replacing irrlicht by ogre was discussion 3 months ago |
| 17:56 |
hmmmm |
my formspec replacement idea would be quite easily done come to think of it |
| 17:56 |
hmmmm |
it's not like the biggest thing ever |
| 17:57 |
sapier |
I'm a real nerd hmmm I do this as a hobby ... unless I have to repair cars, bake bread/pizza or do the work I get paid for ;-) |
| 17:57 |
hmmmm |
I do this as a hobby too |
| 17:57 |
hmmmm |
but nevermind any of this |
| 17:58 |
hmmmm |
are we going to get a release by tomorrow, you think? |
| 17:58 |
sapier |
well I'm a little bit execessive about hobbys ;-) spend quite a lot time for months and then don't do much about it for months too |
| 17:58 |
hmmmm |
the current master is quite stable right now, only bugfixes the past week or so |
| 17:58 |
sapier |
no idea hmmmm noone actually proclaimed a feature freeze |
| 17:58 |
hmmmm |
I know |
| 17:59 |
sapier |
master doesn't seem to work on freebsd |
| 17:59 |
hmmmm |
announcing a feature freeze is just telling people to not add new stuff formally |
| 17:59 |
hmmmm |
and that's bullshit, it works for me |
| 17:59 |
proller |
broken!11 |
| 18:00 |
sapier |
but I'm not exactly sure proller is really testing master |
| 18:00 |
hmmmm |
well freeminer seems to be broken on Windows with his latest patch that he posted here |
| 18:00 |
proller |
alreasdy fixed |
| 18:00 |
hmmmm |
I noticed in his commit that he pasted here he didn't have any #ifdef _WIN32s or whatever around the uname call |
| 18:01 |
proller |
but minetest still broken |
| 18:01 |
hmmmm |
it's not |
| 18:01 |
proller |
yes. |
| 18:01 |
hmmmm |
it works fine for me here on freebsd 9.2 |
| 18:01 |
hmmmm |
new rule |
| 18:01 |
proller |
with tests ? |
| 18:01 |
hmmmm |
if you're going to say it's "broken", you need to SAY HOW IT'S BROKEN |
| 18:02 |
proller |
i already post here gdbs 4 or 5 times |
| 18:02 |
hmmmm |
what, you're running the unit tests? |
| 18:02 |
proller |
just debug build |
| 18:02 |
hmmmm |
we already know those fail, I had --disable-unittests as the command line for like centuries |
| 18:02 |
proller |
and problem not only in tests |
| 18:03 |
proller |
i canr run game without --disable-unittests, and it crashes everywhere in meny |
| 18:03 |
sapier |
then please post those backtraces, especially if they're not all identical |
| 18:03 |
proller |
menu |
| 18:03 |
hmmmm |
yes, let's see the backtraces |
| 18:03 |
sapier |
and tell precisely what you're doing |
| 18:04 |
sapier |
ok I have to leave no, I'll be back later |
| 18:04 |
|
sapier left #minetest-dev |
| 18:06 |
proller |
try n6: http://paste.org.ru/?4vh8if |
| 18:06 |
hmmmm |
so when you try ctrl+C |
| 18:08 |
proller |
run game and press exit to menu: http://paste.org.ru/?cyvye1 |
| 18:08 |
hmmmm |
okay, yes, I do get a failed assertion when I try to exit via ctrl+c |
| 18:08 |
proller |
and it happen everywhere, in moddb, serverlist, ... |
| 18:08 |
hmmmm |
running the game and exiting to menu does not crash for me |
| 18:09 |
hmmmm |
and the latter is just a backtrace with no error |
| 18:09 |
hmmmm |
so we don't even know what exception is handling in what thread |
| 18:09 |
hmmmm |
s/handling/happening/ |
| 18:10 |
proller |
#0 0x0000000804c3c23c in thr_kill () from /lib/libc.so.7 |
| 18:10 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/0 |
| 18:10 |
proller |
http://paste.org.ru/?p0zzjf |
| 18:11 |
hmmmm |
that last one looks like it's a SIGABRT caused by an unhandled exception |
| 18:11 |
hmmmm |
if you gave the exception text "terminate thrown after receiving exception: blah blah blah" then i'd know what to look for |
