| Time |
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Message |
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| 06:25 |
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| 06:31 |
celeron55 |
hmm |
| 06:32 |
celeron55 |
i will merge 925 on the basis that it's really just an amendment to ShadowNinja's original addition |
| 06:34 |
celeron55 |
also nobody complained about the object duplication fix so i will use my DICTATOR POWERS to merge it |
| 06:45 |
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| 06:54 |
celeron55 |
(offtopic) oh, it's snowing outside 8) |
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| 08:24 |
celeron55 |
my take on what Minetest is and what it does to be exactly that: http://c55.me/blog/?p=1491 |
| 08:31 |
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| 10:32 |
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| 10:41 |
proller |
celeron55, most peoples playing in standard minetest_game |
| 10:42 |
proller |
most peoples want just good minecraft-like game, not space shooter |
| 10:43 |
proller |
and throwing bugfixes because they broke your nonexistent death star physics is strange |
| 10:58 |
celeron55 |
i don't serve "most people", i serve people who share interest in a kind of thing that nobody else is doing |
| 10:59 |
celeron55 |
if you do things based on what "most people want", you aren't getting anywhere and will bore yourself to death |
| 11:12 |
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| 13:11 |
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| 13:26 |
troller |
celeron55, you make game for playing/players or for making game ? |
| 13:32 |
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| 13:41 |
pitriss |
troller: sorry but I agree with celeron, engine shouldn'ŧ limit creativity of game devs. |
| 13:42 |
Exio4 |
you're making mainly the engine, the game is a nice side effect |
| 13:42 |
Exio4 |
my POV ^ |
| 14:02 |
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| 14:04 |
celeron55 |
troller: you can take your side if you want; either be making the engine or be building stuff on it; i recommend both, including understanding that they're different |
| 14:04 |
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| 14:06 |
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| 14:15 |
zat |
Haven’t you thought on changing the name of the game? My GF agrees that the “test†part makes it sound like something incomplete that much people would not even bother downloading. |
| 14:15 |
zat |
...actually, a couple of friends opined exactly the same. |
| 14:17 |
Exio4 |
there were some discussions about that |
| 14:23 |
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| 14:24 |
troller |
minetestcomplete |
| 14:27 |
zat |
what a good nickname eh |
| 14:29 |
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| 14:31 |
VanessaE |
zat, we've been down that road before. |
| 14:31 |
VanessaE |
it did not turn out well. |
| 14:32 |
zat |
I have a better idea |
| 14:32 |
zat |
call it Minedone |
| 14:41 |
VanessaE |
heh |
| 14:42 |
VanessaE |
here's where the subject went last time: https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?id=5800 |
| 14:43 |
NakedFury |
minestrone |
| 14:43 |
VanessaE |
heh |
| 14:44 |
VanessaE |
you trying to suggest minetest has too much spaghetti code? ;) |
| 14:44 |
NakedFury |
and tomato |
| 14:44 |
NakedFury |
who will expect this game to be named after a thick tomato soup |
| 14:44 |
NakedFury |
a yummy delicious soup |
| 14:46 |
NakedFury |
I would love one now |
| 14:46 |
zat |
lets call it blockers, just a game about blocks. |
| 14:46 |
zat |
lol |
| 14:49 |
Exio4 |
"Mesetint" |
| 14:49 |
NakedFury |
Nodesoup |
| 14:49 |
zat |
Meseblocks lol |
| 14:52 |
zat |
Nodejs |
| 14:53 |
Exio4 |
lamefun would be proud of you |
| 14:55 |
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| 14:56 |
zat |
whos her |
| 14:57 |
VanessaE |
anyhow, the name thing is a dead issue. |
| 14:59 |
zat |
who decided that |
| 15:02 |
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| 15:03 |
VanessaE |
it just sorta fell out like that |
| 15:08 |
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| 15:13 |
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| 15:19 |
VanessaE |
[10-17 11:19] <kaeza> I wish there was an option to disallow Guest names |
| 15:20 |
VanessaE |
please? |
| 15:20 |
VanessaE |
most server owners hate these |
| 15:29 |
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| 15:31 |
NakedFury |
guest names? |
| 15:32 |
VanessaE |
* Guest1735 has joined the game |
| 15:32 |
VanessaE |
no. |
| 15:32 |
VanessaE |
get rid of that shit |
| 15:33 |
NakedFury |
ohh perhaps allow server admins to have a list of blacklisted names or words not allowed in names |
| 15:33 |
NakedFury |
server needs more admin tools |
| 15:33 |
proller |
need to make name dialog, and show it if name empty, and remove guest name gen after |
| 15:37 |
Jordach |
just ask peacock - i just happen to have a pastebin to automatically ban those users |
| 15:38 |
Jordach |
http://pastebin.com/2nvTvrLq |
| 15:38 |
VanessaE |
why ban them? |
| 15:38 |
VanessaE |
