| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 01:14 |
hmmmm |
ugh i totally understand how sapier felt when doing the formspec menu |
| 01:15 |
hmmmm |
someone should make a VB6-like drag and drop formspec editor |
| 01:16 |
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| 01:20 |
VanessaE |
hmmmm: compounded by having to replicate every last feature of the old C++ menu AND having to rebase about 50 times :) |
| 01:20 |
hmmmm |
i can understand how he made so many screwups with it too. |
| 01:21 |
VanessaE |
I don't know about a drag-and-drop formspec editor, but I definitely remember seeing something that might make it a *little* easier |
| 01:21 |
hmmmm |
thing is, the editor would probably be just as much work.... :/ |
| 01:21 |
VanessaE |
damned if I can remember what it was, some tables-to-formspec format that was 10x easier to read |
| 01:22 |
kaeza |
VanessaE, stress, by thexyz |
| 01:22 |
kaeza |
or a similar concept by sfan |
| 01:23 |
ShadowNinja |
It would be mice if formspecs were tables. You could add a Lua function that converts strings to the table format. Unfourtunately that would probably break the way they are sent over the network, making the reverse(what sfan did) easier. |
| 01:23 |
VanessaE |
http://sfan5.duckdns.org/minetest-formspec-luatable.txt |
| 01:23 |
VanessaE |
that ^^^ |
| 01:23 |
VanessaE |
good call. |
| 01:23 |
hmmmm |
i forget exactly what, but there was a heated argument about all this |
| 01:24 |
hmmmm |
i agree that lua tables are probably the easiest way to represent this data |
| 01:24 |
hmmmm |
the current formspec string format could be used only for serialization |
| 01:24 |
hmmmm |
but an end user should not have to work with this crap |
| 01:24 |
VanessaE |
agreed |
| 01:25 |
kaeza |
could be useful too to simulate e.g. expanders or such controls |
| 01:25 |
VanessaE |
that obscure syntax is why I suck at making formspecs. |
| 01:25 |
proller |
why not serialize to json? |
| 01:25 |
VanessaE |
NO! |
| 01:25 |
hmmmm |
there's the json again |
| 01:25 |
hmmmm |
i predicted it |
| 01:25 |
VanessaE |
jesus, let's just get lamefun in on this (re: everything is HTML5+JS) |
| 01:25 |
proller |
JS != JSON |
| 01:26 |
hmmmm |
well |
| 01:26 |
hmmmm |
if i were doing this all over again from scratch |
| 01:26 |
hmmmm |
i'd do JS for the scripting and XML for the formspec serialization |
| 01:27 |
proller |
why xml? |
| 01:27 |
VanessaE |
proller: I was referencing his undying advocacy for an unwanted language, not the language specifically. |
| 01:27 |
ShadowNinja |
XML is a bit bulky. |
| 01:27 |
hmmmm |
XML is easily compressible, and can represent hierarchies somewhat better |
| 01:27 |
hmmmm |
the tools to work with it might be a little easier as well.... json in syntax might be okay, but libjson is pretty gross |
| 01:28 |
hmmmm |
UIs are inherently heriarchical |
| 01:28 |
proller |
json can represent hierarchies too |
| 01:29 |
proller |
and more unambiguously than xml |
| 01:29 |
ShadowNinja |
JSON isn't all that bad, it is somewhat similar to Lua syntax. |
| 01:29 |
proller |
and json better compressible |
| 01:30 |
ShadowNinja |
s/is/has/ |
| 01:30 |
proller |
and much faster to [de]serialize |
| 01:31 |
ShadowNinja |
Which reminds me that we should have minetest.serialize_json() or similar. |
| 01:31 |
proller |
all languages have similar syntax for data represention |
| 01:31 |
proller |
i prefer perl way ;) |
| 01:31 |
ShadowNinja |
Well, most. |
| 01:33 |
proller |
lua->json - its 1-2 days to work or less |
| 01:33 |
proller |
already have json->lua |
| 01:33 |
ShadowNinja |
Then do it. :-) |
| 01:34 |
ShadowNinja |
parse_json should probably be renamed to deserialize_json for consistency. |
| 01:35 |
PilzAdam |
if you already want to break formspec compatibilty then use Lua tables and BKVL for network |
| 01:35 |
proller |
hmmmm, i'm +1 for js v8 instead lua |
| 01:36 |
hmmmm |
hahahaha |
| 01:36 |
PilzAdam |
we should ban everyone from the core devs who suggest to replace Lua with JS |
| 01:36 |
hmmmm |
i hope you realize that i was speaking hypothetically |
| 01:36 |
proller |
js shit too, but less than lua |
| 01:36 |
hmmmm |
if you want to change to JS, you're better off starting a whole new project |
| 01:37 |
proller |
yes, too hard |
| 01:37 |
VanessaE |
for once I have to agree with PilzAdam |
| 01:38 |
VanessaE |
don't use a new language for formspecs, whatever it may be. either stick with what we have (yuck) or use Lua. |
| 01:38 |
VanessaE |
er Lua tables. |
| 01:40 |
ShadowNinja |
But how should we serialize it to send to clients? The current system is terrible, JSON would probably be best IMO as we don't need annother lib and it may be easier to convert. |
| 01:41 |
PilzAdam |
ShadowNinja, BKVL |
| 01:41 |
proller |
messagepack? |
| 01:42 |
proller |
but for rare transfers json can be good |
| 01:42 |
ShadowNinja |
PilzAdam: Do we have BKVL? Is someone going to actually merge it if not? |