| 18:12 |
proller |
always terminate called after throwing an instance of 'SocketException' |
| 18:13 |
hmmmm |
alright |
| 18:13 |
hmmmm |
and this happens when you exit to menu you said? |
| 18:13 |
proller |
yes, to menu, from game, ... |
| 18:14 |
proller |
and when just run with tests |
| 18:14 |
hmmmm |
that last one is a result of the select failing |
| 18:14 |
hmmmm |
as in, result < 0 and errno is not EINTR |
| 18:15 |
hmmmm |
so could you go into your debug.txt and show what it says for "Select failed: "? |
| 18:15 |
proller |
5: Select failed: Bad file descriptor |
| 18:16 |
hmmmm |
alright |
| 18:16 |
hmmmm |
so you have your Connection thread running and it's select()ing on some sockets |
| 18:16 |
hmmmm |
then you press exit to menu which kills the Client thread |
| 18:16 |
hmmmm |
which shuts down that socket |
| 18:17 |
hmmmm |
so then that socket becomes invalid and select() returns from that thread and fails with that error |
| 18:17 |
hmmmm |
this in theory is not specific to FreeBSD at all |
| 18:17 |
|
Miner_48er joined #minetest-dev |
| 18:17 |
proller |
<hmmmm> "it's not" |
| 18:18 |
hmmmm |
it's not broken as in all of these errors happen on shutdown |
| 18:18 |
hmmmm |
the game isn't BROKEN, just some shutdown procedures |
| 18:18 |
hmmmm |
and I don't even get this error that we're talking about... I'm just going by your backtraces |
| 18:19 |
proller |
if player cant exit to menu -> game is broken |
| 18:19 |
hmmmm |
it's a bug that some people get |
| 18:19 |
hmmmm |
I certainly don't get it |
| 18:20 |
hmmmm |
so anyway there's no real good way to fix this, I suggest what you do is just handle if result < 0 && errno == EINVAL |
| 18:20 |
hmmmm |
return false on that instead of throwing a SocketException |
| 18:25 |
hmmmm |
we're discussing errors that happen on shutdown |
| 18:26 |
hmmmm |
yes, not hangups, errors |
| 18:26 |
thexyz |
I think we totally need this http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1618927/cmake-microsoft-visual-studio-and-monolithic-runtimes |
| 18:26 |
thexyz |
some modules randomly switch to /MD |
| 18:32 |
|
domtron joined #minetest-dev |
| 19:04 |
iqualfragile_ |
hmmmm: i have to admid, i did not read the whole discussion, but sapiers idea might actually be doable: before requesting any block the client tries to generate it, hashes it and asks the server if that hash is correct |
| 19:04 |
iqualfragile_ |
if it is it uses that block, if it is not the server sends the whole block |
| 19:11 |
iqualfragile_ |
that would in turn enable the addition of caching later on |
| 19:11 |
proller |
for what? |
| 19:11 |
hmmmm |
erm, that's not what we were talking about at all lmao |
| 19:11 |
hmmmm |
the idea is that the client generates the map, and the server only sends modifications to the clients |
| 19:11 |
hmmmm |
but again, that's crazy and requires a radical redesign |
| 19:11 |
proller |
and where is profit ? |
| 19:12 |
proller |
now block generation not bottleneck |
| 19:13 |
hmmmm |
the idea is to minimize the network bandwidth required |
| 19:13 |
celeron55 |
i recommend KISS |
| 19:13 |
hmmmm |
i know, meshmaking is the actual bottleneck |
| 19:13 |
hmmmm |
we need an algorithmically more efficient method of making meshes |
| 19:13 |
celeron55 |
if map generation is distributed like that, then it becomes waaaay less flexible |
| 19:13 |
celeron55 |
and nobody likes less flexibility |
| 19:14 |
celeron55 |
yes, mesh generation is a good target of optimization |
| 19:15 |
proller |
current bandwith is not a problem |
| 19:15 |
hmmmm |
it sure is when you scale up |
| 19:15 |