just give a message, "Sorry, you must choose a name." |
| 15:38 |
VanessaE |
make no references to "Guestxxx" |
| 15:38 |
VanessaE |
otherwise it will seem like guests (as in the noun, not the userid) are not welcome |
| 15:38 |
Jordach |
if NICKBANS[player] or string.match(player,"%d%d(%d+)") then -- or string.match(player,"Guest%d%d%d%d") |
| 15:39 |
Jordach |
see the comment |
| 15:39 |
kaeza |
ideally, the server should deny connection as soon as possible, just like before the commit that added these "guest users" |
| 15:39 |
VanessaE |
yes |
| 15:39 |
VanessaE |
agreed. |
| 15:55 |
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| 16:05 |
celeron55 |
i'm okay with removing the automatically generated names |
| 16:05 |
celeron55 |
it's not like anyone has said anything good about them ever anyway |
| 16:07 |
proller |
but need force users to fill name field |
| 16:07 |
VanessaE |
it's horrible and makes, as you would say, kittens cry. |
| 16:07 |
VanessaE |
every time someone signs on with a Guestxxxx name, somewhere a dog gets skunked :P |
| 16:08 |
celeron55 |
yes, we need to save these kittens |
| 16:12 |
VanessaE |
what, no love for those poor, stinky dogs? ;) |
| 16:15 |
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| 16:17 |
celeron55 |
i'm wondering if the blog post actually makes anything clearer |
| 16:17 |
celeron55 |
probably some, but is it enough at all |
| 16:19 |
VanessaE |
it does to some extent |
| 16:19 |
VanessaE |
at the very least, it outlines the problems. |
| 16:26 |
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| 16:26 |
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| 16:27 |
NakedFury |
maybe instead of Guest##### include an open source random name generator |
| 16:28 |
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| 16:29 |
VanessaE |
hell no |
| 16:29 |
VanessaE |
that's 1000x worse |
| 16:30 |
* Jordach |
agrees |
| 16:32 |
proller |
just dont allow to start connecting without filling name |
| 16:32 |
celeron55 |
that's the KISS solution and will work |
| 16:36 |
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| 16:48 |
proller |
today merge topic: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/952 8) |
| 16:49 |
VanessaE |
question: darkrose's crafting table that adds 4x4 and 5x5 crafting grids. Can we get that added to minetest_game some time soon? Provided it still works, I mean. |
| 16:49 |
VanessaE |
no one uses big recipes like it provides because it's not an core part of the game |
| 16:50 |
VanessaE |
3x3 recipes are starting to get harder and harder to make. I think we need to consider allowing larger ones "by default" |
| 16:50 |
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| 17:00 |
celeron55 |
i want to break this current organization of core devs having the final say on a single main game |
| 17:01 |
celeron55 |
it simply doesn't work |
| 17:01 |
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| 17:03 |
Sokomine |
celeron55: regarding your latest patch: we try your object duplication bug fix on vanessas server, but it will take more time to find out if it really helps. item duplications do not become obvious immediately |
| 17:03 |
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| 17:04 |
VanessaE |
Sokomine: actually I think it worked. |
| 17:04 |
celeron55 |
nobody with their own fork of minetest_game or a completely self-built game hasn't said that they'd like to be in a directly competing position or anything like that... or has someone? |
| 17:04 |
VanessaE |
there are only 63 objects around the spawn now, which is roughly what there should be. |
| 17:05 |
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| 17:05 |
VanessaE |
celeron55: personally, I'm fine with there being just one "main" game, seeing as it's become something of a platform to base other stuff on |
| 17:05 |
VanessaE |
my game is 32MB-odd, but started with minetest_game |
| 17:05 |
VanessaE |
(inb4 it's still as directionless as it ever was. it's improving slowly) |
| 17:08 |
celeron55 |
how did the object count behave previously? like, how many would there be now after the reset if the bug wasn't fixed? |
| 17:08 |
VanessaE |
it used to rise into the mid hundreds after some hours |
| 17:08 |
VanessaE |
perhaps a day or so max |
| 17:09 |
NakedFury |
another thing that makes recipes harder is that currently they are all done in the same grid. we have no specialized grids for types of crafting |
| 17:09 |
VanessaE |
after the reset + bug fix + all normal entities being re-created, 60-odd around the spawn is about right. |
| 17:09 |
VanessaE |
(mostly from signs) |
| 17:10 |
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| 17:11 |
kaeza |
celeron55, AFAIK, mitori's "Dwarves" was once the wannabe competitor of mt_game; dunno if it's widely used or is still developed |
| 17:11 |
VanessaE |
there's always Overcraft Origins, or MiniTest if someone wants a MC-like game on top of the Minetest engine. |
| 17:14 |
kaeza |
there's also PilzTest if you are sadomasochist :P |
| 17:14 |
celeron55 |
so if this is still unclear to someone: i want at least one unique and large game to emerge, preferably with some kind of dictator leadership, ambitious goals and none of this "game design by committee" |