| 01:43 |
proller |
http://msgpack.org/ |
| 01:43 |
PilzAdam |
its on the TODO list for 0.5 |
| 01:43 |
ShadowNinja |
messagepack would be good, but we need another lib. |
| 01:43 |
hmmmm |
so this is what things are looking like so far |
| 01:43 |
hmmmm |
http://picpaste.com/pics/2013-09-17-214118_802x626_scrot-8XHQ0f0M.1379468577.png |
| 01:43 |
hmmmm |
http://picpaste.com/pics/2013-09-17-214131_802x626_scrot-W75CmsNp.1379468596.png |
| 01:43 |
PilzAdam |
and celeron55 already has some basic BKVL implemented |
| 01:43 |
proller |
but whole protocol must be switched to this |
| 01:44 |
proller |
hmmmm, cool! need this for updated math 8) |
| 01:45 |
VanessaE |
hmmmm: nice |
| 01:45 |
PilzAdam |
hmmmm, I would like to see more support for games setting the mapgen |
| 01:45 |
VanessaE |
that's just what we've been needing |
| 01:45 |
hmmmm |
there's plenty of support. |
| 01:46 |
ShadowNinja |
hmmmm: Is there a way to get the water level from a mod? |
| 01:46 |
hmmmm |
yes |
| 01:46 |
PilzAdam |
e.g. I want to set settings that are not overrideable by the user |
| 01:46 |
ShadowNinja |
How? setting_get won't work. |
| 01:47 |
ShadowNinja |
The menu looks good BTW. |
| 01:47 |
PilzAdam |
ShadowNinja, on_mapgen_init() |
| 01:47 |
hmmmm |
ShadowNinja, minetest.register_on_mapgen_init |
| 01:49 |
ShadowNinja |
Alright, because some mods (Like nether) may break if you change that. |
| 01:50 |
hmmmm |
i can break the nether mod if i alias all the nodes to air |
| 01:50 |
hmmmm |
..if you do crazy things with the settings, crazy things will happen... that's the way the world is |
| 01:51 |
ShadowNinja |
If you add a setting to the GUI like that then mods should be prepared for users that change it. |
| 01:52 |
ShadowNinja |
Even if it is just if water_level ~= 1 then minetest.log("error", "This only wouks with a water level of 1") end |
| 01:52 |
ShadowNinja |
works* |
| 02:12 |
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| 02:19 |
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| 02:20 |
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| 02:23 |
thexyz |
VanessaE: I prefer my format, it has more abstraction https://github.com/xyzz/minetest-stress/blob/master/tests/test_formspice.lua |
| 02:24 |
thexyz |
i.e. you don't really need "invsize" element |
| 02:24 |
thexyz |
you don't really need to differ label and vertlabel, it's hard to remember all those names, just add "vertical=true" |
| 02:25 |
thexyz |
sfan5's formspecs is just another way to write string-based formspecs, it's easier, yeah, since you don't need to do escaping and can write arguments in any order but it could be even better |
| 02:54 |
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| 03:11 |
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| 03:50 |
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| 04:56 |
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| 05:42 |
sfan5 |
"PANIC: unprotected error in call to Lua API (bad argument #3 to '?' (table expected, got nil))" what is this? |
| 05:57 |
kahrl |
sfan5: when did it happen? |
| 05:57 |
sfan5 |
some hours ago on my hungergames server while it(hungry_games) was filling the chests |
| 06:19 |
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| 06:19 |
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| 06:52 |
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| 06:53 |
hmmmmm |
i need a hyperlink and an option button element for formspec |
| 06:59 |
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| 07:03 |
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| 07:06 |
hmmmmm |
and there's no way to make a label wider..... great. |
| 07:13 |
hmmmmm |
what do you guys feel about adding a hyperlink formspec element, for windows it'll use ShellExecute and for everything else it'll use xdg-open |
| 07:13 |
hmmmmm |
er how do you do it in Mac? |
| 07:14 |
hmmmmm |
ah, "open" |
| 07:14 |
Jordach |
hmmmmm, people could abuse the hyperlink |
| 07:15 |
hmmmmm |
yeah, of course there should be an option to disable them, and they'll display as plain labels |
| 07:15 |
hmmmmm |
also there shouldn't be any text, just the href |
| 07:16 |
Jordach |
hmmmmm, a server-side disabling of them would be more effective than a client side (people would possibly still click it) |
| 07:17 |
hmmmmm |
http://picpaste.com/pics/2013-09-18-031633_800x600_scrot-fOIgQ3RA.1379488614.png |
| 07:17 |
Jordach |
HOLY FUCK THAT'S AWESOME |
| 07:18 |
Jordach |
no seed entry? |
| 07:18 |
hmmmmm |
that's in the simple settings |
| 07:18 |
Jordach |
ah |
| 07:18 |
Jordach |
didn't see |
| 07:26 |
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| 07:55 |
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| 08:41 |
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| 08:41 |
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| 09:36 |
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| 09:42 |