proller |
locking everywhere - biggest problem |
| 19:16 |
celeron55 |
hmmmm: so we now became an MMO technology provider? |
| 19:16 |
celeron55 |
good luck with that |
| 19:17 |
proller |
100+ ppl already works in FM |
| 19:17 |
hmmmm |
hey look, this is sapier's idea |
| 19:17 |
hmmmm |
I don't want to move map generation to the client |
| 19:17 |
proller |
500-1000 - possible if break locking |
| 19:17 |
celeron55 |
hmmmm: yes, we don't move it, no matter who suggests it; discussion over |
| 19:17 |
proller |
no problem to host server with 1gbps connection |
| 19:22 |
hmmmm |
hmmm |
| 19:23 |
hmmmm |
once sapier comes back I'll point him to the jsemaphore assertion failure |
| 19:23 |
hmmmm |
but that's not very critical |
| 19:24 |
hmmmm |
any other bugs we should be aware of before 0.4.9? |
| 19:25 |
iqualfragile_ |
hmmmm: yes, there are no christmas trees in the christmas release! |
| 19:25 |
hmmmm |
i don't think the easter egg thing would've worked out any way |
| 19:29 |
hmmmm |
i can't find that one error pastebin with the jsemaphore::wait() assert(blah == 0) |
| 19:29 |
hmmmm |
could you paste that one again proller |
| 19:30 |
proller |
it was caused by what ? |
| 19:30 |
|
Akien joined #minetest-dev |
| 19:30 |
hmmmm |
i don't know |
| 19:34 |
|
domtron joined #minetest-dev |
| 19:34 |
proller |
cant find with assert |
| 19:34 |
hmmmm |
hrmm |
| 19:36 |
proller |
all today was with sockets |
| 19:38 |
hmmmm |
what the hell |
| 19:38 |
hmmmm |
so I'm looking at sfan's playerlist thing |
| 19:38 |
hmmmm |
why does he add a new kind of statistic into a hud element |
| 19:38 |
hmmmm |
no you don't do that |
| 19:38 |
hmmmm |
stop it |
| 19:39 |
hmmmm |
do you see TOCLIENT_HUD_SET_PARAM? |
| 19:39 |
hmmmm |
that's what you use |
| 19:39 |
hmmmm |
TOCLIENT_HUD_CHANGE changes a specific hud element |
| 19:45 |
|
john_minetest joined #minetest-dev |
| 19:47 |
* hmmmm |
blinks |
| 19:48 |
hmmmm |
who devised HUD_PARAM_HOTBAR_ITEMCOUNT? why do you serialize an integer as a binary string and re-read it? |
| 19:48 |
hmmmm |
I turn my back on hud for one second and look at what happens to it |
| 20:03 |
|
domtron joined #minetest-dev |
| 20:04 |
* blaaaaargh |
. |
| 20:22 |
|
domtron joined #minetest-dev |
| 20:37 |
|
proller joined #minetest-dev |
| 20:41 |
|
john_minetest joined #minetest-dev |
| 20:47 |
|
john_minetest joined #minetest-dev |
| 20:50 |
|
rambomedic joined #minetest-dev |
| 20:51 |
rambomedic |
can we merge this already? https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/pull/220 |
| 20:53 |
|
domtron joined #minetest-dev |
| 20:55 |
rambomedic |
PilzAdam: sfan5: celeron55: can we merge this already? https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/pull/220 |
| 21:03 |
|
djdduty joined #minetest-dev |
| 21:04 |
|
john_minetest joined #minetest-dev |
| 21:04 |
|
ImQ009_ joined #minetest-dev |
| 21:06 |
|
ImNotQ009 joined #minetest-dev |
| 21:08 |
us_0gb |
john_minetest: Even the ones that conflict with each other? |
| 21:09 |
hmmmm |
why would you need a core dev to merge with minetest_game? |
| 21:09 |
hmmmm |
minetest_game is not the core |
| 21:11 |
us_0gb |
Hmm. I suppose I should look into compressing the textures in my rewrite as well. |
| 21:12 |
us_0gb |
I plan to rewrite minetest_game as Alternatest_game. It'll use all (most) of the regular textures for familiarity. |
| 21:12 |
us_0gb |
Or compressed versions of them. |
| 21:13 |
us_0gb |
Any of the regular texture that I can find a purpose for. |
| 21:13 |
us_0gb |
*textures |
| 21:15 |
|
EvergreenTree joined #minetest-dev |
| 21:58 |
|