| 17:15 |
celeron55 |
dwarves could be fine, but the developer of that or whatever should either come state their mission here or privately to me or somehow otherwise set up the relationship of the projects |
| 17:17 |
VanessaE |
celeron55: feel free to put vanessae_game in if you want :) |
| 17:17 |
VanessaE |
I keep it actively updated. |
| 17:17 |
celeron55 |
preferably it should have some catch for single-player playing and maybe a different catch for server usage |
| 17:19 |
celeron55 |
VanessaE: give me a marketing speech of it as if i was a random bored person on the internet |
| 17:19 |
VanessaE |
I don't do marketing |
| 17:20 |
VanessaE |
:P |
| 17:20 |
VanessaE |
use it if you want, or not. :) |
| 17:20 |
celeron55 |
lol, should have guessed the response |
| 17:20 |
VanessaE |
translation: I suck at marketing and have the almost-failed business to prove it :) |
| 17:21 |
celeron55 |
marketing is an unremovable part of making something that has a point, though |
| 17:22 |
VanessaE |
yep I know |
| 17:22 |
PilzAdam |
celeron55, pilztest could be what you want; the ideas are 1) only voxel nodes and 2) challenging survival gameplay |
| 17:23 |
PilzAdam |
1) leads it to be rather simple, while still being somewhat creative |
| 17:23 |
Sokomine |
i wouldn't call all these versions diffrent "games" - if it where so, nearly everyone would run a diffrent game. yet the mod collection each server uses does give it some profile and makes servers feel diffrent |
| 17:23 |
PilzAdam |
2) is currently achieved by a non-mc like hunger system, and experimental mobs (basically a stripped down simple mobs version) |
| 17:24 |
celeron55 |
PilzAdam: you're a good core developer though, how is work on pilztest afforded if there's stuff to do in the engine too? |
| 17:24 |
PilzAdam |
I currently lack new ideas how to improve 2), though |
| 17:24 |
celeron55 |
Sokomine: well they kind of do |
| 17:25 |
celeron55 |
Sokomine: it's a sloppy concept but we need some words in order to talk about things |
| 17:25 |
PilzAdam |
hmm... the last few months I had a lot of freetime so I was able to just do what I want |
| 17:26 |
VanessaE |
celeron55: seriously though, the general aim of my game is to give people as much as they can possibly want, to build with. Literally, I'm trying to reach for a truly unlimited craft-and-build game. |
| 17:26 |
VanessaE |
unlimited in terms of what the players can build. |
| 17:27 |
VanessaE |
imho, with the default game there are only just so many cobble, brick, or sandstone houses you can build before it gets repetitive. |
| 17:27 |
celeron55 |
VanessaE: that's much better than your previous try 8) |
| 17:27 |
VanessaE |
I figure people want *details* |
| 17:27 |
VanessaE |
so that's what I try for |
| 17:27 |
PilzAdam |
VanessaE, your game basically sounds like the exact opposite to pilztest |
| 17:28 |
celeron55 |
PilzAdam: how much have you done or planning to do to make mob encounters interesting and fun? |
| 17:28 |
VanessaE |
so far the only negative is that it exposes that fps issue, plus it has so many nodes that it needs that tweak to mapnode.h |
| 17:28 |
VanessaE |
PilzAdam: well yeah I suppose you could say that |
| 17:29 |
PilzAdam |
celeron55, I was inspired by the mobs in Minecraft alpha, though since we dont have that push back effect when you punch something its a bit different |
| 17:30 |
PilzAdam |
mobs currently only spawn in caves, and to kill them you try to get them stuck in a corner |
| 17:31 |
Jordach |
i have had ideas for minetest before: http://sfan5.dyndns.org/upload/userdata/3/Gamemode.svg |
| 17:32 |
PilzAdam |
the mobs also have 100 HP, so the punch_interval system we currently have gets really interesting |
| 17:32 |
PilzAdam |
you can either punch slow, and cause more damage per punch, or punch fast and only cause a bit of damage |
| 17:33 |
PilzAdam |
also its not easy to change the weapon or eat food in the battle, since you only have a 5 slot hotbar and a backpack |
| 17:33 |
VanessaE |
Jordach: I kinda wanted to gear my game toward that idea, actually, but didn't figure a good way to do it. enter, Realtest |
| 17:34 |
Jordach |
VanessaE, i was taking ideas from many JRPGs as well as cyberpunk |
| 17:34 |
celeron55 |
okay so... |
| 17:34 |
celeron55 |
i'm going to say that both of your games have bad names |
| 17:34 |
celeron55 |
8D |
| 17:34 |
Jordach |
lol |
| 17:34 |
PilzAdam |
true, I suck at naming stuff |
| 17:35 |
VanessaE |
mine has no name at all yet :) |
| 17:35 |
Jordach |
Nessie Game? |
| 17:35 |
VanessaE |
detail_test :D |
| 17:35 |
VanessaE |
idk, I never thought to give it a real name |
| 17:35 |
Exio4 |
vanessatest |
| 17:35 |
Jordach |
VanessaE, modern_life |
| 17:35 |
Jordach |
or industrial_life |
| 17:36 |
celeron55 |
well i request you to make it a name, in case it would be included as one game in a minetest release |
| 17:41 |
VanessaE |
thinking about it now. |
| 17:43 |
Sokomine |
vanessa: how about "full_game"? it has almost all mods you can think of |
| 17:43 |
celeron55 |
nope |
| 17:43 |
VanessaE |
naw |
| 17:43 |