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| 10:18 |
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| 10:53 |
celeron55 |
>js shit too, but less than lua |
| 10:53 |
celeron55 |
lol, lua is like fixed javascript |
| 10:54 |
celeron55 |
anyway nice that someone cares to work on the UI more 8) |
| 10:54 |
Kray |
js is bretty good |
| 10:54 |
Kray |
5/5 would recommend |
| 10:55 |
celeron55 |
there's no valid reason to think that javascript wouldn't be worse than lua other than if one prefers a C-like syntax |
| 10:56 |
proller |
{} better than begin..end |
| 10:56 |
celeron55 |
javascript has so many design mishaps that cause very obscure errors to happen |
| 10:58 |
celeron55 |
of course it would be a better choice because of availability but anyway, this is the standpoint of the language itself |
| 10:58 |
celeron55 |
+from |
| 10:59 |
celeron55 |
ha someone tried using moonscript for minetest mods? 8) |
| 10:59 |
celeron55 |
+s |
| 10:59 |
celeron55 |
http://moonscript.org/ |
| 11:00 |
proller |
function (function() lalala end) lallaa end |
| 11:02 |
celeron55 |
it could make sense to go even so far as to include moonscript in minetest if people like it |
| 11:06 |
celeron55 |
(it's not C-like though, but does remove the keyword noise of lua) |
| 11:06 |
VanessaE |
heh. writing in js and compiling it to Lua which is then compiled again into whatever you wanna call LuaJIT's output :D |
| 11:07 |
Jordach |
languageception |
| 12:02 |
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| 12:53 |
thexyz |
celeron55: you can't, it uses metatables |
| 12:53 |
thexyz |
and metatables are BAD BAD BAD INSECURE |
| 12:54 |
thexyz |
anyway, mediawiki has a Lua extension |
| 12:55 |
thexyz |
http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Scribunto/Lua_reference_manual#Differences_from_standard_Lua this has some stuff on how they modified setmetatable, getmetatable |
| 12:57 |
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| 13:15 |
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| 13:18 |
celeron55 |
thexyz: sounds like something minetest could possibly do too; dunno |
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| 17:15 |
harrison |
one prefers to have the scripting language == the language that the renderer itself is coded in |
| 17:15 |
harrison |
for minetest this may be impossible |
| 17:16 |
harrison |
but it is still worth thinking about |
| 17:16 |
harrison |
why is it impossible (if it is) ? |
| 17:17 |
harrison |
why the separation of language and scripting language? |
| 17:20 |
Exio4 |
rewrite minetest in java and you'll have the thing that you are saying |
| 17:20 |
hmmmm |
"one prefers to have"? what? who is the "one" you're speaking of? by "one" you mean "you" right? |
| 17:22 |
harrison |
such might be surmised |
| 17:22 |
harrison |
ugh java |
| 17:23 |
harrison |
is the passive voice now deprecated? |
| 17:26 |
hmmmm |
I don't know *anybody* who wants the scripting language to be C++ |
| 17:27 |
harrison |
well, that is not an attractive subjuctive to contemplate, certainly |
| 17:28 |
harrison |
subjunctive |
| 17:31 |
harrison |
but why is this true? is it necessarily true that a system-programming-level language cannot be its own scripting language? |
| 17:31 |
hmmmm |
i dunno, but it's certainly not a #minetest-dev topic |
| 17:53 |
harrison |
i defer to your expertise |
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| 18:22 |
proller |
цфффте ьууукпу |
| 18:22 |
proller |
waaaant meeerge |
| 18:54 |
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| 19:22 |
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| 19:51 |
celeron55 |
is it so that nothing has progressed in terms of getting a wider variety of (larger) trees in the game? |
| 19:51 |
celeron55 |
i don't even remember where that was left off last time; was there some technical issue? |
| 19:59 |
celeron55 |
i would much rather see that progress rather than for example this proller's weather stuff |
| 19:59 |
ShadowNinja |
L-System treespawning uses a older version of the lighting code, which makes bigger trees slow down the mapgen a LOT. I am not sure why, better ask hmmmm. |
| 20:00 |
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| 20:01 |
celeron55 |
a way that works speed-wise is to do trees like pilztest does, but that's a bit hacky (but works extremely well once you just get the trees in the format) |
| 20:08 |
ShadowNinja |
MTS is pretty fast I beleive, I don't know if you can generate good-looking big trees with it though. |
| 20:14 |
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| 20:32 |
PilzAdam |
celeron55, hows that hacky? |
| 20:33 |
ShadowNinja |
I thought MTS was designed with trees in mind. But I don't know why we couldn't just use L-Systems. |
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| 23:45 |
kahrl |
has anybody started working on libmtmap yet? |