smoke_fumus joined #minetest-dev |
| 22:13 |
|
EvergreenTree joined #minetest-dev |
| 22:19 |
|
domtron joined #minetest-dev |
| 22:20 |
|
sapier1 joined #minetest-dev |
| 22:27 |
sapier1 |
stop stop stop moving mapgen to client was just a game of mind about what could be done not a actual suggestion |
| 22:57 |
|
Akien joined #minetest-dev |
| 23:00 |
|
kaeza joined #minetest-dev |
| 23:02 |
kaeza |
well, it could help if mt_game was managed by more people |
| 23:03 |
kaeza |
but again, changing a simple line always causes holy wars, so meh |
| 23:07 |
sapier |
john_minetest: |
| 23:08 |
sapier |
john_minetest: no you can't show whats loaded right now only what was loaded last |
| 23:10 |
sapier |
actually you don't even know what's loaded right now, only what will be processed next ... yet e.g. if you lost a packet from texture A you could already have texture B C D E F G H J queued while waiting for retransmission of that single lost packet |
| 23:10 |
sapier |
as a matter of fact biggest texture will require most time to load ;-) |
| 23:11 |
kahrl |
why does SHA1::addBytes assert that num > 0, shouldn't it simply be a nop for num == 0? |
| 23:12 |
sapier |
depends on point of view word ... "add" implies you wanted to add something ... but that's a good point for useless discussions too :-) |
| 23:12 |
kahrl |
well apparently some servers send empty files so when ClientMediaDownloader computes the SHA1 of those files, the assert fails |
| 23:12 |
sapier |
imho of you add nothing it's perfectly ok |
| 23:13 |
sapier |
why do you even compute a sha of 0 bytes? it's absolutely nonsense |
| 23:14 |
kahrl |
the sha1 of the empty string is well defined |
| 23:14 |
kahrl |
so why add an extra "if" just to check if size == 0 |
| 23:14 |
sapier |
it's something different if you just add 0 bytes to existing data for sha or compute sha from a total of 0 bytes ;-) |
| 23:15 |
kahrl |
the only way to get data into the SHA1 class is addBytes |
| 23:15 |
sapier |
imho sha of a total of 0 bytes is undefined |
| 23:15 |
kahrl |
nope |
| 23:15 |
kahrl |
that's not a question of "imho" |
| 23:15 |
sapier |
so what's result of 0 bytes? |
| 23:16 |
kahrl |
according to wikipedia: da39a3ee5e6b4b0d3255bfef595601890afd80709 |
| 23:17 |
kahrl |
alternatively: echo -n|sha1sum |
| 23:18 |
sapier |
ok ok ... we don't have du discuss about sha1-ing data < 20 bytes ;-) |
| 23:20 |
sapier |
guess if every other implementation accepts 0 bytes we should do it this way too |
| 23:20 |
kahrl |
*da39a3ee5e6b4b0d3255bfef95601890afd80709 |
| 23:21 |
sapier |
another question is what will happen to those messed up data in other places of core? |
| 23:24 |
kahrl |
what messed up data? |
| 23:32 |
sapier |
I guess all those media with 0 bytes will be in cache with same hash? or is it a send issue only and those data will be dropped anyway? |
| 23:33 |
kahrl |
I don't know why the server sends those files |
| 23:34 |
kahrl |
well, it sends those because they are in some of the media directories I guess |
| 23:34 |
kahrl |
they're probably unused |
| 23:36 |
|
Gethiox joined #minetest-dev |
| 23:36 |
sapier |
I assume we would've seen problems by now if there were any ... yet it may be something to look for by some time |
| 23:41 |
sapier |
can you tell me why this code: "(next_outgoing_seqnum - lowest_unacked_seqnumber) > window_size)" results in compiler warning about comparing signed and unsigned? all of those variables are unsigned |
| 23:48 |
jin_xi |
subtraction result cant go < 0 ? |
| 23:48 |
sapier |
argh ... true ... silly compiler one line above is checked this can't happen ;-) |