Jordach |
we need to stop appending _test to everythingh |
| 17:43 |
Jordach |
-h |
| 17:43 |
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| 17:43 |
Sokomine |
general problem with releasing this type of "game" is that they're usually a mod collection. most mods are hosted on github. how best to supply a download link to players where they can get the latest packages from git? |
| 17:43 |
* VanessaE |
looks at the pizza box on her desk in hopes of finding inspiration :P |
| 17:44 |
Jordach |
VanessaE, industrial_life or modern_life |
| 17:44 |
* Sokomine |
takes the pizza out and eats it |
| 17:44 |
PilzAdam |
celeron55, you are good at naming stuff, suggest something :-) |
| 17:44 |
VanessaE |
industrial, no. modern is at least the right adjective, if not the right nma,e |
| 17:44 |
VanessaE |
name* |
| 17:44 |
Sokomine |
there are mod-collections that may be more industrial_life-centered - just take technic and streets (which are part of vanessas game as well) |
| 17:44 |
Jordach |
...soilnar... |
| 17:45 |
Jordach |
8) |
| 17:45 |
celeron55 |
i've played so little of vanessae's thing and pilztest that i don't really know; but it's probably a good idea to take some cool good but a bit uncommon words like "cityscape" and slap that on the game |
| 17:45 |
VanessaE |
cityscape is close actually. |
| 17:45 |
Sokomine |
how about "minetest unlimited"? |
| 17:45 |
Jordach |
stop with the minetest* related shit |
| 17:45 |
VanessaE |
something implying Metropolis |
| 17:46 |
VanessaE |
(but not the city in Superman) |
| 17:46 |
Jordach |
MetroMines |
| 17:46 |
VanessaE |
Blockopolis_game |
| 17:46 |
celeron55 |
Sokomine: VanessaE's game is about physical content, not about other kinds of content that minetest can potentially do |
| 17:46 |
VanessaE |
:) |
| 17:46 |
celeron55 |
i mean, like... ehm |
| 17:47 |
celeron55 |
i guess i don't know how to explain |
| 17:47 |
VanessaE |
actually you explained it pretty well |
| 17:47 |
Jordach |
again with the _game |
| 17:47 |
VanessaE |
though it goes a bit beyond that |
| 17:47 |
Jordach |
it's pretty fucking damn obvious that it's a game: it appears in the GAME TAB |
| 17:47 |
VanessaE |
Jordach: well, _game is just a suffix, not really part of the name. |
| 17:47 |
celeron55 |
well obviously things aren't just black and white |
| 17:47 |
Jordach |
s/TAB/selector |
| 17:47 |
celeron55 |
but then on the other hand pilztest tries to do as much as it can with as little content as it can |
| 17:48 |
VanessaE |
celeron55: I want players to be able to actually dig for materials, all kinds of them, and actually use all of those materials in some way to build a huge world. |
| 17:48 |
VanessaE |
hm. |
| 17:50 |
Jordach |
VanessaE, NodeCity :P |
| 17:50 |
VanessaE |
um |
| 17:54 |
celeron55 |
pilztest could be called something sillily brutal like "eat X and die" or "punch X and die" where X is a reference to something in the game |
| 17:55 |
rubenwardy |
This all reminds me that I need to work on Capture the Flag :P |
| 17:56 |
rubenwardy |
You know what the obvious choice for a game in minetest upstream is? |
| 17:56 |
rubenwardy |
https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?id=6791 ! |
| 17:57 |
rubenwardy |
!title |
| 17:57 |
kaeza |
... |
| 17:57 |
rubenwardy |
( [Idea][Game]MT2MC - MineTest 2 MineCraft by Ragnar ) |
| 17:58 |
rubenwardy |
[/jokes] |
| 18:00 |
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| 18:01 |
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| 18:02 |
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| 18:04 |
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| 18:05 |
celeron55 |
is there something that somebody thinks needs special attention now if i am going to make a multi-independent-game release happen? |
| 18:07 |
VanessaE |
I can't think of anything. |
| 18:07 |
VanessaE |
let's just not repeat that common/build/survival fiasco ;) |
| 18:07 |
Sokomine |
hmm. in a way...for diffrent versions of the game - connect to diffrent servers? |
| 18:08 |
Sokomine |
...and slowly build up your own collection of mods according to your taste for singleplayer. for players that are not intrested in modding/development, it may be diffrent |
| 18:08 |
celeron55 |
Sokomine: i don't understand |
| 18:09 |
celeron55 |
VanessaE: as i see it, the fiasco was mostly caused by the extreme artificialness of the split, which doesn't work here |
| 18:09 |
VanessaE |
yeah |
| 18:12 |
Sokomine |
celeron: i learned about quite a lot of mods due to servers using them. even though i regulary read the forum |
| 18:12 |
Sokomine |
celeron: in a way, servers are for me slightly diffrent versions of the game. each has its own collection. even outdated versions sometimes |
| 18:13 |
celeron55 |
yes; it's the "minetest 0.4 way", as i call it |
| 18:13 |
celeron55 |
is there a problem? |
| 18:14 |
celeron55 |
or was that just random thoughts |
| 18:15 |
Sokomine |
celeron: there are variations in gameplay, but not that strong. if you're intrested...after a mining tour on vanessas server, my bags (not part of the standard game but common) will be filled to the last slot with cobble, while my inv contains lots of diffrent ores. on the linuxgaming server, that has bones+stacks of cobble up to 300 + less ores, it's inverse: cobble in the inventory, bags mostly empty, ores in bags, one bag ful |
| 18:16 |
Sokomine |
then there's technic...though the inpact of that mod is mostly on economic. if you have technic installed, copper is a precious ore |
| 18:16 |
Sokomine |
in a way just random thoughts and thinking about how usefull diffrent games will be |
| 18:17 |
VanessaE |
^^^ that's if you can play on my server at all :P |
| 18:17 |
celeron55 |
oh, so you're kind of worried about future server diversity? |
| 18:17 |
Sokomine |
not really. i just try to say that the diversity can be found mostly on servers, while singleplayer will perhaps not profit that much from mod collections |
| 18:19 |
celeron55 |
i think there are (and will be) so many different ways to do things and server owners have all the incentives to differentiate from others that they won't stick with what comes with the game |
| 18:21 |
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| 18:22 |
celeron55 |
distributing something more with the game mostly serves as a showcase for those who might be coming in from more traditionally developed games, and those who want to enjoy the results of development without being involved in it at all |
| 18:25 |
celeron55 |
and also serves those who like to play singleplayer |
| 18:25 |
celeron55 |
or on small self-hosted servers |
| 18:26 |
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| 18:26 |
celeron55 |
if everyone has to build up from something as bare as minetest_game, they aren't going to get the most out of minetest |
| 18:28 |
Sokomine |
that's true. the game gets far more intresting if the right mods are added |
| 18:31 |
celeron55 |
i'm kind of terrified of what linux package maintainers are going to do, but that's really their problem... |
| 18:32 |
sfan5 |
split minetest into engine and the games (seperated) |
| 18:32 |
celeron55 |
yeah, they'll probably do that, and then users are like "wtf is this shit" |
| 18:33 |
celeron55 |
well, can't do much about that anyway |
| 18:33 |
NakedFury |
it should be like that |
| 18:33 |
NakedFury |
you dont package the quake clones of linux alone without the game modes |
| 18:33 |
celeron55 |
it won't be a problem in the long run, really |
| 18:33 |
celeron55 |
people probably get used to things |
| 18:34 |
VanessaE |
seems simple to me, minetest (==minetest_game) depends on minetest-common (==minetest engine core) |
| 18:34 |
VanessaE |
sorta like how 0.3.x was packaged |
| 18:34 |
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| 18:35 |
NakedFury |
seems complicated on purpose |
| 18:35 |
celeron55 |
hmm... we should make a recommendation of packaging the engine as "minetest-engine" and not "minetest" |
| 18:35 |
sfan5 |
wasn't 0.3.x packaged as everything-in-one? |
| 18:35 |
NakedFury |
last time I bought or downloaded a game it didnt come only with the engine |
| 18:38 |
celeron55 |
we can hope that it develops to something like that the players will think that they want "pilztest", and by pulling that from the package manager they get the engine too |
| 18:38 |
VanessaE |
ok minetest and minetest-engine then |
| 18:38 |
VanessaE |
works for me,. |
| 18:39 |
celeron55 |
also, we should get rid of minetest_game but i don't know how... probably by just not touching it and making it irrelevant |
| 18:41 |
Jordach |
minetest_game should be kept for legacy purposes: many worlds depend on it |
| 18:41 |
Jordach |
just make sure it works with each iteration of the engine |
| 18:42 |
Sokomine |
minetest_game is currently the common ground upon which they're all based |
| 18:43 |
PilzAdam |
pilztest isnt based on minetest_game |
| 18:45 |
celeron55 |
Sokomine: yes, it's a real danger that mods would unnecessarily become incompatible with different games |
| 18:46 |
celeron55 |
i'm not sure how to prevent that |
| 18:48 |
Sokomine |
almost all mods depend on default for basic materials. changes to default seem to be very important for most players |
| 18:48 |
celeron55 |
...it might not be as large a problem as it would initially seem |
| 18:49 |
celeron55 |
i guess we don't have other options than to base most games that intend to be moddable on "default" |
| 18:49 |
celeron55 |
but it means the addition of things to "default" will stop right now |
| 18:50 |
celeron55 |
it's completely counterproductive to bloat it up so much that no game will want to include it |
| 18:51 |
celeron55 |
arguably it already is too large; but as i said, there are no other options |
| 18:53 |
celeron55 |
at some point a new generation of some kind of "newbase" mods could emerge, but it's not a thing we can care about now |
| 18:54 |
celeron55 |
also, i think that games will naturally use default because they want to be moddable with existing mods, so it *probably* is a self-sustaining system |
| 18:56 |
VanessaE |
ok, unrelated - we have a problem with sign-ons |
| 18:56 |
VanessaE |
I've got users signing on but not being able to sign off |
| 18:56 |
VanessaE |
even banning doesn't get rid of the bogus account |
| 18:58 |
celeron55 |
since when? |
| 18:59 |
VanessaE |
seems like this started this morning. |
| 18:59 |
VanessaE |
I'e got a user here who I just "killed" - but she's been offline for at least a few minutes now. |
| 18:59 |
celeron55 |
i'd like to see some log |
| 18:59 |
VanessaE |
the server even changed her model to the "lying down" one on death |
| 19:00 |
VanessaE |
(which reminds me, the selection box for "lying down" needs fixed) |
| 19:00 |
VanessaE |
ok, log data.. any idea what to filter for? |
| 19:00 |
celeron55 |
it seems to me that this is probably some weird interaction of the duplication patch |
| 19:01 |
celeron55 |
i thought it wouldn't interfere with anything like that but maybe it does (maybe something related to players doesn't behave like i expected) |
| 19:01 |
VanessaE |
shall I back that change out locally and see if it helps? |
| 19:02 |
celeron55 |
well, grep for "ServerEnvironment::" and also get something related to player joins/leaves/disconnects to show up |
| 19:07 |
VanessaE |
http://pastebin.com/uJbVVG39 |
| 19:07 |
VanessaE |
there's an excerpt. There are fucktons of those add and deactivate messages |
| 19:08 |
VanessaE |
meanwhile, the "player" is still showing, at least to my client. |
| 19:08 |
VanessaE |
*signs off and back on* |
| 19:08 |
VanessaE |
the ghost is still there. |
| 19:09 |
VanessaE |
and still "lying down", dead. |
| 19:12 |
VanessaE |
hm, I just realized just how rapidly those messages were pouring in |
| 19:13 |
NakedFury |
is that only on your version? |
| 19:13 |
VanessaE |
eh? |
| 19:13 |
NakedFury |
the sign on/off problem |
| 19:14 |
VanessaE |
it happens to everyone |
| 19:14 |
VanessaE |
twoelk can also see the ghost player, btw |
| 19:31 |
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| 19:32 |
celeron55 |
VanessaE: so can everyone get in after being left dead on the ground? |
| 19:33 |
VanessaE |
celeron55: so far only this one player seems to be affected. |
| 19:33 |
VanessaE |
and she's still there even now |
| 19:34 |
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| 19:36 |
VanessaE |
oops. |
| 19:36 |
VanessaE |
also, Dan was having a similar problem logging in, but that appears to have been a problem local to him. |
| 19:37 |
celeron55 |
can you add "connect" and "List of players" to your grep line? |
| 19:37 |
VanessaE |
meanwhile, my FPS have been going up and down, all over the map, and I haven't moved from this spot for half an hour now |
| 19:37 |
VanessaE |
sure. |
| 19:37 |
celeron55 |
also it seems that nobody is leaving the game in that piece of log |
| 19:38 |
VanessaE |
accounting for that too. hang on a bit while I get the log loaded. |
| 19:38 |
celeron55 |
altough i can't really tell because it just might not show them |
| 19:41 |
celeron55 |
hmm |
| 19:41 |
celeron55 |
the actual point where that exact player bugged would be most useful |
| 19:42 |
VanessaE |
I'm trying to get that now. arguing with gedit. |
| 19:53 |
celeron55 |
gedit seems to be good at arguing |
| 19:53 |
VanessaE |
there, finally found it |
| 19:53 |
VanessaE |
lesse if pastebin barfs on this ;) |
| 19:53 |
VanessaE |
hrrf.. hhrr.... blEHAHHH! :) |
| 19:54 |
VanessaE |
I'll just upload the excerpt :) |
| 19:55 |
VanessaE |
http://digitalaudioconcepts.com/vanessa/hobbies/minetest/login-glitch-1.txt |
| 19:55 |
VanessaE |
from the last what looked like a successful login until when she reported the problem |
| 19:55 |
VanessaE |
(produced by, egrep -i "join|ServerEnvironment::|connect|leaves|left|list of players" /home/minetest/.minetest/debug-survival.txt|gedit - ) |
| 19:57 |
celeron55 |
hmm, it doesn't contain any new errors added by the duplication patch |
| 19:57 |
VanessaE |
<celeron55> oh dog. </celeron55> |
| 19:57 |
VanessaE |
;) |
| 19:57 |
celeron55 |
so if it's because of it, it causes it by working... correctly |
| 19:58 |
VanessaE |
maybe she's just on via another client somewhere and forgot? |
| 19:58 |
VanessaE |
but why can't I ban it off? |
| 20:00 |
celeron55 |
what kind of mechanism does banning use for kicking people out |
| 20:00 |
VanessaE |
no clue :) |
| 20:00 |
VanessaE |
I just use the /ban command, which has always booted the user out right awy |
| 20:00 |
VanessaE |
away* |
| 20:01 |
VanessaE |
/status also shows her/it still being here |
| 20:01 |
celeron55 |
hmm, it works so that the ban is only set, and the ban is only checked when data is received from a client |
| 20:02 |
VanessaE |
that makes some sense: |
| 20:02 |
celeron55 |
so if the client sends absolutely nothing except low-level pings in the minetest protocol, the server can leave it at that state |
| 20:02 |
VanessaE |
when she reported the problem, she signed on with a different nick. when I banned the "right" one, only her secondary nick got booted off |
| 20:03 |
celeron55 |
one guess is that that player has a jammed minetest client process running somewhere, jammed in such a way that the network thread still runs... |
| 20:04 |
celeron55 |
i wouldn't have guessed that this could happen 8) |
| 20:04 |
VanessaE |
lol |
| 20:04 |
VanessaE |
well looks like it can :D |
| 20:05 |
Exio4 |
how the fuck can that network thread still live? |
| 20:05 |
VanessaE |
I'm afraid to restart the server - this is too unique of a study opp :) |
| 20:07 |
celeron55 |
the client is probably accumulating more and more data in it's buffers and at some point (somewhere between days and years) it will fill the computer's RAM and the OS will kill it |
| 20:08 |
celeron55 |
not sure though; but i would assume that the server does send stuff to it |
| 20:08 |
VanessaE |
ah the other client just now left |
| 20:09 |
VanessaE |
the 'stuck' pne |
| 20:09 |
VanessaE |
one* |
| 20:09 |
Exio4 |
reason? |
| 20:09 |
celeron55 |
maybe the computer was shut down |
| 20:09 |
Exio4 |
timeout? |
| 20:09 |
Exio4 |
:P |
| 20:09 |
VanessaE |
Exio4: idk, maybe so, c55. |
| 20:10 |
VanessaE |
http://pastebin.com/9baFxF2i |
| 20:10 |
VanessaE |
last 45 lines leading up to the sign-off |
| 20:10 |
VanessaE |
not that they're of much help |
| 20:11 |
celeron55 |
oh that's cool, it didn't even time out 8) |
| 20:12 |
celeron55 |
hmm |
| 20:13 |
celeron55 |
maybe the client was actually running and it really doesn't send any data to the server if it's not moving? |
| 20:13 |
celeron55 |
that should be relatively easy to test |
| 20:14 |
VanessaE |
hard to say, she was kinda panicky when she reported the problem - "was I banned?", etc. |
| 20:14 |
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| 20:14 |
VanessaE |
wrong server, c55 |
| 20:14 |
VanessaE |
use port 30001 |
| 20:14 |
VanessaE |
:) |
| 20:15 |
celeron55 |
it takes so long to connect i'll probably not try |
| 20:15 |
VanessaE |
sowwy :) |
| 20:16 |
celeron55 |
i bet minetest has collected the most patient people in the universe because of these connection times |
| 20:17 |
Exio4 |
hehe |
| 20:17 |
VanessaE |
lol |
| 20:18 |
celeron55 |
yeah so ban me now |
| 20:18 |
VanessaE |
ok |
| 20:18 |
VanessaE |
you dropped off instantly. |
| 20:22 |
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| 20:22 |
celeron55 |
i need to find a suitable place, then i need to wait and then i'll request a ban again 8) |
| 20:23 |
VanessaE |
sure |
| 20:23 |
VanessaE |
how long's it taking for subsequent connects, btw? |
| 20:24 |
celeron55 |
okay, ban me now |
| 20:25 |
VanessaE |
banned. |
| 20:25 |
celeron55 |
did it work? |
| 20:25 |
VanessaE |
but......youre still here? |
| 20:25 |
celeron55 |
8))) |
| 20:25 |
VanessaE |
dafuq? |
| 20:25 |
VanessaE |
YOU BWOKE IT! :) |
| 20:25 |
celeron55 |
i'm standing still, not moving and waited for until the server had no more blocks to send to the client |
| 20:25 |
celeron55 |
in this situation the client will send nothing to the server at all, ever |
| 20:26 |
celeron55 |
i'll move now |
| 20:26 |
VanessaE |
you're already signed off. |
| 20:26 |
VanessaE |
it just took a bit |
| 20:26 |
celeron55 |
maybe the server decided to send something or whatever |
| 20:27 |
VanessaE |
could be one of the IRC messages floating across was enough to trigger it? |
| 20:27 |
celeron55 |
it's fairly certain it was just some block modification reply |
| 20:28 |
celeron55 |
s/reply/ack/ |
| 20:28 |
VanessaE |
oh ok |
| 20:28 |
VanessaE |
mind trying something? |
| 20:28 |
VanessaE |
(unrelated) |
| 20:28 |
celeron55 |
anyway, this proves that it could have been just a working client standing absolutely still |
| 20:29 |
VanessaE |
yes, possibly so |
| 20:29 |
celeron55 |
dunno; i like to hear requests before agreeing to them |
| 20:30 |
VanessaE |
I just wanted you to sign on and sit there at the spawn for a few minutes |
| 20:30 |
VanessaE |
observe your fps while I sign in and out |
| 20:32 |
celeron55 |
i can't really use this laptop for any fps measurements because this does some fairly aggressive cpu throttling over time making performance drop slowly under load |
| 20:32 |
VanessaE |
trust me |
| 20:32 |
VanessaE |
slower is better in this case |
| 20:32 |
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proller joined #minetest-dev |
| 20:33 |
celeron55 |
whatever, i'm going to need to let this "burn in" first |
| 20:33 |
celeron55 |
also, youtube takes 50% of CPU on this, so that's going to have an effect too 8) |
| 20:33 |
VanessaE |
ok |
| 20:33 |
Exio4 |
celeron55: disable cpufreq! :P |
| 20:33 |
celeron55 |
it isn't used |
| 20:34 |
celeron55 |
oh also, i'm not at spawn; is it necessary to be at spawn? |
| 20:34 |
VanessaE |
no but it helps |
| 20:34 |
VanessaE |
because there is a lot more stuff built-up in that area |
| 20:34 |
VanessaE |
/spawn will get you there. |
| 20:35 |
celeron55 |
well i have 15 FPS at this position at a viewing range of 35 |
| 20:35 |
celeron55 |
now it went to 25 |
| 20:35 |
celeron55 |
and back to 15 |
| 20:35 |
celeron55 |
what the fuck |
| 20:36 |
VanessaE |
uh huh. |
| 20:37 |
celeron55 |
it was at 10 for a long time, then went to 18 |
| 20:37 |
celeron55 |
now it's at 18 constantly 8) |
| 20:37 |
celeron55 |
now around 15 |
| 20:37 |
celeron55 |
11 |
| 20:37 |
VanessaE |
that makes 8 clients connected to my server |
| 20:37 |
celeron55 |
10 |
| 20:38 |
celeron55 |
8 |
| 20:38 |
celeron55 |
7 |
| 20:38 |
celeron55 |
22 |
| 20:38 |
VanessaE |
all running a plain old vanilla client with default 16x textures and nothing fancy |
| 20:38 |
celeron55 |
19 |
| 20:38 |
celeron55 |
this is nonsense, but i don't know if this is just this laptop throttling stuff cyclically or minetest doing something |
| 20:38 |
VanessaE |
(I'm about maxed out on clients, not enough cores left :D |
| 20:38 |
VanessaE |
) |
| 20:38 |
VanessaE |
it isn't you |
| 20:39 |
VanessaE |
this happens to everyone |
| 20:39 |
VanessaE |
at least on mine and Kaeza's servers. |
| 20:39 |
VanessaE |
now here's a test |
| 20:39 |
VanessaE |
press 'i' |
| 20:39 |
VanessaE |
does the screen jitter a lot or flicker? |
| 20:39 |
VanessaE |
just before the menu appears |
| 20:39 |
sfan5 |
VanessaE: that happens when you disable preload item visuals |
| 20:40 |
VanessaE |
sfan5: oh ok, unrelated then. |
| 20:40 |
sfan5 |
because irrlicht renders them to a texture and it sometimes doesn't manage to keep the current screen while rendering |
| 20:40 |
sfan5 |
them = item visuals |
| 20:40 |
VanessaE |
anyway, that's immaterial, I just wanted c55 to see the fps dropout issue first-hand :) |
| 20:41 |
celeron55 |
i didn't see any "FPS dropout" |
| 20:41 |
celeron55 |
i saw wildly varying FPS over like periods of one minute |
| 20:41 |
proller |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/952 - kahrl already looked at c++ code |
| 20:42 |
VanessaE |
you did. those wild changes in fps due to my signing in - this happens to all players, no matter where they are or who is signing in. the time it takes to receive the media to the signing-in client is about how long the fps dropout lasts, sometimes it goes beyond. |
| 20:42 |
VanessaE |
proller: um, offtopic..... |
| 20:42 |
celeron55 |
http://anonmgur.com/up/a9b89bc48d7933e8a79e27d29519732a.png |
| 20:43 |
celeron55 |
nothing visible in chat, huge changes in processing time |
| 20:43 |
celeron55 |
and the mouse didn't move any pixels |
| 20:43 |
VanessaE |
each of my 6 clients are getting 6 to 9 fps, total of around 50-55 fps. |
| 20:45 |
VanessaE |
all 6 are standing at the spawn, doing nothing at all. |
| 20:45 |
VanessaE |
(except one that I just had to walk backward a bit to get out of the way) |
| 20:46 |
celeron55 |
proller: it's fine, let's just let it randomly rot for a while like we're used to! |
| 20:49 |
celeron55 |
well i guess i can merge it |
| 20:49 |
celeron55 |
sorry for anyone who isn't as loud as proller and doesn't get stuff merged because of that |
| 20:49 |
celeron55 |
(you're free to punch proller) |
| 20:49 |
VanessaE |
heh |
| 20:49 |
celeron55 |
(i'm innocent) |
| 20:51 |
celeron55 |
actually, i'll not merge this; you squash it and merge it |
| 20:53 |
* VanessaE |
punches proller for causing her own contributions to be hidden :) |
| 20:54 |
VanessaE |
(the proposed contribution is, https://github.com/VanessaE/homedecor/blob/master/lib_6d.lua -> builtin) |
| 20:57 |
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| 20:57 |
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| 21:02 |
sfan5 |
comments on https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/958 please |
| 21:02 |
sfan5 |
s/comments/opinions/ |
| 21:03 |
VanessaE |
seems innocuous enough |
| 21:05 |
pitriss |
nick completion by tab key would be better.. this can be listed by /status |
| 21:08 |
Exio4 |
it is done in the console |
| 21:09 |
Exio4 |
if someone implements copy-paste support, the super-limited chat could be replaced by the powerful console |
| 21:09 |
Exio4 |
i didn't want to bother with irrlicht, because i can't try it (clipboard support under linux is shit) |
| 21:11 |
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| 21:12 |
sfan5[iPod] |
pitriss: holding tab is much easier than typing /status |
| 21:25 |
pitriss |
yes but.. player i think, player listing is not so rapidly used to have special key.. once per hout is still OK to write one command. and on other hand.. it doesn't look like it will work when console is opened.. |
| 21:26 |
pitriss |
-player i think.. |
| 21:26 |
proller |
VanessaE, this channel is single threaded? |
| 21:27 |
VanessaE |
in a way, yes :) |
| 21:29 |
proller |
sfan5, maybe: if you have teleport priv - player can be clickable(or maybe keyboard-selectable) for teleport to him |
| 21:30 |
proller |
sfan5, and maybe show distance to player |
| 21:39 |
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| 22:16 |
Sokomine |
regarding #958: that would be very fine. not only for those players coming from minecraft, but for all others as well. the /status command has to be known first, and typed, and it is a very long line with all the names mixed. sfan5s display seems fine |
| 22:18 |
Sokomine |
perhaps adding a few keys to which mods could react to would be helpful as well (i.e. steering cars or other vehicles) |
| 22:34 |
VanessaE |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/959 |
| 22:38 |
VanessaE |
(I leave it up to others to decide how best to actually use that code) |
| 22:40 |
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| 23:14 |
Exio4 |
sfan5: make it transparent, ??, profit :P |
| 23:21 |
kaeza |
suddenly: white fonts on white background |
| 23:34 |
Exio4 |
transparent means alpha=192 |
| 23:34 |
Exio4 |
because it looks better that way |
